Doug Lord

Maserati on Foils

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On 6/26/2017 at 11:13 AM, Doug Lord said:

You're wrong! Someone has to be able to control the foil or else there could be a pitch-up or crash. The Fire Arrow System would not work without active mainfoil control and neither would Maserati's.

I really didn't get the relevance of this. It clearly show us how different Doug's toy really is from Maserati. To start with, Maserati does not have active main foil control. Maybe Doug doesn't know this, but in the foiling world, active is considered to be where some feedback mechanism adjusts the foils to the specific conditions, such as a wand as used by Doug's toy. Passive is where nothing moves unless it has human input. This is a universal understanding which has probably passed Doug by.

Doug's toy has active control with no human intervention. He admits it would not work without that active main foil control. Maserati has a passive system which only moves when operated by a human. The Maserati system does not require constant input to keep the boat sailing but the setting is changed according to overall conditions and then left until those conditions change.

So all of Doug's claims that his system is the same as Maserati's are wrong. He might have foils in the same place (not the rudders), but the way the main foil works is very different.

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On 26/06/2017 at 11:10 PM, Doug Lord said:

Why do you pathetic little people even post?? You aren't even able to comprehend whats being discussed?!

You're quite right Doug, nobody can comprehend what the fuck you're talking about. 

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Am I correct in thinking that the main foil only provides lift not downforce? If so it seems to me to have a very narrow window when it provides any benefit. High drag in low wind conditions, a gain only when the main hull is flying when it wouldn't otherwise be and nil gain or a small weight disadvantage when hull would be flying anyway.

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10 hours ago, Rawhide said:

Am I correct in thinking that the main foil only provides lift not downforce? If so it seems to me to have a very narrow window when it provides any benefit. High drag in low wind conditions, a gain only when the main hull is flying when it wouldn't otherwise be and nil gain or a small weight disadvantage when hull would be flying anyway.

No, the Maserati foil can generate downforce. It is an actively controlled foil-manually using hydraulics. The frequency of AOI change is much less than that of an AC main foil.  The main foil can keep the main hull clear of the water much more of the time than if it wasn't there so it reduces drag as well as working with the rudder t-foil to enhance pitch stability.

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19 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

I really didn't get the relevance of this. It clearly show us how different Doug's Test Model really is from Maserati. To start with, Maserati does not have active main foil control. Maybe Doug doesn't know this, but in the foiling world, active is considered to be where some feedback mechanism adjusts the foils to the specific conditions, such as a wand as used by Doug's Test Model. Passive is where nothing moves unless it has human input. This is a universal understanding which has probably passed Doug by. This is the same kind of uninformed bullshit you posted earlier saying that Maserati didn't retract its windward foil despite all the proof to the contrary!!! post 287 on the previous page-----it defines your level of knowledge as incredibly poor!

Doug's Test Model has active control with no human intervention. He admits it would not work without that active main foil control. Maserati has a passive system which only moves when operated by a human. The Maserati system does not require constant input to keep the boat sailing but the setting is changed according to overall conditions and then left until those conditions change.

 

That is incorrect.

Passive describes a foil that is not regularly adjusted like many surface piercing foils(Hydroptere for example) or the rudder T-foil on many foilers that is seldom adjusted and others -like many well designed UptiP foils.

An active foil is one that is adjusted by humans with or without hydraulics -like the main foil on an AC 50 or the mainfoil on Maserati or the main foils on a wand based boat where the wand automatically controls ride height. The frequency of AOI adjustment can vary a lot on an active foil.

The Fire Arrow Test Model and the fullsize WOLF have both systems: an active wand controlled main foil and passive UptiP ama foils and a passive rudder T-foil. The UptiP ama foils and rudder t-foil are almost never adjusted.

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Note the retracted windward ama foil........(see post 101 as well)

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3 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

That is incorrect.

Passive describes a foil that is not regularly adjusted like many surface piercing foils(Hydroptere for example) or the rudder T-foil on many foilers that is seldom adjusted and others -like many well designed UptiP foils.

An active foil is one that is adjusted by humans with or without hydraulics -like the main foil on an AC 50 or the mainfoil on Maserati or the main foils on a wand based boat where the wand automatically controls ride height. The frequency of AOI adjustment can vary a lot on an active foil.

The Fire Arrow Test Model and the fullsize WOLF have both systems: an active wand controlled main foil and passive UptiP ama foils and a passive rudder T-foil. The UptiP ama foils and rudder t-foil are almost never adjusted.

You are so wrong but then again, we know this from your your great track record on the AC forum where you git every single thing wrong about AC foils. Everybody else defines passive and active systems in a completely different way to you. An active system is one that automatically adjusts to the conditions. A passive system doesn't adjust itself and relies on human intervention. Again, if you don't understand the basics, STFU.

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Nonsense-see post 306.......

MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling on video-7-24-14 012 (1).JPG

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23 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Nonsense-see post 306.......

 

Love the way you post a picture of your boat to try to prove your point about passive vs active when a picture tells us nothing and posting the same video twice is totally pointless.

You can protest as much as you like, but you are wrong. An active system self adjusts, a passive system needs human intervention. This is a basic convention that applies to in many areas and is a basic engineering principal. Foiling doesn't change that. Foil designers also use this convention. You are the only person i have come across who doesn't understand it. Basic engineering. WTF would you know.

