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3-D printing discontinued parts

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This discontinued HA jib track is OEM on my 1976 Bucc 18. It appears Holt Allen is now two separate companies, neither of which currently uses this design. It has two nylon or plastic bushings that the car slides on, with a small tab that fits into a notch on the car. In other words, I need a simple plastic U channel with a tab sticking out of the back, made of a now brittle plastic. One is MIA (lost in refit or disintegrated). Another has a small crack. The best advice from the Bucc guys was "I used the plastic slide on strip thing from a 6th grade book report binding to make a bushing. Ninety-eight cents. Didn't lock into the car and was fiddly to slide but it worked for a long time"

 

I haven't played with a 3-D printer yet, but it would seem simple to measure one of the surviving bushings, have somebody make a CAD file, and print a couple plastic replacements. They may wear differently but will fit perfectly. Who offers services like this? It appears select UPS stores may offer printing. If anybody have a printer and is interested in a side project, contact me by PM.

 

I can imagine 100 applications on old boats (and cars) where the original part has failed and no replacement is available. Out of idle curiosity, what would the legal implications be if somebody decided to offer this as a business service?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If the parts are no longer commercially available, vanishingly small.

 

In most cases, it's not hard to get a letter from a manufacturer that gives permission. Certainly, if there are no active patents, and if your reverse engineering is clean, then you've perilously little to worry about other than basic liability, which is always a consideration.

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If you are fabricating a copy for your own use you have essentially no liability, as nobody knows or cares if you go and make a part you can't buy.

 

Marketing someone else's designs to the public, you get into patent infringement and copywrite infringement possibilities,

though making a replacement for the function without retaining the distinctive look & branding is a good work around there.

 

If your bushing is functionally similar and yet decoratively different that would suffice.

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There are numerous service bureaus, large and small, that do 3D printing. Just Google it and add your area to get local. Stratasys is a large national company that makes printers and has service bureaus. Upload a cad file and you will get a quote within seconds.

 

One problem will be selecting a material that can be FMD printed and be slippery, UV resistant, and strong enough. Nylon and ABS are printable, as far as I know Delrin is typically not. The cheap printers tend to use PLA which would be unsuitable for this. Once the CAD file is done, the actual cost of printing a small part like this is maybe $1. What someone charges for it is a separate issue.

 

Another possibility is to CNC machine parts. If it is a simple enough shape, it might not be too costly. Then you can use a suitable material like Delrin or Nylatron.

 

I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep over the legal ramifications. If it is covered by a valid and current patent you are technically in violation even making one for your own use, but the chances of prosecution are nearly nonexistent.

 

Post a picture of the part, it might be pretty easy to make.

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There are numerous service bureaus, large and small, that do 3D printing. Just Google it and add your area to get local. Stratasys is a large national company that makes printers and has service bureaus. Upload a cad file and you will get a quote within seconds.

 

One problem will be selecting a material that can be FMD printed and be slippery, UV resistant, and strong enough. Nylon and ABS are printable, as far as I know Delrin is typically not. The cheap printers tend to use PLA which would be unsuitable for this. Once the CAD file is done, the actual cost of printing a small part like this is maybe $1. What someone charges for it is a separate issue.

 

Another possibility is to CNC machine parts. If it is a simple enough shape, it might not be too costly. Then you can use a suitable material like Delrin or Nylatron.

 

I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep over the legal ramifications. If it is covered by a valid and current patent you are technically in violation even making one for your own use, but the chances of prosecution are nearly nonexistent.

 

Post a picture of the part, it might be pretty easy to make.

The legal tangent was just curiosity, I figured I guy could do the auto swap meet circuit with one of these in a van, bandit printing logos for AMX and such.

For my application: The part does not have UV exposure, since it is protected by stainless steel. Slipperiness would be an issue, though OEM seems dry and brittle anyway. The part will see compression force with some sheer. Could you expand on the materials you mentioned? Why is PLA unsuitable? Thanks.

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There are numerous service bureaus, large and small, that do 3D printing. Just Google it and add your area to get local. Stratasys is a large national company that makes printers and has service bureaus. Upload a cad file and you will get a quote within seconds.

