HFC Hunter

Junk on the trunk

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I was going to mention she is looking for lifts and headers but I don't think it would sound right.

Well done Yigael.

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Nice one Yigs. Post some offerings or we won't keep taking to you.

The gunnel on that scow looks wet on a good day, scary on a medium one. Sad story - got any happier ones? With tits?

 

HFC,

 

The boat that Yigs posted looks like one of the numerous hulls that Colvin did based on a scaled up and down version of the my boat.

 

Yes, these boats are quite tender but if built according to plan, they are very seaworthy.

 

The lee rails are frequently awash but the tall bows are very difficult to bury.

 

Best to keep the lee portlights dogged and wear tall boots.

 

Steve

 

cB0CMRx.jpg

Neat shot! Who needs freeboard? Just use the high side.

The design (above waterline) looks like a mini version of some of the 1900s coastal scows used for trans-shipping loads from ships to town up the rivers etc. High bows for punching over river bars. Though I'm guessing the yacht above isn't flat bottomed? (Edit- ie the Baltic one.)

 

Yigs: nice photo of a well cared stern. You'll fit well here. I'd hoped this thread would also post good as well as bad examples of transom cargo mgmt, but you took this in a pleasing direction.

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@Panope

 

There was investigation after accident and recovery and they found out that wheelhouse flooding started between 21,3 and 25,3 deg of heel, positive stability ends around 90 deg of heel and constant safe heel for sailing was... between 10 and 12 deg only.

It was not original Colvin 45 any more she was longer, she got this stern castle and bulb on the bow with truster inside. And original ballast ofc. Boat was known as being unable to tack without engine help.

 

Thanks for that report, Yigael.

 

I'd love to read the whole thing. Any chance you have a link to it?

 

Steve

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post-123694-0-63745000-1491586002_thumb.

 

Low cut headsails - there is good seamanship to have deck... hand on the bow. Sharp lookout is essential. :rolleyes:

 

Damn, Yigael, that is is a quality figurehead! Almost as good as my all time fave, the girl with the coffee cup in the companionway back in the CA 36 forum many years ago (that I can no longer find :( )

 

I am the Leg Man, I am the Leg Man, I am the Walrus!

 

Re: your sig. I can't read Hebrew, but shouldn't that be on the right side of the page?

 

Thanks for brightening up the thread.

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@Pano Help yourself ;)

http://pkbwm.gov.pl/images/uchwaly_raporty/raporty/raporty_obce/FINAL_REPORT_WIM_15_15_Down_North.pdf

@Rattus

It's from the right to left ofc, but copy pasted it from another place where you can do only basic formatting in signature. Now it's better. :D

It says "Everything is an illusion"

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post-123694-0-63745000-1491586002_thumb.

 

Low cut headsails - there is good seamanship to have deck... hand on the bow. Sharp lookout is essential. :rolleyes:

 

Damn, Yigael, that is is a quality figurehead! Almost as good as my all time fave, the girl with the coffee cup in the companionway back in the CA 36 forum many years ago (that I can no longer find :( )

 

I am the Leg Man, I am the Leg Man, I am the Walrus!

 

Re: your sig. I can't read Hebrew, but shouldn't that be on the right side of the page?

 

Thanks for brightening up the thread.

 

Here you go, happy hunting. Please repost the pic when you find it. http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=67248

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#6914 Cruising Anarchy whatever classic cruiser: post #6914 Paps

Anarchist

 

Members

PipPipPipPipPipPipPip

7,158 posts

Posted 27 June 2008 - 07:51 AM

Nice models Joe.

 

Since its Friday down here, what is something you would love to see coming up the companionway??????

 

 

Maybe this??

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=67248&page=70#

met_art_bak_15_16.jpg

post-54771-0-93870600-1491710626_thumb.jpg

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Was it this one? It seems she forgot the coffee?

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Interesting read, thanks. Questions for anybody:

I assume the bulbous bow added by the PO, aside from holding a bow thruster, was of no benefit at 7 knots max speed?

 

Was the improvement of the positive stability range from 98' as designed to about 130' merely from her resting on the sterncastle? I realize the positive stability range was irrelevant due to the flooding of the deck and pilot house starting at 10-12' and 23-25', plus her inability to shed water off her deck.

 

They were reaching. Am I correct they fell off when hit by the gust out of habit, to keep her from rounding up and getting caught in irons, expecting her to recover until it was too late? The report said they tried to luff the main but the boom dug into the sea. Staysails and jibs were not released.

 

She escaped Polish scrutiny for a couple years with her fake Canadian recreational registry and commercial use. Was that shortcoming unique to Poland, or could it happen elsewhere?

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The problem is - if you appear to be a small pleasure craft of foreign flag and you aren't leave Schengen area probability of official inspection is negligible unless you have some kind of accident or tax trouble.

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I've been asking why the did it to that boat... That dodger/pilot house look like taken from completely different boat... Not to say word about that BTS tower behind.

I used to think that i know the ugliest hard dodger in the universe and closest neighbourhood.

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The stern is down a few inches too.

 

Needs more chain in the bow to sit on its lines ....

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The boat try hard to look like she means business. Her anchor is deployed. I'm not sure if I'm brave enough to see it retrieved :D

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I could at least live on that. My only question is how the hell does that Main clear the backstay??

