• Announcements

    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
Wess

Metal Boats

3,415 posts in this topic

So the origami thread seems to have drifted away from metal boats to put it as politely as possible. But that was topic that held some interest for me (and maybe others) who would like to cruise a bit off the beaten path.

 

So today at the Annapolis boat show we spent some time looking over the Garcia and Allures lines; from 52 to 45 to 39. Aluminum. Expedition to RTW. Not a cocktail dock/lake cruising boat but very nicely finished as well as being practical and sturdy.

 

Color my wife and I impressed. Very impressed.

 

If going back to a monohull it was likely at Outbound. Now we would have to think hard. Very very hard.

 

Of course we may well stick to our multi roots and go down the Outremer (or similar) path which is of course not metal. But we were surprised that the same parent company (Grand Large) owns both Outremer (as well as Gunboat now) in addition to Allures and Garcia. Seems we like the way these french folks think... monohull or multihull!!

 

Anybody have any experience w Allures or Garcia?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a construction thread for a Bestevaer 49ST over on Cruisers Forum. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/bestevaer-49st-147499.html

 

Workmanship is incredible. They do compound curved hull plating with no paint or filler.

 

Not sure how the price of this 'semi custom' boat compares to something that is floating at a dock, but it might be worth a look. The shipyard is very open to the wishes of the owners and seem to be able to do anything that is requested.

 

Steve

 

File Photo.

bestevaer_49_st.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Australians have a love affair with "tiniest" and there are any number of manufacturers who build, mostly dinghies and power craft including cats. We also have one of the larges cat builders building some of the largest aluminium cats in the world:

http://www.incat.com.au

I also spent thirty odd years living in the UK and Guernsey, and saw a lot of French aluminium boats. The aluminium yachts were invariably serious cruisers. One of the biggest and longest established builders is ALUBAT:

http://www.alubat.com/?lang=en

They are nearly all chined and flat bottomed, which seems the way to go these days, mono or multi anyway, and money saved using chined or sharpie construction should pay for a good naval architect or builder to design one to your exact requirements.

The bigger the boat the more it will make sense to do it in aluminium.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good one....

 

I was always impressed by the amount of aluminium used in marinas, especially in France...... Was it a mono that collided with one and they couldn't get it unstuck, so they just angle ground off the redundant bits and turned into a tri?????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He got inspired by Tabarly and his pen duick IV :

 

b02454_f2b4780511764749881ec77f1c68a86a.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...anybody ever looked at the pricetags on Garcia, Allures or Bestaevers???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. The Garcia is truly expedition grade and the Allures just a slight step down. The pricing is similar to an Outbound of similar size which is a serious cruising design in glass. This is what got our immediate attention. Don't know Bestaevers, but with Allures and Garcia it seemed you could have a well designed cruising yacht, very nicely finished, WITH the added security of aluminum construction, at the same budget as the glass boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I admired this salty and purposeful Bestaever which rafted up next to us at the fuel dock in Virgin Gorda.

 

 

Sorry. Can't seem to embed this Google photos link correctly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The photos of the boat under sail are impressive. Seems rather narrow for its length though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There used to be a number of quality alu builders in the US. I worked with several of them. The only one I know today is Jim Betts and he hasn't built an alu boat in years. I have a client now exploring alu for hus next boat. There are a number of goof alu fish boat builders in my area but they do not build to yacht quality like you see in those Euro boats. A 32' Bristol Bay gill netter will run you more than $600,000.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Wess

 

A metal boat can be many things.

 

It can be a heavy steel boat built in a back garden

 

3.jpg

 

It can be a flat bottom aluminium boat like an ovni

 

OVNI%20395%202.jpg

 

It can be one with a stub keel like a Boreal :

 

boreal44_JSB3_echouage.jpg

 

It can be something luxurious by Garcia

 

P-STP-XAV-01102009-0249_-_Copie_13221315

 

Or something fast like a cigale :

 

cigale-14-10.jpg

 

There are also twin keels, ice proof boats etc...

 

Do you know what you are after ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a construction thread for a Bestevaer 49ST over on Cruisers Forum. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/bestevaer-49st-147499.html

 

Workmanship is incredible. They do compound curved hull plating with no paint or filler.

 

Not sure how the price of this 'semi custom' boat compares to something that is floating at a dock, but it might be worth a look. The shipyard is very open to the wishes of the owners and seem to be able to do anything that is requested.

 

Steve

 

File Photo.

bestevaer_49_st.jpg

 

My husband and I are the lucky cruisers who have commissioned the build of this new Bestevaer :). Same length as the one in Steve's photo, but with a longer pilothouse and an arch for solar panels and dinghy storage.

 

While no construction material is perfect, having lived and cruised on an aluminium yacht essentially full time for the last nine years, we are convinced aluminium is the most practical boat building material for a cruising yacht.

 

Here is some aluminium boat porn taken just before our new hull was recently flipped:

 

image_zpshwblvauz.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or something classy like a Hutting, bet almost nobody ever heard of this small yard. They have enough Dutch and German costumers to even bother with an English website. http://www.hutting-yachts.nl/nl/

Lots of options, everyone is different.

 

Hutting-49-op-zee.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's pronounced "Al-LU-min-ium"

Y'know, the guy who is actually credited with the discovery of Al called it "aluminum".

 

He was British.

 

Some other feebs decided to call it "aluminium."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It's pronounced "Al-LU-min-ium"

Y'know, the guy who is actually credited with the discovery of Al called it "aluminum".

 

He was British.

 

Some other feebs decided to call it "aluminium."

 

 

It's so disappointing to us English English-language snobs that so many American usages turn out to be more historically accurate.

 

We in Britainland turn out to be the whores that modernise and barbarize spellings. Goes for pronucniation as well, like boo-ees and 'erbs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It's pronounced "Al-LU-min-ium"

 

Y'know, the guy who is actually credited with the discovery of Al called it "aluminum".

 

He was British.

 

Some other feebs decided to call it "aluminium."

He was famous for not being able to make up his mind :). "Alumium" was what he actually first called it.

 

SWL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@LeoV and seaworthy lass, the Dutch deinitely know how to build steel and aluminium boats... and they sail them. Here in Northern Brittany we regularly see a Dutch couple sailing West on what looks like a 15 tons boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only seen one Bestavaer in the flesh, a fiftyish footer visited Hobart last year.

