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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

Maserati on Foils

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Maserati in spectacular video: from catsailingnews.com

 

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I know you must mean uptip foil, not "J", right?

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Looking fast is not the real story, we've all been in flashy fast feeling cars only to see the latest Gti Hatchback blow us away on the first meet. Is she any faster over a days sailing than the very refined and tested Mod 70's out there which are up around 600 - 650 miles a day. One only has to look at how she changes her pitch and has to bare away to keep up on foils, to see how unrefined she is.

 

Maybe in time full foiling will be able to average faster long passages, but I would doubt that will be sooner rather than later.

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Looking fast is not the real story, we've all been in flashy fast feeling cars only to see the latest Gti Hatchback blow us away on the first meet. Is she any faster over a days sailing than the very refined and tested Mod 70's out there which are up around 600 - 650 miles a day. One only has to look at how she changes her pitch and has to bare away to keep up on foils, to see how unrefined she is.

 

Maybe in time full foiling will be able to average faster long passages........

 

No shit?!

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No. The boat was like this when bought. One C foil, one J foil. No money to make & install J foil in the other ama.

Wow, really? And no extra reinforcement?

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Look at the video closer. Ya'll are missing the biggest key to this one, they are foiling on a T foil centerboard. It's a 4 point foiling solution with a J in the ama, T-foil rudders on all three hulls and a T-foil in the main hull. Arguably more stable than the other attempts but agreed that it has a long way to go. I wonder how much weight was added to reinforce the boat? I suspect the other MOD70 teams are just as interested in the tech behind this as we are, not worried about getting beat by a boat they also own and can modify to create a semi one-design foiling ocean racing class.

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I know you must mean uptip foil, not "J", right?

Sense of humor Doug? Well done

Nah, Rawhide, incorrect, wrong, DL has a sub-zero sense of humour; especially regarding his imbalanced uptiP fixation, you fool. No offense intended though. Cheers..

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Look at the video closer. Ya'll are missing the biggest key to this one, they are foiling on a T foil centerboard. It's a 4 point foiling solution with a J in the ama, T-foil rudders on all three hulls and a T-foil in the main hull. Arguably more stable than the other attempts but agreed that it has a long way to go. I wonder how much weight was added to reinforce the boat? I suspect the other MOD70 teams are just as interested in the tech behind this as we are, not worried about getting beat by a boat they also own and can modify to create a semi one-design foiling ocean racing class.

 

I'll be damned ,you're right-holy shit I can't believe it! I told you guys it worked!!

 

This model has one-with wand altitude control-wonder what they use if anything?

 

sg216b.jpg

 

do2ftk.jpg

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More: http://maserati.soldini.it/

 

First trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability on the horizontal loading-bearing surface of her centerboard, Maserati Multi70 brilliantly puts into practice Guillaume Vernier and his Team’s idea of flying on three resting points using a load-bearing centerboard, L-foil and a rudder instead of the two rudders and single foil adopted on America’s Cup cats

 

No, the Fire Arrow was the first trimaran to fly with a daggerboard foil in combo with uptip foils!

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Here is the full text about Maserati using a daggerboard foil with ama foils-the system pioneered by the Fire Arrow Test Model two years ago and developed over the previous 6 years:

 

First* trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability on the horizontal loading-bearing surface of her centerboard, Maserati Multi70 brilliantly puts into practice Guillaume Vernier and his Team’s idea of flying on three resting points using a load-bearing centerboard, L-foil and a rudder instead of the two rudders and single foil adopted on America’s Cup cats.
Giovanni Soldini and his Team are engaged in a new challenge as they endeavour to turn Maserati Multi70 into the first ocean-going flying trimaran. An ambitious project that spans not just Guillaume Vernier’s excellent work (he worked on the modifications to her appendages) but also over 4.000 nautical miles of sailing clocked up by the Team this summer.
The straight central daggerboard plays a revolutionary role in this new flying trim as the horizontal load bearing surface at its end generates lift, raising the boat out of the water. “When Maserati Multi70 rises up on her lateral foil and rudder, the daggerboard wing acts as a third resting point – the central and largest one”.
Tests in wind of 40 knots have demonstrated that Maserati Multi70 is now much more stabilized and able to fly in conditions unthinkable before. Safely tackling also big seas.


* Fire Arrow was the first trimaran to use this configuration!

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Holy shit Doug I am actually really happy for you! You are more like a crazy scientist than an engineer but this still gives you bragging rights for at least a couple of years! :rolleyes:

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Well, I might be able to get a smaller proto built now that there is more proof that the Fire Arrow configuration works.

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Here is a shot of a concept model of a 12' LOA X 17' wide foiling tri using the same system with planing amas-ama foils not shown:

 

15ppi02.jpg

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It doesn't have the intrinsic altitude control/ heave stability of an uptip foil. But they can probably foil on it intermittently.

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Well, I might be able to get a smaller proto built now that there is more proof that the Fire Arrow configuration works.

Doug, I raise your "concept" with something that is actually being built, by actual high end racers.

http://superfoiler.com/

 

Im sure if a center mounted foil was ideal, these guys would have done it, considering they have just invested over a million fun tickets.

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Ideal for what? Super Foiler looks like a great boat. Maserati, a group of actual high end racers, has built and tested the daggerboard foil system working with an uptip foil and found it "ideal" for their requirements.

