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    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

Steve and Dave Clarks Unidentified Foiling Object

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On 6/21/2017 at 4:59 AM, treef said:

Hi Treff,

I have to ask, what is a cat flap batten?

I took me about three hours to get two boats off a trailer, carry to the beach (only one dolly was available, waiting on the second), and rigged, ready to sail.  There was a steep learning curve on the first; the second one went much faster.  The most difficult part was getting the sail up simply because the bolt rope and track had never been used and its a tight fit.  Took some "convincing" along... will bring some McLube next time.....

 

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23 hours ago, Tom4FunOnly said:

kindofblue: I suppose Treff is referring to this (red) vertical batten.

 

Cat Flap Batten.png

Huh, interesting. I hadn't noticed that before in pics. Thanks.

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I sorta can't resist sharing this one. The subject is a ~215lb adult keelboat sailor in 8-12 knots of breeze. When I asked the guy in question what his highest level of dinghy experience was he frankly stated "recreational laser sailing at the most". Two other guys of a similar age and skill level sailed the boat that same day with the same results. The boat, set to low ride-height facilitated an initially stable "sandbox mode" for them to take their first steps into foiling and, more generally, their first steps into any apparent wind sailing whatsoever. Fun way to spend a weekend. 

DRC
 

 

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Dave,

Listening to your commentary about wanting the boat to turtle...I'm glad it came to a stop eventually.  Any issues / tips for shallow water / righting from a capsize / not getting the mast stuck in the mud / how to deal with righting if the mast is in the mud without damaging the entire setup?  

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29 minutes ago, wpbeardsley said:

Dave,

Listening to your commentary about wanting the boat to turtle...I'm glad it came to a stop eventually.  Any issues / tips for shallow water / righting from a capsize / not getting the mast stuck in the mud / how to deal with righting if the mast is in the mud without damaging the entire setup?  

Sure. The shorthand is don't worry too much about it. Virtually every outing the boat took throughout testing started and finished in the shallow highly tidal kickemuit river. To date we have not seen even minor damage from contact or jamming in the bottom, and that's not for want of trying.

Essentially flex in the spar tip is the key to its resilience. The more rigid the tip of a spar, the more liable it is to snapping. Our tip is very whippy and thus laps up misuse without complaint, seemingly ad infinitum. We've been using spars in this configuration for a year now and none have failed from this or any other phenomenon.

As far as righting from a turtle goes, there isn't much to it. Grab the leeward righting handle and lean out off the leeward hull. It comes up and if you're in the bottom at all, the wind and wave action do a ton to work you out. This is one of the reasons the thread is in dinghy anarchy. If you've sailed a dinghy in shallow water, you've probably done this. Now you're capsized rather than inverted. Move to the next righting handle up on what was the windward hull. Lean out and the boat rights quickly. One of the secrets to this is that the spars only weigh 12 pounds. If it's really windy day, the boat may want to do a full 'frisco roll once the rig catches the wind. The fix is to use both righting handles. As the catmaran comes over on top of you, you can anchor the whole thing laterally as you hang out under the tramp and this will arrest any further roll. Then duck the hull get on board and go sailing. 

There's nothing safe about a boat that can't turtle. Even if you for some reason are rendered incapable of righting a turtled craft you are orders of magnitude safer than a dark speck bobbing up and down as your miraculously unturtled boat glides downwind faster than you can swim. Maybe I'm just traumatized from losing A-cats and F18s that didn't belong to me on modestly heavy air days, but for my money I'm happier going out on my own in a boat that I need to spend a little extra time righting some times than a boat that ditches me when it has the chance.

 

DRC

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We had a catamaran get away -- and fast -- from a crew during a squall a few years back. By the time the safety boat got to it it was almost a half mile downwind of the crew. All came in safe but watching it from the beach (I saw the squall line early and came ashore) was a bit horrifying.

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As someone who has had a long swim home after my mighty Hobie Wave ditched me and made it several miles down the lake, I'm all for turtling. 

Agree, where are we at on boats! Can't wait. 

