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Shortforbob

So..How do WE stop it?

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As individuals?

 

Warning. Graphic pictures of bloodied children.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-20/syria-doctors-shocked-by-shock-over-everyday-injured-child-photo/7768884

"So whether you live in Australia or whether you live in United States, you have a responsibility to end this crisis"

I am shocked by the shock'

The doctors inside Aleppo and their colleagues supporting them outside are still wrapping their heads around the way Omran's picture went viral.

"These pictures we are seeing dozens of them everyday. Frankly … I am shocked by the shock," said Dr Zaher Sahloul, chair of the Syrian American Medical Society (SAMS), a US-based NGO that helps fund the doctors inside besieged Aleppo.

He runs the WhatsApp messaging group and has seen this phenomenon before. He said it never lasts.

"We have seen many pictures in this Syria crisis that went viral, as they say," he said.

"Pictures of the children in Madaya who starved to death, [the] picture of Aylan Kurdi who drowned in the [Mediterranean].

"Our reaction in general is we look at these pictures. We tweet about them, we retweet, maybe we write a blog or something.

"We cry, and then we move on and turn away from Syria."

Dr Sahloul said Syrian children are "not dolls to cry over and then move on".

He said if you were upset by the video, then do something about it.

"What is happening in Syria is the worst humanitarian crisis in our lifetime collectively," he said.

"So whether you live in Australia or whether you live in United States, you have a responsibility to end this crisis

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The strikes are conducted by Asad and russia..Should we actually put pressure on them to halt this slaughter have an amnesty and let Daesh move out of Aleppo peacefully ..take them on elsewhere.. at another time and place? Given the chance, many of them might just go home.

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It won't..but it will stop the ordinary people trapped in Aleppo being slaughtered in the meantime

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The strikes are conducted by Asad and russia..

 

so the attrocities were ok before Russia entered the war?

how deluded are you?

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The strikes are conducted by Asad and russia..

 

so the attrocities were ok before Russia entered the war?

how deluded are you?

 

N8dFs5m.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The lack of action "makes me want to cry," he adds.

John Hilary is the executive director of War On Want, a global justice organization and an outspoken critic of "poverty porn" — using images of the poor to solicit charitable donations. Like Kashi, he doesn't put too much stock in the photographs of Kurdi or Daqneesh.

"Images on their own can provoke feelings and awareness, but they can't give you the sort of political understanding and analysis that you need to respond properly," he says.

Hilary says it's tough for the public to translate what they're seeing into real solutions.

"It's very unclear to people as to which strings they can pull to make a difference," he says. "That's the most profound difficulty of this image. There isn't an obvious mechanism through which we can turn our anger and compassion into change."

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pictures of dead children does not answer the question.

yeah. they get to you. every time.

you are a literate woman. read up on how the public was convinced Gulf War 1 was necessary.

let me help you with what you are looking for: Iraqui Soldiers allegedly rampaging a childrens hospital.

children have been dying in Syria since day one of the conflict.

it did not get suddenly worse when Russia entered the war.

crying foul now is hypcrit.

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Children die in wars everyday.

Aleppo is a siege situation,,they can't get out.

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Aleppo is under siege since the war started 4 years ago.

what is the difference to Homs?

or Kobane?

why now?

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because enough is enough. I think people were expecting for this to end long ago.

Why are you diverting the topic?

 

Is it more entertaining for you to divert the thread into an armchair debate?

The topic is how do we stop it.

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You can't stop it and our current actions aren't helping in Syria any more than they did anywhere else.

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it was an armchair debate the moment you started it.

"we" as in you and me can do nothing about it.

"we" as in your and my country (or the US for that matter) are already involved in the conflict and so far that had let to more escalation and no end in sight.

 

now is enough?

because the Kurds are getting to powerfull which is a problem for our friend in Turkey?

because Assads torture prisons are no longer used for our renditions but for his opposition?

because Saudi Arabia is loosing his proxy, IS if it continues?

this is a proxy war.

our proxy war.

 

launching the pictures of dead children now, in that excess, serves an agenda.

and you are falling for it Mel.

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We just need to spend more money.

 

I'm not sure whether it should be in bombs or bandaids so, obviously, we need to spend more on both.

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it was an armchair debate the moment you started it.

"we" as in you and me can do nothing about it.

"we" as in your and my country (or the US for that matter) are already involved in the conflict and so far that had let to more escalation and no end in sight.

 

now is enough?

because the Kurds are getting to powerfull which is a problem for our friend in Turkey?

because Assads torture prisons are no longer used for our renditions but for his opposition?

because Saudi Arabia is loosing his proxy, IS if it continues?

this is a proxy war.

our proxy war.

 

launching the pictures of dead children now, in that excess, serves an agenda.

and you are falling for it Mel.

Wq52Lvf.jpg

 

Syrian Rebels Cautiously Welcome Proposal Of Weekly Ceasefire In Aleppo The pause in fighting is intended to allow aid to reach besieged areas.
Siege warfare is in clear breach of the UN law. Whats the point of the UN if they can't stop this?
Nato and the UN could quite easily provide a protective air patrol over Aleppo or any other besieged city if they wanted to.
Do we have blue helmet air support?

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What could we possibly do from the western world? Get the heck outta there.

 

Wikipedia:

The Battle of Aleppo (Arabic: معركة حلب‎‎) is an ongoing military confrontation in Aleppo, the largest city in Syria, between the Free Syrian Army, Islamic Front, People's Defence Units and Sunni militants against the Syrian government, Hezbollah and Shiite militants.[13]..

 

The list of belligerents in the area is at least 5 different groups. What could we from the west do?

 

They are creating their own tragedy. Us getting involved only gives them a focus for blame. West needs to get out.

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What could we possibly do from the western world? Get the heck outta there.

 

Wikipedia:

The Battle of Aleppo (Arabic: معركة حلب‎‎) is an ongoing military confrontation in Aleppo, the largest city in Syria, between the Free Syrian Army, Islamic Front, People's Defence Units and Sunni militants against the Syrian government, Hezbollah and Shiite militants.[13]..

 

The list of belligerents in the area is at least 5 different groups. What could we from the west do?

 

They are creating their own tragedy. Us getting involved only gives them a focus for blame. West needs to get out.

The west needs to provide secure passage for non combatants..Then the rest of them can play paintball till their hearts content.

Shame about the inevitable destruction of the worlds oldest continuously inhabited city..but boys will be boys..

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18 August 2016 – The United Nations envoy for Syria abruptly suspended the regular international humanitarian taskforce meeting in Geneva today shortly after it started, saying it made “no sense” to continue unless there is a pause in the fighting so aid convoys could reach besieged areas of the war-ravaged country.

“I decided to use my privilege as Chair to declare that there was no sense in having a humanitarian meeting today unless we got some action on the humanitarian side in Syria,” UN Special Envoy for Syria Staffan de Mistura told reporters in Geneva, following a meeting of no more than eight minutes, co-chaired by Russia and the United States.

The taskforces for humanitarian aid and a cessation of hostilities, created by the International Syria Support Group (ISSG) which comprises the UN, the Arab League, the European Union and 16 other countries, have been meeting separately since early this year on a way forward on the Syrian crisis.