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Lord of Fail, stop being a pussy and go to The Winning Foils forum in AC Land and respond to Darth Repius for all your errors, trolling and fuck ups. Be a grown up for the first time ever, or cement your position as the most worthless POS here.

As pointed out by ACS; active and passive are commonly understood conventions, except by you (what a surprise). 

Your toy is active, or as active as a machine can be, that hasnt got wet in the last three years........ Maserati, conversely, is Passive. 

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Thanks for that-I'll find out more about it soon.

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1 hour ago, Doug Lord said:

Thanks for that-I'll find out more about it soon.

Meaning: I'm going to bust Soldini's balls till I get an answer!!!

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6 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

Active and Passive refer to the method a foil uses to control flight altitude:

1) Active means that either the whole foil or a flap attached to it is moved on a regular basis to control flight altitude.

2) Passive means that neither the whole foil nor a flap attached to it is used to control flight altitude. Examples include: 

a. Surface piercing foils where altitude is controlled by speed,

b. UptiP foils where altitude is controlled by leeway coupling only and/or by a combination of leeway coupling and tip breach.

c. Trailing rudder T-foils. On many foilers these foils are preset and rarely if ever adjusted.

 

 

You really are an ignorant and stuborn SOB. This nis totally wrong and goes against all engineering convention, which is used by everybody except you. An active system moves iteslf. A passive system only moves through human intervention. Your claim that human intervention is what makes a system active is simply wrong. 

3 hours ago, trackday said:

Oh Lord... why am I even getting involved... but here it is...

Maserati has active rudder flaps on the t-foils...

Over and Out

If the flaps are active, what is the mechanism that moves them?

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11 hours ago, Boink said:

Lord of Fail, stop being a pussy and go to The Winning Foils forum in AC Land and respond to Darth Repius for all your errors, trolling and fuck ups. Be a grown up for the first time ever, or cement your position as the most worthless POS here.

As pointed out by ACS; active and passive are commonly understood conventions, except by you (what a surprise). 

Your Test Model is active, or as active as a machine can be, that hasnt got wet in the last three years........ Maserati, conversely, is Passive. 

Just illustrating how uninformed you and ACS really are- at least when it comes to my boat and Maserati:

1) Fire Arrow has an actively controlled mainfoil AND  two passive UptiP ama foils , used one at a time(like Maserati). Fire Arrow

 also has a trailing (passive) rudder T-foil. 

2) Maserati has an active manually controlled(using hydraulics) mainfoil AND two passive ama "L" foils(that work like UptiP foils) one at a time.  Maserati  has two rudder T-foils used one at a time .Maserati uses a single rudder t-foil at a time which may or may not be actively controlled by the crew with or without hydraulic or electrical power.

======================================

Active and Passive refer to the method a foil uses to control flight altitude:

1) Active means that either the whole foil or a flap attached to it is moved automatically by a surface sensor or manually(with or w/o hydraulics or electrical power) on a regular basis to control flight altitude. Examples include: AC cats, wand based foilers, any foiler where flight altitude is controlled manually.

2) Passive means that neither the whole foil nor a flap attached to it is moved by any means to control flight altitude. Examples include: 

a. Surface piercing foils where altitude is controlled by speed,

b. UptiP foils where altitude is controlled by leeway coupling only and/or by a combination of leeway coupling and tip breach.

c. Trailing rudder T-foils. On many foilers these foils are preset and rarely if ever adjusted.

3) Some new systems like Maserati and Fire Arrow/WOLF have both Active and Passive Systems--active main foil and passive ama foils. And on Maserati possibly active rudder T-foil flap control. Rudder T-foil on Fire Arrow/Wolf is passive-requires zero adjustment.

4) Most foils have manual AOI adjustment on shore or while sailing on an intermittent basis depending on conditions in addition to Passive or Active flight altitude control.

 

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1 hour ago, Doug Lord said:

…Maserati  has two rudder T-foils used one at a time .Maserati uses a single rudder t-foil at a time which may or may not be actively controlled by the crew with or without hydraulic or electrical power.

Seems to me Maserati has 3 rudders, with the main rudder always deployed and the windward float rudder retracted. This image is from a video posted in December 2016, I can't find a newer one. Are you saying they've removed the center rudder?

Your definition of "active" could mean that a Moth rudder is an "active" foil:

"Active means that either the whole foil or a flap attached to it is moved automatically by a surface sensor or manually"

(my emphasis). Then you say:

"Most foils have manual AOI adjustment on shore or while sailing"

So "most foils" are active, and a foil is only passive if never adjusted.

But you also say "active" refers to "the method a foil uses to control flight altitude", which is a very restrictive meaning of the term. Rudder foils aren't used to control altitude, they control pitch. So is a rudder foil can't be an active foil since it doesn't control altitude.

So even if I have a sensor controlled, electrically motivated rudder foil to exactly control pitch, that's a "passive" foil? And if I have Z foils that I change the angle of from tack to tack so the windward foil has less AoA and the leeward foil more AoA is active, even though I only change it from tack to tack and that the change I make has little effect on altitude but a big effect on leeway, drag and RM?

 

Maserati.jpg

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From the bit of film at post 307 it looks like the centre rudder has been removed and they still retract the windward rudder.

