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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Bob Perry

The Four Carbon Cutters project

544 posts in this topic

45 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Wopper:

Yes we have a harken hydraulic boom vang. It's just not on the boat yet. I would never design a boat without one today. My V-40 had a vang.

For your Friend's V-40 get a block and tackle vang with fiddle block and can cleat. Bring the tail back to the aft winches on the house top. Wonlt hold the boom u but vangs are to hold the boom down.

All good. Well done on the hydraulic vang, also good to hold the boom up as you say.

Thanks for the response, especially right now.  But.....  IMHO, of course... A simple vang "preventer" is all that's needed on a cruising boat, really.  No need to adjust it.  Just to prevent excess "up-ness"

We had one on both booms on the Dominic Presles 100 foot ketch Marama.  No hydraulics anywhere.  Main backstay has a huge turnbuckle, and it was wound right down all the time.  And we pushed that old bus pretty hard.  You can just see the vang strops in this pic:

marama5.jpg

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Just now, Rasputin22 said:

Wow! What a beast!

Yes, very, VERY French.  No paint anywhere, just bare alloy.  Essentially a stretched IOR maxi, but with a nominal accommodation.   Some charterers liked that.  Again, very French.

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14 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

Yes, very, VERY French.  No paint anywhere, just bare alloy.  Essentially a stretched IOR maxi, but with a nominal accommodation.   Some charterers liked that.  Again, very French.

Awesome boat!!  And way fewer crew than the two and a half dozen on a J-Boat, with far fewer strings to pull, arguably....

 

EDIT.  But that's the French, compared to WE the Seppo-Yankees...

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3 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

My primary interest now is the overall feel of the boat. There are no calculations for that either. I need that tiller in my hand and a crew that can trim the sails. Given the talent involved I think the crew will be more than adequate.

And if she feels the way you hope, what's it going to take to wipe the grin off your face?  I think your dog (forgot her name) should go on the maiden sail, she's been a part of this from the start.  

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5 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Cal20:

Yes, sails were delivered Friday while I was at the yard. Main, staysail, Yankee, Genniker and storm jib. My plea for a 140% real genoa fell on deaf ears.

...

3DI?

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2 hours ago, P_Wop said:

All good. Well done on the hydraulic vang, also good to hold the boom up as you say.

Thanks for the response, especially right now.  But.....  IMHO, of course... A simple vang "preventer" is all that's needed on a cruising boat, really.  No need to adjust it.  Just to prevent excess "up-ness"

We had one on both booms on the Dominic Presles 100 foot ketch Marama.  No hydraulics anywhere.  Main backstay has a huge turnbuckle, and it was wound right down all the time.  And we pushed that old bus pretty hard.  You can just see the vang strops in this pic:

marama5.jpg

Ok, that merits an official timeout.

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This kid walked int my office last night. His Dad brought him to me for some "guidance". The kid looks around at the 60 half models I have on the walls and points to one. "Is that ICON?" Well, of course it ws ICON. Matt, the kid, is 11 years old! I have him now hand drafting a set of hull lines for a 30'er. He's using a drafting machine from the 1940's and spline weights and splines from the 60's. He can get all the computer training he wants later. Kids love splines and weights. It will be an interesting day. He just pointed to the drafting machine and said, "That thing is really cool."

Matt

 

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22 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Proa:

You have a marvelous way with words.

I fucketh off not.

 

Didn't Big Julie say that to Cassius ?

 

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18 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

For your Friend's V-40 get a block and tackle vang with fiddle block and can cleat. Bring the tail back to the aft winches on the house top. Wonlt hold the boom u but vangs are to hold the boom down.

We use a pretty simple vang/preventer on our V40, which we also used to have in San Francisco Bay.  It is a simple 4:1 purchase connected a bit aft of mid boom and anchored to a dedicated pad eye near the rail just aft of the chainplates.  We don't use any cams on this rig, just brought the tail back to a cleat on the outboard vertical surface aft of the primary winch.  Very easy to set, and makes gybes easily controlled, albeit slow, even when single handling.  

Before the s#!!& comes in ... yes, we use an end-boom preventer when running deep and offshore.

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Keep paying it forward Bob, it's always a good thing...

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

This kid walked int my office last night. His Dad brought him to me for some "guidance". The kid looks around at the 60 half models I have on the walls and points to one. "Is that ICON?" Well, of course it ws ICON. Matt, the kid, is 11 years old! I have him now hand drafting a set of hull lines for a 30'er. He's using a drafting machine from the 1940's and spline weights and splines from the 60's. He can get all the computer training he wants later. Kids love splines and weights. It will be an interesting day. He just pointed to the drafting machine and said, "That thing is really cool."