Mr. de Mistura said that not a single humanitarian convoy so far reached any of the besieged areas in August due to fighting, and it has been 110 days since aid last reached Madaya, Zabadani, Foah and Kafraya, the besieged areas under the ‘Four Towns Agreement.’

The UN envoy also made, on behalf of the Secretary-General, a strong appeal for a pause of at least 48 hours in fighting in order to deliver UN humanitarian aid to the whole city of Aleppo – a pause that has become ever more urgent as the horrific images emerging from the ground attest to.

Mr. de Mistura also noted that he was scheduled to attend a meeting of the cessation of hostilities taskforce later in the day to discuss the truce.

“Tomorrow is World Humanitarian Day, and in Syria what we are hearing and seeing is only fighting, offensives, counter-offensives, rockets, barrel bombs, mortars, hellfire cannons, napalm, chlorine, snippers, airstrikes, suicide bombers,” he stressed.

UN Special Envoy for Syria, Staffan de Mistura, briefs reporters in Geneva. Credit: UN News Centre

Further explaining why he adjourned the humanitarian taskforce meeting, he said that it was to give a chance to prove that these meetings are indeed, as they have been in the past, meaningful for the Syrian people. He also said it was to display “respect” towards the World Humanitarian Day tomorrow and signal “deep unhappiness” about the lack of a pause that is preventing humanitarian aid from reaching anywhere in Syria, except Deir ez-Zor, where the World Food Programme (WFP) has conducted airdrops 100 times.

Responding to questions, Mr. de Mistura said Russia and the US have “a genuine intention of finding a non-military solution, but a 48-hour pause in Aleppo would require “some heavy lifting” from not only the two co-chairs, but from those who have influence on fighting on the ground.

The UN envoy said the humanitarian taskforce will meet next week.

Later in the day, a UN spokesperson in New York noted that Mr. de Mistura had since received communication from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, stating its readiness to support his proposal of a 48-hour humanitarian pause in Aleppo.

According to a press note, the Special Envoy welcomed Russia’s statement, and the UN humanitarian team is now set to mobilize itself to respond to this challenge, as stated recently by UN Emergency Relief Coordinator Stephen O’Brien. The plan is to collectively work out the operational details, and be ready for delivery as soon as possible.

Further, the note says that the UN counts on Russia to deliver its part, regarding, in particular, the adherence of the Syrian armed forces to the pause, once it comes into effect. The Organization further counts on all those with access to or influence on the armed opposition, in particular the US, as ISSG co-chair, as well as other relevant ISSG members, to ensure that the armed opposition also respects the 48-hours humanitarian pause.

 

I ask you..what's the point of a "humanitarian pause" unless they can get people OUT!

Who cares if a few rebels sneak out with them?

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What could we possibly do from the western world? Get the heck outta there.

 

Wikipedia:

The Battle of Aleppo (Arabic: معركة حلب‎‎) is an ongoing military confrontation in Aleppo, the largest city in Syria, between the Free Syrian Army, Islamic Front, People's Defence Units and Sunni militants against the Syrian government, Hezbollah and Shiite militants.[13]..

 

The list of belligerents in the area is at least 5 different groups. What could we from the west do?

 

They are creating their own tragedy. Us getting involved only gives them a focus for blame. West needs to get out.

The west needs to provide secure passage for non combatants..Then the rest of them can play paintball till their hearts content.

Shame about the inevitable destruction of the worlds oldest continuously inhabited city..but boys will be boys..

No, the west doesn't need to do anything except vacate the area.

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Could always stop supporting the rebels and then the war can end quickly.

so you want to support Hezbollah?

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What could we possibly do from the western world? Get the heck outta there.

Wikipedia:

The Battle of Aleppo (Arabic: معركة حلب‎‎) is an ongoing military confrontation in Aleppo, the largest city in Syria, between the Free Syrian Army, Islamic Front, People's Defence Units and Sunni militants against the Syrian government, Hezbollah and Shiite militants.[13]..

The list of belligerents in the area is at least 5 different groups. What could we from the west do?

They are creating their own tragedy. Us getting involved only gives them a focus for blame. West needs to get out.

The west needs to provide secure passage for non combatants..Then the rest of them can play paintball till their hearts content.

Shame about the inevitable destruction of the worlds oldest continuously inhabited city..but boys will be boys..

No, the west doesn't need to do anything except vacate the area.
+1.

 

None of our business

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What could we possibly do from the western world? Get the heck outta there.

Wikipedia:

The Battle of Aleppo (Arabic: معركة حلب‎‎) is an ongoing military confrontation in Aleppo, the largest city in Syria, between the Free Syrian Army, Islamic Front, People's Defence Units and Sunni militants against the Syrian government, Hezbollah and Shiite militants.[13]..

The list of belligerents in the area is at least 5 different groups. What could we from the west do?

They are creating their own tragedy. Us getting involved only gives them a focus for blame. West needs to get out.

The west needs to provide secure passage for non combatants..Then the rest of them can play paintball till their hearts content.

Shame about the inevitable destruction of the worlds oldest continuously inhabited city..but boys will be boys..

No, the west doesn't need to do anything except vacate the area.
+1.

 

None of our business

 

Sorry, I meant the UN.

And kick Turkey out of NATO if they don't behave.

presure non syrian combatants to get out and leave it to syria?? Totally agree..but give those that want to leave safe passage out.,,,temporary refuge all over the world..pftt whats a few million spread out.

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It a way can be found to enrich a relative handful of people in the US by saving those kids, I would expect a swift and thorough media campaign to convince us that we must fix this problem, while forgetting any role that enriching that same handful of people has played in fomenting the lack of stability in the region.

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Could always stop supporting the rebels and then the war can end quickly.

so you want to support Hezbollah?

 

So maintain the Russian access to sell product? Why is your US millitary folks there, in the first place?

 

 

To support the post WW I interventions of the Europeans.

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What could we possibly do from the western world? Get the heck outta there.

Wikipedia:

The Battle of Aleppo (Arabic: معركة حلب‎‎) is an ongoing military confrontation in Aleppo, the largest city in Syria, between the Free Syrian Army, Islamic Front, People's Defence Units and Sunni militants against the Syrian government, Hezbollah and Shiite militants.[13]..

The list of belligerents in the area is at least 5 different groups. What could we from the west do?

They are creating their own tragedy. Us getting involved only gives them a focus for blame. West needs to get out.

 

The west needs to provide secure passage for non combatants..Then the rest of them can play paintball till their hearts content.

Shame about the inevitable destruction of the worlds oldest continuously inhabited city..but boys will be boys..

Passage to where???

Not the US, we have plenty of goat fucking third world scum already, thank you.

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Poor Meli saw a picture, now she has a case of the vapors.

 

Sweetie pie, this has been going on for 4 years.

Have some laudanum and get ahold of yourself

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As individuals?

 

Warning. Graphic pictures of bloodied children.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-20/syria-doctors-shocked-by-shock-over-everyday-injured-child-photo/7768884

"So whether you live in Australia or whether you live in United States, you have a responsibility to end this crisis"

I am shocked by the shock'

The doctors inside Aleppo and their colleagues supporting them outside are still wrapping their heads around the way Omran's picture went viral.

"These pictures we are seeing dozens of them everyday. Frankly … I am shocked by the shock," said Dr Zaher Sahloul, chair of the Syrian American Medical Society (SAMS), a US-based NGO that helps fund the doctors inside besieged Aleppo.

