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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

Steve and Dave Clarks Unidentified Foiling Object

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Has anyone sailed a UFO in the Ocean?  I love the concept and am close to buying a boat, but all of the video I have seen shows the boat in relatively flat water and my sailing would be on the east coast of florida where we have 2-3 chop whenever there is any wind.  Will the boat still fly????

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23 minutes ago, THIRDTRI said:

Has anyone sailed a UFO in the Ocean?  I love the concept and am close to buying a boat, but all of the video I have seen shows the boat in relatively flat water and my sailing would be on the east coast of florida where we have 2-3 chop whenever there is any wind.  Will the boat still fly????

We had a couple of feet of chop off Larchmont for our demo day in 15-20 kts on Saturday.  Attached is a video of someone in his first couple of minutes in the boat.  Very low resolution, I know, but he was flying despite the chop and foiling inexperience.  

22212.3gp

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Spent some good time with the boat in the garage. Mostly looked at how to carry the spars and the struts (we don’t have a yacht club here). 

We have yet to figure out how to handle the wand holder and the elevator control rod for transport. The attachment for the metal rod to the wand holder is tough. So we don’t want to undo that. The metal rod flops around when not in the strut. Any ideas?

For the foils and spars we made ghetto foam wrappers out of th shipping foam  I’ve got a truck  not sure what you would do in a car other than take the foils off every time.

Anyone thought about quick pins for the shrouds? 

Hoping for wind by the end of the week.

Also we chipped the coat on our front foil. Bounced on a rock near the boat ramp. Dumbass award #2 goes to me. 

Once you drop it, how do you get the pin in? And which hole is a good learning default? 

After some QT with the components it’s a good little boat  

Thanks- Claire

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On 9/2/2017 at 1:00 PM, Merde2 said:

I've always clipped the struts and never the foil. Never had the instinct of doing it the other way.
Dremeled the tip of the clip off and put in a v-grove so that the trailing edge corner rests in it.
I'll try and take a picture of it later today.

Also here's a way to create enough friction to keep the rudder from sliding all the way down without the clip. Just some progrip offcut and some bungee.

20979412_710165342014_1114499918_n.thumb.jpg.ccd1a6096b3ba9bc5f8301f0e8c98bcf.jpg

Do you remove the bungee? Where did you stick the pro grip?

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Dear all. I am new to this forum and came searching for some info about the UFO.

Could you please confirm to me what are the materials for:

-Hull (from the pics I have seen it seems like fiberglass, but I was wondering if it could be plastic)

-Foils and rudder (Carbon fiber? or alu???)

It has such a great price. I wonder if it´s just being sold in the US atm or if they have had any orders from elsewhere. I wonder if in Europe there is any other foiling dinghy at this price, or close!

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23 minutes ago, Spanish_Captain said:

Dear all. I am new to this forum and came searching for some info about the UFO.

Could you please confirm to me what are the materials for:

-Hull (from the pics I have seen it seems like fiberglass, but I was wondering if it could be plastic)

-Foils and rudder (Carbon fiber? or alu???)

It has such a great price. I wonder if it´s just being sold in the US atm or if they have had any orders from elsewhere. I wonder if in Europe there is any other foiling dinghy at this price, or close!

Ok, I´ll answer to myself, I have just watched the video above and yes, the hull is made out of fiberglass

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11 minutes ago, Spanish_Captain said:

Dear all. I am new to this forum and came searching for some info about the UFO.

Could you please confirm to me what are the materials for:

-Hull (from the pics I have seen it seems like fiberglass, but I was wondering if it could be plastic)

-Foils and rudder (Carbon fiber? or alu???)

It has such a great price. I wonder if it´s just being sold in the US atm or if they have had any orders from elsewhere. I wonder if in Europe there is any other foiling dinghy at this price, or close!

The vertical struts are made of extruded Aluminium. The actual foils are a composite mix.

The company, Fulcrum Speedworks takes orders from anywhere UFOs can land.  

http://www.fulcrumspeedworks.com/UFO/buy-now/

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Spanish, I have one, and the hull and deck are vinylester with some carbon reinforcement.  Wsailor is spot on regarding the struts and foils.  People have ordered from overseas -- the boats are manufactured in Rhode Island, USA.

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20 hours ago, Claire1000 said:

Do you remove the bungee? Where did you stick the pro grip?

You leave it there while sailing. Soak the progrip when you launch and it's slippery enough that you can push down the rudder and it'll just slide down.

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59 minutes ago, Reht said:

You leave it there while sailing. Soak the progrip when you launch and it's slippery enough that you can push down the rudder and it'll just slide down.

Essentially the progrip provides enough friction at the ramp that the rudder doesn't drop all the way down when in shallow waters.
When coming back in, just need to give the rudder downhaul some slack and the rudder rises as you sail and doesn't drop when you paddle into a windless harbor.

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1 hour ago, Randy said:

Get all kind of weird hits for Pro Grip. So what kind do you mean? 

closed cell eva foam.
But I used that since I had some off cuts at hand.

You can probably use neoprene to the same effect. A beer coozy from the dollar store might work.

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23 hours ago, True North said:

Question.  How do you tie the boat to the dock or tow it?  Thus far I have tied to the mast base.  Other ideas?

Towing from the side did not work. I just held a rope and that worked semi ok. Rudder does nothing when all the way up. 

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We do not have a problem with our rudder being too loose. We have the opposite. Maybe it will loosen.

Got #20 on the water for about 3 hours. We never figured out how to get the main foil pin in. We gave up and used a screwdriver. We had 8kts wind. 

