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plenamar

Brian: your post should be corrected

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Sorry to be grumbling...

 

In his August 30 post Brian Hancock writes about Chichester´s circumnavigation. He writes:

 

"It’s worth noting that prior to Chichester there had already been some extraordinary circumnavigations including the very first solo circumnavigation by Joshua Slocum in 1895, but Chichester was the first to round Cape Horn. Slocum sailed through the Strait of Magellan. In 1932 the American sailor Harry Pidgeon circumnavigated twice single-handed but he went through the Panama Canal. In 1962 the New Zealand sailor Adrian Hayter became the first person to sail around the world in both directions but he too went through the Panama Canal. Indeed almost 20 people had sailed around the world single-handed before Chichester, but his voyage aboard Gypsy Moth was the one that changed things and there was a number of reasons for this."

 

 

I mailed Brian a correction: Vito Dumas rounding of Cape Horn preceded Chichester by more than two decades. Brian probably did not receive my email -- the post has not been corrected.

 

Dumas´s circumnavigation was done with extremely basic equipment.

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Marcel Bardiaux in Les 4 Vents sailed westbound around Cape Horn in the early 50s.

Bill Nance sailed westbound around Cape Horn in Cardinal Vertue about 1960, on his way to Australia from England.

Both boats 25'ish...

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Maybe the definition of 'circumnavigation' needs to be considered before pointing fingers.

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Vito's voyage was and indeed still is little known in the anglosphere was that his book wasn't published in English until the mid/late 50's , long after the event. He was probably far better known on the other side of the Atlantic..... and he made his trip in the middle of WW2 with a minimum of fuss.

 

The reason Chichester became so well known was the mass of publicity in the popular British papers.

 

 

And also.... some will say 'but, but... Dumas did his circumnav completely in the southern hemisphere!!'

 

He had pre WW2 singlehanded from France to Argentina and post war had single handed from Argentina to the US and back a few times.

 

Even so, he was not the first single hander around the Horn..... before him the Norwegian Larsen(?) had singlehanded east to west ... but he didn't live to tell the tale... having sailed from Argentina wreckage of his yacht was found on the coast of Isla Chiloe.

 

Quick edit, the only reference I have ever found to Larsen is in Vito's book.

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duty_calls.png

 

Ok, a cavalier attitude to Brian' s Cape Horn error would be equivalent to ignoring Hillary as the first man on Everest.

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duty_calls.png

 

Ok, a cavalier attitude to Brian' s Cape Horn error would be equivalent to ignoring Hillary as the first man on Everest.

 

 

Tenzing Norgay excluded?

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Very pointed comment Ish - in both cases the Englishman got the credit - the Wogs simply didn't count, any more than the equipment did as far as being given credit.

 

Hillary and Norgay had agreed that they would not say who was first but still the world (British) press credited Hillary for many decades.

 

FWIW I understood that Chichester was the first to round the 5 capes alone but apparently even that was not the case.

 

How can you sail RTW without crossing the equator? Circumnavigating Antarctica would be a monstrous bitch of an accomplishment but it ain't a circumnavigation.

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Crossing the Equator would have put Dumas smack in the middle of a war zone. I don't think his accomplishment is any lessened.

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According to Wikipedia about Chichester:

"By doing so, he became the first person to achieve a true circumnavigation of the world solo from West to East via the great Capes."

 

His circumnavigation only stopped once at Sydney. Vito Dumas stopped three times: Cape Town, Wellington, Valpariso. Chichester also set a record for the fastest solo circumnavigation. His mission was to sail the clipper route at a time equal or better than the clippers.

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Kiwi. Hillary was a New Zealander. (But the point is taken.)

 

Yeah but the Brits and the British press would always "reclaim" a colonial when they accomplished something big. :D

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Kiwi. Hillary was a New Zealander. (But the point is taken.)

