cfarrah

GB 60 v 66

Recommended Posts

All,

 

Is there any data on GB 60 v GB 66 that shows a well sailed 60 winning? I'm expecting to be in the market shortly, and while I think the HH is a good looking boat, the 5' draft kills it for me... so, looking at GB, the 60 v 62 v 66 race record is unclear to me. Centerboard v Daggerboard, and now lifting foils making their entry in the 62/66 class. This seems a real challenge for the 60, although they have appear to have the best use of space.

 

I'm not interested in a 55 or the new stretch, as I need 3 cabins and a lockable main cabin, plus I'm going to be cruising more than racing.

 

So... thoughts on the competitiveness of the boats v. ratings?

 

Thanks,

 

C.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All,

 

Is there any data on GB 60 v GB 66 that shows a well sailed 60 winning? I'm expecting to be in the market shortly, and while I think the HH is a good looking boat, the 5' draft kills it for me... so, looking at GB, the 60 v 62 v 66 race record is unclear to me. Centerboard v Daggerboard, and now lifting foils making their entry in the 62/66 class. This seems a real challenge for the 60, although they have appear to have the best use of space.

 

I'm not interested in a 55 or the new stretch, as I need 3 cabins and a lockable main cabin, plus I'm going to be cruising more than racing.

 

So... thoughts on the competitiveness of the boats v. ratings?

 

Thanks,

 

C.

Feel free to PM me for details.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you believe the specs on the gunboat site: http://www.gunboat.com/series/previous-models/gunboat-60/ Then they are effectively the same lightship weight and presumably you are going to load either with the same amount of people, baggage and consumables regardless.

 

Sail areas are not given, but even assuming the same sail area (unlikely) then the 66 has to be faster and more comfortable due to more waterline length and a lower Displ/L ratio, in anything other than a drifter, in which you would be motoring anyhow. Unless there are some weird (unlikely) design issues???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

60 might be cheaper to park in mariners

Most folks shopping for $3m yachts aren't troubled by an extra $20/night for dockage, but yeah, it's cheaper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All,

 

Is there any data on GB 60 v GB 66 that shows a well sailed 60 winning? I'm expecting to be in the market shortly, and while I think the HH is a good looking boat, the 5' draft kills it for me... so, looking at GB, the 60 v 62 v 66 race record is unclear to me. Centerboard v Daggerboard, and now lifting foils making their entry in the 62/66 class. This seems a real challenge for the 60, although they have appear to have the best use of space.

 

I'm not interested in a 55 or the new stretch, as I need 3 cabins and a lockable main cabin, plus I'm going to be cruising more than racing.

 

So... thoughts on the competitiveness of the boats v. ratings?

 

Thanks,

 

C.

LOL, bet you a handle that you end up looking for a GB48. Curious what you eventually end up with because we are kinda in your shoes (if you end up looking for something like the 48). Nothing out there really has what we are looking for and now that GB is family w Outremer I can't see them ever doing something like the 48 again. And at least for us, Outremer just missed with their 45.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

All,

 

Is there any data on GB 60 v GB 66 that shows a well sailed 60 winning? I'm expecting to be in the market shortly, and while I think the HH is a good looking boat, the 5' draft kills it for me... so, looking at GB, the 60 v 62 v 66 race record is unclear to me. Centerboard v Daggerboard, and now lifting foils making their entry in the 62/66 class. This seems a real challenge for the 60, although they have appear to have the best use of space.

 

I'm not interested in a 55 or the new stretch, as I need 3 cabins and a lockable main cabin, plus I'm going to be cruising more than racing.

 

So... thoughts on the competitiveness of the boats v. ratings?

 

Thanks,

 

C.

LOL, bet you a handle that you end up looking for a GB48. Curious what you eventually end up with because we are kinda in your shoes (if you end up looking for something like the 48). Nothing out there really has what we are looking for and now that GB is family w Outremer I can't see them ever doing something like the 48 again. And at least for us, Outremer just missed with their 45.

 

Don't count us out so soon...everyone loved the 48. They're collectors items. Once we wrap up the design on the new 68 (less than two weeks til it's public!!!) we will be looking at an all new Gunboat 48 MkII. Whether it's 48 or 51 or 47 we haven't decided but a real global capable, owner operator Gunboat is what the market wants. We'd be fools to not give them what they want. No promises on when the 48 will be debuted, but it's coming. Certainly not before 2017 though.

 

For the record, we aren't changing our business approach based on Outremer and their product line. The brands will be independent and will compete (insomuch as they ever did).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wess,

II think it fair to say that we know a fair a amount about these boats. Would be happy to chat with you as to our take on the subject.

I can be reached at mark.womble@morrellimelvin.com.

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you both and thank you for the correction re GB future plans re ~48. But please, I did not mean to hijack Cliff's thread. Perhaps we will see some of you at the Annapolis show and can chat then. We are still 3-6 years away depending, so in an exploring stage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All,

 

Is there any data on GB 60 v GB 66 that shows a well sailed 60 winning? I'm expecting to be in the market shortly, and while I think the HH is a good looking boat, the 5' draft kills it for me... so, looking at GB, the 60 v 62 v 66 race record is unclear to me. Centerboard v Daggerboard, and now lifting foils making their entry in the 62/66 class. This seems a real challenge for the 60, although they have appear to have the best use of space.

 

I'm not interested in a 55 or the new stretch, as I need 3 cabins and a lockable main cabin, plus I'm going to be cruising more than racing.

 

So... thoughts on the competitiveness of the boats v. ratings?

 

Thanks,

 

C.