Never got it on the foils but had some up pressure. Learned a good bit. Bear in mind we have zero clue what we are doing, no idea how to set the boat up, and I’m a so-so sailor. Husband is a bit better. We needed more lift from the foils. Will adjust and play. Not sure if we should start with more wand height or more rudder angle. Rigging went much better. Tacking I’m a mess. Fun evening and can’t wait to try it again.

I was surprised how much Theo “sinks” the boat when sitting still. He’s 185. Moving no issue.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Claire1000 said:

We do not have a problem with our rudder being too loose. We have the opposite. Maybe it will loosen.

We never figured out how to get the main foil pin in. We gave up and used a screwdriver.

Tacking I’m a mess.

in my experience the Rudder foil will loosen as well as the main foil pin.

Tacking in displacement mode is a bit of an art, I have done it successfully a few time without realizing how it happened.

Here is what Dave suggests:

Quote

There's a lot of guidance and support on this that I'll pass on at a drop of a hat to resolve this stuff, but I'd like to focus my efforts right now on a fundamental technique primer which is long overdue in being written out and I'll be reposting this elsewhere: Tacking

The maneuver that passes the boat through the breeze in displacement mode at speed is a maneuver I call the Heisman Tack. Here's how it goes:

Steer into the tack with speed on. Don't bother reaching off or anything so drastic, but be footing for sure. Get into a kneeling position on your present weather side with your knees facing in, roughly touching your hiking straps or slightly outboard of there. Thinking of it as sitting on your feet is a good way to visualize it. As you steer into the tack, there are two things of maximum importance to remember. 1. Through the eye of the breeze, the sail is a way bigger rudder than the rudder itself. 2. spending too long in the back of the bus with the bows up in the air will throw off all the flow on the blades as the boat catches on its sterns, stops and rests nicely in irons. Those are the two things to beat.

So here's what you do: Steer into the tack with the rudder-punch through it with the sail. Steer into the tack without attempting to go across the boat. You have plenty of stability to play with. Reach down and grab the foot of the sail about a foot aft of the white fillet-bulb, using your mainsheet hand. Pull the main over hard. Get it over your head and shoulder and cross under it while continuing to pull it across. By now you should be roughly in the center of the boat with your body weight a tad aft. Push the sail out onto the new leeward side HARD. This is why it's called the Heisman Tack. You need to stiff-arm the sail out to drive the boat through the wind quick. If you drop the tiller during this procedure, it usually wont even matter. You're working with a far larger foil at this point. 

If you've done this fast, all you need to do is sheet in and go. If you've done this slowly, you can be on the cusp of a stall. The first thing to do is get your bodyweight forward-nearly alongside the main-beam. This cuts the bow up problem out of the equation. Another neat trick is to simulate flow on the foil by "fishing" the rudder. This is distinct from sculling in that it doesn't exceed ~20 degrees from center and happens at a higher frequency. You're fluttering rather than flapping. 

Another thing to note is that sheeting in very hard once you're through the eye of the wind has the reverse of the intended effect, since the main foil is forward. Sheet on very slowly and aim to gain flow before doing anything aggressive. It's far better to get through the tack in one quick turntable spin and then build speed than bite off more than you can chew and try to plane through the tack.

All this said, the optimal way to tack is on foils, but that's a whole separate technique based primarily in resisting centripetal force as you turn and getting shot overboard like Nate Outerridge. But also, with about two foil tacks under my belt, I'm no authority on those.

 

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I will add a bit here.

The difficulty getting through a tack and out of irons is a consequence of the decision to put the main foil in front of the mast.  It requires some technique, but all the management benefits of the UFO depend on this feature.

Key  concept is to get the boat turned well beyond close hauled before trimming in the main, and to trim slowly. You have to get flow on the rudder as quickly as you can. Sitting too far aft, drags the sterns and slows your acceleration, so you want to try to land on the weather side further forward than where you were sitting when starting the tack. 

The deck sweeping foot of the mainsail kind of discourages you from doing this, but you can use it to your advantage. As you turn through the eye of the wind, reach around the more vertical part of the foot, aft of the foot seal, and sort of pull it past your shoulder, like you were shouldering your way past someone in a crowd. Don't start crossing the boat until the mainsail is behind you.  This forces the sail to help you turn, starts your motion across the boat, and assures that the main is well eased on the new tack. You want the clew to be outboard of the leeward quarter on the new tack. Keep the helm over throughout the tack you should think you are tacking to a reach rather than tacking to close hauled.

Try to land near the forward non skid patch, and swap your tiller hand before trimming the main and popping the battens. Do either too soon and the leech will load up and stall the rudder. Sheeting in. Is best bone with a short tug to tack the battens followed by a small ease to establish flow, once you are settled down, a smooth trim while turning up to close hauled.  This will provide the necessary speed build to get you back up on foils.

I hope this helps. This quirk is a function of all the good things about the UFO.  It takes a little getting used to, but with practice you will get it down.

SHC

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Awesome. Super helpful. Love the name Heisman tack  

Many insight on getting the forward main foil pin in? Trying hard not to get the drill out but can’t figure out how to get it in there. 

 

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10 hours ago, Claire1000 said:

Awesome. Super helpful. Love the name Heisman tack  

Many insight on getting the forward main foil pin in? Trying hard not to get the drill out but can’t figure out how to get it in there. 

 

Lube, and just work the pin into the AOA holes without the foil in. It'll get easier.

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The assembler is supposed to use pins as an alignment guide when installing the two blocks so that the holes align, and chase them with a chucking ream after the glue cures and to make sure the pin goes through. If it doesn't get a small round file and open things up just a bit. As Merde says, it doesn't take much and a bit of lube may be all that is necessary. These parts will wear and loses a bit with use, so we try to ship with everything just about as tight as it can be and still go together.

it is possible that the hole in the foil is also slightly out of alignment even though there is a fixture that holds everything neat and square on the drill press. If the pin goes through the blocks and through the strut but not through all three you may need to waddle the hole with a small rat tail file to make it fit.  

