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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

Steve and Dave Clarks Unidentified Foiling Object

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A fair bit of moths have shock cord loops to the tiller. Maybe the 50 cent solution to the issue for some peeps....

Probably a decent idea for those afraid of wiggling. Just to share, it's disturbing how well the boat tracks of it's own accord when heeled to weather. I've played around a couple times with letting go of the tiller completely and just hanging in the straps and being the crew while the boat steers itsself. It's very eerie how long it will behave itsself for when I do this. It likely has to do with how neutral the struts are at that heel angle.

DRC

 

Except that the moth does that mostly for capsize recovery. Much easier to get back onboard (water start) if the tiller self-centers - that way the boat tracks in a straight line and pulls you up. Otherwise, it's likely to round up and re-capsize as you try to drag in. Not intended to be a damper on movement while on foils.

 

But, just like Dave says, there is a huge difference between a balanced boat and a non-balanced boat. If you get a moth set up right (heel, fore/aft balance, foil height) the tiller goes pretty light. You _could_ let go, but I've never been willing to try it.

 

It really comes down to learning a lighter touch. Up flying at 20+ kts, with the fairly short wheelbase that comes with foils, the same amount of rudder motion that works well for a conventional boat puts you deep into PIO (pilot-induced oscillations) on a foiler. Movement leads to counter leads to overcorrection leads to eject and crash. One must play with the waggle-stick very gently.

 

 

Fully agree. This is for the guys who may need to drop the stick for a second for a big sheet in. A tiny bit of dampening in the system is great for peace of mind and fun foiling. Helping in a wipeout is an added bonus. One less excuse for guys on the fence.....

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mr_ryano:

I fully agree with your comments on tiller movement. My limited experience foiling and documenting others foiling shows that oversteering makes for great video clips. Even world-class sailors make this mistake when learning: see http://www.foilingweek.com/blog/2014/12/bar-nacra-f20-training/ and https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HF87WI5kM9g/V9vfjTTRkzI/AAAAAAAApxs/zoyWV58XxkAipgUIqggg6KkUX5Kt80FlACLcB/s1600/FoilingWeekNewport2016-F20Melvin.jpg.

 

Most of the amateurs that sailed my boats did the same thing - me included. The boat can turn faster than your body can follow. That happens at 20 knots on a boat with a short foilbase (a new word I made up - analogous to wheelbase).

 

As I've seen others do in this and other foiling forums, I "invented" many problems while anticipating my new foiling adventure - only to find that many of my earlier concerns were unfounded or very minor - but I did discover, in practice, a complete set of new issues that I had not anticipated. I suspect the sheeting, steering, chop, and other issues we read about here will continue to be entertaining to discuss, but rather routine in practice.

 

Anyway, still fun, eh?

Charlie

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a short foilbase (a new word I made up - analogous to wheelbase).

 

 

Charlie

I like "close-coupled" works for dogs, horses, etc too

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Hi Dave and Steve,

 

First of all, my compliments for combining the major breakthroughs in sailboat design and construction for the last 150 years in a unique and new vision. From you two, we don't expect less.

 

I couldn't help but notice that the dimensions of the UFO are roughly that of an inflatable dinghy. The volume is less (catamaran) and the weight is much less. So I have a few questions regarding the possibility of using the boat as a tender.

 

1) Is it unsinkable?

2) Does it tow well (and where do you attach the tow lines)?

3) Can you stand up and paddle (SUP)?

4) Can you row it?

5) Will it make it to shore in calm water with 2 FABs?

6) the $64 question ... an outboard?

X) I don't care what it rates.

 

P.S. I couldn't easily find the dimensions; LOA? Beam?

 

mark

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Hi Dave and Steve,

 

First of all, my compliments for combining the major breakthroughs in sailboat design and construction for the last 150 years in a unique and new vision. From you two, we don't expect less.

 

I couldn't help but notice that the dimensions of the UFO are roughly that of an inflatable dinghy. The volume is less (catamaran) and the weight is much less. So I have a few questions regarding the possibility of using the boat as a tender.

 

1) Is it unsinkable?

2) Does it tow well (and where do you attach the tow lines)?

3) Can you stand up and paddle (SUP)?

4) Can you row it?

5) Will it make it to shore in calm water with 2 FABs?

6) the $64 question ... an outboard?

X) I don't care what it rates.

 

P.S. I couldn't easily find the dimensions; LOA? Beam?

 

mark

I'm flattered! Here's a few answers:

 

1. Yup

2. It can

3. Yes. Done it. Worlds stables SUP

4. The ergonomics are all wrong for that

5. No way in hell. One FAB is the limit.

6. It would need to be a very small outboard

 

I actually get a real kick out of using it as a SUP.

