Doug Lord

Steve and Dave Clarks Unidentified Foiling Object

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How does one not get nailed by a foil when they get capsize?

 

And Doug FFS take your stupid irelevant argument for arguments sake comments somewhere else. This thread is about the UFO only.

 

Tony

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Since the foils seem to retract into the gap between the hulls, I suspect that when falling off you end up outside the hulls and thus outside the foils. They did mention in the presentation that they blunted the edges of the foils to help prevent injury (better said in the presentation). And if you capsize to leeward, you're away from the foils anyway. I guess the time you might meet them is if you try to dry-capsize and miss or fall off the top hull. Speaking of, I wonder how dry you can remain while capsizing the UFO.

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And the whole presentation is now up online! Find it here:

 

 

Wonder if there's any more media from the weekend...

Thanks for the link. Very interesting , I wish them success. Quite a different product compared to the Waszp.

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Great presentation! Most interesting about the canard foil configuration. Best of luck Dave and Steve.....

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OK so the "FAB" appears to have been Dave Reed from Sailing World. Thought I recognized the face in the pic. Dave Clark says in the presentation Mr. Reed was up and foiling the UFO in 5 minutes. Actually Dave (and Steve) Clark said lots of cool things in that presentation now up on their facebook site:

 

https://www.facebook.com/fulcrumspeedworks/

 

If it is everything they say, that is a really cool project that hopefully turns into a product. Hard to tell but sounds like they are out looking for funding/capital and/or partners.

 

Hope this make it to the market and very much look forward to hearing what Dave Reed says on Sailing World (sorry Clean, am an SA fan but in this case Reed's opinion matters).

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Do foiling boats "surf"?

Edit- nevermind dumb question

I have the same dumb question. Can they catch waves? Foiling surfboards (e.g. Laird Hamilton) seem to work, so I guess the answer is yes. But it's counter-intuitive b/c you think of something needing to sit "on top" of the wave in order for it to be pushed forward by the wave. If there's so little mass actually touching the water, it seems incomprehensible how "surfing" could occur.

If enough people ask is it still a dumb question ? I have seen the foiling surfboards, I don't understand how they work. I have also seen vids of moths, it seems that they go away quicker than any waves I would hazard a guess that any decent foiler is "post surfing" fast.

 

Of course foils surf. The orbital current in the waves affect hydrofoils as well as hulls. The size of the wave affects what happens of course, as does the depth of the horizontal foil. One of the most difficult challenges with hydrofoils has do do very specifically with waves and maintaining longitudinal stability.

 

As for leeward heel, you can make that work with a tandem configuration as long as you design the foil to accommodate it. On the moth, there isn't anything to be gained from effective lift at leeward heel. But it can be done if you design for it.

 

UFO is free from the moth rule stuff and can go into better more versatile design solutions...remember how all "great" sailboats used to have overhang? Later, remember that you "had" to have a masthead rig with a yawl? Later, you "had" to have a fractional rig? That is all rule artifacts. The same thing is profoundly important in the moth.

 

Because the moth is the most commonly seen hydrofoil, it can get a layperson to thinking that that is the only or "best" solution. There are some very good features to the moth but others not so good. The UFO solves these problems by being free of the constraints.

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UFO is free from the moth rule stuff and can go into better more versatile design solutions...remember how all "great" sailboats used to have overhang? Later, remember that you "had" to have a masthead rig with a yawl? Later, you "had" to have a fractional rig? That is all rule artifacts. The same thing is profoundly important in the moth.

 

Because the moth is the most commonly seen hydrofoil, it can get a layperson to thinking that that is the only or "best" solution. There are some very good features to the moth but others not so good. The UFO solves these problems by being free of the constraints.

 

The only constraint of a moth that matters wrt the ufo, is in my opinion that it only can have one hull. Apart from that, I would say that the moth has too few constraints, like price, ease of use and safety. But the conclusion would be the same, ie that different constraints leads to different designs. Although, the hull, sail and rig design makes sense on the Ufo, I still think it is too early to be sure of what kind of foils it should have

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The pics of UFO so far have the hull low so it may have a wave issue. But as a recreational boat its more likely to be sailed in flat water anyway.

The boat ride height is set by the depth of the wand. For most of sailors trying the UFO, it was set as a low ride to prevent any falls from height. Those used to foiling did enquire and set the ride height high by pushing down the wand as can be seen in some of the pictures.

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UFO is free from the moth rule stuff and can go into better more versatile design solutions...remember how all "great" sailboats used to have overhang? Later, remember that you "had" to have a masthead rig with a yawl? Later, you "had" to have a fractional rig? That is all rule artifacts. The same thing is profoundly important in the moth.

 

Because the moth is the most commonly seen hydrofoil, it can get a layperson to thinking that that is the only or "best" solution. There are some very good features to the moth but others not so good. The UFO solves these problems by being free of the constraints.

The only constraint of a moth that matters wrt the ufo, is in my opinion that it only can have one hull. Apart from that, I would say that the moth has too few constraints, like price, ease of use and safety. But the conclusion would be the same, ie that different constraints leads to different designs. Although, the hull, sail and rig design makes sense on the Ufo, I still think it is too early to be sure of what kind of foils it should have
Allow me to shed some light on this. There's a multi stage takeoff technique that's being mispercieved from the pictures. The boat flies with windward heel. To a degree, the more the better. But it gets up to speed in Newport chop best by allowing the foil assist to fly a hull for you. At that point you lose some sheet, roll the boat to windward and pump in, initiating flight with windward heel. That takes some getting used to and a lot of people on their first try end up flying with some leeward heel instead.

 

As for almost any and all discussion of the configuration: it's pretty seriously set in stone. All the design choices that made it to the pre-production model presented at foiling week were kept or instituted for good reason. Dad and I have been developing the boat full time for a year. Just trust us on this.

 

DRC

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Bora is there on his new moth but has promised us a review of the ufo.

 

But as Dave says, this UFO is about accessible performance. What Bora (an experienced Moth sailor) has to say is really not all that interesting then. Instead tell me what you or some other weekend warrior who has never foiled before has to say after sailing it.

 

No intent to throw stones here but while I have a great deal of interest in the boat I have zero interest in Bora's opinion of it. It actually sends the exact opposite signal that I would think Dave and Steve want to send. Who is the boat aimed at? Folks like Bora? Or you?

 

At the same time, Bora has plenty of time in boats that foil, he presumably has a feeling for how easy/hard it is and whether it feels stable and controllable or on the edge and twitchy. Most reviews from a first-time foiler are probably going to be a lot about swimming as it seems to be part of the game, especially at the early stages. But it does look like most people can get it at least starting to go on their first ride from the photos.

 

I don't know. Maybe.

 

Don't want this to sound negative. Its not intended that way and this is a project that seems to have so much going for it if it is as described.

