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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Bob Perry

The Four Carbon Cutters project

486 posts in this topic

Rasp, the Ti Autoprop is a great application for 3D printing. It is a complex form with a light resulting solid. If machined you need to start with a big block of very expensive Ti, do a lot of expensive machining on it, turning most of the Ti into chips. With 3D printing, no material is wasted and there would be minimum machining to finish. Won't be cheap either way. 

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Big day tomorrow, at least in my world. Jim Betts will roll hull no. 1 out of the barn so the mast can be stepped. It was out once before but far from  finished. Now it is finished and outside I'll be able to step back a bit and see the boat away from the confines of the shed. I'll be excited on the inside and stoic on the outside. I am really looking forward to tomorrow.

If you are in the area of Anacortes tomorrow at 10am stop on by the Betts yard, 502 34th st. and watch the fun.

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36 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Big day tomorrow, at least in my world. Jim Betts will roll hull no. 1 out of the barn so the mast can be stepped. It was out once before but far from  finished. Now it is finished and outside I'll be able to step back a bit and see the boat away from the confines of the shed. I'll be excited on the inside and stoic on the outside. I am really looking forward to tomorrow.

If you are in the area of Anacortes tomorrow at 10am stop on by the Betts yard, 502 34th st. and watch the fun.

I would sure like to be there tomorrow, but I have a Care Conference for my dad. Have fun! Looking forward to seeing pictures.

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Great:

The boat will be sitting in the yard until launch day. Stop by whenever you can.

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It really has to be an amazing feeling seeing something that you started on paper emerge in complete form.

Heck, I was beyond excited when our old Ranger first rolled out of the shop on its trailer. Like a proud papa. I don't think I pulled off stoic very well :)

RJ

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Hey Bob,   what will be

the 'elapsed time' from when Betts' commenced construction (on the jig) to daylight !

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SYD:

That's not really relevant to no. 1. We are building four boats. We are half way or better through no. 2 and about 25% through no. 3. We have bits and pieces of parts already built for all four boats, struts, bowsprits rudders etc. But if you take all that into consideration its about two years. Had we been building only one boat I suspect we would have launched over 6 months ago.

 

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Beautiful boat.That dimple between the doghouses would not work for me at all, but it certainly has a distinctive look to it, very BCC. I think my wife would like a red one. I'll check with her and get back to you.

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12 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

125

 

 

Very well done.  It looks just like the drawing!

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Ish:

While I like the look of the "dimple" and how it functions at the mast on deck, it does raise hell with the interior. In this case my client wanted it.

Thanks Ed. That was the idea.

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Some people say you don't want to see how the sausage is made...those people are assholes.  Thanks for the boat porn, keep it coming!

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Rum:

I started working in meat markets, i.e. butcher's shops, when I was 10 years old. I have zero problems  seeing how sausage is made. I have made sausage myself. It's fun. Watching this big sausage come together has been one of the real thrills of my career. I have been to the yard at least once a week It has been an education. The Betts yard has been very patient with me. I think Jim may have told them, "Be nice to Bob."

In WWI the Germans stopped making sausage. They needed the cow's intestines to make the bags for the nitrogen in the zeppelins.

 

Raked:

Do you mean outside shots? Like this?

134125140

 

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4 hours ago, kinardly said:

No dragging kelp from that underbody. 

I'm expert at dragging kelp.  I'm certain I could find a way to insert a large clump between the keel and rudder.  Let me try.

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8 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Rum:

I started working in meat markets, i.e. butcher's shops, when I was 10 years old. I have zero problems  seeing how sausage is made. I have made sausage myself. It's fun. Watching this big sausage come together has been one of the real thrills of my career. I have been to the yard at least once a week It has been an education. The Betts yard has been very patient with me. I think Jim may have told them, "Be nice to Bob."

In WWI the Germans stopped making sausage. They needed the cow's intestines to make the bags for the nitrogen in the zeppelins.

 

Raked:

Do you mean outside shots? Like this?

134125140

 

ya outside,

 just w the sun on the topsides, wanted to see the true color in the sun and the pop of the cove stripe...

 your shots of the hull are in the shade. (except the transom in the last one)

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is it wrong to want to see more pics of the boat behind it? 

