soma

Gunboat 68

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On 3/18/2019 at 10:06 AM, fufkin said:

... to me, in a perfect daylit world, good visibility at the helm ...

In terms of efficient ...lazyjacks ... [will] ...give the crew a reason to put their tea cups back on their saucers, drop the  IPad for a brief bit of digital detox and get outside to sea what's going on...

...but more importantly, what's with the notion that outdoor steering is such an uncivilized hardship?

You're talking about pleasure sailing in a 'perfect daylit world.'

I'm thinking about the 4am watch in cold wet weather with poor visibility on the liveaboard for which I just paid 5 mil. Literally where being indoors would be civilized, and out, not so much.

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On 3/18/2019 at 4:06 PM, soma said:

I've long been a fan of Gunboat's forward cockpit and inside helm...but after recently racing on Fujin and Chim Chim (with her new tillers) and comparing the experience to what I've accepted as a given in the past...I have to admit that there is something shockingly stupid about trimming sheets in the forward cockpit and steering inside.

The tillers on Chim Chim are dope. It was pretty amazing. You'd be inside the boat feeling way overwicked, thinking "we need to back off" then you'd hop in the helm seat aft and grab the tiller, and everything felt fine. Feeling the breeze, seeing the waves, seeing the sails, not hearing the hull rushing through the water, the response time...it was a huge gain.  The guys on Extreme (who innovated the tiller idea on GB's) reckon that tillers (vs inside helm) equal 3%-4% performance. I think that's underestimating it.


As far as the forward cockpit...that's just straight up BS. In the C600 on Chim Chim I'd do a spell relieving the trimmers in the forward pit. In 3 hours I'd maybe ease twice. There was NOTHING.TO.DO and I was getting firehosed the whole time. LIke...WTF?! How does that make sense? You DO have to have someone with their hands on the sheets, though, so two guys have to get firehosed 24/7 in race mode.

Ok, in cruising mode the forward cockpit is hands down the best option. Reefing solo, gybing solo, furling solo, whatever you need to do you can do alone. The rest of the time (in cruising mode) you're WAY shy of hull fly so the doors are closed and the pit is unoccupied. But racing you NEED someone up there.  F*** that. I want to be at the back of the boat with the guys who aren't being punished.

I think we've addressed it well on the Gunboat 5508 build that I'm managing. Wheel inside, tillers aft, trav controls aft and/or fwd, mainsheet aft and/or fwd, trimmers behind glass (if it's wet), headsail sheets fwd or aft. We should be able to stay dry and fast. 

 

You're proving my point about racer mentality. Re forward cockpit while racing doesn't make sense for anything but light air, but I'd like more details about the racing experience. You've removed most of the saloon furniture to lighten the boat, so how many of the four heads did you spend time taking out? Mattresses? Anchor and rode? What else doesn't belong on a race boat and gets stripped off for this scenario? (cmon, do you want to beat Elvis or don't you?) Is that still recognizably the Gunboat from the brochure?

Peter Johnstone's design brief, refined by Outremer but not changed significantly, was for a family liveaboard / cruiser. It's still superlative for that mission. Your objections make perfect sense for an owner chiefly interested in racing trophies, but I'd argue that he/she shouldn't have bought a liveaboard for that purpose, even if he/she wants to treat it as a convertible. Most people on this forum are completely aware of the inverse relationships in sailboat design (the more you gain in one aspect, the more you lose in another). Your comments are critical of race 'mode' while complimenting 'cruising' mode. I think it's reasonable to not ask the boat to excel in two modes with very heavy inverse relationships. Carbon fiber can only do so much.

So maybe if everyone could allow those who love the boat as an elegant liveaboard to post here without getting attacked from the racer perspective, we wouldn't have to argue so much. Had I the resources to order one, it wouldn't be the regatta rig. But I would have tillers (and think your argument about the performance benefit from there sound right. But I'd just want them for the most direct sailing experience / pleasure possible).

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14 hours ago, Wess said:

...@soma@dcnbluesBut all this is talk from an owner operator perspective and a nearing 60 year old Mom and Pop owner/operator at that.  And lets be serious - no judgement intended or implied - GBs like this (maybe even all of them in recent history) ain't intended for a near 60 year old Mom and Pop owner operator couple.  These things (need to) come with professional crew (plural) who will put the main to bed for you.  And then, yea, absolutely, I do NOT want the performance compromise that comes with a roller furling boom.  Give me exactly what GB did and let the hired help deal with it.  If that sounds like a criticism of either approach it ain't.  Different strokes (and boats and systems) for different folks (and economics and intended uses).

Except for tillers!  Cant we ALL get along and agree they are great, LOL.

I guess my perspective disagrees with you on this. I recently had my motorcycle knocked out from under me, and while it was the Gunboat of motorcycles, it was also a docile and easy to ride around pussycat in city traffic (every review would mention this). When you're talking about world cruisers, it's not just the carbon fiber that's gotten so much better. Better coms mean MUCH better weather routing, hence less danger of gale conditions, and the boat's speed compounds this advantage: it's fast enough to basically sail away from rough water. The other huge improvement I've noticed is autopilot reliability. There was a time not so long ago if you wanted to cross an ocean, it was a safe bet the autopilot would be dead by the end of the passage. Add to this the inherent maneuverability of a cat with two engines, and I'm sure Outremer would back me in saying there's no reason at all a couple in their 50's couldn't cruise the boat with ease (maybe with the boom furler required). I've read arguments about this brand that assured the reader that a competent wife / second mate could (and did) singlehand it without any other issue than perhaps insurance. [Of course in cruising there would be conditions where you would run into limitations, but those might be able to be handled by local short term help / crew).

We can agree on the tillers, but everybody's really going to hate this: I don't see why you couldn't make a beautifully designed handheld remote control for the boat. The racers will hate this SO much, but I doubt the boat doesn't already come loaded with both wi-fi and bluetooth, autopilot, and electronic engine controls. It's basically pre-wired for remote control. All you'd need are two throttles and a tiller in a neat little gadget maybe made out of teak and brass and some waterproof circuit boards. Maybe a tether to a forearm sheath. And if one looks at video game controls, these are not difficult requirements. Imagine reefing down and sailing the boat slow through shallow waters that make you nervous. Or docking. While singlehanded. I don't see why one couldn't steer the boat from the tramp in harbor from a remote in your hand. It would make a very handy accessory. (I'm curious about where the autopilot is located in the cable schematic: could you disable the salon wheel and still have the autopilot steer? I'm guessing not).  We're talking about a 5 million dollar toy, so my mind goes to where can we push the ergonomics...

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13 hours ago, lostmydetailsagain said:

...But seeing as the GB68#1 also has a rig from the Hall guys (the 2 Hill-cats with furling boom also have it) and the 66ft Kotuku doesn't seem to have a vang (so I'm guessing a permanent boom lift) I cannot see why it wouldn't be an option.

Thank you so much for that! Beautiful boats. I'm also curious about what they would cost. I liked Kotuku (from the few pics available on internet) a bit more because of what seemed better visibility. Yeah, looks like they're managing with just a topping lift. The people who sell the furling booms really need to be more upfront about the weight specs. Anyone know how much the stock boom on a '68 GB would weigh?

The other part I really loved about Cation (named after the positively charged ion, cat-E-on / 'Cation' - Roger Hill design; Boat Review) was the upper berths above the master berths below them. That's what you want if you're spending weeks at a time on a cat: an indoor couch protected from sun and wind to stretch out on but high enough for good visibility. I don't like being down near the floor. The 68 GB would have to put something over the passageways to give you that.

I'm really guessing that the smaller windows in the front of the salon with the really small porthholes are to keep costs down. That's what I love most about the front Gunboat cockpit: those open doors and huge upswinging front window. That feel that air can move through the cabin. Other designs just feel somewhat claustrophobic to me (even if earlier posts debated how much additional drag all that vertical glass costs in performance).

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3 hours ago, dcnblues said:

You're talking about pleasure sailing in a 'perfect daylit world.'

I'm thinking about the 4am watch in cold wet weather with poor visibility on the liveaboard for which I just paid 5 mil. Literally where being indoors would be civilized, and out, not so much.

Somehow I doubt if someone is buying a 5 mill + boat that they would be doing the 4am watch,

The crew they will need to hire to help maintain the systems, clean, polish and help sail on this cat, would be doing the watch on the cold wet delivery, while the owner and or wife probably fly into the warm and sunny destination.....

Now, that doesn't mean that a serious, "highly experienced" multihull sailor owner, couldn't handle this cat if he really wanted to.

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Well I guess the question then really is whether they'll get any buyers who really do plan to cruise on it for extended periods. Maybe you're right and at that wealth level, they simply wouldn't.

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Getting back on topic, looks like the 68 is on the move. The last I’d heard they intended to do Les Voiles de St. Barth’s in mid-April. Are they doing a timed run at the start line? 3600 nm in 24 days? Piece of cake.

 

 

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I am sorry for the derail but I gotta ask.

@dcnblues -you list interests as Gunboat and Corsair 37, have you owned a cat or tri larger than 30 feet and sailed it offshore?

I honestly mean no disrespect with the question and there is no judgment in it regardless of the answer.  Its just that I am struggling to find a common frame of reference in what you are writing.

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9 minutes ago, soma said:

Getting back on topic, looks like the 68 is on the move. The last I’d heard they intended to do Les Voiles de St. Barth’s in mid-April. Are they doing a timed run at the start line? 3600 nm in 24 days? Piece of cake.

 

 

Wow if its so.

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Yes, they should be able to manage 150 miles a day!

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11 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Yes, they should be able to manage 150 miles a day!

quite easily, imho. this is just a 6,25 kt average.

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From a boat speed perspective, no problem. Stopping for fuel, breakages, weather window getting out of the Med, leaving the Canaries to starboard? Could be a push. 