 

One problem will be selecting a material that can be FMD printed and be slippery, UV resistant, and strong enough. Nylon and ABS are printable, as far as I know Delrin is typically not. The cheap printers tend to use PLA which would be unsuitable for this. Once the CAD file is done, the actual cost of printing a small part like this is maybe $1. What someone charges for it is a separate issue.

 

Another possibility is to CNC machine parts. If it is a simple enough shape, it might not be too costly. Then you can use a suitable material like Delrin or Nylatron.

 

I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep over the legal ramifications. If it is covered by a valid and current patent you are technically in violation even making one for your own use, but the chances of prosecution are nearly nonexistent.

 

Post a picture of the part, it might be pretty easy to make.

The legal tangent was just curiosity, I figured I guy could do the auto swap meet circuit with one of these in a van, bandit printing logos for AMX and such.

For my application: The part does not have UV exposure, since it is protected by stainless steel. Slipperiness would be an issue, though OEM seems dry and brittle anyway. The part will see compression force with some sheer. Could you expand on the materials you mentioned? Why is PLA unsuitable? Thanks.

 

 

 

PLA has a low melt temp. hot sun, a little fraction and bye bye

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PLA is based on corn starch, is somewhat water soluble, and melts at a low temperature (can't leave black parts in the sun).

 

The "prosumer" type printers in the $2K range can do ABS, HIPS, PC, Nylon and many other materials. The FDM process weakness is interlayer bonding, which is the reason they are not as strong as injection molded versions. If some attention is paid as to which way the part is built, this can often be overcome by orienting the Z direction along the least stress line.

 

For a slide, something like Delrin AF or Nylatron are best: slippery, UV resistant enough, and strong enough. But I have not seen either as FDM filaments. Nylon is fairly common and might be good enough. ABS, HIPS, PC are not considered slippery plastics, though they might be good enough for this application.

 

It would take far less time to CNC machine them, the gotcha being the time required to fixture the parts. Once the fixtures are done, the CNC time is probably a minute or so for simple shapes, compared with hours of print time. The beauty of 3D printing is there is no tooling and no fixturing, and complexity is a non-issue. You push the 'print' button and go to bed. Next morning your parts are done :).

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Thanks for the education

post-120910-0-60059900-1474499809_thumb.jpeg

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Most printers above absolute bottom level can do abs. I think most can also do nylon, but may need custom settings beyond just changing materials in the software.

The printer I just ordered for school can do plan, abs, nylon and a few other materials such as conductive copper impregnated plastic.

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OK the problem with machining something that thin and light in plastic is that the piece itself is not rigid enough to withstand the machining process. It will flop all over or break unless fixtured on all sides. 3D printing has essentially no machining force at all. That's about 10 or 15 minutes CAD time and an hour print time. Maybe you should just print it in a few materials and see what holds up.

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OK the problem with machining something that thin and light in plastic is that the piece itself is not rigid enough to withstand the machining process. It will flop all over or break unless fixtured on all sides. 3D printing has essentially no machining force at all. That's about 10 or 15 minutes CAD time and an hour print time. Maybe you should just print it in a few materials and see what holds up.

 

I have an employee that does CAD with her mom on the side, and have a micrometer. I'll have to do another search for 3D print companies. Thanks again,

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3d printing uses stl files, which can be exported out of nearly any cad program. Solid works or inventor are one style, autocad another. Auto desk products are easiest to get cracks for

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Google up "Maker Lab" and you may find a place to do the job. Around here there's one by the local alt high school that's got the equipment to make up that piece. Seems a popular thing lately, even the public library now has a 3d printer.

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We do a lot of prototyping of functional parts, both machined and 3D printed through various processes. The advice you have gotten here is good. It’s somewhat difficult to get high levels of durability with lower end FDM (fused deposition modeling) printers. They rely on melting the plastic at relatively low temperatures, and extruding it to make a shape. The results are less solid than parts formed under pressure. Companies like QuickParts can provide services for higher durability materials, but at a cost.