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I could at least live on that. My only question is how the hell does that Main clear the backstay??

 

my guess is there is no roach, this one doesn't even have battens:

 

5944048_20160926050950271_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

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Junk on the trunk and ugly dodger. Extra points?

 

3B9F70F4-0AAF-408B-8CD5-4EBC69B38530.jpg

 

Does the energy produced by the wind generator equal the energy lost due to it's shadow on the solar panels?

 

Steve

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I wonder if there used to be a mizzen mast?

 

The back porch might be overall more useful.

 

Water bottles on the bow?

They are sterilizing in the sunlight.

 

 

 

Who the hell was that who thought that would work?

Wasn't that armpit sterilising his toothbrush?

 

 

I'm pretty sure it was Brent who was bragging about the cost-savings he achieved by using sunlight shining through the portlight glass to sterilize his toothbrush. Much spirited discussion ensued about the relative U.V. transmission characteristics of glass and plastic, the amount of U.V. energy absorbed by a microbe, and how foolish people using electric U.V. toothbrush sterilizers were wasting their "freedom chips" and delaying their cruising by many years while they earned the money to pay unqualified ripoff-artist boat designers. Apparently a job = slavery.

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That looks like a Clipper 26 on crack.

I'm almost hoping the vane on the wind generator is connected in a steam-punk style down to the rudder for selfsteerage. I'll add a second to Pano's call on solar panel disruption.

And I'm curious... what does a spinning dynamo do to a radar mounted 1m away? And does the deck have a dash of reverse sheer or is it just an unfortunate distortion and she's really got Concordia-sweet lines?

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I wonder if there used to be a mizzen mast?

 

The back porch might be overall more useful.

 

Water bottles on the bow?

 

They are sterilizing in the sunlight.

 

 

 

Who the hell was that who thought that would work?

Wasn't that armpit sterilising his toothbrush?

I'm pretty sure it was Brent who was bragging about the cost-savings he achieved by using sunlight shining through the portlight glass to sterilize his toothbrush. Much spirited discussion ensued about the relative U.V. transmission characteristics of glass and plastic, the amount of U.V. energy absorbed by a microbe, and how foolish people using electric U.V. toothbrush sterilizers were wasting their "freedom chips" and delaying their cruising by many years while they earned the money to pay unqualified ripoff-artist boat designers. Apparently a job = slavery.

His sort of freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

https://youtu.be/OTHRg_iSWzM

Janis (via Kris)

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That boat is unfortunate.

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99% of cruisers I come across should have read this article and others before spending thousands on the junk trunk shit. There are so many alternatives out there to solve power, dingy storage and antenna issues than doing what they do and in many cases they will save money instead of paying for their S/S guy's kids to through college.

 

http://nordkyndesign.com/heavy-weather-dynamics-upwind-sailing-windage-and-resistance/

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99% of cruisers I come across should have read this article and others before spending thousands on the junk trunk shit. There are so many alternatives out there to solve power, dingy storage and antenna issues than doing what they do and in many cases they will save money instead of paying for their S/S guy's kids to through college.

 

http://nordkyndesign.com/heavy-weather-dynamics-upwind-sailing-windage-and-resistance/

 

Really sensible article. His boat is also really interesting and well designed IMHO

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99% of cruisers I come across should have read this article and others before spending thousands on the junk trunk shit. There are so many alternatives out there to solve power, dingy storage and antenna issues than doing what they do and in many cases they will save money instead of paying for their S/S guy's kids to through college.

 

http://nordkyndesign.com/heavy-weather-dynamics-upwind-sailing-windage-and-resistance/

 

Here https://www.amazon.com/Seaworthiness-C-Marchaj/dp/1888671092 and here https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Yacht-Design-Lars-Larsson/dp/0071826408 is many thing omitted in this article.

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99% of cruisers I come across should have read this article and others before spending thousands on the junk trunk shit. There are so many alternatives out there to solve power, dingy storage and antenna issues than doing what they do and in many cases they will save money instead of paying for their S/S guy's kids to through college.

 

http://nordkyndesign.com/heavy-weather-dynamics-upwind-sailing-windage-and-resistance/

Really sensible article. His boat is also really interesting and well designed IMHO

I think it is simply a fuckin cruising herd mentality thing going...probably propogated by shit they research on utube generated by those you know shit.

 

For instance I have given up convincing people they are better off tweaking if not changing their battery chemistry, investing a few bucks in a second alternator to take advantage of their efficient diesel energy source, but their probably limited fuel capacity and in conjunction with that maybe a bit of solar or hydro/wind if they can put up with the shortcomings/cost of the latter.

 

But hey they all know better, they then go out and build these fuckin great stainless steel monoliths that not only in a good gale are fucked, but will also go a long way to fucking them too.

 

I can't work out human nature. Maybe I should shut the fuck up and get into the stainless business.

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99% of cruisers I come across should have read this article and others before spending thousands on the junk trunk shit. There are so many alternatives out there to solve power, dingy storage and antenna issues than doing what they do and in many cases they will save money instead of paying for their S/S guy's kids to through college.

