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Nonsuch 26 What are its good points...what are the bad

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Time to move up to a more sedate (senior citizen friendly) vessel. Use would be primarily day sailing, often without crew and an occasional overnight. The boat would live on a mooring. Is the unstayed mast a bug or a feature. 26' is more than big enough, but the Nonsuch 22's are rare.

 

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One of the guys at my club has a 26. He moved up from a 22. He often sails alone. He has gone for cockpit protection big-time, but that says more about the guy than the boat.

 

The rig is a feature for a solo sailor.

 

In drifting conditions, the 22 is a bit faster. I think the 26 is slower than the the 30 by a bigger margin than would be explained by waterline alone.

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Lived on Lake Ontario and had a Nonsuch 30. iMO the 26 is a better light air boat than the 30, more sail area for the displacement. Rigged the boat for solo sailing and my wife cruised the heck out of it. Everything led to cockpit. Tides track so the sail went up and DOWN easily. Electric halyard winch.

Very comfortable secure cockpit. A joy to sail if you have any Laser or Finn experience. Just don't pinch.

Downside- doesn't power upwind into a big sea. Needs a riding sail if you anchor in tight anchorage. Jibes get can a little hairy in 15 kts.

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^^ this is pretty good commentary. I owned a 30 for about 15 years and have sailed all sizes: 22, 26, 30, 33, 36.

 

All sail very well, the mistake some sloop sailors make is trying to trim the sail like you would trim the main on a sloop. Trim it more like a genoa. The 26 comes in Classic and Ultra versions (interior layout differences), there are a few 260 models around which have a carbon rig and different interior.

 

You can jibe a 26 or 30 in 25 or even 30 knots without drama singlehanded, though it requires a different technique than you might be used to.

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One thing to keep in mind with those boats is that they are big for their size. Each of them is roughly equivalent to the next size up in a more conventional boat - the 22 is like a "normal" 26, the 26 is like a 30 and the 30 is the size of a 35' "normal" boat. With my last boat I was on a dock with 34 to 37 footers and a Nonsuch 30 fit right in with them.

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Lived on Lake Ontario and had a Nonsuch 30. iMO the 26 is a better light air boat than the 30, more sail area for the displacement. Rigged the boat for solo sailing and my wife cruised the heck out of it. Everything led to cockpit. Tides track so the sail went up and DOWN easily. Electric halyard winch.

Very comfortable secure cockpit. A joy to sail if you have any Laser or Finn experience. Just don't pinch.

Downside- doesn't power upwind into a big sea. Needs a riding sail if you anchor in tight anchorage. Jibes get can a little hairy in 15 kts.

 

Out of interest how does the reefing from the cockpit work?

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It is reefed just like a sloop. Slack the halyard, pull in tack and clew lines, re-tension halyard. Some of the last boats had a single line version with shuttle blocks inside the wishbone, but I heard complaints about the friction in the arrangement.

 

One peculiarity is as you reef deeper, the reefed clew is pulled in further up the wishbone, which rises going forward. By the second reef, there is a couple of feet of bunt hanging below into the lazyjacks. By the third reef it is getting to be a bunch of bunt. In heavy seas this can fill with water and blow about and otherwise create problems. A full battened sail with a nearly vertical leech (at least in the lower bits) like Wyliecats have mitigates this a lot.

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You can jibe a 26 or 30 in 25 or even 30 knots without drama singlehanded, though it requires a different technique than you might be used to.

 

Would you kindly explain the technique.

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Not sure what question to answer first. On our boat I rerogged the reef system with multi part Tackett inside the boom-think cascade boom band to reef. Reef lines led out of boom and then down to deck and aft to clutches. Lower halyard, take up tack, take up clew. Only had 2 reefs. Never sailed in more than 35 except for squall with everything down.

As SJB said remember these boats are all waterline. They sure won't surf, but they do go. 30 sailed even with most 34-35s. Great down wind. Really fast on a reach.

Lived across the river from Hinterhoeller. While they were production boats most left the shop with individual details. If George liked a customers modification he would incorporate it in the next boat on the line. Power varied depending on year built. Some had sail drive, some v drive. Plus and minus for each. Decks were balsa cored and can be an issue at this age.

Where is the boat your friend is looking at?

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You can jibe a 26 or 30 in 25 or even 30 knots without drama singlehanded, though it requires a different technique than you might be used to.

 

Would you kindly explain the technique.

 

 

He might be talking about this.

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You can jibe a 26 or 30 in 25 or even 30 knots without drama singlehanded, though it requires a different technique than you might be used to.