 

 

Interesting comment... 5' draft? Must mean fixed rudders, rather than the GB retractable ones, yes? (I've 'heard' they were problematic on the GB, any details?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

All,

 

Is there any data on GB 60 v GB 66 that shows a well sailed 60 winning? I'm expecting to be in the market shortly, and while I think the HH is a good looking boat, the 5' draft kills it for me... so, looking at GB, the 60 v 62 v 66 race record is unclear to me. Centerboard v Daggerboard, and now lifting foils making their entry in the 62/66 class. This seems a real challenge for the 60, although they have appear to have the best use of space.

 

I'm not interested in a 55 or the new stretch, as I need 3 cabins and a lockable main cabin, plus I'm going to be cruising more than racing.

 

So... thoughts on the competitiveness of the boats v. ratings?

 

Thanks,

 

C.

 

 

Interesting comment... 5' draft? Must mean fixed rudders, rather than the GB retractable ones, yes? (I've 'heard' they were problematic on the GB, any details?)

 

There were definitely early issues with the Gunboat retractable rudders. After 15 years of development it is a very robust solution. None of the Gunboat skippers I know would trade their retractable rudders. I was very surprised HH abandoned the solution. The Gunboat 66 steering is literally THE reference for good steering on performance cats.

 

As for the relative merits of the 60 vs 62/66, it's all publicly available. The regatta results spell it out. Basically, the 62's are the fastest, the 66's next fastest, the 60 behind them, and then the 55's.

 

A true summary of the boats is not quite that easy, though.

 

Extreme H2O (66) is likely similar to Elvis (62) for performance (I look forward to that matchup). Zenyatta is the last "stock" 62 so there are a couple of turbo'd 66's that are faster. Flow (60) is undergoing a turbo mod now and may leapfrog a few boats on the course. Moonwave (60) is doing daggeboard mods this winter. The numbers predict that the new 57 is 2nd to only Elvis on the East Coast. So, it's not cut and dry. In the right hands and with the right mods they're all quick.

 

Long story short...choose the one that suits your taste. Some love the 60's, others love the 62, others the 66. My heart lies with the 62, but that's just opinion.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks all... I appreciate the feedback. How often are the handicap's changed on these boats? Seems like if you know the 66 then 62 then 60 then 55... Should be able to do some math to make them dead even for handicap stuff... All know I prefer strict OD, but it would suck to buy a boat that didn't have a chance because of simple math.

 

Soma/Mark - I'll follow up with you both offline... Just wanted to hear from others on this besides the company reps.

 

I really like the Outremer 5X, and the all carbon one on the market right now looks great - but the draft is the killer for me...

 

Best,

 

C.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks all... I appreciate the feedback. How often are the handicap's changed on these boats? Seems like if you know the 66 then 62 then 60 then 55... Should be able to do some math to make them dead even for handicap stuff... All know I prefer strict OD, but it would suck to buy a boat that didn't have a chance because of simple math.

 

So far the intent of the rule hasn't been a phrf/golf handicap style rating rule, it's been a pure numbers based VPP approach. We are seriously considering implementing a Club version of the rule that offers more opportunity for everyone to win, though. You'll see more about this soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Thanks all... I appreciate the feedback. How often are the handicap's changed on these boats? Seems like if you know the 66 then 62 then 60 then 55... Should be able to do some math to make them dead even for handicap stuff... All know I prefer strict OD, but it would suck to buy a boat that didn't have a chance because of simple math.

 

So far the intent of the rule hasn't been a phrf/golf handicap style rating rule, it's been a pure numbers based VPP approach. We are seriously considering implementing a Club version of the rule that offers more opportunity for everyone to win, though. You'll see more about this soon.

 

 

 

 

 

What this segment needs to really grow is a rating rule blessed by the major designers MM, Nigel, VPLP... and then administered by a real ratings organization - and to avoid a throwback to anything controlled or manipulated by a single builder-marketer with all the conflicts that entails

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Thanks all... I appreciate the feedback. How often are the handicap's changed on these boats? Seems like if you know the 66 then 62 then 60 then 55... Should be able to do some math to make them dead even for handicap stuff... All know I prefer strict OD, but it would suck to buy a boat that didn't have a chance because of simple math.

 

So far the intent of the rule hasn't been a phrf/golf handicap style rating rule, it's been a pure numbers based VPP approach. We are seriously considering implementing a Club version of the rule that offers more opportunity for everyone to win, though. You'll see more about this soon.

 

 

 

What this segment needs to really grow is a rating rule blessed by the major designers MM, Nigel, VPLP... and then administered by a real ratings organization - and to avoid a throwback to anything controlled or manipulated by a single builder-marketer with all the conflicts that entails

Egg Zachary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMHO your personal preference will come into play far more than the podium finishes if your main goal is cruising. Every line has interesting features that may appeal to you. I loved the layouts and cruising benefits of the 66's, and the 60's have an interesting use of space and a futuristic look. I haven't had any experience on the 62's, but there are some seriously sexy ones out there killing it on the race course. Make a list of what's really important to you and how you plan on using the boat - family cruising, racing, kids on board, crewed vs. owner-operated, locally based vs. world cruising, etc. This will help you narrow down where you are going. Another thing mentioned above to consider is what kind of refits each of these boats have gone through. They each have their own definite personalities. Soma is extremely knowledgable about all things Gunboat, and there are others here as well with an in-depth knowledge of catamarans available in today's market. One thing I do advise, if you go over 55 (and even at that size) you should seriously consider a professional crew to deal with the down and dirty of running a boat of this size and complexity. Good luck!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re the Naps show, Mark, see email, and Soma, see PM.