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38 minutes ago, DtM said:

From the bit of film at post 307 it looks like the centre rudder has been removed and they still retract the windward rudder.

It does't appear that way to me. In every shot there is a white appendage on the central stern that looks remarkably a rudder extending down to the waterline. There also appear to be white linkages between the float rudders and center hull appendage so all the fittings are in place. Since there's no foiling or lifting of the central hull there's no definitive proof either way but it doesn't seem sensible to chop it at the waterline.

Of course they might have just removed the rudder and left the fittings in place for simplicity, but in a pure racing boat why would you do that? Most don't even have a spare main sail. Even if the central rudder isn't necessary for lifting it would make sense to have a plain blade as an auxiliary in case a float rudder is disabled or removed through collision. If there's an auxiliary steering rudder it might as well double as an auxiliary lifting rudder. This boat is intended for long sea passages, so backup of such fundamental systems make sense (to me).

Additionally, there's a good case for setting a different AoA on the float and central rudders since the foils in the respective hulls work very differently so may need to be trimmed differently.

Another red herring is that if the boat really was going 40kn (I have no reason to doubt that it was, it's certainly getting along), why isn't it fully foiling?

Maserati 2.jpg

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On 6/30/2017 at 9:27 AM, Doug Lord said:

Just illustrating how uninformed you and ACS really are- at least when it comes to my boat and Maserati:

1) Fire Arrow has an actively controlled mainfoil AND  two passive UptiP ama foils , used one at a time(like Maserati). Fire Arrow

 also has a trailing (passive) rudder T-foil. 

2) Maserati has an active manually controlled(using hydraulics) mainfoil AND two passive ama "L" foils(that work like UptiP foils) one at a time.  Maserati  has two rudder T-foils used one at a time .Maserati uses a single rudder t-foil at a time which may or may not be actively controlled by the crew with or without hydraulic or electrical power.

 

Look retard, your track record speaks for itself. Your own designs do not perform against your own benchmarks, and 4 years after it was launched, you still can't show more than 17 seconds of lurching hip hop pogo stick like behaviour...... Which even the most lazy of cretins could have faked up some bogus evidence to support its claims; but not you, which also speaks volumes of how hopeless you and your designs are.

Secondly, this discussion is about your mistaken comparison between the main hull foil found on your lawn ornament versus that found on Maserati. The ama foils and rudders are not being discussed, disputed or argued over.

Yet again you seek to muddy the waters and dilute your own ignorance and feeble grasp of the basics by trying to derail the discussion/dispute.

The facts remain, your toilet seat has a main foil that once upon a time, a long, long, long time ago was controlled by wand is is therefore considered by those who actually know what they are talking about to be an "active" foil. Conversely, the main hull "manta" foil of Maserati is hydraullically controlled, on a set and forget basis, thereby altered only as wind, sea state and course steered is changed. It is not permanently manned, nor trimmed continuously as it is a "passive" foil.

Please regale us with your bleatings to the contrary.

Because:

46fcf383e22fc9bf7397e7c5ad131498.jpg

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On 6/29/2017 at 6:27 PM, Doug Lord said:

 

2) Maserati has an active manually controlled(using hydraulics) mainfoil AND two passive ama "L" foils(that work like UptiP foils) one at a time.  Maserati  has two rudder T-foils used one at a time .Maserati uses a single rudder t-foil at a time which may or may not be actively controlled by the crew with or without hydraulic or electrical power.

======================================

 

DL... the flaps on the rudders are actively controlled hydraulic ram  located at the top of the blade attached to a rod that runs down the blade at the max cord thickness. 

 

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7 hours ago, trackday said:

DL... the flaps on the rudders are actively controlled hydraulic ram  located at the top of the blade attached to a rod that runs down the blade at the max cord thickness. 

 

actively controlled? So they move with no human intervention but are controlled by some sort of independent system that changes the flap to suit conditions? What type of system provides the inputs to move the flaps? Details would be appreciated.

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On 30/6/2017 at 2:28 AM, RobG said:

It does't appear that way to me. In every shot there is a white appendage on the central stern that looks remarkably a rudder extending down to the waterline. There also appear to be white linkages between the float rudders and center hull appendage so all the fittings are in place. Since there's no foiling or lifting of the central hull there's no definitive proof either way but it doesn't seem sensible to chop it at the waterline.

Of course they might have just removed the rudder and left the fittings in place for simplicity, but in a pure racing boat why would you do that? Most don't even have a spare main sail. Even if the central rudder isn't necessary for lifting it would make sense to have a plain blade as an auxiliary in case a float rudder is disabled or removed through collision. If there's an auxiliary steering rudder it might as well double as an auxiliary lifting rudder. This boat is intended for long sea passages, so backup of such fundamental systems make sense (to me).

Additionally, there's a good case for setting a different AoA on the float and central rudders since the foils in the respective hulls work very differently so may need to be trimmed differently.

Another red herring is that if the boat really was going 40kn (I have no reason to doubt that it was, it's certainly getting along), why isn't it fully foiling?

Maserati 2.jpg

.According to that picture, and the one posted on the transpac multihulls thread, maserati has a rudder on the central hull. And from this picture above I can say that the two ama rudders are not working IMO

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I'd suggest that the rudder on the AMA on the port side is in the up position, and the rudder on the AMA on the starboard side is in the down position, you can just see the top of the rudder in the starboard cassette,  and yes the main rudder is in the water and not in its flipped up position.  

