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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

Maserati on Foils

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.

 

...funny, yer look at the photo above, it's likely those tips don't do any 'up' at all.

 

Me's thinking horizontal.

 

 

It's all a matter of perspective, literally. ;-)

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.

 

...funny, yer look at the photo above, it's likely those tips don't do any 'up' at all.

 

Me's thinking horizontal.

 

 

It's all a matter of perspective, literally. ;-)

 

 

No,its not-its a matter of ama altitude control.

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this boat has a long way to go doug - once they sort out the foiling issues, (its still not fully stable if you havnt noticed), at least not in a seaway anyway, it might become quicker than anything else out there. However, for now, i think the middle sea race and the transat have both demonstrated that phaedo is a quicker boat - maserati would not have won the middle sea race if phaedo didnt make that mistake. The transat race shows phaedo quicker all round also - despite that little catch up zone when phaedo was in light winds. Phaedo looks like they will win this race with at least a 500NM margin, tho significantly due to better routing choices...

 

Im all for the foils mate - but you really should tone it down a bit, if for nothing else but your own credibility...

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Groper, I don't think you can draw those conclusions about Maserati. She has been sailing with HALF her foiling configuration missing since the collision before Malta!! That is a serious handicap and drastically affects her performance.

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http://www.travacedesign.com

 

Hello Foil People Nice work Canada !

 

I'm the new kid.

 

I will bring only video tape to the forum......still learning to fly in 3 AXIS control...... under propeller power first - before I learn to sail.......my sailing logbook includes: Semi pro Windsurfer, Liveaboard, Scow racer, Kiteboarding on water and snow, Blue water Tri racing in the 24-31 size and I'm a Pilot

 

 

https://vimeo.com/42547598

 

https://vimeo.com/user11342962

 

 

I work here as Principal Designer

http://epicaircraft.com

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From Maserati today:

 

Maserati Multi70 in now into day seven of racing and is expected to make landfall at Grenada between tomorrow and Sunday morning. The shore teams and organizers are already in situ preparing to welcome the two trimarans.
Phaedo3 is leading the RORC Transatlantic Race fleet, 379 miles ahead of Maserati Multi70 at 8.00 GMT at with time the Italian trimaran was still 730 miles off Grenada. As Soldini explained it will be difficult to bridge the gap in the coming hours because both MOD 70 are sailing in the same wind conditions at an average speed of 22 knots.
Aboard the team is taking stock of the race and the ocean-going experience. As Giovanni Soldini commented this morning: «Conditions have been fantastic over the last 24 hours: we managed to find just the right adjustments to fly downwind and the results are surprising. We’re able to get amazing angles. Maserati Multi70 takes off and then stabilises at 140° to the real wind. She starts to accelerates resting only on her L-foil, the weight-bearing surface of the T-foil rudder and the wing we have on the centerboard. It’s completely unprecedented: we’re able to bear away at 10° more and make two knots more with the L-foil. We’re definitely on the right path! This ocean has given us a super experience. We’re beginning to feel less like we’re experimenting and more at ease in getting the most from the appendages that make Maserati Multi70 a flying trimaran!»

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Groper, I don't think you can draw those conclusions about Maserati. She has been sailing with HALF her foiling configuration missing since the collision before Malta!! That is a serious handicap and drastically affects her performance.

 

well, afaik phaedo is sailing with their full foiling configuration missing (as they have NO foiling configuration), and is still in front of maseratti by a couple hundreds of nm.

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Congratulations to Phaedo!

Maserati is sailing a revolutionary new trimaran foil configuration for the first time on a fullsize tri in the history of mankind. When it is crippled as it is, the drag of the main foil is still there when on the non foiling tack. They have had some spectacular speed runs on this trip that have helped them to better understand the system. There's always the chance Phaedo will round the wrong island like they did in the last race but I hope not-they deserve this win. And that will make them 1up with Maserati. They should have the complete foil system sometime after April this year.

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Congratulations to Phaedo!

Maserati is sailing a revolutionary new trimaran foil configuration for the first time on a fullsize tri in the history of mankind. When it is crippled as it is, the drag of the main foil is still there when on the non foiling tack. They have had some spectacular speed runs on this trip that have helped them to better understand the system. There's always the chance Phaedo will round the wrong island like they did in the last race but I hope not-they deserve this win. And that will make them 1up with Maserati. They should have the complete foil system sometime after April this year.

 

Thanks for that I was wondering why Phaedo was so much faster than Maserati.?

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It's not just the main foil but the port ama "L" foil and the rudder t-foil both still in the water in non foiling conditions. I'm sure when they get the foil system dialed in they will be able to carry more sail than the standard Mod70 config that they have now to make up for light air foil drag. In this race and the Malta race they could only foil on stb tack-that will change later this year.

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Posted Today, 06:29 AM by David Busch

 

http://www.travacedesign.com

Hello Foil People Nice work Canada !

I'm the new kid.

I will bring only video tape to the forum......still learning to fly in 3 AXIS control...... under propeller power first - before I learn to sail.......my sailing logbook includes: Semi pro Windsurfer, Liveaboard, Scow racer, Kiteboarding on water and snow, Blue water Tri racing in the 24-31 size and I'm a Pilot

https://vimeo.com/user11342962

I work here as Principal Designer

http://epicaircraft.com

Welcome to Sailing Anarchy, David. Your foiling experiments look like they might be very interesting, but they won't get noticed properly buried in the middle of this thread on Maserati.

