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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

Maserati on Foils

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I'd be interested to see a translation of the Italian in the new video posted Maserati posted on Facebook an hour ago, looked like they were talking about the foils as the boat sailed along.

Nothing special. After a light night, they got the boat foiling downwind in around 15 knots

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One off-excellent finish, light- probably about 40000. Best first proto will be 14-15' singlehander probably around 25 grand. Built by a well known local cat builder whose work is excellent.

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Look at the video closer. Ya'll are missing the biggest key to this one, they are foiling on a T foil centerboard. It's a 4 point foiling solution with a J in the ama, T-foil rudders on all three hulls and a T-foil in the main hull. Arguably more stable than the other attempts but agreed that it has a long way to go. I wonder how much weight was added to reinforce the boat? I suspect the other MOD70 teams are just as interested in the tech behind this as we are, not worried about getting beat by a boat they also own and can modify to create a semi one-design foiling ocean racing class.

 

I'll be damned ,you're right-holy shit I can't believe it! I told you guys it worked!!

 

This model has one-with wand altitude control-wonder what they use if anything?

 

sg216b.jpg

 

do2ftk.jpg

 

 

Looking at the size of these foils, the model was most likely just floating on the foils, not flying! :D

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The foils were designed to allow the boat to take off in a 5mph breeze(4.35 knots). What I'm sure you don't realize is that the mainfoil begins to unload right after take off which reduces induced drag for that foil to zero. Beyond that point the mainfoil automatically develops downforce allowing instant gust response and increased RM as required. There is no trimaran other than the Fire Arrow and possibly Maserati* that has this kind of capability. The Test Model represents a 19.5' tri with a 22' beam and an oversquare platform like that would never take off in light air w/o this foil system. The combination of very light air foiling capability and exceptional RM due to the oversquare beam with downforce capability give this boat tremendous potential speed throughout the windrange.

* not 100% sure of the control system capability of the Maserati main foil.

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Crash!

Fire Arrow Foil System temporarily gone due to a serious collision with an underwater object which literally tore off the stb rudder and foil, rudder post and bearings! Since it was the stb side(where they have an uptip foil) they may have had to remove the main foil as well because without the rudder foil the main foil and uptip foil won't work. Too bad for the Team! http://maserati.sold...damaged-rudder/

 

They don't specifically say they removed the main foil. They may be able to leave it in with very little to no lift on it. The stb uptip foil has to come out. And they were already sailing w/o the port uptip foil. Imagine -one collision and 10 years+ back in time!

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Bad luck on Maserati, but this has left me confused because I finally looked closely at the foil configuration of Maserati and was expecting to see the same as the Fire Arrow shown above. It seems that Maserati has rudders on the ama's as well as a central one. They say the rudders on the ama are critical to flight. The Fire Arrow uses a single rudder on the central hull. Isn't that a significant difference. In addition, the Fire Arrow uses a wand on the central main foil to control ride height, while Maserati doesn't and uses manual adjustment so that the crew can set the AoA of the foil, sort of a "non active" system. Finally, I was surprised to see that Maserati don't use "uptip" foils and that the foils on the ama are actually open L style. In the few pictures you can see of the leeward foil, you can see that it is parallel to the surface.

 

Surely the only similarity between Fire Arrow and Maserati is that they both have "main" foils on the central hull and ama's. Those foils work differently while the rudder systems are different.

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Sorry, but I have deleted my comments because if Doug wants to make delusional claims about his model, I really don't care a shit any more. Enjoy your 15 minutes in your own mind.

Edited by A Class Sailor

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Bad luck on Maserati, but this has left me confused because I finally looked closely at the foil configuration of Maserati and was expecting to see the same as the Fire Arrow shown above. It seems that Maserati has rudders on the ama's as well as a central one. They say the rudders on the ama are critical to flight. The Fire Arrow uses a single rudder on the central hull. Isn't that a significant difference. In addition, the Fire Arrow uses a wand on the central main foil to control ride height, while Maserati doesn't and uses manual adjustment so that the crew can set the AoA of the foil, sort of a "non active" system. Finally, I was surprised to see that Maserati don't use "uptip" foils and that the foils on the ama are actually open L style. In the few pictures you can see of the leeward foil, you can see that it is parallel to the surface.

 

Surely the only similarity between Fire Arrow and Maserati is that they both have "main" foils on the central hull and ama's. Those foils work differently while the rudder systems are different.

 

Maserati uses an uptip* foil on the stb ama and plan to on the port ama. A rudder T-foil is a rudder T-foil --she has one on each ama with the "left over" normal (Mod 70) central rudder with no foil. I know that a central rudder t-foil will work better on under 20' versions of the Fire Arrow system but their rudder T-foil on the ama works which is what counts right now. The fact is that Fire Arrow is the first trimaran ever to use an actively controlled main foil. Based on one comment I read I think Maserati's main foil is manually controllable which might be better than a wand on such a big boat.

Keep in mind-its not a foiler w/o a rudder t-foil on this type of configuration.

But Maserati uses the basic Fire Arrow Foil System** for the first time ever on a full size tri. Or should I say used. Just when they were getting ready to test the system in a race this has to happen-discouraging.