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On 6/30/2017 at 11:27 AM, Claire1000 said:

As someone who has had a long swim home after my mighty Hobie Wave ditched me and made it several miles down the lake, I'm all for turtling. 

Agree, where are we at on boats! Can't wait. 

Picking mine up on Friday and bringing it back to Northern Michigan!  I don't know what number I am, though...

I look forward to the boat turtling a bit more now, days after watching my old Prindle sail away downwind, leaving my son and I in the water, surprised at how fast that 'universal fit' wing seat collapsed under us.

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Picking mine up on Saturday, also don't know what hull number I am, but don't really care at this point - just want the boat and a chance to practice.  

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My UFO (009) is finally in my possession - looking forward to sailing it for the first time this weekend.  Picked it up from the Clark Compound in RI.  Dave pulled off a foiling tack in a UFO last week, but don't ask him if he has video or step-by-step instructions...he is too busy assembling boats.  Exciting news though.  

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In the instructions written by Merde2,  'How to rig the UFO without tipping the hull over', I thought the image for step #5 was a little unclear, so I thought I'd post an updated version which shows the retaining clip on the trailing edge of the main foil.

 

 

DSC_2927.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Are people picking up their boats in person cutting in line before those that require shipping?

 

I have no idea.  My boat is 009.  If you want your boat shipped, I think Dave has the capability to do that if your boat is ready.  Seems to be an issue of finishing up all of the boats to make them ready to ship.  

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On 6/19/2017 at 7:42 PM, treef said:

Numbers 9 and 10 have been released from the mothership

 

3 minutes ago, wpbeardsley said:

I have no idea.  My boat is 009.  If you want your boat shipped, I think Dave has the capability to do that if your boat is ready.  Seems to be an issue of finishing up all of the boats to make them ready to ship.  

How many 009 hulls are there?

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On 7/11/2017 at 4:48 AM, Claire1000 said:

Can one of you with a boat make friends with a go pro person? The lack of videos is killing me. 

Same here. People report 77 ufo sightings - most with video - last week, alone. There must be substantially more flying saucers than green foilers. 10 boats (001 to 009 & 009.2) and so little coverage. Pbegle must have been abducted weeks ago after receiving his alien tech hull #001. Never seen again.

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Charlie, the hold up for shipping has been the custom boxes, but that is now sorted.  Our boats are ready, but getting them boxed and coordinated with shipping has added delay. 

Regarding the question of whether people have "cut" if they pick them up, my guess is yes, but again it's a transportation issue.

I don't  care to drive 1,700 miles each way to get the boat!  That would take years off my life....

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TN: oh yes - no way I'd make that drive.....and as stated before, I would much rather wait awhile than receive a boat with teething issues.  I was just curious as to the queue position of those taking deliveries before us.  I naively thought purchase sequence would correlate to delivery sequence.  I never gave a thought to shipping issues until I learned of the boxes.

It makes perfect sense to me that early-production boats should be limited to local deliveries: it is much easier to tweak a new boat when it is around the corner than when it is 1700 miles away.  The builder can also work out logistical issues by watching how the boat is used - much better than a VIRB video.

She Who Must Be Obeyed reminded me that I committed the following sins: 1) prematurely started renting dock space in February, 2) prematurely paid for the boat in April, and 3) still have no boat.  SWMBO watched the videos of the kids sailing the boat and promptly notified me that my penance was to forfeit ownership of the boat to her.  (She may claim it, but I am pretty sure she'll let me sail it.)

Anyway, I still have the dock space.  Hope to fill it soon.

Charlie

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5 hours ago, True North said:

Charlie, the hold up for shipping has been the custom boxes, but that is now sorted.  Our boats are ready, but getting them boxed and coordinated with shipping has added delay. 

Regarding the question of whether people have "cut" if they pick them up, my guess is yes, but again it's a transportation issue.

I don't  care to drive 1,700 miles each way to get the boat!  That would take years off my life....

Precisely. Given that we've been slow out the gate, I have though it only right to hand over the goods to anybody who's willing to come pick up at their convenience. The most extreme example is Tewtops1 who drove straight up from the gulf coast to pick up Mississippi Space Shuttle. Last I heard from him he's in the jaws of a dilemma around water contamination and has been occasionally risking the flesh-eating bacteria down there to get some sky miles in anyway.