Matt

 

Excellent teaching the good ol' fashioned way. In the roof truss business I started before computers were widely used. Later on the young guys who never handled a hammer or drew a truss by hand had no clue other than what the computer told them. Lots of bad truss sets I had to get fixed. The prettier and detailed the cad drawings, the worse the trusses were.

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Bob, computers are like the the vapid high school cheerleader, wonderful to play with but you have to go slow and explain your jokes.  That being said, my new proa was lofted and faired on a computer and it is very accurate +-1/2 mm.  Remember those old tables of offsets ' " 1/8".  She was drawn in France and Emailed to me, the luddite.  Aloha, Guerdon.

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Guerdon:

I offer kids the chance to try hand drafted hull lines. I tell them they will never need to know how to do it. But, I have yet to have a student turn down the chance.

 

mattdraw

 

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53 minutes ago, savoir said:

 

Vegemite = brain food

 

They put brains in that stuff? That explains a lot.

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That kid would have had a double serve before starting work.

 

It shows.

 

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On 9/8/2017 at 7:30 PM, Bob Perry said:

Jon:

Twin backstays is what the client asked for. Yes, they are activated together. We have them at about 1,000 PIS right now.

 

Thanks Keith.

Are the split backs for a square top main? Awesome boat, can't wait to see it with sails up.

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9 hours ago, JoeBleaux said:

Are the split backs for a square top main? Awesome boat, can't wait to see it with sails up.

I doubt it, main reason is to keep the centre of the transom clear.

Two smaller backstays can be cheaper than a single larger backstay, a large pulley and bridle. 

That's on boats that don't adjust the backstay anyway 

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On 9/9/2017 at 5:41 PM, Bob Perry said:

Cal20:

Yes, sails were delivered Friday while I was at the yard. Main, staysail, Yankee, Genniker and storm jib. My plea for a 140% real genoa fell on deaf ears.

 

 

My other concern is how the bat will behave in reverse. I don't have a calculation for that either. My intent with this rudder config is to avoid the problems of the typical "full keel" boat in reverse. We shall see.

I've dated many a girl who got would have gotten that 140 with just a look. I suspect that if you smile just a little "off" when Mr Lucky says "So what do you think ,Bob?" and look at Flowerman with a certain "does it feel a little sluggish" look you might get one quick. If I were the money behind the project, I'd get one just to make everyone happy...except Proa of course! I think you've aptly named him

               Wrong Again Proa! 

 

The boat in reverse will perform well with that opening. I'm used to full keel boats myself...

Completely fun to watch this flourish

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Mezaire is partially correct, I think the client wanted double backstays because he felt the redundancy was safer. Allows for double antenna. But with the outboard rudder we did need to open up the stern. I suppose we could have jammed a single backstay close to centerline but will all that's going on back there it would have been a clutter. Doubles gave us position and antenna options. More things to grab when taking a leak of the stern.

But as with so many of the features on this boat the final answer to why is "because the client wanted it".

Going to yard tomorrow. Hope to get a feel for the launch day. But it's far easier to finish details while the boat is at the yard rather than at the dock.  Haven't tried the big charging system yet.

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I was thinking about the outboard rudder and the comment that it was "less efficient".

I recall a Dick Carter boat RED ROOSTER with an outboard rudder. Fastnet winner.

I recall a Gary Mull boat IMPROBABLE, so many wins pointless to list them.

If those are the measure of an outboard rudder then, I'm good to go with mine.

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Consider the Flying Dutchman with a transom rudder and the Tempest which had a similar hull shape (and a small keel) with a spade rudder. I know it is not apples to oranges but I don't think the transom rudder slowed the FD down any...

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9 hours ago, mezaire said:

I doubt it, main reason is to keep the centre of the transom clear.

Two smaller backstays can be cheaper than a single larger backstay, a large pulley and bridle. 

That's on boats that don't adjust the backstay anyway 

I get keeping the transom clear, but I was thinking these guys aren't too worried about the cost of a larger backstay at this point...:D

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Those boats shur are perty. 

how much are they

If I have to ask, I cannot afford.

 

 

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Joe:

Right, it had nothing to do with cost. In fact considering twin backstays requires twin chainplate I doubt going with twins saves any money at all.

 

brane:

Given this is a time and materials four boat project the cost of the first boat is abit hard to determine right now but I'd say $1,000,000 would be a good place to start. I doubt we would build one for anyone else with the redundancy of systems you see in no. 1.

 

Name:

Some one asked about a name. I did not know a the time and I do now. It's anti climactic. I was expecting a series of four related names, i.e. John, Paul, George and Ringo being my fav. But it seems not. I'll reveal the name after launch. I think you will go,. "Oh."

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north east west south

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Sav:

If you knew the client you'd know that those names were never in the running. But it's funny to think of him naming them that.