Si?

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7 hours ago, Keith said:

I'd suggest that the rudder on the AMA on the port side is in the up position, and the rudder on the AMA on the starboard side is in the down position, you can just see the top of the rudder in the starboard cassette,  and yes the main rudder is in the water and not in its flipped up position.  

Si?

My mistake

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Good photo of the flipped up position in the transpac multi thread.  If I knew how to copy and paste it I would.

Rob,  absolute proof you were correct !!!

 

 

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I guess you mean this one posted by overbeek:

1.jpg

I'm surprised it doesn't have a horizontal foil, I guess they control pitch through the float rudders.

Any pictures of the float rudder horizontals?

 

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Wow, no he who can't be named...  Maybe his AC thrashing ran him off.  Early on but looks tight in Transpac w Maserati fastest for a while now.  Interesting the Maserati is "rated" as faster than Phaedo3 so they better win, LOL.  But I am cheering on LP on Mighty Merloe!

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Careful - he who cant be named looks like he will be eating humble pie once again as the foil assist boats are going to finish ahead of the full foiling Maserati :o

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Well, Maserati did hit something and trash one of their rudders so...

But a bit surprised at Phaedo's talk of being outgunned.  At least per the ratings assigned they should be beating the Mighty Merloe.  Perhaps out brained and out classed by Loic and the boys?  Merloe headed north of rumb line while Phaedo gybes south.  Desperation?  Hero or zero move?  I am liking Merloe's track but only time will tell. 

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All three tri's are so close its amazing, and dont forget, Phaedo's down one very important crew member. 

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Oh yea. Mad props to them all (Maserati, Phaedo and Merloe).  Loic is a legend though so I gotta pull for Mighty.

More seriously interested and watching to see what the GB can and can't hang with when pushed in race mode.

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So Maserati gets beaten yet again by a non foiling multi in an important ocean race. Who would have thought it. I guess one day they will have acombination of luck, perfect conditions and not make any stupid mistakes and they will get a win, but the success rate is pretty poor. Clearly need to pray harder to the LorD of FoilS

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9 minutes ago, DtM said:

There is a redesign happening right now by the Lord.

IdioT! You don't understand! It doesn't need a redesign. It works perfectly as I have proven many times with my foiling tri that clearly was the first of its type in the history of not only mankind but also the universe. Haven't you seen how often I have posted that proof. If the other competitors had understood, there is no way maserati could ever have lost. It's only a matter of time before all the others realise that they need the same foils as MaSeraTi in order to ensure MaSeraTi wins. Also make sure you use the new and correct way of writing MaSeraTi  which emphasises the importance of this life transforming development and realisation of my original concept.

The LorD of the FoiLs

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

IdioT! You don't understand! It doesn't need a redesign. It works perfectly as I have proven many times with my foiling tri that clearly was the first of its type in the history of not only mankind but also the universe. Haven't you seen how often I have posted that proof. If the other competitors had understood, there is no way maserati could ever have lost. It's only a matter of time before all the others realise that they need the same foils as MaSeraTi in order to ensure MaSeraTi wins. Also make sure you use the new and correct way of writing MaSeraTi  which emphasises the importance of this life transforming development and realisation of my original concept.

The LorD of the FoiLs

Hahaha.  I find it annoying that I was actually hoping Maserati lose just so we didn't have to hear the LorD of the FoiLs incessantly bragging.  Turns out the fIRe aRROw foil system doesn't work on pond toys or 70ft tris.......

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Maserati fucked up with that draggy and redundant central hull T foil stuck on its main dagger? Would have cleaned up otherwise? Why do they need a central inverted T dagger when the leeward float foil is doing all the lift required? Don't answer that dOuG.

Aside from bashing our favorite GuRu, Mighty Merloe is the superb ex Groupama 11 which easily cleaned up the rest of the ORMA fleet in its day. Still a rocket ship it appears. Loic may have helped a little too.

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Well, well, well!

Congrats to the Mighty Merloe, great job, awesome execution and giant killing performance. 

The Lord of Fail will be beside himself with grief and anxiety. Which is Brilliant.:lol:

So within a month his mighty Orifice have failed, his unrequited Love, Guillaume has failed to share the accolades of sucess with the fLoriDa putz and now Maserati have Failed to deliver, yet again......

On a less gleeful basis; I know that Maserati has rudder damage, but that was later into the race. So where were the bursts of speed that we all expected to witness? There really didn't seem to be night and day difference that might be anticipated. And this was against Phaedo who would be handicapped by the omission of Brian Thompson.

The debrief will be interesting to read. 

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5 hours ago, dave202 said:

Hahaha.  I find it annoying that I was actually hoping Maserati lose just so we didn't have to hear the LorD of the FoiLs incessantly bragging.  Turns out the fIRe aRROw foil system doesn't work on pond toys or 70ft tris.......

Well it looks like eLvIs has left (or been forced to leave) the building???  Good thing if so.

But if not just put him on ignore. 

Oddly, I found myself hoping same (Maserati would lose prior races) and I realized that was a pretty silly view for me to have.  The folks on that boat are not idiots. They are out there pushing the limits of what you can do with foils on a multi offshore and I (we all?) should be applauding their efforts.  They didn't associated themselves with the lOrD of idiocy.  He wrongly associated himself with them in some stupid desperate attempt at legitimacy.