 

IMHO your personal preference will come into play far more than the podium finishes if your main goal is cruising. Every line has interesting features that may appeal to you. I loved the layouts and cruising benefits of the 66's, and the 60's have an interesting use of space and a futuristic look. I haven't had any experience on the 62's, but there are some seriously sexy ones out there killing it on the race course. Make a list of what's really important to you and how you plan on using the boat - family cruising, racing, kids on board, crewed vs. owner-operated, locally based vs. world cruising, etc. This will help you narrow down where you are going. Another thing mentioned above to consider is what kind of refits each of these boats have gone through. They each have their own definite personalities. Soma is extremely knowledgable about all things Gunboat, and there are others here as well with an in-depth knowledge of catamarans available in today's market. One thing I do advise, if you go over 55 (and even at that size) you should seriously consider a professional crew to deal with the down and dirty of running a boat of this size and complexity. Good luck!

 

As somebody who cruised long ago, like pre-GPS (RDF and Loran) ago, this whole "professional crew" thing to run the boat baffles us and is something we really want to better understand as that is certainly not our vision. Re the need for professional crew, in a word...

 

* Why?

 

What is driving that need? Why is it driven by size?

 

Soma hinted at this need talking about the 48, the 55 owner (that had sailing experience) that intended to be an owner/operator cruiser seemingly bailed on that dream fast, and here you are talking about it. Recognizing that we don't know what we don't know, you (gosailnow) seem to suggest that this is systems related. Are the systems (which ones) so complex you need hard earned/trained operating knowledge? Or the systems so high tech and lacking in robustness that you need specialized and deep maintenance and repairs experience?

 

There are Lagoons and FPs cruising RTW and there is an MM 50 that has been up and down the east coast and Bahamas without professional help (I think). Why is it often not the case for these higher end boats?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re the Naps show, Mark, see email, and Soma, see PM.

 

IMHO your personal preference will come into play far more than the podium finishes if your main goal is cruising. Every line has interesting features that may appeal to you. I loved the layouts and cruising benefits of the 66's, and the 60's have an interesting use of space and a futuristic look. I haven't had any experience on the 62's, but there are some seriously sexy ones out there killing it on the race course. Make a list of what's really important to you and how you plan on using the boat - family cruising, racing, kids on board, crewed vs. owner-operated, locally based vs. world cruising, etc. This will help you narrow down where you are going. Another thing mentioned above to consider is what kind of refits each of these boats have gone through. They each have their own definite personalities. Soma is extremely knowledgable about all things Gunboat, and there are others here as well with an in-depth knowledge of catamarans available in today's market. One thing I do advise, if you go over 55 (and even at that size) you should seriously consider a professional crew to deal with the down and dirty of running a boat of this size and complexity. Good luck!

 

As somebody who cruised long ago, like pre-GPS (RDF and Loran) ago, this whole "professional crew" thing to run the boat baffles us and is something we really want to better understand as that is certainly not our vision. Re the need for professional crew, in a word...

 

* Why?

 

What is driving that need? Why is it driven by size?

 

Soma hinted at this need talking about the 48, the 55 owner (that had sailing experience) that intended to be an owner/operator cruiser seemingly bailed on that dream fast, and here you are talking about it. Recognizing that we don't know what we don't know, you (gosailnow) seem to suggest that this is systems related. Are the systems (which ones) so complex you need hard earned/trained operating knowledge? Or the systems so high tech and lacking in robustness that you need specialized and deep maintenance and repairs experience?

 

There are Lagoons and FPs cruising RTW and there is an MM 50 that has been up and down the east coast and Bahamas without professional help (I think). Why is it often not the case for these higher end boats?

 

 

I think the phrase 'higher end' is the tell here. One doesn't get to a place in life where they can afford a multimillion dollar boat by tinkering all their lives down in the bilges and re-wiring a gizmo on the weekends. They are Type A, successful, used to paying for talent in their business(es) and would be unlikely to change that mind set once they've got their shiny new yacht. That is not to take away from them--rather it just acknowledges how these successful guys think.

 

They also are likely to still be well involved in their business world, not retired and dropping out of the world they know. Sailing and competing with a GB or similar is part of their world. I was just looking at one of the videos posted of these type of regattas and seeing the beautiful people with drinks in hand in the high end swanky waterfront bars and tent pavilions. This is not my world. It is not the world of a retired guy gone cruising. It's the world where, when the boat needs to get to the next regatta while you chair a board meeting, you have your 'man' make it happen.

 

I am not jealous. Not criticizing. But this is why having a 'professional' makes sense for someone who owns a GB over 50'. It is 'necessary' to enable this typical profile owner to maintain their life priorities, it is not necessary to just go sailing on an afternoon or weekend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re the Naps show, Mark, see email, and Soma, see PM.

 

 

IMHO your personal preference will come into play far more than the podium finishes if your main goal is cruising. Every line has interesting features that may appeal to you. I loved the layouts and cruising benefits of the 66's, and the 60's have an interesting use of space and a futuristic look. I haven't had any experience on the 62's, but there are some seriously sexy ones out there killing it on the race course. Make a list of what's really important to you and how you plan on using the boat - family cruising, racing, kids on board, crewed vs. owner-operated, locally based vs. world cruising, etc. This will help you narrow down where you are going. Another thing mentioned above to consider is what kind of refits each of these boats have gone through. They each have their own definite personalities. Soma is extremely knowledgable about all things Gunboat, and there are others here as well with an in-depth knowledge of catamarans available in today's market. One thing I do advise, if you go over 55 (and even at that size) you should seriously consider a professional crew to deal with the down and dirty of running a boat of this size and complexity. Good luck!

 

As somebody who cruised long ago, like pre-GPS (RDF and Loran) ago, this whole "professional crew" thing to run the boat baffles us and is something we really want to better understand as that is certainly not our vision. Re the need for professional crew, in a word...

 

* Why?

 

What is driving that need? Why is it driven by size?

 

Soma hinted at this need talking about the 48, the 55 owner (that had sailing experience) that intended to be an owner/operator cruiser seemingly bailed on that dream fast, and here you are talking about it. Recognizing that we don't know what we don't know, you (gosailnow) seem to suggest that this is systems related. Are the systems (which ones) so complex you need hard earned/trained operating knowledge? Or the systems so high tech and lacking in robustness that you need specialized and deep maintenance and repairs experience?