 

Yeah but the Brits and the British press would always "reclaim" a colonial when they accomplished something big. :D

 

 

the expedition was paid for by the Brits (Alpine Club + Royal Geographic Society), largely staffed by them, and the news reached London on coronation morning. As a stark contrast to the solo trips in this thread, the early expeditions were very large affairs with hundreds of porters and staff. Because Nepal had nothing then - how cars got to Kathmandu in 1950

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Vito's voyage was and indeed still is little known in the anglosphere was that his book wasn't published in English until the mid/late 50's , long after the event. He was probably far better known on the other side of the Atlantic..... and he made his trip in the middle of WW2 with a minimum of fuss.

 

The reason Chichester became so well known was the mass of publicity in the popular British papers.

 

 

And also.... some will say 'but, but... Dumas did his circumnav completely in the southern hemisphere!!'

 

He had pre WW2 singlehanded from France to Argentina and post war had single handed from Argentina to the US and back a few times.

 

Even so, he was not the first single hander around the Horn..... before him the Norwegian Larsen(?) had singlehanded east to west ... but he didn't live to tell the tale... having sailed from Argentina wreckage of his yacht was found on the coast of Isla Chiloe.

 

Quick edit, the only reference I have ever found to Larsen is in Vito's book.

 

 

 

Where is Dumas' boat exhibited?

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Where is Dumas' boat exhibited?

 

 

It's at a very nice little maritime museum at Tigre, a suburb to the west of central BA. Take the train to Tigre, cross the Rio Tigre, turn right, turn left when you hit the big bit of water, about a 5 minute walk. Tigre is quite a pleasant spot.

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Very pointed comment Ish - in both cases the Englishman got the credit - the Wogs simply didn't count, any more than the equipment did as far as being given credit.

 

Hillary and Norgay had agreed that they would not say who was first but still the world (British) press credited Hillary for many decades.

 

FWIW I understood that Chichester was the first to round the 5 capes alone but apparently even that was not the case.

 

How can you sail RTW without crossing the equator? Circumnavigating Antarctica would be a monstrous bitch of an accomplishment but it ain't a circumnavigation.

Chichester went through Bass Strait and north of New Zealand so only two of the four, Vito went south of Tasmania and through Cook Strait so had three of the four.

Dunno what the 5th one is....

 

And also... as stated above Vito did S/H trips from France to Argentina and Arg to NY and back pre and post war.

http://www.windlasscreative.com/shshof_web/vito_dumas.html

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Cape leeuwin, western Australia?

 

I guess, but if you don't go south of it then you have to go through Torres Strait. I suppose it means getting a minimum of three which sounds better than two . Why not chuck in Aghulas as well as Good Hope and go for six? All a bit 'look at me..look at me' I reckon.

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Where is Dumas' boat exhibited?

 

It's at a very nice little maritime museum at Tigre, a suburb to the west of central BA. Take the train to Tigre, cross the Rio Tigre, turn right, turn left when you hit the big bit of water, about a 5 minute walk. Tigre is quite a pleasant spot.

 

Thanks a stack. BA is a great city to visit. Next time!

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Sorry to be grumbling...

 

In his August 30 post Brian Hancock writes about Chichester´s circumnavigation. He writes:

 

"It’s worth noting that prior to Chichester there had already been some extraordinary circumnavigations including the very first solo circumnavigation by Joshua Slocum in 1895, but Chichester was the first to round Cape Horn. Slocum sailed through the Strait of Magellan. In 1932 the American sailor Harry Pidgeon circumnavigated twice single-handed but he went through the Panama Canal. In 1962 the New Zealand sailor Adrian Hayter became the first person to sail around the world in both directions but he too went through the Panama Canal. Indeed almost 20 people had sailed around the world single-handed before Chichester, but his voyage aboard Gypsy Moth was the one that changed things and there was a number of reasons for this."

 

 

I mailed Brian a correction: Vito Dumas rounding of Cape Horn preceded Chichester by more than two decades. Brian probably did not receive my email -- the post has not been corrected.

 

Dumas´s circumnavigation was done with extremely basic equipment.

 

Chichester is the first person to complete a solo circumnavigation via the great capes (defined as the Cape of Good Hope, Cape Leeuwin, and Cape Horn).

 

Dumas didn't sail a circumnavigation, so it doesn't count!

 

Brian is correct.

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Crossing the Equator would have put Dumas smack in the middle of a war zone. I don't think his accomplishment is any lessened.