The Fire Arrow configuration is also ideal for light air takeoff with a small tri as well as being able to develop extra RM as required thru mainfoil downforce. It is capable of being built with Welbourn foils or uptip foils. Welbourn foils are ideal on a small tri for keeping the platform narrow(for trailering) while having tremendous RM as a result of the lee main foil. The Fire Arrow System is ideal for people to enjoy foiling without athletic requirements in great comfort throughout the windrange.

 

 

Well, I might be able to get a smaller proto built now that there is more proof that the Fire Arrow configuration works.

Doug, I raise your "concept" with something that is actually being built, by actual high end racers.

http://superfoiler.com/

 

Im sure if a center mounted foil was ideal, these guys would have done it, considering they have just invested over a million fun tickets.

 

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Ideal for Stability, Speed, Efficiency, Weight Reduction etc etc etc

 

Superfoiler is a complete new design.

Maserati is a modified platform. One would be safe to bet the Beams and amas could not handing the increased loads of full foiling without major modification (weight increase) and that specific platform's best outcome is share the foiling load.

If they had an open cheque book to build a new Platform, I bet it wouldn't look like it does.

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I'll bet more boats will use the Fire Arrow configuration.

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sorry Doug, By that you mean a Multi Main Foil combination. You do not own, nor did you invent everything new (which is actually old) in foil design.

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Sorry MSA, the Fire Arrow foil configuration is the first time a dual altitude control system with ama uptip foils and a wand controlled main foil was used on any trimaran of any size in the history of the world. Maserati has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the basic system works well on large scale applications.

This system has profound advantages for small trimarans under 20' not the least of which is light air flying.

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Fire Arrow System Advantages
One of the great advantages of using a properly designed UptiP foil on a foiling trimaran ama is SIMPLICITY: on the Fire Arrow the ama foil has NEVER needed to have the angle of incidence adjusted while sailing as is common on many UptiP foil applications. And if the foil is properly designed for it's application ,it's efficiency will be apparent. As shown in the pictures below the lee ama flies before the main hull, but as soon as the boat speeds up and the main hull flies the lee ama altitude remains the same. That illustrates that the lee UptiP foil is working PERFECTLY in two different load and speed cases.See pix "A" and "B" below.
The Fire Arrow uses a wand controlled main foil which controls the altitude of the main hull and the angle of heel of the whole boat. Further, and this is very important: the wand controlled main foil works with the single rudder T-foil in a bi-foiler arrangement and the two together control the ride angle of the lee ama UptiP foil. That prevents pitch excursions caused solely by the lee ama foil.
The way the mainfoil works is that as soon as the main hull flies the mainfoil begins to unload with the lee ama foil gradually taking the majority of load. That allows the mainfoil to work with the rudder T -foil to control the pitch of the boat with far more pitch authority than on a conventional tri. And, using a wand controlled(or similar) foil on the daggerboard allows the main hull to fly MUCH SOONER than it would if it had to wait for wind pressure to do it.
The mainfoil can also develop substantial downforce* increasing the righting moment in response to gusts. All this is done 100% automatically making for a simple, robust system that requires ZERO crew attention!
* with downforce, the main foil works similarly to a Moth foil with Veal Heel, generating a component of lift to windward.See illustration below.
-------
The vertical portion of the ama foil is at +3 degrees AOI. The vertical portion of the daggerboard is at zero degrees. So the UptiP ama foil is developing lift to windward to allow leeway coupling and develop lateral resistance for the boat particularly upwind.
In stronger conditions, when the main foil develops down force( upwind), the leeway components are greater than the vertical portion of the UptiP foil can effectively handle, there is a small extra component of lift to windward(due to downforce)-while the vertical portion of the ama foil is still working at 100%. The daggerboard is designed to be unloaded by the lee ama foil to reduce drag and facilitate leeway coupling.
However, it should be pointed out that the ama foil will still provide substantial vertical lift with little to no leeway coupling-like can occur off the wind. Lift substantially(and automatically) increases upwind because of leeway coupling.
----
Testing clearly shows the progression of the boat to full foiling from the problems encountered at the beginning-the last video is 100% proof that the foil system worked perfectly-regardless of any uninformed attempt to say otherwise. See the 9/16 video of Maserati to see the basic Fire Arrow system in use on a 70' tri. But testing is not done yet even though we reached a major milestone with the boat foiling in a 5 mph wind while using two different altitude control systems simultaneously. But July 24th, 2014 was a major accomplishment for the boat after a great deal of development-and we will build on that as testing and evaluation continues. Next step is to test Welbourn ama foils in place of uptip foils and build a fullsize prototype.
Attributes of the Fire Arrow foil configuration:
1) allows an oversquare trimaran to foil in very light air,
--
2) allows full foiling upwind and downwind completely automatically without any adjustments by the crew,
--
3) allows for retractable foils controlled from the cockpit,
--
4) allows the lee UptiP ama foil, with an AOI of +3 degrees, to unload the daggerboard(AOI zero degrees) for reduced drag and enhanced leeway coupling.
--
5) the foil system has considerably greater pitch authority than any conventional trimaran,
--
6) allows automatic control of the angle of heel of the whole boat,
--
7) allows automatic control of the ride angle of the lee ama UptiP foil.
--
8) allows mainfoil to automatically unload as the mainhull flies ,dramatically reducing drag.
--
9) allows automatic gust response with instantaneous increases in righting moment (automatically) as required.
--
10) allows a "Two Stage" ama that provides back up buoyancy if needed but allows the part of the ama that would normally make incidental contact with the water, to be as small as practical.
=================

 

2ih44dj.jpg

29eofp4.jpg
4ftw0z.jpg

post-30-0-16597600-1475242311_thumb.jpg

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Sorry MSA, the Fire Arrow foil configuration is the first time a dual altitude control system with ama uptip foils and a wand controlled main foil was used on any trimaran of any size in the history of the world. Maserati has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the basic system works well on large scale applications.