Anyway, just one opinion and worth what you paid but put lOrD IdIoT on IGNORE and follow and give props to Maserarti for pushing the limits and sending it.  Foils are the future and they are climbing a rocky overhanging wall.  Hats off to them!

 

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Guys you really are going to have to suck up a huge amount of self inflicted pain in a pretty short period of time. Of the 3 Tri's, Maserati is very much a new concept, whereas the others have long been honed into race winning boats. That honing took many years of both design and race miles.

Now Maserati has only just started its tuning curve, give it time and some descent trouble free miles and then consider that its already nearly up to race competitive speeds. 12 months down the line it will be up there with the big boys. Will it be a consistent winner, will it be a game changer, I'm going to sit on the fence on that, but what I'm pretty sure of is that it is only going to get faster as the development curve kicks in, whereas the other two boats are probably already maxed out. 

 

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4 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Guys you really are going to have to suck up a huge amount of self inflicted pain in a pretty short period of time. Of the 3 Tri's, Maserati is very much a new concept, whereas the others have long been honed into race winning boats. That honing took many years of both design and race miles.

Now Maserati has only just started its tuning curve, give it time and some descent trouble free miles and then consider that its already nearly up to race competitive speeds. 12 months down the line it will be up there with the big boys. Will it be a consistent winner, will it be a game changer, I'm going to sit on the fence on that, but what I'm pretty sure of is that it is only going to get faster as the development curve kicks in, whereas the other two boats are probably already maxed out. 

 

Partially agree with your comment.  IMHO it's a trade off between foling and foil assist-. Foil assist is more conservative and foiling is going on the edge. Perhaps there will be times when you make a difference, times when you will not. You won´t be able to foil 100 % on long runs, and when you're not, the drag of the center foil, will slow you. Definitely I don't subscribe the lOrdS way of being, and I'm glad he's not been around here for a while.

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Even when the foiling system doesnt break, its always a probability and thats a factor in race winning reliability along with all the other systems on a raceboat.

Foiling in the ocean is not as simple as foiling in partially smooth water - thats a no brainer to anyone who actually been sailing in big seas instead of behind a keyboard like the lord of ignorance and practicality - he once suggested i put Z foils on a performance cruising cat!!!

Despite being glad that mazerati didnt win (due to the incessant bombardment of DL pollution that would surely follow) there will be inevitably be a day when this boat will win races. However those days will certainly only be the days when conditions are predominately favourable to the foiling boat. As soon as the race has lots of light wind or upwind legs - there wont be any advantage to foiling in the ocean and mazerati is at a disadvantage. 

This transpac race would have been ideal for mazerati to win - pretty much all downwind sailing in the moderate trade winds - you cant ask for better foiling mode conditions than that. Im surprised its wasnt quicker and pull away further before they broke the rudder - if the system was that good, why didnt they?

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Guys you really are going to have to suck up a huge amount of self inflicted pain in a pretty short period of time. Of the 3 Tri's, Maserati is very much a new concept, whereas the others have long been honed into race winning boats. That honing took many years of both design and race miles.

Now Maserati has only just started its tuning curve, give it time and some descent trouble free miles and then consider that its already nearly up to race competitive speeds. 12 months down the line it will be up there with the big boys. Will it be a consistent winner, will it be a game changer, I'm going to sit on the fence on that, but what I'm pretty sure of is that it is only going to get faster as the development curve kicks in, whereas the other two boats are probably already maxed out. 

 

Yeah, I had guilt pangs too, hoping Maserati didn't do too well just to spite the troll. 

Maserati did show some good pace before breaking its starboard rudder, but also spent a lot of time on starboard (most of the race) not catching Phaedo 3 or Mighty Merloe. If it had broken the port rudder instead it would have been in real trouble. Maybe the crew backed–off a little as risk mitigation?

It does highlight the weakness of foils though as additional complexity that must be weighed against the benefits. Foils seem to have diminishing returns as boats get bigger, but the complexity issues don't. Big trimarans are already very fast, so the benefits of foils are marginal and only really available at the extreme. Similar with monohulls like Wild Oats (which removed its horizontal foil) and CQS (which hasn't shown massive speed gains, though its ÅF Offshore Race – around Gotland 2017 record shows it has promise).

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Do I think Maserati will win races by foiling? yes. Do I think they will consistantly win offshore races by foiling? I am not so sure. It will need conditions to be right and all the stars to align. I suspect we will find that the real winning proposition is a mix of foiling and non foiling, and learning when each pays and developing the package so it works equally as well in all modes will take time. While I am sure that when conditions allow full on foiling Maserati can be significantly quicker, I am pretty sure that there are significant periods in a race when the current foils hurt more than they help.

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Maserati has always been a foil assist deep water sailer (unlike flat water inshore experiments and hoppy pond toys) - but sometimes, in the right conditions, the big ocean sailing tri lifts main hull and leeward float clear .... like many numbers of tri foilers achieve and even many more scores of numbers of conventional trimarans do and have done - levering their main hulls out and leaning on their lee floats. Place a lifting foil in the lee float, as many have done and. It is no big deal; as mentioned, has been a regular occurrence since the early 1970 and 80s. We did it many times on foil assisted Newick Mokihi way back in the day, very much the same as this image of VPLP Fildou..