 

It was one of those boats that looks even better in 3D than on the page, like Bob's boats do.

 

If I had one it would go straight to the pool room ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bestaever I tried to post earlier:

 

KwrMc50adscVm6BpRq5qtGGtFlKOa6sTp57iHUKD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

It's pronounced "Al-LU-min-ium"

Y'know, the guy who is actually credited with the discovery of Al called it "aluminum".

 

He was British.

 

Some other feebs decided to call it "aluminium."

It's so disappointing to us English English-language snobs that so many American usages turn out to be more historically accurate.

 

We in Britainland turn out to be the whores that modernise and barbarize spellings. Goes for pronucniation as well, like boo-ees and 'erbs.

Me Ed, since you speak it like a native you are granted liberty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

There is a construction thread for a Bestevaer 49ST over on Cruisers Forum. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/bestevaer-49st-147499.html

 

Workmanship is incredible. They do compound curved hull plating with no paint or filler.

 

Not sure how the price of this 'semi custom' boat compares to something that is floating at a dock, but it might be worth a look. The shipyard is very open to the wishes of the owners and seem to be able to do anything that is requested.

 

Steve

 

File Photo.

bestevaer_49_st.jpg

 

My husband and I are the lucky cruisers who have commissioned the build of this new Bestevaer :). Same length as the one in Steve's photo, but with a longer pilothouse and an arch for solar panels and dinghy storage.

 

While no construction material is perfect, having lived and cruised on an aluminium yacht essentially full time for the last nine years, we are convinced aluminium is the most practical boat building material for a cruising yacht.

 

Here is some aluminium boat porn taken just before our new hull was recently flipped:

 

image_zpshwblvauz.jpeg

Pretty boat Lass, congratulations!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There used to be a number of quality alu builders in the US. I worked with several of them. The only one I know today is Jim Betts and he hasn't built an alu boat in years. I have a client now exploring alu for hus next boat. There are a number of goof alu fish boat builders in my area but they do not build to yacht quality like you see in those Euro boats. A 32' Bristol Bay gill netter will run you more than $600,000.

Bob, we build in FRP, Steel and Al. We currently have a 175 ft Al/FRP yacht under construction. Wish we did sailboats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@LeoV and seaworthy lass, the Dutch deinitely know how to build steel and aluminium boats... and they sail them. Here in Northern Brittany we regularly see a Dutch couple sailing West on what looks like a 15 tons boat.

 

You can even see the same boat a few years apart, they tend to do an extensive Atlantic or Med round trip, get sold, and circle starts all over again.

 

You can describe the design succes to this marketing talk of hte yard:

The Bestevaer 53ST is a fine example of how ocean and racing sailor Dykstra has designed and built his own ideal yacht; a deep and safe cockpit, a pilot house to shelter and stay dry when sailing in bad weather conditions, lines leading to the cockpit and a long water line and deep keel for excellent sailing performance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joe:

You know I am aware of that. What I had in mind by my comments were yards that built sailing yachts. This would include yards like: Paul Luke, Minnefords, Derektors, Palmer-Johnson, Eichenlaub, Stephens, Betts to name a few. (please excuse my spelling) I'm sure there must have been many more yards actively building in alu during the 60's. You could add Kanter to the list and Brian Riley the Kiwi who worked with Jespersen to build YONI. I can't think of anyone today in North America building alu sailing yachts under 80'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Other than cost of materials is the barrier to Aluminum boats the cost of labor ?

 

I can imagine getting that much welding done with inert gas blanketing can not be cheap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lioness:

That could be it but I also think it's just lack of demand for metal boats today. I can;t understand why they are so popular in Europe and not at all popular here. Maybe we just don;t have the yards left to produce them, at that quality today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe we need to check back in on this thread in 50 years.

 

I did some redesign work on the Boeing corporate yacht DAEDALUS It was a 50 year old 100' Rhodes design built by Abeking and Rasmussen in alu. There were some major plating problems with that hull that had to be repaired. As one yard worker told me, "You could shove a screw driver through the hull."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lioness:

That could be it but I also think it's just lack of demand for metal boats today. I can;t understand why they are so popular in Europe and not at all popular here. Maybe we just don;t have the yards left to produce them, at that quality today.

We have a friend with a Garcia Passoa. It's nice boat, that he picked up in Honolulu and single hands in the Transpac with returns via Ak. With EPA and CA environmental his bottom jobs are a real work, and electrolysis a constant concern.

 

Fortunately he's a PhD retired physicist with a metal shop in his condo's garage. Made a custom panel where he switched 12v & ground on double pole breakers for each circuit.

 

Being able to scab fittings on where ever is handy though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Wess

 

A metal boat can be many things.

 

It can be a heavy steel boat built in a back garden

 

It can be a flat bottom aluminium boat like an ovni

 

It can be one with a stub keel like a Boreal :

 

It can be something luxurious by Garcia

 

Or something fast like a cigale :

 

There are also twin keels, ice proof boats etc...

 

Do you know what you are after ?

 

Yes and after careful consideration its likely to be an Outremer 45. We were very seriously considering going back to a monohull (Outbound 46) and quite accidentally ran into the Allures and Garcia line at the Annapolis show being represented (very well) by some knowledgeable folks from Swiftsure Yachts.

 

When we were doing serious cruising decades ago one did not see aluminum boats. Apparently they are now quite popular in Europe but they were a blind spot for us.

 

We were very pleasantly surprised you could get a well designed, built and fitted-out aluminum boat (such as Allures or Garcia) for about the same price as an Outbound (an equally serious blue water glass boat in our opinion and at the top of our list if we were going back to a monohull).

 

Hats of to the Swiftsure folks as well. They are on the wrong coast for us but it turn out they represent every line of boat we are serious about. We chewed their ears off and listened carefully to their thoughts and thank them for their time.

 

Bottom line... if you are interested in a blue water monohull go talk to Swiftsure if you are on the west coast and check out what is available in metal wherever you are! Really got my eyes opened.

 

Oh and Lass... nice boat you have and are building!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lass: That is beautiful.

 

@LeoV and seaworthy lass, the Dutch deinitely know how to build steel and aluminium boats... and they sail them.

 

Pretty boat Lass, congratulations!

 

Oh and Lass... nice boat you have and are building!

Thanks for the compliments guys.