Once again, sorry for the frustration, I will check with the guys on the floor to make sure procedures are being followed.

SHC

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We bought a Yakima outdoorsman to put the boat on top of my truck. We were worried about finding a wide enough rack and didn’t have the boat dimensions. We got the 78” crossbars and the “load stops” the black L shaped stops you see. 

Wanted to still be able to tow while moving the UFO. Also looked at making a trailer mount for on top of our RIB but that was pricy and just wanted to start here. Husband and I had no problem getting it up there.

We had to offset it because we didn’t want it resting on the upright bump. Not perfect but seems to work.

 

 

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I will be hauling mine on a similar rack. How are you attaching it to the rack? Ratchet straps? And do you need a bridle to the front of your truck that someone else mentioned? Hoping that isn't necessary at it would seem distracting while you drive. 

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UFO Dumbass Award number 3:

I wanted to lower the wand.

I knelt on the bow and pushed down on the carbon tube (crane?) to balance myself.

Don't do that.

I broke the glue seal on the extension off the crane and pulled the center out of the knurled nut.

Dave:  what kind of glue should I use to fix this?

Thank you,

Charlie

 

UFO damage small.jpg

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I pause to post this here, because I prefer when customers discuss issues with me privately first, but since this is not an unhappy issue and we will all be figuring out these boats a together, and Dave and Steve have been very awesome with public discussions...

The reason our front foil pin won't go in appears to be a manufacturing issue. The little black pieces with all the holes aren't square to each other. They are about 1/8" off. Assuming the large black insert for the entire thing is square with the boat, the pin is clearly at an angle which puts the strut at and angle. Even without the strut the pin won't go in the two multi holed blocks with McLube. You can also just visually tell.

I thought maybe it's not glued down, so went to undue the screws holding the black top parts with all of the holes in them down. On of the screws immediately broke off. I like to think I'm strong, but I'm a sorta little woman that was perched on a truck, so I didn't get much torque on it. Maybe has something to do with the angle and that led to the screw breaking? The other side's screws came right off, but the black part is glued down pretty tight.

Should we try to pop off the top part with all the holes? If so how? If we do, we can redrill it, but that's going to put the new hole too close to the old hole. We could use bolts instead of screws and washers and nuts? Any other ideas?

I will send Dave/Kirk an email also.

Claire and Theo and #20

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2 hours ago, Randy said:

I will be hauling mine on a similar rack. How are you attaching it to the rack? Ratchet straps? And do you need a bridle to the front of your truck that someone else mentioned? Hoping that isn't necessary at it would seem distracting while you drive. 

Haven't quite figured that out. Because the boat's not super far forward, I don't think we are going to mess with a strap over the front. I am very cautious about this as I am in the car business and we have had a few customers rip their roof racks off with kayaks because they didn't use front/bow straps/bridles.

But...I think this is different because the boat isn't long and you don't have a large lifting force creating a long moment arm on the rack. The lifting force (where the main portion of the hull is) is directly over where the tie downs can attach to the truck. We will test and see, but that's our plan for now. Once we do something that works (we are driving to Dallas next weekend to hopefully race True North) will report. The little side stops seem like real good solutions for left right movement prevention.

Also, the rack is so high, we can put the foils on while it's on the truck. Which was helpful for figuring out our pin problem.

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1 hour ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

UFO Dumbass Award number 3:

I wanted to lower the wand.

I knelt on the bow and pushed down on the carbon tube (crane?) to balance myself.

Don't do that.

I broke the glue seal on the extension off the crane and pulled the center out of the knurled nut.

Dave:  what kind of glue should I use to fix this?

Thank you,

Charlie

 

UFO damage small.jpg

I started to do this yesterday. May need some giant sticker to remind myself to stay away. We did accidentally hit the wand with our chase boat and put a dimple in the foil...so we need to put that protector plate on there.

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Don't know about the knurled nut issue but for the insert tab I just put that back together with gorilla glue and assemble the foil. (meaning you put the pin in to position it!)
Glue expands a bit and attaches everything while it doesn't stick to the aluminium strut. 

Concerning the roof racking, I've got the 78" round bars which I'm happy with. Have 2 straps, one goes through main block and the other through the hiking straps at the back, which is where the bars are positioned on the car.  I don't find the front bridal distracting, which I have going through the mast step with some clear PVC flexible pipe so as not to abraid the line I use. Padding the roundbars does provide more surface to transfer any strapping loads. 
Having a slight downwards angle makes for a smoother ride. Just have to take a look at the bug splatter to see where the air flow is hitting the boat.
20170529_200229.thumb.jpg.27e5454b183dbc9b034c75f57d47fbb5.jpg

 

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I'm assuming that the crane he mentions is the part that sticks out of the front of the boat and holds the wand. Well extends from the front foil I should say. In all the videos is appears to be metal but I guess in the production boats it is now carbon fiber? 

And thanks for the answers about the bridle. Sounds like I might use a bridle and elevate the rear of the boat slightly. Padding is a good idea too. Was not even thinking about there being enough force on the boat to rip off the rack. Truck rack might be a different story though due to the way it is mounted. 

Certainly learning a lot on this forum. 

 

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The video link posted above was recorded on Friday the 6th.  Very light wind - 5-7 mph max and very inconsistent.  I never got over 4 mph.  

The tacking hints by Dave and Steve are accurate.  No surprise there.  Thank you gentlemen!

Tacks were not quick in that wind - but a lot faster than back-tacking.

I never did have a problem with main foil pin insertion after I learned the "pin-in-the-hole-before-tightening" trick.