If I understand your photo, however, the part you need is the simple white U-channel, correct? My immediate reaction would be to get a sheet of Delrin the appropriate thickness from McMaster Carr, Tap Plastics, Online Metals, or a similar suppler, and find a reasonably skilled woodworker to use a table saw or router table to cut the center groove and slice the edges on a table saw. Carve or file a tab on the end if it needs it. Cut it slightly oversized and use a cabinet scraper to adjust the fit- or a small chisel to scrape the center groove if necessary. It shouldn’t be too hard to hold the necessary tolerances with normal shop tools. Delrin- in addition to being durable and slippery- is extremely easy to cut and trim and a part like this should take just a few minutes to make. We commonly make small plastic parts like this using woodworking tools. 3D printing shines at making complex shapes, straight cuts like this will probably turn out better starting from a solid piece. And you can have some Delrin left over for other things- it’s handy stuff. Unlike many plastics, it won’t melt when you cut it with normal tools.

One way to quickly “fixture” thin parts is to stick them to a larger board with double stick carpet tape. But I would just cut the groove in the larger sheet, then slice off the piece as the last cut.

For CAD tools, Autodesk Fusion 360 is a very accessible full featured CAD tool, cross platform, and free to non-commercial or small scale users.

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never messed with a 3d printer

 

but have seen lost wax parts made

 

do any of the 3d printers have the ability to do wax

or an other substance that is eazy to melt ?

 

if so print the part in wax

cover it with plaster

heat to lose the wax

now you have a cheap one time mold

pore in alloy or bronze or SS or your pick of metal or FRP or ?

break the plaster and you have the part with minor clean up

 

complex parts may need risers allow air out to get a complete part

but small simple shapes do not

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^^ Yes this can be done and is being done. There are printers that print wax specifically for this purpose, we used one to make the custom rail chocks for my boat, investment cast from 316 SS. The result was a much higher quality part than sand casting. There are many hobbyists printing PLA to do this, which has a low melting temp and also burns out of an investment mold cleanly. ABS has a higher melting point, more noxious fumes when you burn it out, and leaves some ash but can still be used. Some are melting the ABS out of the mold with acetone. The sprues and vents for the mold can be printed as part of the model. You do not need to melt the metal yourself, small foundries will take on this work. Investment casting is a way to make complex and difficult to machine parts - in the past you had to machine or mold the form, but now you can 3D print it. The only limitation is getting the metal to flow to the various corners and the air to come out.

 

Of course, a 3D metal printer is the way forward, right now between 1/4 and 1/2 million dollars but it will come down over time. An example today is a part I machine from 316 SS will take 1/2 hour to machine and cost about $130 including machining time, same part was quoted by a 3D printer service bureau at $3000 and takes many hours to print. And would still have to be finish machined to tolerance.

 

To the OP, what Oceanconcepts says above is a good approach for those simple parts.

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Send me the part and I'll draw it up in SolidWorks and make them on a Stratasys machine. PM me for contact info

 

Obtaining "cracked" commercial software is a good way to introduce malware or spyware on your machine at best, or get a demand letter from a law firm at worst.

 

There are any number of CAD products that are free or low cost.

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That sure looks like the insert Forespar uses for their T-125 mast car. Try giving them a call.

Similar but the Forespar part appears to lack the retaining tab on the back?

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Just to add: I bought a $200 printer from monoprice that does a pretty darn good job keeping up with my $40,000 printer at work, and can print ABS just fine. Yeah, it may be +/- 0.001" compared to the stratasys but for $200 I can't complain. That and $16 for a spool of filament is the cost of entry.

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Just to add: I bought a $200 printer from monoprice that does a pretty darn good job keeping up with my $40,000 printer at work, and can print ABS just fine. Yeah, it may be +/- 0.001" compared to the stratasys but for $200 I can't complain. That and $16 for a spool of filament is the cost of entry.

 

 

There ain't nothin' printed in plastic FDM that is +/- 0.001. Metal neither, at this stage.

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Just to add: I bought a $200 printer from monoprice that does a pretty darn good job keeping up with my $40,000 printer at work, and can print ABS just fine. Yeah, it may be +/- 0.001" compared to the stratasys but for $200 I can't complain. That and $16 for a spool of filament is the cost of entry.