Building this boat is having a longstanding dream fulfilled. I am still pinching myself that this is for real :).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Swiftsure just sold a 45' alu boat of mine. It has not gone through survey yet. But I will hear from the owner when it does. It is a custom built alu version of the Norseman 447. It is truly an amazing boat built in a barn by a farmer in Oregon. Side by side with a production grp Norseman you would have to look very hard to see any difference.

 

I look at those beautiful Bestevaers and I wonder if their popularity is not a reaction to the current "modern" styling we see in so many Euro production models. The Bestevaers could not be more different and have a quasi traditional look to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bestaever I tried to post earlier:

 

KwrMc50adscVm6BpRq5qtGGtFlKOa6sTp57iHUKD

Grey Dawn, I think this is the first 45 footer KM built, initially called Africa. It is the only one with a doghouse instead of a pilothouse, so it makes the boat distinctive. It was built as a "daysailer" for a couple progressively downsizing from two larger Bestevaers. Not being overly tall, they commisioned less head room. The original colour scheme was more sedate with a black stripe instead of the lime green.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lass, the boat is certainly distinctive and I think the color scheme fits its purposeful nature. We were moored near it overnight making it easy to admire and they happened to raft up to us at the fuel dock the next morning. I had a nice chat with the owner. I think he was British. They had recently sailed over from Europe with a sea captain so the boat is no longer a daysailer. I seem to recall discussing Dykstra with the owner so this may have been a custom design. They were cruising the Caribbean and their plans were to cruise the Pacific Northwest afterward. It may be that someone on the forum has seen them there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

@LeoV and seaworthy lass, the Dutch deinitely know how to build steel and aluminium boats... and they sail them. Here in Northern Brittany we regularly see a Dutch couple sailing West on what looks like a 15 tons boat.

 

You can even see the same boat a few years apart, they tend to do an extensive Atlantic or Med round trip, get sold, and circle starts all over again.

 

You can describe the design succes to this marketing talk of hte yard:

The Bestevaer 53ST is a fine example of how ocean and racing sailor Dykstra has designed and built his own ideal yacht; a deep and safe cockpit, a pilot house to shelter and stay dry when sailing in bad weather conditions, lines leading to the cockpit and a long water line and deep keel for excellent sailing performance.

 

 

I think that at least some of the boats I have seen were one off, I weould imagine heavier than the Bestevaer.

 

These Bestevaer are really interesting, I don't think that a couple going for a long voyage can expect more from a boat. The only aspect, I am not sure about is the lack of access to the sea. That can be a safety feature the day you are in trouble with somebody overboard or with a crab pot rope to cut and it is a comfort thing when you need to climb aboard from the dinghy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We were very pleasantly surprised you could get a well designed, built and fitted-out aluminum boat (such as Allures or Garcia) for about the same price as an Outbound (an equally serious blue water glass boat in our opinion and at the top of our list if we were going back to a monohull).

Probably glass isn't that much more economical for small series as the tooling is so expensive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

We were very pleasantly surprised you could get a well designed, built and fitted-out aluminum boat (such as Allures or Garcia) for about the same price as an Outbound (an equally serious blue water glass boat in our opinion and at the top of our list if we were going back to a monohull).

Probably glass isn't that much more economical for small series as the tooling is so expensive.

There's no reason to do extravagant molds for low production volume.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am very fond of this type of boats. They certainly have the "Look" and with the metal construction they exult strength and purpose.

post-32003-0-48286300-1475953404_thumb.jpg The 40' 12M.

post-32003-0-09995300-1475953491_thumb.jpgpost-32003-0-61182700-1475953552_thumb.jpg 16M. version.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

YMT: Very nice but I am not keen on the "reversed" windshield and I don't care what it accomplishes. It's like a small rock in the toe of your Ferragamo's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These Bestevaer are really interesting, I don't think that a couple going for a long voyage can expect more from a boat. The only aspect, I am not sure about is the lack of access to the sea. That can be a safety feature the day you are in trouble with somebody overboard or with a crab pot rope to cut and it is a comfort thing when you need to climb aboard from the dinghy.

We have a fold down swimming platform (modelled on several other Bestevaers). I am not sure how much use it would be in rough weather with a man overboard situation, but it will be very appreciated when using a dinghy, especially when loading supplies.

 

The stern has just been cut out for it:

 

IMG_0020_zpsatqynnu5.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

YMT: Very nice but I am not keen on the "reversed" windshield and I don't care what it accomplishes. It's like a small rock in the toe of your Ferragamo's.

 

Like you would say: "Owner's choice".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Three of these were on Fowey in May when I was there. Extraordinary boats. I dream of having something similar to go back and forth to Newfoundland when I'm old. I'm wondering what the cost would be of something like Beth and Evan's Hawke...having an already proven hull design (Van de Stadt or similar) fabricated in aluminum and doing all of the interior fitting-out yourself?

 

That might be a project worth spending a few years on.

 

post-104690-0-78639800-1475955641_thumb.jpg

post-104690-0-99450000-1475955669_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First aluminum yacht...Gulvain, designed by Laurent Giles and launched in 1949. Flush riveted. The boat was in Fl for several decades. It was dismasted on the first day of St Pete-Isla Mujeres Race, late 70s? Then languished at St Pete Muni dock for a decade, with no maintenance. It may have sunk at some point. In late 80s the boat was purchased by an owner with funds for a restoration, project was managed by O H Rodgers. Hull playing near bottom was replaced, and IIRC a fair portion of keelson was badly corroded and replaced. New interior, rig (12' taller), power, electrincs, etc. no expense spared.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1949/Sussex-Shipbuilding-Laurent-Giles-Design-104-2167110/France#.V_lVLor3aJJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

These Bestevaer are really interesting, I don't think that a couple going for a long voyage can expect more from a boat. The only aspect, I am not sure about is the lack of access to the sea. That can be a safety feature the day you are in trouble with somebody overboard or with a crab pot rope to cut and it is a comfort thing when you need to climb aboard from the dinghy.

We have a fold down swimming platform (modelled on several other Bestevaers). I am not sure how much use it would be in rough weather with a man overboard situation, but it will be very appreciated when using a dinghy, especially when loading supplies.

 

The stern has just been cut out for it:

 

IMG_0020_zpsatqynnu5.jpg

 

 

That should work fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Three of these were on Fowey in May when I was there. Extraordinary boats. I dream of having something similar to go back and forth to Newfoundland when I'm old. I'm wondering what the cost would be of something like Beth and Evan's Hawke...having an already proven hull design (Van de Stadt or similar) fabricated in aluminum and doing all of the interior fitting-out yourself?