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Had an awesome sail yesterday in Waco also. Winds right around 10kts. 

1. Definitely want to add a mark on the back of the wand so we can make sure it's twisted correctly.. Also want to add vertical marks. I suggest we maybe all try to come up with some standard so we can work together and figure out settings. Something like measure 18" up from bottom of wand, then marks every 3" or something. We use a small piece of electrical tape to keep from losing the wand and that's worked. Had back screw about 1/8" through the hole toward the front of the boat. Seemed about right for my 135lbs.

2. Upwind was awesome. I'm a fairly experienced pilot, and I found it to be very similar to steep turns in a wood spared plane, you can really feel the flex and how one adjustment affects all 3 axis. Don't let that make you think some pilot skills are needed at all. I wasn't working very hard. I was wanting to weigh more, and couldn't get the windward heel thing to happen, but didn't want to mess up my beautiful success so just focused on keeping her going. Not sure if when overpowered should head off or ease main, but played with both and had a blast. The boat "sings" to you which is really beautiful. I had the wand a little less than half way and hummed the hulls just at the top of the water for probably a good 3-4 minute reach. Quads were burning. Wish I had the wand higher, but it was an excellent designed training wheel mode and was probably right in hindsight. 

3. Downwind I have no idea what to do and she bucked me off 3 times. Quite fun, never scary or painful. Let go of the tiller! I couldn't right the boat alone (though I didn't try too hard as we wanted to sail before the wind left us). . A little righting line like Charlie shows worked great. 

I find it hilarious that we got home and talked about sharing some sort of marking system for the wand and a righting line, and the downwind stuff, and then boom- Charlie said ALL the same stuff. So that's good. 

Truck rack worked well. Went 50mph, no issues. Will take pictures of final straps. 

Took some good pictures, then jumped into lake with phone...so sorry. 

Can't wait to get back at it. Going to a regatta this weekend but doubt we will make it around the course, which is fine. The boat is not super fun in displacement mode so 10kts is where the fun begins.

Claire

ps- We are still sailing on a screwdriver, because our front multihole foil holder things are not aligned. This puts the front foil strut at an angle, not sure if that affects the sailing much. We did get the broken screw that holds those blocks down removed (after many hours with a drill press), and used a bolt to put it back on. Haven't heard back from Kirk (who I think is who we should contact), but I know they are at the boat show this week. 

 

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I was too slammed with work to get out, so the regatta will be my first experience sailing my boat above 10, and my second time sailing it.  Not ideal, but it should be fun trying.  Don't want any DNSes -- all DNFs okay!!

Hopefully I will be better prepared for WF!!

 

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Hi everybody!  I received some good feedback from you after the last video got posted:

From Brig:  add a 6" tail beyond the stopper knot to help re-grasp the mainsheet.

From John:  You have to hike and be a lot more aggressive sheeting.

I love this - everybody gets better with good feedback.  Thank you Brig and John!

I hope we can can continue this attitude on this forum - we all hone our skills and spend less time doing repairs or sailing inverted.

 How did you like the underwater scenes?

Charlie

 

 

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All this stuff is just awesome! Getting my head out of the boat show grind enough to catch up on this is frosting on what has already been a cakewalk of a boat show week.

On technique, I'll add a couple cents:

Stay in the hiking straps, even if it's the far strap, or you will be rolled overboard. We're working on making the boat hiking-harness compatible for those who feel limited enough in the core to really resiat this suggestion. I've tried an early iteration of this and, while the athlete in me is offended, the pleasure sailor in me is elated. Perfect hiking in essentially a lawn chair.

Active sheeting is your friend.

Downwind: start on reaches and bring your apparent wind downwind with you once you have the speed up. You are carving towards the mark, rather than setting a course and working towards it. I'll do my level best to demonstrate and teach these things thoroughly at the UFO regatta and clinic in bristol next weekend. I'm also super excited for LCYC Wurstfest! 

Boat Of The Year trial tomorrow. Forecast is strong. Looking to get everybody screaming along and then finally get back to my plant. Eight days of animated discussions with customers is great, but it's time to get home and make the proverbial doughnuts.

 

DRC

Edited by Dave Clark

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Claire and Brig:  

It looks like Claire and I both capsize to windward. 

Dave says to head up and pump like crazy as soon as the leeward hull starts to come up.

Is this consistent with what the Moths and Waszps do?

Charlie

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12 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

We're working on making the boat hiking-harness compatible for those who feel limited enough in the core to really resiat this suggestion. I've tried an early iteration of this and, while the athlete in me is offended, the pleasure sailor in me is elated. Perfect hiking in essentially a lawn chair.

Boat Of The Year trial tomorrow. 

 

DRC

HI all,

Being a BeachCat sailor I spend most of my sailing life on a trapeze (and love it).  On my Weta, I use the tether line as a hiking assist while sitting on the amas (helps a lot).  

Last week I was in my Weta and tried to "free hike" to see if I could handle the rigor of hiking on a UFO. Lets say that my injuries did not love that. 

So, needless to say the DRC statement above totally got my attention and I figured it may have caught the attention of other in my situation = want to foil before getting too old B).

DRC, I know you are busy, however please give us more details on the  "boat hiking-harness" as they are available. 

Great luck in the "Boat of Year". 

Cheers,

BTW. My trapeze harness has back support; not quite a lawn chair, however comfy. 

DRC - I used to often get "the athlete in me being offended" syndrome. I have gotten over that, though :D

 

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Charlie, in my one 30 minute session with the boat 11 months ago, I continually crashed to weather.  The cause is the apparent wind shifting forward as the boat accelerates, so you have to trim in to keep from turning over on yourself.  There is a lot of sheet playing going on to keep the boat balanced once you're up and going from what I have observed on video.  Lots of sheeting out and trimming, seemingly constantly, on the videos I have watched....