 

looks so cool bob, but i do have to ask , why he wanted the dimple ?

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bigr:

Client came to me with a print of a Bill Atkin cutter with the "dimple" or split cabin trunk. After to listening to what he wanted I had pulled up an image of Atkin's TALLY HO MAJOR, also with a dimple. That';s the look he liked. It's a very common BCC type feature. Really buggers up the layout.

The boat behind is the Laurie Davidson 50'er CASIOPPEIA. Jim rebuilt it two years ago. Owner took it to Alaska and hit a rock. Needs some repair now.

110

 

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I understand the client wanted the dimple,  but what was his reasoning ?   Granted a client does not need to disclose a thought process,  but I am curious .    I rather like the dimple and know my kids would quickly make a fort out of it .   Off limits to adults.

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In old carvel-planked boats, having unbroken thick deck beams by way of the partners was a major way to keep that area strong. The cabin trunk adds 4 angle joints to that critical area. The simplest solution was to simply to not have cabin trunk there. The knees and floors near the mast(s) were likewise built up in the older boats.

With modern materials and techniques, we can make any part as strong as it needs to be.

I think the most direct answer to Rejected is, "The client thought it looked cool." I doubt he has any of the old-school strength concerns! Not on these brutally strong cutters!

 

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1 hour ago, Somebody Else said:

In old carvel-planked boats, having unbroken thick deck beams by way of the partners was a major way to keep that area strong. The cabin trunk adds 4 angle joints to that critical area. The simplest solution was to simply to not have cabin trunk there. The knees and floors near the mast(s) were likewise built up in the older boats.

With modern materials and techniques, we can make any part as strong as it needs to be.

I think the most direct answer to Rejected is, "The client thought it looked cool." I doubt he has any of the old-school strength concerns! Not on these brutally strong cutters!

 

You nailed it Else. It's just an aesthetic trademark of that historical, BCC, type.

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12 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

bigr:

Client came to me with a print of a Bill Atkin cutter with the "dimple" or split cabin trunk. After to listening to what he wanted I had pulled up an image of Atkin's TALLY HO MAJOR, also with a dimple. That';s the look he liked. It's a very common BCC type feature. Really buggers up the layout.

The boat behind is the Laurie Davidson 50'er CASIOPPEIA. Jim rebuilt it two years ago. Owner took it to Alaska and hit a rock. Needs some repair now.

110

 

thanks buddy , it's a great looking boat.

 

as for the dimple, what my baby wants, my baby gets ! cant wait to see it in the water with the mast stepped.

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Bigr:

When I look at that pic of CASIOPEIA I can't help but think how cool it would look with a well designed pilot house!

 

Mast goes in the cutter on Tuesday. I'll take pics.

 

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On 9/2/2017 at 5:24 AM, Bob Perry said:

bigr:

Client came to me with a print of a Bill Atkin cutter with the "dimple" or split cabin trunk. After to listening to what he wanted I had pulled up an image of Atkin's TALLY HO MAJOR, also with a dimple. That';s the look he liked. It's a very common BCC type feature. Really buggers up the layout.

The boat behind is the Laurie Davidson 50'er CASIOPPEIA. Jim rebuilt it two years ago. Owner took it to Alaska and hit a rock. Needs some repair now.

110

 

more like a laurie davidson 72'er, Bob

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Guys, I hope it is spelled correctly on the boat.  Cassiopeia.  Two s's, one p.  

 

Bob, that boat is awesome.  I wish I was Mr. Lucky.  

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sjmiles:

Thanks. 

 

Cal20:

It's kind of the Hummvee of the sea. I'll let you know how it sails.

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30 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

 

 

Cal20:

It's kind of the Hummvee of the sea. I'll let you know how it sails.

You're talking to someone who drove HumVees.  I used to hide under them in the desert.  I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the performance.  I learned a long time ago, if you're in a hurry, fly.  You designed a boat where getting there will be the fun.  

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On 8/31/2017 at 6:10 PM, Bob Perry said:

134125

058 - Copy038

 

Pretty boat.  What is the thinking behind the dual side opening hatches?  Always liked the fore and aft opening to help catch, direct, or deflect air flow.  Never understood the rationale for side opening but then again I never gave it much thought.  Is it purely an aesthetics thing or does it represent some functional improvement over fore and aft opening that I am missing?