So they travel in packs now :)

 

Your idea is the same as buying an older second hand one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

We were very pleasantly surprised you could get a well designed, built and fitted-out aluminum boat (such as Allures or Garcia) for about the same price as an Outbound (an equally serious blue water glass boat in our opinion and at the top of our list if we were going back to a monohull).

Probably glass isn't that much more economical for small series as the tooling is so expensive.

There's no reason to do extravagant molds for low production volume.

 

But even then you spend money not directly on the build. And it limits you. Building without moulds make you way more flexible.

And you must own a lot of land that is cheap, to store moulds. Like Standfast had in Breskens, a real spooky graveyard...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few years ago there was listing for an aluminum life boat on sailboatlistings.com that had been a test boat for the Navy. I seem to remember it had been purposely sunk and left on the bottom for number of years. It had some historical value and still looked in pretty good shape.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a construction thread for a Bestevaer 49ST over on Cruisers Forum. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/bestevaer-49st-147499.html

 

Workmanship is incredible. They do compound curved hull plating with no paint or filler.

 

Not sure how the price of this 'semi custom' boat compares to something that is floating at a dock, but it might be worth a look. The shipyard is very open to the wishes of the owners and seem to be able to do anything that is requested.

 

Steve

 

File Photo.

bestevaer_49_st.jpg

 

Looks good! Nice wide side decks, nice bulwark and a boarding ladder which is easily accessible from the water. Comfy looking wheelhouse, with good visibility.

Bare aluminium is nice in cold latittudes, but in the tropics it gets hot enough to burn the soles off your feet. It should be painted but fortunately, on aluminium, that paint is only cosmetic . Bruce Cope of Cope Aluminium Yachts, told me that the only sure way he found to get paint to stick to aluminium ,was a light sandblasting. He tried etch primer ,but the primer was softer than the epoxy he put over it , making it chip easily. He had better luck with epoxy on sandblasted aluminium with no primer of any kind.

There is a lynch mob of plastic boat advocates here, led by Perry , determined to sabotage all info exchange on metal boats. Just a matter of time before they show up on this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

We were very pleasantly surprised you could get a well designed, built and fitted-out aluminum boat (such as Allures or Garcia) for about the same price as an Outbound (an equally serious blue water glass boat in our opinion and at the top of our list if we were going back to a monohull).

Probably glass isn't that much more economical for small series as the tooling is so expensive.

There's no reason to do extravagant molds for low production volume.

Definitely not! Origami construction eliminates all such molds, etc .Van de Stadt minimizes them , as does most modernizing of metal boat construction methods. Best avoid the"Imitation wooden boat building" methods, to take full advantage of the properties of the material.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few years ago there was listing for an aluminum life boat on sailboatlistings.com that had been a test boat for the Navy. I seem to remember it had been purposely sunk and left on the bottom for number of years. It had some historical value and still looked in pretty good shape.

At Fanning Island they are sill using a riveted aluminium lifeboat from the 50s in excellent shape, mostly due to lack of antifouling or anything electrical near by.

Last summer I saw an aluminium Warram cat 35 years old , in excellent condition . It had no paint of any kind ,above the water or below. The owner found it simple and quick to simply beach her and scrape her from time to time. She had been hit by a big seiner ,and had a bit of buckled plate near the bow of one float, but no leaks, and was ignoring that to continue cruising.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First aluminum yacht...Gulvain, designed by Laurent Giles and launched in 1949. Flush riveted. The boat was in Fl for several decades. It was dismasted on the first day of St Pete-Isla Mujeres Race, late 70s? Then languished at St Pete Muni dock for a decade, with no maintenance. It may have sunk at some point. In late 80s the boat was purchased by an owner with funds for a restoration, project was managed by O H Rodgers. Hull playing near bottom was replaced, and IIRC a fair portion of keelson was badly corroded and replaced. New interior, rig (12' taller), power, electrincs, etc. no expense spared.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1949/Sussex-Shipbuilding-Laurent-Giles-Design-104-2167110/France#.V_lVLor3aJJ

 

In 1893, Captain Nathaniel herreshoff designed his first America's Cup defender, VIGILANT, for the C. Oliver Iselin Syndicate. She was a 124' centerboard sloop with a hollow board of bronze. DEFENDER was a 123' keel sloop with light-weight, sophisticated construction of aluminum and bronze plating on steel framing. http://www.russkramer.com/Yacht-Defender-Americas-Cup-1895.html

 

I'm not sure how may AC boats were built with a combination of aluminum and bronze plating. At least one corroded so badly that it was broken up some months after launching.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Other than cost of materials is the barrier to Aluminum boats the cost of labor ?

 

I can imagine getting that much welding done with inert gas blanketing can not be cheap.

When the steel for my 36 footer was around $6K the aluminium was $20K. That is before you price in the welding. Building a steel boat needs no cover ,and can easily be built outside, as were most of the several dozen I have built. That can save a fortune on rent.

A friend on Lasqueti built his aluminium boat outside , but he had to wait for perfect ,flat calm , dry conditions to do his welding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Other than cost of materials is the barrier to Aluminum boats the cost of labor ?

 

I can imagine getting that much welding done with inert gas blanketing can not be cheap.

Not if you have a farm full of young lasses wielding blow torches.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=91813&page=8#entry5465291

 

In case you didn't get the reference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

These Bestevaer are really interesting, I don't think that a couple going for a long voyage can expect more from a boat. The only aspect, I am not sure about is the lack of access to the sea. That can be a safety feature the day you are in trouble with somebody overboard or with a crab pot rope to cut and it is a comfort thing when you need to climb aboard from the dinghy.

We have a fold down swimming platform (modelled on several other Bestevaers). I am not sure how much use it would be in rough weather with a man overboard situation, but it will be very appreciated when using a dinghy, especially when loading supplies.

 

The stern has just been cut out for it:

 

IMG_0020_zpsatqynnu5.jpg

 

 

That should work fine.

In a swell ,a solid boarding ladder can beat the hell out of the victim in the water. A weighted rope ladder would be safer.

Those hollow cockpit coamings are great on aluminium or plastic , but a disaster on steel, where easy access to all corners for maintenance is critical.