 

But so far (I think?) we have only seen pics and videos of folks who already know how to sail foiling boats, foiling the UFO on a beam reach. Of course Bora can do that.

 

But if your typical never foiled before dinghy sailor can't get in and do same then where is the accessible part?

 

Anyway continue to hope it is what its been said to be but while I have nothing at all against him I really don't think that Bora is the guy that demonstrates that it is. Somebody like Gouv (or anyone like him) is. IMHO.

 

Got it on the FAB, LOL.

 

 

 

The reason bora's opinion is so valuable is because he has taught dozens of people to foil and watched hundreds learn. He'll know far more about the sailability of the platform than a newb would. it's early days.

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Dave- If you want a bigger experienced dinghy sailor with no previous foiling experience for research purposes, I'm very willing. I was hoping to get up to Newport, but had other stuff going on over the weekend. I've always wanted to try foiling and this looks like a relatively easy platform to get going on.

 

You should bring one to the Dinghy Distance Race next year. There will likely be 50+ boats with people coming from all over, so could be a pretty broad audience to show people up close and also have a bit of fun.

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Fastyacht said:

 

 

 

Of course foils surf. The orbital current in the waves affect hydrofoils as well as hulls. The size of the wave affects what happens of course, as does the depth of the horizontal foil. One of the most difficult challenges with hydrofoils has do do very specifically with waves and maintaining longitudinal stability.

 

This ^

 

Shirley you all have seen dophins surfing underwater and within a wave. Those of us that body surf and know how to do underwater take-offs have surfed underwater. I don't know from experience, but I suspect, based on the previously mentioned observations, that foilers will surf nicely. In fact, come to think of it, there are videos of Laird Hamilton surfing on a foling board he developed many years ago.

 

Next video assignment: UFO surfing open ocean swells and/or white caps.

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Bora is there on his new moth but has promised us a review of the ufo.

 

But as Dave says, this UFO is about accessible performance. What Bora (an experienced Moth sailor) has to say is really not all that interesting then. Instead tell me what you or some other weekend warrior who has never foiled before has to say after sailing it.

 

No intent to throw stones here but while I have a great deal of interest in the boat I have zero interest in Bora's opinion of it. It actually sends the exact opposite signal that I would think Dave and Steve want to send. Who is the boat aimed at? Folks like Bora? Or you?

 

At the same time, Bora has plenty of time in boats that foil, he presumably has a feeling for how easy/hard it is and whether it feels stable and controllable or on the edge and twitchy. Most reviews from a first-time foiler are probably going to be a lot about swimming as it seems to be part of the game, especially at the early stages. But it does look like most people can get it at least starting to go on their first ride from the photos.

 

I don't know. Maybe.

 

Don't want this to sound negative. Its not intended that way and this is a project that seems to have so much going for it if it is as described.

 

But so far (I think?) we have only seen pics and videos of folks who already know how to sail foiling boats, foiling the UFO on a beam reach. Of course Bora can do that.

 

But if your typical never foiled before dinghy sailor can't get in and do same then where is the accessible part?

 

Anyway continue to hope it is what its been said to be but while I have nothing at all against him I really don't think that Bora is the guy that demonstrates that it is. Somebody like Gouv (or anyone like him) is. IMHO.

 

Got it on the FAB, LOL.

 

 

 

The reason bora's opinion is so valuable is because he has taught dozens of people to foil and watched hundreds learn. He'll know far more about the sailability of the platform than a newb would. it's early days.

 

Hey, I'll read what Bora says, but in this case I am more interested in what Dave Reed says (assuming he says anything) over in Sail World about his first flight as I don't think he has sailed a foiling boat before and apparently was up and foiling 5 minutes in. Publish a few interviews from folks like that and buyers will be lining up if they are not already.

 

I want one.

 

What timing. I was about to buy a new Laser. No way! Going to put the dry suit to a new use this Winter if they have boats to sell.

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re: Dave #230

 

Thanks for the clarification. Couldn't find a reason why one would wan't to foil with a leeward heel in a small dinghy foiler.

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I just saw the video and I love every idea in there. Hope the boat has the success it deserves.

 

Ps I'm so looking forward to Bora opinion on how the boat feels,with such a peculiar foil load distribution

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Dave- If you want a bigger experienced dinghy sailor with no previous foiling experience for research purposes, I'm very willing. I was hoping to get up to Newport, but had other stuff going on over the weekend. I've always wanted to try foiling and this looks like a relatively easy platform to get going on.

 

You should bring one to the Dinghy Distance Race next year. There will likely be 50+ boats with people coming from all over, so could be a pretty broad audience to show people up close and also have a bit of fun.

 

Dibs

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Broa's instagram

 

attachicon.gifimage.jpeg

Dave. Please say there's a good story here. Or at least better than just breaking a hiking strap.

 

Dinghy Distance is going to be interesting if one of these shows up to play in the mix...

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I took a couple of rides on the UFO, with my only foiling background being a twenty minute sail on a Bladerider about 10 years ago. On the sail around on Sunday morning when the breeze was up I was up on the foils within a couple of minutes on getting on. Trying to get more speed and some windward heel led to lots of splash downs, but no capsizes and no real drama about getting going again. There was also a reasonable amount of chop and I had no problem sailing around in a not quite flying mode, including stuffing the windward hull completely through a wave. Overall it was a ton of fun, and a surprisingly stable boat for its size.

 

I also sailed it in next to no breeze, both with the main foil fully up and down. It was pretty comfortable and pleasant to ghost around the harbor, and it floated my 200+lbs without any trouble. I think I stayed completely dry on that sail.

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How does one not get nailed by a foil when they get capsize?

 

And Doug FFS take your stupid irelevant argument for arguments sake comments somewhere else. This thread is about the UFO only.

 

Tony

 

 

They can't avoid it, that set up is extremely dangerous for both the crew and other sailors.

 

I sure as hell wouldn't want to be sailing near that thing in a large boat, much less a dinghy with a 2m long pointy foil at face height.

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How does one not get nailed by a foil when they get capsize?

 

And Doug FFS take your stupid irelevant argument for arguments sake comments somewhere else. This thread is about the UFO only.

 

Tony

 

 

They can't avoid it, that set up is extremely dangerous for both the crew and other sailors.

 

I sure as hell wouldn't want to be sailing near that thing in a large boat, much less a dinghy with a 2m long pointy foil at face height.

 

Are we all talking about the same thing here? The UFO, which is what this thread is about, with its t-foils underneath the catamaran-like hull?

 

Actually, I think you're talking about the Quant thing that douggie is obsessing over in the wrong thread. Sorry...

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Doug started this thread, so I suppose we can give him some leeway...

Yes, but he started the thread about the UFO. Nobody wants to have multiple threads on the same subject, so isn't it reasonable to ask for the thread to stay on subject? If Doug wants to post pictures and discuss non related matters, shouldn't he start another thread? Or do I need to start a thread called "Discuss the Clark's UFO - without the Doug Lord hijacks".