 

http://nordkyndesign.com/heavy-weather-dynamics-upwind-sailing-windage-and-resistance/

Really sensible article. His boat is also really interesting and well designed IMHO

I think it is simply a fuckin cruising herd mentality thing going...probably propogated by shit they research on utube generated by those you know shit.

 

For instance I have given up convincing people they are better off tweaking if not changing their battery chemistry, investing a few bucks in a second alternator to take advantage of their efficient diesel energy source, but their probably limited fuel capacity and in conjunction with that maybe a bit of solar or hydro/wind if they can put up with the shortcomings/cost of the latter.

 

But hey they all know better, they then go out and build these fuckin great stainless steel monoliths that not only in a good gale are fucked, but will also go a long way to fucking them too.

 

I can't work out human nature. Maybe I should shut the fuck up and get into the stainless business.

 

 

Can a main engine work as efficiently as a genset providing reliable AC power?

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99% of cruisers I come across should have read this article and others before spending thousands on the junk trunk shit. There are so many alternatives out there to solve power, dingy storage and antenna issues than doing what they do and in many cases they will save money instead of paying for their S/S guy's kids to through college.

 

http://nordkyndesign.com/heavy-weather-dynamics-upwind-sailing-windage-and-resistance/

Really sensible article. His boat is also really interesting and well designed IMHO

I think it is simply a fuckin cruising herd mentality thing going...probably propogated by shit they research on utube generated by those you know shit.

 

For instance I have given up convincing people they are better off tweaking if not changing their battery chemistry, investing a few bucks in a second alternator to take advantage of their efficient diesel energy source, but their probably limited fuel capacity and in conjunction with that maybe a bit of solar or hydro/wind if they can put up with the shortcomings/cost of the latter.

 

But hey they all know better, they then go out and build these fuckin great stainless steel monoliths that not only in a good gale are fucked, but will also go a long way to fucking them too.

 

I can't work out human nature. Maybe I should shut the fuck up and get into the stainless business.

 

 

Can a main engine work as efficiently as a genset providing reliable AC power?

 

 

No it can't. But many times "good enough is perfect". Keep it simple when you can. Every piece of the solution need not be optimum as long as the overall setup does what you need.

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99% of cruisers I come across should have read this article and others before spending thousands on the junk trunk shit. There are so many alternatives out there to solve power, dingy storage and antenna issues than doing what they do and in many cases they will save money instead of paying for their S/S guy's kids to through college.

 

http://nordkyndesign.com/heavy-weather-dynamics-upwind-sailing-windage-and-resistance/

 

Here https://www.amazon.com/Seaworthiness-C-Marchaj/dp/1888671092 and here https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Yacht-Design-Lars-Larsson/dp/0071826408 is many thing omitted in this article.

 

The first book, seems to be about how unsafe IOR boats had become. I think that most cruisers now realise this and less and less people want to cruise diamond shaped boats. The issue is more about people storing heavy crap above deck when it should be as low as possible.

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99% of cruisers I come across should have read this article and others before spending thousands on the junk trunk shit. There are so many alternatives out there to solve power, dingy storage and antenna issues than doing what they do and in many cases they will save money instead of paying for their S/S guy's kids to through college.

 

http://nordkyndesign.com/heavy-weather-dynamics-upwind-sailing-windage-and-resistance/

 

Here https://www.amazon.com/Seaworthiness-C-Marchaj/dp/1888671092 and here https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Yacht-Design-Lars-Larsson/dp/0071826408 is many thing omitted in this article.

 

The first book, seems to be about how unsafe IOR boats had become. I think that most cruisers now realise this and less and less people want to cruise diamond shaped boats. The issue is more about people storing heavy crap above deck when it should be as low as possible.

 

 

Both books are about Yacht design in general and seaworthiness - based on physics, fluid dynamics and theory of sailing. Precisely the same as half of Jack's article - which is on one hand very short and on the other not 100% correct in my opinion.

Especially in part about hull and keel. Author is right about windward beating ability, force and momentum for this. But what he says bout fin keel with bulb and small wetted area is at least very controversial - small wetted area means you need a decent speed to gain any lift from a fin keel. When the speed is low or wave stops your boat you stall your high aspect bulb keel an loose all lift. And very small wetted area means small drag. Also small side drag - just opposite to long or full keel with poor profile and poor lift but big drag, especially sideways. When the speed is very low you've got only drag, no lift. And this is why Colin Archer's rescue boats can gain their ground against almost any weather with good sail balance.

Another important factor is crew "seaworthiness". How long the crew will be able to actively sail heavy, slow, Colin Archer with big wetted area and big drag /but big ability to keep her sail hoisted/ vs. light, fast, small wetted area, low drag, sleek fin keel boat.

 

Both books are worth reading in my humble opinion, some math and vectors to think about.

 

As for stacking piles of heavy, wind catching crap on decks I think its obvious for all of us, especially anyone who ever sail offshore in moderate to heavy conditions.

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I think that it is a bit more complicated than fin keel is bad vs full keel is good.

 

The fin keel style needs to be sailed, Breton and French sailors tend to do this when caught in bad weather, we don't heave to or deploy sea anchors we just take down the main and sail the boat under storm jib even if we can't go toward or final destination. Going upwind slowly is a very safe thing to do, it is also possible to go downwind if you sheet in both sheets, the boat weathercock downwind and sails at a manageable speed. It is a different approach but it works especially if you have a fin keel. French yards have mostly stopped building long keels and double enders in the 60s, and we mostly don't really know how to sail them. Some people carry drogues or sea anchors but that is very often in case they break something vital (rig or rudder) windward of a coast.

