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Gunboat 68

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7 minutes ago, HotCarNut said:

Makes you wonder if Gunboat under GLY ownership will put out something in the 50’ range as it was (and is) incredibly popular.  Maybe GLY doesn’t want the competition with the Outremer 5X already in that space.

With Gunboat hemorrhaging money, 6 unsold secondhand GBs, and Outremer profitable I'd definitely prioritize the Outremer line.

 

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That's the type of clearminded thinking that Gunboat needed 10 years ago...

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I believe that Traverse, which is a 48, is for sale.

John John owns Falcor.

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8 hours ago, soma said:

With Gunboat hemorrhaging money, 6 unsold secondhand GBs, and Outremer profitable I'd definitely prioritize the Outremer line.

 

GB is hemorrhaging money under GLY?  THAT would be a surprise with both lead boats already sold and at significantly higher prices than old GB lists.  Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure there have been cost overruns like just about every early production boat in a series.  Big difference between that and hemorrhaging though...

As for the used GBs, I’m sure GLY wants to keep the market tight and resale values strong.  That being said, I can guarantee their priority is selling new production 68s.

I’m wondering how much cross-pollination there will be between GB & Outremer as time goes on.  You’d think that GLY would want to share best practices in build & production, as well as components and systems “under the skin”.

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11 hours ago, mpenman said:

I believe that Traverse, which is a 48, is for sale.

John John owns Falcor.

If Traverse is for sale the owner is using a very subtle or targeted marketing campaign that does not seem to include the internet. That might actually be the right strategy if the owner does not want to be bothered by tire kickers.

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11 hours ago, HotCarNut said:

I’m wondering how much cross-pollination there will be between GB & Outremer as time goes on.  You’d think that GLY would want to share best practices in build & production, as well as components and systems “under the skin”.

And indeed it seems that they are sharing their brain-trust.  Check out sailpuffin.com.  Specifically, the entry on May 18, 2019 ('Chasing Performance', section titled 'Help from Gunboat'), in which they talk about shared hull construction/infusion technology.. And then the entry on June 29, 2019 ('A Green Puffin', section titled 'Solar Power'), in which they talk about using some similar equipment.  

FYI, Sail Puffin is a newly built Outremer 4X.  It was built for the former owners of Sail Wildling (sailwildling.com), an Outremer 5X.

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10 minutes ago, J the landlocked dreamer said:

And indeed it seems that they are sharing their brain-trust.  Check out sailpuffin.com.  Specifically, the entry on May 18, 2019 ('Chasing Performance', section titled 'Help from Gunboat'), in which they talk about shared hull construction/infusion technology.. And then the entry on June 29, 2019 ('A Green Puffin', section titled 'Solar Power'), in which they talk about using some similar equipment.  

FYI, Sail Puffin is a newly built Outremer 4X.  It was built for the former owners of Sail Wildling (sailwildling.com), an Outremer 5X.

Lol...I actually posted that link in another thread a couple of months back!

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Just a couple of thoughts on GLY strategy if any:

The trouble with “keeping the secondary market tight” is that it means that the oversupply of boats for sale is cleared via them sitting at the dock and physically depreciating until something clears the logjam (eg owner’s death, auction, etc). The market balance is restored, but at a lower equilibrium. 

The blue line shows catamaran buyers, the red line sellers. Put this together with the financial optimism of 1990s and 2000s replaced with it’s mirror image now and depreciation rates on 10-20 year old cats go to quite a bit more than 10% per year. By holding out for a better price the sellers create an opportunity for the first mover seller to sell in the “tight market” at a 20% discount compared to the eventual clearing prices for the others being 30-50% lower.

Gunboats have benefited from the rising inequality propping up the top 1%, but this probably doesn’t apply to the second hand boats — the steep inequality curve means that the boat depreciation curve is equally steep.

CF6634D0-BFFF-41C7-BAAA-9F78E0AD4DF1.jpeg

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5 hours ago, KC375 said:

If Traverse is for sale the owner is using a very subtle or targeted marketing campaign that does not seem to include the internet. That might actually be the right strategy if the owner does not want to be bothered by tire kickers.

 

Are you calling me a tire kicker, just because I want him to take my offer of 250.000 EUR for the boat seriously? :-) 

Paul 

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2 minutes ago, toolbar said:

Are you calling me a tire kicker, just because I want him to take my offer of 250.000 EUR for the boat seriously? :-) 

Paul 

Alright. If that's how you want to be...€260,000!

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€300,000!

