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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Wess

Metal Boats

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18 hours ago, Brent Swain said:

With skyrocketing marina fees and nit picking regulations, cruisers are abandoning marinas , and haulouts for moorings,  ,and tide grids , in droves.

More BSBS - the people on mooring here mostly can't find marina berths - especially liveaboard.

Do you seriously think the people anchored off Kits beach are there by choice?

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 Lever thing works well.

Reeeeely well.

Needed a third arm to get a good picture, but you get the idea.  I was able to harden up the drifter like never before.

Steve

CFaASB6.jpg
AXv5VtB.jpg

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Thanks, C

Yep, it just hangs down.  The anchor lanyard is sized so that the handle just clears the deck.  

Originally, I was thinking it would need to be rigged/derigged for every use.  Now I think I will just leave it there.

I will soon build a mirror image copy for the starboard side.

The PANOPULLERS are the ONLY dead vegetation on the outside of the boat.  The horror.

Steve  

 

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Solid rail helps to stabilize but I'm sure it would be fine without. 

A little angle to the cleat or get out the die grinder a cut a smooth rope groove.

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5 hours ago, Panope said:

Thanks, C

Yep, it just hangs down.  The anchor lanyard is sized so that the handle just clears the deck.  

Originally, I was thinking it would need to be rigged/derigged for every use.  Now I think I will just leave it there.

I will soon build a mirror image copy for the starboard side.

The PANOPULLERS are the ONLY dead vegetation on the outside of the boat.  The horror.

Steve  

 

 

"vegitation" Please. Detail is everything.

 

Very elegant indeed. Well done. It deserves to be named after you - the Goodwin Floating Lever. I want to find a use for one!

 

By the way, this disturbing image came up when I searched for Panope - as I'm sure you know (I didn't) it's the French word for Geoduck

 

SKY20110401105359AL.jpg

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On 2017-07-08 at 3:22 PM, Whisper said:

.

I've seen thicker ice in the Pribilofs, but nothing close to 5".

Can we change the topic to Bering Sea cruising?  I've always wanted to get up to the Pribilofs.  I believe there's a wildlife refuge for walruses there, at least I think it's there, where hundreds and hundreds if not thousands can be seen lounging and grunting and snorting and sparring (with tusks) on the beach in summer.  Anyway, I'm picturing Bob and Brent duking it out.

Animal face-off:  Polar Bear vs. walrus...not sure yet who here would be the stand-in as the David Attenborough elegant narrator voice...

 

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3 hours ago, A horse, of course said:

 

"vegitation" Please. Detail is everything.

 

Very elegant indeed. Well done. It deserves to be named after you - the Goodwin Floating Lever. I want to find a use for one!

 

By the way, this disturbing image came up when I searched for Panope - as I'm sure you know (I didn't) it's the French word for Geoduck

 

SKY20110401105359AL.jpg

Thanks, Ed.

My father is perhaps the worlds foremost Geoduck researcher.  Marine biologist, retired.  Life's work was studying/managing the State of Washington's Geoduck resource.

Panopea Generosa (scientific name). Greek origin, I believe.

Steve

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By the way, Steve...just came across your video of rebuilding Panope and forwarded the link to someone I know who has gutted his 35' metal boat interior but (perhaps understandably!) lost heart and steam to undertake the massive rebuild...maybe your video will inspire him!  

All told, you were at it for like 5-6 months full time?

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1 hour ago, Panope said:

Thanks, Ed.

My father is perhaps the worlds foremost Geoduck researcher.  Marine biologist, retired.  Life's work was studying/managing the State of Washington's Geoduck resource.

Panopea Generosa (scientific name). Greek origin, I believe.

Steve

Mirugai, yum!

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Jud, 

This past winters rebuild was a solid 7 months of work, full time.

In case you missed it, you might forward my OTHER rebuilding video.  This one depicts a 14 year, sporadic effort.  Then again, that 14 slog might ADD to your friends discouragement.  