 

If you read his bio, you will see that he's been a sailing instructor in south Brittany for many years. QED.

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I think that it is a bit more complicated than fin keel is bad vs full keel is good.

Who says that fin keel is bed and full keel is good? Not me for sure. It is more complicated. Thats why I suggest this two books in addition to this short article.

 

 

 

If you read his bio, you will see that he's been a sailing instructor in south Brittany for many years. QED.

 

If you read these books /and authors bios/ you will see that the are about physics of sailing and yacht designs. One of them is based around hypothetical modern fin keeler, and not about Fastnet disaster as you supposed. You can probably find out that all of major yacht designers including french one /did I mention that i love french design and "style" high latitude expedition boat and their many bare aluminium swing keel derivatives ;) / must read and citated Marchaj's books because he was a pioneer of scientific approach to sailing and brings hydrodynamic and aerodynamic tunnels to testing /just as they did in aviation industry/ to sailing. QED.

 

PS I didn't say a word about author - i only suggested some more readings after his article which is short and presents his opinion /witch no deeper explanation - because... yes this is short article/ which are in small part I had motioned above opposite to common science opinion based on, match, physics, model experiments and computer fluid dynamics modelling. I prefer scientific approach when somebody made such general statements as in said article - not anecdotical or subjective one. Anyone can read more and make his or hers own judgement. Just that.

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I can't work out human nature. Maybe I should shut the fuck up

Quick life tip..Mate don't give up your day job at McDonalds..doing humour..well that just means you and your family will only end up living in that dumpster behind your current place of employ.

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I think that it is a bit more complicated than fin keel is bad vs full keel is good.

Who says that fin keel is bed and full keel is good? Not me for sure. It is more complicated. Thats why I suggest this two books in addition to this short article.

 

 

 

If you read his bio, you will see that he's been a sailing instructor in south Brittany for many years. QED.

 

If you read these books /and authors bios/ you will see that the are about physics of sailing and yacht designs. One of them is based around hypothetical modern fin keeler, and not about Fastnet disaster as you supposed. You can probably find out that all of major yacht designers including french one /did I mention that i love french design and "style" high latitude expedition boat and their many bare aluminium swing keel derivatives ;) / must read and citated Marchaj's books because he was a pioneer of scientific approach to sailing and brings hydrodynamic and aerodynamic tunnels to testing /just as they did in aviation industry/ to sailing. QED.

 

PS I didn't say a word about author - i only suggested some more readings after his article which is short and presents his opinion /witch no deeper explanation - because... yes this is short article/ which are in small part I had motioned above opposite to common science opinion based on, match, physics, model experiments and computer fluid dynamics modelling. I prefer scientific approach when somebody made such general statements as in said article - not anecdotical or subjective one. Anyone can read more and make his or hers own judgement. Just that.

 

 

I have no doubt that the book are interesting to read, I was mainly replying to your comment about fin keel being controversial and having serious drawbacks in heavy weather. I am saying that if you sail them properly in heavy weather (basically don't stop sailing the boat), it is safe. Eric Bretscher article IMHO is a very clear and concise explanation how to do it, it mioght not be relevant to long keel boats but that doesn't make the article unsound. Equally if you sail properly a long keel boat in heavy weather you will be fine. Some people want to sail modern hulls like older designs, that doesn't really work IMHO and then they claim that modern fin keel boats are bad which I disagree with.

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Many would be surprised how even some, but not all modern fin keels can match and better an old long keeled lead mine doing things like heaving-to when things go pear shaped etc. It is not a one size fits all approach IMHO.

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Good collection of books on yacht design on Amazon. I like the way they are rated. My book is the only one that got five out of five stars! Yahooo!

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I was mainly replying to your comment about fin keel being controversial and having serious drawbacks in heavy weather. I am saying that if you sail them properly in heavy weather (basically don't stop sailing the boat), it is safe.

 

I said that authors view of high aspect fin keel with bulb /not fin keels in general!/ was controversial to me. As you said one must sail them, how long the crew, especially small crew can stand active sailing against weather in 50 or 70 knots of wind? I've been on the Drake's Passage on steel, fin keel of moderate aspect, 43 footer /boat survived heavy grounding and brutal beaching on the rocks year before/ with no propeller on the shaft. I wouldn't risk going from Admiralty Bay to Beagle Channel on high aspect bulb keel boat with no engine available.

Many would be surprised how even some, but not all modern fin keels can match and better an old long keeled lead mine doing things like heaving-to when things go pear shaped etc. It is not a one size fits all approach IMHO.

 

+1

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I think it is best not to generalize. Treat each boat individually. You simply can't lump all boats into two categories, i.e. fin keel vs full keel.

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I think it is best not to generalize. Treat each boat individually. You simply can't lump all boats into two categories, i.e. fin keel vs full keel.

 

Exactly.

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I can't work out human nature. Maybe I should shut the fuck up

Quick life tip..Mate don't give up .doing humour...

 

Life Coaching, it's not for everyone.