We're pushing it as hard as we can push. All I can say is bear with us and thank you all for doing so to date.

DRC

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On 6/12/2017 at 10:28 AM, vaplaya said:

Are any Demos planned in the Mid-Atlantic (Chesapeake Bay area) this summer?  Or, is anyone from this area getting one and willing to give an old Beachcat sailor a try on their boat this summer? 

I am very interested on the boat, however I have various injuries accumulated over the years and would like to see if I can sail it relatively pain free. 

Just checking.

Cheers, 

 

That is too bad that there is not going to be demos in the Chesapeake Bay area.

 

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If our boat isn't ready until August (looks likely), we may have it shipped to upstate NY for a week so we can play with it while we are up there. If anyone in that area in August wants to see it, let me know. 

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18 hours ago, vaplaya said:

 

That is too bad that there is not going to be demos in the Chesapeake Bay area.

 

Who said that? 

 

DRC

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On 7/14/2017 at 1:12 PM, Dave Clark said:

Who said that? 

 

DRC

It is more of who didn't say anything.

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Hi Dave, 

Tolachi is right.  Silence also speaks :-).

I asked the question back in June with no response. Nevertheless from your question it seems like there may be Demos in this area.

Thanks, 

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Speeking of silence: Is anyone sailing his fresh ufo? Nowadays that everyone tweets/snapchats/facebooks every minor non-event, it is amazing how little footage of the ufo there is. Actioncams anyone?

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You have to put extra effort into getting out a camera, owning a camera, etc. Much of the time people prefer to just go sailing. I suspect that is the reason Tom.
But Dave posted fresh video on the Fulcrum page just a few days ago.

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3 hours ago, Tom4FunOnly said:

Speeking of silence: Is anyone sailing his fresh ufo? Nowadays that everyone tweets/snapchats/facebooks every minor non-event, it is amazing how little footage of the ufo there is. Actioncams anyone?

Looking forward to it, and I'll film if I can get a chase boat out, but my fresh ufo is entirely too fresh, sitting unused in the garage waiting for foils.

When I saw Dave a few weeks ago and picked most of it up, he looked busy enough for two people.

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Haven't been able to sail my boat yet due to other life commitments but I'm expecting that to change in the next couple of weeks.  No promises on videos since I am not too slick with video editing - maybe if I can make it work on my wife's Mac...I'll at least be able to put some thoughts together at some point.  

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Thus far, none of the images of UFOs seems to show numbers on the sails. Are sail numbers in fact included with the boat? Is there a relation between hull number and sail number? If no sail numbers, how would one distinguish individual boats in a regatta? I ask because there are already 7 UFO entries for the High Performance Regatta at the American Yacht club in Rye, NY.

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I don't think sails come with sail numbers but the hulls are stamped on the transom.  We'll need to add sail numbers, but that is a minor expense and easy to deal with - I am not concerned about that part.

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It’s been quiet in the UFO thread so here’s a bump and an update from #8.


After some time in big boats offshore, I got back to the UFO last Sunday.  Very frustrating: 7 to 9 knots of breeze; could not get the boat to lift.  A tease.  Though I did learn a couple of things.


I launch off a beach into a narrow channel with shallow water each side.  At low tide, the UFO draws too much to cross the sand flats.  So I tried sailing out with the mainfoil retracted and the rudder about one-third down.  The boat sails really quite well in that configuration.  It’s quick, too.  And downspeed tacks are no problem with the mainfoil retracted.  An easy and comfortable way to get out to where ever you are going; and an equally good way to laze back in when you are tired.  Also learned that the handy little pouch on the foot of the sail is perfect for the halyard tail.