 

 

There ain't nothin' printed in plastic FDM that is +/- 0.001. Metal neither, at this stage.

 

 

This would be comparing similar prints that were printed to some dimension that is a factor of nozzle width and distance per step of the axis. Actual variation from your drawings can be a lot more. For example on the y-axis my $200 printer can increment somewhere around 0.004 inches at a time (as advertised 100 microns), and the nozzle itself is near 0.002 inches. Those are conversions; the machine is native to metric. It takes some care to make sure if you need precision that you work within the limits of the machine, meaning the resolution of the axis and width of the nozzle. With some trial and error however I find the $200 machine easy to work with and quite capable of producing consistent parts that are very comparable to those made on the high end machine.

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There's a 3d printing company out there that I have used for a bunch of items - www.shapeways.com. They do a really nice job leading you through the whole process.

 

We used to machine, on both a CNC Mill and CNC Lathe, a replacement stripper ring for a mid 80' vintage Lewmar 40st winch

 

post-205-0-83063700-1475512309_thumb.jpg

 

It was very labor intensive to make, and when we ran out of the last 50 pieces we made, we decided to not produce more. A close friend called me and asked if we could make 1 more, but the setup time and related was WAY too expensive to make just one.

 

Long and short - we uploaded our design to www.shapeways.com, they gave me approval use fine polyamide PA2200, and the parts look great! They got installed into the winch, and so far, no problems.

 

We use Fusion 360 - there are some great youtube channels for learning how to use the software - it handles the CAD and CAM for our CNC machines, and will also output the STL files for shapeways.

 

Bam Miller

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There's a 3d printing company out there that I have used for a bunch of items - www.shapeways.com. They do a really nice job leading you through the whole process.

 

We used to machine, on both a CNC Mill and CNC Lathe, a replacement stripper ring for a mid 80' vintage Lewmar 40st winch

 

attachicon.gif15000137.JPG

 

It was very labor intensive to make, and when we ran out of the last 50 pieces we made, we decided to not produce more. A close friend called me and asked if we could make 1 more, but the setup time and related was WAY too expensive to make just one.

 

Long and short - we uploaded our design to www.shapeways.com, they gave me approval use fine polyamide PA2200, and the parts look great! They got installed into the winch, and so far, no problems.

 

We use Fusion 360 - there are some great youtube channels for learning how to use the software - it handles the CAD and CAM for our CNC machines, and will also output the STL files for shapeways.

 

Bam Miller

Are you using Fusion 360 for all your CAM? How's it working out?

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You can do better than that. Find a service bureau that does 3D scan and 3F print ... It's like a 3D Xerox machine.

 

No. That's wrong. It is a 3D Xerox machine without the Xerox.

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For anybody else in this predicament, west marine item 545020 and my friend the grinding wheel may have solved the problem for $1.95. No hammer required! If this fails I'll hire it out, but my lady couldn't save her work as a STL file she said. Thanks again.

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There's a 3d printing company out there that I have used for a bunch of items - www.shapeways.com. They do a really nice job leading you through the whole process.

 

We used to machine, on both a CNC Mill and CNC Lathe, a replacement stripper ring for a mid 80' vintage Lewmar 40st winch

 

attachicon.gif15000137.JPG

 

It was very labor intensive to make, and when we ran out of the last 50 pieces we made, we decided to not produce more. A close friend called me and asked if we could make 1 more, but the setup time and related was WAY too expensive to make just one.

 

Long and short - we uploaded our design to www.shapeways.com, they gave me approval use fine polyamide PA2200, and the parts look great! They got installed into the winch, and so far, no problems.

 

We use Fusion 360 - there are some great youtube channels for learning how to use the software - it handles the CAD and CAM for our CNC machines, and will also output the STL files for shapeways.

 

Bam Miller

Are you using Fusion 360 for all your CAM? How's it working out?