He runs the WhatsApp messaging group and has seen this phenomenon before. He said it never lasts.

"We have seen many pictures in this Syria crisis that went viral, as they say," he said.

"Pictures of the children in Madaya who starved to death, [the] picture of Aylan Kurdi who drowned in the [Mediterranean].

"Our reaction in general is we look at these pictures. We tweet about them, we retweet, maybe we write a blog or something.

"We cry, and then we move on and turn away from Syria."

Dr Sahloul said Syrian children are "not dolls to cry over and then move on".

He said if you were upset by the video, then do something about it.

"What is happening in Syria is the worst humanitarian crisis in our lifetime collectively," he said.

"So whether you live in Australia or whether you live in United States, you have a responsibility to end this crisis

 

Hyperbole. He is old enough to have seen Cambodia, Somalia, Algeria, various points west in Africa. It's not the worst of his lifetime even. I can sympathize with his pain but war is a mess which requires more than blind reactions and soft hearts. He must chose which side of this war he prefers to win to have any credibility, speaking for myself.

 

For me, at minimum, he must show a hard heart towards whoever it is he wants us to kill for credibility on policy. No mealy mouthing around about "doing something", he must name the people he wants us to kill for him just to sit at that table. He will not like the siege of Damascus, trust me.

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As individuals?

 

Warning. Graphic pictures of bloodied children.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-20/syria-doctors-shocked-by-shock-over-everyday-injured-child-photo/7768884

"So whether you live in Australia or whether you live in United States, you have a responsibility to end this crisis"

I am shocked by the shock'

The doctors inside Aleppo and their colleagues supporting them outside are still wrapping their heads around the way Omran's picture went viral.

"These pictures we are seeing dozens of them everyday. Frankly … I am shocked by the shock," said Dr Zaher Sahloul, chair of the Syrian American Medical Society (SAMS), a US-based NGO that helps fund the doctors inside besieged Aleppo.

He runs the WhatsApp messaging group and has seen this phenomenon before. He said it never lasts.

"We have seen many pictures in this Syria crisis that went viral, as they say," he said.

"Pictures of the children in Madaya who starved to death, [the] picture of Aylan Kurdi who drowned in the [Mediterranean].

"Our reaction in general is we look at these pictures. We tweet about them, we retweet, maybe we write a blog or something.

"We cry, and then we move on and turn away from Syria."

Dr Sahloul said Syrian children are "not dolls to cry over and then move on".

He said if you were upset by the video, then do something about it.

"What is happening in Syria is the worst humanitarian crisis in our lifetime collectively," he said.

"So whether you live in Australia or whether you live in United States, you have a responsibility to end this crisis

 

Hyperbole. He is old enough to have seen Cambodia, Somalia, Algeria, various points west in Africa. It's not the worst of his lifetime even. I can sympathize with his pain but war is a mess which requires more than blind reactions and soft hearts. He must chose which side of this war he prefers to win to have any credibility, speaking for myself.

 

For me, at minimum, he must show a hard heart towards whoever it is he wants us to kill for credibility on policy. No mealy mouthing around about "doing something", he must name the people he wants us to kill for him just to sit at that table. He will not like the siege of Damascus, trust me.

 

He's a Doctor..Doctors dont care which side wins...nice deflection attempt.

MSF treat both/all sides...bless their bravery and ethics

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As individuals?

 

Warning. Graphic pictures of bloodied children.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-20/syria-doctors-shocked-by-shock-over-everyday-injured-child-photo/7768884

"So whether you live in Australia or whether you live in United States, you have a responsibility to end this crisis"

I am shocked by the shock'

The doctors inside Aleppo and their colleagues supporting them outside are still wrapping their heads around the way Omran's picture went viral.

"These pictures we are seeing dozens of them everyday. Frankly … I am shocked by the shock," said Dr Zaher Sahloul, chair of the Syrian American Medical Society (SAMS), a US-based NGO that helps fund the doctors inside besieged Aleppo.

He runs the WhatsApp messaging group and has seen this phenomenon before. He said it never lasts.

"We have seen many pictures in this Syria crisis that went viral, as they say," he said.

"Pictures of the children in Madaya who starved to death, [the] picture of Aylan Kurdi who drowned in the [Mediterranean].

"Our reaction in general is we look at these pictures. We tweet about them, we retweet, maybe we write a blog or something.

 

"We cry, and then we move on and turn away from Syria."

 

Dr Sahloul said Syrian children are "not dolls to cry over and then move on".

He said if you were upset by the video, then do something about it.

"What is happening in Syria is the worst humanitarian crisis in our lifetime collectively," he said.

"So whether you live in Australia or whether you live in United States, you have a responsibility to end this crisis

 

Hyperbole. He is old enough to have seen Cambodia, Somalia, Algeria, various points west in Africa. It's not the worst of his lifetime even. I can sympathize with his pain but war is a mess which requires more than blind reactions and soft hearts. He must chose which side of this war he prefers to win to have any credibility, speaking for myself.

 

For me, at minimum, he must show a hard heart towards whoever it is he wants us to kill for credibility on policy. No mealy mouthing around about "doing something", he must name the people he wants us to kill for him just to sit at that table. He will not like the siege of Damascus, trust me.

He's a Doctor..Doctors dont care which side wins...nice deflection attempt.

MSF treat both/all sides...bless their bravery and ethics

NGS is a doctor

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There are two realistic solutions that could stop the fighting quickly.

 

1) The US sides with Assad/Russia. This means turning our back on the Saudis and propping up Assad. The war would end, some eastern partitioning would occur, but there would be an existential crisis with Saudi Arabia and possibly Turkey. My guess is they'd both back down and there would be peace for a little while.

 

2) The Americans side with the Saudis and launch a full scale invasion of Damascus, disposing Assad. The Russians are told they can keep their base if they stay out of it. This could, quite realistically, provoke a shooting war with Russia. Putin wouldn't back down but it wouldn't escalate to 'world war' scale.

 

That's the two quick ways to end the fighting. Both may provoke a wider conflict.

 

If you're goal is to end the fighting, then to me, the most realistic solution is to prop up Assad.

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Nah, my goal is to get the non combatants out of Aleppo..I'll leave stopping the war to "the men"

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There are two realistic solutions that could stop the fighting quickly.

 

1) The US sides with Assad/Russia. This means turning our back on the Saudis and propping up Assad. The war would end, some eastern partitioning would occur, but there would be an existential crisis with Saudi Arabia and possibly Turkey. My guess is they'd both back down and there would be peace for a little while.

 

2) The Americans side with the Saudis and launch a full scale invasion of Damascus, disposing Assad. The Russians are told they can keep their base if they stay out of it. This could, quite realistically, provoke a shooting war with Russia. Putin wouldn't back down but it wouldn't escalate to 'world war' scale.

 

That's the two quick ways to end the fighting. Both may provoke a wider conflict.

 

If you're goal is to end the fighting, then to me, the most realistic solution is to prop up Assad.

 

Option 3.

 

You stupid fuckers can kill as many of each others a you like.

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Nah, my goal is to get the non combatants out of Aleppo..I'll leave stopping the war to "the men"

Lets send them to austrailia

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As individuals?