* The way you can tell its an "uptip" foil is by watching the video: only an uptip foil has intrinsic altitude control so that it can maintain altitude w/o constant adjustment.

An open "L" like some of the AC Teams are testing requires constant adjustment-thats the whole reason for using an uptip foil-its much simpler.

** Basic Fire Arrow Foil System- 1) mainfoil(largest) on the daggerboard-adjustable, 2) rudder t-foil-may or may not be adjustable, 3) uptip foil on each ama(one used at a time).

photo by Guilain Grenier

20qclmr.jpg

Note angle of board thru ama:

2ntg3tg.jpg

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • post-30-0-48300900-1476837911_thumb.png

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Doug,

Sadly, you could be right on the money, but I for one stopped reading what you post due to your incessant repitive juvenile references to a toy model test from 2 years ago.

I used to be interested in your comments a few years ago, but you haven't bothered to make any attempt to further prove your beliefs.

When I think of the thousands of words you've written , and due to your writing style/attitude/(insert whatever here) nobody appears to either believes a word you say, or sadly gives a damn.

That's a waste of your life mate. The point of communicating is to share your ideas and beliefs, and hope people are enthused or enlightened by your doing so.

Summary? You're really bad at communicating your point of view, so pleasechange your delivery or give up believing anyone appreciates your effort.

Sorry, back to regular programming.

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Bad luck on Maserati, but this has left me confused because I finally looked closely at the foil configuration of Maserati and was expecting to see the same as the Fire Arrow shown above. It seems that Maserati has rudders on the ama's as well as a central one. They say the rudders on the ama are critical to flight. The Fire Arrow uses a single rudder on the central hull. Isn't that a significant difference. In addition, the Fire Arrow uses a wand on the central main foil to control ride height, while Maserati doesn't and uses manual adjustment so that the crew can set the AoA of the foil, sort of a "non active" system. Finally, I was surprised to see that Maserati don't use "uptip" foils and that the foils on the ama are actually open L style. In the few pictures you can see of the leeward foil, you can see that it is parallel to the surface.

 

Surely the only similarity between Fire Arrow and Maserati is that they both have "main" foils on the central hull and ama's. Those foils work differently while the rudder systems are different.

 

Maserati uses an uptip* foil on the stb ama and plan to on the port ama. A rudder T-foil is a rudder T-foil --she has one on each ama with the "left over" normal (Mod 70) central rudder with no foil. I know that a central rudder t-foil will work better on under 20' versions of the Fire Arrow system but their rudder T-foil on the ama works which is what counts right now. The fact is that Fire Arrow is the first trimaran ever to use an actively controlled main foil. Based on one comment I read I think Maserati's main foil is manually controllable which might be better than a wand on such a big boat.

Keep in mind-its not a foiler w/o a rudder t-foil on this type of configuration.

But Maserati uses the basic Fire Arrow Foil System** for the first time ever on a full size tri. Or should I say used. Just when they were getting ready to test the system in a race this has to happen-discouraging.

* The way you can tell its an "uptip" foil is by watching the video: only an uptip foil has intrinsic altitude control so that it can maintain altitude w/o constant adjustment.

An open "L" like some of the AC Teams are testing requires constant adjustment-thats the whole reason for using an uptip foil-its much simpler.

** Basic Fire Arrow Foil System- 1) mainfoil(largest) on the daggerboard-adjustable, 2) rudder t-foil-may or may not be adjustable, 3) uptip foil on each ama(one used at a time).

photo by Guilain Grenier

20qclmr.jpg

Note angle of board thru ama:

2ntg3tg.jpg

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • post-30-0-48300900-1476837911_thumb.png

 

Believe what you want, but look at photos that show the foil properly rather than what suits your incorrect assumptions

MOD70Maserati-0457-copia.jpg

That is an open L foil and not an uptip one. The angle is more than 90 degrees.

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Believe what you want, but look at photos that show the foil properly rather than what suits your incorrect assumptions

MOD70Maserati-0457-copia.jpg

That is an open L foil and not an uptip one. The angle is more than 90 degrees.

 

 

 

 

.....why let a few annoying facts get in the way of a good mind-fack? :mellow:

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Bad luck on Maserati, but this has left me confused because I finally looked closely at the foil configuration of Maserati and was expecting to see the same as the Fire Arrow shown above. It seems that Maserati has rudders on the ama's as well as a central one. They say the rudders on the ama are critical to flight. The Fire Arrow uses a single rudder on the central hull. Isn't that a significant difference. In addition, the Fire Arrow uses a wand on the central main foil to control ride height, while Maserati doesn't and uses manual adjustment so that the crew can set the AoA of the foil, sort of a "non active" system. Finally, I was surprised to see that Maserati don't use "uptip" foils and that the foils on the ama are actually open L style. In the few pictures you can see of the leeward foil, you can see that it is parallel to the surface.

 

Surely the only similarity between Fire Arrow and Maserati is that they both have "main" foils on the central hull and ama's. Those foils work differently while the rudder systems are different.