 

DRC

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Better have a long tail outboard. Why use an ufo if not for foiling. I guess, a Thai long tail boat engine would be just right.

 

post-128890-0-88021700-1486478835_thumb.jpg

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How much water depth do you need?

Roughly 50 inches. Though, thanks to the wand being built onto the strut and located forward of the rig, you can foil with the struts reefed. It requires a five minute modification to the mainfoil strut with a 1/4 inch drillbit. At the limit of reefed foiling, you can fly with about 20 inches of water, though not really at all points of sail. That's too shallow to gain windward heel and not enough strut in the water to generate sideforce. Skitters like a banshee downwind, though. Another extremely odd practical upshot of this is (downwind) it removes so much strut wetted area that it actually significantly decreases the wind required to fly. Really weird but really fun. Modify your foils at your own risk, though. Once you're back at full depth, that hole in the strut is not fast and low profile tyvek take can only solve the problem for a couple uses at a time.

 

DRC

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foil set for the cruising sailor...beefier around the extra hole? It sure would be an interesting unintended consequence if in five years time these things are standard issue lashed to the bows of the ARC fleet heading for the cruising grounds and they make up half your sales!

 

Then again, what would be a better replacement for 100,000 resort hobie cats and sunfish than the UFO?

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foil set for the cruising sailor...beefier around the extra hole? It sure would be an interesting unintended consequence if in five years time these things are standard issue lashed to the bows of the ARC fleet heading for the cruising grounds and they make up half your sales!

 

Then again, what would be a better replacement for 100,000 resort hobie cats and sunfish than the UFO?

 

those boats get run up on the beach every time - and that will not change no matter what boat they use

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foil set for the cruising sailor...beefier around the extra hole? It sure would be an interesting unintended consequence if in five years time these things are standard issue lashed to the bows of the ARC fleet heading for the cruising grounds and they make up half your sales!

 

Then again, what would be a better replacement for 100,000 resort hobie cats and sunfish than the UFO?

those boats get run up on the beach every time - and that will not change no matter what boat they use

Good thing we designed it to get run up a beach

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foil set for the cruising sailor...beefier around the extra hole? It sure would be an interesting unintended consequence if in five years time these things are standard issue lashed to the bows of the ARC fleet heading for the cruising grounds and they make up half your sales!

 

Then again, what would be a better replacement for 100,000 resort hobie cats and sunfish than the UFO?

those boats get run up on the beach every time - and that will not change no matter what boat they use

Good thing we designed it to get run up a beach

 

 

but they have to lift them before running up on the beach - and having watched lot's of rental beach cat landings.., that's a big ask...

 

i think they will be suitable for some sailors at some locations - and i hope it happens

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Quick question, how does the rudder go part way down and can the same system work for the main strut?

There's a down-halyard on the rudder with a cleat and a rope tender system for the tail. It'll drop to whatever depth you set it to. To get it to go back up, uncleat it and continue sailing forward at a minimum of ~1.5 knots. The foil will lift itself to the new required degree of withdrawal. I spent a couple eternities in rhino trying to efficiently get the same type of system to work for the mainfoil, but the 'pin through the head' AoA control is a permanent road block. If you add an extra hole you can set the foil to that, sort of like a reef point, but it's not possible to make the system fully continuous.

 

DRC

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so, are you thinking of some kind of demo tour this spring or summer?

 

if interested people are up in newport for a regatta, is there a way to try one?

 

i keep getting told i should buy an Aero, but i think i might rather buy one of these

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so, are you thinking of some kind of demo tour this spring or summer?

 

if interested people are up in newport for a regatta, is there a way to try one?

 

i keep getting told i should buy an Aero, but i think i might rather buy one of these

 

where are you based?

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Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's

I'll have mine at Larchmont YC for part of the summer. I think there will be another one up in the Branford, CT area. Not sure about others.

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Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's

I'll have mine at Larchmont YC for part of the summer. I think there will be another one up in the Branford, CT area. Not sure about others.

 

You realize this is not a Sunfish thread? Just checking

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Getting one and will be in Rye. Also have a waszp and have been happy with that. But have a bunch of sailors in the family and always more fun to get out with somebody else than go by yourself so decided to go with the UFO. Also UFO looks a little easier in the low ride mode.

 

 

 

Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's

I'll have mine at Larchmont YC for part of the summer. I think there will be another one up in the Branford, CT area. Not sure about others.

 

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Getting one and will be in Rye. Also have a waszp and have been happy with that. But have a bunch of sailors in the family and always more fun to get out with somebody else than go by yourself so decided to go with the UFO. Also UFO looks a little easier in the low ride mode.