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Charlie, I've crashed in just about every direction...

TN is correct; trim hard and head up a little.  Rely on the sheet first, not so much on the rudder.  I'm also working on trying to get my weight inboard once up on the foils and not to hike but to let the boat (and sail trim) do the work.

One tip Dave gave me was to increase the ride height.  This seems counter-intuitive but it gave me more reaction time.  It also made the eventual crash much more dramatic, so there's that.

 

Claire: nice job on the wand markings!  I'll do the same; this is a good idea.  Can you come up with a way to mark the rudder AOA for us, please?!

 

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On 10/3/2017 at 9:56 AM, fastyacht said:

LMI is a putz. Don't bother dignifying her with a response.

I was going to ask if she was related to Eye Sailor but then I realized Eye's punchy feminine humor is better written , actually funny and often informative. 

 

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Good thought on the rudder. Ideas? Maybe threads through the hole? Can someone even explain to me what the rear angle does? I mean obviously controls the rear lift, but is this set to my weight? Wind speed? Wand height? All Equally? Mostly one but the others too? 

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Boat hiking-harness should make crashes way more spectacular when doing 20mph+. I am looking forward to watching the replays. :D

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Rudder foil AOA is something I have pondered.  I googled it yesterday and found a discussion regarding Moths and rudder foil AOA, and the two time WC said the AOA varies for conditions and, I would assume, weight.  All of this stuff is old news to the Moth contingent, so I am sure with a bit of digging the answers are out there.

As beginners, we need to set it in the ballpark Dave suggests and get on with aggressive sheeting, where I know I suck....  Time in the boat and all that will get us a lot farther down the line.  We are lucky we can sail most of the year, and I will need it!

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A thought from a mediocre mothie - 

Rudder AOA: yes, it varies.  Lift from your main foil is controlled by the flap, so as the boat speeds up, the flap can shed lift enough to hold a stable altitude.  The rudder does't have that advantage.  So for a given AOA, the faster you go, the more lift the rudder generates, and the higher the stern flies.  Left to its own devices, that eventually leads to either plowing the bow in or ventilating the rudder.  In general, a flat fore/aft trim works - so you set the rudder for whatever lift that requires based on where you sit (because your body weight helps control this as well).  Eventually, you find that you need more rudder lift going upwind than down (because the speeds are different) - so moths dial it back down as you point downwind.  Or moths should, else you end up swimming eventually.

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The other thought, about apparent wind and rolling in to windward.

Even more so than in a classic dinghy, you are balancing wind pressure in the sail against your body weight while hiking.  As the boat lifts onto the foils, she speeds up (because drag drops dramatically) - which means the apparent wind hauls forward and increases.  Generally, that also means you are no longer trimmed correctly for that apparent wind angle (AWA).  If you don't change something, the amount of useful pressure in the sail and lift generated drop off - so now you are overbalanced, and she rolls in on top of you.

This is the typical pattern of reaching along hull borne: boat starts to lift, pops up, sail stalls, boat rolls in to windward.  Corrective action is to maintain pressure in the sail: either sheet in to match the new AWA, or fall off and bring the AWA back to where you had it (but with more wind).

There are a few good books and discussions of apparent wind sailing out there that can be useful.  It requires a bit of a software upgrade to the driver to build new reactions, because your response to a gust or lull in apparent wind sailing is slightly different that conventional sailing.  To use Frank Bethwaite's phrase, "steer for balance."  Keep the hull under the stick.

An example: you are beam reaching on foils, and a gust arrives.  Boat is overpowered and starts to roll to leeward.  Classic sailing says 'head up to reduce power' or 'dump main to reduce power'.  On foils, that doesn't work - you are fighting two problems.  When the gust hit, AWA went forward again.  You are undertrimmed for the current AWA, and overpowered because the boat hasn't accelerated yet (because the sail is trimmed incorrectly).  If you head up, you stall the sail and probably go in to windward.  If you dump the main, you reduce power and come off the foils - and are still overpowered because the boat isn't moving fast enough, probably going in to leeward.  Instead, fall off a bit (the stick is going to leeward, so follow it with the hull) - as you fall off, AWA goes aft back to where you had it, boat speed and apparent wind speed build.  Once stable, head up back to a reach at a higher speed.  That's the same game the top mothies and ice boaters play to get higher pointing speeds - build apparent wind speed on a reach, then bring it with you as you point up.

As Dave said above, the same trick works downwind.  Eventually you'll find you can 'gust hunt' - because you are moving faster than the wind gusts are.  Really kind of odd to chase them down from behind, but fun.

The leeward capsize: this is caused by a new problem.  If the boat is heeling to leeward as she comes up on foils, the lift generated by the foils is directed up and leeward as well - basically, your lift points the same direction the centerboard is aimed.  Now both wind pressure and foil lift are pushing you the same direction.  In combination, as the boat starts to fly, AWA goes forward, wind speed picks up, pressure in the sail starts to build (increasing the leeward heel), foil lift kicks in (lifting you to leeward).  Left unchecked, she goes in that direction.  The typical classical sailing response is to dump the main to reduce heel - which kills your useful sail lift, boat speed drops, she comes back off the foils, and probably rolls in anyway.  Flat or windward heel is your friend, coupled with "keep the hull under the stick."

 

Now someone closer to the top or middle of the moth fleet can jump in and fix whatever I screwed up.

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Yeah Brian, thanks a lot. I would have never figured that out. My driver software still in early alpha when it comes to sailing. But even I can understand keeping the hull under the mast.  

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Haven't yet had a session to implement the excellent advice from BrianM v2 .  Will find out Monday perhaps.

