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LionessRacing

Mizzen Staysail Designs

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The 54 yr old Mizzen Staysail that came from the "Frederick E Hood" loft in Marblehead has earned a gracious retirement.

 

 

Looking for thoughts on what to replace it with, style, cut and material.

I see two general sails: one for moderate reaching, TWA 70-110 or so, and deep reaching, TWA 120-165.

 

As these are low aspect ratio, they can be carried up to pretty good TWS.

 

Rig Dimensions: EP = 17.6, EY= 8.6. EB=18 (mizzen to Main spacing) Mizzen boom about 3.5' above sheerline.

 

 

Rough Pythagorean math gives a Luff up to 27', Foot up to 27' and a leech about 19'.with the Tack slightly to weather of the Main Mast and setback and outboard perhaps at the aft lower chainplates.

 

the line drawing here shows an example: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1650

 

 

Given that this is a pretty unusual sail and will be tacked to weather of the main boom, and sheet to the mizzen boom, its design will be interesting.

 

For the closer reaching sail, the tack might move inboard to centerline.

 

Material suggestions?

 

Vendors? (my default will be Hood)

 

example images ?

 

 

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I have made and tested several mizzen staysails. What I've found is that they behave much like staysails fed of the mainmast...a large staysail is faster but has a narrower window, a smaller staysail doesn't add as much speed but works over a wider AWA. What is drawn on old sailplans is usually too big. I would suggest bringing the tack aft about 20%, and the clew just overlap the mizzen mast a little (not go clear to end of mizzen boom).

For your boat I'd suggest a 1 1/2 oz nylon. If you're going to carry the sail on a beamish reach in a bit of breeze, then a code zero material (like DP's CZ line) has a bit less stretch. Either will handle stuffing in a bag (the nylon a bit better), which is the only practical way of handling a mizzen staysail. Vectran or Dynema is a better substitute for luff wire now, don't forget a chafe patch on luff where it hits the backstay. Also, don't forget that you may need a running backstay to mizzen masthead.

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Watching with interest.

I've got a mizzen staysail on my 17' cat ketch. It's pretty flat, made by some Chinese loft, works pretty well between about 80-150 TWA. I can't see any reason to tack it on centerline, since you want to get clear of the main. It's a fun sail, easy to fly and really makes a big difference in lighter winds.

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The 54 yr old Mizzen Staysail that came from the "Frederick E Hood" loft in Marblehead has earned a gracious retirement.

 

 

Looking for thoughts on what to replace it with, style, cut and material.

I see two general sails: one for moderate reaching, TWA 70-110 or so, and deep reaching, TWA 120-165.

 

As these are low aspect ratio, they can be carried up to pretty good TWS.

 

Rig Dimensions: EP = 17.6, EY= 8.6. EB=18 (mizzen to Main spacing) Mizzen boom about 3.5' above sheerline.

 

 

Rough Pythagorean math gives a Luff up to 27', Foot up to 27' and a leech about 19'.with the Tack slightly to weather of the Main Mast and setback and outboard perhaps at the aft lower chainplates.

 

the line drawing here shows an example: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1650

 

 

Given that this is a pretty unusual sail and will be tacked to weather of the main boom, and sheet to the mizzen boom, its design will be interesting.

 

For the closer reaching sail, the tack might move inboard to centerline.

 

Material suggestions?

 

Vendors? (my default will be Hood)

 

example images ?

 

 

Do you run a mizzen spinnaker? Obviously that does have an influence on the choice.

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I have made and tested several mizzen staysails. What I've found is that they behave much like staysails fed of the mainmast...a large staysail is faster but has a narrower window, a smaller staysail doesn't add as much speed but works over a wider AWA. What is drawn on old sailplans is usually too big. I would suggest bringing the tack aft about 20%, and the clew just overlap the mizzen mast a little (not go clear to end of mizzen boom).

For your boat I'd suggest a 1 1/2 oz nylon. If you're going to carry the sail on a beamish reach in a bit of breeze, then a code zero material (like DP's CZ line) has a bit less stretch. Either will handle stuffing in a bag (the nylon a bit better), which is the only practical way of handling a mizzen staysail. Vectran or Dynema is a better substitute for luff wire now, don't forget a chafe patch on luff where it hits the backstay. Also, don't forget that you may need a running backstay to mizzen masthead.