Steve

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Whisper said:

Mirugai, yum!

I grew up eating Geoduck (and all manner of seafood).  Alas, my wife grew up in Canada's heartland eating great slabs of beef.  Thus, adventurous sea-food is an uncommon dish in my house.

 

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2 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

By the way, Steve...just came across your video of rebuilding Panope and forwarded the link to someone I know who has gutted his 35' metal boat interior but (perhaps understandably!) lost heart and steam to undertake the massive rebuild...maybe your video will inspire him!  

All told, you were at it for like 5-6 months full time?

Thanks for the reminder as I did not have good wifi when the video first was announced and wanted to watch it.

 

Panope

Great job in both the video and rebuild.

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7 hours ago, A horse, of course said:

 

"vegitation" Please. Detail is everything.

 

Very elegant indeed. Well done. It deserves to be named after you - the Goodwin Floating Lever. I want to find a use for one!

 

By the way, this disturbing image came up when I searched for Panope - as I'm sure you know (I didn't) it's the French word for Geoduck

 

SKY20110401105359AL.jpg

The first person to eat one of those things sure must have been hungry.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

The first person to eat one of those things sure must have been hungry.

Uni probably wins that race.  Or even cheese, for that matter.

I love raw geoduck and sea urchin guts.

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16 hours ago, Panope said:

Thanks, Ed.

My father is perhaps the worlds foremost Geoduck researcher.  Marine biologist, retired.  Life's work was studying/managing the State of Washington's Geoduck resource.

Panopea Generosa (scientific name). Greek origin, I believe.

Steve

 

Great - I'm glad I mentioned it. I'd assumed it was straight from the Greek. I wonder where the odd name Geoduck evolved from?

As to combining your tastes, our favourite feast dish is modelled on the Portugese Cataplana - pork stew with clams. Can make a dead man, er, grin.

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Steve , watched the video last night; very interesting. Glad you kept the dream alive...

Wouldn't be a good boat for around here, but looks about perfect for your area.

Keep on keeping on

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21 hours ago, Panope said:

Jud, 

This past winters rebuild was a solid 7 months of work, full time.

In case you missed it, you might forward my OTHER rebuilding video.  This one depicts a 14 year, sporadic effort.  Then again, that 14 slog might ADD to your friends discouragement.  

Steve

 

 

Steve,

Yeah, I figured he'd better watch your part 2 with sledge hammers and sawzall, followed by the happy ending, instead of the 14-year part 1 slog (I hadn't realized part 1 detailed that part of your efforts)!

As for me, I'm on the 14 year plan --picking away at things on and off, but in between cruises, thankfully and not all that time on the hard! -- and the end is now very much within sight.  Not sure I'd survive a full boat gut project...unless I had 7 months full-time to complete!

This photo shows a combination of success and failure...I won't provide any details :-)

IMG_4563.JPG

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14 hours ago, A horse, of course said:

Great - I'm glad I mentioned it. I'd assumed it was straight from the Greek. I wonder where the odd name Geoduck evolved from?

As to combining your tastes, our favourite feast dish is modelled on the Portugese Cataplana - pork stew with clams. Can make a dead man, er, grin.

From the "Geoduck" Wikipedia page:

The name geoduck is derived from a Lushootseed (Nisqually) word gʷídəq[5][6] either a word composed of a first element of unknown meaning and əq meaning "genitals" (referring to the shape of the clam),[7] or a phrase meaning "dig deep",[8] or perhaps both, as a double entendre."

Nisqually is a local (to puget sound) indian tribe.

Steve

 

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12 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Steve , watched the video last night; very interesting. Glad you kept the dream alive...

Wouldn't be a good boat for around here, but looks about perfect for your area.

Keep on keeping on

Thanks, beer.  

Will do.

Steve

 

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No-one has clarified it for the non-locals so just to be clear it's pronounced "Gooey Duck"

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9 hours ago, A horse, of course said:

Cool 

many thanks

best ways of preparing?