 

Would you kindly explain the technique.

 

 

He might be talking about this.

 

 

Yeah. You need to clear the passengers out of the back of the cockpit. Don't have BBQs, antennae, etc on the stern pulpit. Then get the wishbone all the way out and sail by the lee as much as you dare (on a Nonsuch this will be something like 150 - 160 apparent angle on the wrong side). Then set the wheel brake a little, put in a gentle wheel turn towards the jibe, then turn around and grab both parts of the sheet. The boat will turn slowly and then the sail will come across. As it does so, flip both parts of the sheet over the pulpit and anything else you have back there, timing the flip to coincide with the wishbone crossing the stern. You only need to worry about the inner part of the sheet, most of it out toward the wishbone will fly aft of the stern. Don't try to pull the sheet or hold onto it, just flip it over the stern as it comes slack and let go. The wishbone will come quietly to rest on the opposite jibe and be luffing - it will not bang against the sheet or do anything dramatic at all. Immediately get back to the wheel and drive the boat off wind again. If you don't, you will lose steerageway, and you will find a Nonsuch quite stable with the sail out, seas and wind abeam, stalled (it's a good way to reef actually, once in that position you will have to sheet in to get going again). But normally, by-the-lee, start the turn, flip the sheet over, steer back downwind. It is no effort and requires no strength, is not hard on anything. The only thing that can go wrong is if the sheet hangs up on stuff on the pulpit, your neck, a passengers head, etc. which will bring the wishbone to a banging stop before it is luffing. With good timing on your flip and a clean stern, this will not happen. If you have an outboard, a BBQ and davits on the stern don't try it - the sheet will remove them when it tangles. Try it in 10 knots for practice, it happens faster but just the same way in 20 or 30.

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You can jibe a 26 or 30 in 25 or even 30 knots without drama singlehanded, though it requires a different technique than you might be used to.

 

Would you kindly explain the technique.

 

 

He might be talking about this.

 

 

Yeah. You need to clear the passengers out of the back of the cockpit. Don't have BBQs, antennae, etc on the stern pulpit. Then get the wishbone all the way out and sail by the lee as much as you dare (on a Nonsuch this will be something like 150 - 160 apparent angle on the wrong side). Then set the wheel brake a little, put in a gentle wheel turn towards the jibe, then turn around and grab both parts of the sheet. The boat will turn slowly and then the sail will come across. As it does so, flip both parts of the sheet over the pulpit and anything else you have back there, timing the flip to coincide with the wishbone crossing the stern. You only need to worry about the inner part of the sheet, most of it out toward the wishbone will fly aft of the stern. Don't try to pull the sheet or hold onto it, just flip it over the stern as it comes slack and let go. The wishbone will come quietly to rest on the opposite jibe and be luffing - it will not bang against the sheet or do anything dramatic at all. Immediately get back to the wheel and drive the boat off wind again. If you don't, you will lose steerageway, and you will find a Nonsuch quite stable with the sail out, seas and wind abeam, stalled (it's a good way to reef actually, once in that position you will have to sheet in to get going again). But normally, by-the-lee, start the turn, flip the sheet over, steer back downwind. It is no effort and requires no strength, is not hard on anything. The only thing that can go wrong is if the sheet hangs up on stuff on the pulpit, your neck, a passengers head, etc. which will bring the wishbone to a banging stop before it is luffing. With good timing on your flip and a clean stern, this will not happen. If you have an outboard, a BBQ and davits on the stern don't try it - the sheet will remove them when it tangles. Try it in 10 knots for practice, it happens faster but just the same way in 20 or 30.

 

 

 

interesting.

 

I kinda wish that I had that wishbone boom on my old Pearson 23 cat rig. Heavy air gybes were something to avoid. Of course, a simple round up, tack, bear off worked fine.

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You can jibe a 26 or 30 in 25 or even 30 knots without drama singlehanded, though it requires a different technique than you might be used to.

 

Would you kindly explain the technique.

 

 

He might be talking about this.

 

I saw this done on a schooner,(the Stephen Taber) once. It was pretty impressive and easy on the sails and rig. The skipper made very very sure that everyone was out of the way of the boon ans the mainsheet before he started the gybe. Seems to me though, if you screw it up, it will put some serious loads on your rig, especially with a sail as big as it is on a Nonsuch.

 

Here is a pic of the Taber. Picture that boom (a tree) flying across overhead

windjammer%20cruises%2001%20stephen%20ta

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Sloop Jon,

 

Agreed, Nonsuch design offers more space per foot than your average 30 footer.