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GBR, you make a nutty statement like this and I straighten you out and you say I'm hijacking the thread? You think you should be able to make any half-ass statement that comes to mind?! Forget it........

 

The photos of the FAB sailing cannot be used in considering how well the boat foils, because the boat is heeling too much. Although sometimes simpler said than done, you have to sail foilers upright or heeled to windward. I am not sure there is any foiler that will get up while being sailed with leeward heel.

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How does one not get nailed by a foil when they get capsize?

 

And Doug FFS take your stupid irelevant argument for arguments sake comments somewhere else. This thread is about the UFO only.

 

Tony

 

 

They can't avoid it, that set up is extremely dangerous for both the crew and other sailors.

 

I sure as hell wouldn't want to be sailing near that thing in a large boat, much less a dinghy with a 2m long pointy foil at face height.

 

Are we all talking about the same thing here? The UFO, which is what this thread is about, with its t-foils underneath the catamaran-like hull?

 

Actually, I think you're talking about the Quant thing that douggie is obsessing over in the wrong thread. Sorry...

 

 

 

The Quant, which is a ridiculous concept.

 

But in regards to the UFO, it isn't really a problem I don't think... I've never met my foils accidentally on the moth... even if you fall over the side toward the foils they're usually long enough that you don't end up near the horizontals and the verticals on the UFO look decently long. If you capsize to leeward you usually have plenty of time to think. Going over the front is when it gets really hairy.

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The Quant, which is a ridiculous concept.

 

But in regards to the UFO, it isn't really a problem I don't think... I've never met my foils accidentally on the moth... even if you fall over the side toward the foils they're usually long enough that you don't end up near the horizontals and the verticals on the UFO look decently long. If you capsize to leeward you usually have plenty of time to think. Going over the front is when it gets really hairy.

 

 

I quite agree. I guess in boats like UFO (or moth) the only real chance of meeting your own foils if you are very unlucky is when you break a toestrap. and you wall to windward while the boat capsizes to leeward. Other than that foils are pretty far from any of your possible falling path. And in the UFO, having the stays close to the mast definitely helps in reducing the chance of hitting them when you get ejected in a pitchpole.

 

 

All these safety and usability issues seem really well sorted in this project. The other idea of the boat which I love is that you are actually able to go in the water with foils retracted above hull bottom, which is a unique usability plus over any other foiling boat in the market. All cats/waszp/moths still have some sort of issues in the lauching phase, this could really be the easiest foiling boat to handle in the lauching phase.

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Some interesting stuff in the Clark talk. I thought it looked as if it would most likely turtle when capsizing and the Clarks confirm it is actually designed to do that because of the risk of the boat being blown away. I hadn't realised the risk until yesterday when I was warned of the dangers of training on single handed cats (A Class in particular) by yourself because of the risk of boats blowing away faster than you can swim. it seems that earlier this year in Australia, a well known Olympic medalist had a 2 hour swim home after coming off his boat and not being able to catch it before it drifted off.

 

I also liked the thought put into transporting in bulk, plus club storage, although I notice that in both cases, the illustrations don't tell us where the rigs go. Realistically, that should get shipping costs down to something like $100 per boat almost anywhere in the world. Very smart.

 

I hope they get it into production and receive the orders their smart approach and thinking deserves.

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GBR, you make a nutty statement like this and I straighten you out and you say I'm hijacking the thread? You think you should be able to make any half-ass statement that comes to mind?! Forget it........

 

The photos of the FAB sailing cannot be used in considering how well the boat foils, because the boat is heeling too much. Although sometimes simpler said than done, you have to sail foilers upright or heeled to windward. I am not sure there is any foiler that will get up while being sailed with leeward heel.

 

OK, Doug, I got that wrong, but all you needed was a one line post mentioning the Quant. Posting a photo was totally unnecessary while posting 2 was totally wrong.

 

BTW, did you listen to the presentation and the comments about how to foil? While you were being pedantic, you missed what was important to do with the UFO. I think it's interesting that in so many ways, it behaves like other foilers and I find the comments about foiling upwind particularly interesting, because so many modern foilers struggle in this regard.

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What is the rigging from tack to clew and up to the boom, sort of where a lazy jack would be?

 

The front "beam" isn't straight. It looks better than straight would but is there a structural reason (other than reducing "tramp" area)?

 

The dangly line from the masthead is the halyard tail?

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I also liked the thought put into transporting in bulk, plus club storage, although I notice that in both cases, the illustrations don't tell us where the rigs go. Realistically, that should get shipping costs down to something like $100 per boat almost anywhere in the world. Very smart.

 

I hope they get it into production and receive the orders their smart approach and thinking deserves.

I would have to guess that if they are virtually off-the-shelf windsurf spars, once you take the spreaders off the rigs will be pretty narrow, if there is access to the inside of the mast, say from a bottom plug coming out, then the boom arms can probably be slipped inside. At that point the rigs are reasonably thin and self-contained, looking at the container illustration in the presentation (around 22:30), it looks like there would be a lot of space for sails, foils, rigs, etc in the space around the bows of the boats. Whether you could fit all 35 sets of pieces safely would be interesting to see, certainly makes it practical to have a distributor just ship in a load of boats, assuming you know you can sell them all.

 

I really like the club rack idea, bonus if you can make it easy to get any individual hull out with minimal hassle. I'm sure a lot of clubs are like where I sail, with space at a premium, dry land storage is not cheap. Storage on a rack is half the price of storage in a slot, and the club is likely to make a fleet deal if there is enough interest, plus there's no argue and hassle over who has a spot on the racks because they are basically unused.

 

I noticed that in the pictures from the presentation there's one with 3 modes of floating, boards up, boards down, and a "get out of the creek" mode. The last option has the rudder down part way and no dagerboard down. Anyone feel like talking as to how the boat sails with just the rudder down? How manoeuvrable is it? Can I dodge moored boats and oncoming river traffic or am I basically just going to be able to vaguely point the boat in the right direction?

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Dave -

 

Not sure if you can answer this yet...

 

I assume you don't yet have product to sell / are not taking individual orders, but are you committed to launch the product into commercial distribution with or without a partner?

 

What is your anticipated timeframe to have boats available for purchase?

 

Good luck; hope to see it broadly available soon.

 

Wess

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Doug started this thread, so I suppose we can give him some leeway...

Yes, but he started the thread about the UFO. Nobody wants to have multiple threads on the same subject, so isn't it reasonable to ask for the thread to stay on subject? If Doug wants to post pictures and discuss non related matters, shouldn't he start another thread? Or do I need to start a thread called "Discuss the Clark's UFO - without the Doug Lord hijacks".

 

Its sailing anarchy......its SOP for threads to digress, go off topic and then circle back. You are lucky to get away with a couple of semi-relevant boat porn pictures...with Wess on board, it could have been music videos!