 

His accomplishment is impressive, but it wasn't a circumnavigation.

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Sorry to be grumbling...

 

In his August 30 post Brian Hancock writes about Chichester´s circumnavigation. He writes:

 

"Its worth noting that prior to Chichester there had already been some extraordinary circumnavigations including the very first solo circumnavigation by Joshua Slocum in 1895, but Chichester was the first to round Cape Horn. Slocum sailed through the Strait of Magellan. In 1932 the American sailor Harry Pidgeon circumnavigated twice single-handed but he went through the Panama Canal. In 1962 the New Zealand sailor Adrian Hayter became the first person to sail around the world in both directions but he too went through the Panama Canal. Indeed almost 20 people had sailed around the world single-handed before Chichester, but his voyage aboard Gypsy Moth was the one that changed things and there was a number of reasons for this."

 

 

I mailed Brian a correction: Vito Dumas rounding of Cape Horn preceded Chichester by more than two decades. Brian probably did not receive my email -- the post has not been corrected.

 

Dumas´s circumnavigation was done with extremely basic equipment.

Chichester is the first person to complete a solo circumnavigation via the great capes (defined as the Cape of Good Hope, Cape Leeuwin, and Cape Horn).

 

Dumas didn't sail a circumnavigation, so it doesn't count!

 

Brian is correct.

a couple years after Dumas sailed around the world he sailed the same boat to NY and back. I think that would count as a circumnavigation with stops. And since it was done in a reasonable time frame (<5 years), I don't see why it wouldn't count. I don't think there were 'rules committees' then, but Slocum Society and CCA Bluewater Award both recognized and rewarded his achievement. That was the standard of the era.

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No matter how you cut it, they were a couple of hard asses who did remarkable things.

 

How many people nowadays do it with sextants, compasses and paper charts? (maybe even a lead line)

 

How many would do it?

 

Even with all mod cons it's a hell of an undertaking that few are capable of and even fewer accomplish. Personally, I don't know why anyone wants to do it - just reading Bob's posts about the guy in the Baba scared the shit out of me a few times. There's no denying though that it is an extremely difficult and noteworthy accomplishment, even today when it has almost become something approaching commonplace.

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SJB...man, I got a lot of respect for those pioneers. Some amazing sailors. Even the ones inexperienced when starting out figured things out pretty quickly....there was no magic button to push when things went tits up.

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Sorry to be grumbling...

 

In his August 30 post Brian Hancock writes about Chichester´s circumnavigation. He writes:

 

"It’s worth noting that prior to Chichester there had already been some extraordinary circumnavigations including the very first solo circumnavigation by Joshua Slocum in 1895, but Chichester was the first to round Cape Horn. Slocum sailed through the Strait of Magellan. In 1932 the American sailor Harry Pidgeon circumnavigated twice single-handed but he went through the Panama Canal. In 1962 the New Zealand sailor Adrian Hayter became the first person to sail around the world in both directions but he too went through the Panama Canal. Indeed almost 20 people had sailed around the world single-handed before Chichester, but his voyage aboard Gypsy Moth was the one that changed things and there was a number of reasons for this."

 

 

I mailed Brian a correction: Vito Dumas rounding of Cape Horn preceded Chichester by more than two decades. Brian probably did not receive my email -- the post has not been corrected.

 

Dumas´s circumnavigation was done with extremely basic equipment.

 

Chichester is the first person to complete a solo circumnavigation via the great capes (defined as the Cape of Good Hope, Cape Leeuwin, and Cape Horn).

 

Dumas didn't sail a circumnavigation, so it doesn't count!

 

Brian is correct.

 

 

 

Brian is "correct"? A technicality. The important fact is that Dumas rounded Cape Horn decades before Chichester. Brian ignores this crucial fact.

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I don't understand how someone going around the world isn't a circumnavigation?

If you were to walk around the block, you don't do it 35m in the air, you go around the block?