 

I've always thought the 26 was in the sweet spot as a pocket cruiser (coastal). I never liked the Nonsuch looks growing up but they've grown on me a little bit, especially in terms of 1 sheet/1wheel' daysailing.

 

A 30 was dismasted and abandoned offshore years ago and drifted somewhere down to S/Central America, was claimed as salvage, and the owner I believe attempted to re acquire it...probably a set up meant for coastal/freshwater.

 

DDW,

 

Re your gybing the big cat rig, I'd have to go take a closer look at where the traveller is etc. and have never sailed a Nonsuch, but was just wondering 'why not a controlled gybe'? My thought would be to sheet in, bring the stern across the wind and ease the big main back out.

 

 

Anyway, one final comment. Hinterhoeller has/had a good reputation as a builder. I might be a little biased though as my 1981 build still seems pretty much rock solid.

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Sloop Jon,

 

Agreed, Nonsuch design offers more space per foot than your average 30 footer.

 

I've always thought the 26 was in the sweet spot as a pocket cruiser (coastal). I never liked the Nonsuch looks growing up but they've grown on me a little bit, especially in terms of 1 sheet/1wheel' daysailing.

 

A 30 was dismasted and abandoned offshore years ago and drifted somewhere down to S/Central America, was claimed as salvage, and the owner I believe attempted to re acquire it...probably a set up meant for coastal/freshwater.

 

DDW,

 

Re your gybing the big cat rig, I'd have to go take a closer look at where the traveller is etc. and have never sailed a Nonsuch, but was just wondering 'why not a controlled gybe'? My thought would be to sheet in, bring the stern across the wind and ease the big main back out.

 

 

Anyway, one final comment. Hinterhoeller has/had a good reputation as a builder. I might be a little biased though as my 1981 build still seems pretty much rock solid.

 

 

Not saying that the experience of a Pearson 23 is similar to a nonsuch, as it's likely 1/2 the displacement, but you couldn't do the controlled jibe. If you tried bringing in the main in a big breeze, as the CoE of the sail came behind the keel you'd broach. Not a real big deal, but you'd spill drinks.

 

I decided when it was real windy to just chicken jibe. the laser jibe described above didn't work for a boat with a gooseneck. The wishbone boom of the Nonsuch is a better solution.

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Hinterhoeller built boats at the very top of production quality.

 

Regarding the jibe, a Nonsuch does not have a traveller, it is typically a 2 part tackle with the block centered on the aft cockpit coaming. There is no need for a traveller as the wishbone arrangement provides the leech tension, always, automatically. That helps in the jibe, because there is no boom to rise and leave the leech loose, the cause of many sloop problems, nor is there any backstay to worry about. But the real key to it is the ability to sail so far by the lee before you start. That allows the sail to come to rest luffing on the new jibe, rather than banging into spreaders, shrouds, etc (there are none). I have sailed by-the-lee as much as AWA 120 on the wrong side.

 

A "controlled jibe" on a Nonsuch has much more drama. There is a LOT of sheet to crank in, and then due to the center sheeting point it comes across with a bang. In a lot of wind you will need to be quick on the wheel to avoid the broach. Much harder on everything, including the crew. Better the chicken jibe than that.

 

On my cat yawl (with a mainsail of near 1000 sq ft) I do a controlled jibe as the sheeting point is forward of the cockpit and I have been afraid of what it will tangle when it whips across (otherwise it would work great). Keep in mind that on these unstayed cats, you can let the long boom/wishbone out 90, 120, even 160 degrees. On my boat the main sheet is 280 ft of cordage. But on my boat there is a way to control the boom as it comes across that the Nonsuch does not have.

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As a fan of the boat, I guess I should enumerate what I think are its bad points as well:

 

Will not heave to in any conventional sense.

Sails badly at anchor - this was mentioned above - needs a riding sail.

No redundancy in the rig, perhaps a concern for offshore work.

 

On this last point, there have been 3 Nonsuches abandon in the Atlantic, all contributed to by the single sail and marginally spec'ed sail track. The equipment was specified as appropriate for a 30 or 33 foot boat, without considering that the mainsail on these boats is much larger than typical. In all three cases, the track pulled loose from the mast in rough (but to be expected) weather. Two were 30' and were abandon probably needlessly, as both were recovered still floating months later and both have been restored and are still sailing. These incidents have been described in books about them. There was also a 33 abandon for similar reasons during a Bermuda race, the crew were recovered within hours from a raft through good luck, the boat was never seen again (left with hatches open in heavy weather). I have the books, the 33 information was communicated to me privately from the crew.