 

Why don't you start a new thread?

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From Maserati: http://maserati.soldini.it/maserati-multi70-sails-into-grenada/

 

 

Giovanni Soldini and team complete RORC Transatlantic Race dash in 7 days, 8 hours, 44 minutes and 23 seconds.
Maserati Multi70 sailed across the finish-line of the third RORC Transatlantic Race at precisely 20h 54’ 23” GMT (16.54 local time), just off Camper & Nicholsons’ Port Louis Marina on the island of Grenada, completing her first ocean race in a time of 7 days, 8 hours, 44 minutes and 23 seconds.
After casting off from Lanzarote at 12.10 GMT on November 26, Giovanni Soldini and the Maserati Multi70 team opted to skirt the island of La Palma to the north on their first night at sea. This choice impacted the rest of their race and allowed Phaedo3, which rounded the island to the south, to take what proved to be an unassailable lead.
Just after jumping ashore, Giovanni Soldini had this to say about the experience: «It was a fantastic race. We’re delighted to have arrived into Grenada with the boat in excellent shape. We would have liked to compete up close with Phaedo3, but on the first night out, we made different route choices. Passing Las Palmas on the windward side seemed the less risky choice to us, but it turned out we were wrong as it took us into a zone with less wind. When we received our American friends’ position the following morning, we were 100 miles behind.
But overall it was a positive experience: we are very happy with everything we learned about flying using the L-foil in the open ocean. We’ve found a way to use it both when there’ s too much wind and wave, and in other more changeable conditions when it is possible to fly».
Giovanni Soldini was flanked aboard Maserati Multi70 in the RORC Transatlantic Race by a team comprising Guido Broggi, Jean-Baptiste Le Vaillant, Carlos Hernandez, Oliver Herrera, François Robert and Francesco Malingri.

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.

 

...funny, yer look at the photo above, it's likely those tips don't do any 'up' at all.

 

Me's thinking horizontal.

 

 

It's all a matter of perspective, literally. ;-)

 

 

No,its not-its a matter of ama altitude control.

 

 

 

WTF? Does you myopia know no bounds?

 

Please see double entendre, where the intended meanings of the above statement are utterly family friendly.

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As far as I know the boat won't be ready to fully foil until around April. The 600 is in February 2017.

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Good video from the RORC race. Early on she flies the main hull high enough to see the "Manta" foil(foil on daggerboard like Fire Arrow) :

 

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I thought the idea of the manta foil was not to show itself, the only foiling I can see in the video is an accidental overpower which overcome the Ama foils and lifted the centre foil out in true big Tri fashion and then a few seconds where the boat tries to come completely out of the water in a very uncontrolled manner and then crashes back in. Neither period of time would win any races.

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They were experimenting with the Manta foil- and its hydraulic control system- the whole race and in Malta. They had a collision with a UFO on the way to Malta and that screwed up the stb foils so they could only foil on stb tack but they still managed to win Malta.

 

Before the collision they could only foil on port tack but were having the port foil built:

 

2ntg3tg.jpg

Dude - the only reason they won the middle sea was due to the leading boat having a navigational brain fart - Maserati was thoroughly outpaced by a "traditional" tri

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"Dude"-no excuses-Maserati WON Malta! Even with half their foiling system missing!

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"Dude"-no excuses-Maserati WON Malta! Even with half their foiling system missing!

Whatever helps the retarded kid sleep at night is fine with me. Your mom must be so proud.

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"Dude"-no excuses-Maserati WON Malta! Even with half their foiling system missing!

Do you have any interest in being objective? It doesn't seem so. As pointed out, the result isn't relevant. What was relevant was the difference in performance between the boats and in speed terms, Maserati was outclassed. Or are you trying to tell us that their half foil system was responsible for the other boat's navigational cock up?

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"Dude"-no excuses-Maserati WON Malta! Even with half their foiling system missing!

Yes Maserati won the middle sea - Maserati was slower than a traditional tri. Maserati only won because Brian and co fucked the dog with a navigational error. Now piss off back to your mom's basement

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Maserati will compete in the RORC Carribean 600 still without her stb ama foil and rudder T-foil. Those foils should be added by the time she races the Transpac later this year. So for the 600 she'll be unable to foil on port tack and able to foil on stb.

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Maserati will compete in the RORC Carribean 600 still without her stb ama foil and rudder T-foil. Those foils should be added by the time she races the Transpac later this year. So for the 600 she'll be unable to foil on port tack and able to foil on stb.

 

Man if only they got both sides going then they would finish within a 6 hours of phaedo instead of 7

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When they get going so they can use three foils on both tacks they will likely do real well after they get it dialed in. They couldn't have better competition to help them develop the extraordinary potential of their unique foiling system.

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When they get going so they can use three foils on both tacks they will likely do real well after they get it dialed in. They couldn't have better competition to help them develop the extraordinary potential of their unique foiling system.

and I add:" fire arrow "

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I see you're well trained-but like the canine version probably don't know why. Thanks, though.

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From Team Maserati:


With just two days to go before the start of the RORC Caribbean 600 Race in Antigua the crew of the Italian Maserati Multi70 trimaran are closely monitoring an unusual set of weather conditions forecast for the period of the race.

Rather than the strong prevailing trade winds characteristic of the Caribbean at this time of year, the forecasts are calling for just 10 to 12 knots of breeze for the start of the race on Monday morning.

Drifting conditions expected over the 36 hours after the start.