With simply extending the hull plate up to become bulwarks, like that, I can't understand why anyone would add on a bulwark later, drastically increasing the building and welding time , and the potential for welding distortion.

 

John Dearborn in Gibsons BC builds excellent , round bilged aluminium boats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

YMT: Very nice but I am not keen on the "reversed" windshield and I don't care what it accomplishes. It's like a small rock in the toe of your Ferragamo's.

Not everyone likes the fragile , "fresh out of a blister pack from London Drugs" look, or the "Volkswagon beetle" look, on a pilot house.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

First aluminum yacht...Gulvain, designed by Laurent Giles and launched in 1949. Flush riveted. The boat was in Fl for several decades. It was dismasted on the first day of St Pete-Isla Mujeres Race, late 70s? Then languished at St Pete Muni dock for a decade, with no maintenance. It may have sunk at some point. In late 80s the boat was purchased by an owner with funds for a restoration, project was managed by O H Rodgers. Hull playing near bottom was replaced, and IIRC a fair portion of keelson was badly corroded and replaced. New interior, rig (12' taller), power, electrincs, etc. no expense spared.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1949/Sussex-Shipbuilding-Laurent-Giles-Design-104-2167110/France#.V_lVLor3aJJ

 

In 1893, Captain Nathaniel herreshoff designed his first America's Cup defender, VIGILANT, for the C. Oliver Iselin Syndicate. She was a 124' centerboard sloop with a hollow board of bronze. DEFENDER was a 123' keel sloop with light-weight, sophisticated construction of aluminum and bronze plating on steel framing. http://www.russkramer.com/Yacht-Defender-Americas-Cup-1895.html

 

I'm not sure how may AC boats were built with a combination of aluminum and bronze plating. At least one corroded so badly that it was broken up some months after launching.

 

I've read reports of being able to hear that boat sizzling away, eating herself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Best avoid the"Imitation wooden boat building" methods, to take full advantage of the properties of the material.

 

 

William Atkin would agree. In his book "The Book of Boats" there is a little essay on building small boats of steel. It's illustrated with drawings for a 19'8" v-bottom sloop. LWL 17'6", Displacement 4000lbs and sail area 194.4 sq ft for an SA/D of about nothing.

 

In his essay, he counts up the number of wooden parts to be cut and shaped in a comparable wooden boat: 3,495. For the steel boat: 48.

 

The essay was awarded First Prize on the subject of Pleasure Watercraft by the James. F. Lincoln Arc Welding Foundation of Cleveland, Ohio.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

We were very pleasantly surprised you could get a well designed, built and fitted-out aluminum boat (such as Allures or Garcia) for about the same price as an Outbound (an equally serious blue water glass boat in our opinion and at the top of our list if we were going back to a monohull).

Probably glass isn't that much more economical for small series as the tooling is so expensive.

With the market flooded with plastic boats of every shape and persuasion, it makes no sense to build one from scratch, or pay someone exorbitant rates to design one .

if one's heart and logic is set on metal, there are far fewer options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I need to remind some people here that I really like aluminum boats.

Let me say that again. I really would prefer this thread not be turned into a BS shit fight.

So, for the record my favorite material to work with is CF and my second favorite material is alu.

Here are some examples of my alu boats and I'm sure most f you have seen them already. But some people have very short attention spans.

 

STEPHALA now MARLIN a realkly nive alu boat built in Holland.

stepalahpic1010_zps57e0d7ae.jpg

 

YONI built by Jespersen in B.C.

Yoni-stb-1-123-thumb-400x286-369_zps5d08

 

ILLUSION built in alu by Howdy Bailey

illusion_zpsvyrz2aoo.jpg

 

WHITE EAGLE built by Jim Betts.

Wildhorsesanchored_zpsc7f61b73.jpg

I have several more alu boats but I have not had the photos scanned yet. If anyone thinks I don;t like aluminum boats this group of beauties should be enough to prove they are very wrong.

How can you not love WILD HORSES? Alu hull with composite/CF deck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lioness:

That could be it but I also think it's just lack of demand for metal boats today. I can;t understand why they are so popular in Europe and not at all popular here. Maybe we just don;t have the yards left to produce them, at that quality today.

Mainly because plastic has been so highly promoted this side of the pond , and metal hasn't . Maybe it is the rougher conditions that side of the pond. With such high traffic levels there, a metal boat has a much better chance of surviving a collision than plastic. A plastic boat was wrecked here in the last couple of days, in conditions which wouldn't have seriously damaged a metal boat. When they were trying to haul it out last night , everyone agreed when I said "It should have been metal." It had huge holes in it, in a semi sheltered Comox harbour, which would have only been dents,no leaks, had she been metal.

A steel boat ran aground here, and was aground for about a month of SE gales ,with nothing but chipped paint for damage.

Maybe with higher oil prices in Europe, resin costs are also much higher there.

Among European offshore cruisers in the South Pacific , metal often outnumbers plastic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of my very favorite alu boats is PANOPE's boat sitting here in front of my shack. I had zero to do with the design but I sure admire the boat. He says he's contemplating some "remodeling". I can't wait to see the results.

Steve3_zps8c844efa.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I need to remind some people here that I really like aluminum boats.

Let me say that again. I really would prefer this thread not be turned into a BS shit fight.

So, for the record my favorite material to work with is CF and my second favorite material is alu.

Here are some examples of my alu boats and I'm sure most f you have seen them already. But some people have very short attention spans.

 

STEPHALA now MARLIN a realkly nive alu boat built in Holland.

stepalahpic1010_zps57e0d7ae.jpg

 

YONI built by Jespersen in B.C.

Yoni-stb-1-123-thumb-400x286-369_zps5d08

 

ILLUSION built in alu by Howdy Bailey

illusion_zpsvyrz2aoo.jpg

 

WHITE EAGLE built by Jim Betts.

Wildhorsesanchored_zpsc7f61b73.jpg

I have several more alu boats but I have not had the photos scanned yet. If anyone thinks I don;t like aluminum boats this group of beauties should be enough to prove they are very wrong.

How can you not love WILD HORSES? Alu hull with composite/CF deck.

What is the point of the CF deck, over aluminium, eliminating the advantage of the use of the best bedding compound ever invented, welding?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Best avoid the"Imitation wooden boat building" methods, to take full advantage of the properties of the material.