 

Mark Ellis never intended these to be ocean crossing blue water boats, however my opinion is they are absolutely capable, but I would upgrade some of the equipment first, and develop a plan around the possibility of the mainsail being disabled. There have been several Atlantic and Pacific crossings in them. My own custom cat yawl grew out of the Nonsuch concept, and has a mizzen partly for these reasons. It will heave to, is rock solid into the wind at anchor with the mizzen flying, and will sail a bit even if the main mast is gone.

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Catboat entertainment from SW Florida:

 

 

At 3 minutes into that video you can see the guy whose post I linked to above snag his outboard with the sheet on a gybe in his Alerion.

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Sails badly at anchor - this was mentioned above - needs a riding sail.

With all that mast windage so near the bow, is it feasible to keep a Nonsuch on a mooring? Will being on board at the mooring in say 20 knots (or more) be uncomfortable?

 

DDW

Thanks for the jibe description.

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Our 30 lived on a mooring, albeit with some current. Generally moorings have lots of weight and short scope so sailing is not a big problem. But when you anchor with lots of scope there's more freedom for boat to sail. Two solutions. Take a second line and pull the anchor lead aft about 10 ft. This cocks the boat on one tack and it generally stays put. Or rig a small riding sail on the end of the wish boom. There is a good Nonsuch website and I think I found the riding sail dimensions there. Also lots of other Nonsuch specific info, parts, forum

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Raz'r and DDW,

 

Thanks for your explanation of why a controlled gybe is not the best option with a cat rig. This makes a lot of sense now that I think of it...I'm used to my sloop w smaller mainsail where c of effort stays reasonably over the keel during a gybe...not as much sail area aft. I also have way less main sheet and a traveller in front of the wheel. If I find myself ever sailing a bigger cat rig for the first time, I'll try DDWs technique in light wind but anything heavy I'll be sure to go for the chicken gybe!!

 

DDW, I have seen your custom cat boat in another thread and it is really cool. I also noticed you developed the custom batt car/headboard solution for hoisting/reefing your mainsail. I can see how sailing by the lee might reduce tension on the headboard track and allow for easier reefing. A couple quick questions??

 

1 are you able to reef on a broad reach or is there too much tension on the tracks/cars?

2 do you use a preventer when sailing be the Lee and reefing(sounds kinda sketchy but also sounds like you know what your doing)?

3 does steerage (w/o rudder input) change in any way, as in bow bearing off, when your wishbone moves so far forward? I'm thinking of how the c of effort changes on a windsurfer when the mast goes forward/back and steers the board.

4 you mentioned you have a method of controlling the boom on your mainsail on a controlled gybe. What would that be?

 

Thanks in advance and answer only if you have the time/inclination as these are really just general interest questions but who knows might be of interest to others.

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Fufkin, I am a known bloviator, so I will attempt to answer.

 

1) The mainmast on my boat rotates, the gooseneck only articulates up and down and so the sailtrack is always in line with the boom and sail. Reefing downwind is a treat: I let the boom out maybe 150 degrees and head up a little till the main is luffing, then reef just as you would upwind, sheet in and away. The mizzen is conventional, and difficult to reef off the wind. But it's small enough you can oversheet it and manhandle it down.

 

2) I do use a preventer in some circumstances. With the mast 4' aft of the stem the rail isn't far enough away to do any good. But I have a carbon sprit pole extended through the anchor bowsprit, you can probably see it in some of the pictures. I have two lines permanently rigged along the boom, fixed to a pad eye aft and and eye splice cleated forward on each side. I uncleat the forward end, snap the asym tack line coming from the sprit pole to it, then tension. The pole is about 14' ahead of the mast, so it has a decent angle on the boom. To jibe, I slacken the tack line and jibe. The line rides up over the lifelines without any issues. Then when settled on the new jibe, go forward and switch the tack line to the other side.

 

I mostly use this in light winds and a sloppy seaway, to keep the boom from drifting back in the slop (the mast has about 1 deg of rake, so gravity tends to swing the boom towards CL with no wind pressure). I have also used it in shifty winds, or at night in nasty weather just for safety. Sailing DDW with this rig you are a long ways from risking a jibe. I have run for days and nights DDW in 25+ knots and a seaway, autopilot steering, without worry. It is easy enough to jibe, that I generally don't run by-the-lee for long periods of time.