Maserati Multi70 skipper Giovanni Soldini explained the situation: «It’s frustrating,» he said. «Normally the trade winds would be blowing strongly here, but there is a low-pressure system to the north of us which has shut them off completely. The forecasts are showing winds as light as four knots during the race.»

The light airs forecast is far from ideal for the Maserati Multi70. «We need winds above 14 knots to be competitive,» Soldini said. «In lighter winds the drag from the horizontal foil on the bottom of the central daggerboard slows us down a lot. It is important to remember that we are developing a flying boat and in light winds flying boats are slower than conventional ones.»

Yesterday the Italian crew took part in the Antigua 360 Race – a training race around the island of Antigua. The wind for the 52-mile sprint lap was light – 12 to 13 knots – and below the Maserati Multi70 foiling threshold. Nevertheless, the crew learned valuable lessons about how best to manoeuvre the boat in these lighter conditions.

Despite ultimately losing out on the water to the American MOD 70, Phaedo3, Soldini said there were lots of positives to take from the encounter – particularly early in the race when the L-foil allowed the boat to sail very fast windward even though the weather conditions prevented it from flying.


NOTE: this is a major difference between Maserati and Fire Arrow because the Fire Arrow System is designed specifically to be fast throughout the wind range with enough power to fly in 5 knots of wind, an oversquare beam for power to carry sail in strong winds and an active, automatic wand controlled main foil that can develop downforce in strong winds adding to RM.

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From Scuttlebutt yesterday:

 

February 22, 2017 – While the multihull race record was not broken this year, Phaedo3 and Maserati had an incredible 600 mile high-speed duel. Lloyd Thornburg’s MOD70, Phaedo3 finished the 2017 RORC Caribbean 600 on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 21 hrs 20 mins 46 secs AST, taking Multihull Line Honors.
Phaedo3 held on to win the battle of the trimarans, just 12 minutes ahead of Giovanni Soldini’s Italian MOD70, Maserati. The high-speed battle saw the lead change hands at least four times during the race. The winning crew is Lloyd Thornburg (Skipper), Brian Thompson (Co-skipper), Paul Allen, Peter Cumming, Michel Desjoyeaux, Robert Greenhalgh, Damian Foxall and Miles Seddon.
The experimental semi-foiling Maserati showed incredible speed on a reach and it took a momentous effort from Phaedo3’s well-established team to hold off the challenge. There was high drama at Guadeloupe with vicious squalls and heroics from Maserati’s crew diving into the water to free the boat from a fish trap.
Once back on the dock in Antigua, Lloyd Thornburg, skipper of the American boat Phaedo3, summed up the race, “Maserati gave us a heck of a run and it was really tough to stay ahead of a foiling boat. They kept coming at us with more pressure and they definitely have more speed at certain angles. The run down to Redonda was a real nail-biter and we knew that after that, the beat home would be in our favor and to cross the line ahead was just awesome.
Every year, I get reminded how insane a race this is and after this race, our navigator Miles Seddon said to me that we have turned the insanity up again this year. You never get used to this race – hanging on reaching at 36 knots, it is just incredible. All of our team had to dig so deep and we love Antigua and had an amazing reception.”
This year’s RORC Caribbean 600 proved to be a MOD70 match race around the 600 mile course for Giovanni Soldini’s MOD70, Maserati (ITA) and Lloyd Thornburg’s Phaedo3 (USA)
Brian Thompson, Co-Skipper of Phaedo3, commented on the unusual wind direction that had been predicted before the start, “We had a lot more wind speed for the race, which was a surprise. Off Guadeloupe we had huge rainsqualls that are really quite dangerous in a MOD70 and we had 30 knots of wind from nowhere and shifting 50 degrees in seconds, with Maserati pushing us all the way. The big gennaker stayed up and we had to put in a few big bear-away maneuvers to avoid capsize.
With the strange wind direction, we had to really think on our feet. It was an amazing race with Maserati though, and we got away several times, but they always caught us up. Right near the start they went blasting past us flying through the air, hooting and hollering and waving at us. That is what they had come for and they have learnt a lot about foiling a MOD.”
Maserati skipper, Giovanni Soldini was full of praise for both his Maserati team and their rivals Phaedo3. The Italian MOD70 has an experimental foil enabling them to literally fly when the boat is on starboard, but not when they are on port, enabling them to give Phaedo3 a really close fight.
“Phaedo are a very, very good team. They have known the boat for many years, whereas we are just beginning to get to know ours. We really flew a few times and we were able to play with Phaedo and I am really pleased with my crew, as they were fantastic. At the start of the last leg, we were just a minute behind. We have learnt a lot by racing with Phaedo and so we are improving our performance. Our dream was to make a MOD70 fly and in a couple of months we will have foils on both sides and life will be much more simple,” Soldini said.
Maserati’s race was not without incident. “When we were past La Desirade we caught a buoy on the rudder but we didn’t realize until near Barbuda,” explains Soldini. Carlos Hernadez heroically jumped into the water when it was blowing 20 knots and the boat would not stop, so he had to swim very fast!”
================================
================================
>>> No one would have any idea how well Maserati actually performed if all they read were the comments made by Martin on catsailingnews.com :
"The racing foil vs floating discussion is already over........"---talk about ignoring the facts! I love his newsletter but in this case he is completely wrong and presents a fictional version of the facts:
".... Maserati central T + amasT rudders +amas L/V foils are not adding performance......." There is no way Maserati could have been within 12 minutes of Phaedo at the finish or held the lead for at least FOUR times if what Martin said was true-very unfortunate when you have to go to Scuttlebutt to get the facts!