Went back out yesterday evening with much funner results.  Breeze started light and I was again annoyed, but just as I was ready to bail and head in, a little puff came along and bam, the boat lifted right up.  The wind built to a nice 12 to 15.  I spent an hour-and-a-half blasting back and forth.  I learned lots.  I booked my first death roll, flying with too much windward heel and slammed into an untimely big wave, resulting in me completely under water, feet in the straps, with the boat capsizing to windward on top of me.  No issues whatsoever righting the boat and getting going again.  Another noteworthy moment when ripping on a reach, bore off downwind too quickly, the wand came well clear of the water as the humming noise from the foils became a high-pitched keen and my inner monologue went something like “oh shit oh shit oh shit” just before it all ended in a blur of spray and an unhealthy ingestion of a great deal of salt water.


This was my fourth time on the boat but only my second outing in adequate breeze, and I am getting far more comfortable with the boat.  That said, I recall my demo day with Dave in November, when I relinquished the boat to him and he took off, flying along perfectly steady, as if it was tea time and he was having a cuppa.  Dave finesses the boat gracefully, making imperceptible adjustments with no drama.  He dances with it like he’s Fred Astaire.  I’m dancing like the gopher in Caddyshack.


I’ve had a couple of rides so far when the boat is balanced, stable, in flight and just tearing along, and I can look around and enjoy the moment.  More to come with practice.  For now this is apparently what I am doing best: resting.  Exhausted, but happy.
 

image (1).jpg

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Awesome!!! Thanks so much for the update. Ours is getting pretty close. Sent our money for the boat, box $186, shipping $500, insurance $100, boat cover $230 and foil cover $90.

 

 

 

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Are you located anywhere near Austin?  I am there quite often and would love a test sail if that is possible.

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Forgive me if this has been asked and answered, but what does it draw with the foils down?

I know you can sail in displacement mode to get out to deeper water, but how deep does it need to be to lower the foils and get going (and not ground them if/when you come down)?

Looks really cool to me; I'd love to have one (and the time to sail it).

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The deepest the boat can get is 54 inches ( 1370mm or 4'6)

This is when you are way aft with the rudder all the way down.

The rudder is 6" deeper than the main foil

In this attitude your speed will be as close to 0 as it gets.

Generally speaking 4' of water is enough unless you are flying, then something like 18" is deep enough if you are good enough. 

If you stop, make sure you tip over to windward or it can get expensive.

SHC

 

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Steve - I am very impressed with your mast/boom/spreader/rotator mechanism.  It seems like quite an efficient way (both mechanically and monetarily) to stiffen and rotate the mast while also tensioning the sail.  I kept looking up at it while I was sailing around yesterday and thinking "this what the Laser should have had".

Thank you Steve, good job!

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On 8/9/2017 at 8:44 PM, Charlie P Mayer said:

Canyon Lake - need sailing buddies (that means you RT!)  

Let's pick a date!

Hey, I'm heading up there in a few minutes to work on the Sprint.  And plan on dragging the Weta up tomorrow to race on Sunday.  

 

So maybe I can provide chase at some point.

 

Larry

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Received delivery of UFO no. 5.  Very well done -- the finish is very, very nice.

New company means some growing pains, including needing to create a shipping checklist, but the box in which the boat was shipped held up to perfection.

Our wind machine if off this time of year in North Texas, but it might be marginal this weekend to actually get up in the air.  Regardless, it will get wet, and I will take some pics.

Charlie's pics of his boat really ramped up the activity on the UFO Foiling in Texas FB page.  Hope to have some UFOs foiling in Texas soon!!

 

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I think Dave is going with Dynamic dollies exclusively now - wheels are on the outside, but the concept is very similar - no front piece, use a leash in the front, clip the boat in at the sides with lines tied into the dolly and carabiners (there are spectra loops on the sides of the boat at the proper dolly attachment point), and so far at least for me, hold one of the bows as the leash is held tight when pushing or pulling.  Seems to work, not too bulky.  

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The dolly, as WPB described, is standard with the boat.  It works really well, is light, and the wheels are quickly and easily removed.  Much better than the model shown above.

One other thing.  Having put my foils together, despite the fact I will be keeping my boat at what is essentially a parking lot, I will be tipping the  boat over to install the foils.  It was a chore for me to get the rod which imparts tightness to the foil through the guide hole.  M2 went through a very thorough description of how to install the foils on the concrete, but I just can't see doing that....