But (ocean racer in contrast to erratic pond toy) Maserati is pushing a little further into foil assist/flying and more power to the crew .... but she was recently soundly beaten by a decade or more old "conventional but very light" ORMA 60, the ex-Groupama 11, with "old style" foil assist in floats. There may be a message there for someone - but not holding breath.

Fildou.jpg

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Why hasn't Maserati been winning races against other trimarans? Phaedo has beaten them everytime I believe and now Mighty Merloe in the Transpac. I would have thought as a foiling tri she would win more races rather than none? Is it a crew issue? 

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1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

Why hasn't Maserati been winning races against other trimarans? Phaedo has beaten them everytime I believe and now Mighty Merloe in the Transpac. I would have thought as a foiling tri she would win more races rather than none? Is it a crew issue? 

They have had breakages, but my guess is that you cannot foil non stop on all points of sailing and in all wind strengths. When not foiling, they probably have more drag than the others. One day they will have a race where conditions are right and they will cream everybody.

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Obviously there is too much drag with that central main hull inverted T foil ... which looks very large to me in photographs. Although he who is considered a guru at Boatdesign.net will spew disagreement - reality has shown that no matter the Lord's excessive multitude of posts, that the big porcupine foiler has not lived up to hype and expectations.

But definitely, when Maser gets the exact conditions; possibly quite rare, where the boat will excel, the boat will be fast and competitive. But in the meantime, in the bulk of usual sailing conditions, the design has appeared to lag.

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They had pretty good conditions for Transpac didn't they?  Downwind and they were doing high 20's when ever I looked at the tracker which should mean they are foiling surely?  I don't know just guessing?  I know they ended up breaking the rudder but they weren't even in the lead at the point it broke were they?  I hope they get it sorted and win some races as it is a cool boat, but have to admit it has been very nice after they lost as the LorD of FoilS hasn't been around harping on incessantly (hiding in his own sorrow maybe?)

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Drowning his sorrows? Don't think so - I expect the LoRd of foiols is religiously teetotal.  But maybe a couple of bottles of Belgian beer would create a balance in his imbalanced fanaticism? Would be a relief to us all if he did so?

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On 7/11/2017 at 8:51 AM, Waynemarlow said:

Guys you really are going to have to suck up a huge amount of self inflicted pain in a pretty short period of time. Of the 3 Tri's, Maserati is very much a new concept, whereas the others have long been honed into race winning boats. That honing took many years of both design and race miles.

Now Maserati has only just started its tuning curve, give it time and some descent trouble free miles and then consider that its already nearly up to race competitive speeds. 12 months down the line it will be up there with the big boys. Will it be a consistent winner, will it be a game changer, I'm going to sit on the fence on that, but what I'm pretty sure of is that it is only going to get faster as the development curve kicks in, whereas the other two boats are probably already maxed out. 

 

You can say that again!

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On 9/29/2016 at 10:47 PM, MSA said:

Ideal for Stability, Speed, Efficiency, Weight Reduction etc etc etc

 

Superfoiler is a complete new design.

Maserati is a modified platform. One would be safe to bet the Beams and amas could not handing the increased loads of full foiling without major modification (weight increase) and that specific platform's best outcome is share the foiling load.

If they had an open cheque book to build a new Platform, I bet it wouldn't look like it does.

Riiiight-and now there is Gitana 17 and Banque Populaire- multimillion dollar projects embracing a lifting foil on the daggerboard and UptiP ama foils! And at least Gitana 17 was designed from scratch to use this foil system.

 

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Like some hilarious cartoon that should be made into a blockbuster film.

Beyond bonkers Doug, thick as large porcine defecation and with a hide so bulletproof that Kevlar would be considered paper tissue.

This is not praise - just in case you interpret it incorrectly. Which you are wont to do.

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From Team Maserati:
Maserati Multi70 is currently in Hawaii, in the Honolulu base. There is also our workshop container equipped with everything the Shore Team needs in case of interventions on the boat, also major ones.

The program for the next few weeks includes testing the rudders.

Particular tests will involve the new rudders’ configuration, which is different from the one used ’til now and involving modified positioning parameters. The changes made will be tested around the end of November in the Hawaiian waters, during training.
Everything will go back to MOD gear before casting off towards the China Sea, as the presence of many floating objects suggests the MOD configuration for the attachments as a strategy to avoid the risks of collision.

Around the end of November, Maserati Multi70 will travel from Honolulu to Okinawa, the last island of Japan.

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On 7/14/2017 at 2:55 AM, Groucho Marx said:

Maserati has always been a foil assist deep water sailer (unlike flat water inshore experiments and hoppy pond toys) - but sometimes, in the right conditions, the big ocean sailing tri lifts main hull and leeward float clear .... like many numbers of tri foilers achieve and even many more scores of numbers of conventional trimarans do and have done - levering their main hulls out and leaning on their lee floats. Place a lifting foil in the lee float, as many have done and. It is no big deal; as mentioned, has been a regular occurrence since the early 1970 and 80s. We did it many times on foil assisted Newick Mokihi way back in the day, very much the same as this image of VPLP Fildou..