From Martin on catsailingnews:
Both teams reported close match racing mode to during the race. But the standard platform MOD70 Phaedo 3 prevailed. Half foiling tack for Maserati is not giving them any advantage, so we'll have to wait for them to equip again both amas with flying foils.
The racing foil vs floating discussion is already over, the aspect to see here on the MOD70s is which foiling setup is the right for the 70' Trimarans, and based on results and reports from the race, Maserati central T + amas T rudders + amas L/V foils are not adding performance if we analyze by simple logic that they should have an advantage when sailing on the foiling tack and at least maintain standard MOD70 perf on the opposite one. This taking apart any navigation consideration, which anyway is reported by both camps to be head to head. [/color]

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It was incredible racing between those two but it should be noted that since the trades were largely shut down, the C600 had abnormal wind directions (cold front overruling the trades). Since the winds were from a new direction and relatively local, there was little fetch and the seas were unusually calm for the moderate wind speeds. I think that favored the foiling boat (I know, I know, they can only foil on stbd).

 

I checked out Maserati up close before the start in Antigua and it is pretty cool. But I think the foiling versus non-foiling discussion for offshore racing is far from decided. Maserati may have won the C600 this year but in more typical tradewind conditions where the seas are larger, I am not so sure. They need 15 knots to foil or they are slower than a boat without and over 20 knots, the seas are typically going to be too large to fly reliably. So they have a pretty narrow range where they can reliably fly. DSS foils are proven winners as they don't (typically) lift the boat out of the water but add righting moment and some lift so the boats pitch is not critical to maintain flight.

 

Attached are snaps of their hydraulic systems for rudder and foiling daggerboard.

 

 

post-7845-0-68530800-1488039841_thumb.jpg

post-7845-0-13100900-1488040554_thumb.jpg

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Maserati didn't actually win-she was second by 12 minutes. The results page posted in the 600 thread was an RORC mistake or "fake news".

Her unique three point foil system with the largest foil on the daggerboard has great advantages at sea over tri's with only ama foils since it keeps the main hull clear of the water and allows earlier takeoff. Maserati has 4000+ miles of ocean sailing on her partial foil system and her foil designer and the Team think her foil system has great advantages in rough water compared to other foil systems being tried. Time will tell but her constant improvement in performance despite problems is a good indicator of what lies ahead.

Thanks for the pictures-did you happen to get any of her daggerboard lifting foil control system?

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Please generate the free body diagram that explains how the Maserati foils perform better than the solution the real experts (VPLP and M&M) are installing in their Ultim and smaller tris? Running through the configurations in my head you still have the main hull completely clear with L/V/Z foils in the amas as soon as you are reaching or deeper and upwind both this and the three point solution have the main hull skimming but the ama only foils have 2 or maybe 3 foils in the water but without the drag of a lifting foil on the hull.

 

I just don't see how the Maserati solution can be faster in all conditions on all angles; no doubt reaching its faster than the non-foiling MOD70 and if they have record conditions (which are set in solid breeze and flat water) they certainly could take the MOD70 24hr record and maybe up there for the overall record, but in actual racing I would bet money that a 4 point foiling solution, if the boat can handle it (I don't think it can take the loads which is why Maserati went this direction, not because it's superior, simply because it works without new beams or excessively heavy beams) is faster.

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The problem has been illustrated quite clearly by Maserati when she was Gitana: uptip foils on each ama with rudder T foils on each ama ---and regular mainhull water contact. View a recent Maserati video at sea and there is virtually no mainhull contact. Both Spindrift and Banque Populaire are being outfitted the same way Gitana was--unless something changes between now and when they are launched(which it well might given Maserati's impressive performance). Maserati is designed to sail with three foils in the water but has something none of the other boats do: a controllable AOI main foil(the largest of her three foils) capable of generating downforce if required.......

By the way Guillaume Verdier designed Maserati's foil system.

PS I'm looking forward to seeing how the TH10 works-I imagine it will work real well. I also imagine that a tri designed to use all the advantages Maserati has plus the other advantages of the Fire Arrow system( two-stage amas,wand or electronic mainfoil AOI control, oversquare platform, light air foiling capability) would likely win any race between the two....

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Please generate the free body diagram that explains how the Maserati foils perform better than the solution the real experts (VPLP and M&M) are installing in their Ultim and smaller tris? Running through the configurations in my head you still have the main hull completely clear with L/V/Z foils in the amas as soon as you are reaching or deeper and upwind both this and the three point solution have the main hull skimming but the ama only foils have 2 or maybe 3 foils in the water but without the drag of a lifting foil on the hull.

 

I just don't see how the Maserati solution can be faster in all conditions on all angles; no doubt reaching its faster than the non-foiling MOD70 and if they have record conditions (which are set in solid breeze and flat water) they certainly could take the MOD70 24hr record and maybe up there for the overall record, but in actual racing I would bet money that a 4 point foiling solution, if the boat can handle it (I don't think it can take the loads which is why Maserati went this direction, not because it's superior, simply because it works without new beams or excessively heavy beams) is faster.

 

You're off here : Maserati's largest lifting foil is the "Manta" foil on the daggerboard and it is probably capable of exerting more force on the structure than any "4pt" surface piercing foil system. It not only generates vertical lift but can generate downforce as well.

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Downforce on a central foil? Not sure I buy where that would be helpful but I'm not Verdier.