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What is the rigging from tack to clew and up to the boom, sort of where a lazy jack would be?

 

 

The mainsheet. There is a floating block on a bungee attached to the boom to keep the sheet out of the way when you are crossing the boat. The mainsheet is trimmed from just behind the mast.

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Dave -

 

Not sure if you can answer this yet...

 

I assume you don't yet have product to sell / are not taking individual orders, but are you committed to launch the product into commercial distribution with or without a partner?

 

What is your anticipated timeframe to have boats available for purchase?

 

Good luck; hope to see it broadly available soon.

 

Wess

Wess,

You can put down a deposit on one now and get one soon. We're gearing up to do a preliminary production batch now. Demand is demand. This boat needs to be made real this year. How soon the 'ol sales and marketing end of the industry catches on to that demand will be a matter for history to determine.

 

DRC

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Dave -

 

Not sure if you can answer this yet...

 

I assume you don't yet have product to sell / are not taking individual orders, but are you committed to launch the product into commercial distribution with or without a partner?

 

What is your anticipated timeframe to have boats available for purchase?

 

Good luck; hope to see it broadly available soon.

 

Wess

Wess,

You can put down a deposit on one now and get one soon. We're gearing up to do a preliminary production batch now. Demand is demand. This boat needs to be made real this year. How soon the 'ol sales and marketing end of the industry catches on to that demand will be a matter for history to determine.

 

DRC

 

Thanks. Email sent to the address on the slides.

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The only problems I see are perhaps getting the boat to fly in lighter air and going turtle when the boat capsizes. I understand the rationale of preventing the boat from blowing away but out in front of my house and for hundreds of miles either way the water is around 8-10' deep out in the middle of the river(s) so it would seem likely that a capsized UFO would hit it's mast on the bottom almost anyplace in Florida?

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In many places Lasers race around here its not at all unusual to have the mast end up in the mud at the bottom of the harbor when capsizing. This or course prevents a complete turtle and on a breezy day I assume this will put some torque and loads on the mast until the boat rotates around and starts to drag the inverted rig/boat downwind. Given who is involved I would expect that the mast section specified on the UFO is strong enough to deal with that but its a reasonable question Doug is asking, no?

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Over the years I have put the following masts in the mud:

Penguin

Laser

420

505

International Canoe

GP-14

Vanguard 15

Windsurfer

 

On too many occasions to count.

 

I had to swim down to the mast on a Laser in the James River in 1988 to pop it free during a race. I've been delayed in righting some number of times.

Guess how many times it has proven to be a major problem?

Zero.

 

How many broken masts?

Zero.

 

Yes you can break your mast this way. But usually you sort it all out.

The UFO is so light, it isn't likely to be a problem. It won't "pile drive" like a heavy boat could.

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Quote

BR3232

 


"""The Quant, which is a ridiculous concept.""""

 

I know this shouldn't even be in this thread but why exactly do you say that? Seems to me - and I've talked to people that have sailed it - that it does exactly what it was designed to, and makes flying possible for the averagely capable sailor. Yes its really a lakes type boat, but it works and seems that people are buying them!

 

I'm well aware that Mothies think the only thing in the world is a Moth but you have to be pretty dedicated and have time to learn to sail to a reasonable level, and lots of people just don't.

 

So boats like the Quant, the UFO, and any that make foiling achievable by a wider demographic have to be welcome additions.

 

The Waszp is a lovely bit of design but still at the end of the day has the Moth issues of launching and learning to sail it to a degree where it become fun.

 

It's such early days in the grand scheme of things anyway that who knows where all this will end up, but the more people that explore different routes the better for the sport in general.

 

 

 

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Fastyacht said:

 

 

 

Of course foils surf. The orbital current in the waves affect hydrofoils as well as hulls. The size of the wave affects what happens of course, as does the depth of the horizontal foil. One of the most difficult challenges with hydrofoils has do do very specifically with waves and maintaining longitudinal stability.

 

This ^

 

Shirley you all have seen dophins surfing underwater and within a wave. Those of us that body surf and know how to do underwater take-offs have surfed underwater. I don't know from experience, but I suspect, based on the previously mentioned observations, that foilers will surf nicely. In fact, come to think of it, there are videos of Laird Hamilton surfing on a foling board he developed many years ago.

 

Next video assignment: UFO surfing open ocean swells and/or white caps.

Somewhat relevant... https://www.facebook.com/kai.lenny/videos/10154586986469312/

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Over the years I have put the following masts in the mud:

Penguin

Laser

420

505

International Canoe

GP-14

Vanguard 15

Windsurfer

 

On too many occasions to count.

 

I had to swim down to the mast on a Laser in the James River in 1988 to pop it free during a race. I've been delayed in righting some number of times.

 

Guess how many times it has proven to be a major problem?

Zero.

 

How many broken masts?

Zero.

 

Yes you can break your mast this way. But usually you sort it all out.

 

The UFO is so light, it isn't likely to be a problem. It won't "pile drive" like a heavy boat could.

I've also been known to stick all sorts of masts in the mud around where I learned to sail. I've seen everything from optis to 49ers come up with mud-covered sails.

 

The only time I've ever seen a rig damaged by it was on the 49ers. A big front came through, a few boats got stuck out. They took their mainsails down to get a tow in, capszied, stuffed the tip in the mud, and it snapped off when righting it. We attributed that to the fact that the sail was removed took away a lot of the structure holding the mast tip. Every boat that day that turtled and didn't take their main down was fine (well, the bright green was more mud coloured, but other than that).

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The head of the main may have helped keep the mast tips from drilling in as deep too.

 

 

edit- fucksake, have participated in a DL threadshitting derailment. Don't mind thread drift in general but this one grew from the threadshitter's threadshitting.

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Pictures from Fulcrum Speedworks:

 

UFO and some veal heel:
n3nn8n.jpg
UFO-getting started:
5cg9rk.jpg

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Quote BR3232

 

 

 

"""The Quant, which is a ridiculous concept.""""

 

I know this shouldn't even be in this thread but why exactly do you say that? Seems to me - and I've talked to people that have sailed it - that it does exactly what it was designed to, and makes flying possible for the averagely capable sailor. Yes its really a lakes type boat, but it works and seems that people are buying them!

 

I'm well aware that Mothies think the only thing in the world is a Moth but you have to be pretty dedicated and have time to learn to sail to a reasonable level, and lots of people just don't.

 

So boats like the Quant, the UFO, and any that make foiling achievable by a wider demographic have to be welcome additions.

 

The Waszp is a lovely bit of design but still at the end of the day has the Moth issues of launching and learning to sail it to a degree where it become fun.

 

It's such early days in the grand scheme of things anyway that who knows where all this will end up, but the more people that explore different routes the better for the sport in general.

 

 

 

Let me rephrase.