Thanks for the thoughtful suggestions.

 

Using a tack turtle now for the old one, agree that's the only practical way to handle through gybes.

 

Have double ended halyard and sheet and just dowse into turtle, unclip sheet and halyard from sail, clip together, gybe main, toss it to the new windward side and run the leeward halyard and sheet up to set.

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The 54 yr old Mizzen Staysail that came from the "Frederick E Hood" loft in Marblehead has earned a gracious retirement.

 

 

Looking for thoughts on what to replace it with, style, cut and material.

I see two general sails: one for moderate reaching, TWA 70-110 or so, and deep reaching, TWA 120-165.

 

As these are low aspect ratio, they can be carried up to pretty good TWS.

 

Rig Dimensions: EP = 17.6, EY= 8.6. EB=18 (mizzen to Main spacing) Mizzen boom about 3.5' above sheerline.

 

 

Rough Pythagorean math gives a Luff up to 27', Foot up to 27' and a leech about 19'.with the Tack slightly to weather of the Main Mast and setback and outboard perhaps at the aft lower chainplates.

 

the line drawing here shows an example: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1650

 

 

Given that this is a pretty unusual sail and will be tacked to weather of the main boom, and sheet to the mizzen boom, its design will be interesting.

 

For the closer reaching sail, the tack might move inboard to centerline.

 

Material suggestions?

 

Vendors? (my default will be Hood)

 

example images ?

 

Do you run a mizzen spinnaker? Obviously that does have an influence on the choice.

That's my thought on the deeper sail. Not allowed a windward pole, and have narrow transom, so guy position is a bit of a trick. Can possibly set above backstay with essentially a foreguy and transom guy, but my backstay crosses mizzen about boom high, and we have radar on spar.

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Watching with interest.

I've got a mizzen staysail on my 17' cat ketch. It's pretty flat, made by some Chinese loft, works pretty well between about 80-150 TWA. I can't see any reason to tack it on centerline, since you want to get clear of the main. It's a fun sail, easy to fly and really makes a big difference in lighter winds.

 

Close reaching my main boom would be perhaps 30 degrees and vanged. Probably need to bring tack off rail to get staysail not luffing, that's part of experimentation

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my experience of ketches is that for deeper reaching the mizzen and mizzen staysail become superfluous at higher wind speeds as it pays to keep the sail area forward with larger twa's unless the wind is very light, probably under 12 knots depending on the boat, so this should be a light sail. One of the advantages of a ketch for this point of sail is the more forward position of the mainmast.

 

For the flatter sail used around the beam reach then they are very useful as the main driver of weather helm at these angles seems to be heeling, so generally keeping the mizzen staysail and reefing the main is faster.

 

Also when you size your mizzen staysail picture yourself dropping it shorthanded at in a windy squall with the gennaker still to get to.

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We are a yawl, and our polars & experience suggest best VMgdown is near 165 TWA for most winds I care about 5-20 without having to run a pole.

 

With mizzen behind rudder post the helm contribution is non trivial, not so much from old staysail, though RKoch comment on shorter foot is apt.

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If you mean project to windward, no. First, the staysail flies to leeward (in front) of the backstay, even when tacked to windward. There's no point in trying to get the luff to project, as it will only wad up at the backstay. Also, you want as little interference with the mainsail as possible, not blanketing the mainsail, or the foot getting too close to the mainsail. Simple triangle shape. Sheet it to the mizzen boom when cracked off enough. From broad reach on back, it may be better to lower the mizzen.

Nylon can be crosscut or bi/tri radial. CZ material might as well be tri radial.

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I raced on a swan 76 ketch a couple of weeks ago that had a mizzen staysail, in my opinion it was too big, the tack point was just behind the windward main mast shrouds, it added speed though. Will try and post a picture if I can find one. We discussed about having a smaller one for reaching that could be tacked on the centreline and potentially have battens

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If you mean project to windward, no. First, the staysail flies to leeward (in front) of the backstay, even when tacked to windward. There's no point in trying to get the luff to project, as it will only wad up at the backstay. Also, you want as little interference with the mainsail as possible, not blanketing the mainsail, or the foot getting too close to the mainsail. Simple triangle shape. Sheet it to the mizzen boom when cracked off enough. From broad reach on back, it may be better to lower the mizzen.