 

I think you missed my point on the beams; they are likely not sized for full foiling loads. See the Morticia failure for more information. I am sure Maserati has beefed up beam structures but you reduce the loads on the beams by a little less than 1/2 (rough thumbing) by foiling on the main hull. The trade off is you are carrying a big, draggy main lifting foil around at all times with virtually no ability to remove its drag from the equation when you want to. In any case, it will certainly be interesting to see what the VPLP Ultims use.

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It works really well on Maserati and on Fire Arrow. It keeps the main hull clear of the water and is particularly beneficial on an oversquare platform. The difference is apparent in the videos I mentioned. Downforce can increase RM if they choose to use it for that. Guillaume told me that, basically, they have to be real careful using it........

The way to remove the mainfoil drag is to have enough sail area to make up for light air drag. Thats a problem with Maserati that would be solved on a boat designed from scratch to use the Fire Arrow Foil System.

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Fire arrow is a joke to everyone but you. And it hasn't worked well on Maserati. They have lost every race and head to head meeting other than the navigation error gift. Maybe they will eventually get it going but by then VPLP will have shown the way.

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You can't knock Maserati for not winning the first few races it has entered when not 100% operational. Most would be too concerned about their ego's to enter. They're showing the way, maybe not the ultimate way to go, but someone has to break new ground or all you have is internet conjecture.

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You can't knock Maserati for not winning the first few races it has entered when not 100% operational. Most would be too concerned about their ego's to enter. They're showing the way, maybe not the ultimate way to go, but someone has to break new ground or all you have is internet conjecture the fire rocket and it's FackTup Foilsystem.

 

 

Fixerated for accuracy

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Somebody's full of it. If this is true it's a big "favor" to Phaedo since Maserati stuck with them in the 600 losing by only 12 minutes with one third of her foiling system non functional: http://maserati.soldini.it/maserati-multi70-completes-ocean-to-ocean-delivery/

 

 

" Once in San Francisco the work will begin on switching the boat to full-foiling mode for the Transpacific Race from Los Angeles to Hawaii this July.

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Maserati has been hauled in California to have the new rudder T-foil and the stb ama foil installed in prep for the Transpac in July. This will be her first race with her revolutionary foil system -ama "L" foils angled to work like UptiP foils plus the large "Manta" foil--a T-foil on her daggerboard-- and rudder T-foils on each ama.

Her last race against Phaedo -the Carribean 600- she held the lead 4 times and finished just 12 minutes behind the other Mod 70. An extraordinary race with one third of her foil system missing!

 

pix by photoboy:

 

2r25hk9.jpg

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Bring on the TransPac. the final decider. What an epic this one will be. Cheers. O:)

Why would you say that?

 

The only thing that seems for sure is that foil development is accelerating across the board if you pardon the pun for many many classes. I doubt anything is final for a few years. This will be just one race. P has a proven edge in some conditions and M has an edge in others. So far P has prevailed. But in the right conditions it could be the other way. There is no clear superior answer for across a wide range of conditions. Seems unlikely there will be one for some time.

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Bring on the TransPac. the final decider. What an epic this one will be. Cheers. O:)

Why would you say that?

 

The only thing that seems for sure is that foil development is accelerating across the board if you pardon the pun for many many classes. I doubt anything is final for a few years. This will be just one race. P has a proven edge in some conditions and M has an edge in others. So far P has prevailed. But in the right conditions it could be the other way. There is no clear superior answer for across a wide range of conditions. Seems unlikely there will be one for some time.

 

 

wrong: in their two most recent races Maserati won the first and was a close second in the last. She has shown remarkable improvement even with her handicap. Maserati's state of the art foil system has shown great promise and the Transpac will be the first time she has been able to use the complete system in any race. I agree, to a large extent, with trimariner: this will be a major milestone in the contest between Phaedo and Maserati and in Maserati's use of her unique foil system. That doesn't mean there won't be improvements down the line -especially when Phaedo adds foils- but this race will be a big deal.

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Bring on the TransPac. the final decider. What an epic this one will be. Cheers. O:)

Why would you say that?

 

The only thing that seems for sure is that foil development is accelerating across the board if you pardon the pun for many many classes. I doubt anything is final for a few years. This will be just one race. P has a proven edge in some conditions and M has an edge in others. So far P has prevailed. But in the right conditions it could be the other way. There is no clear superior answer for across a wide range of conditions. Seems unlikely there will be one for some time.

 

 

wrong: in their two most recent races Maserati won the first and was a close second in the last. She has shown remarkable improvement even with her handicap. Maserati's state of the art foil system has shown great promise and the Transpac will be the first time she has been able to use the complete system in any race. I agree, to a large extent, with trimariner: this will be a major milestone in the contest between Phaedo and Maserati and in Maserati's use of her unique foil system. That doesn't mean there won't be improvements down the line -especially when Phaedo adds foils- but this race will be a big deal.

 

 

WRONG - why are you so insecure and fragile about this that you need to qualify everything with Ifs, Buts and Maybes?????

 

No one associated closely with Maserati would claim, crow or otherwise about the Middle Sea race win where they were so far back prior to Phaedo's naviguessing fuck up as to be very humble; as they are both realists and professional to boot.

 

The Transpac will most likely be a one tack drag race. If so, my money would be on Maserati. If it is more mixed, varied and tactical, then Phaedo. But it is not a representational sample of all round superior performance, which ever side of the fence is jammed up your clacker......