 

Maserati uses an uptip* foil on the stb ama and plan to on the port ama. A rudder T-foil is a rudder T-foil --she has one on each ama with the "left over" normal (Mod 70) central rudder with no foil. I know that a central rudder t-foil will work better on under 20' versions of the Fire Arrow system but their rudder T-foil on the ama works which is what counts right now. The fact is that Fire Arrow is the first trimaran ever to use an actively controlled main foil. Based on one comment I read I think Maserati's main foil is manually controllable which might be better than a wand on such a big boat.

Keep in mind-its not a foiler w/o a rudder t-foil on this type of configuration.

But Maserati uses the basic Fire Arrow Foil System** for the first time ever on a full size tri. Or should I say used. Just when they were getting ready to test the system in a race this has to happen-discouraging.

* The way you can tell its an "uptip" foil is by watching the video: only an uptip foil has intrinsic altitude control so that it can maintain altitude w/o constant adjustment.

An open "L" like some of the AC Teams are testing requires constant adjustment-thats the whole reason for using an uptip foil-its much simpler.

** Basic Fire Arrow Foil System- 1) mainfoil(largest) on the daggerboard-adjustable, 2) rudder t-foil-may or may not be adjustable, 3) uptip foil on each ama(one used at a time).

photo by Guilain Grenier

20qclmr.jpg

Note angle of board thru ama:

2ntg3tg.jpg

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • post-30-0-48300900-1476837911_thumb.png

 

Believe what you want, but look at photos that show the foil properly rather than what suits your incorrect assumptions

MOD70Maserati-0457-copia.jpg

That is an open L foil and not an uptip one. The angle is more than 90 degrees.

 

 

You apparently don't understand: its how it meets the water that counts. Look at the trunk angle the way its installed in the ama-a "normal" uptip foil would have the tip way too high. The tip is clearly higher than the radius of the foil when it is deployed and that's what counts. And again: an open "L" foil (deployed as such) would not have the intrinsic altitude control that is so clearly demonstrated in the video.

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Latest Facebook video from Sodebo has a C board with a tip installed on on the ama foil:

https://www.facebook.com/thomas.coville.9/posts/10210402549889695

 

Interesting thanks. Those are conditions that when Maserati has her main foil the main hull would be clear much of the time-same with the ama foil with its intrinsic altitude control. Sodebo's ama foil looks like a basic "C" foil which probably wouldn't be able to maintain a steady flight height. Sodebo does have ama T-foils, though.

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Uh? No.

Look at the sea state in the Sodebo Video.

Sodebo is significantly longer (101ft) than a MOD 70

 

Stop seeing what you want to see, and ignoring what doesn't fit your biased opinions, and then making worthless supposition and theories.

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Uh? No.

Look at the sea state in the Sodebo Video.

Sodebo is significantly longer (101ft) than a MOD 70

 

Stop seeing what you want to see, and ignoring what doesn't fit your biased opinions, and then making worthless supposition and theories.

 

Nonsense......

This is what Maserati has to say about their new configuration and rough conditions:

 

First* trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability on the horizontal loading-bearing surface of her centerboard, Maserati Multi70 brilliantly puts into practice Guillaume Vernier and his Team’s idea of flying on three resting points using a load-bearing centerboard, L-foil and a rudder instead of the two rudders and single foil adopted on America’s Cup cats.

Giovanni Soldini and his Team are engaged in a new challenge as they endeavour to turn Maserati Multi70 into the first ocean-going flying trimaran. An ambitious project that spans not just Guillaume Vernier’s excellent work (he worked on the modifications to her appendages) but also over 4.000 nautical miles of sailing clocked up by the Team this summer.

The straight central daggerboard plays a revolutionary role in this new flying trim as the horizontal load bearing surface at its end generates lift, raising the boat out of the water. “When Maserati Multi70 rises up on her lateral foil and rudder, the daggerboard wing acts as a third resting point – the central and largest one”.

Tests in wind of 40 knots have demonstrated that Maserati Multi70 is now much more stabilized and able to fly in conditions unthinkable before. Safely tackling also big seas.

 

 

* Wrong-the Fire Arrow was the first trimaran in the world to fly on a daggerboard foil in combo with uptip foils on each ama.

__________________

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When you write such things as:

"which probably wouldn't" and "much more stabilized "

 

the claims are so vague and poorly defined to be nothing more than casual thoughts rather than evidential based commentary.

You have done this elsewhere talking about tip lengths and wanting to be fast everywhere. Just rambling on about the stuff of magic silver bullets rather than the hard findings that everyone else deals with. If you are optimised for light airs then you will not be optimised for heavy airs and vice versa.

 

I don't set the physical constraints we are faced - they just are constraints. So a 100ft boat will behave differently from a 70ft one.

Wave patterns in one video of upwind sailing where the crests are just over a boat length apart cannot be compared to a video solely of downwind sailing where sea state is benign for the windspeed.

 

Play the Ball - Not the Man.

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It's not what I wrote-it's what Maserati wrote. I guess they know a whole lot more about their revolutionary tri configuration than you can possibly understand.......