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I found it easier to move the boat around while grasping the rudder rather than a bow - if you lift the bow too much you scrape a foil.

There is no tow bar facing forward because it would hit the main foil.  

High quality dolly, and as TN says, easy to assemble, disassemble, and hook up.  Good job, Dave.

My boat (er, my wife's *) will live on a dock, fully assembled and covered.  Worried a bit about the mast and booms in the sun, though.

* she named it "Squirt"

As TN says, the rods can be difficult to guide through those tiny little holes - one reason we decided to leave it fully assembled.

(That, and a 5 minute arrive-to-launch time.)

Has anyone tried sailing it without the foils - for light airs or beginners?

Charlie

 

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23 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

I would like to paint the booms and mast, including sail track,  to protect against uv degradation.  Any ideas?   Plastic wrap like for a car?  Paint?   Tape?

Hi Charlie,

I'm using Harken's Hull Kote polish (related to their Sail Kote) that has UV protection on both the hulls of our Weta as well as the carbon fiber bits.

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On 8/15/2017 at 7:35 PM, Charlie P Mayer said:

 

Has anyone tried sailing it without the foils - for light airs or beginners?

Charlie

 

I asked about leaving the horizontals off for just that, way back in the thread. Can't find the post but I think the answer  from Steve/Dave was something like you could leave them off or just dial the lift out of foils and it would low ride OK.

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ok: have you used that product?  Is it a spray varnish?

kob:  I researched the product but could find nothing about how uv-resistant it really is.  Is it like a short-lived sunscreen or more like a uv impermeable paint?

I have a 4 year old car with 3M clear film coating on it. If that film is available in lime green, I'll try that.  100% uv blockage. 

DS:  thank you.  I'll get out on it in two weeks and try it with the wand high out of the water.   When I assembled it, my impression is the design seems to be "no wand = no lift" (or very little) when the foils are set to neutral.  Removing the foils is easy - putting them back on, not so easy, so I don't know if I will try that.  My wife says to just put it on minimum lift and let people learn it as is.

 

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2 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

I asked about leaving the horizontals off for just that, way back in the thread. Can't find the post but I think the answer  from Steve/Dave was something like you could leave them off or just dial the lift out of foils and it would low ride OK.

Simply put, it's not about taking the foils off so much as gating them to "hyperplaning" mode and no further. Choking the wand up until the foils will lift no further than the planing waterline means that the foils generate a crazy amount of planing assist and then push no further upward. Taking the horizontal off makes it a very very short catamaran with a very very tall rig. Don't do it. I do not condone it. It will be far less fun than a day of planing around at about 10knots with the foil lift keeping you there and pitch-stabilizing the boat.

 

DRC

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On 16/08/2017 at 0:09 AM, Bill's Sock Puppet said:

Is this dolly standard or an option?

 

I'm curious about the sailing jeans. Are they waterproof?

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8 hours ago, BR3232 said:

I'm curious about the sailing jeans. Are they waterproof?

Dolly is standard. Sailing jeans were prototypes from the Levi Strauss Watersport collection. The gromits really screw up the gelcoat, though. Levi has opted to take another year to develop before launching them.

 

Also I haven't been on this forum for a while. Regarding some earlier questions about demo activity and how "silence speaks" on the promotional end. I'm pretty much doing zero promotional work at present until I've shipped completed boats out to my early adopters who have displayed heroic amounts of patience thus far through all the delays. Right now they are priorities 1-100 and future sales will be in the future. It would be wrong to go on a road show when I know that the shop runs faster with me in it both building and directing building. I am morally obliged to keep my head down and work round the clock on production. Or at least that's how I see it. The good news is we're steadily increasing our speed of output each week.

 

DRC

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On 9/23/2016 at 0:41 PM, Dave Clark said:

I already have a concept for a reeeally slick 3 boat trailer with inset parts box... Free with every bulk order of 3 or more boats??

DRC

Is there life after HPDO?  Does anyone have plans for any other UFO events in the fall / winter / spring?