 

No condemnation of foils or disproportional crowing about the "Worlds Longest feat of Foiling" Wankery will alter the fact that it will just be another step towards cracking the puzzle.

 

Though the DoG TwaT's wankery whatever the outcome will provide plenty more oxygen for his extensive fan base. I predict lots of Fire Turd and Wooly Jumper photos in our future.

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Giovanni Soldini explains the Manta foil--first pictures of the actual daggerboard foil: http://www.yachtingworld.com/catamaran-sailing/mod70-maserati-giovanni-soldini-benefits-manta-foil-ocean-racing-trimaran-99008

 

Fire Arrow and Maserati are the only two trimaran foilers using a daggerboard foil in combination with ama foils that work like UptiP foils(automatic altitude control) and a rudder T-foil(2 for Maserati). But there are others in development........

 

 

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Again, you are poorly informed. I wrote Guillaume Verdier(Maserati's foil system designer) about the idiotic comments earlier in this thread and on PressureDrop about Maserati "abandoning their foil system" and he wrote back that that was flat out untrue. A damn lie made up by someone who is even more uninformed than you are.

The Transpac will be the first race that Maserati will have their foil system (nearly the same as the basic Fire Arrow Foil System) at 100%.

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There you go again - name dropping and trying to sidle up to actual solutions to bask in their reflected glow...... U Da Man!

 

My pointed question was why are you posting a 6 month old article as if you are some arbiter of all things Failing - But the way you referenced their design as being connected to your own, speaks volumes about your modus operandi.

 

Thanks for never disappointing!

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There you go again - name dropping and trying to sidle up to actual solutions to bask in their reflected glow...... U Da Man!

 

My pointed question was why are you posting a 6 month old article as if you are some arbiter of all things Failing - But the way you referenced their design as being connected to your own, speaks volumes about your modus operandi.

 

Thanks for never disappointing!

 

I'm calling lies on the contacting GV and getting a reply, whenever someone contacts me about a clients work I politely tell them to fuck off.

 

Talk to my client, they talk to me, I talk to them.

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Guillaume Verdier is a tremendous,generous guy-he and I have talked by e-mail several times since Maserati first installed the Manta foil. He talked about the foil system design (including adjustable AOI of the Manta foil) as well as about the Fire Arrow pictures I sent him.

He was surprised that somebody would make up the story about the Maserati foils not being used in the Transpac.

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And told you, politely, to go fish, when you tried to take claim of the original concept, you deluded, name dropping, cherry picker.....

 

Go polish that magic bullet, but your mum will tell you that you will go blind......

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The original concept is 100% mine(6 years before Maserati) and the proof is in a couple of threads on boatdesign, one of which is linked below. Guillaume thought the Fire Arrow was real cool and was thinking of building another one for himself. He independently came up with the Maserati foil system and it is purely coincidental that the two basic systems are virtually identical. That gives us a lot to talk about when he has time.

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There you go again - name dropping and trying to sidle up to actual solutions to bask in their reflected glow...... U Da Man!

 

My pointed question was why are you posting a 6 month old article as if you are some arbiter of all things Failing - But the way you referenced their design as being connected to your own, speaks volumes about your modus operandi.

 

Thanks for never disappointing!

 

I'm calling lies on the contacting GV and getting a reply, whenever someone contacts me about a clients work I politely tell them to fuck off.

 

Talk to my client, they talk to me, I talk to them.

 

You need to be fair to Doug. I am not at all surprised he got a reply. The work is really rather public, so there is no breach of confidence. How much of value Doug is being told is another matter, but you need to understand that Doug isn't after learning anything because he is arrogant enough to believe he knows it all. What he is after is credibility through association.

 

What Doug never focuses on is the important differences between his set up and that of Maserati. He keeps going on about how similar they are, but that is only in static configuration. The important difference is that Doug's concept has the windward board out of the water, while with Maserati all foils are designed to be in.

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You need to be fair to Doug. I am not at all surprised he got a reply. The work is really rather public, so there is no breach of confidence. How much of value Doug is being told is another matter, but you need to understand that Doug isn't after learning anything because he is arrogant enough to believe he knows it all. What he is after is credibility through association.

What Doug never focuses on is the important differences between his set up and that of Maserati. He keeps going on about how similar they are, but that is only in static configuration. The important difference is that Doug's concept has the windward board out of the water, while with Maserati all foils are designed to be in.

 

 

Thats totally wrong! The windward ama foil is always out of the water on Maserati. Read the stuff that's been written by them: they call it a "3 point system". See picture below. The boats are most similar in dynamic configuration-not static configuration.

Just like Fire Arrow(windward foil automatically retracted due to 10 degree angle of heel-ideal to reduce crew workload on a small foiler). There are differences between Maserati and Fire Arrow but they are incidental having more to do with their size and mission.

Their daggerboard foil can develop downforce just like Fire Arrow but it is manually adjusted(via hydraulics) whereas Fire Arrow uses an actively controlled wand based system. Their ama foils are "L" foils that are installed at an angle so that when they go through the water they work like UptiP foils. Fire Arrow's ama foils are UptiP foil geometry and, like Maserati's ama foils, control the flight altitude of the lee ama. Fire Arrow's ama foils were the first UptiP foils used on any size trimaran and now all the Ultim's also use UptiP ama foils.