 

It was a little touch and go in the beginning as the tool library features were pretty limited, but now they have really worked it out, Im VERY happy with it. The simulation feature works great especially when you turn the model on and off - lets you see where you something wasn't working out. Also allows you to model the vice and jaws for custom soft jaws for weird work holding - something really nice if complicated parts are hard to hold.

 

We don't do 5 axis machining - not enough demand and really expensive machines, vices, etc. Couldn't tell you if Fusion is the solution for that or not. We use it on our CNC mill, router and lathes - actually had a custom post written to streamline the "Design to Gcode to chips" process.

 

Bam Miller

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There's a 3d printing company out there that I have used for a bunch of items - www.shapeways.com. They do a really nice job leading you through the whole process.

 

We used to machine, on both a CNC Mill and CNC Lathe, a replacement stripper ring for a mid 80' vintage Lewmar 40st winch

 

attachicon.gif15000137.JPG

 

It was very labor intensive to make, and when we ran out of the last 50 pieces we made, we decided to not produce more. A close friend called me and asked if we could make 1 more, but the setup time and related was WAY too expensive to make just one.

 

Long and short - we uploaded our design to www.shapeways.com, they gave me approval use fine polyamide PA2200, and the parts look great! They got installed into the winch, and so far, no problems.

 

We use Fusion 360 - there are some great youtube channels for learning how to use the software - it handles the CAD and CAM for our CNC machines, and will also output the STL files for shapeways.

 

Bam Miller

Are you using Fusion 360 for all your CAM? How's it working out?

 

It was a little touch and go in the beginning as the tool library features were pretty limited, but now they have really worked it out, Im VERY happy with it. The simulation feature works great especially when you turn the model on and off - lets you see where you something wasn't working out. Also allows you to model the vice and jaws for custom soft jaws for weird work holding - something really nice if complicated parts are hard to hold.

 

We don't do 5 axis machining - not enough demand and really expensive machines, vices, etc. Couldn't tell you if Fusion is the solution for that or not. We use it on our CNC mill, router and lathes - actually had a custom post written to streamline the "Design to Gcode to chips" process.

 

Bam Miller

 

Also of note, Fusion generally has a "Black Friday" special that gives you a year of subscription (license) for under $50.

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Actually, they have a student, enthusiast, hobbyist, and starups offer but you have to register it after a 30 day trial. I know a couple of people who have been playing with it for free for over a year now!

 

Just google "fusion 360 for free"

 

Bam Miller

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I just used Fusion 360, Slic3r, and a Prusa 3d Mk3 printer kit to print some new instrument covers. They came out great - and I embossed the boat name on them, which is kinda cool and kinda nerdy at the same time. I used white PETG, which is supposed to be UV resistant. 

Next job is a new outside ring for the Whale hand bilge pump which has been there for 20 years and has cracked and degraded. I'm now wandering around my boat looking for broken/weathered non-load-bearing plastic to replace. Very cool technology and came online from a box of bits from Prague in under a week.

I'm pretty sure that it will be the bomb for custom plumbing connectors - size changes, corners and weird combinations - and perhaps plastic washers, stoppers, caps for exposed threads. Maybe also for junction boxes. Nothing load-bearing for now - I want to see how it holds up first before I trust the material with anything that might lose me a race. 

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On 9/21/2016 at 12:16 PM, DDW said:

The "prosumer" type printers in the $2K range can do ABS, HIPS, PC, Nylon and many other materials.

I print nylon on my $200 printer.  You don't need anything too fancy, just a heated bed, a nozzle that gets hot enough, and an enclosure to keep the overall temp warmer than average room temperature. I have some nylon parts on our boat (cam cleat mounts) that are about 6 months old now. 

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For nylon, you do need to keep it dry, otherwise the moisture inside pops during extrusion and makes the surface look bad (and maybe the part bad too). There are machines sold to dry it, and people are using vegetable dehumidifiers as well. 

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There are YOUTUBE videos with some strength tests for PLA, PETG, Nylon and Nylon with carbon in it. I don't recall the precise results, but I remember being unimpressed by the delta between PETG and Nylon and quite underwhelmed with the performance of the carbon-loaded material. I'm using PETG because I'm not planning on making anything that is loaded with less than a 10x safety margin anyway, and the inconvenience of printing and storing nylon is not compensated for by the small increase in strength. I have not tried ABS, but as far as I can tell, that's a waste of time because the material properties are not vastly different than either PETG or nylon and it off-gasses when you print with it. 