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DL Quote:
"Interesting thanks. Those are conditions that when Maserati has her main foil the main hull would be clear much of the time-same with the ama foil with its intrinsic altitude control. Sodebo's ama foil looks like a basic "C" foil which probably wouldn't be able to maintain a steady flight height. Sodebo does have ama T-foils, though."

Then you highlight with Bold Red Ink (quelle surprise):
"Tests in wind of 40 knots have demonstrated that Maserati Multi70 is now much more stabilized and able to fly in conditions unthinkable before."
to emphasise your biased cherry picking approach.

So you didn't write this then.
Yeah, whatever..... It's there, of your hand. Deny all you like. You are the armchair admiral with no true understanding or direct experience of foiling behaviour.

 

Standing on the shore two years ago watching a toy lurch around does not qualify you to commentate with any authority.

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I´ve reached the conclusion DL is paid by the site to keep up with the hits. Otherwise, I can't understand why he is allowed to pollute every thread

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It's not what I wrote-it's what Maserati wrote. I guess they know a whole lot more about their revolutionary tri configuration than I can possibly understand.......

 

Fixed

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Phaedo botched the middle sea course but the tracker seems to show Phaedo with better boat speed than Maserati on all points of sail. Perhaps a minor setback in the offshore foiling revolution?

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Phaedo botched the middle sea course but the tracker seems to show Phaedo with better boat speed than Maserati on all points of sail. Perhaps a minor setback in the offshore foiling revolution?

 

 

The "minor setback" was on the 16th when Maserati was on her way to the start and collided at 30 knots with an underwater object ripping out the stb rudder T-foil.

They then had to remove the lifting foils because they won't work w/o a t-foil. So they sailed this race as a "conventional" MOD 70 seahugger. And because they paid attention they whupped Phaedo's ass, ah , so to speak. Congrads to Team Maserati!

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Well that sort of explains it. The report on the Middle Sea Race site claims they sailed with non-foiling boards on the starboard side. When on stbd they should have had the benefit of foils. If you look at the tracker, even on stbd, Phaedo looked faster. Foiling in flat water is a huge win. We'll see if they can make it pay when offshore.

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Well that sort of explains it. The report on the Middle Sea Race site claims they sailed with non-foiling boards on the starboard side. When on stbd they should have had the benefit of foils. If you look at the tracker, even on stbd, Phaedo looked faster. After Phaedo rounded the correct mark, they were gaining big time on port. Foiling in flat water is a huge win. We'll see if they can make it pay when offshore.

 

Prior to the collision they had a "c" foil on the port side and a foil that acted like an uptip foil on the stb side. The "C" foil doesn't allow steady foiling and on the stb side they reverted to a c and "normal" rudder so no foiling in either case. On either tack they could have benefited from "foil assist" reducing the ama wetted surface like a standard MOD 70 but they had no special advantage. My bet is if they'd had the Fire Arrow Foil System they'd have cleaned up even without Phaedo's "wrong way" help.

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My bet is the better sailors-in this case the highly experienced pros on Phaedo, despite their off day and wrong mark choice, will still win. They know the MOD70 better than a first born child and can make it perform to 100% of its polars near 100% of the time in the smaller <24 hour races. The Maserati configuration is virtually untested in the open ocean, the foil breakage issue that continues to plague the full foiling boats (mono and multihulls) in our sadly polluted oceans makes it a difficult choice for full on racing, and the guys are still learning the boat. My bet is Phaedo would still have beat them had they gone around the course correctly, with Maserati in the Maseratie developed foiling configuration, unless the conditions were perfect to allow steady foiling along most of the race track and the upwind drag penalty for the foils sufficiently low.

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We'll see. I heard something-I don't remember where about Phaedo adding foils?? One major thing is to develop some kind of forward scanning sonar to spot objects just below the surface. One company already has a system for spotting submerged containers but I'm not sure it will work at higher speeds. It's either do that or stop foiling in the ocean. Once a system like that is available the boats that fly- particularly those using a version of the Fire Arrow Foil System- will win every time against non foilers.

Another design question about Maserati is whether or not they can use downforce on the main foil-if so they would be able to carry more sail longer than a conventional tri or foil assist tri. And the wetted surface penalty in light air could be erased with the greater SA.

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The bigger the boat, the smaller the relative cost of having a spotter drone fly ahead of it looking for debris and growlers, and drone technology is improving all the time. Foilers will hold all the big records before long.

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I agree there will come a time when foilers will hold records. But David, how can you manage a drone at night in southern ocean. With all respect you're begining to sound like Dougie

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I agree there will come a time when foilers will hold records. But David, how can you manage a drone at night in southern ocean. With all respect you're begining to sound like Dougie

 

Nights are short in the southern ocean when it's the summer there, but night isn't such a big issue for drones in any case. You can buy model planes today and fly them over ten miles away from you while receiving POV (point of view) video from them all the time live, and with night vision too if you want it. Battery powered ones can stay up for an hour, but there's no reason why they shouldn't use combustible fuel and stay up for much longer. It isn't hard to imagine how these will evolve, and how they could land and take off from a yacht even in the worst of conditions, all under the control of A.I. (which can give them the lightning-fast reactions needed for that). The progress of development with these things is astonishing, and it will only take a fraction of the rate of development over the next decade as there's been over the last decade to produce devices capable of doing exactly what I suggested.