This system has profound advantages for small trimarans under 20' not the least of which is light air flying.

Doug,

both Fire Arrow and Maserati haven´t proved anything (yet). Because having big enough foils to lift a boat at a big enough speed is something that didn´t need proving, we already new that.

 

What is unique both in Fire Arrow and in Maserati, is the subtle combination of many features, foil profiles, planforms, angles, control, etc and its interactions with the rest of the boat and the application. All of this needs a LOT OF TESTING and refining to PROVE that the application is better solved with this, than the more traditional approaches.

 

Until this development happens, neither boat has proven anything, but are just starting the process. In your case, several steps behind, because it is a scale boat and has sailed very little.

 

your rudder is central and maserati´s are in the floats, so your configuration is still unique I guess. Why don´t you go ahead and develop it?

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Wrong. Beams on a MOD70 can handle the full foiling loads just fine-there is video evidence showing that above. The amas and beams have to take 100% of the righting moment and weight of the boat as is, because when these guys are pushing 700 mile days they are doing so with little else in the water besides the leeward rudder and leeward C board. The reality is ocean going tris have been foiling for the better part of the last decade, they just haven't been FLYING while doing so, and I'm not entirely convinced FLYING is better in the southern ocean or iceberg/container ridden north Atlantic.

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If you read what Team Maserati said, they have tested the basic Fire Arrow configuration extensively! Maserati has rudder T-foils on all three hulls while the Test Model has a single large T-foil on the main hull. Maserati has an uptip foil on the stb ama and a lifting foil-the largest foil on the boat(like the Fire Arrow)- on the daggerboard for the first time on any full size trimaran.

The fact is that the Fire Arrow Test Model successfully tested this foil system in 2014 for the first time on any size trimaran and Maserati has tested a full size version of the basic system successfully on a 70' tri. It is a revolutionary system with tremendous advantages for a foiling trimaran from 12' LOA on up!

Since finding out about Maserati, I'm leaning toward finding a way to go ahead with a 14-16' proto-no more model testing-Maserati has done it for us. I may modify the test model to try Welbourn ama foils on a narrower platform. They appear to have dramatic advantages for a small tri.

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If you read what Team Maserati said, they have tested the basic Fire Arrow configuration extensively! Maserati has rudder T-foils on all three hulls while the Test Model has a single large T-foil on the main hull. Maserati has an uptip foil on the stb ama and a lifting foil-the largest foil on the boat(like the Fire Arrow)- on the daggerboard for the first time on any full size trimaran.

The fact is that the Fire Arrow Test Model successfully tested this foil system in 2014 for the first time on any size trimaran and Maserati has tested a full size version of the basic system successfully on a 70' tri. It is a revolutionary system with tremendous advantages for a foiling trimaran from 12' LOA on up!

Since finding out about Maserati, I'm leaning toward finding a way to go ahead with a 14-16' proto-no more model testing-Maserati has done it for us. I may modify the test model to try Welbourn ama foils on a narrower platform. They appear to have dramatic advantages for a small tri.

 

OK, got it. Once enough teams put enough money into it, we´ll see what happens. It´ll be interesting if they race or record hunt.

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If you look at previous videos of Maserati or other "foiling" tris the thing you'll notice is the frequent contact of the mainhull with the water. And then look at the latest video of Maserati foiling and there is a huge difference.

One thing I don't know yet about Maserati is whether or not it is using some form of active control of the main foil. The Fire Arrow uses a wand but could also use a surface piercing t-foil or manual control. I'm looking forward to finding out. For a small tri a wand system is the ideal solution or possibly a manual system for racing.

On a small tri using my system downforce from the main foil is a big deal providing angle of heel control and instant gust response as well as other advantages.

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They are also driving all over the place and sheeting and trimming hard to keep the boat going. This works okay on dinghys (build a 14'-16' version, better yet a 24' version to take to Alaska!!), but big ocean going boats where generally you don't deviate more than 5degrees from course for several hundred miles...yeah, not sure that is faster.

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Seems to me they might have been posturing for the helicopter that was shooting some of the video? Don't think they were racing.....

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I doubt that was the reason....... May also have something to do with whether or not they have active control of the main foil......

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From the Maserati and other sources:

 

1)For her two upcoming events (the Rolex Middle Sea Race starting October 22 2016 and RORC Transatlantic Race starting November 26 2016), Maserati Multi70 will be adopting this new appendage configuration which has the advantage of allowing adjustment of the height of the foil and the horizontal load-bearing surface at the end of the centreboard (rather than the rudder) as well as the angle of incidence of the latter surface, thereby efficiently minimising slamming. This is a further guarantee of safe, stable sailing for a genuinely futuristic trimaran.