 

The concept is good, the execution is dangerous.

 

Those foils hanging out the sides are going to kill someone, be it the crew or someone else on the water.

 

The WAZSP? Proven concept, safe execution. The UFO looks safe and very accessible too, but the Quant is madness.

 

I want more, accessible foilers just like everyone else but I'd prefer that it safe for those sailing foilers and those who share the water with them.

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Let me rephrase.

 

The concept is good, the execution is dangerous.

 

Those foils hanging out the sides are going to kill someone, be it the crew or someone else on the water.

 

The WAZSP? Proven concept, safe execution. The UFO looks safe and very accessible too, but the Quant is madness.

 

I want more, accessible foilers just like everyone else but I'd prefer that it safe for those sailing foilers and those who share the water with them.

 

 

That is simply false. Normally when racing the windward foil is retracted 100%. But even if it isn't you would have to be paying seriously poor attention to run into it. Thats like saying a trapeze is dangerous because the crews head is "likely" to hit the lee shrouds of a windward boat! As for the lee foil, the faster the boat goes the more visible the tip is on the surface in addition to which paying attention to the boats you're racing with is part of what seamanship is all about.

As far as being dangerous to the crew-no where near as dangerous as every foiling cat there is with the windward foil retracted- but this boat doesn't behave like most foilers- it doesn't crash because it flys at a relatively low altitude with a hull that has very high lift forward. It is a very innovative foil system that allows the 23 to out perform many existing foilers in very light air from take off in around 5 knots wind to upwind foiling in 8 knots and up to around 20 knots in 7-8 knots off wind.

The design is extraordinary and the differences between it and other foilers are mainly that this boat is one of the easiest foilers to learn to fly according to its designer and builder. It certainly flies in a wider windrange then probably 99% of existing foilers.

 

98gh92.jpg

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Why do I do it? Why? I am an idiot.

 

Here goes. I believe all foilers present a danger to anyone who happens to be in the water in front of them, just as many conventional boats are, but worse. This isn't to say that foilers aren't awesome beasts, but they have their place and skill set. The UFO has addressed many of these concerns, but I am sure there will still be issues (that said, I still want one). Foils at speed have done a lot of damage. The reporter who lost her leg, the guy who nearly lost a foot, it goes on from there. That said, foiling is fine, it just isn't a universal solution to the sport of sailing. This summer we had a camper fall off a Sonar, right in front of another Sonar. Kid almost went under the trailing boat but was fine. If that second boat had even a canting keel the story might have been different. But outward curved foils? Sushi. The kid would have been bait. I have seen sailors fall overboard at 30 seconds to a start and it is about the scariest thing you can witness. Lots of boats, going fast, and a head in the water between them. It can happen, it does happen, it will happen. Keep on foiling everyone, but be safe.

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The leading edges profiles of lifting foils are no sharper than the leading edges of old fashioned centreboards and rudders. The trailing edges are no sharper than high quality conventional foils either. We have known for 40 years that sharp TEs are faster. There is no inherent extra risk from the profile of the lifting foils. There is no need for the foil maker to make them sharp but if he does he is putting people in danger.

 

The foiling boats do usually go faster so the impact energy would be greater than similarly sized boats. But large ballasted yachts and multihulls, plus most small motorboats go just as fast and have much more mass and hence much more momentum, hence more potential danger on impact.

 

Any boat which puts sharp objects in places where crew or passengers could impact them is putting people at risk. These risks can be attenuated or accepted by the sailors. Its their choice.

 

Any boat which has unseen protruding underwater appendages which can impact on boats or people in close proximity, without the people even knowing they are there, is in my opinion very dangerous. This applies to any outboard underwater appendages, be it canting keel of outboard hydrofoils. Much higher danger in enclosed waterways, near beaches etc than in the open ocean so I am less offended by their use in ocean racing, canters or moustache foilers.

 

The injuries listed above were from heavy boats not light foilers. All the moth injuries I know of were from shroud impacts, broken carbon components, or from below hull trailing edges while stationary and capsized.

 

The UFO and WASZP have no stays, the foils well under the boat and much blunter trailing edges, all in the interest of risk reduction.

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I wonder what happens if you take the Quant to a mixed-fleet race. I presume that like many fast boats, the best way to start is to have a little bit of runway to accelerate on right before the start. If they are in a fleet of "traditional" sportsboats, then their runway is probably equivalent to second (or further) row compared to the fleet they are sailing against. Can you imagine for a moment, a Quant in a tight fleet of sportsboats, accelerating right before the start, straight towards the first row as they accelerate slower to a lower top speed. That retracted windward foil suddenly looks like a danger to me, and the boat suddenly needs a rather wide hole to fit into without mixing its foil(s) up with another boat. Their other option may be to start in the first row and suffer from not having the full runway they need. Anyone who has raced knows how close the boats can be jockeying for position on the start line at low speeds and close quarters, I wouldn't want a boat with foils sticking out the sides where I may not be able to see them underwater next to me on a line. Once you're all off and going on the course it's a different story.

 

I feel like a fool, being dragged into a derailment again. Guys, please take this elsewhere. Some part of the population who want to foil, want to do it because it's fun to blast around at high speed, others want to add an extra dimension to their racing, and there's of course a spectrum of positions between. The moth comes off as difficult to sail for somebody who just wants to blast around, other foilers seem big to get the power to foil easily, the UFO seems to find a nice balance where it looks reasonably easy to sail, and not too big to be able to be handled by an average dinghy sailor.

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Safety issues really deserve their own thread, but speed in anything brings it's own inherent risks and requires awareness training as a part of that.

 

The same arguments were raised when cats started appearing on the scene! Suddenly there were new speed regimes and attendant risks, foilers of any sort have their own risks and whether the foils are under the boat, sticking out the side or whatever, if someone in the water isn't seen then the results can be serious.

Certainly when racing then it should probably be mandatory or within the class rules that protective and bright coloured helmets are worn, and you do see all the high performance foilers wearing helmets and other protection these days. It's a culture shift that will soon be accepted as commonplace, exactly as with skiing or cycling these days. Seat belts in cars even if you're old enough to remember the outcry when those were introduced!

 

A person in the water is always vulnerable, but sailing at high speeds does require high concentration levels, and thus awareness of what else is going on in front of you is likely to be way higher than when sailing along in the 8kn cruiser having a nice day on the water.

 

If you do get the idiot that thinks it's smart to fly through a crowded anchorage at 20 knots then he'll be the same idiot you meet on the roads.

 

The guy with 150 ouboard on the back of a rib that he can buy and go straight onto the water at 35+ knots is a damn sight more dangerous than someone on a foiling craft that has at least to be able to sail before heading out on one of these and should have a modicum of common sense as a result.

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One last comment about the Quant 23: It is one of the only foilers in existence where the lifting foils can be retracted 100% and the boat still sail well. In fact, it is designed to be able to race with the foils completely retracted. In crowded areas or in situations with other boats in close proximity, at beaches or launch ramps the foils can simply be raised up.