Maserati uses two rudder t-foils(windward foil mostly retracted) ,one mounted on each ama whereas Fire Arrow uses a single rudder T-foil mounted on the main hull. On Fire Arrow that's because of the two-stage amas-no room for a rudder T-foil and on small boats I think the single foil and two-stage ama(with planing ama hull) is a good combination providing excellent pitch control of the whole boat.

The basic setup is identical on both versions with the daggerboard main foil one of the most significant advances in trimaran foiler design ever.

 

Fire Arrow flying in a 5 mph wind 7/24/14:

 

photo by Doug Lord and Dan Burke-

71lmw3.jpg

photo by Gulain Grenier from Team Maserati:

2ntg3tg.jpg

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Guillaume Verdier is a tremendous,generous guy-he and I have talked by e-mail several times since Maserati first installed the Manta foil. He talked about the foil system design (including adjustable AOI of the Manta foil) as well as about the Fire Arrow pictures I sent him.

He was surprised that somebody would make up the story about the Maserati foils not being used in the Transpac.

 

That's interesting, I mean we have little things called NDA's.

 

Even on the jobs where we don't have anything like that, in all employees contracts, it states that they will be immediately terminated if they discuss work or release any information to anyone except their supervisor/if they are the senior then only to the client.

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Maserati's new foils for the Transpac have arrived in Richmond California: http://www.pressure-drop.us/forums/showthread.php?4683-Foiling-Up-On-Maserati&p=46606#post46606

Pictures by "Photoboy" on Pressure Drop forum: right top pix and bottom picture the Manta foil(daggerboard main foil)-other foil is one of the ama UptiP foils(works like an UptiP foil)- Foil system designed by Guillaume Verdier is the most unique trimaran foil configuration ever used on a large tri and very similar to the Fire Arrow Foil System first conceived 7 years ago and tested successfully four years ago:

Maserati foils 6-2-17.jpg

Maserati mainfoil 6-2-17.jpg

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That thing looks like a hanglider from the 70's...... 

Gonna need a fair bit of breeze to compensate, and a debris free race track.

 

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That "Manta" mainfoil already has over 6000 miles on it with no failures whatsoever. Designed by Guillaume Verdier ,one of the premier foil designers of our era.

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So from I14's, Moths, A- Cats, GC32, AC and every other type of hydrofoil equipped boat, how many of them utilise a Manta shaped solution on either their daggerboard or rudder.....? 

Thought so.

So you have a hard on for Guillaume at the moment...... Does he have similar levels of excitement for you?

Thought not.

 

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You exceed the known levels of human mediocrity.

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14 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

You exceed the known levels of human mediocrity.

Bingo!!!!!

Thank you for clarifying that I am way above being mediocre.

I am sure that is not what you intended - but thank you for the compliment.:lol:

I am not going to return the compliment beacuse you don't deserve it.

This is a classic example of your own failure. You are truly the Lord of Fail.

Tip: If you don't understand, then don't use the term, word or phrase. This advice applies to you at many levels.

You need to brush up on your comprehension, sentance contruction and writing skills. And, while your at it, try to learn some actual knowledge about hydrofoils.

But clearly the blood flow to your genitals has hampered your ability to think straight....... And you may also be suffering the first symptoms of blindness.

Your mummy did warn you!

 

 

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Doug did post something interesting there.

1- why would they use that planform in the dagger foil? there must be a reason not to go with a better aspect ratio foil. What is the compromise here?

2- area seems very small for a full foiler. It´s a big boat. Maybe its weight is supported mainly by the L foils in the amas and the dagger foil just supports a small percentage?

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On the Fire Arrow Foil System which is basically the same as Maserati but operates in much lighter air to start, the mainfoil supports close to 80% of the weight of the boat in the lightest air but immediately begins to unload. Mainhull altitude is controlled automatically with dual wands. The mainfoil unloads to the point of zero lift then begins to develop downforce automatically. The UptiP ama foil provides automatic altitude control for the ama  and starts out with 2-3% of the load but as the boat speeds up begins to take up to a max of about 110+% of the total weight. 

Maserati would be similar including using the mainfoil for downforce to increase RM-but the mainfoil AOI is controlled manually(with hydraulics). The lee ama foil is an "L" foil but works like an UptiP foil providing automatic altitude control for the ama.

The mainfoil on both systems is a major contributor to pitch control.

----------------------------

The mainfoil planform on Maserati is designed that way because of the exceptionally high speeds possible with the foil configuration. 

 

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18 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

 

The mainfoil planform on Maserati is designed that way because of the exceptionally high speeds possible with the foil configuration. 

 

you dont see high sweep planforms in the foils of AC50s, which are faster or equal top speed than maserati, nor in any T foils of sailboats travelling at 20 to 30 kt. Why would it be different for something travelling 40-45 kt? there must be another reason

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http://fluidsengineering.asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/article.aspx?articleid=1426884

Abstract

An experiment was conducted to investigate the effects of sweep angle on hydrofoil loadings in cavitation. Tests were carried out in a water tunnel on constant-chord full-span hydrofoils at four angles of attack for sweep angle 0, 15, 30, and 45 deg, respectively. The results obtained were that the strong, periodic oscillations which appeared under some conditions of partial cavitation decreased their amplitudes with an increase in sweep angle. Moreover, the lift-drag ratio showed the higher value for the highly swept hydrofoil and remained higher down to some lower cavitation numbers than those for the slightly swept model.