 

3) The boat doesn't steer much different than a sloop bearing away. A Nonsuch will get a fair amount of weather helm if overpressed on a broad reach, reefing relieves that. My boat seems to have less of this, not as beamy and the boom is shorter, relatively speaking. A Nonsuch 30 has about a 24 foot wishbone, my 45' has a 24 foot main boom. A Nonsuch will drag the wishbone on a deep roll broad reaching or running (again usually with too much sail). I worried about that with my boat, figuring a really good one would break the sprit pole if used as a preventer. But in the worst conditions we have only just kissed the water with the boom end, and that is very rare.

 

4) My boat has a unique sheeting arrangement. It starts as a 4 part bridle but one of the parts running through the boom has two back-to-back sheet stoppers which freezes it. That turns it into 2 independent 2:1 tackles which terminate on each side of the house on some custom made floppy blocks built into the handrails. Controlling the sheets in this mode gives me some control of the position of the boom when it is over the house. I sheet in both tackles (pushing two buttons for the power winches :)) until the boom is inside the leeward handrail, then jibe and ease it out again. If it is in the 4 part bridle mode, I sheet in until the boom is over the rail, stepping just outside the cockpit I can reach the sheet stoppers on the end of the boom and trigger them putting it in the independent 2:1 sheet mode, then jibe as described. In practice we usually run in the independent mode, it is self tacking either way without attention and tending the extra (lazy) sheet off the wind isn't much trouble. Without pushbutton winches it would be more trouble.

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Mark Ellis never intended these to be ocean crossing blue water boats, however my opinion is they are absolutely capable, but I would upgrade some of the equipment first, and develop a plan around the possibility of the mainsail being disabled. There have been several Atlantic and Pacific crossings in them.

Dangerous Waters by David Philpott is an interesting read. Most of his problems stemmed from having only one sail and having it jam, tearing beyond repair, etc. He thought he was a goner at one point, drifting off to the Southern Ocean to freeze to death. Blue water in a Nonsuch would take some careful planning.

 

On the other hand, I knew a older gentleman who sold his 1/2 tonner when it became too much for him to handle, bought a Nonsuch 30 fitted with a bow thruster (for solo docking) and happily sailed coastal up until the end of his days.

 

I can see doing that. Trawler yacht? Pshaw!

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It is reefed just like a sloop. Slack the halyard, pull in tack and clew lines, re-tension halyard. Some of the last boats had a single line version with shuttle blocks inside the wishbone, but I heard complaints about the friction in the arrangement.

 

One peculiarity is as you reef deeper, the reefed clew is pulled in further up the wishbone, which rises going forward. By the second reef, there is a couple of feet of bunt hanging below into the lazyjacks. By the third reef it is getting to be a bunch of bunt. In heavy seas this can fill with water and blow about and otherwise create problems. A full battened sail with a nearly vertical leech (at least in the lower bits) like Wyliecats have mitigates this a lot.

 

 

Not sure what question to answer first. On our boat I rerogged the reef system with multi part Tackett inside the boom-think cascade boom band to reef. Reef lines led out of boom and then down to deck and aft to clutches. Lower halyard, take up tack, take up clew. Only had 2 reefs. Never sailed in more than 35 except for squall with everything down.

As SJB said remember these boats are all waterline. They sure won't surf, but they do go. 30 sailed even with most 34-35s. Great down wind. Really fast on a reach.

Lived across the river from Hinterhoeller. While they were production boats most left the shop with individual details. If George liked a customers modification he would incorporate it in the next boat on the line. Power varied depending on year built. Some had sail drive, some v drive. Plus and minus for each. Decks were balsa cored and can be an issue at this age.

Where is the boat your friend is looking at?

 

Thanks for the answers. So are the tack lines just going along the wishbones or just going straight from the wishbone end to the mast?

 

I've never sailed anything with a wishbone apart from a windsurf and I am struggling to imagine how you route all these reefing lines.

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I have sailed the Nonsuch 36. I went cruising with Graham Kerr, the TV chef, I pushed the boat hard. a bit harder than Graham was comfortable with but he played along. I enjoyed sailing the boat. It moved well and felt very "normal" to me.

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was talking to a retired sail maker about sailing Nonsuch, he told me a story about racing one that he had just provided a new sail for, the owner and wife had never raced before. First jibe the BBQ went and the next the compass shot down into the cabin.

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Maybe I confused you. Tacks for reef are pretty much per usual. Hooks or tack lines that hold tack down and close to mast. It's the clew lines that are in the wish boom. First thing is make sure topping lift is led forward either internal to one of the wish booms, or external up to a block hanging below wish boom and approximately abeam of mast. Then down to cabin house and aft. Original topping lift cleated at outboard end of boom which was plain unsafe as you need to take up on topping lift before reefing.