 

There are Lagoons and FPs cruising RTW and there is an MM 50 that has been up and down the east coast and Bahamas without professional help (I think). Why is it often not the case for these higher end boats?

 

Ever cleaned two 50+' hulls???

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Captains and maids, LOL.

 

Just not seeing it. The folks that own the M&M 50 Shooting Star seem to be doing fine and that is about as close to a perfect Mom and Pop performance cruising catamaran as I have run across.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Takes me about 3 hours including setup to wash the bottom (no barnacles) and I'm not a youngster.

I have GB5504 and singlehand it quite often and othertimes with inexperienced crew. The 55 is for me very easy to sailhandle and it is due to power winches, halyard locks and line layout. Could I get in over my head, you bet.

Coastal deliveries with four is a nice number and those crew are usually well known to me. I like cruising fast but slow to around 12 kts at night.

Perhaps I don't understand the entry level boat size question for paid hand(s). At some point I'll downsize but for now I like where I am. While sometimes I wish I had a fixit guy, ha, I'm it. Except for finicky electronics. The cool electronic features seem to make for a delicate system.

If I want to race I prefer OD midsize boats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Current owner of a GB 60 that has full time crew. Can I do it without the crew yes, and in fact as I write this I am cruising Maine without the crew while they are on their honeymoon. On board with family and friends. But long term as Veeger pointed out I want to enjoy the boat when I have the time and not be a slave to the boat.

 

This November I will do the delivery down to the Caribbean with the crew and some other friends because I enjoy that. But I can't spend the entire season down there so the crew is with the boat. No way I am going to leave the boat unattended. We don't charter but at times family and friends will go on the boat when I am not there. You need the crew for that, plus moving the boat around.

 

So yes as Jammy says and does, you can be an owner operator but it means a lot of time. I don't mind tinkering and fixing things but when I am on vacation last thing I want is to swap out a macerator pump or do some other dirty job. It's called division of labor, because in my personally circumstance I don't have the time to do it all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very true, lots of time for most any boat and more so for a new one. I'm headed down to the Chesapeake to get hauled before going south. You have great crew btw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having been there, done that myself, the biggest reason for professional crew is maintenance. The 'two 50' hulls' response above was only partially correct. There is also all the square and cubic footage in the connecting structure/bridge deck, and an amazing amount of hull side to polish. Keeping a 67' cat going in the West Indies with regular visits by the owner and/or his friends was a full time job for 3 people. In addition to general maintenance and cleaning, there's restocking the galley, refueling & watering, laundry, dealing with customs, moving the boat from island to island, etc. It's a fact of life that you have to support and maintain anything that you buy - either with your hands or your wallet. When the thing is 60'+ long X 30'+ wide X 90'+ tall, you don't have enough hands, unless you buy some extras... If I were the owner/operator of a 50-55' cat, I'd still find myself a kid to hire to help with the grunt work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always said that I was a dishwasher first and captain second. They say it takes 10,000 hours of practice to become an expert. I'm am now an expert dishwasher.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An oversimplified explanation would be this: Do you want to live on you boat full time, spending a good amount of that time on routine maintenance and dealing with fixing breakages? Or do you want to show up to a boat clean and sparkly, provisioned, and already in the area you want to cruise? Many people don't want to spend what time they have on the boat dealing with issues from broken alternator brackets to clogged black water systems. Also, a significant part of my time is spent on the computer coordinating contractors, shipping orders, warranty items, on and on. There is a lot of "behind the scenes" going on.

 

Rob, your crew is awesome! Jammy I believe we saw you in Block this summer? Good luck with the haul out!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a crafty thread hijack...

 

I'm in Rob's situation, and will use the boat in pretty much an identical fashion for the same reasons.

 

I've owned, run and chartered boats - the systems on the boat and boat maintenance don't scare me in the least. I'm familiar with most everything that the GBs would have except hybrid drives (if I went with a 60), but I'm not going to be living aboard, so will use crew the same way he will - luckily I know several that would fit the bill.

 

I really just want to know thoughts on Dagger v Centerboard, Turbo'd version of the 60 v normal, and the odds of a fairer handicap system to race boats straight up - Calling it a "club" rating is like calling the mansions in Mt. Desert cottages...

 

SO - any more thoughts on the versions of 55, 60, 62, 66?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not intentional, but guilty as charged. A painkiller on me if you are at the show Thursday.

 

I think if new your options are 57 or 68, no? Beyond that availability drives the used boat market and racing or cruising I sure would not want centerboards. If stock, the 62s are fastest. If doing turbo its a lot of time and scratch on top of a lot of scratch. Rating rules always change; why not just buy what you like.

 

Anyway, with the offer of free drinks as restitution made, I'm out. Sorry for the hijack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would definitely want daggerboards. The c-board fad came about when skippers used the original boards as reef finders. As these were short boards, the board tops were down inside the cases, so when the reef was found, the boards blew out the case inside the boat. Big ugly repair. So c-boards were thought to allow reef tickling as the board would just swing aft. And it frees up some space inside the hulls. But now you are stuck with tiny boards, an open slot adding lots of drag, a very highly loaded pivot point/head assembly, and control mechanisms below the waterline inside the hulls. Problems with the c-board cases/controls led to the GB breakup with HH building the boats.

I believe all the boats that have 'turbo' mods done have gone to deeper boards. Some have gone to "C" boards for lift. With the longer boards, the top stays at deck level, a much stronger support. The board fills the case at all times, so no drag regardless of board position. Just watch your fatho a bit closer, and/or pull the boards up before trying to beach your cat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK... Late night rant.