I have learned that a correct response on the UFO is not always the same as on the S9.  Don't know why - any comments on my experiences below would be appreciated.

I've not had any crashes to leeward on the UFO.  The correct response for leeward heel is the same for both the UFO and the S9.  S9 experience helped me there.

On the other hand, on the S9 if the windward hull starts to drop, you sheet in, step forward, and fall off.  Too late and you pull the boat on top of yourself. 

If you heel to windward on the UFO, sheet in, and fall off, you just drop into the water.  My auto response to windward heel, learned on the S9, does not work on the UFO.

I need to adjust to this windward heeling thing.  Never been a good attitude in the past - but it is now - at least on the UFO.  I guess I need more UFO time on the water :).

Charlie

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Dave, can you have your marketing guy put up a blog post or something about coming to Wurstfest?  I'd like to promote it to the local fleets, but I have nothing to reference

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They all know what Wurstfest is.  They don't know what the UFO is.  

His site is wordpress.  Add the blog extension, add new link to the site header "Events".  "Add Page."  title - "UFO sightings expected in Texas". Body - "Come meet Dave Clark, the designer for the UFO at Wurstfest Nov 3rd on Canyon Lake.  Dave will be holding a seminar for pointers on foiling, as well as in water demo.  There will be three UFOs available for a possible test drive for interested buyers and tire-kickers."

Then I can link to that and people have context for what, when, where, and why.

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49 minutes ago, duwke said:

Dave, can you have your marketing guy put up a blog post or something about coming to Wurstfest?  I'd like to promote it to the local fleets, but I have nothing to reference

I'll ask, but Kirk is nearly fully utilized processing orders and scheduling demos. Not sure I can add blogging to his purview without dropping our response rate. Again, I'll try.

DRC

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Whoa whoa whoa.  Pump the brakes.  Nothing is more important than getting mine by Nov.  Disregard this request. :)

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7 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

On the other hand, on the S9 if the windward hull starts to drop, you sheet in, step forward, and fall off.  Too late and you pull the boat on top of yourself. 

If you heel to windward on the UFO, sheet in, and fall off, you just drop into the water.  My auto response to windward heel, learned on the S9, does not work on the UFO.

I need to adjust to this windward heeling thing.  Never been a good attitude in the past - but it is now - at least on the UFO.  I guess I need more UFO time on the water :).

Charlie

Charlie

I believe you are mistaken and the response on both boats should be the same. The issue is that the boat coming in on top of you happens fro 2 reasons and the response is exactly the opposite in each case. Get them muddled and you swim! 

The boat comes over on top of you for 2 reasons. First, there is a lull. In this case, you head up, sometimes pretty sharply. Done correctly and you get 2 things working for you - the centrifugal force corrects the windward heel and the sharp head up increases the wind flow over the sail. You might also need to ease the sail because the apparent wind has swung back and you don't want to stall the sail or matters get worse. Then there is the windward heel due to an increase in speed. An increase in speed drags the apparent wind forward, so you have to pull away from the wind to stop the windward heel increasing. In this case, easing the sail will make matters worse. How do you know which you need to do? The big problem is that what you need to do is very contrary to what you normally think. You are sheeting out for power and sheeting in to depower!

You need to develop the feel for it but if you watch the tell tales they will help tell you what is needed. It only works if you were correctly sheeted before the excess windward heel starts, but assuming it as, when you get the lull situation, the leeward tell tale will be lifting while when you get the speed increase situation, the windward tell tale will lift.

The biggest issue is that writing it down is a lot easier than doing it. I had all the time I wanted to write and get the order of things correct. If I wasn't sure, I stopped writing and thought about it. You don't have that time luxury when sailing! This is why I swim a lot. Knowing what to do is very different from being able to do it.

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A Class Sailor - thank you for your reply, I think you are absolutely correct on the UFO, but in my limited time on the UFO, it seems to react differently downwind than the S9. 

The 4-foiler and the inline foiler react differently - I don't know why.  Perhaps I can get Dave on the S9 during Wurstfest - then we can get another data point - one with a lot more UFO time than I have.  When John gets back from San Diego Extreme Sailing I'll get him on the UFO and get yet another data point.  I might be incorrect in my assessment - not uncommon for me ;).

And yes, swimming while not knowing why you went swimming is very frustrating.  Usually I crash because I stall the main trying to sail too low. 

A little advice from more experienced sailors either in person or here on SA has helped tremendously.  Knowing when to apply that advice is the hard part.

Overall the mental challenge of learning to foil is quite stimulating.  Thank you for your help.

Charlie

 

 

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Charilie,

Keep up the regular practise and it'll come to you.

It took me one year to learn how to track stand my mountain bike, with age things take me much more time and effort.

Good luck with it all,

Fish

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Rough day on the water today. Made one lap but didn’t finish a race. The one lap was slow. Half the speed of the others. Never could get the leeward hull out of the water. I didn’t crash or hit another boat. Never felt out of control when not foiling and was able to sail around 30+ other boats without any issues. So that’s good. 

But we don’t know how to set the boat up and that’s frustrating. And I think our forward pin issue is causing legitimate problems. Other than that, it’s also hard to sail this boat and I have a lot to learn. I did have a few moments of glory going downwind. Hit the next gear for 3-5 seconds. I was aggressive on the sheet and didn’t capsize to windward once (but had a few acrobatic saves for sure). I’m glad I’m short, have short legs, and am athletic. To wind was a mess. Just couldn’t get it to point. I think first have have to get it on foils, then head up. This sounds easy and is not easy. We had I am assuming near perfect wind. 12-16 kts.

Shoes help, I want knee protection, and I need to sheet a lot more and steer a lot less. She bucked me off good once, and it’s definiteltly fun/scary when it really leaps up. 