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10 hours ago, Wess said:

I am sorry for the derail but I gotta ask.

@dcnblues -you list interests as Gunboat and Corsair 37, have you owned a cat or tri larger than 30 feet and sailed it offshore?

I honestly mean no disrespect with the question and there is no judgment in it regardless of the answer.  Its just that I am struggling to find a common frame of reference in what you are writing.

Well, I wasn't aware that owning a boat was a requisite on this forum for commenting on boats. I've sailed my whole life, raced, done ocean sailing and one long ocean delivery. Never owned one though. I came to this site a long time ago (back when one [or was it two?] magazine(s) published a title that was ONLY custom made boats), when I became obsessed with sailboat design. Very confident I could do better than what was out there. At some point I realized there was no way I was going to improve on what the Phoenicians knew, but new technology did offer enough cool advances to keep me interested. And this forum had a lot of technical expertise and wisdom which was fun to absorb.

I think what makes me an outlier on this board is that while I love fast boats, I simply HATE racing. For too long, the only sailing I could do was to crew races (on the bay in SF), and while I could do it and there's nothing I specifically dislike, I just always would have preferred to go out in good weather, anchor someplace nice, and eat a good meal from a really good deli. And then deciding where to go at a relaxed pace while having a beer or three and relaxing with friends. Much more than listening to a bunch of adrenalized yelling. So while I can applaud and even admire the skills racing develops, there's something about racing that rubs me as antithetical to the experience of sailing. It makes as much sense to me as competitive meditation. Or combat sailplane flying. Maybe I'm just tuned more for the spiritual flow than the competitive groove (or maybe I'm more in need of that pulse-slowing flow).

The other element is that I'm not nostalgic about the old ways of doing things. And I think racers inherently are. Hell, I think a majority of racers STILL resent having to watch the America's Cup on multihulls. Although I imagine they're deeply conflicted about foils. As long as they're hard to learn and dangerous (and as immature tech, they are), a majority of racers will give them a thumbs up (as they did for the new foiling monohulls, with cause, because with foils, who needs multihulls?). But if boats with sensors, cpu's, and rapid compensation algorithms overnight make it easy for civilians to sail a foiling moth, they'll light the torches and declare the computers verbotten. 

For my part, I'd love to see the AC get rid of the concept that human power is necessary for those boats. Thankfully, they banned leg muscles and we no longer have to watch competitive bicycle sailing. I just wish they'd kill the grinders too and have some guy foiling effortlessly through ocean swells reading his laser analysis of the wind while the boat generated all the power the hydraulics needed. At 30 knots. While sipping tea.

(And that's why I love Gunboat).

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4 hours ago, dcnblues said:

. Much more than listening to a bunch of adrenalized yelling. 

My crew love listening to me yelling.... it's why they come.....  mostly  (except for maybe my vegemite and chip sambos)

I have been thinking the same as Soma on the forward cockpit that Gunboat use since they started doing it.... not a fan... but.....

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I'm sure you have a lovely singing voice! Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate a fun competition arena, and being on the winning boat, and going fast. There's actually no way to tell whether I'd ever fly a hull, had I a 68. For sure, one would be tempted, but I'm with SOMA in that I can't imagine doing it from the wheelhouse. It would have to be a tiller that you could feel the water with and the boat under your feet...

I think if I were interviewing crew, I'd list the position(s) available as 'sniveling sycophant.'  "Have Gunboat. Sniveling sycophant position(s) available. Please queue to the left of the pier.  Interview line to rehearse: 'Oooh, you are so mighty and powerful!'" *Then get the job title printed on the t-shirts...

 

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12 hours ago, dcnblues said:

Well, I wasn't aware that owning a boat was a requisite on this forum for commenting on boats.

No intent to offend.  Just observing that there can maybe be a different perspective on all that technology once you actually are an owner operator.  Was curious because the Corsair you mention and Gunboat are actually on opposite ends of the spectrum in that regard.

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Hi everybody

I've been a "little" busy the past few months, but happy to jump back in the thread to address a few queries and give some updates. I apologise for the long post!

Firstly, Gunboat 68-01 CONDOR has left France and she is headed south. To clarify she is not racing to make any race, she will be taking it very easy and will be arriving at her sunny destinations in her own time. Watch this space. If you’re realistic, a new boat always has teething issues and we are closely in touch with Condor to support. The owner and crew have been incredibly patient with our (small) delays and as it stands the build time was 16 months and first of carbon layer applied to handover was less than 18 months. It was an ambitious target from the beginning, especially considering we had to build a project/design team, a factory and a build team in conjunction. 

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this moonshot, even guys like you on these forums, we do try to listen and learn and aren't afraid of -constructive- criticism. 

About the boat:

It isn't for us (totally biased of course!) to judge, but for the people that have been shown the Gunboat 68, she has been met with overwhelmingly positive feedback. We launched the boat on weight (Yes, we launched a catamaran, first in series, on weight), which is for me personally the biggest achievement. We weighed the boat 6 times in production and we have a weight spreadsheet that takes a minute to open it is so loaded with data.

One of the biggest areas we wanted to make a leap in was the interior fitout and finish and so far the feedback says we have done so. It isn't to everyone's taste, but for those people we do offer many different 'moods' inside. The key thing is the actual quality of the furniture, the paint, the fabric. Having usable storage (never ever enough of course!) and aircon vents hidden yet functional, etc, etc. Another area is the steering. It is one place we went completely back to the drawing board. From the wheel all the way to rudder. We now have real finger-tip steering.

Systems are neat and so far it looks like we made the right decisions on components and their placements, we have had the typical new boat teething: Leaks and a few hoses plumbed wrong, Czone setups and tank calibration that takes a little longer on the first boat. 

Structure: we didn't have any issues during seatrials except for a davit sheave block that pulled off the first time we tried to pull the tender up. The boat is on rails, very stiff.

Performance: I will not say too much here other than she hits design polars easily and it will be for the market to judge. All I can say is everyone we took sailing, including some very experienced Gunboat owners and skippers, are convinced the VPLP have nailed it.

Looks: Definitely the most commented on aspect is the exterior design. She's drawing crowds of sailors and non-sailors alike on the dock here in La Grande Motte. As our first owner likes to say: "Life's too short to sail an ugly boat!". 

I can go on and on, but now it is time for the team to debrief and optimise. We aren't perfect and we have several areas we want to work on. As someone mentioned a boat is always a compromise. We can now shift that compromise as we see what people value most and least on board in the real world.

Addressing some previous comments: 

  • We offer a rotating mast on the regatta rig version because those owners really care about the extra power you can generate in the main. The standard rig is lighter because it isn't rotating, you get rid of another function on board and some weight. 90% of our cruising owners mirror the opinion that the complexity and cost of a rotating rig is not worthwhile for their programs. Of course, if pressed we can do a standard rig rotating. 
  • I won't get into the bottomless pit of fwd vs aft steering argument. I will just remind everyone that Gunboat at its core is a cruising boat. A really fast world cruising catamaran. The central helm and pit have proven themselves as being a great central command station. It may not be for everyone, but that is what we do and our owners love it. We talk a little about this in this article: https://www.gunboat.com/gunboat68-deckgear/forward-thinking-gunboat-68/
  • We have listened to the trend to steer aft when racing and offer tillers back there. We also do a remote which puts the traveler and mainsheet in your hands. With the aft winches most of the work moves to the back. I think for those who want it we can certainly investigate moving other things like the jibsheet to the back. In fact, I think we could probably do it on 68-01.
  • A year or so ago Hall pushed us to consider their newest in-boom furling systems but we haven’t seen them live long enough without issues to be comfortable. Regardless this will at best be an option as most of our owners seem to want the lighter solution. Locks/hooks don’t require people on the roof when done well, but it’s always better to have someone up there with eyes on if you can. As someone mentioned we are very open with owners that the Gunboat 68 requires crew, although we do have very skilled owners that go for short trips alone in the 60+ fleet. Fantastic. If we do an owner-operator version every decision will be made to suit the brief.  
  • Finally my personal views on the relationships at play here between the past, current and future. Gunboat is entirely owned by Grand Large Yachting which own several brands, including Outremer. It is not owned or controlled by Outremer. We are in a production facility across the road from Outremer and the engineering ‘brain’ of 35 engineers are all together at the Gunboat site. This includes Ocean Voyager, a day charter brand. Gunboat has dedicated engineers for Interior, Structure, Deck/Rig and dedicated process/production engineers. We somewhat share engineering resource with Outremer and Ocean voyager for systems, this makes sense as there is a big skills overlap here. Our production team is completely dedicated to Gunboat. I have met so many Outremer owners and seen so many launched and sailed on a few. Stunning brand, fantastic loyal and incredibly enthusiastic owners. Here we don’t try to act like we compete or that one is better than the other. We complement each other perfectly and the group gives potential owners a huge variety within the cruise-performance-luxury spectrum to choose from. In the end we are in the same group and the brands support each other, but the path each brand (and product as a result) is walking is a separate one.
  • If you have questions about the boat we’d be happy to try our best to answer them. Like someone said above, does the whole thread need to be about performance? For example: does anybody care to know how well the boat is wired? I like to think the boys did a world class job! Here’s some pics as an example (these were WIP of course). By the way, she doesn’t have a generator. We spent a lot of time on making that a reality on a 68 ft boat with aircon.

    Greenflash

     

IMG_0425.JPG

IMG_0426.JPG

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Hey greenflash, how do you get away with no generator?

Do you have a larger battery than would otherwise be required?

Can the props do Regen?