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I think it is best not to generalize. Treat each boat individually. You simply can't lump all boats into two categories, i.e. fin keel vs full keel.

 

Exactly.

 

 

That was my first point, you just can't discard fin keels with small wetted area like this, the good ones in the right hands are very safe.

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I think it is best not to generalize. Treat each boat individually. You simply can't lump all boats into two categories, i.e. fin keel vs full keel.

 

Exactly.

 

 

That was my first point, you just can't discard fin keels with small wetted area like this, the good ones in the right hands are very safe.

 

 

But I certainly can say that hi aspect bulb keel /as mentioned in the article/ in really heavy seas are less safe than moderate aspect fin - with profile optimal for hull speed, not excessively deep and with decent plane - more demanding and less crew friendly. This is a scientifically proven fact, taken into account in construction of most of purposely build expedition boats TARA, Pelagic Australis etc. You cannot build very fast, comfortable, easy to steer and seaworthy boat - its always a matter of compromise. Read the second book ;) And from my own experience physics don't lie been there, done that.

 

On the photo my boat porn. No hi aspect fins, no long keeled doubleenders - moderate aspect fin and swing heavy keel - in their own ground in Puerto Williams last year. There was also very experienced french couple onboard great build Boreal and Polish Selma Expeditions build by Georg Azueppe-Brenner in the CM Merret shipyard in France. Coincidence? I don't think so ;)

post-123694-0-70807700-1493051253_thumb.jpg

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There you go with generalities again Yiggy. I most certainly do not agree with most of what you said. To each their own.

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There you go with generalities again Yiggy. I most certainly do not agree with most of what you said. To each their own.

 

 

I only say to Panoramix: read first then judge by yourself. Are you seriously disagree that given boat is always some kind of compromise? Or with the fluid dynamics and physics of lift /we both fly small general aviation planes i believe/ - you cannot have wing optimal for low speed lift performance and hi speed low drag. It's always kind of trade-off. F16 and open class glider are both great but for different people and different games. To each their own.

 

Im really interested in your opinion and reason with all your experience it would be great to hear from you, you said you don't agree but why? I'm still looki'n for my dream boat ;)

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Yiggy:

To begin with I try not to use the term "compromise". It sounds like there is some negative aspect to it. "Trade off" works better for me. But I seldom use that word either.

Those terms might work if I saw he boat as a collection of features. But I don't.

 

I see the boat as a whole. When I begin a new design I have a mental image of the finished boat sailing along. Then I begin to dissect that image so I can address each design component in context. Each design component has to work in harmony with the others so that the end result will be what the client wants.

I don't think in terms of compromise. I think in terms of "balance". Design elements must be balanced to achieve the end result required. There are so many elements to a design they can't all be optimized but the total personality of the finished boat can be optimized. If this is done correctly the areas where you might use the word "compromise" will not be noticed.

 

I never want a client of mine to stand on the dock looking at his boat and thinking "Well,,,,it's a compromise."

 

Maybe the Tayana 37 is a good example:

This is not the kind of boat I would want to own. I like more performance. But they built 600 of these and there are more Tayana 37's cruising the world than any other model, so I have been told. Given what you may see as a variety of compromises in this design it appears that the boat as a whole satisfies a lot of people.

TY%2037%20blue%207_zpstp7keezt.jpg

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I think it is best not to generalize. Treat each boat individually. You simply can't lump all boats into two categories, i.e. fin keel vs full keel.

Exactly.

 

That was my first point, you just can't discard fin keels with small wetted area like this, the good ones in the right hands are very safe.

 

But I certainly can say that hi aspect bulb keel /as mentioned in the article/ in really heavy seas are less safe than moderate aspect fin - with profile optimal for hull speed, not excessively deep and with decent plane - more demanding and less crew friendly. This is a scientifically proven fact, taken into account in construction of most of purposely build expedition boats TARA, Pelagic Australis etc. You cannot build very fast, comfortable, easy to steer and seaworthy boat - its always a matter of compromise. Read the second book ;) And from my own experience physics don't lie been there, done that.

 

On the photo my boat porn. No hi aspect fins, no long keeled doubleenders - moderate aspect fin and swing heavy keel - in their own ground in Puerto Williams last year. There was also very experienced french couple onboard great build Boreal and Polish Selma Expeditions build by Georg Azueppe-Brenner in the CM Merret shipyard in France. Coincidence? I don't think so ;)

 

 

Tara is indeed a very good boat that has been designed to pop up if blocked in ice, obviously this has a huge incidence on the hull shape. the Boreal boats are also very safe, in bad weather you lift the centreboard and it is unlikely that you get rolled by a wave. Fin keels are different, need to be sailed differently but can also be safe like the one in the link you provided. I would be confident in bad weather on any of these boats, I would just sail them differently (tbh, I would not be sure what to do on Tara but I am sure that the skipper knows a bloody good way to deal with bad weather).

 

You don't need to go that fast to avoid stalling a narrow fin unless it is an extreme racing design, 3 knots will be plenty enough, if you try to sail the boat at 4 knots, nothing bad will happen. Even if you stall the fin under storm jib alone, the boat bears away may be 20º, accelerates (as long as your storm jib is small enough) and unstalls the fin. This also why you want to take the mainsail down early enough. Obviously if the boat broaches, you end up in irons and then going backward, there is trouble ahead. The storm jib will stop even the most scared and seasick helm doing this mistake.