 

 

 

Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's

I'll have mine at Larchmont YC for part of the summer. I think there will be another one up in the Branford, CT area. Not sure about others.

 

 

 

There will be two in Southport CT

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The Larchmont one will also spend all of August on Shelter Island for anyone who is on the East End. Maybe we can get a UFO division together at the HPDO at American YC in October and not have to race Portsmouth Yardstick under a random number that won't have been properly established yet in all likelihood.

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This is pretty exciting when you think about the idea that you'll have a new Long Island Sound dinghy class this spring, from one end to the other.

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Is anyone else in the area thinking of doing the long distance dinghy race?

Me. Also I just realized you can store a beer can in the fillet-bulb at the bottom of the sail. Decent redundancy strategy in the event of a drifter.

 

DRC

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Dave - a couple of questions:

 

what is the minimum windspeed for a good sailor to foil on this boat, and about what TWA would that be?

 

if you were racing one design on a windward/leeward course.., is it going to be the case that anytime you can foil.., you will?

 

or, at lower windspeeds, will the angles at which you can foil be too fat for it to be optimal to foil?

 

if you are going to be racing in displacement-mode at lower windspeeds, at about what windspeed would the crossover be where it's optimal to foil up and down wind?

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I am sure we could. Just need about five boats.

The Larchmont one will also spend all of August on Shelter Island for anyone who is on the East End. Maybe we can get a UFO division together at the HPDO at American YC in October and not have to race Portsmouth Yardstick under a random number that won't have been properly established yet in all likelihood.

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Dave - a couple of questions:

 

what is the minimum windspeed for a good sailor to foil on this boat, and about what TWA would that be?

 

if you were racing one design on a windward/leeward course.., is it going to be the case that anytime you can foil.., you will?

 

or, at lower windspeeds, will the angles at which you can foil be too fat for it to be optimal to foil?

I find that for medium weight people, 8 knots windspeed over the water measured from an anemometer on the stationary chaseboat is the end of marginal conditions. At 8 and above, you'll expect to be flying consistently and at all points of sail. Upwind, downwind, reaching. The angles don't appear to become more obtuse with less wind. No matter what the breeze is, you're tacking though about 100 or 110 (some people call this 50 or 55 degrees to the wind. They mean the same thing). There are some intermediate windspeeds you can get in a pinching groove on the foils, but pointing is far more a slow boat's game. For a comparison, these are around the same tacking angles you see in moth racing.

 

It's possible that at some point on the course one might want to pinch like crazy and, in the event that they can maintail foil assisted planing towards their target, might still make acceptable VMG. But I doubt it holds a candle to foiling. Additionally a similar scenario may exist when there's an uncrowded DDW course to mark as you get in close and enter the chaos. However, in my experience the limits to soaking it nearly dead downwind on foils are barely there and evaporate with skill. You can shed speed and maintain flight going virtually dead down wind for quite a distance.

 

Regarding your last question, it's probable that in truly marginal breeze it's too risky to bother trying to fly on the beats and best to not get seduced. So just go for the mark. Meanwhile on the downwinds, heating it up may pay off that extra bit more consistently in bursts of flight to be worth the effort. With the rig as powered up as possible, that's definitely a likelihood. I expect the killer strategy in these sorts of conditions is to port tack the fleet on a hot airborne reach, foot if you have to to stay airborne, pray to god you nail the tack, round the windward mark keep foiling all the way downwind, repeat.

 

These are merely some of my thoughts on this stuff based on my experience with the UFO. If it ever becomes necessary to learn everything there is to know about what race tactics will pertain best to a new boat before introducing it to the marketplace, nobody will ever invest in developing new boats.

DRC

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If it ever becomes necessary to learn everything there is to know about what race tactics will pertain best to a new boat before introducing it to the marketplace, nobody will ever invest in developing new boats.

 

sure - i was just asking for your best guess based on what you know now...

 

it sounds like for windspeeds above 8kts, W/L racing will mostly be foiling for someone with experience in the boat.

 

that sounds pretty good to me!

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Is anyone else in the area thinking of doing the long distance dinghy race?

Me. Also I just realized you can store a beer can in the fillet-bulb at the bottom of the sail. Decent redundancy strategy in the event of a drifter.

 

DRC

Will one of these fit?

 

a3896c140348abaec57a603654852beb.jpg

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Is anyone else in the area thinking of doing the long distance dinghy race?

Me. Also I just realized you can store a beer can in the fillet-bulb at the bottom of the sail. Decent redundancy strategy in the event of a drifter.

 

DRC

Will one of these fit?

 

a3896c140348abaec57a603654852beb.jpg

Wrong diameter, but you're supposed to duct-tape those to your hands anyway.