 

In my experience (and through my coaches over the years) winning races can be represented as a formula:

 

Win = f(boat speed, boat handling, tactics, strategery)

 

If you grant me this, with my thanks in advance, the notion of replacing center boards with daggerboards, taller masts, less weight, redistribution of weight, eelsnot coating, etc... Only impacts boat speed. The other pieces of boat speed are trim, movable ballast, and steering. Why should any Gunboat owner (only because they are my top brand at the moment) have to spend hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of dollars to make their boat competitive because of a math problem?

 

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that a fair rating system that crosses boats and brands needs to be established to allow "fair" racing. VPP calcs are hypothetical. As an economist and former database marketer, I can tell you that actual trump forecast over time. We are now getting enough data on Gunboats (over a decades worth) to make some much better math when we consider rating against one another.

 

Now, you could also argue that the other factors (which are driven by the quality of sailor) are at play here, and I would agree.

 

I could just be trying to build an argument for a 60 in my own head.

 

Done for the night. Have at it.

 

C.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^

your formulae should be rephrased win= f((bspdx2),handling, tactics, strategy)

 

The way cruising cats race speed is definitely king. courses are long, sailplans are pretty straightforward and not that complicated, not a lot of maneuvers/mi, boat on boat tactics are limited, and overall strategy is a crapshoot anyway.

 

YMMV...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK... Late night rant.

In my experience (and through my coaches over the years) winning races can be represented as a formula:

Win = f(boat speed, boat handling, tactics, strategery)

If you grant me this, with my thanks in advance, the notion of replacing center boards with daggerboards, taller masts, less weight, redistribution of weight, eelsnot coating, etc... Only impacts boat speed. The other pieces of boat speed are trim, movable ballast, and steering. Why should any Gunboat owner (only because they are my top brand at the moment) have to spend hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of dollars to make their boat competitive because of a math problem?

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that a fair rating system that crosses boats and brands needs to be established to allow "fair" racing. VPP calcs are hypothetical. As an economist and former database marketer, I can tell you that actual trump forecast over time. We are now getting enough data on Gunboats (over a decades worth) to make some much better math when we consider rating against one another.

Now, you could also argue that the other factors (which are driven by the quality of sailor) are at play here, and I would agree.

I could just be trying to build an argument for a 60 in my own head.

Done for the night. Have at it.

C.

w

 

You need a Rapido 60 , the best of all worlds !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Paul,

 

Beautiful boat - looks like you are having fun with it. I'm a lover of tri's but the cat is where I'm headed. Need the cabin space.

 

Best,

 

C.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those of you interested in the lightest and fastest GB66, check out

http://www.extremeh2o.com/

The announcement on the top of the home page might be of interest...

The website should be complete within 24 hours with all the download specs but in the meantime, enjoy the video and gallery

M

 

And yeah I know... BUY AN AD!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

$5.25 mil....honey have you seen my checkbook

Good, you found that information. I hope you were also able to find all the information we have provided about the weight, rig plan, hybrid system, deck layout and much more.... There will be more to come. It is a great boat for someone wanting to lineup in the Caribbean.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting to note that extremeH2O the lightest GB66 ever built has a lightship weight some 1300 kg heavier than the GB website, but the loaded displacements are more or less the same.

 

It would be nice to know what you reckon on extremeH2O's performance re:

A) average speed

B) max upwind speed

C) max speed achieved

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting to note that extremeH2O the lightest GB66 ever built has a lightship weight some 1300 kg heavier than the GB website, but the loaded displacements are more or less the same.

 

I was sure your comment was wrong but I checked. You're right. Gotta correct the website. That is inherited info. No GB66 weighs 15+. In fact, I was surprised that Extreme is as light as she is.

 

Extreme is definitely the most extreme Gunboat. I think their 24-hr record is 475nm? Can that be confirmed Trackday? Not bad for a cruising boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting to note that extremeH2O the lightest GB66 ever built has a lightship weight some 1300 kg heavier than the GB website, but the loaded displacements are more or less the same.

 

It would be nice to know what you reckon on extremeH2O's performance re:

A) average speed

B) max upwind speed

C) max speed achieved

I trust you found the detailed scale weights informative. I know the other GB owners will!

We will not be providing VPP information on the website as the boat, sails and rig have gone through a series of 6DF studies at considerable cost. The future owner should be the sole beneficiary of these studies as they apply to the existing setup of "ExtremeH2O".

M

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Interesting to note that extremeH2O the lightest GB66 ever built has a lightship weight some 1300 kg heavier than the GB website, but the loaded displacements are more or less the same.

I was sure your comment was wrong but I checked. You're right. Gotta correct the website. That is inherited info. No GB66 weighs 15+. In fact, I was surprised that Extreme is as light as she is.

 

Extreme is definitely the most extreme Gunboat. I think their 24-hr record is 475nm? Can that be confirmed Trackday? Not bad for a cruising boat.

 

Yep 475nm is correct.. sailing with the MH0/full main in a average of 17 TWS... she is faster now. You might find those scale weights I provided useful :) that includes 64,000 BTU's of A/C, all the Galley gear (that stove alone weighs 150 lbs), 4 refrigerators and the 2 hot water heaters. Not a bad way to race to Hawaii.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Interesting to note that extremeH2O the lightest GB66 ever built has a lightship weight some 1300 kg heavier than the GB website, but the loaded displacements are more or less the same.

I was sure your comment was wrong but I checked. You're right. Gotta correct the website. That is inherited info. No GB66 weighs 15+. In fact, I was surprised that Extreme is as light as she is.

Extreme is definitely the most extreme Gunboat. I think their 24-hr record is 475nm? Can that be confirmed Trackday? Not bad for a cruising boat.

Refer also to my earlier post #3.....

 

It is a good 24 hour run, which means an average speed of 19.8 knots for the trip.