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Verry nice wiring from one who always tries to end up looking like that. Only two suggestions: better covering of lug ends on large DC cables needed ( a good surveyor will require them) and I much prefer using multiport boxes instead of stacking 'T's for the NMEA backbone. And somewhere down the line, an additional input will be added, ruining the exact placement you show. Better to have a spare on a multiport available.

And LABELS!!! On all fuses

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4 hours ago, Greenflash said:

...Of course, if pressed we can do a standard rig rotating. 

  • I won't get into the bottomless pit of fwd vs aft steering argument. I will just remind everyone that Gunboat at its core is a cruising boat. A really fast world cruising catamaran...
  • We have listened to the trend to steer aft when racing and offer tillers back there. We also do a remote which puts the traveler and mainsheet in your hands...
  • A year or so ago Hall pushed us to consider their newest in-boom furling systems but we haven’t seen them live long enough without issues to be comfortable. Regardless this will at best be an option as most of our owners seem to want the lighter solution. Locks/hooks don’t require people on the roof when done well, but it’s always better to have someone up there with eyes on if you can. As someone mentioned we are very open with owners that the Gunboat 68 requires crew, although we do have very skilled owners that go for short trips alone in the 60+ fleet. Fantastic...

-Thanks very much for the post. Great info!

-re rotating masts on Condor's regatta rig (and the Carib 600 thread), did you ever consider a windex on the end of the longeron? It's my impression there are several advantages (issues correcting for rotation / more relevant wind) . I also haven't seen radar on Condor. Where did they install it, and does the new software easily correct for mast rotation? Or did they decide to rely solely on AIS (hard to imagine, but more photogenic).

-You 'do a remote' ? Please, do tell more. And am I right in that the CZONE system already has a remote smartphone app, and the boat is largely pre-wired for remote control? What are your thoughts on adding throttle(s) and steering to a remote?

-re boom furling, would LOVE to hear weight specs / comparison. Was the Hall system carbon?

-I'm also curious about the lack of a generator. And how Moonwave got a total refit from Torqeedo, but doesn't really publish specs about efficient their setup is. I'm sure you guys have kept an eye on the all electric Gunboat, and would love to hear more about the current thinking.

-On that note, I'm curious whether any buyers have expressly confessed to enough power gluttony to want an additional solar panel on top of the dingy davits. I actually don't think they look bad (provided they're parallel to the coachroof). But sounds like you don't need the extra power. Indeed, how?

-LOVE the boat! And many, many thanks for being good about getting us good, high-def photographs. My computer monitors keep asking me to display them (wait, the voices didn't want me to say that part aloud)...

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13 hours ago, Se7en_speed said:

Hey greenflash, how do you get away with no generator?

Do you have a larger battery than would otherwise be required?

Can the props do Regen?

Firstly the important thing is to analyse load hour by hour. Most builders take the total consumers and total producers and size the system according to that. No need to do anything more because you have a gigantic producer (Genset) you can turn on at any point. One of our engineers made this monster spreadsheet study (yes we are full geeks when it comes to this stuff), taking real world loads that we requested from skippers in the fleet and we 'ran' them on and off hourly in the spreadsheet. We then sat with the owner to understand how he cares to use the boat. When will he likely use aircon, how much engine running is he comfortable with, etc etc. It This gives us a graph of how the SOC of the batteries change over time. We even checked how 2-3 cabins will do with aircon through the night. 68-01 has 4 x 180Ah 24V batteries and because owner of 68-02 wanted longer autonomy overnight he went for 6 x 180Ah. Spreadsheets are great, but there is nothing like the real thing, so looking forward to feedback from Condor!

For the producers we maximise solar, add a hydro generator or two on the transom and use big alternators on the engines. 

For the consumers: Important to be OK with gas stove and oven, although electric can work, depending on how it is used. LED's, smart layout of Czone network to reduce "vampire draw", etc. 

12 hours ago, longy said:

Verry nice wiring from one who always tries to end up looking like that. Only two suggestions: better covering of lug ends on large DC cables needed ( a good surveyor will require them) and I much prefer using multiport boxes instead of stacking 'T's for the NMEA backbone. And somewhere down the line, an additional input will be added, ruining the exact placement you show. Better to have a spare on a multiport available.

And LABELS!!! On all fuses

Thanks longy. DC lugs have covers missing in photo and labels were not completed yet, this was a few weeks ago. Noted on Stacking T's, I don't like that either but not clued up enough to know why. Will look into that. 

9 hours ago, dcnblues said:

-Thanks very much for the post. Great info!

-re rotating masts on Condor's regatta rig (and the Carib 600 thread), did you ever consider a windex on the end of the longeron? It's my impression there are several advantages (issues correcting for rotation / more relevant wind) . I also haven't seen radar on Condor. Where did they install it, and does the new software easily correct for mast rotation? Or did they decide to rely solely on AIS (hard to imagine, but more photogenic).

-You 'do a remote' ? Please, do tell more. And am I right in that the CZONE system already has a remote smartphone app, and the boat is largely pre-wired for remote control? What are your thoughts on adding throttle(s) and steering to a remote?

-re boom furling, would LOVE to hear weight specs / comparison. Was the Hall system carbon?

-I'm also curious about the lack of a generator. And how Moonwave got a total refit from Torqeedo, but doesn't really publish specs about efficient their setup is. I'm sure you guys have kept an eye on the all electric Gunboat, and would love to hear more about the current thinking.

-On that note, I'm curious whether any buyers have expressly confessed to enough power gluttony to want an additional solar panel on top of the dingy davits. I actually don't think they look bad (provided they're parallel to the coachroof). But sounds like you don't need the extra power. Indeed, how?

-LOVE the boat! And many, many thanks for being good about getting us good, high-def photographs. My computer monitors keep asking me to display them (wait, the voices didn't want me to say that part aloud)...

Wind wand - they have a upgraded 1450mm wand on masthead which should stop too much upwash effect, we haven't looked much into longeron wands, I think it probably isn't that worthwhile or required on these types of boats, we aren't doing 40 knots with a wing. I'll ask the B&G guru's next time about this. 

Mast rotation - we started with a sensor on the ram which wasn't accurate enough and ended with a proper industrial magnetic sensor mounted directly to the bottom of the rig. Woah, what a difference. 

Remotes - We bought an off the shelf anchor windless remote and just hard wired the receiver box into the PLC/switchbox of the thing you want to switch. It is pretty robust. Czone has a remote but it doesn't have enough buttons and I don't like piggy backing on systems like that. Keep Czone for house loads. For example we also have winches and hydraulics directly linked to batteries. No more network issues killing winches while your buddy is up the rig! In the same light, I would be very careful to try to do too much with critical functions. In my experience you're asking for trouble. Throttles can be done (But you need another control box at each engine), steering more complex because the only way to auto control now is with Autopilot which is not meant for parking. 

Gonna skip the roller boom question because I can't answer it properly. It was a whole ago, but I remember it was more expensive and heavier without enough upside for us. The Hall system was carbon and actually looked pretty neat.

All electric/Torqeedo. All I can say is that after many grand (failed) tours into hybrid on many brands, the technology is finally really working. We have our finger closely on this pulse... 

Solar on Dinghy davits. It is a funny point. Some Outremer guys thought I was crazy not using that space. It is a great space - always gets sun. But for us it is just too unsightly and our opinion is that the cabin top was designed for solar, with 4KW possible, so why bother with that slab on the back of the stunning aft cockpit. 

I'll see what I can do about high def images, we'd love to be on as many screen backgrounds as possible! :) 

 

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12 hours ago, dcnblues said:

-re boom furling, would LOVE to hear weight specs / comparison. Was the Hall system carbon?

@dcnblues, the Hall furling booms are cored carbon shells and solid carbon mandrels. Hydraulic furling motor (at the back) I imagine would be the standard in this size range (though looking at their website electric and manual are an option). I know the GB90 got a V-Boom (park avenue-style), when they replaced the rig with a Hall-option whereas the GB68 has a mandrel boom with trusses. The GB68 solution will be lightest, V-Boom is heavier and furling boom probably heaviest (though using monohulls for reference here). Looking at the pictures of Kotuku, there was no vang to control boom angle for furling but that also means reduced loads and therefore probably lighter shell than my reference. 

I don't have any ideas as to weights for this size range either so can't help Greenflash with that.

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Poor galley sink location, end of counter, at 1:48:

GB68-galley_sink.thumb.jpg.9fd72e4b35588f13e1761a8386b17a34.jpg

That forward cockpit really dominates the interior, and inevitably exposes all of it to horrible weather, esp. galley and nav station.

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

 

Poor galley sink location, end of counter, at 1:48:

GB68-galley_sink.thumb.jpg.9fd72e4b35588f13e1761a8386b17a34.jpg

That forward cockpit really dominates the interior, and inevitably exposes all of it to horrible weather, esp. galley and nav station.

Do us a favor and show us a similar 68 footer of your design with a better galley. I’ll wait. 

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The sink in the salon is not the main galley sink on a yacht that size so it’s not that important to have 24” on either side for counter space.. it looks right for the job.

 

The forward cockpit is great and doesn’t impede the interior space at all because it is on the exterior of the boat. 

If the weather is really bad you can get to the bow safely from the aft cockpit with those wide side decked and leave the forward cockpit completely sealed off with those large, watertight doors and window panel. 

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I like this design, I don't like sharp corners anywhere on a fast moving catamaran.

Galley up is the only way to go, when short handed.

I rotating wing mast would be a must for me as well.

I would prefer an additional outside steering station, to be able to really feel the weather your sailing in.

What i would like too see is a,  video of the average 55 - 65 year old couple only, easily handling a cat like this, under sail, docking, anchoring, reefing at night in the dark..... you know cruiser stuff.... and how am I ever going to know if I've got a nice big mahi mahi on the fishing line out back, while I'm inside all the time...;)

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

The sink in the salon is not the main galley sink on a yacht that size so it’s not that important to have 24” on either side for counter space.. it looks right for the job.