 

Warning. Graphic pictures of bloodied children.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-20/syria-doctors-shocked-by-shock-over-everyday-injured-child-photo/7768884

"So whether you live in Australia or whether you live in United States, you have a responsibility to end this crisis"

I am shocked by the shock'

The doctors inside Aleppo and their colleagues supporting them outside are still wrapping their heads around the way Omran's picture went viral.

"These pictures we are seeing dozens of them everyday. Frankly … I am shocked by the shock," said Dr Zaher Sahloul, chair of the Syrian American Medical Society (SAMS), a US-based NGO that helps fund the doctors inside besieged Aleppo.

He runs the WhatsApp messaging group and has seen this phenomenon before. He said it never lasts.

"We have seen many pictures in this Syria crisis that went viral, as they say," he said.

"Pictures of the children in Madaya who starved to death, [the] picture of Aylan Kurdi who drowned in the [Mediterranean].

"Our reaction in general is we look at these pictures. We tweet about them, we retweet, maybe we write a blog or something.

"We cry, and then we move on and turn away from Syria."

Dr Sahloul said Syrian children are "not dolls to cry over and then move on".

He said if you were upset by the video, then do something about it.

"What is happening in Syria is the worst humanitarian crisis in our lifetime collectively," he said.

"So whether you live in Australia or whether you live in United States, you have a responsibility to end this crisis

 

Hyperbole. He is old enough to have seen Cambodia, Somalia, Algeria, various points west in Africa. It's not the worst of his lifetime even. I can sympathize with his pain but war is a mess which requires more than blind reactions and soft hearts. He must chose which side of this war he prefers to win to have any credibility, speaking for myself.

 

For me, at minimum, he must show a hard heart towards whoever it is he wants us to kill for credibility on policy. No mealy mouthing around about "doing something", he must name the people he wants us to kill for him just to sit at that table. He will not like the siege of Damascus, trust me.

 

He's a Doctor..Doctors dont care which side wins...nice deflection attempt.

MSF treat both/all sides...bless their bravery and ethics

 

 

Responding to someone demanding something be done by asking what it is that may be is a deflection in your mind, perhaps, but I beg to differ.

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The Rwandan Genocide killed maybe up to 1 million people. That didn't get your panties in a bunch?

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The Rwandan Genocide killed maybe up to 1 million people. That didn't get your panties in a bunch?

once again..were talking a siege situation in Aleppo..one city..not a whole country.

And of course it did.

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I agree countries should sort out their own dictators.

But..seeing as this war now has so many fingers in it, it's not going to have a good outcome for the ordinary Syrian either way.

So..why can't the UN negotiate a ceasefire and provide protection and a corridor for non combatants to leave Aleppo or any other city under seige and be accommodated and supported in a save haven until it's over..I'm almost certain this has been done before somewhere just can't remember when or where.

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I agree countries should sort out their own dictators.

But..seeing as this war now has so many fingers in it, it's not going to have a good outcome for the ordinary Syrian either way.

So..why can't the UN negotiate a ceasefire and provide protection and a corridor for non combatants to leave Aleppo or any other city under seige and be accommodated and supported in a save haven until it's over..I'm almost certain this has been done before somewhere just can't remember when or where.

 

Awwd, ferchrisake

 

The UN is inept at everything related to war. Blue hats are seen as oppressors by both sides.

 

In this context, non-combatants are simply those not of the militia in the classical sense. Old and sensible enough to bear arms.

 

Within 10 years, that sweet, innocent 5 year old will be handling an AK-47 and happily crying "DEATH TO <insert cause here>.

 

In the countries formerly known as Yugoslavia the sides were seperated. Then, the Dutch (with their blue hats on) released the prisoners/protected <pick one> to their enemies in manageable bunches.

 

 

In Srebrenica, a Bosnian town close to the Serbian border, 110 lightly-armed Dutch troops from the multinational UN force were assigned to protect Muslim residents and refugees in what had been designated a "safe area" for them. The Serbs took the town without a shot being fired.

 

The Netherlands Institute for War Documentation (NIOD) report, commissioned by the government five years ago, condemned the Dutch troops for unwittingly assisting in "ethnic cleansing" by helping the Serbs organize the final exodus of thousands of Muslims from the town -- women and children to Muslim territory but men to their deaths, mostly by shooting in fields and barns.

 

But it reserved its harshest criticism for the political and military leadership for sending the troops to Srebrenica with ill-defined goals and a weak mandate.

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classy

It should be fairly common knowledge around here that I don't have much use for wolves.

 

I have NOT posted pics of what wolf does to heavily pregnant doe & unborn twins.

 

 

"Poor Meli saw a picture, now she has a case of the Vapours"

(spelling corrected)

 

 

 

? What can we do about your own back yard, Meli ?

( see port Arthur thread, re/packs of wild dogs threatening graziers )

 

? why aren't you advocating your gubmint to let Mrs. Coxon have HER CHOICE of "suitable, fit for purpose"

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I agree countries should sort out their own dictators.

But..seeing as this war now has so many fingers in it, it's not going to have a good outcome for the ordinary Syrian either way.

So..why can't the UN negotiate a ceasefire and provide protection and a corridor for non combatants to leave Aleppo or any other city under seige and be accommodated and supported in a save haven until it's over..I'm almost certain this has been done before somewhere just can't remember when or where.

 

Both sides must be willing to negotiate for negotiations to happen to begin with, and in fact the R+6 coalition left a corridor to the NE for about four months, deliberately, as they closed the ring. It's quite typical for armies to do that btw, and also as typical a heck of a lot of people used it too. Obviously this is not a condition which can always be maintained right to the logical conclusion of sieges, and some times people just can't give up their homes and/or the occupying force starts discouraging people from leaving. Human shield time.

 

To badly paraphrase an old Russian proverb: "You may not be interested in violence but violence may be interested in you." And either you engage in it yourself or by proxy through the police when that happens. The good doctor has to grasp that he is calling for violence himself now (NTTAWWT).

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Syria in turmoil tends to keep the pressure off of the Golan Heights.....

psssht. Meli's nice diagram clearly says Israel is not involved.

must be true.

it's on the Internet.

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While I think it's admirable and perfectly understandable that anyone have an angry appalled reaction to that picture....my point...and others here is that the "solution" or "stopping" those things is at best complex and at worst not possible. It's unbelievably pollyannish to conclude anything different. I could list the awful history of major genocides in recent times which does not even take into account the "minor" tragedies of thousands here and there in modern times. Can WE rescue all of those children caught up in Allepo? What about the tens of thousands starving in Africa? I have hungry hurt children right here at home.......so do you in Oz. Shall WE not rescue them as well? There are some remarkably courageous aide works risking their lives every day in that war torn locale. You could go do that.......WE could insist our leaders not involve us in those tribulations so we do not contribute to the problem. WE could lend military or economic support to whichever of the multitude of combatants WE judge is the least likely to visit those horrors on people they have idological differences with. WE could send a plane into the city and holler "please don't shoot at us but we're here to fly anyone who wants to leave to.........where?"

 

Really a heartfelt and very human response to a awful picture of human suffering. It's a beautiful "mommy" nurturing loving impulse. But it's like throwing a marble into the Grand Canyon to look at one picture and ask what WE can do.

 

I don't know.....

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Siege warfare is a little different than famine and war in general. There's a reason why it's totally forbiden under the UN charter of human rights.