 

 

There you go with generalities again Yiggy. I most certainly do not agree with most of what you said. To each their own.

 

I only say to Panoramix: read first then judge by yourself. Are you seriously disagree that given boat is always some kind of compromise? Or with the fluid dynamics and physics of lift /we both fly small general aviation planes i believe/ - you cannot have wing optimal for low speed lift performance and hi speed low drag. It's always kind of trade-off. F16 and open class glider are both great but for different people and different games. To each their own.

 

Im really interested in your opinion and reason with all your experience it would be great to hear from you, you said you don't agree but why? I'm still looki'n for my dream boat ;)

 

 

And I am just saying that if you fly a F16 like a F16 and a glider like a glider, you will be fine! You are assuming that the fin keel has to be sailed outside its design envelope but that's not true.

 

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So we do not agree in terminology. From this point of view trade offs to each their own. But i was talking precisely about that article and some oversimplification there, regarding heavy weather and hull appendages shape. I'm not saying that this high aspect bulb keels /not all fin keels or all bulb keels in general!/ are inferior o something, for some use and people they are state of the art /and insanely fast/ they excels in different use simply. For me every purposely build boat is beauty. It's art, science, experience, craftsmanship and spirit combined. But there is no such a thing as "universal boat" in my opinion because of the trade-offs. The art is IMHO to design boat which excels wherever the owner priorities lay and good enough /yes i know don't shoot me ;) / or even better in things he is less than focus - and the boat should be also safe and good looking. That's why we need designer, naval architect, artist - not only engineer.

As you probably suspect this is also not the kind of boat I would want to own /i prefer bare aluminium industrial looking boats ;) / but it's a very fine, nice looking boat boat for me. I would personally for example trade off luxury, aesthetics, low wind speed performance for really high seas seaworthiness, autonomy, robustness and capability to beach and sail in ice. The thing is that when Tony Castro design Pelagic Australis this bare aluminium boat looks good although it was rather low on the list of Skip Novak priorities. That's the good balance you are talking about, something our "crazy welder on the rocks" BS won't understand ever ;) I like your Marlin very much. And her keel ;)

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Yiggles:

I don't think the "universal boat" exists.

I think your taste in boats and mine are quite close together.

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I think it is best not to generalize. Treat each boat individually. You simply can't lump all boats into two categories, i.e. fin keel vs full keel.

Exactly.

 

That was my first point, you just can't discard fin keels with small wetted area like this, the good ones in the right hands are very safe.

 

But I certainly can say that hi aspect bulb keel /as mentioned in the article/ in really heavy seas are less safe than moderate aspect fin - with profile optimal for hull speed, not excessively deep and with decent plane - more demanding and less crew friendly. This is a scientifically proven fact, taken into account in construction of most of purposely build expedition boats TARA, Pelagic Australis etc. You cannot build very fast, comfortable, easy to steer and seaworthy boat - its always a matter of compromise. Read the second book ;) And from my own experience physics don't lie been there, done that.

 

On the photo my boat porn. No hi aspect fins, no long keeled doubleenders - moderate aspect fin and swing heavy keel - in their own ground in Puerto Williams last year. There was also very experienced french couple onboard great build Boreal and Polish Selma Expeditions build by Georg Azueppe-Brenner in the CM Merret shipyard in France. Coincidence? I don't think so ;)

 

 

Tara is indeed a very good boat that has been designed to pop up if blocked in ice, obviously this has a huge incidence on the hull shape. the Boreal boats are also very safe, in bad weather you lift the centreboard and it is unlikely that you get rolled by a wave. Fin keels are different, need to be sailed differently but can also be safe like the one in the link you provided. I would be confident in bad weather on any of these boats, I would just sail them differently (tbh, I would not be sure what to do on Tara but I am sure that the skipper knows a bloody good way to deal with bad weather).

 

You don't need to go that fast to avoid stalling a narrow fin unless it is an extreme racing design, 3 knots will be plenty enough, if you try to sail the boat at 4 knots, nothing bad will happen. Even if you stall the fin under storm jib alone, the boat bears away may be 20º, accelerates (as long as your storm jib is small enough) and unstalls the fin. This also why you want to take the mainsail down early enough. Obviously if the boat broaches, you end up in irons and then going backward, there is trouble ahead. The storm jib will stop even the most scared and seasick helm doing this mistake.

 

 

There you go with generalities again Yiggy. I most certainly do not agree with most of what you said. To each their own.

 

I only say to Panoramix: read first then judge by yourself. Are you seriously disagree that given boat is always some kind of compromise? Or with the fluid dynamics and physics of lift /we both fly small general aviation planes i believe/ - you cannot have wing optimal for low speed lift performance and hi speed low drag. It's always kind of trade-off. F16 and open class glider are both great but for different people and different games. To each their own.

 

Im really interested in your opinion and reason with all your experience it would be great to hear from you, you said you don't agree but why? I'm still looki'n for my dream boat ;)

 

 

And I am just saying that if you fly a F16 like a F16 and a glider like a glider, you will be fine! You are assuming that the fin keel has to be sailed outside its design envelope but that's not true.