But (ocean racer in contrast to erratic pond toy) Maserati is pushing a little further into foil assist/flying and more power to the crew .... but she was recently soundly beaten by a decade or more old "conventional but very light" ORMA 60, the ex-Groupama 11, with "old style" foil assist in floats. There may be a message there for someone - but not holding breath.

 

Frog Man- that is one of your most ridiculous posts ever: Maserati is a full flying foiler-NOT foil assist!!!!!! The mainfoil keeps the main hull out of the water most of the time-look at the before and after videos. 

She has had an unfortunate string of bad luck with her stb rudder foil but she won her first race against Phaedo in Malta and nearly beat Phaedo in the Carribean 600-only 12 sec behind after 600miles-and that was with 50% of her foil system non-functional!

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7 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

She has had an unfortunate string of bad luck with her stb rudder foil but she won her first race against Phaedo in Malta and nearly beat Phaedo in the Carribean 600-only 12 sec behind after 600miles-and that was with 50% of her foil system non-functional!

I know I shouldn't but I am weak willed and a glutton for punishment.

How many times do you need to be told. The only reason why Maserati won in Malta was a navigation mistake by Phaedo. Phaedo had shown they were faster throughout the race. As for the Carribeam 600, for some of the time Maserati should have been equal to Phaedo and for the rest, they should have been faster yet they finished behind. Maserati is spectacular, but it has shown the problems of foiling large ocean racing tris. Given perfect conditions, they are super fast but they need to be able to compete in all conditions and to date, over the course of a decent length race with changeable conditions, Maserati has failed to demonstrate they are quicker over the whole race than a conventional tri.

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It's absurd to draw conclusions about foiling tri's based on your own uninformed speculation when, in all three races Maserati was sailing with damage that prevented her from developing her full potential. And, by the way: a win is a win!

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

I know I shouldn't but I am weak willed and a glutton for punishment.

How many times do you need to be told. The only reason why Maserati won in Malta was a navigation mistake by Phaedo. Phaedo had shown they were faster throughout the race. As for the Carribeam 600, for some of the time Maserati should have been equal to Phaedo and for the rest, they should have been faster yet they finished behind. Maserati is spectacular, but it has shown the problems of foiling large ocean racing tris. Given perfect conditions, they are super fast but they need to be able to compete in all conditions and to date, over the course of a decent length race with changeable conditions, Maserati has failed to demonstrate they are quicker over the whole race than a conventional tri.

To be fair, Maserati was weaker in all areas than Phaedo: Budget, crew cred, nav, drilling, maintenance.  Neither race was a test of much.

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59 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

It's absurd to draw conclusions about foiling tri's based on your own uninformed speculation when, in all three races Maserati was sailing with damage that prevented her from developing her full potential. And, by the way: a win is a win!

A win may be a win, but a win like Maserati in Malta is also solid proof that your experimental boat is way slower than a stock one.

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

A win may be a win, but a win like Maserati in Malta is also solid proof that your experimental boat is way slower than a stock one.

Absolutely false. To say that is nuts when you realize the boat had only 50% of its foiling capacity after the collision on the way to the race.

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On 03/11/2017 at 10:52 PM, Doug Lord said:

Absolutely false. To say that is nuts when you realize the boat had only 50% of its foiling capacity after the collision on the way to the race.

Which at the moment proves yet again that foiling offshore is nowhere near the solution. 

Best you stick to playing with radio controlled toys on a lake. 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Which at the moment proves yet again that foiling offshore is nowhere near the solution. 

Best you stick to playing with radio controlled toys on a lake. 

Foiling is the solution to greater speed and seaworthiness -and FUN on smaller boats NOW. But until the oceans are cleaned up and/or an electronic avoidance system is developed it is a crapshoot on the ocean...... Three and a half multimillion dollar Teams feel it is the solution to big trimaran racing now but I fear they may be wrong-I hope not.

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2 hours ago, Chasm said:

Another interesting video. Giovanni played the phone joker and asked an expert. (FRA with ITA subtitles)

 

Thanks for the video-now to find a damn translation......

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Translation of Guillaume Verdiers comments at the end of the video by Dolfiman on boatdesign.net:

"We are here to test the rudders that  tends to stall, we have the phenomenon since the boat exists, and so we try to make rudders that are stronger and stiffer, and of course we try to understand why. And it is a complex situation because there is an interference between the main hull rudder and the leeward ama one and so we have made revised drawings for the next season so that the boat can be more controllable and the helm more enjoyable to steer. It is a bit intrinsic to all flying boats as the configurations are quite different for the various flight heights, it would be necessary to change the setting for each condition. If we have more control, we can go faster and it is less dangerous. One of the big works we will do is to make sure the rudder gets up, and that at least when it hits a floating object we do not completely lose the structure of the boat and the control and all that. We will improve anyway."
 
 
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A new record to beat for Giovanni Soldini and the Maserati Multi70 Team: after claiming the records for the United States’ “Gold Route” from New York to San Francisco and the “Tea Clipper Trade Route” between San Francisco and Shanghai, China, the latest record attempt follows the route of the clipper ships that at the end of the 19th Century transported their cargoes of tea from Hong Kong to London via the Cape of Good Hope.

The current record time, set in 2008 by Frenchman Lionel Lemonchois and his eight-man crew aboard the 100-foot catamaran Gitana 13, is 41 days, 21 hours, 26 minutes and 34 seconds.