Why do we keep on paying UN salaries when they are completely unable to enforce their own rules or discipline their members that blatantly flout these rules .

All the sovereign governments involved in these wars could be threatened with expulsion, have economic sanctions imposed or a host of other measures taken.

Turkey for example,or Israel,, the Russians or Australia..if they commit major breaches ..hit them in their pockets or ego.

 

We talk of the suffering of children,,,there are ways to protect these mites, if Soveriegn nations had the will.

 

Like in family courts, the rights and welfare of children should trump ANY other consideration.

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Siege warfare is a little different than famine and war in general. There's a reason why it's totally forbiden under the UN charter of human rights.

Why do we keep on paying UN salaries when they are completely unable to enforce their own rules or discipline their members that blatantly flout these rules .

All the sovereign governments involved in these wars could be threatened with expulsion, have economic sanctions imposed or a host of other measures taken.

Turkey for example,or Israel,, the Russians or Australia..if they commit major breaches ..hit them in their pockets or ego.

 

We talk of the suffering of children,,,there are ways to protect these mites, if Soveriegn nations had the will.

 

Like in family courts, the rights and welfare of children should trump ANY other consideration.

Okay.......that's solidly in the "if a frog had wings he wouldn't hit his ass when he jumped" or "what if they gave a war and nobody came" line of "reasoning". I have no coherent response to pollyannish "gee whiz what ifs".

 

Still, it is a very nice thought.

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because enough is enough. I think people were expecting for this to end long ago.

Why are you diverting the topic?

 

Is it more entertaining for you to divert the thread into an armchair debate?

The topic is how do we stop it.

Enough was enough years ago. You've only just noticed because of the media blitz which is the US's last-ditch effort to prevent their forces from being wiped out.

 

You are a pitiful sheep.

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I personally raised $3500 for the tsunami appeal

And pay a monthly direct debit to Amnesty..have done for 20 years.

Gone doorknocking collecting food for Christmas appeals and worked as a volunteer in food distribution centres, Collected furniture and household goods for refugees.., I do my bit when I can.

 

Single parents can't do much more when kids are still at school.

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To badly paraphrase an old Russian proverb: "You may not be interested in violence but violence may be interested in you."

I like that quote...... good find.

 

 

I want to make it clear, however, that although I am deeply opposed to war, I am not advocating appeasement. It is often necessary to take a strong stand to counter unjust aggression. For instance, it is plain to all of us that the Second World War was entirely justified. It "saved civilization" from the tyranny of Nazi Germany, as Winston Churchill so aptly put it. In my view, the Korean War was also just, since it gave South Korea the chance of gradually developing democracy. But we can only judge whether or not a conflict was vindicated on moral grounds with hindsight. For example, we can now see that during the Cold War, the principle of nuclear deterrence had a certain value. Nevertheless, it is very difficult to assess al such matters with any degree of accuracy. War is violence and violence is unpredictable. Therefore, it is better to avoid it if possible, and never to presume that we know beforehand whether the outcome of a particular war will be beneficial or not. -The Reality of War, Tenzin Gyatso, The 14th Dali Lama

http://dalailama.com/messages/world-peace/the-reality-of-war

 

 

dalai%2Blama%2Bbe%2Bkind.jpg

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Don't you think that if the world in general put more effort into the care, education and safety of it's children they would be less likely to turn to cults like Daesh as adults?

 

That goes for children in general BTW, Raise happy healthy kids with some hope for their future? rather than the "the best will rise to the top and the others will sink" mentality.

Kids are powerless to turn a raw deal around, they have no political power, no power over goverments, their household economy, their early education. The world community must turn it around for them if their parents or goverments can't or won't.

 

Be a lot cheaper in the long run. Cost of constant wars and rebuilding V cost of clean water, food and a good education and safe future.

 

I really do believe that IF there was a will, poverty and war could be eradicated in a generation.

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They've been slaughtering each other for 1500+ years in the region. Us individuals aren't gonna do shit about that.

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The world is global now..what was unimaginable even 30 years ago is now actual in so many places, tribalism is slowly dying. theres both good and bad in this..But we surely know enough now how to preserve and nurture the good and eradicate the bad.

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Don't you think that if the world in general put more effort into the care, education and safety of it's children they would be less likely to turn to cults like Daesh as adults?

 

Yes, I do. And in a perfect world, that would happen. And ideally, that is happening (slowly) in a lot of places as we speak. But there's many places in the world where that is practically impossible unless you are willing to invade and occupy the country. Tribal areas in Pakistan and Yemen come to mind as just a few examples. There are places all over the world that are inhospitable to outsiders.

 

Sometimes you have to deal with what's possible rather than what is desired.

 

is it impossible? or short term financially difficult or undesirable?

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The world is global now..what was unimaginable even 30 years ago is now actual in so many places, tribalism is slowly dying. theres both good and bad in this..But we surely know enough now how to preserve and nurture the good and eradicate the bad.

 

YGTBSM. Possibly the most Pollyanna statement made on this forum this year.

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in a global sense tribalism is dying. you can look at any particular community and say thay are stronger..but as a whole..with kids leaving for cities for work, the internet, and most governments no longer oligarchies or tribal dictatorships..as a whole..tribalism is dying..look at Indonesia 40 years ago..and now.

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Ah..yes..I was refering to small village and actual tribe tribalism..nationalism, patriotism and class warfare is sadly certainly on the rise :)

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maybe it will all stop when the oil runs out ...you cant fight over wind and sun and sea can you?

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maybe it will all stop when the oil runs out ...you cant fight over wind and sun and sea can you?

 

don't worry, we'll find another excuse.

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Back to Syria, I strongly believe that had Obama kept his F*^king mouth shut back in 2011 and not said that Assad must go - I think the little uprising would have been put down and there would be nothing like what's going on there now. There would be no civil war, no siege of Aleppo, no ISIS. But no.....O-boy had to go open his pie hole and infer something he had no intention of backing up with action. But he and Hillary were still hungover from what seemed like an easy victory in Libya and a peaceful overthrow of Mubarak. Dumbasses!

Unfortunately O'man was being pushed and encouraged by lots of koolaid-drinkers.

People like you.

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maybe it will all stop when the oil runs out ...you cant fight over wind and sun and sea can you?

Middle east folks have been killing each other long before oil was relevant, eh?

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maybe it will all stop when the oil runs out ...you cant fight over wind and sun and sea can you?

Middle east folks have been killing each other long before oil was relevant, eh?

 

A quick study of history will show you that denizens of the middle east have no sort of monopoly on thinking up thin excuses to kill each other.

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maybe it will all stop when the oil runs out ...you cant fight over wind and sun and sea can you?

Middle east folks have been killing each other long before oil was relevant, eh?
A quick study of history will show you that denizens of the middle east have no sort of monopoly on thinking up thin excuses to kill each other.

Ya, so?

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Siege warfare is a little different than famine and war in general. There's a reason why it's totally forbiden under the UN charter of human rights.

Why do we keep on paying UN salaries when they are completely unable to enforce their own rules or discipline their members that blatantly flout these rules .

All the sovereign governments involved in these wars could be threatened with expulsion, have economic sanctions imposed or a host of other measures taken.

Turkey for example,or Israel,, the Russians or Australia..if they commit major breaches ..hit them in their pockets or ego.