 

DRC

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If it ever becomes necessary to learn everything there is to know about what race tactics will pertain best to a new boat before introducing it to the marketplace, nobody will ever invest in developing new boats.

 

sure - i was just asking for your best guess based on what you know now...

 

it sounds like for windspeeds above 8kts, W/L racing will mostly be foiling for someone with experience in the boat.

 

that sounds pretty good to me!

 

 

 

also - i think maybe i was imagining that more boats have already been built than actually have been

 

i was thinking that some racing - if only informal - might have already occurred

 

but i guess that's wrong...

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If it ever becomes necessary to learn everything there is to know about what race tactics will pertain best to a new boat before introducing it to the marketplace, nobody will ever invest in developing new boats.

sure - i was just asking for your best guess based on what you know now...

 

it sounds like for windspeeds above 8kts, W/L racing will mostly be foiling for someone with experience in the boat.

 

that sounds pretty good to me!

 

also - i think maybe i was imagining that more boats have already been built than actually have been

 

i was thinking that some racing - if only informal - might have already occurred

 

but i guess that's wrong...

Not far off, actually. In the pre-production phase we made a total of six UFOs and UFO type boats. We just never course-raced them. All the effort has gone and is going towards getting production boats built in a proper process. This actually answers Clean's question too. Will be bolting down south when there are a couple final spec boats to showcase.

 

DRC

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Can't hold a Worlds until you are an ISAF International Class unless you want to raise the ire of World Sailing and their threats of banning people who compete in an unsanctioned (by WS/ISAF) world championship.

 

I hope DC is far too busy with production to be fucking around with that paperwork just yet...

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I think an Intergalactic Championship would be more appropriate anyway.

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Sailing nonsense blah. Blah. Let me rephrase. Anyone given any thoughts to a get to get her race and have fun event?

 

Florida this fall?

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Dave, How 'bout a detailed video showing complete assembly of the UFO from the box it comes in to the water? Plenty of detail on all the parts and how they work / go together. Good for folks to preview what they would get. The whole enchilada!

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Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's

 

I'll PM when my boat arrives and you can rip it up. New Haven Area

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Is anyone else in the area thinking of doing the long distance dinghy race?

 

Yes, and fully support HPDO. Maybe we can convince Cedar Point to let us in the one design regatta?

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Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's

 

If possible, I'd like to demo my boat to the juniors in JSALIS - Area A ( if I get it in time. ) otherwise count me in for HPDO

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Hi all,

I've just read through this entire thread, which took quite a while over several sessions. The UFO checks all the right boxes for me as I got my start sailing in '83 on a Hobie 16 and never could get used to going slow in a displacement boat. Aside from Hobie 16s and 18s we've had an F-24 trimaran and an F-31 trimaran.

 

We went to the AC Cup in SF and were truly amazed at the power and speed of those boats. We'd been to an AC 45 world series event in San Diego the previous fall and the boat speeds in 10-15kts were just amazing. I'd looked carefully at a foiling cat at the Annapolis Boat Show last fall but the price tag and its complexity made me pause. Then I read the article in Sailing World a couple days ago. Wow.

 

I've not dingy sailed though so before I put in an order I'd really like to get out on the water on one to see how I like it. We're in Pismo Beach CA on the central coast just outside of San Luis Obispo, half way between LA and SF. If anyone out here is getting one I'd love the chance to check it out.

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Can't hold a Worlds until you are an ISAF International Class unless you want to raise the ire of World Sailing and their threats of banning people who compete in an unsanctioned (by WS/ISAF) world championship.

 

I hope DC is far too busy with production to be fucking around with that paperwork just yet...

 

All you have to do is call it the Intergalatics, they have no Jurisdiction over the universe

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Pretty much my exact feelings. Definitely will be weird to be on a tiny boat but I'm looking for something easy and don't want to drop a huge amount on a foiler when I'm not sure I'm up to the task, we don't get to sail a whole lot, etc. starting here and we can get a bigger cat if this works.

 

We aren't in CA but if you can make it to Texas you're welcome to sail ours when we get it. Hopefully may time frame.

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Pretty much my exact feelings. Definitely will be weird to be on a tiny boat but I'm looking for something easy and don't want to drop a huge amount on a foiler when I'm not sure I'm up to the task, we don't get to sail a whole lot, etc. starting here and we can get a bigger cat if this works.

 

We aren't in CA but if you can make it to Texas you're welcome to sail ours when we get it. Hopefully may time frame.

Hi Claire,

Thanks for the reply and kind offer. I'll keep that in mind if my travels take me near Waco.

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Hi all,

I've just read through this entire thread, which took quite a while over several sessions. The UFO checks all the right boxes for me as I got my start sailing in '83 on a Hobie 16 and never could get used to going slow in a displacement boat. Aside from Hobie 16s and 18s we've had an F-24 trimaran and an F-31 trimaran.