Nylon can be crosscut or bi/tri radial. CZ material might as well be tri radial.

 

 

Not so much project to windward, as project upwards, essentially luff roach, like an Asail though the backstay might negate that, moving the tack toward center might allow a projected luff to fit under it,

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If you mean project to windward, no. First, the staysail flies to leeward (in front) of the backstay, even when tacked to windward. There's no point in trying to get the luff to project, as it will only wad up at the backstay. Also, you want as little interference with the mainsail as possible, not blanketing the mainsail, or the foot getting too close to the mainsail. Simple triangle shape. Sheet it to the mizzen boom when cracked off enough. From broad reach on back, it may be better to lower the mizzen.

Nylon can be crosscut or bi/tri radial. CZ material might as well be tri radial.

 

Not so much project to windward, as project upwards, essentially luff roach, like an Asail though the backstay might negate that, moving the tack toward center might allow a projected luff to fit under it,

When you tighten the halyard, luff roach is going to collapse. Try pulling a spinnaker luff really tight. And if you don't pull the staysail halyard tight it's going to sag off and interfere with the main.

What you're talking about is a mizzen spinnaker, but you can't beam reach with it.

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which is why I am thinking two sails...

 

A close/beam reaching staysail that would be flatter and more genoa like, and a deep reaching that is more spinnaker like.

 

I can see making the close reaching sail's luff more nearly parallel to the forestay, for aesthetics, and to reduce interference with the main, though in my case that would put it about at the front of the cockpit which would be awkward.

Next jump forwards (over the dodger and liferaft) is about 6'.

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There's an ancillary issue, which is under PHRF of Nor Cal there is no restriction on mizzen staysails when racing non-spinnaker, it only limits to one headsail at a time, as compared to PHRF-NE which prohibits "free flying" sails.

 

http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/ncphrf_rules_and_guidelines.pdf

 

Not sure if a Mizzen staysail becomes a Mizzen spinnaker and where the crossover is? Is it the side of the backstay? (staysail to leeward, spinnaker to weather? )

 

And does non spinnaker prohibit them?

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The old rating rules like IOR considered anything flying from the mizzen a staysail, no matter the shape. That's how yawls and ketches got by flying 'two spinnakers', which ordinarily is illegal. PHRF is very subjective however, so your situation is up to the whims of your committee. I suspect that any mention of the word 'spinnaker' is going to freak them out. I'd suggest asking the PHRF committee what their limits regarding mizzen staysails are, and get it in writing.

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We currently have the definition where only Non spinnaker means single headsail as above.

 

If I have two mizzen staysails as in multiple foresails, and only use one at a time, I think I'm good until I start beating people.

If that's enough to drive NCPHRF to change the rules then so be it.

 

Think its time to get some quotes to think about.

thanks for the assistance

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The 54 yr old Mizzen Staysail that came from the "Frederick E Hood" loft in Marblehead has earned a gracious retirement.

 

 

Looking for thoughts on what to replace it with, style, cut and material.

I see two general sails: one for moderate reaching, TWA 70-110 or so, and deep reaching, TWA 120-165.

 

As these are low aspect ratio, they can be carried up to pretty good TWS.

 

Rig Dimensions: EP = 17.6, EY= 8.6. EB=18 (mizzen to Main spacing) Mizzen boom about 3.5' above sheerline.

 

 

Rough Pythagorean math gives a Luff up to 27', Foot up to 27' and a leech about 19'.with the Tack slightly to weather of the Main Mast and setback and outboard perhaps at the aft lower chainplates.

 

the line drawing here shows an example: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1650

 

 

Given that this is a pretty unusual sail and will be tacked to weather of the main boom, and sheet to the mizzen boom, its design will be interesting.

 

For the closer reaching sail, the tack might move inboard to centerline.

 

Material suggestions?

 

Vendors? (my default will be Hood)

 

example images ?

Do you run a mizzen spinnaker? Obviously that does have an influence on the choice.