 

 

William Atkin would agree. In his book "The Book of Boats" there is a little essay on building small boats of steel. It's illustrated with drawings for a 19'8" v-bottom sloop. LWL 17'6", Displacement 4000lbs and sail area 194.4 sq ft for an SA/D of about nothing.

 

In his essay, he counts up the number of wooden parts to be cut and shaped in a comparable wooden boat: 3,495. For the steel boat: 48.

 

The essay was awarded First Prize on the subject of Pleasure Watercraft by the James. F. Lincoln Arc Welding Foundation of Cleveland, Ohio.

The fewer the metal parts used to build a metal boat , especially the plating, the fairer it will be. That is why I like the ability to use one 8 ft by 36 ft plate per side for the hull ,which origami lets me do.

 

Strongall builds some pretty good aluminium boats ,with more more modern methods.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

There is a construction thread for a Bestevaer 49ST over on Cruisers Forum. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/bestevaer-49st-147499.html

 

Workmanship is incredible. They do compound curved hull plating with no paint or filler.

 

Not sure how the price of this 'semi custom' boat compares to something that is floating at a dock, but it might be worth a look. The shipyard is very open to the wishes of the owners and seem to be able to do anything that is requested.

 

Steve

 

File Photo.

bestevaer_49_st.jpg

 

Looks good! Nice wide side decks, nice bulwark and a boarding ladder which is easily accessible from the water. Comfy looking wheelhouse, with good visibility.

Bare aluminium is nice in cold latittudes, but in the tropics it gets hot enough to burn the soles off your feet. It should be painted but fortunately, on aluminium, that paint is only cosmetic . Bruce Cope of Cope Aluminium Yachts, told me that the only sure way he found to get paint to stick to aluminium ,was a light sandblasting. He tried etch primer ,but the primer was softer than the epoxy he put over it , making it chip easily. He had better luck with epoxy on sandblasted aluminium with no primer of any kind.

There is a lynch mob of plastic boat advocates here, led by Perry , determined to sabotage all info exchange on metal boats. Just a matter of time before they show up on this thread.

Do you mean the same Bob Perry that has already posted favorably about metal boats in this thread?

 

Maybe you are talking about the Bob Perry that has helped and encouraged me personally with my metal boat rebuild?

 

Or perhaps you are thinking of the Bob Perry that spent may hours (for free) mentoring me with a clean sheet design (not yet built) of a metal boat?

 

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Ok, I need to remind some people here that I really like aluminum boats.

Let me say that again. I really would prefer this thread not be turned into a BS shit fight.

So, for the record my favorite material to work with is CF and my second favorite material is alu.

Here are some examples of my alu boats and I'm sure most f you have seen them already. But some people have very short attention spans.

 

STEPHALA now MARLIN a realkly nive alu boat built in Holland.

stepalahpic1010_zps57e0d7ae.jpg

 

YONI built by Jespersen in B.C.

Yoni-stb-1-123-thumb-400x286-369_zps5d08

 

ILLUSION built in alu by Howdy Bailey

illusion_zpsvyrz2aoo.jpg

 

WHITE EAGLE built by Jim Betts.

Wildhorsesanchored_zpsc7f61b73.jpg

I have several more alu boats but I have not had the photos scanned yet. If anyone thinks I don;t like aluminum boats this group of beauties should be enough to prove they are very wrong.

How can you not love WILD HORSES? Alu hull with composite/CF deck.

What is the point of the CF deck, over aluminium, eliminating the advantage of the use of best bedding compound ever invented, welding?
What is the point of a steel deck, when the bottom does all the reef-hitting?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

There is a construction thread for a Bestevaer 49ST over on Cruisers Forum. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/bestevaer-49st-147499.html

 

Workmanship is incredible. They do compound curved hull plating with no paint or filler.

 

Not sure how the price of this 'semi custom' boat compares to something that is floating at a dock, but it might be worth a look. The shipyard is very open to the wishes of the owners and seem to be able to do anything that is requested.

 

Steve

 

File Photo.

bestevaer_49_st.jpg

 

Looks good! Nice wide side decks, nice bulwark and a boarding ladder which is easily accessible from the water. Comfy looking wheelhouse, with good visibility.

Bare aluminium is nice in cold latittudes, but in the tropics it gets hot enough to burn the soles off your feet. It should be painted but fortunately, on aluminium, that paint is only cosmetic . Bruce Cope of Cope Aluminium Yachts, told me that the only sure way he found to get paint to stick to aluminium ,was a light sandblasting. He tried etch primer ,but the primer was softer than the epoxy he put over it , making it chip easily. He had better luck with epoxy on sandblasted aluminium with no primer of any kind.

There is a lynch mob of plastic boat advocates here, led by Perry , determined to sabotage all info exchange on metal boats. Just a matter of time before they show up on this thread.

Do you mean the same Bob Perry that has already posted favorably about metal boats in this thread?

 

Maybe you are talking about the Bob Perry that has helped and encouraged me personally with my metal boat rebuild?

 

Or perhaps you are thinking of the Bob Perry that spent may hours (for free) mentoring me with a clean sheet design (not yet built) of a metal boat?

 

Steve

I mean the Bob Perry who constantly attacks any innovations in steel boat building, or steel boats in general, without having ever built ,cruised in , maintained or lived aboard a steel boat for any length of time, if ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There used to be a number of quality alu builders in the US. I worked with several of them. The only one I know today is Jim Betts and he hasn't built an alu boat in years. I have a client now exploring alu for hus next boat. There are a number of goof alu fish boat builders in my area but they do not build to yacht quality like you see in those Euro boats. A 32' Bristol Bay gill netter will run you more than $600,000.

A friend, who has owned and cruised in sailboats around the S Pacific and Caribean for decades, bought a "Yacht Quality " powerboat. In Haida Gwai ,he was fearful of crossing Hecate strait , something he never experienced in his sailboats.

He would have been far better off in a fishboat , rather than his "Yacht Quality " boat.

Hecate Strait is not impressed by pretentiousness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Panope:

Now you mention it maybe you should post that little beauty you were working on. It would fit this thread nicely.

 

When I was in junior high school I got in trouble from time to time. My parents always heard about it. But lucky for me there was another "Bob Perry" at my school. He was a little, short nerdy type kid, a nice kid, and I always tried to convince my parents that it was "the other" Bob Perry that was i trouble. It never worked.