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Not only did Maserati win the Middle Sea Race, she set a new course record-and with a jury rigged stb rudder.....

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I agree there will come a time when foilers will hold records. But David, how can you manage a drone at night in southern ocean. With all respect you're begining to sound like Dougie

 

Nights are short in the southern ocean when it's the summer there, but night isn't such a big issue for drones in any case. You can buy model planes today and fly them over ten miles away from you while receiving POV (point of view) video from them all the time live, and with night vision too if you want it. Battery powered ones can stay up for an hour, but there's no reason why they shouldn't use combustible fuel and stay up for much longer. It isn't hard to imagine how these will evolve, and how they could land and take off from a yacht even in the worst of conditions, all under the control of A.I. (which can give them the lightning-fast reactions needed for that). The progress of development with these things is astonishing, and it will only take a fraction of the rate of development over the next decade as there's been over the last decade to produce devices capable of doing exactly what I suggested.

 

Well , I'm not sure to make it to the next decade

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We'll see. I heard something-I don't remember where about Phaedo adding foils?? One major thing is to develop some kind of forward scanning sonar to spot objects just below the surface. One company already has a system for spotting submerged containers but I'm not sure it will work at higher speeds. It's either do that or stop foiling in the ocean. Once a system like that is available the boats that fly- particularly those using a version of the Fire Arrow Foil System- will win every time against non foilers.

Another design question about Maserati is whether or not they can use downforce on the main foil-if so they would be able to carry more sail longer than a conventional tri or foil assist tri. And the wetted surface penalty in light air could be erased with the greater SA.

 

The answer is yes but very carefully.

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We'll see. I heard something-I don't remember where about Phaedo adding foils?? One major thing is to develop some kind of forward scanning sonar to spot objects just below the surface. One company already has a system for spotting submerged containers but I'm not sure it will work at higher speeds. It's either do that or stop foiling in the ocean. Once a system like that is available the boats that fly- particularly those using a version of the Fire Arrow Foil System- will win every time against non foilers.

Another design question about Maserati is whether or not they can use downforce on the main foil-if so they would be able to carry more sail longer than a conventional tri or foil assist tri. And the wetted surface penalty in light air could be erased with the greater SA.

 

The answer is yes but very carefully.

 

Its a whole new level of spam.

 

He asks and answers his own questions since no one else will talk to him or believe.

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My bet is the better sailors-in this case the highly experienced pros on Phaedo, despite their off day and wrong mark choice, will still win. They know the MOD70 better than a first born child and can make it perform to 100% of its polars near 100% of the time in the smaller <24 hour races. The Maserati configuration is virtually untested in the open ocean, the foil breakage issue that continues to plague the full foiling boats (mono and multihulls) in our sadly polluted oceans makes it a difficult choice for full on racing, and the guys are still learning the boat. My bet is Phaedo would still have beat them had they gone around the course correctly, with Maserati in the Maseratie developed foiling configuration, unless the conditions were perfect to allow steady foiling along most of the race track and the upwind drag penalty for the foils sufficiently low.

 

Sam, it was tested in 4000 miles of open ocean sailing this summer. Gio Soldini estimated they would have won by a large margin based on the conditions of this race without the generous help from Phaedo had they been able to use the new foil system(identical to the Fire Arrow Foil System in function).

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We'll see. I heard something-I don't remember where about Phaedo adding foils?? One major thing is to develop some kind of forward scanning sonar to spot objects just below the surface. One company already has a system for spotting submerged containers but I'm not sure it will work at higher speeds. It's either do that or stop foiling in the ocean. Once a system like that is available the boats that fly- particularly those using a version of the Fire Arrow Foil System- will win every time against non foilers.

Another design question about Maserati is whether or not they can use downforce on the main foil-if so they would be able to carry more sail longer than a conventional tri or foil assist tri. And the wetted surface penalty in light air could be erased with the greater SA.

 

The answer is yes but very carefully.

 

Its a whole new level of spam.

 

He asks and answers his own questions since no one else will talk to him or believe.

 

 

But it does illustrate that his use of aggressive red is not intended to be shouty or to disrespect anyone - it's simply a way of indictating what his comments are referring to (with forum software that isn't quote friendly). I'd prefer blue to red though.

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We'll see. I heard something-I don't remember where about Phaedo adding foils?? One major thing is to develop some kind of forward scanning sonar to spot objects just below the surface. One company already has a system for spotting submerged containers but I'm not sure it will work at higher speeds. It's either do that or stop foiling in the ocean. Once a system like that is available the boats that fly- particularly those using a version of the Fire Arrow Foil System- will win every time against non foilers.

Another design question about Maserati is whether or not they can use downforce on the main foil-if so they would be able to carry more sail longer than a conventional tri or foil assist tri. And the wetted surface penalty in light air could be erased with the greater SA.

 

The answer is yes but very carefully.

Its a whole new level of spam.

 

He asks and answers his own questions since no one else will talk to him or believe.