 

The forward cockpit is great and doesn’t impede the interior space at all because it is on the exterior of the boat. 

If the weather is really bad you can get to the bow safely from the aft cockpit with those wide side decked and leave the forward cockpit completely sealed off with those large, watertight doors and window panel. 

A quick question, why would you go around the deck edge in rough weather, when you wouldn't need too?

Inquiring minds need too know.

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1 hour ago, Keith said:

A quick question, why would you go around the deck edge in rough weather, when you wouldn't need too?

Inquiring minds need too know.

Couple of reasons. (I have done lots of sailing on Gunboats.)  Aft cockpit is mostly dry so wet gear can be stowed there.  If you are going outside in full on conditions you can put you wet gear on leisurely in the aft cockpit and then just walk up the deck.  Super safe.  And if the weather is so warm you don't need everything you still do that so you don't flood the inside of the boat.  In full on conditions there can be quite a bit of water going into the cockpit.  

Actual totally agree with  the comments Soma made about have dual control stations for most of the sails.  Nothing beats the forward cockpit for cruising but for racing in full on conditions not so good.  

I also second the point about pushing the boat.  When you are inside and hear and feel the boat slam you think it is going to break apart.  But outside you don't hear that.  I know nothing is really changing but the feel is so different and you can just push the boat harder.  And regarding the sounds and slamming I always say the boat can take more then the crew especially since I am mostly a cruiser and only race the Gunboats inshore.  Offshore all cruising and taking it real easy.

 

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1 hour ago, Keith said:

A quick question, why would you go around the deck edge in rough weather, when you wouldn't need too?

Inquiring minds need too know.

Just to make sure you don’t get the salon a little wet because that would be terrible!;)

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Check out this video of the Gunboat 68. The helico shoot stuff is around 2 minute mark. Man was that a fun drive. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Keith said:

I like this design, I don't like sharp corners anywhere on a fast moving catamaran.

Galley up is the only way to go, when short handed.

I rotating wing mast would be a must for me as well.

I would prefer an additional outside steering station, to be able to really feel the weather your sailing in.

What i would like too see is a,  video of the average 55 - 65 year old couple only, easily handling a cat like this, under sail, docking, anchoring, reefing at night in the dark..... you know cruiser stuff.... and how am I ever going to know if I've got a nice big mahi mahi on the fishing line out back, while I'm inside all the time...;)

I’d like to see a video of a young 30 -45 year old couple earning enough money to afford something as complex as this and understanding the implications of exiting the salon to the large aft cockpit to reel in that big ol’ rooster mah-mahi.

Of course, after the rooster has been hooked, the hens will attack all the other lines you are trolling and you will have a veritable mahi fest with all the irridescent blood the cockpit can drain out, that is if  you have slowed that significantly to care to fish...:lol:

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2 hours ago, Greenflash said:

Check out this video of the Gunboat 68. The helico shoot stuff is around 2 minute mark. Man was that a fun drive. 

 

 

 

The video (and the boat) are ridiculously cool. Nice work Mr. J. 

See you this week?

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2 hours ago, Greenflash said:

Check out this video of the Gunboat 68. The helico shoot stuff is around 2 minute mark. Man was that a fun drive. 

 

Jesus christ that's a beautiful boat.  Well done Greenflash & team.

To the point made earlier in this thread about both tillers and a forward cockpit having their advantages, which I totally agree with, I could have sworn I read that the GB68 has a tiller option?  Not taken up on SN#1?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Zero Gravitas said:

Jesus christ that's a beautiful boat.  Well done Greenflash & team.

To the point made earlier in this thread about both tillers and a forward cockpit having their advantages, which I totally agree with, I could have sworn I read that the GB68 has a tiller option?  Not taken up on SN#1?

 

 

You can see a gloss triangle back aft in the middle of the side deck. My guess is that's where the aft helm seat goes. 

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So what’s up with some steady footage from the chopper of the boat going #? fast in #? TWS rather than flashing around glossy topsides/picture perfect opulent comfy zone/mood light/serenity etc. etc.

Looks like the weather hull is flying in the oh so brief shot at speed - sustained or brown trousers flash in the pan?

I vividly remember John Shuttleworth showing me two still shots taken a few seconds apart of Elf Aquitaine - the first with the boat flying flat looking killer, the second stuffed in the back of a wave clear back to the mast - gotta see both - less editing please.

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9 hours ago, soma said:

The video (and the boat) are ridiculously cool. Nice work Mr. J. 

See you this week?

Sorry Soma, someone's gotta stay behind and do the real work!  I'll be at some events in due course. Enjoy

8 hours ago, Zero Gravitas said:

Jesus christ that's a beautiful boat.  Well done Greenflash & team.

To the point made earlier in this thread about both tillers and a forward cockpit having their advantages, which I totally agree with, I could have sworn I read that the GB68 has a tiller option?  Not taken up on SN#1?

 

 

Thank you ZG! There are tillers and too be honest we are still doing some final tweaks to those. Integrating nicely into a system and keeping it light to the touch took a bit more than we planned. We'll ship those over to the boat for the first races. 

7 hours ago, boardhead said:

So what’s up with some steady footage from the chopper of the boat going #? fast in #? TWS rather than flashing around glossy topsides/picture perfect opulent comfy zone/mood light/serenity etc. etc.

Looks like the weather hull is flying in the oh so brief shot at speed - sustained or brown trousers flash in the pan?

I vividly remember John Shuttleworth showing me two still shots taken a few seconds apart of Elf Aquitaine - the first with the boat flying flat looking killer, the second stuffed in the back of a wave clear back to the mast - gotta see both - less editing please.

Without making too many excuses - it was gusting +-10 knots with shifts and we didn't have the best guy on the helm (Me!) but we did sustained skimming and a little fly, no brown underpants moments. We hear you and are working on longer out-takes of the sailing shots for a less "edited" video. You're not the first to make this comment. 

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The most remarkable thing about that video (to my eye) is that there's no pitching. VPLP would presumably know what they're doing with hull shapes so I fully expect the 68 will be fast. I've been waiting to see how she performs. Nothing is definitive until she lines up against her sisters but...based on how she moves in that video...she looks quick!

I've always been surprised that no one has built a faster boat since the 1st generation Gunboats (that Pete Melvin drew). You'd think (hope) that learning and knowledge advance through time, but it seems like those first 62's were WAY ahead of their time. Hopefully the 68 has pace on her sisters.

Condor has left the Med, BTW. 

 

IMG_6583.PNG

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Soma,

The (2) Harvey 62s were the benchmark: Light shells and well executed structure. The 2nd two 62s were executed "less well"...they contained a lot of parasitic weight...a concession to poor boat building, bad management and an economic squeeze...….boats 3 and 4 were the only ones commercially built. Execution is everything. The GBs after that were a whole different economic model....M/M or not.....a lot depends upon the builder and the mandate.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, spike said:

Soma,

The (2) Harvey 62s were the benchmark: Light shells and well executed structure. The 2nd two 62s were executed "less well"...they contained a lot of parasitic weight...a concession to poor boat building, bad management and an economic squeeze...….boats 3 and 4 were the only ones commercially built. Execution is everything. The GBs after that were a whole different economic model....M/M or not.....a lot depends upon the builder and the mandate.

The Harveys did a great job, but Elvis is 6204 and is the fastest and 2nd lightest. Coco (6601) is a great boat and super light. Extreme (6606?) is a weapon. I think the common thread is Pete Melvin’s original design, not the Harvey’s. I’ve done extensive refits on 6201, 6202, and 6203. 

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1 hour ago, spike said:

Soma,

The (2) Harvey 62s were the benchmark: Light shells and well executed structure. The 2nd two 62s were executed "less well"...they contained a lot of parasitic weight...a concession to poor boat building, bad management and an economic squeeze...….boats 3 and 4 were the only ones commercially built. Execution is everything. The GBs after that were a whole different economic model....M/M or not.....a lot depends upon the builder and the mandate.

 

 

The Spike...?

 

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Soma,

I'm impressed with your refits on 62/1/02/03....I wish I had such a resume

Do we agree that weight matters? 

Not sure why you separate Melvin from Morelli

That's a well defined established design tandem going back to 62-01

 

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10 minutes ago, PIL66 said:

The Spike...?

 

Yeah. Deal with it.

 

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2 hours ago, spike said:

Soma,

I'm impressed with your refits on 62/1/02/03....I wish I had such a resume

Ha! I think we both know your GB resume is a bit better than mine...I just disagree that 01/02 are meaningfully better than 03/04. You have FAR more time on GBs, I just happen to have far more time on 02 & 03 than you. Uwe was just as good as Phil IMHO. 

2 hours ago, spike said:

Do we agree that weight matters?

Yes, weight matters. Again, I don't think there was a meaningful difference with weight between 01-04. 

2 hours ago, spike said:

Not sure why you separate Melvin from Morelli

That's a well defined established design tandem going back to 62-01

My understanding is the GB62 was Pete's, the HH was Gino. Pete was ETNZ, Gino was Leopard. 

2 hours ago, PIL66 said:

The Spike...?

I won't out spike's real identity, but spike isn't Spike. 

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To understand M&M, you have to understand both men. Pete is the engineer, Gino is the boat builder. Their office is small and I am sure they discussed and collaborated extensively on all the projects listed, but of course there were different design briefs. I think we can all agree that if going for a racer/cruiser multi, M&M or VPLP are your two best choices, though I have to say some of the designs coming out of the Grainger studio these days are looking super sharp. It is also worth mentioning that one of the fastest floating multihulls in the world today was drawn by an independent 3rd party and fortunately picked up by a top level builder. My point is that thanks to the evolution made by M&M and VPLP others can take this foundation and with care draw fast lines. Lightweight, strong, timely execution like on the stunning GB68 is another matter...