 

 

Someone else will have to answer this one.  

I have zero culinary skill.

Steve

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It is definitely chewy stuff.  I recall the use of hammer shaped "tenderizers" being used with vigor.

Hey, I'm pretty good with hammers.  Perhaps I should take up cooking?

 

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55 minutes ago, Panope said:

Hey, I'm pretty good with hammers.  Perhaps I should take up cooking?

If you are just ½ good with cooking as you are with most everything you do, yes you should. It is actually very similar.

//J

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On 7/15/2017 at 5:43 AM, A horse, of course said:

By the way, this disturbing image came up when I searched for Panope - as I'm sure you know (I didn't) it's the French word for Geoduck

 

SKY20110401105359AL.jpg

Jeez, imagine stuffing one of those in your pants before a short arm inspection. 

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5 hours ago, Panope said:

It is definitely chewy stuff.  I recall the use of hammer shaped "tenderizers" being used with vigor.

Hey, I'm pretty good with hammers.  Perhaps I should take up cooking?

 

I seem to remember mom running the necks through a grinder and then pressing into patties with bread crumbs, eggs, and spices. She also made chowder a few times. Unfortunately geoduck was her first instance of seafood allergies. She loved eating it and tried several times but always vomited afterwards. Years later she was allergic to other seafood and even had to go to the hospital during one of their Alaska cruises after catching and eating prawns.

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

They're very different.  I would never hammer a geoduck--nor would I grind them into fritters unless they've been dead for awhile.  Raw is best, I think.  If you're good with a yanagi, it won't be rubbery or tough.  Just wrap a nori belt around it to keep it from crawling away, add a couple grains of kosher salt and a bit of lemon and I think it's awesome.

I am not a big fan of raw abalone, so pounding and cooking is my prefered way of eating them.

IMG_3906.JPG

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2 hours ago, Whisper said:

Gross.  Canned shit is only for when you run out of fresh.

You like your shit fresh? If I have to eat it, I'd rather have a coprolite.

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8 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

You like your shit fresh? If I have to eat it, I'd rather have a coprolite.

Didn't catch that pearl. Sweet nutslap!

Gotta watch your word smithing around here whisp, never thought of canned shit 

the people living in homes above Brent's Mudflatter 36' did, however 

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54 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Didn't catch that pearl. Sweet nutslap!

Gotta watch your word smithing around here whisp, never thought of canned shit 

the people living in homes above Brent's Mudflatter 36' did, however 

I consider most canned meats shit.  And now I live in Hawaii.  How do people eat Spam???

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2 minutes ago, Whisper said:

I consider most canned meats shit.  And now I live in Hawaii.  How do people eat Spam???

They don't can scrapple so all you get is spam 

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1 minute ago, jamhass said:

They do.

I would say I like it, but I'm still in the corner wearing the coveted pointy hat.

You might have added a week to your hat status.

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1 hour ago, Whisper said:

You might have added a week to your hat status.

People who not only eat Marmite & Vegemite but like it have forfeited any right to condemn other peoples choices of food.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

People who not only eat Marmite & Vegemite but like it have forfeited any right to condemn other peoples choices of food.

Whoa!  Who knew Sloopy was a sock for Brent???

In this country that is grounds for a defamation suit--libel per se!

Yes, I graciously sampled products laid out by my generous host.  I thoroughly trusted him after the Swiss Steak and fixin's he laid out the night before.  It was delicious!  He and Jill were so nice.  Great vino, stimulating conversations with Ruby and Pumpkin.  But little did I know I must have overstayed my welcome.  That's when I sampled the petroleum sludge on top of some otherwise perfect toast.  Fortunately, the coffee was a good solvent and saved my life.

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9 hours ago, Whisper said:

Whoa!  Who knew Sloopy was a sock for Brent???

HEY!

Them's fightin' words.

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OK Jamhass: You can take the hat off now.