Giovanni Soldini aims to attempt the record breaking run in January 2018 aboard the Maserati Multi70 trimaran along with four expert ocean racing sailors :Sébastien Audigane (FRA), Guido Broggi (ITA), Oliver Herrera (ESP) and Alex Pella (ESP).

13,000 miles, 24,000 kilometres non-stop: this is an uncommonly long route for a 70-foot multihull such as Maserati Multi70. To minimise the risk of damage, instead of sailing in foiling mode the boat will be set up in MOD configuration – although the work to develop the boat’s foiling dagger boards continues with the support of the eminent high-performance yacht designer, Guillaume Verdier.

After undergoing a series of sea trials in Hawaii, Maserati Multi70 will set off at the end of November for Okinawa, Japan. After a final transfer to Hong Kong, Soldini and his crew will be on standby to depart on the record attempt the beginning of January 2018.

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Doug why are you posting copyrighted material as your own, even to the point of using the red font you use for responding to prior posts.

From Maserati.com

COPYRIGHT

© Copyright, Maserati S.p.A., Modena, Italy. All rights reserved. The text, pictures, video files, audio files and artwork on the Maserati websites are all subject to copyright and other intellectual property protection. The websites may also contain images to which copyright is attributable to third parties.
Reproduction or transmission, in whole or in part, of any material contained within the site is prohibited without the express prior written permission of Maserati S.p.A., Viale Ciro Menotti 322, 41100 MODENA, Italy, and in that case under the express condition that the source of the material is clearly stated.
Modification or redistribution of any such material to third parties in any form or by any means is also forbidden. 

 

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From Team Maserati:
On Sunday November 26th Giovanni Soldini and the Maserati Multi70’s Team left Honolulu towards Japan (around 4000 nm of crossing), after completing the work aboard Maserati Multi70 and performing the last tests with designer Guillaume Verdier.
 
The trimaran is currently in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, at 20° North and 178° East and a few hours ago it passed the International Date Line.
 
“Maserati is in great shape and she’s diving off the waves at high speed – Soldini says – We’re sailing with full jennaker and mainsail at 25-30 knots. Aboard everything is fine, last night Francesco cooked lentils and bacon for everyone… it’s not quite an equatorial dish but all the crew really appreciated it”.
 
The Maserati Multi70’s Team is getting ready to face the last part of the journey to Japan. The trimaran will leave the trade winds and enter an area of turbulence with more complex weather conditions. The cold fronts usually pass by the Japanese islands and flow towards the Northern Pacific Ocean. The strong cold air flows behind them create a North-North West wind that will need to be managed smartly by the Team.
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19 hours ago, Doug Lord said:
From Team Maserati:
On Sunday November 26th Giovanni Soldini and the Maserati Multi70’s Team left Honolulu towards Japan (around 4000 nm of crossing), after completing the work aboard Maserati Multi70 and performing the last tests with designer Guillaume Verdier.
 
The trimaran is currently in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, at 20° North and 178° East and a few hours ago it passed the International Date Line.
 
“Maserati is in great shape and she’s diving off the waves at high speed – Soldini says – We’re sailing with full jennaker and mainsail at 25-30 knots. Aboard everything is fine, last night Francesco cooked lentils and bacon for everyone… it’s not quite an equatorial dish but all the crew really appreciated it”.
 
The Maserati Multi70’s Team is getting ready to face the last part of the journey to Japan. The trimaran will leave the trade winds and enter an area of turbulence with more complex weather conditions. The cold fronts usually pass by the Japanese islands and flow towards the Northern Pacific Ocean. The strong cold air flows behind them create a North-North West wind that will need to be managed smartly by the Team.

Surprised that you still care about Maserati now that they've decided that foils are a no-go on the 70..

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You got it 100% wrong:   To minimise the risk of damage, instead of sailing in foiling mode the boat will be set up in MOD configuration – although the work to develop the boat’s foiling dagger boards continues with the support of the eminent high-performance yacht designer, Guillaume Verdier.... Team Maserati

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So a foiling MOD 70 is the future, but you can't actually do it because you might break...huge success if you ask me. 

I think we're all sick of the "In certain conditions foils are much faster rhetoric", it doesn't matter how much faster foils are in a perfect scenario because ocean racing is never perfect! Something that's faster 25% of the time and slower 75% of the time is still going to lose.. Gitana in the TJV for ex..

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A working , perfect, reliable 70'(or 100') trimaran foiler doesn't just appear magically-it has to be developed over time with tons of work. If you write off the whole concept because of a few problems you are incredibly shortsighted-and the world and future are damn lucky that people like you aren't in charge of these extraordinary projects.

picture by Gulain Grenier:

Maserati uptip foil-Gulain Grenier.jpg

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I’m not writing off the whole concept Dougie. What I am writing off is any claim that ocean foiling is superior at the moment, which it is not. You claiming otherwise is a failure to accept  the results from ANY race Maserati or Gitana has done. 

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16 minutes ago, ASP said:

I’m not writing off the whole concept Dougie. What I am writing off is any claim that ocean foiling is superior at the moment, which it is not. You claiming otherwise is a failure to accept  the results from ANY race Maserati or Gitana has done. 

asp, that's just nutty...........

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