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World speed sailing record council definition of circumnavigation:

 

To sail around the World, a vessel must start from and return to the same point, must cross all meridians of longitude and must cross the Equator. It may cross some but not all meridians more than once (i.e. two roundings of Antarctica do not count). The shortest orthodromic track of the vessel must be at least 21,600 nautical miles in length calculated based on a 'perfect sphere'. In calculating this distance, it is to be assumed that the vessel will sail around Antarctica in latitude 63 degrees south.

A vessel starting from any point where the direct orthodromic distance is too short shall pass one single island or other fixed point on a required side so as to lengthen his orthodromic track to the minimum distance.

No starting point will be permitted more south than 45 ° south.

1 degree of longitude at 63 degrees south will be taken as 27.24NM

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World speed sailing record council definition of circumnavigation:

 

 

To sail around the World, a vessel must start from and return to the same point, must cross all meridians of longitude and must cross the Equator. It may cross some but not all meridians more than once (i.e. two roundings of Antarctica do not count). The shortest orthodromic track of the vessel must be at least 21,600 nautical miles in length calculated based on a 'perfect sphere'. In calculating this distance, it is to be assumed that the vessel will sail around Antarctica in latitude 63 degrees south.

A vessel starting from any point where the direct orthodromic distance is too short shall pass one single island or other fixed point on a required side so as to lengthen his orthodromic track to the minimum distance.

No starting point will be permitted more south than 45 ° south.

1 degree of longitude at 63 degrees south will be taken as 27.24NM

World Speed Sailing Record Council didn't exist in the 40s. The Slocum Society did, and gave Dumas an award. The CCA did, and awarded him a Bluewater Medal. Nearly every book written about circumnavigators since then lists him. If the authority bodies from his era recognized him, that should be enough.

 

http://www.joshuaslocumsocietyintl.org/solo/solotable.htm

 

https://www.cruisingclub.org/pdfs/awards_bluewater.pdf

 

http://www.stexboat.com/books/circumnav/ci_15.htm

 

And then there was still Marcel Bardiaux and Bill Nance, who solo circumnavigated via Cape Horn in the 50s and 60s, before Chichester. Moitessier went around Cspe Horn, but I think his wife was crewing.

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I don't understand how someone going around the world isn't a circumnavigation?

If you were to walk around the block, you don't do it 35m in the air, you go around the block?

As I understand it the argument is that you could cross all the meridians covering an arbitrarily small distance by getting close to a pole. I suppose a rubber ducky in a kiddy pool on the South pole (with a lot of anti-freeze) might cross all the meridians just bobbing about. There's something not right with just crossing all the meridians as a definition of circumnavigation. It doesn't require traveling around the circumference of the Earth. Thus, it seems reasonable to require that a proper circumnavigation navigate over a great circle (a circumference) on the Earth. And, indeed, that defines a circumnavigation of a sphere. Sadly, you can't sail a great circle around the Earth because there isn't a passage clear of land on any great circle on the Earth. It just can't be done. However, that's not an amusing answer. So, folks have come up with more attainable definitions for sailing circumnavigations. IIRC, typically they require that the route cross all the meridians and minimum distance of about an equatorial circumference as well as two equator crossings plus rules to make make "proper" circumnavigations equivalent to circumnavigations starting and ending in Europe.

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The 'great capes' thing seems a bit flexible - KJ went through Bass Strait frinstance - depending on what suits people on the day.

 

Vito started in BA and finished in BA... via New York.

 

He had to take a break until WW2 finished before he could go to NY and back is all......

 

Oh and he did it without fuss.... unlike Chichester the Showman.

 

How many here have read his book? If you haven't then you should.

 

It's a treasured possesion of mine.

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Very pointed comment Ish - in both cases the Englishman got the credit - the Wogs simply didn't count, any more than the equipment did as far as being given credit.

 

Hillary and Norgay had agreed that they would not say who was first but still the world (British) press credited Hillary for many decades.

 

FWIW I understood that Chichester was the first to round the 5 capes alone but apparently even that was not the case.

 

How can you sail RTW without crossing the equator? Circumnavigating Antarctica would be a monstrous bitch of an accomplishment but it ain't a circumnavigation.

 

Not so. Hillary was a kiwi and answered (truthfully) that he summited first, to a press conference in Kathmandu

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I repeat: most of the above are technicalities that distract from my main point.