I'm off to the boatyard this morning. I think of these days as "Bob days" when I do exactly what I want to do. And I want to go to the boat yard. It will possible be the last time I see young Will, for a long time. He leaves on Saturday. He's going to be just fine, just    fine.

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1 hour ago, Panope said:

That boat really needs a sugar scoop addition.

Steve

One does wonder why the designer though the immersed transom was a good idea.

And why no forward bulkhead for privacy...

And some  other things, but it looks well built and clean.

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Semi: I agree, it does look to be in pretty good shape.  

Funny you should mention the "no forward bulkhead" as I have decided to REMOVE a significant portion of mine during my next rebuilding rampage.  

I'm looking for a more "open" space down below.  

Privacy will be achieved (rarely needed) with a curtain that will run along a custom, arched (to match the cabin camber) curtain rod.  

I'll cut away the upper, port side of the bulkhead, leaving a sort of lopsided "keyhole" shape.  Port side, lower portion will match the galley bulkhead shape.

Steve

p1hiiS7.jpg

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4 hours ago, Panope said:

Semi: I agree, it does look to be in pretty good shape.  

Funny you should mention the "no forward bulkhead" as I have decided to REMOVE a significant portion of mine during my next rebuilding rampage.  

I'm looking for a more "open" space down below.  

Privacy will be achieved (rarely needed) with a curtain that will run along a custom, arched (to match the cabin camber) curtain rod.  

I'll cut away the upper, port side of the bulkhead, leaving a sort of lopsided "keyhole" shape.  Port side, lower portion will match the galley bulkhead shape.

Steve

p1hiiS7.jpg

That is one inviting space.  Though I did a double-take at the bathtub to the left - before realizing that I've just stayed up too late again and my eyes are playing tricks.

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17 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

One does wonder why the designer though the immersed transom was a good idea..................

 

Hard to tell but there's the ghost of a waterline much lower,  I think the antifouling is misleading as they just followed the chines aft and cut across.

 

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33 minutes ago, MikeJohns said:

Hard to tell but there's the ghost of a waterline much lower,  I think the antifouling is misleading as they just followed the chines aft and cut across.

 

Good be.

Having looked closer, I'm wondering about the chain hanging down under the stern.

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Me too!

The thought does have me thinking:

Dear Santa: I could really use a Watermaker, Hot water tank and Pump for my new tub.  Also need an outrigger ama to keep the boat upright.

Steve

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An old 28' catboat in this area had a 4' claw foot tub instead of a starboard berth. I really wanted that boat and I don't even like baths

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

I saw a bath tub too

Ditto - I was confused by the drain pipe exiting the top of the tub though.

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I splurged and stayed at the Edgewater a couple of years ago.  They have lightweight (?) plastic clawfoot tubs, gas fireplaces, carpeting, and windows overlooking the sound.  Hmm... just like Steve's boat.  (Except maddeningly, there is no place near the tub to park your cocktail.)  

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2 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

Mine has only one full bulkhead, in the back of the wheelhouse , one side only, ahead of the head. The rest are only partial bulkheads.Love it, a totally open interior.More of my clients are going that route,and  loving it.

As a friend said;

"You can hear a fart thru a  door, just as much as you can  hear one thru a curtain."

I hear you loud and clear, Brent.

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On 21/07/2017 at 11:42 AM, Brent Swain said:

We used to  go to great lengths  to avoid any transom immersion ,with overhangs, until we realized it was not worth  the waterline length  we were  giving up for overhangs. Now many boats  have their transoms kissing the water at rest ,to go under in quarter waves, with  no ill effects, including some  racing boats.

Yeah not quite.  Transom immersion on race boats works because they are going fast enough to have clean separation.   in displacement mode, it is just drag.  Kind of like dragging a brick through the water.   The really high performance boats with transom immersion like the volvo's and imoca boats have ballast tanks forward to help give a nose down, transom out of the water trim in light air.

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Spoonie:

BS does not understand the difference between one of his  hulls and a boat like ICON or the FT10M or any other high performance boat. In his mind they are just all the same things obeying the same rules. He has never sailed a high performance boat.