 

We talk of the suffering of children,,,there are ways to protect these mites, if Soveriegn nations had the will.

 

Like in family courts, the rights and welfare of children should trump ANY other consideration.

Okay.......that's solidly in the "if a frog had wings he wouldn't hit his ass when he jumped" or "what if they gave a war and nobody came" line of "reasoning". I have no coherent response to pollyannish "gee whiz what ifs".

 

Still, it is a very nice thought.

 

Yep.

 

I would go even further and state that modern media, instant communications, social media and the 24/7 news cycle with the ability to pipe pictures of these poor kids right to our smartphone is likely causing MORE wars than they are preventing. War and conflict are inevitable and will be for the foreseeable future. And sometimes a short, sharp and yes even brutal conflict that gets resolved quickly because the outside world didn't know about it or didn't care and it just played itself out can be less overall destructive than one that is dragged out for years because the Meli's of the world wanted to "Do Something". Sometimes "doing something" gets more children killed than it saves.

 

I am coming to the reluctant belief that continually trying to stamp out these little fires wherever they pop up just allows fuel to build up that allows much bigger fires to burn later on. To continue to use the forest fire analogy, sometimes a good burn will promote a healthier forest down the road. I think that is the case for many of these sectarian conflicts going on now. Keeping the warring parties separated just allows the fire to smolder and nothing gets resolved until they finally slug it out once and for all. Winner takes the spoils and usually the society does better in the long term. Europe after WWI was a perfect example of nothing being really resolved and the fire smoldered for 15 years until it caught big and Europe is a much better place now that the fire was allowed to reach a logical conclusion. Certainly, lots of destruction in its wake that could be argued could have been avoided earlier - but not sure if Europe wouldn't have been right back to the constant squabbling and war that marked most of its history prior.

 

Look at what pictures of starving kids in Ethiopia and Somalia got us back in the 90s...... heart strings got tugged and the US military deployed as a result of the desire to do good. The whole area is mired in continual war and famine. Also Rwanda is a decent example of just letting shit happen..... as horrible as the genocide was, the country seems to be actually coming out its history of long running sectarian struggle and actually coming together as a healing nation. I'm not sure that they would be doing that had the world intervened. That hatred would still be burning today, but its not much anymore. The fire seems to have burned itself out.

 

Back to Syria, I strongly believe that had Obama kept his F*^king mouth shut back in 2011 and not said that Assad must go - I think the little uprising would have been put down and there would be nothing like what's going on there now. There would be no civil war, no siege of Aleppo, no ISIS. But no.....O-boy had to go open his pie hole and infer something he had no intention of backing up with action. But he and Hillary were still hungover from what seemed like an easy victory in Libya and a peaceful overthrow of Mubarak. Dumbasses!

 

I agree with the point but feel compelled to differ with your examples. Somalia was a success. I know that isn't a widely held opinion but I will argue it all day long. To this day I occasionally google earth up Bardera and see how things are going. That town is still doing well, and I can see that the ground signs of the mass grave we dug and filled are fading, somebody is even farmed over about half of it. Probably doesn't know what is under that. The powers that were in Mog did not attempt to create a genocide there under the false flag of famine, not after the shit they had to go through with the first try. To suggest that after helping some folks out we are permanently on the hook to make the whole "nation" a success is ludicrous, at least to me it is.

 

 

The issue in Rawanda was the Hutu's were fed a pile of bullshit that the Tutsi's were about to slaughter them through the one, and only one, source of information they had, the radio station. When they found out they'd been bullshitted into slaughtering all those people they regretted it deeply. They forgave each other for the most part. Neighbors who had survive their neighbor walking in with a machete and hacking their whole family do death live as neighbors today, believe it or not. There was no deep systemic power struggle there, not really. This is due to the divide being quite contrived and young, the two "tribes" did not exist until the Germans and Belgians created them, aping the British empire's colonial strategery of "divide and rule". Preventable? Damn skippy. All we had to do was take the radio station which had only about a dozen guys guarding it for the most part. Since the government at the time, before they all became roomies with Hitler in hell, wisely only armed the people with blades and not fire arms. They had not been told that the Tutsi's were all American agents or anything like that. It is entirely plausible to suggest a time out for a bit of them re-thunking would have checked it, at least that's what they believe. It's for good reason the Clintonesta's are gripped with a collective sense of guilt on that one.

 

 

Bottom line, ya got it right but your cited examples are flawed, and the whole point is the critical importance of deeply thinking this kind of shit through. Poor Bridget isn't considering that breaking the siege of Aleppo would enshrine a rebellion in Syria, one that is teetering on the brink of ending. That's right Bridget, the civil war in Syria is drawing down to the bitter end, and if we intervene we easily make it perpetual given the demographics of that place. We've already tried to create an army of secular people there. It turned out to be very much like attempting to build an army of unicorns.

 

My example would be what if the British had decided to ease the suffering of the children in Richmond in our civil war, just a month or two before Appomattox? War is hell? I wonder if the people having a bad day in hell say they are in war sometimes.

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Sorry

 

WE don't

 

It sucks.

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No I don't have a fucking clue how to stop it.

I was hoping someone could come up with a cunning plan.

I can't understand why you guys would not want to bring down Assad.

He's the bad guy..

 

Oh lordy,, Air strikes in Yemen too. and the rebel held capital under siege.

USA and UK assisting the Saudi's..V rebels..

 

I'm sorry..this is doing my head in..why are western countries supporting dictators and kings rather than those rebeling against them..

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-23/yemens-children-die-from-bullets-bombs-and-hunger/7777316

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No I don't have a fucking clue how to stop it.

I was hoping someone could come up with a cunning plan.

I can't understand why you guys would not want to bring down Assad.

He's the bad guy..

 

Oh lordy,, Air strikes in Yemen too. and the rebel held capital under siege.

USA and UK assisting the Saudi's..V rebels..

 

I'm sorry..this is doing my head in..why are western countries supporting dictators and kings rather than those rebeling against them..

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-23/yemens-children-die-from-bullets-bombs-and-hunger/7777316

Some western countries still have kimgs and queens. Why?

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atefooterz #55

 

wiki says dingo is about the size of our western 'yotes.

, interbred w/ some bigger domestics, & in packs,

and no "suitable, fit for purpose" available,

, only a gubmint fence "that will be soon"

 

some grazier is going to be killed.

 

 

 

SV Airlie #54 wolves

 

Have not or would not use poison.

:) As an environmentalist and conservationist, I do not want to kill scavengers.

move wolves here,

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No I don't have a fucking clue how to stop it.

I was hoping someone could come up with a cunning plan.

I can't understand why you guys would not want to bring down Assad.

He's the bad guy..

 

Oh lordy,, Air strikes in Yemen too. and the rebel held capital under siege.

USA and UK assisting the Saudi's..V rebels..

 

I'm sorry..this is doing my head in..why are western countries supporting dictators and kings rather than those rebeling against them..

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-23/yemens-children-die-from-bullets-bombs-and-hunger/7777316

Perhaps we all learned with the DE Baathification of Iraq that power vacuums are sometimes filled with some thing worse than what was originally there?

 

Hindsight says we Shoulda known that going in. But it is what it is.