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14 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

http://fluidsengineering.asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/article.aspx?articleid=1426884

Abstract

An experiment was conducted to investigate the effects of sweep angle on hydrofoil loadings in cavitation. Tests were carried out in a water tunnel on constant-chord full-span hydrofoils at four angles of attack for sweep angle 0, 15, 30, and 45 deg, respectively. The results obtained were that the strong, periodic oscillations which appeared under some conditions of partial cavitation decreased their amplitudes with an increase in sweep angle. Moreover, the lift-drag ratio showed the higher value for the highly swept hydrofoil and remained higher down to some lower cavitation numbers than those for the slightly swept model.

Very interesting, thanks. So you are saying that Maserati foil is optimized for top speed (cavitation conditions)? but why do the L foils and the T rudders have a more conventional planform with much less sweep?

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I dont buy it that at all. Look at the respective sizes of the foils - the manta foil is mainly there for stability working in with the rudder foils. The ama foils provide the lions share of the lift, and the rudders and manta foil-with their adjustment range- allow the boat to be trimmed out nice and stable for conditions found in offshore conditions, not round the bouys americas cup style races.

 

This has always been the problem in ocean racing and foiling - its essentially a stability problem with the loads on the boat changing in wave action, changing wind pressure and the possibility of foils coming clear of the water in rough seastates. The boat on foils gets very unsettled and its too difficult to maintain high speeds without the constant prospect of catastrophe. Remember these boats are being raced in rough seas, all through the night for several days at a time. To be fast the boat also needs to be settled or the crew will pull it back a notch if they feel like they will crash in the middle of the night! These are the real world problems that you dont seem to understand yet doug - racing in the ocean is not like racing in flat water in a harbour, its a totally different ball game and its why foiling has not yet proven to be faster than foil assist in ocean races.

 

 

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4 hours ago, groper said:

I dont buy it that at all. Look at the respective sizes of the foils - the manta foil is mainly there for stability working in with the rudder foils. The ama foils provide the lions share of the lift, and the rudders and manta foil-with their adjustment range- allow the boat to be trimmed out nice and stable for conditions found in offshore conditions, not round the bouys americas cup style races.

 

This has always been the problem in ocean racing and foiling - its essentially a stability problem with the loads on the boat changing in wave action, changing wind pressure and the possibility of foils coming clear of the water in rough seastates. The boat on foils gets very unsettled and its too difficult to maintain high speeds without the constant prospect of catastrophe. Remember these boats are being raced in rough seas, all through the night for several days at a time. To be fast the boat also needs to be settled or the crew will pull it back a notch if they feel like they will crash in the middle of the night! These are the real world problems that you dont seem to understand yet doug - racing in the ocean is not like racing in flat water in a harbour, its a totally different ball game and its why foiling has not yet proven to be faster than foil assist in ocean races.

 

 

 Maserati has around 6000 miles on part of her foil system-one ama foil and the Manta foil.  There has never been a foil system like Maserati's used on any ocean racing tri ever. Her stb ama foil was taken out in a ufo collision so she had to race the Malta race(which she won , thanks to Phaedo) with a third of the system down. Nevertheless, she closed the gap with Phaedo in the Carribean 600 to just 12 minutes after 600 miles! Again, that's with a third of her foiling capability down.  Guillaume Verdiers version of the Fire Arrow Foil System he designed  for Maserati was designed for rough water and high speed-it is the ideal foil system for a large trimaran because of its stability and its proven ability to function at a high level through thousands of ocean miles in all kinds of conditions.

Depending on conditions the Manta foil can lift most of the weight of the boat. It's primary purpose is pitch stability and keeping the main hull out of the water.

 

 

 

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Maserati back in the water with her complete foil system:

 

 

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On 08/06/2017 at 1:33 PM, Doug Lord said:

Guillaume Verdiers version of the Fire Arrow Foil System he designed  for Maserati....

 

 

Are you really claiming its design is based on your toy boat?

 

Lets hear that little detail from the man himself, rather than you laying claim to it. 

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The basics of the two systems are identical-a coincidence and very exciting. The system designed by Guillaume Verdier is revolutionizing large trimaran foil design. The Fire Arrow Foil System is basically identical to the larger boat with significant differences in details related to the size of the boat.

The Fire Arrow was the very first trimaran of any size to use UptiP ama foils combined with an actively controlled foil on the daggerboard-along with other innovations like the two-stage planing amas with high dihedral crossarms.

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4 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

The basics of the two systems are identical-a coincidence and very exciting. The system designed by Guillaume Verdier is revolutionizing large trimaran foil design. The Fire Arrow Foil System is basically identical to the larger boat with significant differences in details related to the size of the boat.

The Fire Arrow was the very first trimaran of any size to use UptiP ama foils combined with an actively controlled foil on the daggerboard-along with other innovations like the two-stage planing amas with high dihedral crossarms.

Here we go again. The 2 systems are not identical. Doug loves to brush over the differences, such as the wand controlled central T foil on his toy which is very different from the manta ray style foil on Maserati which can be changed through manual use of a hydraulic system but is actually a passive system rather than the active wand of Doug's toy. Everywhere else Doug makes a huge point about the differences between active wand systems and non active systems but in this case, he chooses to ignore them. In addition, with Doug's toy the intention is that the windward v foil is out of the water with the boat heeled while with Maserati the boat is designed to sail with both down and to be level  Also not the rudder foil set ups are different, but other than those 3 major things, they are identical.;)

23 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Maserati back in the water with her complete foil system:

 

 

Funny how in this video we don't get very much, if any, full foiling. Seems like for some of the time it will only be foil assist.