 

This is that Brian's post ignores Dumas's rounding of Cape Horn decades before Chichester.

 

In my opinion, a serious discussion of Chichester's achievement has to take this into account.

 

In my opinion, an important factor in gauging Chichester's achievement was his age (65). He was obviously a great sailor.

 

In the case of Dumas, his lack of resources and the courage to pioneer single handedcsailing in high latitudes.

 

Whether Dumas "circumnavigated" by crossing or not crossing the Equator does not in any way lessen his achievement as compar d to Chichester's.

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I think the first was Al Hansen. Not on my boat just now so no access to my book but I think Vito talks of Al Hansen.

 

Plenomar.... what is this post on the 30th by some Brian bloke that you talk about? I can't find it.

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Lets not forget Josh Slocum aboard Spray !

Slocum didn't sail around the Horn on Spray.

 

Yes, Al Hansen apparently rounded the Horn solo, but was lost shortly after. He would be the first to do so solo, had he survived to have his log verified. Dumas is the first to round the Horn solo and have his account verified. He was the pioneer for the high latitude solo sailors...Moitessier, Chichester, David Lewis, etc.

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I think the first was Al Hansen. Not on my boat just now so no access to my book but I think Vito talks of Al Hansen.

 

Plenomar.... what is this post on the 30th by some Brian bloke that you talk about? I can't find it.

His post in in the main SA page, August 30 I think.

 

You have to scroll back quite a bit.

 

The post is quite detailed

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Thanks for that....

 

This......' His was the first solo circumnavigation that took in the five great capes and his accomplishment inspired a new generation of offshore sailors.'.... is typical anglo-pommie jingoism and just plain wrong.

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anglo-pommie

 

Is that not a redundancy?

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anglo-pommie

 

Is that not a redundancy?

 

No... redundancy is 'whinging pommie' or maybe even 'whinging pommie bastard'.

 

An Anglo-pommie still believes in the Empire and that Brexit will bring back good Queen Vic, also thinks that 'wogs begin at Calais'..... hence the belief that only a pom could do what Chichester did

 

Maybe you are right... it is a redundancy......

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duty_calls.png

 

Ok, a cavalier attitude to Brian' s Cape Horn error would be equivalent to ignoring Hillary as the first man on Everest.

 

HILLARY CLINTON WAS THE FIRST MAN ON EVEREST??!!!!!!!

SHE'S OLDER THAN SHE LOOKS...

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duty_calls.png

 

Ok, a cavalier attitude to Brian' s Cape Horn error would be equivalent to ignoring Hillary as the first man on Everest.

HILLARY CLINTON WAS THE FIRST MAN ON EVEREST??!!!!!!!

SHE'S OLDER THAN SHE LOOKS...

 

 

Yep! And John Wayne won World War 2 all by himself for America. Why do I say that? Because I saw it in a number of movies!

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Over? Did you say over? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! And it ain't over now!

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Yup, it's sort of a case of what the "dominant" culture/media "knows". Few in the Anglosphere have heard of Dumas because he came from what was a relatively obscure country.

 

What Anglo folk have ever heard of the Brazilian Amyr Klink? Or the Argentinian Jose Torroba?

 

With no fanfare or publicity, Torroba made a hand hewn dugout hull sailboat in the jungles of SE Asia and crossed the Pacific without a compass, using birds and waves as nav aids. James Baldwin's article about Torroba: http://atomvoyages.com/articles/sailor-interviews/97-albertotorroba-1.html

 

Old Cruising World magazine article by Torroba: https://books.google.ca/books?id=WfCYwie6UWQC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=jose+torroba+sailor&source=bl&ots=SKbvypI-q0&sig=fcP-YX28fUwSFdZyRdm9Y42q2Zs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwip3eeDpIXPAhUI6WMKHfGlCw0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=jose%20torroba%20sailor&f=false

 

Article about Torroba in Argentinian newspaper (Google translate sort of works): http://pfdb2.com.ar/formacion/90-navegacion/220-alberto-torroba-un-aventurero-del-mar.html

 

Vito's voyage was and indeed still is little known in the anglosphere was that his book wasn't published in English until the mid/late 50's , long after the event. He was probably far better known on the other side of the Atlantic..... and he made his trip in the middle of WW2 with a minimum of fuss.