That's my thought on the deeper sail. Not allowed a windward pole, and have narrow transom, so guy position is a bit of a trick. Can possibly set above backstay with essentially a foreguy and transom guy, but my backstay crosses mizzen about boom high, and we have radar on spar.

 

You typically don't use a pole on a mizzen spinnaker - it is usually tacked to the deck or windward rail with a strop. Here is a pic for reference - this is an 80 footer with all the rags up - about 27,000 sqf of sail area - somewhat narrow window where it was fast

 

DSCN5575-1.jpg

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I'll be interested to hear what you do, its not exactly a common topic these days. I just cruise now and only do a classic style event once or twice a year so I'm happy with one sail. For me thats a bigger flatter sail( also an old Hood). That way I can play with tack position and halyard tension depending on what angle . Like you say ..65 to 165. As for the spinnaker, if I'm running deep enough for that its better with the mizzen down.

 

That pic of Christians above...very cool thanks.. I'd still call that a mizzen staysail.

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I crewed on a former Whitbread Maxi Ketch. The mizzen sail inventory was extensive, but refined. In addition to the mizzen, I recall we had a No. 1 Staysail, a No. 2 Staysail, a No. 2 VL Staysail, a No. 3 Staysail and we might have had a No. 4 (but I am not sure). We also had a huge Reaching Gennaker and a huge Running Gennaker. The Gennakers were massive; and devastatingly fast.

For your purposes, this is clearly an unnecessarily large and extensive inventory. However, some information can be gleaned from it. Most importantly, Halsey/Lidgard in Auckland created this inventory. I would contact them and see what input and advice they have. It may be they have the most extensive knowledge of these types of sails than almost any other loft since there hasn’t been any development in this area for quite some years.

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I raced this thing a lot in the Caribbean. Typically French aluminium 102 footer called Marama, essentially a stretched IOR maxi. As you can see, the mizzen staysail added huge metric quantities of horsepowder.

 

Tacked on the rail, with a 6:1 tack tackle, wound down till the luff was just touching the main backstay. Essentiall to cover that area of the luff with anti-chafe stuff - even leather. Wire luff in it.

 

marama5.jpg

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Nice.

Such easy sails to handle too. Mines about 400 ft, bear away a bit and dump it right in the middle of the boat... great cruising option , we barely get the gennaker out nowdays. 80-20 sail.

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Had a chat with Robin of the Sausalito Hood loft and he's going to work up a few ideas after a consult with Oz loft.

 

My old sail has symmetric luff/foot measurements and is miter cut, probably an old 1.2 oz nylon.

 

We played with tack position and the new Inboard Jib tracks at Aft lower shroud seem a good fit for the old one, moving it out to rail when a bit farther off wind required diddling with the halyard,

the Chafe and tack tackle suggestions have great merit.

 

S

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I'll be interested to hear what you do, its not exactly a common topic these days. I just cruise now and only do a classic style event once or twice a year so I'm happy with one sail. For me thats a bigger flatter sail( also an old Hood). That way I can play with tack position and halyard tension depending on what angle . Like you say ..65 to 165. As for the spinnaker, if I'm running deep enough for that its better with the mizzen down.

 

That pic of Christians above...very cool thanks.. I'd still call that a mizzen staysail.

 

It really is a spinnaker - or more precisely a gennaker/asym. The inventory also had a mizzen staysail for tighter angles set on a temporary stay.

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3 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

 

that is one odd (but sweet) looking sail they have there..  like a very short-luffed zero.

Need more mizzen sheet, though.

4 outa 5 aint bad!

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On 1/13/2018 at 2:11 PM, WoobaGooba said:

I'd be asking the Actaea folks ...

 

 

IMG_2983.JPG

Mike and Connie have transformed Actaea into quite a boat over the last 20 plus years.

Was aboard her in 20001, last I knew she was a Mark III with a Sloop height custom twin spreader mast done in Carbon, and a reworked keel & rudder. 

Lioness is a Mark 1 and has the lower aspect rig. 

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I’d contact Kevin Miller of North Sails Channel Islands(Ventura,) since he was/is in charge of Dorade’s sail inventory. I’m sure they’ve done more R&D on mizzen staysails on slow boats than anyone, maybe by two orders of magnitude.

And he’s a really nice guy who just had his house destroyed by that massive fire.

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