Thats because ,unlike most all other lifting foils, the lifting foils on the Quant don't provide lateral resistance for the boat along with vertical lift-the keel does that.

 

Quant 23 with fully retracted lifting foils:

 

 

99lw8l.jpg

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I sailed the boat last Sunday in Newport before (and while) the front came through, so probably 10-15, and very puffy. I sailed mostly at the mouth of the harbor (south end of Goat Island in to just inside the Fort) to get out of the max wind (probably 18 out in the channel) and waves as I wanted somewhat flatter water for my first try. I am 43, weigh about 185 and am relatively fit, and have done a good bit of dinghy sailing, including a few years crewing in I14s and other fast boats, but really haven't sailed a dinghy in about 5-6 years (kids, work etc etc) so I am far from "on my game". I was the third to try it out, so had the benefit of watching the others and listening to Dave's tips. I got up on the foils after about 20 seconds, and had some good rips, and towards the end of my ride even got foiling upwind a bit. My impressions:

  • Whether it is the small size, or the lack of carbon "jewelry", this boat comes across as a simple little toy that you just have to try-more like a kayak or paddleboard than a high performance sailboat. I loved our 14, but with this thing there is no feeling of worrying about damaging a $30k piece of sculpture, and I think that is an important to it having a mass appeal-it is the kind of boat you own to use, not to fuss over, and there is something about it that really invites you to have a go.
  • it actually sails really well in low or "foil assist" mode. The foils start working almost immediately, so despite its super short length you can sail it like a regular cat, which is great for getting in and out of tight or crowded areas like the mooring field in Brenton Cove. Probably the biggest eye opener for me was how much easier it was than the 14 sailing through there-often the most challenging part of the day was short tacking through the moorings in big shifts and changes in velocity. There was absolutely no drama with the Ufoiler.
  • As others have mentioned, that ability to stop and float is pretty nice.
  • I have never sailed a foiling boat before. In my 20 minutes sailing this thing I had some pretty good runs up on the foils, mainly reaching back and forth. Towards the end I did manage to foil upwind, although on a pretty low angle. Dave has the upwind mode way more figured out, and I think as more people sail the boat the technique will be developed.
  • Coming from other boats my instincts told me steer through puffs, but that always ended up in dropping me back down. This thing is all about main trim and sailing straight. Windward heal, which I did not master in my time, is really fast, and I look forward to sailing it again and improving my technique.
  • If I had to compare the experience of sailing this boat with anything else it would have to be that great feeling the first time you get a windsurfer really locked in-the rig is on top of you and the more you trim the faster you go-although with the Ufoiler the massive acceleration is combined with a sudden silence and smoothness that is really cool.
  • I did not capsize, but I did manage to drop the windward hull (and myself) in at speed and also to stuff the bows pretty hard. Having no shrouds or foils in front of you is a VERY nice feature. One of the sketchier aspects of the 14 was when we depowered the daggerboard, meaning it (with its VERY sharp trailing edge) was sticking 12-14" up in the middle of the boat. Not an issue when fully trapped obviously, but I was always aware of it when crossing the boat in gybes in big waves. Then there were the shrouds... While I think the Quant is very very cool, having that huge windward blade just forward of where you hike or trap is concerning-she may come down smoothly off the foils, but a collision or grounding would be another story.
  • After I was done we brought the boat in to the dock for the next round of people to try her out. Dave tied a stopper knot in the mainsheet just back from the ratchet block and used the tail as a painter. With the sail still up she was very docile at the dock, and for some reason actually sort of hove to in a way such that she held off of the dock-it was really funny to watch, even with the typical Newport motorboat slop this little boat just sat there, never touching the dock. Dave has video of it that he really should post.

My wife and I sold the I 14 and bought an 18' gaff-rigged catboat once we had our second child and it became very apparent that we needed a boat that we could enjoy with our family in the very limited amount of free time that we have. It has been great fun, but we both miss sailing fast. We have gotten into other sports (open water swimming, prone paddleboards) because it is easy to jump in for a short session after work or for an hour during the weekend. The Ufoiler, with its lower cost and simplicity to move, rig and sail compared to other fast boats is very appealing-we could get a lot of fun out of it without it dominating all of our free time or "discretionary spending".

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I sailed the boat last Sunday in Newport before (and while) the front came through, so probably 10-15, and very puffy. I sailed mostly at the mouth of the harbor (south end of Goat Island in to just inside the Fort) to get out of the max wind (probably 18 out in the channel) and waves as I wanted somewhat flatter water for my first try. I am 43, weigh about 185 and am relatively fit, and have done a good bit of dinghy sailing, including a few years crewing in I14s and other fast boats, but really haven't sailed a dinghy in about 5-6 years (kids, work etc etc) so I am far from "on my game". I was the third to try it out, so had the benefit of watching the others and listening to Dave's tips. I got up on the foils after about 20 seconds, and had some good rips, and towards the end of my ride even got foiling upwind a bit. My impressions:

  • Whether it is the small size, or the lack of carbon "jewelry", this boat comes across as a simple little toy that you just have to try-more like a kayak or paddleboard than a high performance sailboat. I loved our 14, but with this thing there is no feeling of worrying about damaging a $30k piece of sculpture, and I think that is an important to it having a mass appeal-it is the kind of boat you own to use, not to fuss over, and there is something about it that really invites you to have a go.
  • it actually sails really well in low or "foil assist" mode. The foils start working almost immediately, so despite its super short length you can sail it like a regular cat, which is great for getting in and out of tight or crowded areas like the mooring field in Brenton Cove. Probably the biggest eye opener for me was how much easier it was than the 14 sailing through there-often the most challenging part of the day was short tacking through the moorings in big shifts and changes in velocity. There was absolutely no drama with the Ufoiler.
  • As others have mentioned, that ability to stop and float is pretty nice.
  • I have never sailed a foiling boat before. In my 20 minutes sailing this thing I had some pretty good runs up on the foils, mainly reaching back and forth. Towards the end I did manage to foil upwind, although on a pretty low angle. Dave has the upwind mode way more figured out, and I think as more people sail the boat the technique will be developed.
  • Coming from other boats my instincts told me steer through puffs, but that always ended up in dropping me back down. This thing is all about main trim and sailing straight. Windward heal, which I did not master in my time, is really fast, and I look forward to sailing it again and improving my technique.
  • If I had to compare the experience of sailing this boat with anything else it would have to be that great feeling the first time you get a windsurfer really locked in-the rig is on top of you and the more you trim the faster you go-although with the Ufoiler the massive acceleration is combined with a sudden silence and smoothness that is really cool.
  • I did not capsize, but I did manage to drop the windward hull (and myself) in at speed and also to stuff the bows pretty hard. Having no shrouds or foils in front of you is a VERY nice feature. One of the sketchier aspects of the 14 was when we depowered the daggerboard, meaning it (with its VERY sharp trailing edge) was sticking 12-14" up in the middle of the boat. Not an issue when fully trapped obviously, but I was always aware of it when crossing the boat in gybes in big waves. Then there were the shrouds... While I think the Quant is very very cool, having that huge windward blade just forward of where you hike or trap is concerning-she may come down smoothly off the foils, but a collision or grounding would be another story.
  • After I was done we brought the boat in to the dock for the next round of people to try her out. Dave tied a stopper knot in the mainsheet just back from the ratchet block and used the tail as a painter. With the sail still up she was very docile at the dock, and for some reason actually sort of hove to in a way such that she held off of the dock-it was really funny to watch, even with the typical Newport motorboat slop this little boat just sat there, never touching the dock. Dave has video of it that he really should post.