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9 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Sav:

If you knew the client you'd know that those names were never in the running. But it's funny to think of him naming them that.

Then I guess Groucho, Chico, Harpo, and Zeppo are right out

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Boats are female and the cutters are a bit retro, so obviously, Dorothy, Rose, Blanche, and Sophia.  

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2 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Sav:

If you knew the client you'd know that those names were never in the running. But it's funny to think of him naming them that.

 

Yeah, but what a great conversation starter.

 

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Cal:

I never bought into that "all boats are female" thing. When I see a Foss tug plowing down the bay I sure as heel don't think, :Isn't she beautiful." I don't assign gender to boats. It just seems contrived, affected. It's a boat damn it. Stop trying to anthropomorphize it.

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Lassie, Rin Tin Tin, Joan Rivers and Joan Rivers.

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Posted (edited)

I forgot Old Yeller, or however you spell it. So I'll take off one Joan and add Ole Yella.

 

See below.

Edited by Ishmael
Or Trigger. Yeah, skip Joan entirely and add a horse.

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But those are all dogs.  Which this boat will not be. 

Here in SD, "Harbor Sailboats" has a fleet of Capri 22's named Alpha, Baker, Charlie, Delta...

p21.jpg

 

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I'm going to the yard tomorrow, I'm like the guy pacing in the maternity ward waiting room. Maybe the name has been painted on.

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Yawn..... been there done that.

;)

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Jon:

I assure you I will enjoy every stage of the build of each of the four boats. Each build will have new elements.  If it bores you, don't watch.

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2 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Snagger:

I'll do my best to see it doesn't.

Thast my Bob.  Thack you.      :)   

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Been a couple of years since I bulkheaded and decked a boat. I like to see it on a big scale 

Still waiting to see what color stripe is going down the sides between the tape lines;)

I know they couldn't be level lines...

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For those tired of the Tuck Andress videos

 

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22 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

IMG_5684.JPG

Rover, my first dog

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screw the name, lets see the mofo in the water already .

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What flavor of goop does Betts use on the hull/deck joint?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Longy:

There is no hull to deck joint. That's the beauty of this style of build. Not uncommon with high quality custom yachts.

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3 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Jon:

I assure you I will enjoy every stage of the build of each of the four boats. Each build will have new elements.  If it bores you, don't watch.

It wont - hence the wink emoticon.

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3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

For those tired of the Tuck Andress videos

 

 

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53 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Longy:

There is no hull to deck joint. That's the beauty of this style of build. Not uncommon with high quality custom yachts.

OK. Semantics. When the deck is lowered onto the hull (pictures in your post 444) how wide is the mating flange and how are the two pieces joined? Plexus, carbon tape,  or some combination?

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Longy:

 I knew you knew that.

To start with, this detail is a bit different than most CF boats because we have a 6" high bulwark. Keep that in mind. It complicates things.

The interior panels are all in the boat before the deck goes on, bhds, and lockers. There is no flange. The deck sits down on the bhds and other joinery panes that go to the deck head. This has all been trimmed and made ready in previous fits of the deck, probably at least three.

Deck sits down on the bhds and partitions and is bonded top and bottom to hull with layers of CF.

Then a second layer of 1" Corecell is added inside the bulwark to build up bulwark thickness to over 2". This additional core layer is then wrapped over the top of the bulwark onto the outside of the hull, down about 6" and the down the inside of the bulwark onto the deck about 4".

It's all epoxy and CF. I'll see if I have a photo that shows this.

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Jon:

Unfortunately I'm not really sensitive or even aware of the emoticons. I should have caught that. It was out of character for you to be bored.

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Bob _- Thanks for details. I knew most of what you described, from past experience & yer pictures, just curious as to specifics. But I havent been involved with a truly custom boat since the IOR days.

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Longy:

Yeah, it's a bit unusual in that area due to the 6" bulwark. That required a little different approach to the CF chainplates too.

We are launching tomorrow at 2pm.

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Make sure your camera is fully charged.

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Good idea Jon. Many thanks. I do carry two cameras so I always have a backup. Boomer made sure of that. He'll be there.

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42 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

We are launching tomorrow at 2pm.

Woo-hoo! (yes, take that camera…. please….)

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Anom:

We will have at least one drone and Boomer may bring his too. Neil Rabinowitz will also be ther. There will be no shortage of photographers.

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I dunno - those cutters give me a choba.

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Boat is now in the water. We need to get the rest of the gear aboard before I take any freeboards. I think we will be close to designed weight. Too many people aboard yesterday to get a good feel for flotation. I have a drone video and Boomer and Neil Rabinowitz took photos. I took a few. My big concern was whether the boat would back up under power with good control and the answer is YES!