But it does illustrate that his use of aggressive red is not intended to be shouty or to disrespect anyone - it's simply a way of indictating what his comments are referring to (with forum software that isn't quote friendly). I'd prefer blue to red though.

I'm sure if you search around here, you'll find lots of examples of Doug's multi coloured screaming in various fonts as well.

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Maserati will use an "L" foil that, because of the angle of its installation, works exactly like an uptip foil with intrinsic altitude control. That in combination with a large main foil on the daggerboard and a rudder T-foil exactly matches the Fire Arrow Foil System in function and is a major first for a full size trimaran. Never before in history!!!

 

Photo by Gulain Grenier--

 

2usd3z7.jpg

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Maserati was more than an hour slower the existing course record, which is still owned by a fucking MONOHULL (and an old one, at that). Check your fucking facts, lest you look like a liar or an idiot.

 

 

 

 

Not only did Maserati win the Middle Sea Race, she set a new course record-and with a jury rigged stb rudder.....

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And you should(fucking) know what you're( fucking) talking about before you (fucking) say (fucking) anything:

 

http://www.rolexmiddlesearace.com/news/?ID=442

 

 

Giovanni Soldini's MOD70 Maserati, crossed the finish line of the 2016 Rolex Middle Sea Race at the Royal Malta Yacht Club to take Multihull Line Honours at 14.00.01 CET on Monday 24th October in an elapsed time of 2 days 01 hours 25 minutes and 01 seconds. In doing so, Maserati has also set a new multihull race record for the Rolex Middle Sea Race.

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I probably should have said "multihull (fucking) course record".

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I probably should have said "multihull (fucking) course record".

I think that is an admission that you were wrong again. I am pleased to see you can still get excited by a minor, non foiling race result.

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I think will continue to use the lifting main foil which has adjustable AOI including the capability to develop downforce.

 

Please can you provide a link to where they say they have adjustment to the main foil and that they change the AOI. Thanks

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See post 39 and post 143 of this thread. I also received additional info from Guillaume Verdier who came up with the idea of using this system on Maserati. He worked with VPLP to design and engineer a number of dali foils being used in the upcoming Vendee.

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corrected


To get ready for the transatlantic race ,Maserati will have the port "L"* foil installed that will allow them to foil on stb tack only. They aren't going to install a new rudder T foil on the stb ama before that race so they can't use the stb "L" foil*. I think they will continue to use the lifting main foil which has adjustable AOI including the capability to develop downforce. http://maserati.sold...then-off-again/



* "L" foil works like an uptip foil when immersed due to the angle of the ama trunk.



Maserati on port tack-she will only be able to foil on stb tack for the transatlantic race:



2ntg3tg.jpg


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Doug don't you think it's time to put down the keyboard and finish your prototype and get some testing miles (yards) on it??

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Well, Maserati has saved us a lot of time by proving that the Fire Arrow Foil System can work on any size tri. Guillaume Verdier came up with the Maserati system and it is pure coincidence that it is identical to the basic Fire Arrow System including being able to use downforce on the main foil. They put 4000 miles on it this summer proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that it will work on any tri from 5'LOA to 70'. So we're likely done with model testing-its time to build a small fullsize prototype. The System has extraordinary potential on small tri's particularly oversquare sport tri's designed for performance.

 

Concept model of a 12' LOA X 17' wide tri using the basic Fire Arrow System(uptip foils not shown)---

(pictures by Doug Lord)

 

15ppi02.jpg

Fire Arrow Test Model, July 24, 2014, 5mph wind :
sxdp20.jpg

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I think will continue to use the lifting main foil which has adjustable AOI including the capability to develop downforce.

 

Please can you provide a link to where they say they have adjustment to the main foil and that they change the AOI. Thanks

 

 

 

See post 39 and post 143 of this thread. I also received additional info from Guillaume Verdier who came up with the idea of using this system on Maserati. He worked with VPLP to design and engineer a number of dali foils being used in the upcoming Vendee.

 

 

Linking to your own posts is not "where they say", it does not answer the question you were asked. What were you told in the "additional info" that leads you to believe they can create downforce with the main foil?

 

Note that "downforce" means a force that creates a downward acceleration greater than gravity, not just less lift (since zero lift gives a downward acceleration of 1g). Creating downforce with the main foil on such a fast, large boat is a very dangerous thing to do so it would be interesting to see if they allow it and whether they can actually use it.

 

Using downforce on the main foil also blows away your "UptiP" theory for the float foil, as it totally disconnects any leeway coupling that you reckon is essential for height control.

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How about posting, LoBS, yet again, and again yet again, ad nauseum and again on and on, that image of that ridiculous toy of yours.

With all that repetition one does, just a little, have a concern for your imbalance.

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I think they will continue to use the lifting main foil which has adjustable AOI including the capability to develop downforce.

 

Please can you provide a link to where they say they have adjustment to the main foil and that they change the AOI. Thanks

 

 

 

See post 39 and post 143 of this thread. I also received additional info from Guillaume Verdier who came up with the idea of using this system on Maserati. He worked with VPLP to design and engineer a number of dali foils being used in the upcoming Vendee.

 

 

Linking to your own posts is not "where they say", it does not answer the question you were asked. What were you told in the "additional info" that leads you to believe they can create downforce with the main foil?