 

We went to the AC Cup in SF and were truly amazed at the power and speed of those boats. We'd been to an AC 45 world series event in San Diego the previous fall and the boat speeds in 10-15kts were just amazing. I'd looked carefully at a foiling cat at the Annapolis Boat Show last fall but the price tag and its complexity made me pause. Then I read the article in Sailing World a couple days ago. Wow.

 

I've not dingy sailed though so before I put in an order I'd really like to get out on the water on one to see how I like it. We're in Pismo Beach CA on the central coast just outside of San Luis Obispo, half way between LA and SF. If anyone out here is getting one I'd love the chance to check it out.

We have boats ordered to LA, SF and SD. The heavy hitter of the group is San Diego so far, but suffice to say there are boats within a drive from Pismo Beach. It's definitely always good to demo sail things before you order them, though if you started out sailing Hobie 16s I'm pretty sure you'll feel at home. There's a certain amount of nuance to tacking that Hobie people get the hang of really quickly. The boat has some spiritual kinship with the Hobie 14 and Alcort catfish, at least when it's floating.

 

DRC

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Claire, you're up to the task! I know it!

 

You have also provided a 50% increase in reasons to go to Waco -- sailing your UFO adds to watching a BU football game and hoping one can catch a glimpse of those home improvement TV people. I am certain the Waco Chamber of Commerce will be contacting you shortly for an award!

 

Blue, if you're out Texas way, we will have boats in Dallas, San Antonio, and Waco, all owned by people who have drunk the Kool Aid and want to have a blast foiling with others. Before I get in trouble, not San Antonio actually, but Canyon Lake. Don't want Charlie mad at me!

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Dave,

 

Accept this advice: Go to Pismo Beach to demo a UFO. Justify it however you want.

 

That part of Cali is a hidden gem. It's got all the best parts of Cali, with minimal amounts of the worst parts, which would be the huge crowds of people.

 

I will steer you to the wine, though you can hardly go wrong there.

 

Schmitt's out

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Dave,

 

Accept this advice: Go to Pismo Beach to demo a UFO. Justify it however you want.

 

That part of Cali is a hidden gem. It's got all the best parts of Cali, with minimal amounts of the worst parts, which would be the huge crowds of people.

 

I will steer you to the wine, though you can hardly go wrong there.

 

Schmitt's out

What TalonF4U says is true. To be honest though, Dave wouldn't get the kind of exposure from a marketing standpoint precisely because the population density is low compared to SF, LA, and SD. There's only ~250,000 people in the whole county of San Luis Obispo. Which is one reason we like it here ;-)

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Hi all,

I've just read through this entire thread, which took quite a while over several sessions. The UFO checks all the right boxes for me as I got my start sailing in '83 on a Hobie 16 and never could get used to going slow in a displacement boat. Aside from Hobie 16s and 18s we've had an F-24 trimaran and an F-31 trimaran.

 

We went to the AC Cup in SF and were truly amazed at the power and speed of those boats. We'd been to an AC 45 world series event in San Diego the previous fall and the boat speeds in 10-15kts were just amazing. I'd looked carefully at a foiling cat at the Annapolis Boat Show last fall but the price tag and its complexity made me pause. Then I read the article in Sailing World a couple days ago. Wow.

 

I've not dingy sailed though so before I put in an order I'd really like to get out on the water on one to see how I like it. We're in Pismo Beach CA on the central coast just outside of San Luis Obispo, half way between LA and SF. If anyone out here is getting one I'd love the chance to check it out.

We have boats ordered to LA, SF and SD. The heavy hitter of the group is San Diego so far, but suffice to say there are boats within a drive from Pismo Beach. It's definitely always good to demo sail things before you order them, though if you started out sailing Hobie 16s I'm pretty sure you'll feel at home. There's a certain amount of nuance to tacking that Hobie people get the hang of really quickly. The boat has some spiritual kinship with the Hobie 14 and Alcort catfish, at least when it's floating.

 

DRC

 

Hi Dave,

Thanks, that's great news. What's the ETA for delivery? Do you happen to know if the LA and SD folks are on this thread? Or how I might be able to get in touch with them?

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Hi Dave,

Thank you for keeping us involved the production updates. The ufo aluminum strut looks very massive (speak heavy) when compared to the Waszp vertical foil. I understand that it needs to be slightly longer as it starts above the water level resulting in a longer lever. Also, the Ufo should be generating more side force due to higher stability when in displacement mode. Yet it looks like a 1/2" wall thickness all around. Needless to say that you would get more struts per ton when you reduce the wall thickness. Well, at least the strut won't break when you hit a floating container should you want to participate in the next vendee globe. B)

Are the front strut and the rudder strut the same profile? Have you considered Waszp-like extruded aluminum for the horizontal foils?