I myself would like to know how the GB48 stacks up next to the 62 and new 68. Throw the Outremer 5X into the mix; owning and maintaining an Outremer or GB48 may be in the realm of possible for most of us on this thread but the 68 I think remains a dream toy.

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On 3/24/2019 at 4:12 PM, Greenflash said:

Check out this video of the Gunboat 68. The helico shoot stuff is around 2 minute mark. Man was that a fun drive. 

 

 

 

What a gorgeous boat. OK, I'm ready to buy one but first I have a couple of questions :D

Most are probably silly, and all demonstrate my ignorance, but here it goes:

1. What is the sail at 0.41? High clew and somewhat bigger than the solent, looks like it is rigged on the longeron forward of the beam. Is that a "trinket" or some other downwind sail? Part of the standard package? From the other video, it seems that there is a staysail (j3?) that is self-tacking but the solent (j2?) is not? Some info on the sail plan would be awesome.

2. How do you clip the bridle onto the anchor chain? I can't see any opening in the trampoline or the forward nets on the side of the longeron.

3. The cockpit sliding door is seen open and it looks like it is narrower than the opening. Is the door made of two panels that slide on different tracks? (I think yes, based on previous video.)

4. The sliding roof hatch just above the helm. How is this made waterproof?

5. Is the shot at 3.39 an inside view of the cutouts that can be seen just below the aft blocks? I can see a (folding) cleat, is that what those cutouts are for, passing mooring lines? (I think yes.)

6. Someone mentioned that it is useful to access the fore cockpit from the aft cockpit (for example to keep foulies in the aft cockpit). Makes sense to me. But I don't see steps to go from the aft cockpit to the side decks. Maybe they're hidden in these shots. In fact maybe the 3.39 shot shows one such step. (I think yes.)

7. This is probably a stupid question, why does the solent sheet goes up to the mast? I noticed that on all Gunboats. Other boats I am familiar with have the sheet come out of the deck.

8. Why are there two blocks aft, right above each cutouts? One for the gennaker/spi, the other for ...?

9. Do I see two radars on the spreaders?

10. All Gunboats seem to have short davits with sheaves at the end. I have long davits with sheaves in the middle such that the davits make contact on both sides of the dinghy and keep it completely immobile (with respect to the boat obviously). This eliminates any kind of chafing. Also it allows me to tie up straps from the end of each davits, down under the dinghy, back up to each respective davits. Useful for long passages (I've seen many dinghies break free at the worst possible moment). So, are short davits better? (Other than prettier and lighter, that is.)

11. The windows look like they're made of glass (not acrylic). Am I wrong? What went into that decision I wonder.

...

I welcome all comments, including "you idiot use your head". :lol:

By the way, thank you all for making this forum such a rich and useful source of information.

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On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 7:06 PM, soma said:

Ok, in cruising mode the forward cockpit is hands down the best option. Reefing solo, gybing solo, furling solo, whatever you need to do you can do alone. The rest of the time (in cruising mode) you're WAY shy of hull fly so the doors are closed and the pit is unoccupied. But racing you NEED someone up there.  F*** that. I want to be at the back of the boat with the guys who aren't being punished.

 

Agreed on the forward cockpit. It's one of the best options for safely handling a large boat in large seas and winds > 20knots.

GB leans more towards the racing side than true high speed cruising. 

I recently sailed on the CW 72 and it's a fast powerful boat that can be easily handled single handed, but not easily cleaned. ;)

The GB68 is one wickedly fine looking boat.

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4 hours ago, Whiskey.T said:

What a gorgeous boat. OK, I'm ready to buy one but first I have a couple of questions :D

Most are probably silly, and all demonstrate my ignorance, but here it goes:

1. What is the sail at 0.41? High clew and somewhat bigger than the solent, looks like it is rigged on the longeron forward of the beam. Is that a "trinket" or some other downwind sail? Part of the standard package? From the other video, it seems that there is a staysail (j3?) that is self-tacking but the solent (j2?) is not? Some info on the sail plan would be awesome.

2. How do you clip the bridle onto the anchor chain? I can't see any opening in the trampoline or the forward nets on the side of the longeron.

3. The cockpit sliding door is seen open and it looks like it is narrower than the opening. Is the door made of two panels that slide on different tracks? (I think yes, based on previous video.)

4. The sliding roof hatch just above the helm. How is this made waterproof?

5. Is the shot at 3.39 an inside view of the cutouts that can be seen just below the aft blocks? I can see a (folding) cleat, is that what those cutouts are for, passing mooring lines? (I think yes.)

6. Someone mentioned that it is useful to access the fore cockpit from the aft cockpit (for example to keep foulies in the aft cockpit). Makes sense to me. But I don't see steps to go from the aft cockpit to the side decks. Maybe they're hidden in these shots. In fact maybe the 3.39 shot shows one such step. (I think yes.)

7. This is probably a stupid question, why does the solent sheet goes up to the mast? I noticed that on all Gunboats. Other boats I am familiar with have the sheet come out of the deck.

8. Why are there two blocks aft, right above each cutouts? One for the gennaker/spi, the other for ...?

9. Do I see two radars on the spreaders?

10. All Gunboats seem to have short davits with sheaves at the end. I have long davits with sheaves in the middle such that the davits make contact on both sides of the dinghy and keep it completely immobile (with respect to the boat obviously). This eliminates any kind of chafing. Also it allows me to tie up straps from the end of each davits, down under the dinghy, back up to each respective davits. Useful for long passages (I've seen many dinghies break free at the worst possible moment). So, are short davits better? (Other than prettier and lighter, that is.)

11. The windows look like they're made of glass (not acrylic). Am I wrong? What went into that decision I wonder.

...

I welcome all comments, including "you idiot use your head". :lol:

By the way, thank you all for making this forum such a rich and useful source of information.

Not an intelligent response, but if I owned this boat, my answer to all your questions would be “the crew will take care of it.”  

Edit: that’s not even trying to be a smart ass, just realistic. 

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12 hours ago, Whiskey.T said:

1. What is the sail at 0.41? High clew and somewhat bigger than the solent, looks like it is rigged on the longeron forward of the beam. Is that a "trinket" or some other downwind sail? Part of the standard package? From the other video, it seems that there is a staysail (j3?) that is self-tacking but the solent (j2?) is not? Some info on the sail plan would be awesome.

That is the J0 or FRO (Fractional Reacher) which is a bit of a silly name because it actually goes upwind. We do not have an overlapping solent, so there was a gap in our sail plan in light air upwind. This sail sheets inside the shrouds (or outside for more downwind stuff if you like) to the aft beam. The North guys 3D modelling on this stuff is mind blowing. When you look up you do not think that sail will ever work there, but it is a absolute weapon. 

The J3 (Trinquette inside of forestay) and J2 (Solent on forestay): Either of these can be on the self tacker or led to winches. We have a neat 'peel' arrangement setup. Usually you'd have your J2 live on the self tacker though. 

8 hours ago, Monkey said:

2. How do you clip the bridle onto the anchor chain? I can't see any opening in the trampoline or the forward nets on the side of the longeron.

There is a gap, we just left out a lashing. Our owners rep at the time pushed hard to get the anchor box shorter, this meant actually changing from a Rocna anchor (due to the top ring bar, nothing against their anchors) so that the anchor can get up higher in the box and hence make the chain more reachable. As a result, lighter, stronger and better looking. There is a strop to clip through the chain. Different people prefer different methods here. 

8 hours ago, Monkey said:

3. The cockpit sliding door is seen open and it looks like it is narrower than the opening. Is the door made of two panels that slide on different tracks? (I think yes, based on previous video.)

Correct, double stacking door to port. You can leave it half open (clipped) or fully open. Actually worked out really well. 

8 hours ago, Monkey said:

4. The sliding roof hatch just above the helm. How is this made waterproof?

The same way your sunroof on your car is waterproof. Webasto make this and the same company (INDEL) make tons of car sunroofs. It has an over-center pull down mechanism that pulls onto good seals. On another boat the skipper was so worried about this he asked us to flood the entire roof section. Only until the 'moonroof' was literally under water was he satisfied. A bit of a ridiculous exercise but I guess we proved the point! :lol:

13 hours ago, Whiskey.T said:

5. Is the shot at 3.39 an inside view of the cutouts that can be seen just below the aft blocks? I can see a (folding) cleat, is that what those cutouts are for, passing mooring lines? (I think yes.)

Great question! There is a story here if you care to bear with me: Our exterior designers came to us with three initial concepts: Heritage, Race and Breakthrough. The breakthrough version literally had a hole in the topsides. I remember thinking these dudes are serious space-cadets. Following our motto of "there's no such thing as a bad idea until proven so", we figured this hole can be used for a cleat, lowering the mooring line angle. It can be used as a step when boarding side-on (there is room aft of the cleat for a foot). It can be used to pass through a hose and a shore power cable. And it gives a little extra light in the aft cabin through that small window. The "Breakthrough", as it was henceforth known, was there to stay. 

13 hours ago, Whiskey.T said:

6. Someone mentioned that it is useful to access the fore cockpit from the aft cockpit (for example to keep foulies in the aft cockpit). Makes sense to me. But I don't see steps to go from the aft cockpit to the side decks. Maybe they're hidden in these shots. In fact maybe the 3.39 shot shows one such step. (I think yes.)

I'm glad you say that. The point was to create a step integrated into that area so that is doesn't stand out. In fact we have a huge flying wing step. Photo attached. 

8 hours ago, Monkey said:

7. This is probably a stupid question, why does the solent sheet goes up to the mast? I noticed that on all Gunboats. Other boats I am familiar with have the sheet come out of the deck.