 

To answer my own questions above, the theoretical fag packet speeds for extremeH20 are:

A) 17 knots, B) 17 knots, C) 34 knots. So her average 24 hour run will be around 400 Nm.

 

Just interested in comparing reality with theory.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Interesting to note that extremeH2O the lightest GB66 ever built has a lightship weight some 1300 kg heavier than the GB website, but the loaded displacements are more or less the same.

I was sure your comment was wrong but I checked. You're right. Gotta correct the website. That is inherited info. No GB66 weighs 15+. In fact, I was surprised that Extreme is as light as she is.

Extreme is definitely the most extreme Gunboat. I think their 24-hr record is 475nm? Can that be confirmed Trackday? Not bad for a cruising boat.

Refer also to my earlier post #3.....

 

It is a good 24 hour run, which means an average speed of 19.8 knots for the trip.

 

To answer my own questions above, the theoretical fag packet speeds for extremeH20 are:

A) 17 knots, B) 17 knots, C) 34 knots. So her average 24 hour run will be around 400 Nm.

 

Just interested in comparing reality with theory.......

 

Interestingly the 60 specs are correct...I haven't really checked the website for accuracy until today.

 

17 upwind sounds realistic. 20 kts sustained for 24 hours is pretty rare. As for max speed, I've hit 36.6 knots on a Gunboat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Interesting to note that extremeH2O the lightest GB66 ever built has a lightship weight some 1300 kg heavier than the GB website, but the loaded displacements are more or less the same.

 

I was sure your comment was wrong but I checked. You're right. Gotta correct the website. That is inherited info. No GB66 weighs 15+. In fact, I was surprised that Extreme is as light as she is.

Extreme is definitely the most extreme Gunboat. I think their 24-hr record is 475nm? Can that be confirmed Trackday? Not bad for a cruising boat.

Refer also to my earlier post #3.....

It is a good 24 hour run, which means an average speed of 19.8 knots for the trip.

To answer my own questions above, the theoretical fag packet speeds for extremeH20 are:

A) 17 knots, B) 17 knots, C) 34 knots. So her average 24 hour run will be around 400 Nm.

Just interested in comparing reality with theory.......

Interestingly the 60 specs are correct...I haven't really checked the website for accuracy until today.

 

17 upwind sounds realistic. 20 kts sustained for 24 hours is pretty rare. As for max speed, I've hit 36.6 knots on a Gunboat.

Thanks...... I should have said that the theoretical speeds are flat water speeds and don't include surfing. It also means that upwind, most of the time, you won't reach the theoretical max due to wave and pitching resistance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you to those who have contacted Extreme H2O via the email web link. We are working on the issues of handling the zip files on mobile devices but the meantime all of the content is available on desktops. The photo gallery is complete and all the specifications are ready to download.

 

A few questions have come in regarding how we use the 300VDC x 28.8Kwh battery bank and convert it to 3 phase 208 AC power to run the hydraulics and winches. For now, just know that this conversion is done using Variable Frequency Drives (VFD). Sometime in the future we may include a more complete description of power distribution on the boat. The single line drawing in "Tech>hybrid" is a good conceptual starting point. We are confident enough in the system to hold $500k of the purchase price in a escrow account to service any issues that may arise from generation to distribution.

 

In the meantime, please continue to enjoy the content

http://www.extremeh2o.com/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How difficult is to steer so big boat with the tillers?

We race the boat using the tillers 100% of the time after crossing the start line. Steering from the rail keeps keeps the driver in contact with hull fly, AWA, AWS and in constant communication with the mainsail trimmer. Tiller steering also makes the driver more sensitive in lee helm which in our situation is usually caused by the "C" boards creating negative leeway.

 

When the boat is being cruised or is in delivery mode, the crew still enjoys the inside steering station.

 

M

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The tiller and bucket seat solution that was developed for the Gunboat platform by Trackday will now be offered on all Gunboats going forward. It's a home run. At least 3 of the existing fleet have retrofitted. It solves the "wind in your face" complaint that many had about the Gunboats and inside helms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The tiller and bucket seat solution that was developed for the Gunboat platform by Trackday will now be offered on all Gunboats going forward. It's a home run. At least 3 of the existing fleet have retrofitted. It solves the "wind in your face" complaint that many had about the Gunboats and inside helms.

Wouldn't it be a hell of a lot cheaper to install a couple of powerful fans and maybe a water sprayer in the salon............................ :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Anyone know what the GB90 is going for and how it compares performance wise?

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2010/Gunboat-90-2770015/Southern-New-England/United-States#.V-8PYMkwo2w

I'd LOVE to see that thing sailed in anger. The C600 in 22-25 knots? Sick.

 

PM me for details if you want more info.

 

I'm a thousandaire. I just want you to tell me for entertainment purposes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Anyone know what the GB90 is going for and how it compares performance wise?

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2010/Gunboat-90-2770015/Southern-New-England/United-States#.V-8PYMkwo2w

I'd LOVE to see that thing sailed in anger. The C600 in 22-25 knots? Sick.

 

PM me for details if you want more info.

I'm a thousandaire. I just want you to tell me for entertainment purposes.

Thousandaire. I love it.

 

Short story short, it's never sailied "publicly" so it's hard to get a read. Anecdotally it's quick. They've reportedly hit 30's and flown a hull, so that's not bad. Somebody is going to get a helluva boat (eventually).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since this thread has touched the topic of ownership, what does it cost to keep these boats in the seemingly top condition they are in? Like 10% yearly of the price of a new build or something, and would that budget include the full time crew?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, money drain said:

Since this thread has touched the topic of ownership, what does it cost to keep these boats in the seemingly top condition they are in? Like 10% yearly of the price of a new build or something, and would that budget include the full time crew?