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Wess:

I gave it some thought. Perhaps I would have oriented them differently if this boat was going to spend a lot of time at anchor. But given the client's plan is for these boats to be designed for offshore passages we thought better to orient them this way. It was not an aesthetic call. Ventilation is critical in my view so with the option of six large hatches combined with ten opening ports, Dorade vents and active low profile vents I think we will be well ventilated in a variety of offshore conditions. Never too much ventilation.

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10 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Wess:

I gave it some thought. Perhaps I would have oriented them differently if this boat was going to spend a lot of time at anchor. But given the client's plan is for these boats to be designed for offshore passages we thought better to orient them this way.

That reminded me of a question I never asked - I seem to recall it being said that the point of building four boats was to sprinkle them around the world.

Is that correct? And if so, why concentrate so heavily on ocean crossing ability? Seems contradictory.

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Thanks Sled. I had my concerns while the boat was in the shed/ It's not a planar sheerline. But now I have been able to step back from the boat a bit I am very happy with the sheer. Bit I need to see it in the water before I give it a final grade.

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Jon:

You can't sprinkle boats around the world without first getting them there. But I can't tell you how the boats will be used. You are just going to have to be patient and maybe over time you will learn the intent of the four boats. Maybe not. I have to respect my client's wishes for privacy on this.

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Not sure I will ever see raising a mast this size on a new boat as just another day at the office. Every care has been taken to make sure things fit but shit happens. Found out yesterday that some of the mast wiring had been flipped 180 degs. But that was corrected with some Labor Day effort.

Today everything went very smoothly. I'd say surprisingly so but that's the way you would want it. Men with tools, twisting things, giving each other serious looks. Stick went in, rigging was attached and mast jacks were pumped to 850 PSI for now. We need to fuss with rake once we get the boat launched. We're pretty close now. We will probably need almost a week to finish rigging the boat then it's launch time!

Probably old hat for most of you but exciting for me to see each part of the boat come together.

Left to right: Jacob, Jim, Jarod, Anthony and behind the mast Robert Flowerman aka Mr. Flowers.

037072

 

087

 

The ever present inspector checking to see if Jim got the rake right.

075

 

 

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That is one unique boat!.

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Bob - thank you so much for sharing the progress of this project with all of us...

To a certain extent (a small one), I'm looking at these boats as "mine"...

Cheers!

 

Wes

 

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seems like Ruby prefers the "umpires chair" perspective, I guess she has alot of humans to keep track of when visiting the yard.

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And all that in the eerie gloom of the smoke from the wildfires to the east in the Cascades.

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5 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Thanks Jon.

Soon it will be four unique boats.

Uh, yeah--if you count stripe colors as unique!

LOL, I need more vino.

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is that a deck stepped mast ?   can't tell from the deck pic or the interior pic which seems to have a support tube.    Also is that a park ave boom to avoid  the ugly cruiser rigging?    if so who makes the boom as when i looked they were not offered for small boats.    aluminum or carbon ?

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Reject:

Mast is keel stepped w/ hydraulic jacks. I do not think a deck stepped mast is appropriate for a boat of this type. My thinking is that while deck stepped would certainly work for this boat, in a terminal situation with a keel stepped mast, if the rig came down at sea you would be left with some amount od stick while with a deck stepped mast you would lose everything. This would make effecting a reasonable jury rig more difficult.

Boom is carbon Park Ave V style boom w/ internal reefing.. Entire rig was beautifully built by Offshore Spars.

 

10 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

 

 

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Bob,

Looking real good man! I know I'd definitely stop at the dock and check this beauty out, for a while.

Harken also makes a halyard lock that is tripped open/shut at the top of the mast that is being used on some smaller sportboats such as the C&C 30. The thinking is that it eases unnecessary compression of the mast.

Very interested in how these boats will perform. Did I read on one of the  threads that there will be an aluminum mast among the carbon masts? If so, it'll be interesting for Mr. Lucky to find the differences, both performance and comfort (yaw, pitch etc not only heel and polars). 

Good luck the rest of the way through the build and launch of all four of these gems!!