Remember, "No such thing as a stupid question". The self-tacking sheet can only 'self-tack' if it goes upwards. Think about if the car moved from port to stbd and the sheet went directly aft to a winch, it would just stop the car from sliding. The distance to the point on the rig is the same, whether on port or stbd, so it can slide. 

8 hours ago, Monkey said:

8. Why are there two blocks aft, right above each cutouts? One for the gennaker/spi, the other for ...?

One for spinnaker sheet the other for a peel sheet (If you are changing to a different kite) or for a barberhauler/tweaker, to pull in the spinnaker sheet. There are a few scenarios where you would need another block there. We could probably sell the standard boat with one padeye, but the point is to create a platform with suits 80% of the potential clients, so the second padeye is something I felt is a necessity. 

8 hours ago, Monkey said:

9. Do I see two radars on the spreaders?

One radar and one KVH satcoms dome. Owner request to paint them black. Looks pretty sweet! 

13 hours ago, Whiskey.T said:

10. All Gunboats seem to have short davits with sheaves at the end. I have long davits with sheaves in the middle such that the davits make contact on both sides of the dinghy and keep it completely immobile (with respect to the boat obviously). This eliminates any kind of chafing. Also it allows me to tie up straps from the end of each davits, down under the dinghy, back up to each respective davits. Useful for long passages (I've seen many dinghies break free at the worst possible moment). So, are short davits better? (Other than prettier and lighter, that is.)

Ah, a hotly debated topic. I've done both on various boats. The long davits give you the extra support, but often end up longer than the actual stern and look, in my opinion, not as nice. All the Gunboats have short davits and with a good tender setup and a line + little purchase on bow and stern they will stay very solid. I think the skippers also strap right around the boats when doing big crossings to be extra safe. Hasn't been a problem for us so no need to change, so far. 

13 hours ago, Whiskey.T said:

11. The windows look like they're made of glass (not acrylic). Am I wrong? What went into that decision I wonder.

Another big topic I won't get into in detail here. They are tempered glass. Purely aesthetic + longevity decision and even older Gunboats have changed up to glass too. It lasts 'forever' too, doesn't crack or craze. There are options to save weight by going into higher end materials like gorilla glass. Although it is a big project and is very costly. Just to try to stop too much debate about this: The honest answer is that between acrylic, poly-carbonate and glass there are pro's and con's. Nothing is perfect and each one will fulfill a compromise closest to the design brief. For us that was tempered glass. 

13 hours ago, Whiskey.T said:

By the way, thank you all for making this forum such a rich and useful source of information.

 Happy to help as time permits. If you'd like to know more please feel free to PM me or contact us, I think there is an email address brazened at the top of this page :)

GMR_GB68Int_0471.jpg

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13 hours ago, mpenman said:

GB leans more towards the racing side than true high speed cruising. 

 

I understand your point of view. Here's my humble opinion:  Of the +-32 boats sailing I think there are 10 boats that routinely race and all of those boats spend the vast majority of their time cruising. There are millions of miles done and several circumnavigations. Our brief or thought process is always to make the fast-cruiser happy first while trying to maintain options for the racer. I think the image that Gunboats are more race-inspired may stem from the content creation. It is just a function of events that during races we have a lot of photos, videos and press going out. Who doesn't love seeing these types of cats blasting around? I know I do.

Fortunately in this day and age where every boat has a satlink and a drone we are starting to really get some incredible footage of the boats in stunning locations, with people doing what they love most - Cruising. I look forward to more content like this from owners who are keen to share some of their experiences.  

 

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Wow @Greenflash, thanks a lot! All your answers make perfect sense.

On the solent sheet going up, I'm just used to the arrangement on (for example) Catanas (pic included), but this makes perfect sense.

 

Jadimean 18.JPG

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7 hours ago, Greenflash said:

Remember, "No such thing as a stupid question". The self-tacking sheet can only 'self-tack' if it goes upwards. Think about if the car moved from port to stbd and the sheet went directly aft to a winch, it would just stop the car from sliding. The distance to the point on the rig is the same, whether on port or stbd, so it can slide. 

@Greenflash, about that self-tacking sheet again: if the sheet came out at deck level (through a block) and perfectly centered, the car could move freely from port to stbd. I'm guessing that the reason it comes from high up in the mast is to maintain about the same tension as it moves from one side to the other, so that the sheet isn't too slack when the car passes the centerline. I could be wrong.

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41 minutes ago, Whiskey.T said:

@Greenflash, about that self-tacking sheet again: if the sheet came out at deck level (through a block) and perfectly centered, the car could move freely from port to stbd. I'm guessing that the reason it comes from high up in the mast is to maintain about the same tension as it moves from one side to the other, so that the sheet isn't too slack when the car passes the centerline. I could be wrong.

Remember you want to be able to pull huge amounts of clew load without affecting the car. If the sheet was inboard it would pull the car inboard. With the sheet going up it loads the car 'upwards' and yes keeping relative tension is good, but losing some when coming through the tack isn't a bad thing. That's why on some boats you see the track actually inverts on CL. We also have a car inhaul line that is sheeted to CL, this way you can inhaul the car at will. (because the pressure on the sail is pushing the car outboard)

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22 hours ago, Monkey said:

Not an intelligent response, but if I owned this boat, my answer to all your questions would be “the crew will take care of it.”  

Edit: that’s not even trying to be a smart ass, just realistic. 

Whilst there are some owners that want a crew there are also owners that prefer the tranquility and privacy that comes with managing the boat yourself. A well thought out boat should only require a single person to manage in cruising mode.

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13 hours ago, Greenflash said:

Fortunately in this day and age where every boat has a satlink and a drone we are starting to really get some incredible footage of the boats in stunning locations, with people doing what they love most - Cruising. I look forward to more content like this from owners who are keen to share some of their experiences.  

 

Well noted. Most footage is around the buoys and not on a broad reach to a nice anchorage.  Frankly most GB footage is fantastic and gets everyone's juices flowing to go sailing.

As I noted prior, the designers have done one hell of job of making that boat look good.....

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1 minute ago, mpenman said:

Whilst there are some owners that want a crew there are also owners that prefer the tranquility and privacy that comes with managing the boat yourself. A well thought out boat should only require a single person to manage in cruising mode.

I agree completely, but at the end of the day, a GB68 isn’t a super forgiving tank of a cruiser. I won’t be rude and call it high strung, but it’s an ultralight cruiser with a big sail plan. It just kind of lends itself to needing a few helpers. 

Of course, I’d think most Gunboats could happily romp around with deep reefs already set and be easily managed at typical “well thought out cruiser” speeds. 

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22 hours ago, Monkey said:

Not an intelligent response, but if I owned this boat, my answer to all your questions would be “the crew will take care of it.”  

Edit: that’s not even trying to be a smart ass, just realistic. 

 

30 minutes ago, mpenman said:

Whilst there are some owners that want a crew there are also owners that prefer the tranquility and privacy that comes with managing the boat yourself. A well thought out boat should only require a single person to manage in cruising mode.

I agree completely. A 66 or 68 footer seems big, but when you share that space with  two other people for more than a year it starts to feel really cramped. If you have kids, it gets worse. You also don't get the same feeling of accomplishment when a professional skipper handles your boat (I least I wouldn't).

But yeah, sailing and maintaining such a boat requires a high level of commitment (not just money), and the people who can afford it usually have other obligations so they hire a crew. 

In any case, even tough my questions were specific to this boat they were intended to serve as inspiration for more general purposes.

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17 minutes ago, Whiskey.T said:

 

I agree completely. A 66 or 68 footer seems big, but when you share that space with  two other people for more than a year it starts to feel really cramped. If you have kids, it gets worse. You also don't get the same feeling of accomplishment when a professional skipper handles your boat (I least I wouldn't).

But yeah, sailing and maintaining such a boat requires a high level of commitment (not just money), and the people who can afford it usually have other obligations so they hire a crew. 

In any case, even tough my questions were specific to this boat they were intended to serve as inspiration for more general purposes.

Yep. If I owned one, I’d prefer the privacy of not needing crew, but reality sets in if you want the big boat. 

As an example, when I used to take care of a 68’ mono, I’d guess I spent about 200 hours onboard for every hour the owner did. However, everything was always perfect and ready to go, and in whatever location he needed it. 

Horses for courses. 

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Sure, I agree with you @Monkey.

The biggest issue for me is maintenance. When my wife and I sail, we leave for 6 months (shortest trip) to almost 2 years (longest). During that time we like to be on our own. We may invite people to have dinner or drinks, but we like to sail alone, especially the long passages (ocean crossings). I also do all the maintenance, fixes, etc. and I don't mind at all being totally focused on the boat.

But between trips we leave the boat in a marina and we both have to do some work on land. It is during that time that I wish I had someone take care of the boat. Obviously someone comes and clean below and above, but nobody starts the engines, genset, watermaker, various pumps, etc., and so invariably something goes wrong when we come back.

And the thing is that a Gunboat is more than a boat, it is a status symbol. By owning it you signal to the world that you are special, successful, a perfectionist, you have good tastes, you like speed, thrill, winning, etc. So you can't leave those topsides dirty, the boat has to be impeccable at all times. You need someone on board to maintain it.

And once you have a pro on board, I'm guessing that it becomes harder to learn certain things. For example, I learned to dock my boat because I had to. I was terrified more than once when I entered unknown marinas with the wind blowing at 25+kn. With a pro skipper with me, especially on a GB68, I would have left him to do it and I would have learned nothing.

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

I agree completely, but at the end of the day, a GB68 isn’t a super forgiving tank of a cruiser. I won’t be rude and call it high strung, but it’s an ultralight cruiser with a big sail plan. It just kind of lends itself to needing a few helpers. 