Reef line starts as bowline around one wish boom, then thru worked hole in leech (or thru a block attached to worked hole) down to block on other wish boom and then forward to hanging block abeam mast, down to deck and aft to clutch. Same setup for second reef but started on opposite wish boom.

I'm probably showing my age by referring to a worked hole but can't find the right word for the stainless ring pounded into the leech tabling.

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As I've said before....when there's something (usually small in size) that you don't know the name of just call it a "pinche chingdera!".

 

 

 

Not sure what ended up being more valuable to me from my time at Coast Catamaran....boat building or shop Spanish.

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Time to move up to a more sedate (senior citizen friendly) vessel. Use would be primarily day sailing, often without crew and an occasional overnight. The boat would live on a mooring. Is the unstayed mast a bug or a feature. 26' is more than big enough, but the Nonsuch 22's are rare.

 

I know of a Nonsuch 22 for sale in Kincardine, Ontario.....FYI.

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There is a 22 listed on the nonsuch.org site in SF, and another listed in Brockville ON on Kijiji.

 

 

Time to move up to a more sedate (senior citizen friendly) vessel. Use would be primarily day sailing, often without crew and an occasional overnight. The boat would live on a mooring. Is the unstayed mast a bug or a feature. 26' is more than big enough, but the Nonsuch 22's are rare.

 

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They sail quite decently too. They were made with either an inboard or an outboard well. Not really "trailerable" but can be trailered.

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I've owned a Nonsuch 26 for 9 seasons and like it very much. Very comfortable, easy to singlehand and reef, and fast enough, except upwind where racing similarly rated sloops can be demoralizing. Every design has compromises and for the Nonsuch 26, the biggest issue by far is jibing. Jibing in anything more than about 12 knots of wind +/- takes great care, entails drama, and is best avoided. Unless you have special skill or special tackle (DDW's unique sheeting arrangement), the safest practice is the "chicken jibe", a 270 degree turn. It's fun unless you're in a race, and avoids the potential of getting caught in the very long sheet when it violently goes from slack to taught when the  boom swings around.
 

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looking for darwin award candidates, Bull?

Quote

The Hudson River jibe is a very old time way of jibing in the days when boats had unstayed rigs and sailed in the light summer winds of the Hudson Valley. It involves heading up slightly to increase boat speed and then throwing the helm over hard. In small boats it involved holding out the boom on the original tack until the last possible moment. If the boat is swung fast enough the boat is up towards a beam reach before the boom can swing across and fetch up on the sheets.

a 26 does not constitute as small in this regard.

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I must be missing something in this jibe "issue" on cat boats.

Why can't you just sheet all the way in, jibe over and sheet out?

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37 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I must be missing something in this jibe "issue" on cat boats.

Why can't you just sheet all the way in, jibe over and sheet out?

I suspect that if you do this, it will behave like a laser in breezy conditions, ie it either won't gybe or if it does it will round up on the new tack.

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I've never sailed the 26 but I did sail the 36 for a few days. I was quite impressed. Well built boat that sails quite well.

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As explained up thread, there is an awful lot of mainsheet to bring in

 difficult to do when single handed. Much easier to sail well by the lee, put the helm over and flick the whole thing over. By then you are beam reachimg  on the new tack and the main just luffs until you bare away or sheet in. Sounds challenging at first but works quite well.

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10 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I must be missing something in this jibe "issue" on cat boats.

Why can't you just sheet all the way in, jibe over and sheet out?

Nice to see this thread revisited. I asked the same question a while back up thread and DDW and Raz'r schooled. 

I think the 22 and 26 are sweet boats...great pocket coastal cruisers.

No way these unstayed catboats are good for offshore. Remember one abandoned that floated to central America when I was growing up

just realized that hindsight 20/20ers will point to the fact that a solid boat floated to shore. Don't give a shit. Not a good offshore platform. Period. That was the original lesson.

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On 14.9.2016 at 4:52 AM, DDW said:

They sail quite decently too. They were made with either an inboard or an outboard well. Not really "trailerable" but can be trailered.

DDW,

could you direct me to the thread that discussed your cat yawl - I am very interested in this. Is this about Anomaly 43? Thanks.

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Anomaly is 45' on deck. Sadly, many of the threads discussing features of the boat have been spoiled by the greed of Photobucket. If there is anything specific you would like to know, please ask and I will try to answer.