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Maybe the stories about what's going on aren't always as clear cut? For example:

 

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1006045/possible-implications-of-bad-intelligence.pdf

 

 

"This Indicates That These Munitions Could Not Possibly Have Been Fired at East Ghouta from the “Heart” or the Eastern Edge of the Syrian Government Controlled Area Depicted in the Intelligence Map Published by the White House on August 30, 2013."

 

Syria is a pile of bad mojo. I don't know what the truth really is but I know a pile of crap is when I smell it and math don't lie. I personally believe that Obama backed off on the 'red line' because he KNEW that it was actually our "allies" that used chemical weapons. Better to be embarrased than admit we're backing the wrong horses. I have no doubt that horrible terrible things are happening all around. I have SERIOUS doubts as to whom is doing what. I KNOW it's a total cluster f*ck.

 

The only way this can stop is a clear victory by one side over the other (genocide) or by a third party willing to step up and say enough is enough and put THEIR poliitical and military might into the mix. The Russians HAVE picked a side - Assad. Turkey has picked a side - call it 'not Kurd'. Saudi Arabia and UAE have picked a side - #Suni4tehwin.

 

I don't believe Russia/Assad can lose unless there is an incredible loss of public support for Assad WITHIN DAMASCUS - which I don't see happening unless Damascus itself comes under attack. We can either back Russia and keep Assad, back Saudi Arabia and commit to a massive Arial attack of Damascus itself to deprive Assad of his base, or we can keep dicking around.

 

By 'we' I mean any of the western powers. In fact, it probably SHOULDN'T be the US that does it if there's an intervention. Britain could do it. Australia could do it. But if they choose to go against the Russians, that means they're picking a big fight - BUT it IS a winnable fight with testicular fortitude. Putin isn't going to lose but he's not going to invade Australia over it either. Just have to make the price high enough that he's willing to cut a deal to end the mess.

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Siege warfare is a little different than famine and war in general. There's a reason why it's totally forbiden under the UN charter of human rights.

Why do we keep on paying UN salaries when they are completely unable to enforce their own rules or discipline their members that blatantly flout these rules .

All the sovereign governments involved in these wars could be threatened with expulsion, have economic sanctions imposed or a host of other measures taken.

Turkey for example,or Israel,, the Russians or Australia..if they commit major breaches ..hit them in their pockets or ego.

 

We talk of the suffering of children,,,there are ways to protect these mites, if Soveriegn nations had the will.

 

Like in family courts, the rights and welfare of children should trump ANY other consideration.

Okay.......that's solidly in the "if a frog had wings he wouldn't hit his ass when he jumped" or "what if they gave a war and nobody came" line of "reasoning". I have no coherent response to pollyannish "gee whiz what ifs".

 

Still, it is a very nice thought.

 

Yep.

 

I would go even further and state that modern media, instant communications, social media and the 24/7 news cycle with the ability to pipe pictures of these poor kids right to our smartphone is likely causing MORE wars than they are preventing. War and conflict are inevitable and will be for the foreseeable future. And sometimes a short, sharp and yes even brutal conflict that gets resolved quickly because the outside world didn't know about it or didn't care and it just played itself out can be less overall destructive than one that is dragged out for years because the Meli's of the world wanted to "Do Something". Sometimes "doing something" gets more children killed than it saves.

 

I am coming to the reluctant belief that continually trying to stamp out these little fires wherever they pop up just allows fuel to build up that allows much bigger fires to burn later on. To continue to use the forest fire analogy, sometimes a good burn will promote a healthier forest down the road. I think that is the case for many of these sectarian conflicts going on now. Keeping the warring parties separated just allows the fire to smolder and nothing gets resolved until they finally slug it out once and for all. Winner takes the spoils and usually the society does better in the long term. Europe after WWI was a perfect example of nothing being really resolved and the fire smoldered for 15 years until it caught big and Europe is a much better place now that the fire was allowed to reach a logical conclusion. Certainly, lots of destruction in its wake that could be argued could have been avoided earlier - but not sure if Europe wouldn't have been right back to the constant squabbling and war that marked most of its history prior.

 

Look at what pictures of starving kids in Ethiopia and Somalia got us back in the 90s...... heart strings got tugged and the US military deployed as a result of the desire to do good. The whole area is mired in continual war and famine. Also Rwanda is a decent example of just letting shit happen..... as horrible as the genocide was, the country seems to be actually coming out its history of long running sectarian struggle and actually coming together as a healing nation. I'm not sure that they would be doing that had the world intervened. That hatred would still be burning today, but its not much anymore. The fire seems to have burned itself out.

 

Back to Syria, I strongly believe that had Obama kept his F*^king mouth shut back in 2011 and not said that Assad must go - I think the little uprising would have been put down and there would be nothing like what's going on there now. There would be no civil war, no siege of Aleppo, no ISIS. But no.....O-boy had to go open his pie hole and infer something he had no intention of backing up with action. But he and Hillary were still hungover from what seemed like an easy victory in Libya and a peaceful overthrow of Mubarak. Dumbasses!

 

I agree with the point but feel compelled to differ with your examples. Somalia was a success. I know that isn't a widely held opinion but I will argue it all day long. To this day I occasionally google earth up Bardera and see how things are going. That town is still doing well, and I can see that the ground signs of the mass grave we dug and filled are fading, somebody is even farmed over about half of it. Probably doesn't know what is under that. The powers that were in Mog did not attempt to create a genocide there under the false flag of famine, not after the shit they had to go through with the first try. To suggest that after helping some folks out we are permanently on the hook to make the whole "nation" a success is ludicrous, at least to me it is.

 

 

The issue in Rawanda was the Hutu's were fed a pile of bullshit that the Tutsi's were about to slaughter them through the one, and only one, source of information they had, the radio station. When they found out they'd been bullshitted into slaughtering all those people they regretted it deeply. They forgave each other for the most part. Neighbors who had survive their neighbor walking in with a machete and hacking their whole family do death live as neighbors today, believe it or not. There was no deep systemic power struggle there, not really. This is due to the divide being quite contrived and young, the two "tribes" did not exist until the Germans and Belgians created them, aping the British empire's colonial strategery of "divide and rule". Preventable? Damn skippy. All we had to do was take the radio station which had only about a dozen guys guarding it for the most part. Since the government at the time, before they all became roomies with Hitler in hell, wisely only armed the people with blades and not fire arms. They had not been told that the Tutsi's were all American agents or anything like that. It is entirely plausible to suggest a time out for a bit of them re-thunking would have checked it, at least that's what they believe. It's for good reason the Clintonesta's are gripped with a collective sense of guilt on that one.

 

 

Bottom line, ya got it right but your cited examples are flawed, and the whole point is the critical importance of deeply thinking this kind of shit through. Poor Bridget isn't considering that breaking the siege of Aleppo would enshrine a rebellion in Syria, one that is teetering on the brink of ending. That's right Bridget, the civil war in Syria is drawing down to the bitter end, and if we intervene we easily make it perpetual given the demographics of that place. We've already tried to create an army of secular people there. It turned out to be very much like attempting to build an army of unicorns.

 

My example would be what if the British had decided to ease the suffering of the children in Richmond in our civil war, just a month or two before Appomattox? War is hell? I wonder if the people having a bad day in hell say they are in war sometimes.

 

 

OK, fair enough Mark on the two examples. Point taken. Especially Rwanda.