 

Note that "downforce" means a force that creates a downward acceleration greater than gravity, not just less lift (since zero lift gives a downward acceleration of 1g). Creating downforce with the main foil on such a fast, large boat is a very dangerous thing to do so it would be interesting to see if they allow it and whether they can actually use it.

 

Using downforce on the main foil also blows away your "UptiP" theory for the float foil, as it totally disconnects any leeway coupling that you reckon is essential for height control.

 

 

Downforce can reduce total leeway* but in the conditions it is used there is still leeway. A boat that uses it must be designed for it. I discussed the Maserati system with Guillaume Verdier and he answered all my questions. The fact is that the main foil has an adjustable AOI and that they can use downforce if required-- very carefully.

* depending on whether or not the boat is heeled. If the boat is not heeled there is no reduction in leeway. The Fire Arrow is designed to sail at a 10 degree angle of heel.

 

 

 

52gv90.jpg

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Gio Soldini explains the "Manta" foil-- and that the AOI of the foil is adjustable-just like the Fire Arrow Foil System. In a while they'll have the stb rudder foil fixed and be able to add the stb "L" foil(that works like an uptip foil when immersed) and the boat will be able to foil on either tack not just on stb as now.

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Their next ocean race: Gear, sails, appendages – everything has been checked and rechecked aboard Maserati Multi70 for the first ocean race of the 2016/17 season. The now-imminent RORC Transatlantic Race casts off on Saturday, November 26 from Lanzarote in the Canary Islands.

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But Doug, they didn't credit you with this game changing innovation, why not?

 

Perhaps because the design of the foil under the main hull is the same type as anyone else would put there, and there's no surprise that it's adjustable so that drag and lift can be varied for different wind strengths, though it seems unlikely that they'd use it to generate downforce. The choice for the ama foils is less limited, but there are still only a few options, and while it isn't clear that the uptip design is the best one (because it generates some lift to leeward), it's certainly going to be one of the ones anyone wanting to fly a tri would take a look at. This means that anyone flying a tri is going to end up with a design with great similarity to Doug's whether they were influenced by him or not, although I'd have expected them to try something different if they were aware of Fire Arrow so as to avoid looking as if they'd copied any ideas from it. But it does look as if Doug was the first to get a boat/model flying on this configuration, and that's a small victory of a kind for him (which everyone fair has already recognised). The real reward though will only come when he gets Wolf built, and it's good to see signs that he's working hard on the design.

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Thanks, SK. Gitana used uptip foils on what is now Maserati and said at the time they would use them on a bigger boat. Didn't see any mention of a foil on the daggerboard on the big boat? So ,apparently, the big boat will have a "traditional" foiling configuration but since Guillaume Verdier is involved I wouldn't be surprised to see them use a daggerboard foil at some point.

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See here for the story of Maserati flying 33-36 knots at night in the RORC Transatlantic Race: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=178639

 

Contrary to what is reported in catsailingnews.com ,Maserati is configured with her Fire Arrow type foil system designed by Guillaume Verdier, except that she can only fly on stb tack. She is using the adjustable AOI "Manta" main foil along with an "L" foil in the port ama(installed at an angle that allows it to work like an uptip foil).

She has the port rudder T foil as well.

 

Story in catsailingnews.com :

 

"MOD70s Phaedo 3 and Maserati going for the blue ribbon at the RORC Transat 2016. Maserati seems to be usgin standard MOD70 foil conf. Pity as it was a good chance to see the performance gap between two identical platforms but with two diff modes and foil setups."

Douggie - at some point somebody is going to stuff your FiReArRoW up your ass to get you to shut up. Your never-ending blabbering is just too much. Go fucking sailing and show us that you can actually build and sail your fantasy/wet dream.

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See here for the story of Maserati flying 33-36 knots at night in the RORC Transatlantic Race: http://forums.sailin...howtopic=178639


Top speed 38 knots so far.




They are using the same basic foil configuration as does the Fire Arrow except for now they can only foil on stb tack. That will be corrected later this year.


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Douggie - at some point somebody is going to stuff your FiReArRoW up your ass to get you to shut up. Your never-ending blabbering is just too much.

 

 

Ah give him a break. He has to be pretty bummed that Maserati specifically said they are using L foils and not his uPtIp foils. And then to see them get crushed so badly by Phaedo3. And then to have to endlessly post to himself on the RORC thread because nobody will play along... Its got to be upsetting.

 

Why wont they bow damn it!! It my revolution in color and caps!!

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Maserati specifically said they are using L foils .......

 

 

"L" foils that work like uptip foils when they're in the water!

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Just L foils. So says the Maserati video. Sorry to say they make zero, zilch, nada, nothing, no reference to uptip foils what so ever. Not that this is surprising.

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You do know that an "L" foil (that is not used as an uptip foil) requires an altitude control system , don't you? Of course you don't or you wouldn't be talking such bs.

The "L" foil used on Maserati is installed at such an angle that when it is immersed it works like an uptip foil. That's necessary to provide altitude control for the ama.