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RE: Nonsuch

I've owned a Nonsuch 36 for over eight years, and cruised the California coast into Mexico.  As noted by others, Hinterhoeller built some great boats.  As with all boats, there are compromises, but for me the most glaring for the 36 is the inability to rig a preventer- there's just no room ahead of the mast.  In light air this isn't a problem, but when running down the coast in 25 knots + and 8' + waves, it becomes an issue when the sail backwinds in the troughs and then slams when the sail fills toward the top of the wave.  Not sailing as deep dips the end of the boom frequently when she rolls with a slightly less shock-load occurring. Either way, the load is worrisome and the noise annoying.

Mark Ellis has drawn a storm trysail rig which wouldn't really help in that the trysail is sheeted to the end of the boom.  I have installed what the factory calls a blooper halyard which I'm considering employing for a small downwind sail.  Maybe something that would look like the old Tallboy we used to set as a spinnaker staysail.  That way downwind in a breeze and waves I could douse the main and fix the boom, sailing only on the headsail.  

Any thoughts on this idea appreciated. 

Thanks!

Kulu tomales small copy.jpg

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These are the problems I tried to solve on Anomaly's rig. The common suggestion for dragging the wishbone on a Nonsuch is a tripping reef, though suggested by people who haven't tried it: doesn't work. I was never able to rig a preventer on my 30. Also spent a number of hours experimenting to heaving to in different configurations. Nothing worked. 

If I was dedicating a Nonsuch to coastal work I would consider a sail with a higher clew. That would solve at least some of the boom dragging problem without giving away any efficiency. It would start getting hard to reach though. A more radical solution on a 36 is to shorten the wishbone and add a mizzen. One was originally built that way. Doing so would solve most of the offshore issues with that rig in my opinion. Before I built Anomaly I considered doing just that. We have the same issues with keeping the boom out, but prevent it to the sprit pole. It very rarely drags and only lightly.

 

Anomaly.jpg

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Thanks DDW for your response.  I agree with the rigs inability to heave-to and figure on running off (possibly using a drogue) if conditions warrant. I see and appreciate the wisdom, thought and design that is incorporated in your rig.  Controlling the wishbone is a problem that you have taken a huge bite out of with your conventional boom, unconventional vang system and sprit.  Well done!  I have a copy of the rig plan for the Nonsuch 36 ketch and it does seem to make more sense for offshore use but not practical for me to convert my boat.  Raising the clew (which is already high) would help, but as you mentioned make it out of reach.  I have an anchor sprit/platform now which may be able to incorporate a prod that would extend another five or six feet to attach a preventer to.  Making it strong enough and allowing the anchoring function to be unaffected may be an issue.  Still, the thought of using a downwind "storm" staysail without incorporating the boom is intriguing. The boat handles so well running in a breeze with the third reef in (with the exception of the wishbone issues) I'm tempted to try the headsail concept with a used staysail and see if it is an acceptable solution to wild wishbones downwind in heavy air and seas.

IMG_5106.JPG

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 I can't add to the Nonsuch discussion, other than to say my buddy likes his 30.  But as the owner of a Niagara, I  will say that Hinterhoeller was a top notch builder.  The more  I poke around ours after 7 years, the more I'm impressed with the quality of construction and attention to detail. I'd buy another, but love ours too much to replace it.  Ellis has been a great designer.  All due respect to Bob, too

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On 2/19/2018 at 8:55 PM, WoobaGooba said:

I'm real curious for a Nonsuch-y upgrade along the lines of this ... https://www.pinguin.it/daycat-32---jolie-rouge.htm

Mast further aft with fathead main, sprit for an asym, etc.

A cat boat with the mast set aft like that needs to be very light in order to have enough sail to drive it. On a sloop you are using most of the triangle formed by the mast tip and boat hull, also on cat with the mast well forward. But if the boat is light enough, then it's all good. 

On an unstayed cat, the main is a very efficient downwind sail compared to a sloop. To make an Asym work, you need a large space between mast and sprit, and even then you will find the range of effective wind angles more limited. Our sprit only gets the asym tack about 14' from the mast, it works but over a comparatively narrow range of wind pressure and angles. We have run wing-and-wing but it is dicey to keep everything full. In more than about 12 knots, I just square off and run DDW. In about 6-7 knots, 150 AWA, the asym works well. We have a mizzen staysail too, good for a laugh but at only 280 sq ft doesn't do all that much.

Anomaly_Small.jpg

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20 hours ago, Palula said:

Still, the thought of using a downwind "storm" staysail without incorporating the boom is intriguing. The boat handles so well running in a breeze with the third reef in (with the exception of the wishbone issues) I'm tempted to try the headsail concept with a used staysail and see if it is an acceptable solution to wild wishbones downwind in heavy air and seas.