005

 

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We did a drive by Saturday morning while in Anacortes on business. Would have been nice to see close up but no one was around.

Sure looks like it's going to be a powerful rig.

And it looks even better than the photos.

Well done Bob.

 

 

IMG_20170916_111318784~2.jpg

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Nice pic, thank you for posting it.

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The doghouse doesn't do it for me. It's ok, but needs to be woodlined. I like them, when they stand out. Looking at it, there's no real wood there, so minimal maintenance isy guess... buyers choice. Other than that, the lines are wonderful. The lines are wonderful. The rig is huge for a boat that size me thinks. I hope these 4 boats don't sail together, it would take some of the awe about it out. 

 

Edit:

I'm an admirer of the classics, which is why I cling to a tartan 30. And frankly, so I'd Bob. It doesn't mean much, but the fact that Bob and I like the same lines on a boat says something to me. It's artistic rather than numbers. 

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42 minutes ago, plenamar said:

Wow! Tall rig !

It is a very adequate rig, but the angle of that photo makes it look taller in relation to the LOA.

Remember: these boats carry a whole lot of ballast down low. They are stiff!

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4 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

It is a very adequate rig, but the angle of that photo makes it look taller in relation to the LOA.

Remember: these boats carry a whole lot of ballast down low. They are stiff!

Gonna be even stiffer after they add enough ballast in the bow to correct the trim.:o

 

Boomer_vid_2-40.thumb.jpg.cbde0f5ac22355f616e51807dddb3f70.jpg

Boomer_vid_2-42.thumb.jpg.a5b3dfbd35e9e761b34073349a37d36b.jpg

Boomer_vid_2-53.thumb.jpg.3e87f2f6ef651f0b2a504992a274b314.jpg

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Overlay, ready for some action!

Excitable boy they all said! 

IMG_5749.JPG

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5 hours ago, overlay said:

Gonna be even stiffer after they add enough ballast in the bow to correct the trim.:o

 

Boomer_vid_2-40.thumb.jpg.cbde0f5ac22355f616e51807dddb3f70.jpg

Boomer_vid_2-42.thumb.jpg.a5b3dfbd35e9e761b34073349a37d36b.jpg

Boomer_vid_2-53.thumb.jpg.3e87f2f6ef651f0b2a504992a274b314.jpg

If you look at the previous pic taken at the dock there is around 4" of antifouling showing on the rudder.

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14 hours ago, See Level said:

We did a drive by Saturday morning while in Anacortes on business. Would have been nice to see close up but no one was around.

Sure looks like it's going to be a powerful rig.

And it looks even better than the photos.

Well done Bob.

 

 

IMG_20170916_111318784~2.jpg

This is the pic with a clear shot of antifouling on the rudder

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13 hours ago, the_abandoned_brane said:

I'm an admirer of the classics, which is why I cling to a tartan 30. 

The Tartan 30 remains a favorite.  I sailed on one in the mid 70s and we always left dock thinking we could win.  Stern dumps were a problem.  F'ing reverse transom.  

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You cant post that it is sitting perfectly on its lines, some will be upset

Looks beautiful, can't wait to see it sailing

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Thanks Mr. Goat.

It doesn't matter what I post. Someone is always upset. I guess I was lucky. My dear old Dad taught me how to make a fist. "Tuck your thumb in!"

good 3

 

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15 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

As of this morning. Sails go on tomorrow. We are extremely close to designed displ. Within an RCH.

is that an industry standard term?

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5 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Ryley:

Yes. Except in China where we use a CCH.

 

well, sure. you've got to use the tools available.

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Those hairs are mighty thin down there. Boat must be on its lines!

 

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Beer:

We are spot on aft. As Jim would says, "dead nuts on". But I need one more measurement to verify the bow freeboard. Measurements taken yesterday at the stem were to deck fitting eyes and that does not work for me with a lines drawing. There you are getting into the WMCH tolerance level. That won't do.

(WM Woolly Mammoth)

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15 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

As of this morning. Sails go on tomorrow. We are extremely close to designed displ. Within an RCH.

good

 

 

8e5ee32ae93f066c9c300e76238a8406--lucy-lucy-sofia-vergara.jpg

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Rasper: Yes, they painted the boat when the rudder was not on. I suppose someone could have looked at the drawings but at that stage it was a full court press. I have pointed that out to the yard and we will fix that on No. 2. Not sure they will fix it on no. 1. It does through the eye off when you are leveling the boat. You just go by the bottom paint.

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She looks good to me, a little room left for when the tanks and gear are filled, no matter what size hairs we are considering.

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21 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

good

 

Is it just me or does that boat seem to be down about an inch by the bow?

 

 

 

;)

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