 

2)In the spirit of ongoing experimentation, the Team is now working hard on readying the second flying foil and making modifications to the foil system to deliver better control. They are doing likewise with the sail plan. The overall aim is, naturally, to boost Maserati Multi70s performance still further. The team is also lightening the boat which it is estimated will leave the yard on October 10. A short period of sea trials will then begin off La Spezia before she sets a course for Malta for her Rolex Middle Sea Race debut on October 22

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Before it was Maserati it was Gitana. Interesting that Maserati-so far-only as a stb UptiP foil while Gitana had a port and stb uptip foil:

 

 

xgcz8x.jpg

 

 

2vj1mqo.jpg

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Here is the full text about Maserati using a daggerboard foil with ama foils-the system pioneered by the Fire Arrow Test Model two years ago and developed over the previous 6 years:

 

First* trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability on the horizontal loading-bearing surface of her centerboard, Maserati Multi70 brilliantly puts into practice Guillaume Vernier and his Team’s idea of flying on three resting points using a load-bearing centerboard, L-foil and a rudder instead of the two rudders and single foil adopted on America’s Cup cats.

Giovanni Soldini and his Team are engaged in a new challenge as they endeavour to turn Maserati Multi70 into the first ocean-going flying trimaran. An ambitious project that spans not just Guillaume Vernier’s excellent work (he worked on the modifications to her appendages) but also over 4.000 nautical miles of sailing clocked up by the Team this summer.

The straight central daggerboard plays a revolutionary role in this new flying trim as the horizontal load bearing surface at its end generates lift, raising the boat out of the water. “When Maserati Multi70 rises up on her lateral foil and rudder, the daggerboard wing acts as a third resting point – the central and largest one”.

Tests in wind of 40 knots have demonstrated that Maserati Multi70 is now much more stabilized and able to fly in conditions unthinkable before. Safely tackling also big seas.

 

* Fire Arrow was the first trimaran to use this configuration!

 

I wrote to Team Maserati as soon as I heard what they had done to congratulate them and send them pictures and a link to the Design/Build Log here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-test-model-36058-160.html

No word back yet.

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No. The boat was like this when bought. One C foil, one J foil. No money to make & install J foil in the other ama.

 

See post 40-when the boat was Gitana it had port and stb uptip ama foils...........At any rate, they say they're about to install the new port foil.

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Here is the full text about Maserati using a daggerboard foil with ama foils-the system pioneered by the Fire Arrow Test Model two years ago and developed over the previous 6 years:

 

First* trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability on the horizontal loading-bearing surface of her centerboard, Maserati Multi70 brilliantly puts into practice Guillaume Vernier and his Team’s idea of flying on three resting points using a load-bearing centerboard, L-foil and a rudder instead of the two rudders and single foil adopted on America’s Cup cats.

Giovanni Soldini and his Team are engaged in a new challenge as they endeavour to turn Maserati Multi70 into the first ocean-going flying trimaran. An ambitious project that spans not just Guillaume Vernier’s excellent work (he worked on the modifications to her appendages) but also over 4.000 nautical miles of sailing clocked up by the Team this summer.

The straight central daggerboard plays a revolutionary role in this new flying trim as the horizontal load bearing surface at its end generates lift, raising the boat out of the water. “When Maserati Multi70 rises up on her lateral foil and rudder, the daggerboard wing acts as a third resting point – the central and largest one”.

Tests in wind of 40 knots have demonstrated that Maserati Multi70 is now much more stabilized and able to fly in conditions unthinkable before. Safely tackling also big seas.* Fire Arrow was the first trimaran to use this configuration![/size]

 

I wrote to Team Maserati as soon as I heard what they had done to congratulate them and send them pictures and a link to the Design/Build Log here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-test-model-36058-160.html

No word back yet.

Good grief.

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Here is the full text about Maserati using a daggerboard foil with ama foils-the system pioneered by the Fire Arrow Test Model two years ago and developed over the previous 6 years:

 

First* trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability on the horizontal loading-bearing surface of her centerboard, Maserati Multi70 brilliantly puts into practice Guillaume Vernier and his Team’s idea of flying on three resting points using a load-bearing centerboard, L-foil and a rudder instead of the two rudders and single foil adopted on America’s Cup cats.

Giovanni Soldini and his Team are engaged in a new challenge as they endeavour to turn Maserati Multi70 into the first ocean-going flying trimaran. An ambitious project that spans not just Guillaume Vernier’s excellent work (he worked on the modifications to her appendages) but also over 4.000 nautical miles of sailing clocked up by the Team this summer.

The straight central daggerboard plays a revolutionary role in this new flying trim as the horizontal load bearing surface at its end generates lift, raising the boat out of the water. “When Maserati Multi70 rises up on her lateral foil and rudder, the daggerboard wing acts as a third resting point – the central and largest one”.

Tests in wind of 40 knots have demonstrated that Maserati Multi70 is now much more stabilized and able to fly in conditions unthinkable before. Safely tackling also big seas.

 

* Fire Arrow was the first trimaran to use this configuration!

 

I wrote to Team Maserati as soon as I heard what they had done to congratulate them and send them pictures and a link to the Design/Build Log here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-test-model-36058-160.html

No word back yet.