My wife and I sold the I 14 and bought an 18' gaff-rigged catboat once we had our second child and it became very apparent that we needed a boat that we could enjoy with our family in the very limited amount of free time that we have. It has been great fun, but we both miss sailing fast. We have gotten into other sports (open water swimming, prone paddleboards) because it is easy to jump in for a short session after work or for an hour during the weekend. The Ufoiler, with its lower cost and simplicity to move, rig and sail compared to other fast boats is very appealing-we could get a lot of fun out of it without it dominating all of our free time or "discretionary spending".

 

ECS, thanks for the essay in sailing the UFO... wish I could have been there but your report answers a lot of questions us 'normal' sailors would have.

 

FB- Doug

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ECS, thanks for the review. A question for you that perhaps you can expand on, you mention the ability to stop and float. Some boats are easy to heave to, some not so much, how would you rate the UFO in terms of being able to completely stop and form a nice solid platform? I'm thinking of situations where you might have a support boat who wants to talk to you, or change crew. The situation discussed in the presentation video, where the boat could be sailed by 2 kids, often the ability to stop the boat and take a moment is crucial to kids gaining confidence. If they know they can stop in a controlled manner, they are likely to be more confident in pushing and learning.

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ECS, thanks for the review. A question for you that perhaps you can expand on, you mention the ability to stop and float. Some boats are easy to heave to, some not so much, how would you rate the UFO in terms of being able to completely stop and form a nice solid platform? I'm thinking of situations where you might have a support boat who wants to talk to you, or change crew. The situation discussed in the presentation video, where the boat could be sailed by 2 kids, often the ability to stop the boat and take a moment is crucial to kids gaining confidence. If they know they can stop in a controlled manner, they are likely to be more confident in pushing and learning.

 

We swapped between four sailors (3 trying it and Dave) from a RIB. The first swap was out in the channel, in a decent chop and 15 or so knots. It was pretty undramatic-boat headed on a close reach course with the main out and just a little steerage on the rudder-the boat just sits there like any dinghy would. I found that to get going, like most boats with skinny foils, you have to bear away a bit before trimming in, or she will go head to wind. Getting out of irons was easy enough- reaching up and pushing the windward boom out backed you enough to get back down to a reach and on your way. Sitting too far aft while doing this would bury the transoms, but I found the natural position to reach the boom was far enough forward for me that this was not an issue.

 

-Ezra

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ECS, you also mentioned its good behaviour at the dock, I found a short clip on facebook (I think there might be a copy on youtube as well)...

 

https://www.facebook.com/SailingShot/videos/1757130207874812/

 

That is impressive!

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I also liked the thought put into transporting in bulk, plus club storage, although I notice that in both cases, the illustrations don't tell us where the rigs go. Realistically, that should get shipping costs down to something like $100 per boat almost anywhere in the world. Very smart.

 

I hope they get it into production and receive the orders their smart approach and thinking deserves.

I would have to guess that if they are virtually off-the-shelf windsurf spars, once you take the spreaders off the rigs will be pretty narrow, if there is access to the inside of the mast, say from a bottom plug coming out, then the boom arms can probably be slipped inside. At that point the rigs are reasonably thin and self-contained, looking at the container illustration in the presentation (around 22:30), it looks like there would be a lot of space for sails, foils, rigs, etc in the space around the bows of the boats. Whether you could fit all 35 sets of pieces safely would be interesting to see, certainly makes it practical to have a distributor just ship in a load of boats, assuming you know you can sell them all.

 

I really like the club rack idea, bonus if you can make it easy to get any individual hull out with minimal hassle. I'm sure a lot of clubs are like where I sail, with space at a premium, dry land storage is not cheap. Storage on a rack is half the price of storage in a slot, and the club is likely to make a fleet deal if there is enough interest, plus there's no argue and hassle over who has a spot on the racks because they are basically unused.

 

I noticed that in the pictures from the presentation there's one with 3 modes of floating, boards up, boards down, and a "get out of the creek" mode. The last option has the rudder down part way and no dagerboard down. Anyone feel like talking as to how the boat sails with just the rudder down? How manoeuvrable is it? Can I dodge moored boats and oncoming river traffic or am I basically just going to be able to vaguely point the boat in the right direction?

So many good questions and surmises in this post. Let me try to get through them all. The mast breaks down into three parts in about 15 seconds. The spreaders come off the front of the wishboom allowing it to collapse. The t-foils collapse to flat units as well. All told, the parts can be swallowed into the negative between the two hulls, and in fact the foam insert for this 'boat/ski rack' configuration is in the cards. At a club, you could have small bins for it all, or if your club loves the UFO a LOT, you could store the rigs intact and the foils intact like windsurf gear in some sort of tent or small shed. Did that over the winter testing period. Luxurious.

 

With a bit of rudder down and the the mainfoil fully withdrawn above the waterline, you have a fully navigating sailboat. It tacks, gybes, goes upwind and downwind. That's another upside of the catamaran configuration. The hulls generate sufficient sideforce to get the boat upwind in lieu of the mainfoil. I'm not sure if it's capable of dodging bullets or anything in this configuration, but the kickemuit isn't without traffic or moorings and I've had no drama. The other thing that this minimum foil configuration is good for is full blown drifter conditions. When foiling is 100% out of the question, pulling the picket fence out of the water is a good play. As a buddy of mine who sailed one of our prototypes out to an island a mile out in these conditions said "it drifts really well". There's also a "shallows foiler" mode we played with two prototypes ago With the mainfoil and rudder 50% down and all systems operational. It reduces the strut drag for takeoff at some points of sail and limits your depth commitment. That was fun.

 

DRC

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Dave, did you guys get to do any informal speed testing with other boats like the S9 or Waszp?

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Dave, did you guys get to do any informal speed testing with other boats like the S9 or Waszp?

We thought it would be a bit rude. Focussed on getting people out for rides.