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Thanks for the photos Bob. In those smoky conditions outdoors, try setting your white balance to take out the yellow cast, no biggie but it is a quick little tweak and your camera guru would be proud.

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Rasper:

Where can I find this "white balance"? I am using auto focus. I gave up on all the knobs and dials. Boomer has deserted me since the election.

One would hope the smoke will go away soon. But unfortunately I suspect not. Probably launch on Monday. I'll go back to the yard on Friday.

If you ever want photos of your project let me know and I'll do my best. I shopwed it to Veeger yesterday. Hope that OK with you. He's a cat guy.

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If you go into your menu and scroll down until you see 'WB' then push that and you should be able to point the camera up fairly close (full frame) to what you know it a white surface and click the shutter the camera will calibrate to a somewhat 'pure white' and take out any color cast and balance the whole image. Justy remember to reset that when you go back inside especially under florescent lights which have a blue cast.  Good Luck.

    Funny about Boomer...

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Rasoper:

More sad than funny. He's a great guy. May have been some peer pressure involved.

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I guess those hard hats they wear do something over the years, Bob. Tough crowd he worked with for a long time. Great photographer, at least you and he have got that going.

Quick primer on White Balance

 

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This may have been asked already...

what are the two mounts on the stern on both sides of the rudder? Are they mounts for an emergency outboard, rudder?

what is the dimple everyone is referring too? 

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Sailsail:

Those brackets are for WattSea hydogenerator units.  One will always be in the water regardless of tack or heel angle.

The "dimple" ( not my term) is the split in the cabin trunk where the mast partners are. This is a styling holdover from the old days when it was considered structurally inadvisable to take the mast through the cabin trunk. Over time it was not a structural issue but it became a styling component of the genetic Bristol Channel Cutter type, It raises hell with the layout but does provide a nice working area around the mast on deck. You can see it in this drawing.

A8_zpsikw1skug.jpg

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Bob, I always meant to tell you before, but I sincerely love the sheerline, the keel profile, the rudder system, and especially the chastity strut.  It's all so correct.

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Thanks Wopper. It does to my eye too. I needed to see the boat outside, where I could stand back a ways before passing judgement on the sheer. But it looks good. Now let's see if it looks as good or better when the boat is in the water. I like a strong sheer spring and I have drawn a lot of the, Don't think I've ever buggered one up.

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15 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Thanks Wopper. It does to my eye too. I needed to see the boat outside, where I could stand back a ways before passing judgement on the sheer. But it looks good. Now let's see if it looks as good or better when the boat is in the water. I like a strong sheer spring and I have drawn a lot of the, Don't think I've ever buggered one up.

well get the damn thing in the water !!! i know , i know ... it's coming.

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Big:

Jim won't commit to a day but I get the feeling that it will be Monday or Tuesday. He has to schedule the Travel Lift. It's messing with my schedule. I'm going to the yard Friday to try and get a better feel for the time. And to look at my boat.

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6 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Big:

Jim won't commit to a day but I get the feeling that it will be Monday or Tuesday. He has to schedule the Travel Lift. It's messing with my schedule. I'm going to the yard Friday to try and get a better feel for the time. And to look at my boat.

nothing a guitar and some pinot can't fix.

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Thanks Bob!

Another question or two.

Are those areas in the keel above the lead, liquid storage tanks? Diesel, water, gray, black? etc/

Why did you go with a sail drive? What are the advantages with this cutter? Would it have been better to put the engine in the keep area and have a shaft? I am sure you have your reasonings I just want to know why.

 

Thank you!

Beautiful boat BTW.

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sailsail:

Yes, those are tanks above the ballast. All tanks are in the keel. We used tanks called Fuel Cells by ATL, custom made to fit the contours of the keel. They are the same tanks used in race cars and some aircraft. Not inexpensive.

I prefer sail drive for a number of reasons. I never considered a shaft, less drag, less vibration, no stuffing box, better efficiency. I like the way I could tuck it behind the trailing edge of the keel. Having had a sail drive in my last boat, trouble free for 15 years I am not scared of sail drives. Can't imagine any advantage to a conventional shaft arrangement.

tank

 

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2 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

sailsail:

Yes, those are tanks above the ballast. All tanks are in the keel. We used tanks called Fuel Cells by ATL, custom made to fit the contours of the keel. They are the same tanks used in race cars and some aircraft. Not inexpensive.