Of course, I’d think most Gunboats could happily romp around with deep reefs already set and be easily managed at typical “well thought out cruiser” speeds. 

Especially with a boom furler...

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15 hours ago, Greenflash said:

...The same way your sunroof on your car is waterproof. Webasto make this and the same company (INDEL) make tons of car sunroofs. It has an over-center pull down mechanism that pulls onto good seals. On another boat the skipper was so worried about this he asked us to flood the entire roof section. Only until the 'moonroof' was literally under water was he satisfied. A bit of a ridiculous exercise but I guess we proved the point! :lol:

...One radar and one KVH satcoms dome. Owner request to paint them black. Looks pretty sweet!

To be clear, the sunroof has drains around the perimeter and gravity drains them, right?

Condor has a rotating mast, so does the radar software (in 2019) simply compensate for the angle, or is there a manual adjustment / calibration option? How does one know the mast rotation angle? Is there a mechanical protractor at the base of the mast, or do you have an electronic measurement that feeds into the nav / control screen? Just curious.

Thanks so much for the dialogue! It's a real pleasure. It's very hard to not get hyperbolic about this boat. But a guy in the youtube comments for your recent video said it better than I could: "There has never been a better sail boat than this. I have been waiting all my life for this moment."

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25 minutes ago, Whiskey.T said:

Sure, I agree with you @Monkey.

The biggest issue for me is maintenance. When my wife and I sail, we leave for 6 months (shortest trip) to almost 2 years (longest). During that time we like to be on our own. We may invite people to have dinner or drinks, but we like to sail alone, especially the long passages (ocean crossings). I also do all the maintenance, fixes, etc. and I don't mind at all being totally focused on the boat.

But between trips we leave the boat in a marina and we both have to do some work on land. It is during that time that I wish I had someone take care of the boat. Obviously someone comes and clean below and above, but nobody starts the engines, genset, watermaker, various pumps, etc., and so invariably something goes wrong when we come back.

And the thing is that a Gunboat is more than a boat, it is a status symbol. By owning it you signal to the world that you are special, successful, a perfectionist, you have good tastes, you like speed, thrill, winning, etc. So you can't leave those topsides dirty, the boat has to be impeccable at all times. You need someone on board to maintain it.

And once you have a pro on board, I'm guessing that it becomes harder to learn certain things. For example, I learned to dock my boat because I had to. I was terrified more than once when I entered unknown marinas with the wind blowing at 25+kn. With a pro skipper with me, especially on a GB68, I would have left him to do it and I would have learned nothing.

No arguments there. Keep in mind though, (I’m guessing, but it’s a good guess), many GB owners are already experienced multihull sailors. Sure, there’s bound to be a few “trophy” owners, but most of those trend towards mega yachts  

Going back to my example, the owner was a damn fine sailor with a lifetime of experience.  However, he had a pile of companies to run (including North Sails and Southern Spars), so life was just better if we had his toy ready to play where and when he wanted it.  I can respect that.

 

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12 minutes ago, dcnblues said:

To be clear, the sunroof has drains around the perimeter and gravity drains them, right?

Did you not read what he wrote?  I’m not aware of a single modern vehicle out there with “gravity drains” in a moon roof. It’s a big rubber seal. 

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55 minutes ago, dcnblues said:

Especially with a boom furler...

I know you have some weird man crush on boom furlers, but I’d love to hear your explanation as to why they don’t exist on the Ultimes. You went on and on about the performance gains.

Neither cost nor engineering effort would be the reason. 

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2 hours ago, dcnblues said:

a Especially with a boom furler...

I've had both. I would prefer to never have a boom furler again. They need critical vang angles to get them to furl correctly and when it's 2am and the wind pipes up, they hang up like drunken sailor at rowdy bar in the BVI's.

A simple slab reefing system with lazy jacks is way easier and better on every point of sail and is (in IMHO) the only way to go.

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2 hours ago, Monkey said:

Yep. If I owned one, I’d prefer the privacy of not needing crew, but reality sets in if you want the big boat. 

As an example, when I used to take care of a 68’ mono, I’d guess I spent about 200 hours onboard for every hour the owner did. However, everything was always perfect and ready to go, and in whatever location he needed it. 

Horses for courses. 

Well explained. There are working owners and there are sailing owners. Both very passionate and both intrinsically different in their needs. As Whiskey T noted people assume that a GB is run by a professional crew. I'm of the opinion that there are families and owners out there that want to sail a high performance boat safely, by themselves, with the caveat that they understand, but don't necessarily maintain all the systems themselves. As 'Greenflash' noted, most of the GB's are out cruising, which is awesome...…...I'm of the opinion that this boat is an awesome achievement, both in time to build and in performance metrics.

We should celebrate and toast to the folks that made it happen in the yard. No easy feat....

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5 hours ago, Monkey said:

As an example, when I used to take care of a 68’ mono, I’d guess I spent about 200 hours onboard for every hour the owner did. However, everything was always perfect and ready to go, and in whatever location he needed it. 

Wow.  

So assuming you billed out at, say $100/hr (what decent guys around her charge) owner's cost of use is $20,000 per hour *on top* of sails, parts, dockage, cost of capital, etc. etc... 

Man it's hard to imagine being that immune to expenditure.  Certainly makes chartering look cheap.  

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2 minutes ago, socalrider said:

Wow.  

So assuming you billed out at, say $100/hr (what decent guys around her charge) owner's cost of use is $20,000 per hour *on top* of sails, parts, dockage, cost of capital, etc. etc... 

Man it's hard to imagine being that immune to expenditure.  Certainly makes chartering look cheap.  

I knew a guy who was engineer on a 143’ mono (sans air con so a constant 50’C in the plant room) with a permanent crew of 6 who kept the thing schmick as and he didn’t meet the owner (ie owner hadn’t been on board) for the first two years. 

“Take it to NY, I’ll use it there”

“oops change of plan, take it to Caribbean” 

“oops change of plan, take it to the Med”

etc. 

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7 hours ago, dcnblues said:

To be clear, the sunroof has drains around the perimeter and gravity drains them, right?

 Condor has a rotating mast, so does the radar software (in 2019) simply compensate for the angle, or is there a manual adjustment / calibration option? How does one know the mast rotation angle? Is there a mechanical protractor at the base of the mast, or do you have an electronic measurement that feeds into the nav / control screen? Just curious.

Thanks so much for the dialogue! It's a real pleasure. It's very hard to not get hyperbolic about this boat. But a guy in the youtube comments for your recent video said it better than I could: "There has never been a better sail boat than this. I have been waiting all my life for this moment."

The Sunroof is 'top mounted', not in a recess. I remember challenging Christophe Chedal Anglay to integrate it without a recess, of course he would want it completely flush! So he designed a slowly angling recess going fwd, which means the whole area self-drains fwd. Then there is a little gutter fwd of the recess to stop those annoying drips in the fwd cockpit and carbon tubes that lead the drips outboard. 

The B&G processor gets the rotation angle from the electronic (industrial magnetic) sensor under the rig. It needs to be calibrated of course and we measure/mark it from the real boat. The radar angle offset is done automatically as is all the wind angles. You can also display your rotation angle on a screen. 

I did see that Youtube comment and had a chuckle. He/she's more excited than I am! Love it.

5 hours ago, mpenman said:

 

We should celebrate and toast to the folks that made it happen in the yard. No easy feat....

Thank you! I will make sure that message is passed on, there's an incredible team of boat geeks here who are pretty passionate about what they do. They only "slack off" when the breeze is up and they sneak out to kite, or I catch them pulling their A-cat in the paint booth for a late night fair and paint. We let them get away with that of course... 

OWNER/CREW Subject: 

We find that on the bigger Gunboats (60+), putting aside yacht handling, the main reason for crew/help is just care and maintenance. As someone said above, it is a nice boat and indeed expensive. It needs cleaning and and maintenance that an owner could manage but that would become quite the job! We've had pure owner operators, we've had owners that hired just day workers, some have had a first mate or 'yacht hand' to join them and some owners are simply happy to enjoy the time relaxing and/or at the helm while the crew take care of the rest. In the end, it is all their choice. 

What I can say is, given the type of high performance product this is, the vast majority are already keen sailors and they all get involved actively. 

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3 hours ago, socalrider said:

Wow.  

So assuming you billed out at, say $100/hr (what decent guys around her charge) owner's cost of use is $20,000 per hour *on top* of sails, parts, dockage, cost of capital, etc. etc... 

Man it's hard to imagine being that immune to expenditure.  Certainly makes chartering look cheap.  

Wasn’t even close to that. There was a full time salaried boat captain, then 3 of us who worked summers (the actual sailing season) for roughly twice what minimum wage was. It was a great gig for a bunch of college kids that needed a summer job. 

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13 hours ago, Monkey said:

Did you not read what he wrote?  I’m not aware of a single modern vehicle out there with “gravity drains” in a moon roof. It’s a big rubber seal. 

Wow, my favorite kind of criticism: arrogant and completely uninformed. Here you go, sparky: https://itstillruns.com/clean-out-sunroof-drain-holes-5949244.html

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2 minutes ago, dcnblues said:

Wow, my favorite kind of criticism: arrogant and completely uninformed. Here you go, sparky: https://itstillruns.com/clean-out-sunroof-drain-holes-5949244.html

He already corrected me. I was wrong, but his initial description described the same thing I did. 

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12 hours ago, Monkey said:

I know you have some weird man crush on boom furlers, but I’d love to hear your explanation as to why they don’t exist on the Ultimes. You went on and on about the performance gains.

Neither cost nor engineering effort would be the reason. 

Why quote posts you don't seem to understand? Or use phrases you don't seem clear about? (Maybe go look up  'man crush''). 