 

 

Photo by Guilain Grenier:

 

2usd3z7.jpg

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Sorry but still no. TNZ and Melvin came up with the idea of boards with up-tips for stabilization and the use of L foils in this manner is a continuation of that. It has nothing to do with your crazy caps and colors and endless attempts to claim have invented something that clearly nobody else thinks you did. But hey, you could always go sue Melvin or build more than a bathtub toy and prove your point rather than wrecking every thread with the word foil or Maserati in it.

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Sorry but still no. TNZ and Melvin came up with the idea of boards with up-tips for stabilization and the use of L foils in this manner is a continuation of that. It has nothing to do with your crazy caps and colors and endless attempts to claim have invented something that clearly nobody else thinks you did. But hey, you could always go sue Melvin or build more than a bathtub toy and prove your point rather than wrecking every thread with the word foil or Maserati in it.

 

Right and wrong: TNZ with Melvin invented uptip foils but the invention was a single foil that was capable of being designed to control a boats flight altitude with no moving parts. It wasn't "for stabilization" at all-it was for altitude control. However, you could say that the foil can make the boat heave stable. Thats what makes it so attractive for the ama foil on a trimaran-it's simple and when designed carefully doesn't require constant adjustment.

Maserati's ama foil is an "L" foil installed at an angle so that when it is immersed it works like an uptip foil. It was a cost effective way for them to use the existing Mod 70 configuration trunk with no changes.

------

The only thing I "invented" was the Fire Arrow Foil System which, coincidentally, turns out to be virtually identical to the Maserati system. I first conceived of the system over 6 years ago and first flew the Test Model using the system two years ago. The Fire Arrow was the first trimaran of any size to fly with a wand controlled daggerboard T-foil coupled with an UptiP foil on each ama(one used at a time) and a single rudder T-foil. From day one I published every detail of the Fire Arrow Foil System in one of the longest threads on boatdesign.net for the purpose of allowing anyone that wanted to,to use the technology. I've had the great pleasure of discussing the Fire Arrow with the designer of the Maserati system who came up with a system nearly identical to the Fire Arrow Foil System completely independently and was the first to use it on a full size trimaran. His work and the work of Team Maserati has saved us a lot of testing time since the systems are virtually identical and the Maserati system has been successfully tested in over 5000 miles of ocean sailing.

Because of this, the next step for the Fire Arrow is a fullsize 14' LOA X 16' Beam test boat.

  • Downvote 1

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.

 

 

 

...think we've heard this before somewhere :mellow: ................

 

 

The only thing I "invented" was the Fire Arrow Foil System which, coincidentally, turns out to be virtually identical to the Maserati system. I first conceived of the system over 6 years ago and first flew the Test Model using the system two years ago. The Fire Arrow was the first trimaran of any size to fly with a wand controlled daggerboard T-foil coupled with an UptiP foil on each ama(one used at a time) and a single rudder T-foil. blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

/

/

/

3352482019_14b9b028f8_o.gif

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Must be disheartening to see your radically designed foiling tri get wiped off the floor by the mostly stock mod 70..shows that in the end it comes down to crew work and skill..

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Not at all. Phaedo led most of the way in the Malta Race and then screwed up and Maserati won setting a new multihull record in the process. In that race and this race Maserati is severely handicapped in that they can only foil on stb. tack due to the collision with a ufo on the way to Malta. The Transat is a long way from over and tonight, last time I checked, Maserati is going twice as fast as Phaedo.

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You mean half as fast (13 knots for Maserati vs 26 knots for Phaedo3), 300 miles behind on the same course and favored starboard tack (presently). Not that it matters. And firearrow has about as much in common with Maserati as a Toyota Previa minivan has with a Maserati MC12... both mid engine vehicles in case you are wondering.

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Maserati is currently sailing upwind on stb in 11knots and needs 15 to foil. The basic foil system configuration and the principles behind it are identical for Fire Arrow and Maserati except that Maserati is temporarily limited to foiling on stb tack.

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Maserati is currently sailing upwind on stb in 11knots and needs 15 to foil. The basic foil system configuration and the principles behind it are identical for Fire Arrow and Maserati except that Maserati is temporarily limited to foiling on stb tack, and of course Fire Arrow hasn't made more than 5 seconds of airtime in all the years I've had it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

fify :mellow:

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Maserati is currently sailing upwind on stb in 11knots and needs 15 to foil. The basic foil system configuration and the principles behind it are identical for Fire Arrow and Maserati except that Maserati is temporarily limited to foiling on stb tack, and of course Fire Arrow hasn't made more than 5 seconds of airtime in all the years I've had it.

 

You haven't got a clue. That is grossly unfair and totally wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is video that clearly shows Fire Arrow foiling for close to 15 seconds. That is 3 times longer than you suggest. You fail to understand how 15 seconds of flight is irrefutable proof that the foil combination works. I bet you also believe that the Fire Arrow has a different foil configuration to Maserati, because one has L foils, the other has uptips, one has a T foil that is adjusted for conditions while the other has a wand and, finally, one has its rudder foils on the amas and the other has it on the main hull. You clearly have no idea, because those differences are irrelevant. How do I know that? Because Doug told us on many occasions.