Overall, I'm pretty impressed by PETG so far and I'll be using that for most of what I make unless I have a specific reason to change.

One question - I'm trying to design a replacement bezel for my bilgepump (rotted in the sun) and it needs a countersink. The screws are #10 flat head slotted stainless countersink type from W.M. - what is the likely countersink angle? 82 degrees or 100 degrees? Also - point of frustration - Fusion360 specifies a Taper Angle, not a countersink, and so you have to put in a negative taper and halve the angle to get it right. Took me about 10 tries of all of the alternatives before I got it right. Grrrr.... I guessed 82 for the countersink - hopefully I don't need to re-do it.

 

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17 hours ago, DDW said:

For nylon, you do need to keep it dry, otherwise the moisture inside pops during extrusion and makes the surface look bad (and maybe the part bad too). There are machines sold to dry it, and people are using vegetable dehumidifiers as well. 

Yes.  I did get my filament wet once and it was a huge mess.  I dried it out in my oven, and keep it dry in a weather sealed box with a lot of desicant.  It's obvious when it is wet and you won't get good prints.

I've had better luck with Nylon than PETG, but also didn't spend a lot of time trying to get my PETG dialed in.  The flexibility of nylon and ability to handle UV made it seem like a better choice to me.

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19 hours ago, Wet Spreaders said:

There are YOUTUBE videos with some strength tests for PLA, PETG, Nylon and Nylon with carbon in it. I don't recall the precise results, but I remember being unimpressed by the delta between PETG and Nylon and quite underwhelmed with the performance of the carbon-loaded material. I'm using PETG because I'm not planning on making anything that is loaded with less than a 10x safety margin anyway, and the inconvenience of printing and storing nylon is not compensated for by the small increase in strength. I have not tried ABS, but as far as I can tell, that's a waste of time because the material properties are not vastly different than either PETG or nylon and it off-gasses when you print with it. 

Overall, I'm pretty impressed by PETG so far and I'll be using that for most of what I make unless I have a specific reason to change.

One question - I'm trying to design a replacement bezel for my bilgepump (rotted in the sun) and it needs a countersink. The screws are #10 flat head slotted stainless countersink type from W.M. - what is the likely countersink angle? 82 degrees or 100 degrees? Also - point of frustration - Fusion360 specifies a Taper Angle, not a countersink, and so you have to put in a negative taper and halve the angle to get it right. Took me about 10 tries of all of the alternatives before I got it right. Grrrr.... I guessed 82 for the countersink - hopefully I don't need to re-do it.

 

Use the Hole command under Create. You can get the specs from McMaster.com for whatever size screw you want; they tell you the angle, and head diameter. Plug those numbers in to the hole specs, including diameter and depth and it makes it a perfect fit!. I prefer to oversize the head diameter so the screw head is just below the surface; gives me room for sealant or tefgel and never have to worry about the head of the screw sticking up. Actually more for when Im countersinking holes in a mill or drill press.

Autodesk has really created an awesome product, and Lars Christensen has a YouTube channel and does a daily lesson; he has covered EVERYTHING you can do with the program, from a CAD and CAM side. I have yet to figure out the FEA part of it. Would be nice to play around with weight reduction and stress analysis.

 

Bam Miller    

 

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I used SimScale for a stress analysis of a glass tabletop I had made for our kitchen. It was pretty easy to import the mesh from Fusion 360, then set up a bunch of FEA tests with the table weighted in various locations. The base I built means the glass is supported in only 4 points with significant overhangs and I wanted to make sure that it would not sag visibly under it's own weight or break when a 200lb person stood on it. With the glass stress/strain figures I was able to convince myself that I had a 5x margin and I don't know any 1000lb people, so that worked out. Table looks great.

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The free availability of these CAD tools makes it really easy for hobbyists and hackers to do some pretty nice stuff in a professional way. I really enjoy it.

 

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