 

 

 

I sail both type and for really heavy weather still would prefer bigger plane but low aspect fin over high aspect one. But I mean Southern Ocean heavy weather.

 

I'm assuming that sometimes the fin /high aspect bulbous one!/ keel has to be sailed outside its design envelope e.g. when you stall it ant then you can get in trouble - in that kind condition moderate ore low aspect fin will be more predictable.

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Yiggles:

I don't think the "universal boat" exists.

I think your taste in boats and mine are quite close together.

 

I feel privileged to read this, Bob.

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I sail both type and for really heavy weather still would prefer bigger plane but low aspect fin over high aspect one. But I mean Southern Ocean heavy weather.

 

I'm assuming that sometimes the fin /high aspect bulbous one!/ keel has to be sailed outside its design envelope e.g. when you stall it ant then you can get in trouble - in that kind condition moderate ore low aspect fin will be more predictable.

I've never sailed in the southern ocean, bay of Biscay relatively bad weather was enough for me. If you stall the keel under jib alone, I don't think that anything bad will happen. TBH, the risk is more having too much grip as you can be rolled by a wave, in this sense a Boreal style centreboarder makes sense in heavy weather.

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I can't believe that there aren't any Anarchists in Edmonds, WA on this thread!

What do I win?

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I remember practicing heaving to in a long keel, retired Navy Knockabout which involved sailing past close hauled, into the wind, back winding the jib, sheeting the main in hard and lashing the rudder hard to lee. The purpose as explained to me wasn't necessarily to ride out a blow but to stop the boat while you attended to other things like checking your charts, making coffee, taking a leak, etc. With forward fetch the rudder and main would drive the boat to head to wind until the main would luff and boat would lose weigh, then the jib would push the bow back down on the opposite tack, the boat would slide backwards till the rudder bit and pushed the bow back over to the original tack and the main would drive the boat forward again. Back and forth, side to side, going nowhere.

 

Worked a charm with those old style boats but I could never get this to work on a fin keel, big genoa boat. As I read some of the posts here some of you are saying that's not universal. If that's the case, maybe I should experiment with it more.

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I remember practicing heaving to in a long keel, retired Navy Knockabout which involved sailing past close hauled, into the wind, back winding the jib, sheeting the main in hard and lashing the rudder hard to lee. The purpose as explained to me wasn't necessarily to ride out a blow but to stop the boat while you attended to other things like checking your charts, making coffee, taking a leak, etc. With forward fetch the rudder and main would drive the boat to head to wind until the main would luff and boat would lose weigh, then the jib would push the bow back down on the opposite tack, the boat would slide backwards till the rudder bit and pushed the bow back over to the original tack and the main would drive the boat forward again. Back and forth, side to side, going nowhere.

 

Worked a charm with those old style boats but I could never get this to work on a fin keel, big genoa boat. As I read some of the posts here some of you are saying that's not universal. If that's the case, maybe I should experiment with it more.

 

Huh. Perhaps I have been doing it wrong all these years - but when "I heave to", I start just like you do (tacking through the wind and leaving the jib sheeted in so as to backwind), but then, I let the mainsheet way out so the sail is left in the lee of the jib, and only trim it in to use the back end of the sail to turn the bow up. I never sheet the mainsail in hard when heaving to.

 

gallery_75266_1131_26272.jpg

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I sail both type and for really heavy weather still would prefer bigger plane but low aspect fin over high aspect one. But I mean Southern Ocean heavy weather.

 

I'm assuming that sometimes the fin /high aspect bulbous one!/ keel has to be sailed outside its design envelope e.g. when you stall it ant then you can get in trouble - in that kind condition moderate ore low aspect fin will be more predictable.

I've never sailed in the southern ocean, bay of Biscay relatively bad weather was enough for me. If you stall the keel under jib alone, I don't think that anything bad will happen. TBH, the risk is more having too much grip as you can be rolled by a wave, in this sense a Boreal style centreboarder makes sense in heavy weather.

 

 

If the wave of certain height breaks under your boat any boat will capsize - it's a matter of ratio to hull length. But for sure Boreal approach is far better in real world than one can imagine looking only in AVS and STIX tables.

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I remember practicing heaving to in a long keel, retired Navy Knockabout which involved sailing past close hauled, into the wind, back winding the jib, sheeting the main in hard and lashing the rudder hard to lee. The purpose as explained to me wasn't necessarily to ride out a blow but to stop the boat while you attended to other things like checking your charts, making coffee, taking a leak, etc. With forward fetch the rudder and main would drive the boat to head to wind until the main would luff and boat would lose weigh, then the jib would push the bow back down on the opposite tack, the boat would slide backwards till the rudder bit and pushed the bow back over to the original tack and the main would drive the boat forward again. Back and forth, side to side, going nowhere.

 

Worked a charm with those old style boats but I could never get this to work on a fin keel, big genoa boat. As I read some of the posts here some of you are saying that's not universal. If that's the case, maybe I should experiment with it more.

 

Many fin keel boat heave to with no problem - you should experiment with sailplane IMHO, maybe too much headsail? Maybe staysail on baby/inner stay will do the job better?

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attachicon.gifIMG_2788.jpeg

I can't believe that there aren't any Anarchists in Edmonds, WA on this thread!