I repeatedly expressed interest in the weight penalties associated with boom furlers, and argued for them for their cruising merits. For competition, please refer yourself to the long list of multihulls (including Fujin) that have turtled in Ocean races, and who consequently didn't finish, because they didn't have an easy way for tired crews / singlehanders to reef when at wind limits. You have to finish the race to win it. You want to bet no round-the-world boat is going to try boom furling in the next decade on that basis? I wouldn't...

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28 minutes ago, Monkey said:

He already corrected me. I was wrong, but his initial description described the same thing I did. 

Thanks for the awesome apology for the uninformed personal attack, but no, the first thing he mentioned was that it used the same mechanism as a car, i.e. internal drain tubes which defeat the surface tension problem on conventional top hatches. I asked him to confirm that as it's interesting and there doesn't exist a sailor who's never been frustrated by a leaky hatch.

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6 hours ago, Greenflash said:

OWNER/CREW Subject: 

We find that on the bigger Gunboats (60+), putting aside yacht handling, the main reason for crew/help is just care and maintenance. As someone said above, it is a nice boat and indeed expensive. It needs cleaning and and maintenance that an owner could manage but that would become quite the job! We've had pure owner operators, we've had owners that hired just day workers, some have had a first mate or 'yacht hand' to join them and some owners are simply happy to enjoy the time relaxing and/or at the helm while the crew take care of the rest. In the end, it is all their choice. 

What I can say is, given the type of high performance product this is, the vast majority are already keen sailors and they all get involved actively. 

Flash - Do you have any idea as to what % of GB's out there are solely owner operators (ie no full or part time professional crew). The boats generally seem so system intensive (no judgement intended or implied) that I can't imagine many owners capable of maintaining and fixing it all without professional help.

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7 minutes ago, Wess said:

Flash - Do you have any idea as to what % of GB's out there are solely owner operators (ie no full or part time professional crew). The boats generally seem so system intensive (no judgement intended or implied) that I can't imagine many owners capable of maintaining and fixing it all without professional help.

Hi Wess, I don't know all the history but as far as I know the 6 x Gunboat 48's and the 55's are owner operator boats, although I know some people take help on board for longer passages and do use day workers. The 48's were very systems-simple. I can't speak for all, but if I buy a 2+ mil dollar boat I'd find better ways to spend my time than scrubbing hull bottoms. ;) 

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2 minutes ago, Greenflash said:

Hi Wess, I don't know all the history but as far as I know the 6 x Gunboat 48's and the 55's are owner operator boats, although I know some people take help on board for longer passages and do use day workers. The 48's were very systems-simple. I can't speak for all, but if I buy a 2+ mil dollar boat I'd find better ways to spend my time than scrubbing hull bottoms. ;) 

Can I take it you are volunteering to scrub the 3 hulls on mine, LOL!  Thank you!!  :D  That would certainly endear me to GB and Grand Large.

I am with you on the 48s.  And in theory the systems on the others make it easier to sail in settled conditions without lots of crew.  But I am curious to what extent any of these bigger GB's can actually be true owner operator boats.  And not trying to hold that to some unreasonable standard. I think we all (owner operators) take on occasional day workers for some more complex repairs (though I do scrub the bottoms on my boat... good exercise and an excuse to not run that day) and even a 3rd or 4th crew for extended voyages.  But the reality is we want to be able to sail our own boat, maintain and do rudimentary repairs on the systems, and be able to keep her running for extended periods without needing outside assistance.

For us there is pride factor in that.  Like getting to the bottom of the Grand Canyon or the top of the Grand Teton.  Some sit at the top of the Canyon and peer over the side.  Fewer still ride a mule to the bottom.  We take a pride in having hiked it down and back.  Not many do a rim to rim.  Sure its hard but there is a reward in that.  Like scrubbing the bottom and personally knowing the condition of stuff down there.

Anyway, love your 68. Just wondering if folks like me can do what we like to do in it and guessing its just beyond the ma and pa owner operator.  That's why I was asking what % of the bigger ones are truly owner operated (ie no paid crew).

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21 minutes ago, Wess said:

Can I take it you are volunteering to scrub the 3 hulls on mine, LOL!  Thank you!!  :D  That would certainly endear me to GB and Grand Large.

I am with you on the 48s.  And in theory the systems on the others make it easier to sail in settled conditions without lots of crew.  But I am curious to what extent any of these bigger GB's can actually be true owner operator boats.  And not trying to hold that to some unreasonable standard. I think we all (owner operators) take on occasional day workers for some more complex repairs (though I do scrub the bottoms on my boat... good exercise and an excuse to not run that day) and even a 3rd or 4th crew for extended voyages.  But the reality is we want to be able to sail our own boat, maintain and do rudimentary repairs on the systems, and be able to keep her running for extended periods without needing outside assistance.

For us there is pride factor in that.  Like getting to the bottom of the Grand Canyon or the top of the Grand Teton.  Some sit at the top of the Canyon and peer over the side.  Fewer still ride a mule to the bottom.  We take a pride in having hiked it down and back.  Not many do a rim to rim.  Sure its hard but there is a reward in that.  Like scrubbing the bottom and personally knowing the condition of stuff down there.

Anyway, love your 68. Just wondering if folks like me can do what we like to do in it and guessing its just beyond the ma and pa owner operator.  That's why I was asking what % of the bigger ones are truly owner operated (ie no paid crew).

Ha! I will pretty much do anything for payment in beer. I think your question deserves a better answer and thanks for putting it into perspective from an owners point of view. I'll definitely keep that in mind more often in future. 

I don't know how all the 60+ boats are used but the simple answer is that the vast majority of them do use some form of full time crew. That being said I have a few examples to point out and it all depends on the owner's personal ability, time availability and the boat's program (Race,cruise, both?). A Gunboat 60 that used to be run out of Thailand by an owner and his wife, both very good sailors and 60+ years. They double handed the boat and only used day workers. Gunboat 60 Moementum has a single skipper who brings on people from time to time to help. PJ had his original 62 TRIBE designed and built so he can cruise with a family around the world, which he did. That boat is still doing short handed trips. An owner who frequents this forum is currently looking after his own boat while he is between crews. So it can be done.

I think the point is that you can choose which mountain peak you wish to climb. I don't think any of our owners are the people riding the mules. Every single one I have met are keen to get involved hands-on as much as possible. And that, as you rightly say, makes them take pride in their boats even more. 

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1 hour ago, Se7en_speed said:

Nice video of them cruising at 20 knots

 

 

wow. 20+kt and it looks like a walk in the park!

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I knew two of the early GB66, and they both had permanent crew, both very nice couples. In each case the man was the skipper and the woman would help in other ways. If the owner wanted to sail, the couple would come along, otherwise they maintained the boat. In each case the actual owner knew how to sail but I think would not have been able (physically) or willing to handle the boat by himself (even with the wife helping).

To reuse my example above, there is no question that in both cases it was the pro skipper who maneuvered the boat in marinas. I don't doubts that the owners had experience doing that (one of them had owned several boats, even a trawler), but I am almost certain that they had minimum experience maneuvering a GB66 in a tight spot with cross winds, as they always let the skipper do it.

As far as I know (and I could certainly be wrong here), all the original owners of GB66 had some form of permanent help on board (one or two people).

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Damn, I was hoping to "pay" you for cleaning the bottom @Greenflashby letting you diagnose my AP drive and batts/charging problem... while I drank the beer (actually ginger beer and dark rum.... yum).  I need to find an EE type that likes that kinda multimeter stuff LOL.  And I ain't hating on the Canyon mule riders.  Or even the helicopter riders.  Its all good.

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Re: the owner operator dream, one of the owners of a GB66 said it best when he said the 66 was the perfectly wrong size. Too big to owner operate, too small to get the crew out from underfoot. 

There ARE some owners out there who seemingly co-exist happily with their crew on a quasi full-time basis. It takes a special match, though. The crew have to be great and the owners have to be great. It's a tough dynamic for sure. 

Here's an instructive anecdote. One of the owners of a 62 was successfully running the boat himself. One night his family came to visit us in Sag Harbor. We arranged a sitter for the guy's kids and we went on a double date for dinner. After dinner we dropped he and his wife off and returned the sitter to shore. By the time I got back aboard I'd gotten a couple of panicked call from the owner. The toilet had clogged, the holding tank had "exploded", the bilges were full of poo, and the whole boat stank. He was wondering if there were any late night boat plumbers (and maybe hoping I'd volunteer to help). No one wants to deal with someone else's poo, including contractors and day workers. I wanted to be friendly...Im happy to coordinate a babysitter or a mooring, but I ain't cleaning his families poop. It was very shortly after that episode that he decided he needed crew.

I don't KNOW that the two events were related, but in general crew are the ones who lay upside down in the bilge replacing pumps, that do the oil changes, that pull the wads of hair out of the sump pump filters, who lay awake at night worrying about the mooring, who dive in to untangle the anchor, who do the dishes. Reefing is easy (I'm looking at you DNC), docking is learnable. Crew do the shit jobs. And unfortunately you can't just schedule the shit jobs to be done after you get off the boat at the end of your week aboard. If the bilges are full of poop you have to fix it then. If you blow up a high pressure hose on your watermaker you have to clean it up (and fix it) ASAP. 

What's different about 60'+ boat? A GB55 has two heads. A GB66 has up to 5. A GB55 has 2 showers vs 5 on a 66. A gb55 has 4 aircon units vs (up to) 7 aircon units on a 66. On the HH66 and GB68 I had them do jack and Jill showers to reduce the number of showers. That also resulted in two holding tanks instead of 4. 

Last comment (which is a counter argument to what I've said above... and don't tell my old boss) but we had Zenyatta down to about 15 hours of maintenance work per week. Once you get a boat under your thumb it's easy. It just takes several years of close attention to get to that point. A new boat is NOT less work. 

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