 

 

what do you expect them to say?

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Here is the full text about Maserati using a daggerboard foil with ama foils-the system pioneered by the Fire Arrow Test Model two years ago and developed over the previous 6 years:

 

First* trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability on the horizontal loading-bearing surface of her centerboard, Maserati Multi70 brilliantly puts into practice Guillaume Vernier and his Team’s idea of flying on three resting points using a load-bearing centerboard, L-foil and a rudder instead of the two rudders and single foil adopted on America’s Cup cats.

Giovanni Soldini and his Team are engaged in a new challenge as they endeavour to turn Maserati Multi70 into the first ocean-going flying trimaran. An ambitious project that spans not just Guillaume Vernier’s excellent work (he worked on the modifications to her appendages) but also over 4.000 nautical miles of sailing clocked up by the Team this summer.

The straight central daggerboard plays a revolutionary role in this new flying trim as the horizontal load bearing surface at its end generates lift, raising the boat out of the water. “When Maserati Multi70 rises up on her lateral foil and rudder, the daggerboard wing acts as a third resting point – the central and largest one”.

Tests in wind of 40 knots have demonstrated that Maserati Multi70 is now much more stabilized and able to fly in conditions unthinkable before. Safely tackling also big seas.* Fire Arrow was the first trimaran to use this configuration![/size]

 

I wrote to Team Maserati as soon as I heard what they had done to congratulate them and send them pictures and a link to the Design/Build Log here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-test-model-36058-160.html

No word back yet.

what do you expect them to say?

Maybe Doug's hunting for a royalty or design fee?

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1) a rectification that maserati was not the first foiling tri, but a stationary model/lawn ornament

2) the use of "UpTIp" in every pressrelease

3) The recognition as a worldclass foil designer and visionary in need of a good design office

4) the use of red fonts for every team statement

5) the clearance to say "you don't know what you're talking about" when it is about development

6) the clearance to say "it works because i tested it on my stationary model and it works flawless on my lawn from the first time"

7) contact with an AC team to tell them he designed all their foils

8) a free Quant

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Just when you thought he had reached his zenith of ego and shamelessness......

 

But NO - he is the gift that keeps on giving.

 

You would not be able to convince anyone that such characteristics exist in a real person - yet here in digital perpetuity we have the basis for what will be the basis for a great comedy book/screenplay.

Hollywood beckons......

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I just changes my ignore settings, and wonder of wonders this thread got much shorter.

I used to have a link in my signature to make that change quick and easy but decided it was technically bullying so got rid of it. Some would consider it s public service.

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Here is the full text about Maserati using a daggerboard foil with ama foils-the system pioneered by the Fire Arrow Test Model two years ago and developed over the previous 6 years:

 

First* trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability on the horizontal loading-bearing surface of her centerboard, Maserati Multi70 brilliantly puts into practice Guillaume Vernier and his Team’s idea of flying on three resting points using a load-bearing centerboard, L-foil and a rudder instead of the two rudders and single foil adopted on America’s Cup cats.

Giovanni Soldini and his Team are engaged in a new challenge as they endeavour to turn Maserati Multi70 into the first ocean-going flying trimaran. An ambitious project that spans not just Guillaume Vernier’s excellent work (he worked on the modifications to her appendages) but also over 4.000 nautical miles of sailing clocked up by the Team this summer.

The straight central daggerboard plays a revolutionary role in this new flying trim as the horizontal load bearing surface at its end generates lift, raising the boat out of the water. “When Maserati Multi70 rises up on her lateral foil and rudder, the daggerboard wing acts as a third resting point – the central and largest one”.

Tests in wind of 40 knots have demonstrated that Maserati Multi70 is now much more stabilized and able to fly in conditions unthinkable before. Safely tackling also big seas.

 

* Fire Arrow was the first trimaran to use this configuration!

 

Maserati has made a major contribution to modern trimaran design-but they were not the first to use the new configuration-the Fire Arrow was. But they are the first to use the basic configuration on a 70' tri and the extensive testing they have already done proves once and for all that the basic configuration works on any size tri. Hopefully, the Fire Arrow configuration will be able to prove itself on small tri's as well where the advantages over a "normal" trimaran configuration are numerous including automatic altitude control of the ama foil, wand controlled main foil with the automatic capability to generate vertical lift or downforce( to increase RM in response to gusts) and to accurately control pitch and the ride angle of the ama uptip foil. The downforce capability on small tris allows a wider platform w/o the disadvantages inherent in a wider platform with a "normal" configuration.

And finally, using a wand controlled lifting main foil on a wide ,small, tri allows light air takeoff-which is key to giving customers what they want in a foiler: to be able to fly throughout the wind range. You don't have to wait for the wind to be strong enough to lift the main hull on a wide platform.

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I think Maserati's biggest problem is his insistency to have everything painted RED - rather than their classy Blue/White.

 

Death of a Brand?

 

Maybe they will get their name changed to MaSeRaTi

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Doug - why did you only give them the "Basic" version????

 

Did they not want to pay for the "RR* Competition" version? (RR* = Really Red)

 

Oh, sorry, that's right, you didn't give them anything......

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DL, you are just bloated full of defecation.

A questioning word in your shell-like ear.