If you need to run some finite elements analysis on a part like the strut, please contact me. I will be glad to help.

Cheers, Tom.

post-128890-0-35533700-1488206921.png vs foil_vert.png

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Hi Dave,

Thank you for keeping us involved the production updates. The ufo aluminum strut looks very massive (speak heavy) when compared to the Waszp vertical foil. I understand that it needs to be slightly longer as it starts above the water level resulting in a longer lever. Also, the Ufo should be generating more side force due to higher stability when in displacement mode. Yet it looks like a 1/2" wall thickness all around. Needless to say that you would get more struts per ton when you reduce the wall thickness. Well, at least the strut won't break when you hit a floating container should you want to participate in the next vendee globe. B)

Are the front strut and the rudder strut the same profile? Have you considered Waszp-like extruded aluminum for the horizontal foils?

If you need to run some finite elements analysis on a part like the strut, please contact me. I will be glad to help.

Cheers, Tom.

attachicon.gifUfo_strut.png vs foil_vert.png

I'm glad you asked. We're quite proud of how our foil package works out. What you're seeing is a two part optical illusion. Both on scale and lighting. The waszp uses the same extrusion for both the mainfoil and the rudder. Both have a modestly high cord but around the same thickness as the UFO mainfoil. In comparison though, the UFO mainfoil strut has a significantly smaller cord length (the hulls generate sideforce until you're taking off, so the loading is smaller than one might think). The low cord of the mainfoil is part of balancing the boat with the foil just forward of the mast. The rudder is far higher cord but thanks to the increased thickness of its section actually ends up with only one shear web and far lighter walls. Vs. the mainfoil it is actually lighter by the foot. Glare from the sun in the photo also helps that illusion out further. It's more like a 3/16ths wall in real life. This is all part of one of the key differances between the UFO and Waszp. The UFO is essentially a tandem wing configuration whereas the waszp is an inverse-loaded canard. We are a far more rudder-loaded boat.

 

We considered aluminum lifting foils and even tried some, but the design compromises required to go to straight extrusions and the limitations it imposes caused us to reject the concept. As it is we get to have proper tapers in our foils and even get beneficial twist in the mainfoil flap. They're also about 1.5kg lighter per foil than their composite cousins. It was a win-win. The rationale for aluminum struts was a lot simpler. 1. Rectangular planforms have a lot less downside when you've got a big old endplate on the bottom that serves its own useful purpose. 2. Aluminum comes out of the die cheap, strong and with exactly the same properties every single time. 3. The carbon ones kept breaking.

 

Regarding questions from other readers:

 

TalonF4U: Roger that.

 

Kindofblue: Mid summer is likely. You'd be coming in behind a big pile of people.

 

Now I need to get back to the war

 

DRC

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Hi all,

I've just read through this entire thread, which took quite a while over several sessions. The UFO checks all the right boxes for me as I got my start sailing in '83 on a Hobie 16 and never could get used to going slow in a displacement boat. Aside from Hobie 16s and 18s we've had an F-24 trimaran and an F-31 trimaran.

 

We went to the AC Cup in SF and were truly amazed at the power and speed of those boats. We'd been to an AC 45 world series event in San Diego the previous fall and the boat speeds in 10-15kts were just amazing. I'd looked carefully at a foiling cat at the Annapolis Boat Show last fall but the price tag and its complexity made me pause. Then I read the article in Sailing World a couple days ago. Wow.

 

I've not dingy sailed though so before I put in an order I'd really like to get out on the water on one to see how I like it. We're in Pismo Beach CA on the central coast just outside of San Luis Obispo, half way between LA and SF. If anyone out here is getting one I'd love the chance to check it out.

We have boats ordered to LA, SF and SD. The heavy hitter of the group is San Diego so far, but suffice to say there are boats within a drive from Pismo Beach. It's definitely always good to demo sail things before you order them, though if you started out sailing Hobie 16s I'm pretty sure you'll feel at home. There's a certain amount of nuance to tacking that Hobie people get the hang of really quickly. The boat has some spiritual kinship with the Hobie 14 and Alcort catfish, at least when it's floating.

 

DRC

 

Hi Dave,

Thanks, that's great news. What's the ETA for delivery? Do you happen to know if the LA and SD folks are on this thread? Or how I might be able to get in touch with them?

 

Hi all,

If you're in California and have a UFO on order, would you please PM me? I'd really like to see one (and would love to test sail one) before I put down a deposit for a UFO. Thanks.