I don't think Gunboats are substantially different from most boats in this regard. The old rule of thumb (10%-20% of replacement cost) applies. Gunboats generally don't have the expense of maintaining lots of metal and wood (expansive teak decks, varnish, etc) but do have the amortized cost of nice sails, rigging, and hardware. You don't HAVE to have 3Di sails, but they're nice on a platform that really benefits from it. (Unrelated, but I was wondering what the race course delta would be between "Elvis" circa 2003 and "Elvis" today. The fleet (and the industry) have come a LONG way in those 14 years).

With that said, there is probably a 10:1 ratio between the operating budget of the most expensive program and the least expensive. It's up to the individual owner to decide where they want to fall on that spectrum. A summer of dockage at a swank marina in the NE can cost $75k alone. A mooring can be had for $1000. A bottom job in the NE can be upwards of $20k. In the Caribbean, it can be done for $5k. There are similar deltas for basically everything aboard. There is no right or wrong, just personal preference.

Everyone wants their boat maintained in "Bristol fashion"...until they get the bill.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/10/2017 at 3:23 PM, soma said:

I don't think Gunboats are substantially different from most boats in this regard. The old rule of thumb (10%-20% of replacement cost) applies. Gunboats generally don't have the expense of maintaining lots of metal and wood (expansive teak decks, varnish, etc) but do have the amortized cost of nice sails, rigging, and hardware. You don't HAVE to have 3Di sails, but they're nice on a platform that really benefits from it. (Unrelated, but I was wondering what the race course delta would be between "Elvis" circa 2003 and "Elvis" today. The fleet (and the industry) have come a LONG way in those 14 years).

With that said, there is probably a 10:1 ratio between the operating budget of the most expensive program and the least expensive. It's up to the individual owner to decide where they want to fall on that spectrum. A summer of dockage at a swank marina in the NE can cost $75k alone. A mooring can be had for $1000. A bottom job in the NE can be upwards of $20k. In the Caribbean, it can be done for $5k. There are similar deltas for basically everything aboard. There is no right or wrong, just personal preference.

Everyone wants their boat maintained in "Bristol fashion"...until they get the bill.

Thanks, interesting input. Not at all familiar with multihulls except for chartering and the Formula 18. Experimenting with a thought of doing a few years sabbatical cruising, but there will eventually come a time where the sabbatical is over and the cost/work and usage perspective becomes quite different.

For me 3Di sails seems like a sane choice economically, anyway, given cruising sails is not a option and the want to do a occasional race. In theory less need for replacing the sails over time, just the regular maintenance. So in a way safe package for long distance cruising. Only reason for me not using them on my current (racing) monohulls is that the there's a competing loft locally that beats the local North loft on design and thus performance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/26/2016 at 12:12 PM, soma said:

...Basically, the 62's are the fastest, the 66's next fastest, the 60 behind them, and then the 55's....

The 62 being the original boat? Tribe and Safari (etc)? The following boats got slower? Can you expand on this. I'm guessing I have something wrong, or the newer the boat the more standard equipment increased displacement. Still, that's a surprise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

M&M designs proved faster than the newer, NID designs. To be fair, may have been a different design parameter from GB/PJ on the 60s & 55s? The biggest deal breaker was the switch to  swing-down symmetrical centerboards on the newest gen (55's and 60's - all NID designs) gunboats. This isn't the only reason, but the biggest reason why they can't hang with the dagger-board (some asymmetrical) equipped 62's and 66's. I think the delta between the 62 and the 66 was due to the fact that the size & weight of the boat was substantially larger, but the rig wasn't as proportionally large. That said, Extreme H20 is a heavily modded 66 and is in hot competition with Elvis for 'world's fastest GB'. At the moment the score is Elvis -1, H20 - 0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Build methodology, too, moves the needle on weight. Kerfed core that's infused isn't light. The e-glass, wet-layup boats are pretty light. The carbon, wet-preg, nomex boats weren't bad either. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting, thank you. Where will the new 68 be on those metrics? Do we know yet?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are using thermo-formed core with infused carbon skins. So...middle of the road. A wet layup is impractical for production boatbuilding, especially in Europe. Prepreg would add about $1m per boat, so a big disincentive for the weight savings. 

 

We are using a lot of Nomex/prepreg for flat panel stuff (floors, bulkheads, etc). And furniture build methodology has greatly improved. The 68 won't approach the 62 in regards to weight, but it will be FAR more luxurious than the 62/66, and there's no reason it shouldn't be faster than the 62/66's (wider/taller/deeper/stiffer). It will have the refinement of the 55/60, too. The idea is the best of both worlds. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/12/2018 at 1:27 AM, dcnblues said:

The 62 being the original boat? Tribe and Safari (etc)? The following boats got slower? Can you expand on this. I'm guessing I have something wrong, or the newer the boat the more standard equipment increased displacement. Still, that's a surprise.

This (from FB) is kind of cool - Flow already had a bigger rig than any of the other 60's.., i think...

one advantage of the centerboards is that you can hit something.., but hitting anything with this would be a mess.

 

Image may contain: 1 person, sitting

Image may contain: one or more people, sky and outdoor

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is one of the most exciting upgrades ever within the fleet. The effect of replacing a medium sized mast with a large mast is sort of easy to predict. The result of replacing a short daggerboard with a long daggerboard is sort of easy to predict. Replacing a centerboard with a HUGE c-daggerboard could/should be huge, but we'll see. I reckon Flow will leap to the front of the fleet with this upgrade. This year's C600 will be VERY interesting to watch. Phaedo (maybe), Elvis, Flow, Fujin. Giddyup. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is Flow in Rhode Island now?

It's a tough time of year to sail to the Caribbean - are they shipping to Antigua? Not a lot of time...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/27/2018 at 8:24 AM, us7070 said:

This (from FB) is kind of cool - Flow already had a bigger rig than any of the other 60's.., i think...

one advantage of the centerboards is that you can hit something.., but hitting anything with this would be a mess.