Not that you will listen since your hugely inflated ego blocks all communication or criticism.

Ever heard of Derek Kelsall and Eugene Rigudel?

Kelsall designed a trimaran named VSD.

There were two built, and VSD 2 won the long distance Transat en Double.

Both of them had inverted T type lifting foils under the MAIN hull.

The year for the first VSD, a 52 foot trimaran foiler was 1978 and VSD 2 the following year.

You didn't know that?

Because if you did you wouldn't SHOUT out your bonkers claims of being the first with your (copyist) pond toy, how many years later, 36-37 bloody years?

There were other designs that followed soon after with T foils under the main hull, the most notable (or infamous) was the 85 foot maxi foil trimaran Charles Heidsieck. You obviously don't know about that boat either, otherwise you would have kept your ridiculous claims to yourself.

Will post images tomorrow just to enlighten you some more?

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Fire Arrow Foil System as used on Test Model-3 foils in the water-mainfoil unloads with speed:

 

do2ftk.jpg

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Groucho, bloodshot,

 

Thanks for posting that, I had never heard of it. It looks very much like Hydropter with the exception of the main foil. Very cool... what were its issues, ie why aren't there hundreds of versions running around?

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DL, you are just bloated full of defecation.

A questioning word in your shell-like ear.

Not that you will listen since your hugely inflated ego blocks all communication or criticism.

Ever heard of Derek Kelsall and Eugene Rigudel?

Kelsall designed a trimaran named VSD.

There were two built, and VSD 2 won the long distance Transat en Double.

Both of them had inverted T type lifting foils under the MAIN hull.

The year for the first VSD, a 52 foot trimaran foiler was 1978 and VSD 2 the following year.

You didn't know that?

Because if you did you wouldn't SHOUT out your bonkers claims of being the first with your (copyist) pond toy, how many years later, 36-37 bloody years?

There were other designs that followed soon after with T foils under the main hull, the most notable (or infamous) was the 85 foot maxi foil trimaran Charles Heidsieck. You obviously don't know about that boat either, otherwise you would have kept your ridiculous claims to yourself.

Will post images tomorrow just to enlighten you some more?

 

Just not true about "inverted T" type foils!!!!! These foils don't even compare to the main foil on the Fire Arrow or on Maserati.

 

click--VSD

post-30-0-37762400-1476375962_thumb.jpg

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Here is the full text about Maserati using a daggerboard foil with ama foils-the system pioneered by the Fire Arrow Test Model two years ago and developed over the previous 6 years:

 

First* trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability on the horizontal loading-bearing surface of her centerboard, Maserati Multi70 brilliantly puts into practice Guillaume Vernier and his Teams idea of flying on three resting points using a load-bearing centerboard, L-foil and a rudder instead of the two rudders and single foil adopted on Americas Cup cats.

Giovanni Soldini and his Team are engaged in a new challenge as they endeavour to turn Maserati Multi70 into the first ocean-going flying trimaran. An ambitious project that spans not just Guillaume Verniers excellent work (he worked on the modifications to her appendages) but also over 4.000 nautical miles of sailing clocked up by the Team this summer.

The straight central daggerboard plays a revolutionary role in this new flying trim as the horizontal load bearing surface at its end generates lift, raising the boat out of the water. When Maserati Multi70 rises up on her lateral foil and rudder, the daggerboard wing acts as a third resting point the central and largest one.

Tests in wind of 40 knots have demonstrated that Maserati Multi70 is now much more stabilized and able to fly in conditions unthinkable before. Safely tackling also big seas.

 

* Fire Arrow was the first trimaran to use this configuration!

Maserati has made a major contribution to modern trimaran design-but they were not the first to use the new configuration-the Fire Arrow was. But they are the first to use the basic configuration on a 70' tri and the extensive testing they have already done proves once and for all that the basic configuration works on any size tri. Hopefully, the Fire Arrow configuration will be able to prove itself on small tri's as well where the advantages over a "normal" trimaran configuration are numerous including automatic altitude control of the ama foil, wand controlled main foil with the automatic capability to generate vertical lift or downforce( to increase RM in response to gusts) and to accurately control pitch and the ride angle of the ama uptip foil. The downforce capability on small tris allows a wider platform w/o the disadvantages inherent in a wider platform with a "normal" configuration.

And finally, using a wand controlled lifting main foil on a wide ,small, tri allows light air takeoff-which is key to giving customers what they want in a foiler: to be able to fly throughout the wind range. You don't have to wait for the wind to be strong enough to lift the main hull on a wide platform.

The delusion is strong in this one.

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Heidseick was described as " foil assisted"-doesn't appear to have a rudder T-foil-and no picture showing the boat actually flying the main hull. Heidseick was designed with what may have been the first canting rig and had a planing main hull. It was seriously overweight and never foiled. No comparison to the Fire Arrow Foil System used on the Test Model and on Maserati!


----


The Fire Arrow System uses a T-foil with a wand controlled flap in combination with an uptip foil on each ama and a rudder T-foil. And it is a foiler. Heidseick doesn't use the same system-not even close.


Maserati also controls the AOI on their main foil and uses it in combination with an uptip foil and rudder t foil.