What do I win?

 

Poor little SJ 24. :(

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attachicon.gifIMG_2788.jpeg

I can't believe that there aren't any Anarchists in Edmonds, WA on this thread!

What do I win?

 

Poor little SJ 24. :(

 

 

I thought someone had put an outhouse in the cockpit when I first saw it... nope... a full on "pilot house" out of corrugated black plastic. It was definitely an eye catcher when we were passing through in the fall!

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I sail both type and for really heavy weather still would prefer bigger plane but low aspect fin over high aspect one. But I mean Southern Ocean heavy weather.

 

I'm assuming that sometimes the fin /high aspect bulbous one!/ keel has to be sailed outside its design envelope e.g. when you stall it ant then you can get in trouble - in that kind condition moderate ore low aspect fin will be more predictable.

I've never sailed in the southern ocean, bay of Biscay relatively bad weather was enough for me. If you stall the keel under jib alone, I don't think that anything bad will happen. TBH, the risk is more having too much grip as you can be rolled by a wave, in this sense a Boreal style centreboarder makes sense in heavy weather.

If the wave of certain height breaks under your boat any boat will capsize - it's a matter of ratio to hull length. But for sure Boreal approach is far better in real world than one can imagine looking only in AVS and STIX tables.

Some boats are really good at behaving like corks. In a breaking wave, you are doomed if the keel get tripped by the eddies but if moving with the water, not necessarily. Deep Keel can't be parallel to the wave crest though, that's a recipe for disaster.

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attachicon.gifIMG_2788.jpeg

I can't believe that there aren't any Anarchists in Edmonds, WA on this thread!

What do I win?

 

 

It floats. It's miracle...

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So after three pages of trunk junk, any takers for instead posting cunning solutions?

I'm sure some options for concealing or tuck-away davits must be out there. More of the recent +50'ish cruisers are incorporating garages for dinghies and passerelles. Put the radar back on the mast and we just need a better home for solar panels for a nice clean bum.

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Or transom enjoyment? Random google shot, but it looks a rather pleasant spot

IMG_0688.JPG

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Wondering how the hell you get in it?  B)

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Offer her a drink? Oh, you mean the seat. Swing out and lower from the davits?

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Jeez, everyone hated the one that was strung from a bowsprit a few months ago.  IIRC, the Delos bunch hangs theirs from a spinnaker pole, and have a little trolly to supply beers.  I don't remember how they got in.  

I have to admit that I have one of those in the back yard, but have not yet tried rigging it on the boat.  Could be a whole new level of "hiking out."  

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1 hour ago, toddster said:

Jeez, everyone hated the one that was strung from a bowsprit a few months ago.  IIRC, the Delos bunch hangs theirs from a spinnaker pole, and have a little trolly to supply beers.  I don't remember how they got in.  

I have to admit that I have one of those in the back yard, but have not yet tried rigging it on the boat.  Could be a whole new level of "hiking out."  

We have one similar to that which is great at anchor. We either hang it from the jib halyard also attached to the forestay to center it in foretriangle, or hang it off the boom. When in the foretriangle if you get a good set of waves you get to fly over the edges like a pendulum, pretty fun. When out from the boom, you keep it on a clutch and winch and you can just release and dunk someone, then bring them back up. Good times.

45855BE2-CAD8-4715-8293-07FFD0E830DF.jpg

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1 hour ago, DavidBuoy said:

We have one similar to that which is great at anchor. We either hang it from the jib halyard also attached to the forestay to center it in foretriangle, or hang it off the boom. When in the foretriangle if you get a good set of waves you get to fly over the edges like a pendulum, pretty fun. When out from the boom, you keep it on a clutch and winch and you can just release and dunk someone, then bring them back up. Good times.

45855BE2-CAD8-4715-8293-07FFD0E830DF.jpg

With that big of a lever there would be no question of the person getting dunked on my boat.

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We have one of those hammocks as well.  we usually set it up from the staysail halyard with a line around the forestay to keep the occupant form bashing into the mast. It's my daughter's favourite place to curl up with a book.

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1 hour ago, kinardly said:

Not something you can single hand, is it?

Who, her?

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Spin halyard. My Christmas present to her about 20 years ago. We now have a different boat, but the same swing. dQDusKu.jpg

 

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Your pretty lucky Ish....gorgeous scenery, even more gorgeous wife. 

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12 minutes ago, Crash said:

Your pretty lucky Ish....gorgeous scenery, even more gorgeous wife. 

Thanks, Crash. I love them both.

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Spin halyard. My Christmas present to her about 20 years ago. We now have a different boat, but the same swing. dQDusKu.jpg

 

You gave your wife a spinnaker halyard for Christmas?

You incurable romantic.

 

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For an English major, sometimes I have words, sometimes words have me.

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18 hours ago, HFC Hunter said:

So after three pages of trunk junk, any takers for instead posting cunning solutions?

Howsabout just simplify the boat? 

Use a small inflatable instead of a RIB.  Dump the radar and navigate the old-fashioned way.  Stop trying to run a full set of household electrics inside, then dump the perma-mounted solar and wind generators.

Look around harbours in the UK and Ireland.  Hardly any of the boats there have all this crap on the back.

 

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