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I just got my 5mm wetsuit delivered last week. No more ice on the lake. I am so ready for my boat, too. I want to stop pushing water and start flying.

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It's warm in Texas. I'm so ready for my boat.

Sorry. Our boat. The husband also get's half. Maybe.

 

I am always happy to acknowledge that my husband owns half the boat.

He sometimes gets a little peeved when I explain which half is his.

 

Needless to say I own the back half of our boat. :wub:

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I'm glad you asked. We're quite proud of how our foil package works out. What you're seeing is a two part optical illusion. Both on scale and lighting. The waszp uses the same extrusion for both the mainfoil and the rudder. Both have a modestly high cord but around the same thickness as the UFO mainfoil. In comparison though, the UFO mainfoil strut has a significantly smaller cord length (the hulls generate sideforce until you're taking off, so the loading is smaller than one might think). The low cord of the mainfoil is part of balancing the boat with the foil just forward of the mast. The rudder is far higher cord but thanks to the increased thickness of its section actually ends up with only one shear web and far lighter walls. Vs. the mainfoil it is actually lighter by the foot. Glare from the sun in the photo also helps that illusion out further. It's more like a 3/16ths wall in real life. This is all part of one of the key differances between the UFO and Waszp. The UFO is essentially a tandem wing configuration whereas the waszp is an inverse-loaded canard. We are a far more rudder-loaded boat.

 

We considered aluminum lifting foils and even tried some, but the design compromises required to go to straight extrusions and the limitations it imposes caused us to reject the concept. As it is we get to have proper tapers in our foils and even get beneficial twist in the mainfoil flap. They're also about 1.5kg lighter per foil than their composite cousins. It was a win-win. The rationale for aluminum struts was a lot simpler. 1. Rectangular planforms have a lot less downside when you've got a big old endplate on the bottom that serves its own useful purpose. 2. Aluminum comes out of the die cheap, strong and with exactly the same properties every single time. 3. The carbon ones kept breaking.

 

 

 

DRC

 

Dave,

What is the weight of each foil (fully assembled)?

Are the foils buoyant?

 

Thanks - and big fan of the project!

 

Kenny

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Dave,

 

 

What is the weight of each foil (fully assembled)?

Are the foils buoyant?

 

Thanks - and big fan of the project!

 

Kenny

 

 

 

Fully buoyant or not, it would make sense to keep the internal volume dry, e.g. by sealing either end or by filling with lightweight construction foam like material. Any gram counts in a 50kg boat.

 

Tom.

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Anyone buying a boat in the Midwest? I'll have one in Chicago.

We're in Northern Lower Michigan, Traverse City area, and pretty early in Dave's list. I've been sailing an old Prindle catamaran around Higgins lake, but there's a lot of shallow water there. The UFO probably deserves more and deeper waters, so I'll be playing around in Grand Traverse Bay or Little Traverse Bay in Petoskey.

 

Hey, we own a motel up here also. Come on up and visit!

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Yes!!!!

Intergalactic championship this fall? Florida? Somewhere else??!

Intergalactic championship this fall? Florida? Somewhere else??!

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Any other German fellows pushing the trigger to get an UFO? Else, my chances to qualify as Germany champion before the Intergalactics are pretty decent.

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Alright, I'm trying to be patient, but any update on production would be awesome. Even if it's taking longer than expected and we're looking fall arrival or something. Anyone got anything? Warm enough to get sailing down here in Texas!

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Looks like it's starting up. This is today from the Fulcrum facebook page.

post-33166-0-37198500-1490127558_thumb.jpg

 

Don't mind waiting a bit, still have sub zero temperatures here.

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Alright, I'm trying to be patient, but any update on production would be awesome. Even if it's taking longer than expected and we're looking fall arrival or something. Anyone got anything? Warm enough to get sailing down here in Texas!

Good things come to those who wait. I done a fair few product launches and seen a fair few where products where pushed out the door too soon, it never goes well. I am in no way saying Fulcrum is or would do that but give them time to get it right.

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Looks like it's starting up. This is today from the Fulcrum facebook page.

17390376_1837927383122970_5786183925895549483_o.jpg

 

Don't mind waiting a bit, still have sub zero temperatures here.

Correct. I oversaw and took part in the construction of hull #1 today (hull ID # U0001). It went pretty darn smoothly, for an instructional run. Things are looking good. I'm not proud of or happy about how much time it's taken to get to where we are. To a certain degree I'm extremely embarrassed since a good deal of how slowly it's gone is entirely my fault, not for want of effort but for want of project management savvy. It turns out I'm not very bright. Nonetheless, the production line is taking shape, the big pieces are finally being built and it's getting more real by the day.