The Fire Arrow Foil System used by both the Test Model and by Maserati uses three foils in the water:


1) lifting main foil on the daggerboard with active or manual AOI control,


2) uptip ama foil that automatically controls ama flight altitude,


3) rudder t foil on main hull or ama that works with the other two foils to control pitch.


There has never been a trimaran foiler that uses these type foils in this combination on a full flying foiler until the Fire Arrow Test Model ,first, and then the 70' Maserati second.




Article on"Charles Heidseick IV" : http://www.vaton-des...heidseick_4.htm translatable




"Keel, in very remote position, supports a foil in inverted "V" having the function slightly lift the rear (1.5t to 20 knots) This rear lift compensates the prancing due to the speed.Moreover, the horizontal holding of the boat being stabilized, the work is facilitated foils, the keel fin with him, a drift-making function of the rear portion, the side foils pushing the middle front part of the boat. Downwind, the boat will be taken online and the energy usually lost by slippage will be recovered.


Finally, this protects the keel rudder large shocks, wrecks and other ..."

post-30-0-60945300-1476377825_thumb.jpg

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Looks as if Doug got there first with his design, and it's hard to imagine that anyone building things similar to it can have been unaware of Fire Arrow. I doubt they'll be keen to admit it though, particularly as Maserati has already been ridiculed here by people wanting to get in another dig at Doug. The part that has yet to be copied is the generation of downforce, but maybe the use of wands for that isn't allowed in the races or record attempts that a boat like Maserati is targeting, or the extra strength and weight required may hinder them more than it helps. For a small foiler aimed at severely disabled sailors though, Doug's design could be the best that's yet been devised to date due to that downforce making it hard to capsize, and if scaled up to 40ft it could be the basis of a much more attractive product than the Gunboat G4 for the same reason.

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I can't decide if this is the best troll ever, a sock, or the other half of a Pinky and the Brain episode.

 

Either way it is so funny I canntt look away.

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I can't decide if this is the best troll ever, a sock, or the other half of a Pinky and the Brain episode.

 

Either way it is so funny I canntt look away.

Was just thinking the same thing.

 

Carry on. 😄

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From the Maserati site:

In the spirit of ongoing experimentation, the Team is now working hard on readying the second flying foil and making modifications to the foil system to deliver better control. They are doing likewise with the sail plan. The overall aim is, naturally, to boost Maserati Multi70’s performance still further. The team is also lightening the boat which it is estimated will leave the yard on October 10. A short period of sea trials will then begin off La Spezia before she sets a course for Malta for her Rolex Middle Sea Race debut on October 22.[/color][/i]

-----

For her two upcoming events (the Rolex Middle Sea Race starting October 22 2016 and RORC Transatlantic Race starting November 26 2016), Maserati Multi70 will be adopting this new appendage configuration which has the advantage of allowing adjustment of the height of the foil and the horizontal load-bearing surface at the end of the centreboard (rather than the rudder) as well as the angle of incidence of the latter surface, thereby efficiently minimising slamming. This is a further guarantee of safe, stable sailing for a genuinely futuristic trimaran.

================

David, we know that Maserati can adjust the AOI of her main foil. She can have downforce at any time if the structure will handle it.

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David, we know that Maserati can adjust the AOI of her main foil. She can have downforce at any time if the structure will handle it.

 

Maybe, but would it automatically react to gusts or is it only adjusted manually? I don't think anyone's quite caught up with your design yet, and they may well hold back from doing so because they don't want their boat to have your name associated with it, which means you've cunningly come up with a system of protecting a design for free that's stronger than any patent.

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Doug, I repeat, you are so full of defecation your brain is sogged shut with excrement and fantasies.

So Gilles Vaton's 1973 foiler design is different than your 2015 or 16 pathetic pond toy copy? And your "design" is very close to plagiarism. Vaton will be perhaps pursuing you for breach of copyright. I hope he stings you for millions for all your lying and BS.

Here are the images.

Oh, yes, Doug, you revealed again your weak nautical history and ignorance. There were two VSDs, you posted the first with the shark fin foils, the second had two sets of inverted T foils under the main hull.

That was 1979.

How many years ahead of your "breakthrough" pond invention.

Three and a half decades!.

Did I say you were full of defecation?

And yes, here is another Vaton design PACA which arrived a year or two after Charles Heidsieck; very much the same philosophy and with foils also under the main hull.

post-100779-0-31088000-1476394296_thumb.jpg

post-100779-0-50431600-1476394490_thumb.jpg

post-100779-0-60246500-1476394550_thumb.jpg

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Neither one of Vatons boats resembles the Fire Arrow System in the least!! Neither use rudder T-foils. Neither use active main foil control. Neither uses uptip ama foils. Neither are foilers! What a pitiful joke.

Your problem is you don't understand how the Fire Arrow Foil System works so you desperately try to find "examples" from the past which turn out to be laughably ridiculous in terms of being remotely like the Fire Arrow System used on Maserati and on the Test Model!!

----

And one other thing: anyone who knows anything about foiling tri design can see in the pictures you posted that the main foil is waaay too far aft for a foiler and at best would work for "foil assist". These , like your boats are simply not foilers-thats why you can't find a single picture of any of these boats(or your own boats for that matter) foiling.

---

You best give it up Gary-you're pissing in the wind.......

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And a couple more images to ram your excrement where it belongs.

This is VSD no. 1 with the shark fin foils, 1978.