 

But I do think my central point about the media bleating out the drumbeat of "do something" pretty much forced Daddy Bush and then later Bill to intervene in Somalia when they really had no desire to do so and no real national security interest to do so. I think the media images of people getting gunned down in Tripoli forced Obama to eventually cave to intervening in Libya.

 

The same forces are working on Meli right now to get her to yell "do something, ANYTHING" without her having any fucking clue what that ANYTHING entails.

 

 

I may not have been real clear, but I do agree with you point.

 

Saw some credible stuff awhile ago about why we did Somalia and Kosovo. It was the heady days after the fall of the USSR, and as HW once said "Now we can do some good (in the third world). So many little hells had to burn out on their own during the Cold War because the Soviets took it as a threat whenever we moved and visa versa. The Reagan people felt that they could chart a new course with the UN and NATO as world police. Bill was down with the concept too. Brave New World.

 

As a historical footnote, when they finally decided to do Somalia first (judging it to be the greater disaster, easier to fix, and with photos of starving people for PR) HW felt it inappropriate to make any grand statements himself, being his last weeks in office and all, and The Old Man Himself was ready willing and eager to do it...

 

https://www.c-span.org/video/?35586-1/arising-ashes-old-world-order

 

At around 12:00 or so he gets into the meat of new world order stuff, describing first Kosovo and moving right into Somalia at around 20:00. This speech was written by Reagan in close consultation with HW and Baker, and word is Reagan insisted Bill agree too before he gave it.

 

Bottom line: I don't view HW's actions as forced. He wanted to do it, as did everyone else near the top at the time, pretty much.

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Perhaps we all learned with the DE Baathification of Iraq that power vacuums are sometimes filled with some thing worse than what was originally there?

 

Hindsight says we Shoulda known that going in. But it is what it is.

The only people who need hindsight on this one are those who didn't want to know at the time.

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Perhaps we all learned with the DE Baathification of Iraq that power vacuums are sometimes filled with some thing worse than what was originally there?

 

Hindsight says we Shoulda known that going in. But it is what it is.

The only people who need hindsight on this one are those who didn't want to know at the time.

BC - are you capable of being intellectually honest, and distinguishing what your opinion WAS based upon the understanding of the time and thev"better" understanding that the years have provided?

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Perhaps we all learned with the DE Baathification of Iraq that power vacuums are sometimes filled with some thing worse than what was originally there?

 

Hindsight says we Shoulda known that going in. But it is what it is.

The only people who need hindsight on this one are those who didn't want to know at the time.

 

BC - are you capable of being intellectually honest, and distinguishing what your opinion WAS based upon the understanding of the time and thev"better" understanding that the years have provided?

 

I am on the record. Not on this forum, but elsewhere. I am completely comfortable about saying I Told You So.

 

You were still spreading fairy tales and conspiracy theories about WMD heading off to Syria as recently as 2012.

This is not your opinion changing as new facts come to light. This is kicking and screaming and struggling to keep the nice comforting wool over your eyes.

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Perhaps we all learned with the DE Baathification of Iraq that power vacuums are sometimes filled with some thing worse than what was originally there?

 

Hindsight says we Shoulda known that going in. But it is what it is.

The only people who need hindsight on this one are those who didn't want to know at the time.

 

BC - are you capable of being intellectually honest, and distinguishing what your opinion WAS based upon the understanding of the time and thev"better" understanding that the years have provided?

 

 

You were still spreading fairy tales and conspiracy theories about WMD heading off to Syria as recently as 2012.

This is not your opinion changing as new facts come to light. This is kicking and screaming and struggling to keep the nice comforting wool over your eyes.

 

 

Yep..

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because enough is enough. I think people were expecting for this to end long ago.

Why are you diverting the topic?

 

Is it more entertaining for you to divert the thread into an armchair debate?

The topic is how do we stop it.

Enough was enough years ago. You've only just noticed because of the media blitz which is the US's last-ditch effort to prevent their forces from being wiped out.

 

You are a pitiful sheep.

 

The above is belittling and insulting.

I haven't "only just noticed" I'm just frustrated.

I've been noticing all my life.

Since the Iraq war,,I've done everything an ordinary housewife and mum can do.

Marched in protest, written letters to the paper, written to my MPs.

Volunteered in refugee programs to assist , even changed my rusted on Labor party membership to get more green MP's elected

...the whole point of this thread is that nothing changes the same old same old..war and support of the best-worst partys.

Like I said..why are western countries providing arms and support to dictators, corrupt brutal regimes and dynastic rulers?

Because we vote for the men and women that are too gutless to rock the boat and upset this order.

We should just tet them sort in out themselves and let the weapons dry up and wear the economic and diplomatic consequences

 

Historically..nothing changes for the better without people wanting change and being prepared to wear the cost..

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The above is belittling and insulting.

I haven't "only just noticed" I'm just frustrated.

I've been noticing all my life.

Despite this, your viewpoints are shallow, lack insight, and appear to be motivated entirely by sad items you see on the evening news.

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Uneducated maybe..but hey..uneducated people can wise up with a cheap broadband connection..pompous, jaded, emotionally unintelligent know it alls need time in expensive therapy.

How about you ask some of those injured, probably shallow and insightless kids if they'd like someone to stop killing their siblings and parents?

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No I don't have a fucking clue how to stop it.

I was hoping someone could come up with a cunning plan.

I can't understand why you guys would not want to bring down Assad.

He's the bad guy..

 

Oh lordy,, Air strikes in Yemen too. and the rebel held capital under siege.

USA and UK assisting the Saudi's..V rebels..

 

I'm sorry..this is doing my head in..why are western countries supporting dictators and kings rather than those rebeling against them..

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-23/yemens-children-die-from-bullets-bombs-and-hunger/7777316

 

You see that's where you go off the rails.

 

There are no bad guys, as you claim Assad is. That is subjective. Seems to me that life under him was pretty fucking good compared to what they have now. Then the US started to fuck with the place.

 

Seeing the pattern? Saddam was supposed to be a bad guy too.

 

 

Repeteing your post won't provoke a response..I think 90% have you on ignor

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Repeteing your post won't provoke a response..I think 90% have you on ignor

i think you are overestimating.

and he does have a point.

we were totally ok with Assad torturing people before 2012.

we even sent him people to torture for us.

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Uneducated maybe..but hey..uneducated people can wise up with a cheap broadband connection..pompous, jaded, emotionally unintelligent know it alls need time in expensive therapy.

How about you ask some of those injured, probably shallow and insightless kids if they'd like someone to stop killing their siblings and parents?

Of course this is one of the most common mistakes people make with children - assuming that just because they're short, they're also stupid.

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Repeteing your post won't provoke a response..I think 90% have you on ignor

i think you are overestimating.

and he does have a point.

we were totally ok with Assad torturing people before 2012.

we even sent him people to torture for us.

 

My point exactly..why do we permit our governments to either actively support these regimes or sit back and not economically punish their supporters?

Our economic well being?

Why actively support the killing of Hussain and Qudafi and yet assist Assad? And the Saudi princes, and Netanyahu for that matter.

 

Is the principle of Democracy so corrupted ?

 

Countries spend billions on patching up the mess ,,while activley contributing to it.

It's mad.

 

The cynic in me says that goverments do as they wish in the name of economic security and provide funds to NGO's as a sop.

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