I prefer sail drive for a number of reasons. I never considered a shaft, less drag, less vibration, no stuffing box, better efficiency. I like the way I could tuck it behind the trailing edge of the keel. Having had a sail drive in my last boat, trouble free for 15 years I am not scared of sail drives. Can't imagine any advantage to a conventional shaft arrangement.

tank

 

Interesting.

What are the four tanks from stern to bow?  I'm guessing fuel, potable water, gray water, sewage?

What is that covering on the tank, or is the tank soft? Is there a larger inspection/cleaning port or is it just that one?

 

 

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sailsail:

Tankage is two fuel tanks total 300 gals. 80 gals water and 80 gals holding. I'll double check that.

Those tanks are kind of strange. Go to their web site and do some research. They are sort of soft, kind of like crinkly plastic and the tank is filled with a material that works like a baffle. A bigger inspection port would not do much good. You are not going to reach down inside this tank. I think the original idea behind this tank design was to minimize danger from fire in race car crashes. They are very good if you want to optimize use of a give space.

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That photo is of the actual tank?

I has assumed (!) that the brown was, like, a butcher-paper wrap to protect it while in transit or something...

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Yes, that is the actual tank and yes that brown material is a protective layer that is removed when thank is installed. What you see then is a creamy spongy material. It's not a hard shell. The tanks can be vacuum "deflated" for installation so the fit is tight. I will try to get photos of tanks going in on hull no. 2. It's just a matter of being at the yard on the right day.

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16 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Big:

Jim won't commit to a day but I get the feeling that it will be Monday or Tuesday. He has to schedule the Travel Lift. It's messing with my schedule. I'm going to the yard Friday to try and get a better feel for the time. And to look at my boat.

From experience:  Make sure the travel lift guys put protection on their straps and keep the speed and bouncing down on the road to the launch.  Those cowboys scuffed and smeared a perfect bottom paint job (Baltoplate) on my boat I had in Bett's shop.  

 

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Go Left:

The Travel lift guys put padding on their straps to move the boat out of the barn. Jim's guys were also adding padding to the straps. I have no reason to think the padding won't be there when they launch the boat. I make sure I am present for important operations like that. I will make sure the padding is there. Thanks for the tip.

Notice how padded the crane head was when they stepped the mast.

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2 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Go Left:

The Travel lift guys put padding on their straps to move the boat out of the barn. Jim's guys were also adding padding to the straps. I have no reason to think the padding won't be there when they launch the boat. I make sure I am present for important operations like that. I will make sure the padding is there. Thanks for the tip.

Notice how padded the crane head was when they stepped the mast.

I think it was mostly the heat build-up from bouncing down the long road trip that melted the vinyl-based Baltoplate.  Smeared it into wave patterns.  But I had several layers of build-up so that was a possible factor as well.  

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Bob, I very much enjoy reading your crazy-idea to in-the-water boat development threads. Thanks for sharing them with us.

Potentially  dumb question: how does the sump work in this boat? Is it all the way to the bottom of the tanks? Is there a pump down there? Or is the sole somehow sealed at the top of the tanks?

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Go Left:

We have a very short distance to g for the launch. The only heat build up I expect will be in my pipe as I puff with anticipation.

 

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39 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

We have a very short distance to g for the launch. The only heat build up I expect will be in my pipe as I puff with anticipation.

You slay me!!

I counter with another pipe smoker--something I cobbled together for our large airport as a proposal for new branding:

sea-tac.jpg

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Twister:

That was a tough one. In the end we went with separate sump pumps between each floor. The ballast slugs are all capped with grp. The tanks are not.

I also need to correct a detail spec. The halyard lock system is Antal not Harken.

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I think this boat deserves a Wired or Ars Technica article. Clever design, technical challenges, innovation in a different direction (not speed), replication in production, high tech everything, online sharing of the process.

In concept, it reminds me of one of those epic camper vehicles from Australia, but all custom, no conversion.

Cheers

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Thanks Street. I think maybe it's an acquired taste. Designing just for speed is easy. At least far more simple. This was a complex project. Lots of credit to the Betts team.