 

The reason Chichester became so well known was the mass of publicity in the popular British papers.

 

 

And also.... some will say 'but, but... Dumas did his circumnav completely in the southern hemisphere!!'

 

He had pre WW2 singlehanded from France to Argentina and post war had single handed from Argentina to the US and back a few times.

 

Even so, he was not the first single hander around the Horn..... before him the Norwegian Larsen(?) had singlehanded east to west ... but he didn't live to tell the tale... having sailed from Argentina wreckage of his yacht was found on the coast of Isla Chiloe.

 

Quick edit, the only reference I have ever found to Larsen is in Vito's book.

post-31704-0-74963900-1473526756_thumb.jpeg

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Is Rimas working on a circumnavigation, despite a belief that the world is flat?

 

(Note: My first post with a reference to the Mariner.)

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Tell the lie often enough and it becomes the truth....

 

Which is rather sad as chichester's record needs no embellishment. A factual account of his achievemnts is here... also a map showing quite clearly that he did not pass south of either Tasmania or New Zealand.

http://www.solarnavigator.net/sir_francis_chichester.htm

 

 

Unfortunately the lie gets bandied about hither and yon and the first time it was uttered may have been by no less than Knox-Johnston

 

'Sir Robin Knox-Johnston, who capped Chichester's feat in 1969 by becoming the first to sail solo non-stop around the world, by winning The Sunday Times Golden Globe Race in 1969, emphasised the magnitude of Chichester’s feat, saying: 'While others including the American Joshua Slocum and Vito Dumas from Argentina had completed solo circumnavigations before, none had gone via the five Great Capes, (Good Hope, Leeuwin, Australia’s South East Cape, New Zealand’s South West Cape, and most infamous of all, Cape Horn).'

 

That was published just the other week.. here... http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Francis-Chichester-50th-anniversary-of-solo-circumnavigation/147768?source=google.au

 

Have a look at the map at the bottom of the first link....

 

 

Knox-Johnston only went south of four..... he went through Bass Strait and even stopped to have a parley with the crew of the Port Phillip pilot boat , 'Wyuna'.

 

'

He sails the classic route down south, around the Cape of Good Hope and down in the Roaring Forties on to Cape Leeuwin of Australia, chooses to go through the notorious Bass Strait and round the Southern tip of New Zealand and Cape Hoorn of course until he sets course due North again to reach Falmouth on 22nd of April in 1969 after having circumnavigated the globe in 312 days.'

 

http://no-frills-sailing.com/reading-robin-knox-johnstons-a-world-of-my-own/

 

If you look at the wikipedia page for him the map quite clearly suggests shows his route to be south of Tasmania which is clearly wrong.... I doubt he ever claimed the five.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Knox-Johnston

 

I have no idea who truly was the first person to have circumnavigated south of the 'five great capes'...

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Good afternoon,

The voyages of both Dumas and Chichister are epic indeed. But there was another one which is often forgotten about, namely that of Alec Rose with Lively Lady. He sailed with limited means on a very ordinary boat and was often refered to as the greengrocer from Southsea. He circumnavigated 1967/ 1968 and made two stops. A planned one in Melbourne and an unplanned stop in Bluff, NZ. He sailed South of Taz, then through the Foveaux Straight to Buff for some rigging repairs before setting off for Cape Horn.

 

Years later he was given the honour to fire the start gun for the first Whitbread RoundThe Worls Race.

 

Regards,

Multisail.

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There are other circumnavigations. The first arctic circumnavigation (http://sail.corsairmarine.com/circumnavigating-the-earth-on-the-arctic-ocean) in a season and the first circumnavigation of the Americas (www.washingtonpost.com/sports/othersports/sailor-matt-rutherford-welcomed-home-in-annapolis-after-sailing-solo-around-the-americas/2012/04/21/gIQAVacZYT_story.html). If the definition is going around an axis on the earth, it doesn't have to be the North pole to South pole axis.

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