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Wow, BS doesn't even understand what waterline really means nor does he understand fineness, prismatics, Froude number, trim etc. You can tell.

But remember:  he is a TROLL. He likes saying wrong things. It gets attention.

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On 19/07/2017 at 8:45 PM, SemiSalt said:

One does wonder why the designer though the immersed transom was a good idea.

And why no forward bulkhead for privacy...

And some  other things, but it looks well built and clean.

That's a Caroff design, the waterline is probably lower than what you imagine. I found this photo of one sailing, it doesn't look to draggy. These are designs from the 70s, sugar scoops weren't popular yet.

chatam_p_(4).jpg

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On 2017-07-28 at 11:42 AM, Panoramix said:

That's a Caroff design, the waterline is probably lower than what you imagine. I found this photo of one sailing, it doesn't look to draggy. These are designs from the 70s, sugar scoops weren't popular yet.

chatam_p_(4).jpg

Our Caroff design ('80s) has worked for us over the years. It's funky, but that's ok.  My original interest in the boat was a very large amount of space for a 10m/33' boat, and the desire to cruise far north/south.

 

IMG_4670.JPG

IMG_4671.JPG

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On ‎03‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 2:01 AM, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Our Caroff design ('80s) has worked for us over the years. It's funky, but that's ok.  My original interest in the boat was a very large amount of space for a 10m/33' boat, and the desire to cruise far north/south.

 

IMG_4670.JPG

IMG_4671.JPG

Caroff designs have worked for many persons over the years. Even if it isn't my type of boat I would still very happily use one to travel somewhere nice with family.

I have a school pal who's been to newfoundland and Greenland on a steel boat, he keeps joking "I just tell people that steel boats are really bad because people like me need some cheap ones on the market to buy..." 

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32 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

I had one on my first boat. Plenty of glare. and makes it easy for a thief to break in.Expensive to replace when it  gets scratched up too much.

If I were doing that again,I would make an aluminium  frame with 4 flat panels in the sides ,and one on top. That would let me use laminated glass, instead of plastic . That would make them easy to replace, and almost eliminate the scratching problem. It would also make it hard for  a thief to get thru.

However nothing like a good wheelhouse, with a proper steering seat and jog stick  for trimtab  steering.

Believe it or not they make clear polycarbonate that is far stronger than laminated glass, look up Lexan for example.  It's been around for years and will stop a bullet.

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Laminated glass or laminated polymer is superior to plain lexan. After being cracked, it stays in one piece and keeps water out until you fit blanking plates.

I can only imagine how ugly the square aluminum "dome" would look. If I were to make it out of laminated glass, I'd make it a laminated glass dome. But that is very expensive. For the size shown, that would run you on the order of $5000 dollars.

Better to use lexan and have a simple flat deadlight you can fit when the dome breaks.

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2 hours ago, Brent Swain said:

I remember  a post here which Bob showed some " Improvements" ,on one his existing designs, in which he extended the waterline, by bringing the transom down to almost touching the waterline. Almost all the newer boats  have their transoms almost  touching the waterline.

Yes, keeping it out of the water helps ,in an extremely marginal way. Overall,  longer waterline helps whole lot more.

An anemometer is a good example of how frontal streamlining is far more important than streamlining the back.

I fit were not, they wouldn't spin!

I know Bob warned me but... 

Nearly touching but not actually touching or immersed.  Subtle difference and largely defined by the run after.   This is the transom of Mark mills designed c&c 30

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ_ehBHzDOQdFORnguQmGI

No immersion but you will also note the curved shape.  The boat is relatively wide and when the boat heels for upwind work and at hull speed, the flow just breaks free of the transom. 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRONKIPYS4CP2aAiBZLWtV

That is maximising waterline length.  

Below hull speed, WSA and other drag factors dominate over WLL,  including transom drag. One of your boats will never leave hull speed but even for a cruiser, getting to hull speed as quickly as possible should be of primary interest and probably where one of your boats will spend most of the time. 