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I thought it best to follow my doctor's orders. When Dr. Patel asked me what I did to relax I told her I went to the boat yard. She thought about it for a while then gave me her " what am I going to do with you?" look and said, "You should go to the boatyard more often." So not wanting to let my doctor down I made myself go to the boatyard again today.

Twin hydraulic backstays are on and functioning. Headstay and inner forestay are now on.

Seachest is working and engine is running.

North Sails goody wagon showed up with a pile of goodies.

It rained all morning so stop asking me "when is the boat going to get wet?" It was wet already! I made them wipe it dry when it quit raining. I can't have my boat all wet. Really!

Some people showed up to see the boat. I don't know who they were but I gave them the full tour of the yard. I like doing that. It's a bit like being at a Little league game when your kid hits a home run. "See that? That's my kid. My boy. Mine"

013

 

006028

 

The goody wagon:

037

 

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now, that top pic looks awesome... beauty.

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Ya know, if you need crew to take her out on sea trials ... wait, let me check my calendar ... yup, I'm free that day!

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I'm curious about the twin hydraulic backstays. First, why two? Redundancy?

Second, will they be synch'd together so they get applied and released together?

Wish I could get down to see it go in but......

Maybe for #2 - or 3 or 4 - lots of options there. :D

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On 9/2/2017 at 5:24 AM, Bob Perry said:

The boat behind is the Laurie Davidson 50'er CASIOPPEIA. Jim rebuilt it two years ago. Owner took it to Alaska and hit a rock. Needs some repair now.

How'd they get it back?

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Jon:

Twin backstays is what the client asked for. Yes, they are activated together. We have them at about 1,000 PIS right now.

 

Thanks Keith.

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Bob,

This boat is why they call it yacht design.  It is a piece of art. 

On launching, what do you look for?  My envelope says 5-6" above the lines.  I have learned so much from this thread and hope future customers will let you educate me further.  

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Cal:

Thanks for you kind words. I'm feeling pretty good about it right now. Working hard not to be  a "pretentious douche" as I was called on another site. I'm just a proud Papa.

Well, for me, at this stage, that is the big question. Boat will be launched with tanks half full and sails will be on I suspect, as per weight study. Ground tackle is on. There will be no personal gear or supplies. I've seen no cushions yet. Lbs per inch is 1,770. I'll guess two inches high.  5" to 6" would be a bit much. I allowed for overage in the weight study and I went light, if 13,500 lbs of lead is "light". I was concerned for a while that I went too light. But lots of gear was added as the project proceeded. Jim NBets raised the bootstripe. to compensate without telling me. (builders do that). So both Jim and I have allowed for extra weight. Neil has been monitoring weights. 

2" high. 2.623" without sails and cushions.

 

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16 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

006

 

3 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Jim NBets raised the bootstripe. to compensate without telling me. (builders do that). So both Jim and I have allowed for extra weight. Neil has been monitoring weights. 

2" high. 2.623" without sails and cushions.

Does that explain the two visible boot stripes?  With 1,770 lbs./inch PPI, that looks like a ~20% margin for error? 

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Nope, wrong again Proa. You are good at wrong. That's just a residual tape line marking DWL  for reference during the build.. There has only ever been one bootstripe and thats the one you see.

 

Mr. Longy:

The one dome is obviously radar and the other is Iridium comm radar. With older radar systems you would usually not see them this close together but we have some new fangled "low output" radar system that will not be bothered. It says that in the manual.

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28 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Nope, wrong again Proa. You are good at wrong. That's just a residual tape line marking DWL  for reference during the build.. There has only ever been one bootstripe and thats the one you see.

Not wrong at all, you're just being pedantic.  Will be interesting to see it in the water.

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Nope, wrong again Proa.

I am just being accurate and the best you can up with is "pedantic"?  Let's try again. Read slowly. There were two tape lines, waterlines on the boat during build. One at the 24" AWL and one at the DWL. These were used as reference lines to insure the boat was level as it moved from, building to building. ( You can clearly see the tape in earlier photos.)The lower line  marks the DWL and is left there to help with application of bottom paint.  Bottom paint will come to the top of that line. I know it complicated for you. But just sit back and watch.

tape

 

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Proa = Curmudgeonly white noise.