 

I'll do my part o prevent this thread from being mucked up. I think we can have a good time here with quality metal boats.I do like quality. I will not respond to any personal or professional attacks from BS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Ok, I need to remind some people here that I really like aluminum boats.

Let me say that again. I really would prefer this thread not be turned into a BS shit fight.

So, for the record my favorite material to work with is CF and my second favorite material is alu.

Here are some examples of my alu boats and I'm sure most f you have seen them already. But some people have very short attention spans.

 

STEPHALA now MARLIN a realkly nive alu boat built in Holland.stepalahpic1010_zps57e0d7ae.jpg

 

YONI built by Jespersen in B.C.Yoni-stb-1-123-thumb-400x286-369_zps5d08

 

ILLUSION built in alu by Howdy Baileyillusion_zpsvyrz2aoo.jpg

 

WHITE EAGLE built by Jim Betts.Wildhorsesanchored_zpsc7f61b73.jpg

I have several more alu boats but I have not had the photos scanned yet. If anyone thinks I don;t like aluminum boats this group of beauties should be enough to prove they are very wrong.

How can you not love WILD HORSES? Alu hull with composite/CF deck.

What is the point of the CF deck, over aluminium, eliminating the advantage of the use of best bedding compound ever invented, welding?
What is the point of a steel deck, when the bottom does all the reef-hitting?

You never know when it might rollover in ten days on the reef in surf. Better to be safe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lioness:

WILD HORSES can sail itself out of any trouble. It is a high performance cruising boat by any standard. The second owners are enjoying the boat. They spent three years cruising the Pacific in a Nordic 44. They came home with a new son and a need for a bigger boat. They have lived aboard for about five years. It breaks my heart but they are building a new house now. Life goes on.

 

Huskies are crushing Oregon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Yes and after careful consideration its likely to be an Outremer 45. We were very seriously considering going back to a monohull (Outbound 46) and quite accidentally ran into the Allures and Garcia line at the Annapolis show being represented (very well) by some knowledgeable folks from Swiftsure Yachts.

What is it about the outremer that tickles your fancy, wess? I have never seen one in the flesh, although we have huge numbers of Grainger's, schionnings etc.

The stealth cats from Alan cawardine look really nice, and go like shit off a shovel, although the first few were a little underbuilt apparently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I spotted Wild Horses at Elliot Bay when we were there in 2013, nice looking boat.

 

wild%20horses.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We haven't had our aluminum boat long, but are huge fans - absolutely love the low maintenance, lack of leaks, and the stiff hull. We bought her two years ago in France and have crossed to the Caribbean and then spent this summer up in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia - we're hoping to head back north again next summer after we winter in Maine. She's a 1983 Gilles Vaton designed Pouvreau 42, but very heavily modified by the original owner for his trips to Patagonia and Antarctica. My only real complaint right now is that we don't point very well - we don't have any inboard sheet leads and with a 13' beam really struggle to point with the jib sheeted to the toe-rail. We're thinking about rigging up barber haulers of some sort but haven't quite figure out the best way to do it yet.

IMG 6161

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

YMT: Very nice but I am not keen on the "reversed" windshield and I don't care what it accomplishes. It's like a small rock in the toe of your Ferragamo's.

 

What does it accomplish?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

YMT: Very nice but I am not keen on the "reversed" windshield and I don't care what it accomplishes. It's like a small rock in the toe of your Ferragamo's.

 

What does it accomplish?

 

 

If it is raining, the windows stay clear of water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bob, the rejoinder was to the comment above on steel decks, not your design.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

YMT: Very nice but I am not keen on the "reversed" windshield and I don't care what it accomplishes. It's like a small rock in the toe of your Ferragamo's.

 

What does it accomplish?

If it is raining, the windows stay clear of water.

I see that style on work boats and commercial fishing boats. I always thought it was so you could look down on deck or down to the water easier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

YMT: Very nice but I am not keen on the "reversed" windshield and I don't care what it accomplishes. It's like a small rock in the toe of your Ferragamo's.

What does it accomplish?

If it is raining, the windows stay clear of water.

Shaded from glare most of the time too, so easier to see through for a longer part of the day

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

YMT: Very nice but I am not keen on the "reversed" windshield and I don't care what it accomplishes. It's like a small rock in the toe of your Ferragamo's.

What does it accomplish?

If it is raining, the windows stay clear of water.

Shaded from glare most of the time too, so easier to see through for a longer part of the day

 

.......and instrument panel lighting does not reflect into eyes at night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Panope:

Now you mention it maybe you should post that little beauty you were working on. It would fit this thread nicely.

 

I got an idea for a small, trailer-able motorsailer, a few years back. Figured I had better get something drawn before it slipped away...

 

26' LOD

8'6 Beam (legal on roads)

7,000 pounds. (estimate)

All welded aluminum of varying thickness.

All ballast in hull, just below cabin sole.

Standing headroom in Pilot house and cabin.

Engine and BIG tankage under Pilot house sole.

Boat will be very tender. However, water and fuel could be set up to transfer from one side to the other.

Boat will be slow. No chance of exceeding hullspeed unless being towed behind a truck.

 

Gaff rig - because it is what I know how to do - simply (and it's cool).

27er%20Aug%202015%20Profile_zpsvtajgucr.

 

With thick glass (or plastic) on the windows, it should be able to take quite a beating. Not sure I would survive rolling around in that thing for a couple days.

2015%20Feb%20Model%20073_zpsauvjh83h.jpg

 

 

27er%20July%202015%20Deck%20Plan_zpsgwxf

 

 

I goofed around with various interior layouts. I'd probably finalize after hull is completed and able to do mock-ups. Anchor chain stored low, in mast tabernacle/post - box.

27er%20July%202015%20Interior%20Detail_z

 

Dagger boards withdrawn, outboard of pilot house. Off the wind, boards up, the boat might be kinda fun to sail.

27er%20July%202015%20Trailer_zpsh3qypy6k

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Other than cost of materials is the barrier to Aluminum boats the cost of labor ?

 

I can imagine getting that much welding done with inert gas blanketing can not be cheap.

When the steel for my 36 footer was around $6K the aluminium was $20K. That is before you price in the welding. Building a steel boat needs no cover ,and can easily be built outside, as were most of the several dozen I have built. That can save a fortune on rent.