 

When you don't need the area, a small flying downwind sail ought to work well. You'd need to furl the main to use it, as the main and its wake blanket anything up forward of it. And that becomes a problem, in lots of wind having to round up to take the main down is a pain. Our asym is strictly a light air sail, up to about 12 knots. A heavy spinnaker would be worth a try for heavy running conditions. 

On the radical 36 mod: the ketch has much closer to equal sail areas, and I don't think that is necessary or even desirable. That would be a major mod to the boat. On Anomaly, we have a 960 sq ft main and a 230 sq ft mizzen and it works well - its a yawl really. I don't think the modification is that massive on a N36. The way I'd to it is shorten the existing wishbone by maybe 6-8 feet, enough to sheet it to the cabin top. That would help a great deal with the dragging. Recut the existing sail. Then step an unstayed carbon stick through the cockpit coaming. That is some relatively minor and non-invasive fiberglass work, 6" hole in the deck with a collar and a cup at the heel. 200 sq ft would be plenty. 150 is probably enough. Before I cut the mizzen boom off, Anomaly's mizzen had 280 sq ft, the mizzen mast weighs only about 100 lbs. and now could have been lighter. What you need on an N36 will weigh maybe 70-80 lbs., two men could step it by hand. Make it a wishbone as well, with two sheets so you can lock it amidships for anchoring. Have the sail made as flat as they can do it, fully battened. We set the mizzen first when we leave the dock, and don't take it down again until we are back in harbor. It flies all day and night at anchor. It heaves to nicely, can be controlled under all conditions under sail - reefing, anchoring, even backing down out of an anchorage by backing the mizzen. 

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2 hours ago, DDW said:
On 2/19/2018 at 11:55 PM, WoobaGooba said:

I'm real curious for a Nonsuch-y upgrade along the lines of this ... https://www.pinguin.it/daycat-32---jolie-rouge.htm

Mast further aft with fathead main, sprit for an asym, etc.

A cat boat with the mast set aft like that needs to be very light in order to have enough sail to drive it. On a sloop you are using most of the triangle formed by the mast tip and boat hull, also on cat with the mast well forward. But if the boat is light enough, then it's all good. 

On an unstayed cat, the main is a very efficient downwind sail compared to a sloop. To make an Asym work, you need a large space between mast and sprit, and even then you will find the range of effective wind angles more limited. Our sprit only gets the asym tack about 14' from the mast, it works but over a comparatively narrow range of wind pressure and angles. We have run wing-and-wing but it is dicey to keep everything full. In more than about 12 knots, I just square off and run DDW. In about 6-7 knots, 150 AWA, the asym works well. We have a mizzen staysail too, good for a laugh but at only 280 sq ft doesn't do all that much.

That Daycat seems to tick off all your concerns.  Same sail area (fat head) as a Nonsuch 30 + appears to have better fore/aft weight distribution of the rig + sprit with the mast aft enables the asym.

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It does, but of course it is an entirely different boat than a Nonsuch. The Daycat is an an open daysailer, with no accommodation at all. As such it can be really light, and needs little area to drive it. Add a cabin and accommodation, especially of Nonsuch type quality, and that sail area will be inadequate. It could still be done, with an exotic build and spartan interior. 

A NS30 has over 600 sq ft of sail if the roach is included (as I am certain it is on the Daycat), displaces 11,500 lbs on the brochure and probably at least 2000 lbs more in reality. A Wyliecat 30 displaces 5500 on the brochure and probably somewhat more in reality, and has very minimum accommodation - far less than a NS30. And it has the mast stepped forward to get sail area. 

Since on a cat the main is all you have, you really want the SA/D up around 22 or preferably higher. 

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5 hours ago, DDW said:

It does, but of course it is an entirely different boat than a Nonsuch. The Daycat is an an open daysailer, with no accommodation at all. As such it can be really light, and needs little area to drive it. Add a cabin and accommodation, especially of Nonsuch type quality, and that sail area will be inadequate. It could still be done, with an exotic build and spartan interior. 

A NS30 has over 600 sq ft of sail if the roach is included (as I am certain it is on the Daycat), displaces 11,500 lbs on the brochure and probably at least 2000 lbs more in reality. A Wyliecat 30 displaces 5500 on the brochure and probably somewhat more in reality, and has very minimum accommodation - far less than a NS30. And it has the mast stepped forward to get sail area. 

Since on a cat the main is all you have, you really want the SA/D up around 22 or preferably higher. 

Alrighty.  I'll take a mashup of the Daycat and a Pogo 30.

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