So many things in my head can’t even sort em. Probably 3 hours on the boat today. 

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Agree fun day for sure. I was angle to get up a number of times as well, though never really got comfortable yet. Sure seems like this boat will be super fun once dialed in. 

Any updated tracking tips? I still can’t seem to get that to be a smooth transition. 

Was super fun to get into that next gear, and really go fast. 

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Perfect UFO conditions for beginners at Ray Hubbard east of Dallas.  Two boats, nos. 5 and 20 were there with owners Claire 1000, her husband, and me.  This is the first link up of UFOs in Texas history!  Ha ha!!

Winds were about 8 on the low end to some consistent 15, and gusts were up to 20.  Claire and I both started in very low rider mode to get a feel.  While Claire was intent on making a lap, I had Big Dave coaching me up, and it worked.  My final wand setting was 13" exposed above the cam, and the rudder was 1/3 of the way up from full aft position.  Big Dave said that was a good setting as the boat was fairly level fore and aft.  Claire had a bit too much rudder lift and went into dive mode more than she wanted.

Claire and her husband had some great rides, particularly in light of their pin issues.  Further, Big Dave and Claire's hubby put their mechanical know how to address some issues, so Dave C., you have a few weeks before your ear is bent at Wurstfest.

As I write this, I am a bowl of jello!  I am not in adequate physical condition to go more than a few hours.  That said, the boat is fantastic for taking a breather -- stable and well-behaved.

Where I really suck -- two hand sheeting and tacking (among others, but those were most glaring).  Big Dave coached me into a better job on the two hand sheeting as I was hiking flat out with my hands apart to begin--no good.  Big Dave told me to cool it on hiking and work on the hands.  Tacking was just a disaster-- Dave C., a video would help.

Big Dave noted that I didn't bear away enough and Claire's hubby likely bore off too much in getting foiling.  We bracketed the sweet spot.

i am 6'3" and 185#, so my legs are too long for the far strap, and my size 11 feet could not get in the straps without my physically pushing my foot under it.  I think I will install the outer straps, pad them and make them longer.  My 35" inseam seems to be in between strap locations.

Learning curve is super steep.

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In hindsight I should have just forgotten the race and played with the boat and hung out with Brig and Dave, but my goal was to finish a race and I just worked toward that. I’m sure I learned a lot just being on the boat.

I had one “decent” tack. I have no idea how. I don’t think the boat will ever be great at doing a traditional tack so do need to adjust my expectations on what a tack is. You do have to just reach out and push the boom aggressively. Heisman for sure. Then once you get the nose down enough sheet in aggressively. I also spent more than enough time figuring out how to get out of irons. I don’t have small boat experience so that took me a bit  Theo and Brig didn’t have this issue.

Theo chased me in a rib and said my biggest problem was getting overpowered, going into lean mode like on a Hobie, and not doing enough (anything) with the sheet to fix it  I tried to hike and or pinch my way flat and that just didn’t do anything. 

The extra 6” of main is a great tip to grab below the knot. Thanks Charlie. 

 

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When Big Dave coached me into adequate bear off, I usually popped up with leeward heel.  I sheeted out to get back to flat which seemed to work.  I am not sure how to get up with the leeward hull getting out first.  Once the boat was clear of the water, I got the boat back to flat, and it was fairly easy to stay on the foils through sheeting.  While I never capsized, nearly all my runs ended in a strength sapping crash to weather.  Big Dave told me in each instance I sailed out of the puff.  All my attention was in the boat.  While I spend the majority of my time in a Laser watching water, I am so far from that in this boat that it's not funny.

wurstfest can't get here fast enough!!  Can't wat to see Dave C sailing.  We are grasping at straws here, but the few great rides make it worth it.  And the fact that the boat will foil for a beginner is huge.  Long way to go, but what fun!

A Class, thank you for the explanation on my weather crashing problem.  I'd never thought of that myself!  That is truly "what's up is down" kind of stuff for me!  The roll to weather is so fast I am not sure at this point I could save it, even knowing what to do.  There is an anticipation level I don't posssess.  I'll keep thinking about it, though.  Thanks!!!!!

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Claire did your boat tied to truck photos survive? I am curious to see what works. Thanks

 

Oh and as another old guy I would like to cast a yea vote for the harness option. Would make my abs very happy. Even an explanation of what would work would be appreciated. I don't mind doing the necessary mods myself. 

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I never bothered taking photos because I didn’t think they would be useful. Straps all over and it worked. We ran a strap all the way over the boat and back to the truck about even with the mast hole. Then another strap all the way across the back. Then one around each hull and down again up front. Then one to each righting rope and back to truck. Then one around the mast hole to th front rack bar. Basically we just strapped the snot out of it and it went fine going 70. I do like the little side stopper things we have from Yakima. 

After 4 trips, I will say I think a trailer is a better idea. I just don’t like it up there in all the wind and it’s way up high and a pita to take off and on. Once we get to the point where we aren’t also taking a chase boat with us I would like to build a little trailer which will be super easy as it’s bascislly a flat bed. 

If you still want pics lemme know but it’s just straps everywhere. We focused on making sure the front didn’t lift up na fly off. 

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2 hours ago, Randy said:

Claire did your boat tied to truck photos survive? I am curious to see what works. Thanks

 

Oh and as another old guy I would like to cast a yea vote for the harness option. Would make my abs very happy. Even an explanation of what would work would be appreciated. I don't mind doing the necessary mods myself. 

So you are not wanting the rewards from gaining a six-pack???

I am sure that putting in that effort, through regular effort at home, will help with many aspects of sailing too!

Fish :blink:

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On 10/3/2017 at 6:39 PM, Dave Clark said:

 This is a huge deal. In bristol, at UFO HQ we can actually throw a fully focussed UFO regatta and clinic instead of simply having a line at AYC. 