A friend on Lasqueti built his aluminium boat outside , but he had to wait for perfect ,flat calm , dry conditions to do his welding.

 

 

Correction: the 'several dozen' (actually not even 3 dozen) that you *tacked together* and left the owners to do all the seam welding, fitout, plumbing/wiring systems and rig. You haven't built more than 2 boats from start to finish in your entire life.

 

This was a good thread before you arrived. Why don't you piss off out of it now?

 

FYT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My only real complaint right now is that we don't point very well - we don't have any inboard sheet leads and with a 13' beam really struggle to point with the jib sheeted to the toe-rail. We're thinking about rigging up barber haulers of some sort but haven't quite figure out the best way to do it yet.

The option of low friction rings with dyneema simplifies life, but yes, you do still need to find suitable attachment points etc.

 

With the thought that we will be using LF rings extensively on our new boat, I have been playing with them this year. LF rings and alu boats are a match made in heaven :). There were no ideal solutions I could find to capture the ring easily using dyneema (whipping at the throat is subjected to massive peeling loads and using lots of loops of thin dyneema is messy) so I came up with what I think is a neat option: what I have named a Bullseye weave combined with an adaptation of a soft shackle with diamond stopper.

 

I didn't cut the tail short enough here, but could have done so after pre-tentioning this between two winches. I used 6 mm dyneema and a 25 mm ring. This has been tested out on board our current 48 footer, handling headsail loads beautifully for a few months now (not an ideal application, but good for test purposes as the loads are high):

 

image_zpstucfwwxm.jpeg

 

 

Also, using a loop of dyneema with the Bullseye weave is a neat, simple and strong way of connecting two rings:

 

image_zpsswbpfit0.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lass, any pics of tying the bullseye?

 

I wonder if you could give some tips on managing electrolysis in Alu hulls?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we leave Bob and Brent have their usual fight on their own, the noise to signal ratio might stay low enough.

Some of us actually enjoy chatting about boats!

 

That's neat ropework lass.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if you could give some tips on managing electrolysis in Alu hulls?

Marry well :).

My hubbie is knowledgable when it comes to electrics and by osmosis I have absorbed a bit.

 

Electrolysis is not much of a problem if the boat is built with the right grade of alu, and a few precautions are taken with electrics. The best way is to completely isolate both the negative & positive system. This means double poled circuit breakers and double poled battery switches on every circuit. It also means isolating the engine negative from the hull (not difficult to do).

 

Stainless steel needs to be isolated from alu with a layer in between, or where contact is unavoidable such as with bolts, then apply Duralac of Tefgel.

 

These steps are not difficult, although the electrical fit out is more expensive. Sadly these simple techniques are not always followed.

 

PS 10% brains and 95% muscle, the rest is just good luck :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's neat ropework lass.

Thanks. It's a hobby of mine.

 

Lass, any pics of tying the bullseye?

I have written extensive instructions with photos.

I will start a thread here when I have some free time. Things are hectic at the moment, as we have just received full 3D interior files for the new boat and need to get back to KM ASAP.

 

This is probably the easiest description of how to weave the Bullseye. This is for a long strop, but learning how to do this first is best before soft shackle versions are tackled:

 

image_zpszqmclfgg.jpeg

 

This is how it ends up when the tails are buried:

 

image_zpsw5cs5hcd.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the reverse angle windshield is all about glare off the water. It looks good on some boats if you are after that workboat look.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the reverse angle windshield is all about glare off the water. It looks good on some boats if you are after that workboat look.

I think it looks classic when designed to be balanced with the rest of the boat.

 

It suits Panope's boat perfectly (I followed his refit with interest).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

YMT: Very nice but I am not keen on the "reversed" windshield and I don't care what it accomplishes. It's like a small rock in the toe of your Ferragamo's.

What does it accomplish?

If it is raining, the windows stay clear of water.

Shaded from glare most of the time too, so easier to see through for a longer part of the day

 

.......and instrument panel lighting does not reflect into eyes at night.

 

Despite our interest in metal boat, as mentioned we are likely headed to an Outremer cat. For now... but a metal monohull may in our future about 10 years downstream when we can really be free to pursue off the beaten path cruising. But back to outremer and windows...

 

That "brand" has certain visual ques including a "dome" cabin house with forward sloping window. But in real life use those windows would always be covered. Never mind the rain, or glare or... the heat transfer into the cabin was brutal. They recently got away from this feature. Not as distinctive or pleasing to the eye (or our eye at least) but far more functional. Give me reverse windows any day!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we leave Bob and Brent have their usual fight on their own, the noise to signal ratio might stay low enough.

Some of us actually enjoy chatting about boats!

 

That's neat ropework lass.

Yes please. Started this thread to avoid that fight and its followers. Hopefully can discuss boats without all the noise. Really amazing about what is out there in this segment. Was completely blind to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll take care of me. You take care of you.

 

Lass:

Panope's house has a dead vertical windshield. No discernible rake to it at all. I agree, it suits the boat well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lass:

Panope's house has a dead vertical windshield. No discernible rake to it at all. I agree, it suits the boat well.

Oops!

You're right. Memory isn't what it used to be.

I was remembering the eyebrow and translated that to a rake.

 

Looks good whatever angle it is :).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Lass: That is beautiful.

 

@LeoV and seaworthy lass, the Dutch deinitely know how to build steel and aluminium boats... and they sail them.

 

Pretty boat Lass, congratulations!

 

Oh and Lass... nice boat you have and are building!

Thanks for the compliments guys.

Building this boat is having a longstanding dream fulfilled. I am still pinching myself that this is for real :).

 

 

It is going to be a spectacular way to explore the world... Good luck and congrats...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lass:

I like your marlinspike seamanship. We will have numerous lashings on the carbon cutters including the dyneema bobstay. It's interesting how the ancient art of lashings is being adapted to modern materials. Here is one end fitting for our bobstay.

 

018_zpsdn5h8hxq.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lass:

I like your marlinspike seamanship. We will have numerous lashings on the carbon cutters including the dyneema bobstay. It's interesting how the ancient art of lashings is being adapted to modern materials. Here is one end fitting for our bobstay.

 

018_zpsdn5h8hxq.jpg

Is that a commercial or custom made part?

 

A low friction ring with a throat min 2:1, but with a circular centre would be brilliant. It would instantly solve the issue of how to secure it around its periphery, leaving the centre free.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now