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39 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Nope, wrong again Proa.

I am just being accurate and the best you can up with is "pedantic"?  Let's try again. Read slowly. There were two tape lines, waterlines on the boat during build. One at the 24" AWL and one at the DWL. These were used as reference lines to insure the boat was level as it moved from, building to building. ( You can clearly see the tape in earlier photos.)The lower line  marks the DWL and is left there to help with application of bottom paint.  Bottom paint will come to the top of that line. I know it complicated for you. But just sit back and watch.

tape

The fact that Jim Betts raised the boot stripe two inches (without telling you!?) says that he believes actual weight is ~10% more than your weight study.  In fact, it appears to be more like 4" above the DWL?

Your nasty habit of ad hominem attacks is pathetically weak, so just fuck off for that, Bob.

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Relax Proa.:

Wrong again. You have this weird habit of being wrong all the time. Why don't you just chill and wait and see.  Take the turd out of your pocket and enjoy life.

You are projecting again. You watch and leave the doing to me.

On a positive note:

I am waiting for Peter and Matthew to show up at my mooring. They have sailed down from Canada. Mathew shows a very strong inclination towards yacht design as I can see in the sketches his Dad sent me. They is sailing  here so Mathew can spend a couple of days with me. I'll put him through the wringer and see what he can do with some of the old tools. Mathew is 11 years old. Wait till he gets his hands on some weights and splines. Should be fun. I'll post a pic or two.

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2 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Relax Proa.:

Wrong again. You have this weir habit of being wrong all the time. Why don't you just chill and wait and see.  Take the turd out of your pocket and enjoy life.

You are projecting again. You watch and leave the doing to me.

Fuck off Bob.  Again.

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

Proa:

You have a marvelous way with words.

I fucketh off not.

Damn, I would love to get you drunk and put you at a computer.  I have known of Bob Perry since I was in my teens (and I'm pretty old) and still can't get how to tack/jibe a proa in my head.  

My envelope calculations were empty tanks and that Mr. Lucky and his guests and all the crap on the boat would add 5K#.  

Please tell me the sails have been delivered so you won't have to wait.  I assume another designer concern is the balance.  

And since you apparently like it, fucketh off Bob. (not sure but it reeks of Monty Python) 

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Cal20:

Yes, sails were delivered Friday while I was at the yard. Main, staysail, Yankee, Genniker and storm jib. My plea for a 140% real genoa fell on deaf ears.

 

Crew weight is already accounted for. Their personal gear is accounted for.  Food and stores are accounted for. It's a weight study.

Balance:

No that 's not a concern for me at all. I have done a lot of cutters I'd guess I have deigned more cutters than any other living designer. But "balance" can be subjective. So for me the question is exactly how well will it balance. I don't want a neutral helm and I don't want a strong weather helm. But you can always find some helm if you need it so I'd rather start with at least a near neutral helm. There are some rules of thumb for balance but they are not reliable. There is no equation to accurately predict balance. I have no doubt I'll be very close and then we can adjust rake until it's perfect.

My primary interest now is the overall feel of the boat. There are no calculations for that either. I need that tiller in my hand and a crew that can trim the sails. Given the talent involved I think the crew will be more than adequate.

 

My other concern is how the bat will behave in reverse. I don't have a calculation for that either. My intent with this rudder config is to avoid the problems of the typical "full keel" boat in reverse. We shall see.

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Please, please tell me you're putting a vang on these boats to stop the boom lifting and making the main look like crap off the wind.

I cruise a Valiant 42 on SF Bay (always windy, of course) with a mate, and I'm trying to convince him that this would be an essential added ingredient.  Just a non-adjustable one, perhaps a piece of 10mm Spectra with eye splices each end, and a lashing one end to adjust it at the beginning of the season.  Boat has a topping lift of course.

Slightly off-topic, Bob, do you know any riggers who offer the bits and pieces for this?

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Wopper:

Yes we have a harken hydraulic boom vang. It's just not on the boat yet. I would never design a boat without one today. My V-40 had a vang.

For your Friend's V-40 get a block and tackle vang with fiddle block and can cleat. Bring the tail back to the aft winches on the house top. Wonlt hold the boom u but vangs are to hold the boom down.

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