It may be that you have found transom drag inconsequential but I would think only because total drag is already quite high

*shrug*

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Brent you are a fool if you think you gain anything on an immersed transom on a slow displacement sailboat. So your waterline goes from 30' to 32' for example. 1/4 knot difference in theoretical hull speed. But much more drag which will more than counteract the effect of the longer waterline.

The next time you are sailing, look over the stern, and watch those big eddies go back and forth. Vortexes like that are not fast. They are slow.

There is a reason that smart designers maximize waterline, but they don't immerse the transom on a cruising sailboat. 

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3 hours ago, Brent Swain said:

I remember  a post here which Bob showed some " Improvements" ,on one his existing designs, in which he extended the waterline, by bringing the transom down to almost touching the waterline. Almost all the newer boats  have their transoms almost  touching the waterline.

Yes, keeping it out of the water helps ,in an extremely marginal way. Overall,  longer waterline helps whole lot more.

An anemometer is a good example of how frontal streamlining is far more important than streamlining the back.

I fit were not, they wouldn't spin!

More bull shit from BS.

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Laminated glass or laminated polymer is superior to plain lexan. After being cracked, it stays in one piece and keeps water out until you fit blanking plates.

I can only imagine how ugly the square aluminum "dome" would look. If I were to make it out of laminated glass, I'd make it a laminated glass dome. But that is very expensive. For the size shown, that would run you on the order of $5000 dollars.

Better to use lexan and have a simple flat deadlight you can fit when the dome breaks.

 

I used to build commuter train cars at General Electric.  They had Lexan windows, I think about 5/16" thick.  I tried every way I could think f to break one, hitting it hard with a heavy hammer, supporting on either end and jumping up and down on it and swinging into block walls and concrete floors and I never managed to break one.  I can't imagine breaking a piece of Lexan on a boat, especially a dome shaped piece under any but the most extreme (dropping the mast on it maybe) circumstances.  Now scratches are another matter, the shit scratches if you look a it wrong.  Even though we left the protective paper on the Lexan windows as long as possible, we often had to replace scratched windows prior to shipping the cars, those railroad inspectors were fussy.

 

The windows we used were far thicker than this.

 

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Train windows--cool!  "FRA"

I did a custom designed specialty thingamabob a few years ago. Acrylic versus polycarbonate were my final two choices. I chose PC. You can break acrylic really easily cleaniny with a nick. The polycarbonate tends to craze and fail with ductile crystalite formation. I'll film this and upload it eventually.

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2 hours ago, Spoonie said:

I know Bob warned me but... 

Nearly touching but not actually touching or immersed.  Subtle difference and largely defined by the run after.   This is the transom of Mark mills designed c&c 30

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No immersion but you will also note the curved shape.  The boat is relatively wide and when the boat heels for upwind work and at hull speed, the flow just breaks free of the transom. 

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That is maximising waterline length.  

Below hull speed, WSA and other drag factors dominate over WLL,  including transom drag. One of your boats will never leave hull speed but even for a cruiser, getting to hull speed as quickly as possible should be of primary interest and probably where one of your boats will spend most of the time. 

It may be that you have found transom drag inconsequential but I would think only because total drag is already quite high

*shrug*

This Fareast28R has a bit of the same features. Here from dry angles

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Once again, the problem with this discussion is too much generalizing. What you can do with overhang aft depends on the shape of the boat and the displ of the boat. The FAREAST has very, very flat butocks due to it's light weight. It's not going to dig its transom in when immersed. The water will just slide of the back with minimal eddies.

 

On the carbon cutters D/L 250 I brought the transom down to the DW: but the sectional shape there has a lot of deadrise. So, as the boat heels over there is no "corner" to dig in.

Best to access all the variable. before making sweeping comment on overhang aft. If  you want to generalize think of it this way: very light boats can get away with no aft overhang, heavy boats can't. That's close.

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