And VSD no 2 with the inverted T foils leading Paul Ricard after the start of the 1979 Transat en Double.

 

Oh, I've just read your wet and weak and delusional reply.

You need help.

post-100779-0-29272400-1476395164_thumb.jpg

post-100779-0-89568700-1476395184_thumb.jpg

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David, we know that Maserati can adjust the AOI of her main foil. She can have downforce at any time if the structure will handle it.

 

Maybe, but would it automatically react to gusts or is it only adjusted manually? I don't think anyone's quite caught up with your design yet, and they may well hold back from doing so because they don't want their boat to have your name associated with it, which means you've cunningly come up with a system of protecting a design for free that's stronger than any patent.

 

Groucho - Don't be such a grouch. Have you read the last line of this? This could have been the greatest troll of all time on SA. This had GOAT status. Couldn't you just have let it be?

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And a couple more images to ram your excrement where it belongs.

This is VSD no. 1 with the shark fin foils, 1978.

And VSD no 2 with the inverted T foils leading Paul Ricard after the start of the 1979 Transat en Double.

 

Oh, I've just read your wet and weak and delusional reply.

You need help.

And neither one is foiling, repeat, (like your own boats) neither one is foiling!!!

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Hey grouchie, this is what foiling looks like-not grainy black and white seahuggers:

 

Maserati Flying on Basic Fire Arrow Foil System, 7/18/16:

picture from Maserati gallery--

2ntg3tg.jpg

Fire Arrow flying in 5 mph wind 7/24/14:

71lmw3.jpg

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David, we know that Maserati can adjust the AOI of her main foil. She can have downforce at any time if the structure will handle it.

 

Maybe, but would it automatically react to gusts or is it only adjusted manually? I don't think anyone's quite caught up with your design yet, and they may well hold back from doing so because they don't want their boat to have your name associated with it, which means you've cunningly come up with a system of protecting a design for free that's stronger than any patent.

 

Really !!! you muust be joking

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And once again Doug uses freeze frames to prove his boat works. The guy in Perth sails his models in a full on sea breeze, long periods up on foils, gybing, tacking, you can see clearly his boats work, if they don't he changes things and tries again.

You Doug are a nothing but a Charlatan. Your boat staggers and sways around the pond lurches and crashes from foiling and you freeze frame a few shots and claim proof, what utter bullshit. You have had two years to refine it and make it work but you spent the time at your pc churning out red text and the same freeze frame pics infinitum.

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You just don't know what you're talking about regarding my boats performance-just made up crap. The last day of testing proved that the foil system worked 100% perfectly taking off in a 5mph breeze. Based on that and the testing and development that led up to that and on Maserati's extensive testing using the same basic foil system it's time to build a small full size version to continue development. There might be a limited degree of model testing should I decide to use Welbourn-type foils on a narrower platform instead of uptip foils. But, thanks to Maserati, the probability is that model testing is done and the next step is a full size 14-16' prototype.

post-30-0-45094000-1476410673_thumb.jpg

post-30-0-27503800-1476410688_thumb.jpg

post-30-0-33981200-1476410748_thumb.jpg

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Is there any video, that we can all see, with the fire arrow sailing anything like this above example???

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Sure, the video was shot by unicorns, edited by aliens, and is awaiting upload alongside various videos promised by clean.

 

Doug's claim to originality is similar to a crazy man claiming patent for yelling Bob Dylan lyrics at pigeons, while standing on one leg, naked except for a red hat with sparkles and blue socks with spots. It may be original, but only in such a specific combination. Fire arrow performance is just as worth replication as the Bob Dylan fan.

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That's a foiling video. I'm not questioning your knowledge Doug (who am i) but when you post a video like this one, you will be taken more seriously

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That's a foiling video. I'm not questioning your knowledge Doug (who am i) but when you post a video like this one, you will be taken more seriously

 

Ian Holts boats are fantastic! However, the Fire Arrow is a 100% scale Test Model using a foiling configuration never before used in the history of mankind. The Fire Arrow weighs around three times of one of Ians boats. The Fire Arrow is just for testing and we did all the testing that was necessary to prove the technical side of the configuration before real life intervened to prevent further testing since 7/24/2014. The news about Maserati using the same basic Fire Arrow Foil System is a big break since they have exhaustively tested it and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt how well it works.

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Doug, Could you explain it again? Because even after 300 repetitive post I still don't understand and wonder why you are so proud of a bathtub toy that nobody else cares about.

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That's a foiling video. I'm not questioning your knowledge Doug (who am i) but when you post a video like this one, you will be taken more seriously

 

Ian Holts boats are fantastic! However, the Fire Arrow is a 100% scale Test Model using a foiling configuration never before used in the history of mankind. The Fire Arrow weighs around three times of one of Ians boats. The Fire Arrow is just for testing and we did all the testing that was necessary to prove the technical side of the configuration before real life intervened to prevent further testing since 7/24/2014. The news about Maserati using the same basic Fire Arrow Foil System is a big break since they have exhaustively tested it and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt how well it works.

 

 

What exactly is it a scale model of? You do know that

Did u use Froude scaling for the hulls and Reynolds for the foils? I am not an expert in this area but i would really like to understand your thought process. Did you also add vortex inducers to simulate the boundary layer growth along the hull that would happen in the bigger boat?

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