 

DRC

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Got out on the UFO again this past Sunday. Dave had the boat rigged and was giving rides at Bristol YC. We had a nice but puffy NW'ly (10-12 with gusts to about 15-18 and lulls lower) and sailed in flat water just outside the mooring field. When I first got on we were in a bit of a lull, and I was able to get the boat up onto the foils by pumping the main a few times-a pretty cool feeling! After sailing in Newport I kind of knew what worked (I had been thinking about getting back on the boat from the moment I stepped off at Ft Adams!) and so was smoother with the steering and had some really satisfying burns. I was able to do more of the windward heel mode, and the speed/power gain is amazing. I was also able to get the boat to go uphill on the foils, which I was pretty proud of until I watched Dave at the end of the session sail upwind back into the harbor, through the mooring field, foiling the whole way-I have a lot of work to do!

 

One interesting thing to note-We had another person out trying the boat out for the first time (very good sailor) and Dave lowered the ride height to "beginner" mode, which makes getting going on this thing very easy, as you never get to the big windward or leeward heel angles that would cause you to stuff it in. You still fly, but if you lose it on the main trim the boat just sort of skips a hull along and stabilizes-it truly has training wheels in this mode. Over the course of the day we incrementally increased ride height as we got better and better, and were able to do more windward heel and go faster as we did.

 

Super fun and thanks again to Dave for taking the time to let us go for a spin. From what Dave was saying the boat is going to live at BYC for awhile-if you are in RI or can get to RI I would STRONGLY recommend hitting up Dave for a ride.

 

Ezra

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Great report; thanks.

 

Did SA/Clean ever post Bora's thoughts? Or did Sail get anything up from Dave Reed?

I'd expect the turnaround from Sailing World to be slow. They only published about the Aero the week after testing the UFO. Give them some time.

 

Clean I would have thought would post Bora's comments pretty soon after the test ride, certainly within a week or two. It's not like he's one to get bogged down in a slow publishing process.

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Above demo shows that UFO will fly even when sailed flat or with slight leeward heel.

True. Though it's at its fastest with windward heel. As per my comments earlier, leeward heeled takeoffs with a roll aftereards work, as do dead flat takeoffs which you'll see me demonstrating in the last shot of the above video. Speed in the UFO is, in my experience, all about refining your sheeting technique.

 

DRC

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The foiling safety element is an interesting discussion. I agree it needs it's own thread but I'd wager if you looked at the stats of injuries in sailing per 100 sailing boats or injuries sailing per 100 foiling boats the stats would be interesting. Especially if you allowed for how nearly everyone who ever gets into a foiler is already in the upper tier of sailing ability and would almost never have an accident, let alone even a capsize, in a non-foiling boat.

 

I am talking dinghies here, I wouldn't know to comment on that keel boat thingy above.

 

Speaking from my own experience sailing several high performance boats I've only seen very few injuries sailing non-foilers. Personally, before sailing a moth, the only injury I've had has been either being smacked in the fast by my crews elbow or smacked in the face by a spinnaker pole, or the classic whack on the head from the boom. That hasn't happened in about 25 years.

 

Since buying a moth I've done untold amounts of things to myself and seen many other world class sailors do the same. The shortlist, off the top of my head:

- Black eye

- Whiplash

- Concussion

- deep cuts from foils

- strained/sprained joints all over the place

- Whiplash (see if you can get that in a firefly)

- Broken ribs

- Broken fingers

- Whiplash

 

I've also been at an event where one moth took emergency action to avoid a capsizing I14. The moth's shroud took the T-foil rudder clean off, the skipper was protected by the shroud, and the boat didn't even come off the foil.

 

-Whiplash

 

Crashes definitely happen more often in the hands of far more capable sailors than average. Mass market foiling could be pretty terrifying if you think about it.

 

 

Another point re-whiplash:

In the UK you can get about £2-3,000 (or dollars, they're about the same nowadays) every time you sue after a car crash for whiplash. They are cutting down on it now as it got out of hand and in the UK we think people need to man up. Still, I could imagine the "I'll sue" culture in the states could make coming off the foils on a mass produced boat a healthy industry. How do you mitigate against that?

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Since buying a moth I've done untold amounts of things to myself and seen many other world class sailors do the same. The shortlist, off the top of my head:

- Black eye

- Whiplash

- Concussion

- deep cuts from foils

- strained/sprained joints all over the place

- Whiplash (see if you can get that in a firefly)

- Broken ribs

- Broken fingers

- Whiplash

 

A lot of this is ameliorated by reducing the number of shrouds in your crash path, booms to hit, crossbars to hit, tramps to get caught in (and that catch in the water to leeward and catapult you) , sharp trailing edges to get cut on (we leave them deliberately dull) and decreasing the outright speed capacity to a civil scream. The worst damage I've suffered at the hands of the UFO this year has been a cut to the top of my bare foot on a since removed bolt head located at the front end of a hiking strap. I went bow in and as I took the 'waterslide ride' down the bow into the water, my foot slid out past the bolt head and got a nice 2 inch slice. Besides that I can't recall any nasty bruises or messed up joints. Foiling is dangerous and you should go into it knowing that. For the love of god, don't try it for the first time near any obstacles. But that said, I can pretty confidently say that we've made a boat which takes a lot of the conventional booby traps out of the foiling learning process. We come in peace.

 

DRC

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Since buying a moth I've done untold amounts of things to myself and seen many other world class sailors do the same. The shortlist, off the top of my head:

- Black eye

- Whiplash

- Concussion

- deep cuts from foils

- strained/sprained joints all over the place

- Whiplash (see if you can get that in a firefly)

- Broken ribs

- Broken fingers

- Whiplash

 

A lot of this is ameliorated by reducing the number of shrouds in your crash path, booms to hit, crossbars to hit, tramps to get caught in (and that catch in the water to leeward and catapult you) , sharp trailing edges to get cut on (we leave them deliberately dull) and decreasing the outright speed capacity to a civil scream. The worst damage I've suffered at the hands of the UFO this year has been a cut to the top of my bare foot on a since removed bolt head located at the front end of a hiking strap. I went bow in and as I took the 'waterslide ride' down the bow into the water, my foot slid out past the bolt head and got a nice 2 inch slice. Besides that I can't recall any nasty bruises or messed up joints. Foiling is dangerous and you should go into it knowing that. For the love of god, don't try it for the first time near any obstacles. But that said, I can pretty confidently say that we've made a boat which takes a lot of the conventional booby traps out of the foiling learning process. We come in peace.

 

DRC

 

To give some rational balance to the anti moth argument, I have been moth sailing without a season off for 17 years, and have been foiling (or at initially attempting to) for over 10 years. I have attended all AUS championships in those years except two, plus club raced every summer weekend, and raced at the last 6 worlds, and yet I have yet to suffer any injuries requiring any first aid or which needing me to abandon further racing. Just some cuts and lots of bruises. The crashes may look violent but there really are very few real injuries.

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