 

Thank you all for your ongoing belief in UFOs

 

DRC

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Looks like it's starting up. This is today from the Fulcrum facebook page.17390376_1837927383122970_5786183925895549483_o.jpg

 

Don't mind waiting a bit, still have sub zero temperatures here.

 

Correct. I oversaw and took part in the construction of hull #1 today (hull ID # U0001). It went pretty darn smoothly, for an instructional run. Things are looking good. I'm not proud of or happy about how much time it's taken to get to where we are. To a certain degree I'm extremely embarrassed since a good deal of how slowly it's gone is entirely my fault, not for want of effort but for want of project management savvy. It turns out I'm not very bright. Nonetheless, the production line is taking shape, the big pieces are finally being built and it's getting more real by the day.

Thank you all for your ongoing belief in UFOs

DRC

You should not be embarrassed about anything what you any your team have done is nothing short of a miracle. Making one of something is easy. To set up a production line to make multiple identical units is very hard and complex. You should be extremely proud of what yo have, are and will achieve.

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Hi, Dave, looks great. I think I would have a problem on south shore Long Island in bay with eel grass. I wind surf

With a weed fin.any solution to this other than relocate?

Thanks doug

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Dave,

U0001? Do yourself a favor and use a couple more digits. We all hope this will become the laser of a foling era. 9999 units is what people call limited edition these days.

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On the drawing in Proboat UFO stands for Universal Foiling One-design a much more apt name, hopefully in a short while, certainly over the pond, it will be very 'identifiable'

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On the drawing in Proboat UFO stands for Universal Foiling One-design a much more apt name, hopefully in a short while, certainly over the pond, it will be very 'identifiable'

 

I have Proboat#166 with Daves article. The drawing is on page 24 and the boat is discussed as "UFO(Unidentified Foiling Object)". I was surprised that Dave would have changed it and that I didn't see it. So ,in fact, it hasn't been changed unless I missed it in some other location.

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On the drawing in Proboat UFO stands for Universal Foiling One-design a much more apt name, hopefully in a short while, certainly over the pond, it will be very 'identifiable'

 

I have Proboat#166 with Daves article. The drawing is on page 24 and the boat is discussed as "UFO(Unidentified Foiling Object)". I was surprised that Dave would have changed it and that I didn't see it. So ,in fact, it hasn't been changed unless I missed it in some other location.

 

To clarify, it's neither. It's the UFO. The acronym is completely secondary and can be whatever you can fit into the three letters. Most of the good names from mythology, ornithology and entomology were already played out but the modern folk myth of the UFO fit the bill perfectly. That sense of "oh my god my perception of the world is permanently changed and now I'm one of the UFO crazies" fit with the experience of foiling for the first time perfectly. It stuck like glue.

 

To answer some other questions raised, eel grass is a thing up in RI too. You can fly with some on your foils. If you smack into a clump, you will probably land and need to reset. Still good for recreational sailing. U0001 was the most numbers we could get in the serial number system allowed. We will need to reset at the 10,000th boat.

 

DRC

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I think we can all confidently say we would rather have a really late delivery than a boat that's poorly made or where the early versions suck compared to the later ones. So ya, they will get here when they get here, and it's hard to wait though.

 

Plus, I would assume all of us have at least one other boat to play with in the meantime.

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I think we can all confidently say we would rather have a really late delivery than a boat that's poorly made or where the early versions suck compared to the later ones. So ya, they will get here when they get here, and it's hard to wait though.

 

Plus, I would assume all of us have at least one other boat snow shovel to play with in the meantime.

Fixed it.

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In reply to "kind of blue", we have a demo boat on its way from R. I. and will have boats available here in Big Bear Lake, Ca. in June.

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Hi Dave,

I like the mast hole being open at the bottom. I reinforced the mast hole bottom of my 11ft toy with a stainless steel beaker, glass fibre and some epoxy after the first season. The (PTFE?) ferrule rim is quite small in surface area, resulting in high surface pressure. Being located at a larger radius, there will be more travel distance per rotation, too. And there will be much sheeting ;-). Will the UFO have a replaceable PTFE washer mounted to the hull to facilitate rotation and to protect the gelcoat from attrition?

Will you seal the vertical struts to keep the water out and maintain any buoyancy there is?

 

Cheers, Tom.

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In reply to "kind of blue", we have a demo boat on its way from R. I. and will have boats available here in Big Bear Lake, Ca. in June.

Woohoo! Please let me know when we can come down for a demo ride.

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given the sail-porn potential of this thread it is still seriously lacking image and video content.

It's all cool to talk about those tits in theory, but I want so see some action!!!

come on! UFO vs Wasp, is that all there is so far?

 

shoreline showing crashing moth in waves and then the UFO in ultra flat water? it that the best you've got?

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