 

 

 

 

Not quite true, at least not all the time. From what I've seen, most of the time, debris-strike damage still allow lifting dagger boards to be pulled out the top of the deck to enact repairs to the leading edge.

With a swing-center board boat like the 55's and 60's, YES the board usually breaks the sheer-pin and kicks up, however, 1) it often damages the hydraulic ram attached to the top of it (very fine balance to find on the sheer pin rating as many had problems with unwanted kick-ups from sailing loads) and 2 - and this is a BIG 2) the ENTIRE boat then has to be hauled out of the water to fix the board. We finally had to install some custom metal edge-guards on a 60 after having to haul out 3 times in 5 months to repair big chunks out of the leading edge of the boards!! Not ideal!!

Now of course if you hit something really big/heavy, or especially the BOTTOM, the swing-style centerboards would offer some safety since they won't act like a giant lever-arm and rip the hull in half. But in that case, you're gonna be fucking up a lot more than just the boards - especially if you have sail drives just behind them! So IMHO, if I were to be building a big cruising cat to use for cruising/passage-making/racing I would absolutely go with lifting boards for performance, convenience, safety, etc.

On that note, I would probably go with straight, asymmetric boards vs C-boards. The bearing assembly and structural design & support that comes with the C-boards adds a lot of complexity and weight. Yes the C-boards contour to the hull and take up less room on the interior, and yes I think on paper the offer better performance, but that said, I watched GB62 Elvis (straight/asymmetric boards) smoke GB66 Extreme H20 (massive C-boards) at the BVI Spring Regatta boat for boat in every race. Granted that was light air so hard to say that Elvis is faster in every situation, but for the convenience of having straight boards, she's fast enough for me!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/27/2018 at 5:24 AM, us7070 said:

This (from FB) is kind of cool - Flow already had a bigger rig than any of the other 60's.., i think...

one advantage of the centerboards is that you can hit something.., but hitting anything with this would be a mess.

That first pic is awesome! The stuff of jellyfish / cephalopod nightmares!

Thanks to all for the great info. Very interesting thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/29/2018 at 6:00 PM, LotsO'Knots said:

I watched GB62 Elvis (straight/asymmetric boards) smoke GB66 Extreme H20 (massive C-boards) at the BVI Spring Regatta boat for boat in every race. Granted that was light air so hard to say that Elvis is faster in every situation, but for the convenience of having straight boards, she's fast enough for me!

Elvls 15% lighter with a taller mast. Hard to attribute the performance delta to boards. Plus, did you see fat, old guy on traveler on Extreme? He can't trim for shit. 

I think you'd see a VERY different result in a typical C600 with 20-25 knots of breeze. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Daggerboard impact damage - boat speed about 8-9 knots. Hit a log or something very big at night. Really big thump. Messed up the bow first then hit the daggerboard. Easy to fix with the wood core. But a big hit to totally smash the wood that was there. I like daggerboards. Simple to operate and fix.

5a7175d8e4709_dagger(2of3).jpg.f4392f8f079fc85571622ca229a6c108.jpg5a7175d74a9de_dagger(1of3).jpg.1c078715e5d0045cfbe3d1bcdd125e19.jpg5a7175d531c89_dagger(3of3).jpg.93bad746bd504a26f1ad45cff4d86a3d.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/30/2018 at 9:45 PM, soma said:

Elvls 15% lighter with a taller mast. Hard to attribute the performance delta to boards. Plus, did you see fat, old guy on traveler on Extreme? He can't trim for shit. 

I think you'd see a VERY different result in a typical C600 with 20-25 knots of breeze. 

Fair point. Out of curiosity though - what would the delta be between 'Elvis A' with the existing straight boards and 'Elvis B' with similarly (proportionately) sized/designed curved boards? I ask because I heard from Flow that the decision to go with curved was more influenced by design (interior room) than performance, after looking at all the polars and 'paper speed'.... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to evade the question, but the answer is "depends". Depends who you ask, first of all. Depends on the course and conditions, as well. We went round the design loop with VPLP on the Gunboat 68 and the conclusion was straight asymmetric was fastest overall. But, traditional VPP models struggle to model the complex effects on RM, mast wag, surfing, and all the real world things that matter. "In theory, there's theory and practice. In practice there's only practice". If an A-class is a useful reference, then the conclusion is clear. Straight boards are slower. I think almost everyone would agree that C-boards are slower upwind. In a reaching race like the C600, though, my money would be on Elvis B. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, soma said:

Not to evade the question, but the answer is "depends". Depends who you ask, first of all. Depends on the course and conditions, as well. We went round the design loop with VPLP on the Gunboat 68 and the conclusion was straight asymmetric was fastest overall. But, traditional VPP models struggle to model the complex effects on RM, mast wag, surfing, and all the real world things that matter. "In theory, there's theory and practice. In practice there's only practice". If an A-class is a useful reference, then the conclusion is clear. Straight boards are slower. I think almost everyone would agree that C-boards are slower upwind. In a reaching race like the C600, though, my money would be on Elvis B. 

Soma, your comment reminded me of this old joke

A young boy went to his father and asked, "Dad, what's the difference 
between theory and reality?"

"Well, son, the best way to explain this is a practical exercise. Go ask 
your Mom if she'd sleep with a stranger a million dollars and come tell me
her answer."D:+	^p

The boy returned and said, " She said she would, Dad." "OK," replied the 
father, "Go ask your sister the same question." 

The boy returned and said that his sister also answered yes to the 
question and then asked his Dad, "What's this got to do with theory and 
reality?"

"It's simple, son. In theory, we live with millionaires.   
In reality, we live with a couple of sluts." 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now