 

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Could anyone comment on how this package might transport in/on the back of a pickup truck (Toyota Tacoma). Would the boat fit across the top of the bed? I currently don't have a trailer and would be looking to avoid purchasing one if I don't need to.

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15 minutes ago, Bcparfitt said:

Could anyone comment on how this package might transport in/on the back of a pickup truck (Toyota Tacoma). Would the boat fit across the top of the bed? I currently don't have a trailer and would be looking to avoid purchasing one if I don't need to.

The overall dimensions of the UFO are Length: 120" (w/o rudder and wand) and Width:  67"
The bed dimensions of a Toyota Tacoma varies with Year and Cab Size.
Can you strap 2x4's across the top of the bed? 

Screen-Shot-2016-02-16-at-12.07.48-AM.png

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We are planning to see if we can mount it on the truck. Will report once I have an answer. Boat didn't make it to lake george but hoping it gets to Texas in the next few weeks. 

The texans are planning our first race mid September in austin. 

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On 8/18/2017 at 10:51 AM, Will1073 said:

I'm trying to convince the girl that we need to add a UFO to the fleet. Anyone ordered theirs in black?

Black isn't an option anymore. Only white hulls from the factory.

 

If anyone really, really wants one now, I'm open to selling hull 3 located in central CT. PM me

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Wand needs to be set way longer to foil easily and consistently in flat water, I'm sure they'll figure out eventually. Another big one is getting over heel-to-leeward syndrome. Can't tell if the bow up attitude is lack of rudder lift or sitting too far back, probably both, Dave?

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5 hours ago, BR3232 said:

Wand needs to be set way longer to foil easily and consistently in flat water, I'm sure they'll figure out eventually. Another big one is getting over heel-to-leeward syndrome. Can't tell if the bow up attitude is lack of rudder lift or sitting too far back, probably both, Dave?

Simple. 75% of the sailors in that video had never sailed any form of foiler before that camera started rolling. The fourth guy has about 3 hours of experience under his belt. The short wand setup is for beginner foiling, as it keeps both hulls close to the water for reserve stability. To me, a good beginner mode is about taking the danger out of wrong answers, not maximizing the output on the right answer. Over heeling to weather is just a matter of learning the roll response of the boat. When Dave Bradly made the video, I don't think he was doing it to showcase grand prix foiling capacity. In the facebook comments on this video he wrote "This was the validation that I had been looking for on the UFO. Don't need to weigh 130lbs, don't need to have cat like reflexes, don't need to be an Olympic athlete. Foiled in the first minute.". I think the video is about how consistently the boat forgives inexperience.

DRC

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Yes, we had the wand quite high for low ride height. My feelings on this is that is a good mode for your first outing, but if we had more time that day I think everyone would have been up for flying higher. We were also sailing inside the Frog Pond on Cuttyhunk, which is a pretty small and crowded playgound (although were were "flying" on the old seaplane channel!) and it was really puffy as the wind was coming over the land, so we were trying to keep things pretty dialed down. You will probably notice in the video the same couple of boats in the background as each person got foiling, that was where all the hills, trees and houses drop away to a low barrier beach and clear wind.

We started the day off with not enough rudder lift, so were definitely a bit bow up. I adjusted it for my last ride and got much better level flight. Although Dave B did not get video, I can confirm that Tracy and my nine year old daughter got fully flying sailing 2-up. A super fun day, and yes, a UFO fits nicely on the forward tramp of a 52' catamaran!

 

Ezra

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Charlie,

tighten up your ufo or it could be flying without you. Do not let Harvey take out 5-10% of the ufo fleet at once. All the best wishes to all y'all down in Texas. Harvey should know better: Don't mess with Texas!

Cheers, Tom.

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I called my insurance company yesterday to get my UFO insured.  The entire state of Texas is redlined from purchasing boat insurance until August 30, so despite the fact my boat is in Dallas, no insurance.  Harvey is a terrible storm, and we're all thinking of our friends on the coast.

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A video. Finally. Thanks!

And glad the insurance industry is as nieve about the size of Texas as the rest of everyone else. The weather here in Dallas is nice. Too funny. 

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