A big thanks to everyone at Fulcrum Speedworks for an awesome UFO regatta/clinic this weekend.  We had six UFOs on the water and more skippers on the sidelines;  it was exciting, and we all learned a lot about the boat.  Dave may make it look effortless, but it’s an art and a skill that only comes with practice.

Don't fear failure. — Not failure, but low aim, is the crime. In great attempts it is glorious even to fail. — Bruce Lee

 

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Thanks Claire you don't need to do photos your description was good. Kind of what I was planning to do, strap it to oblivion. 

Funny you say that Fish. I have been doing lots of ab work and stretches but it always seems that exercises are one thing and sailing is another. Always seem to find new muscles when I am out actually doing stuff. Plus I know how exhausting the crashing and righting stuff is so I figure anything that reduces my energy expenditure will be welcomed. Not having a harness sure won't stop me tho. Planning on going out with a buddy and taking turns so I'll end up taking turns a little more often.

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A great day of sailing in Bristol yesterday!  Wind ranged from probably 8kts at the start up to 12-15 by the end of the day. We got in 8 or 9 races on a triangle course with reaching starts, out to a gybe mark, downwind, and back upwind to the finish, taking around 15-20 minutes each. The course was awesome for the boat-the reaching start was really fun-it is a very cool feeling to have multiple boats hit the line at the same time foiling! The first reach was a tight angle and very physical-lots of mainsheet trim and steering to "keep the boat under the mast", as someone above very aptly put it. I was finding that a few pumps and a hot angle would get the boat up on the foils, at which point it would start to load up as it accelerated and start heel to leeward. I would then steer down just enough to get the boat to level out and then heeled a bit to windward, then start to head back up and trim in, keeping the windward heel angle steady. This worked great until I got down towards the mark, where there always seemed to be a lull, and I would inevitably drop the windward hull, and myself, into the water-requiring hauling myself back into the boat, with feet still in the straps, which by the end of the day my stomach muscles pretty much refused to do. The downwind leg was a much lower angle, and it was amazing to experience just how much lower I could sail as soon as I was up on the foils. I was foiling the boat very flat, and probably not that fast-I bet heating it up and doing more of a reaching mode probably would have been faster to the mark, but to be honest by this point in the race I was already pretty knackered from the reach and this low cruising mode was pointing me directly at the mark, and felt really cool, so I stuck with it. By the time I got to the beat (mind you, this is only about 10 minutes into the race-I REALLY need to get in better shape!) I didn't aggressively try to get the boat foiling upwind, just sailing along in a fast low rider mode. If it wasn't for the crashes at the end of the first reach I probably could have kept the intensity level up a bit higher through the rest of the race, but I suppose that will come with better technique and fitness. Dave proved this out by looking really smooth all the way around the course, but even he was pretty tired at the end of the day!!

It was amazing to see that even with a pretty wide variety of experiences, and this being the first time a group has gotten together to race these boats as a fleet, we were able to bang off race after race-no one was drifting away downwind or requiring the mark boat to rescue them-everyone was getting around the course. This really is a very sailiable, and raceable, boat for a wide range of skill levels. That is not to say everyone is going the same speed or foiling consistently, but they are all racing-the barrier to entry is amazing low for a high performance boat.

Tracy and I took delivery of our boat at this regatta and are really excited to be back into fast sailing!

-Ezra

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Mine? Terrible!!

Steve reminded me of the Heisman tack, which really works but I need to practice it more. Tracy did a very cool looking standing up on the windward hull while foiling into a tack thing that worked really well but I am not sure is repeatable. What looks the fastest so far from what I have seen, at least until we all figure out how to do foiling tacks, is a sort of foiling roll tack kind of like what the AC boats were doing in SF, where you go from windward healed upwind and flop into a tack putting the old windward hull down-the boat sort of pivots around it and gets you on your new course with speed. I have not attempted it yet, but it looks fast and I think might be the gateway to real foiling tacks.

All of my gybes were down speed-at the gybe mark I was pretty consistently tired from crashing off the foils, and once I figured out the low foiling thing on the run I was making the mark without gybing. Next time out I am definitely going to try going from the low mode into a gybe-the hardest thing to get my head around is still just where DDW is with the apparent changing so much.

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Huge day for me today. Felt like things started to click. Winds 10-12kts. 

Here is what I think I did. My only goal for today was to get more stable on the foils. Didn’t work on going upwind or downwind at all. Had about 12” of wand out of the top. 1/4 of threads showing out the front on the back foil.

1. Goal- just make the boat go fast. Didn’t look at tell tails. Just felt the main sheet and searched for pressure on it by adjusting angle and sheeting. Basically stayed on a reach and hunted for speed.

2. Weight in. Sat right on the hull. I’ll work on hiking and getting upwind later. This also seemed to help the boat not rock and lose speed when I hit chop. 

3. When I felt power in the sail I pumped it. That seemed to scoot me to the hum phase. Then the boat sped up. I adjusted angle and sheet and where I had my hand on the sheet and just again went for speed. Pressure. Pump. Then....Foiling.  It almost was a three speed thing. Get moving. Get humming. Get foiling. 

4. Once I was up I headed down and eased. Made lots of small adjustments. 

5. Once I was on the foils it was time for the balance game to begin. When overpowered I was aggressive with my ease. When she started to come onto me that’s harder. Still a lot to learn there. 

6. The longest I stayed up was probably 2-3 minutes. So cool

I have a ton to learn but today was fun. 

I took some pictures and videos of Theo we will try to post. The boat didn’t pop out of the water as well for him today. Then the battery on the camera died so none of my. I know, pics or it didn’t happen...but it did. And it was fun. 

 

 

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