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I was gonna raise to €260,500. I can't keep up with this!

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3 hours ago, EarthBM said:

Just a couple of thoughts on GLY strategy if any:

The trouble with “keeping the secondary market tight” is that it means that the oversupply of boats for sale is cleared via them sitting at the dock and physically depreciating until something clears the logjam (eg owner’s death, auction, etc). The market balance is restored, but at a lower equilibrium. 

The blue line shows catamaran buyers, the red line sellers. Put this together with the financial optimism of 1990s and 2000s replaced with it’s mirror image now and depreciation rates on 10-20 year old cats go to quite a bit more than 10% per year. By holding out for a better price the sellers create an opportunity for the first mover seller to sell in the “tight market” at a 20% discount compared to the eventual clearing prices for the others being 30-50% lower.

Gunboats have benefited from the rising inequality propping up the top 1%, but this probably doesn’t apply to the second hand boats — the steep inequality curve means that the boat depreciation curve is equally steep.

CF6634D0-BFFF-41C7-BAAA-9F78E0AD4DF1.jpeg

I think Irma provided some additional "tightness" to the market. Yes this was mostly in the charter type boats but that pushes up prices in the adjoining market segments. That tightness will start to come off over the next couple of years so along with demographics and the ginni index...I'm counting on a big drop in price in the 2022-2025 range when I hope to be buying. (who says hope is not a method).

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40 minutes ago, KC375 said:

I think Irma provided some additional "tightness" to the market. Yes this was mostly in the charter type boats but that pushes up prices in the adjoining market segments. That tightness will start to come off over the next couple of years so along with demographics and the ginni index...I'm counting on a big drop in price in the 2022-2025 range when I hope to be buying. (who says hope is not a method).

Don’t forget that supply of cats in the Gunboat market sector has increased too over that time helping to further decrease prices.  Boats from Outremer, HH, Marsaudon, OE, etc are all taking buyers that may have looked at used Gunboats in the past.  As those owners turn over those boats (high-end fast cruiser-racers) and THEY hit the used market, it will just exacerbate the issue.  Kind of what has happened in large motor yachts between 100-200’.  Eventually,it will all balance out....probably just in time for a massive recession.

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56 minutes ago, HotCarNut said:

Eventually,it will all balance out....probably just in time for a massive recession.

That's the scariest part for GBs financial situation. One boat under construction, none in the pipeline, at the apex of the market, and 3 years after buying the brand. If you aren't selling boats now, you certainly won't survive the next downturn. 

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On 8/8/2019 at 1:56 AM, Tylo said:

Indeed, Gunboat 60's "Fault Tolerant" and "Arethusa" as well as Gunboat 57 "VaiVai" seem to be for sale on the Gunboat site. I think Extreme H2O might have found a new owner? That's pretty cool, I wonder what she ended up selling for in the end.

Extreme H2O Is just about to complete a major service of Rig, rigging, mechanical systems, offshore safety gear maintenance  and cosmetic maintenance... in fact the boat is now Matterhorn White.  

It will be ready to sail by early September 

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3 hours ago, soma said:

That's the scariest part for GBs financial situation. One boat under construction, none in the pipeline, at the apex of the market, and 3 years after buying the brand. If you aren't selling boats now, you certainly won't survive the next downturn. 

I’m advising an early stage business producing a luxury / discretionary product with a long production cycle (11 months from first spend to revenue). It’s a half dozen years old and finally solidly breakeven. The kids involved have never experienced a business climate other than the current one – the longest US economic expansion since the civil war. They don’t understand why I’m being such a hard ass to drive them to substantial profitability this year...doing drastic things like scheduling meetings or work on weekends. I fear if they are not solidly profitable with a well embedded recession proof plan B on the shelf by Christmas...they may not get another chance. If I’m wrong they’ll just think I’m an old workaholic crack pot...if I’m right the kids might even begrudgingly acknowledge I’ve saved them from a fate worse than death (having to go work as a wage slave in someone else’s business).

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It may seem strange but to me I believe that the luxury catamaran market with a boat that actually sails well is poised for growth. Note the number of Sunreefs that get sold. 2008 was a serious, serious pullback. Current business climate is very strong and whilst there are always pullbacks, there are more 1%'ers than there have ever been. The world as a whole is getting richer. People live far better today (as a generalization) than 50 years ago.

What sets the performance catamaran apart from the rest of the pack is just that, performance. When a sailor is on the water they want a great sail with minimal fuss. Gunboat has done a great job in pushing people into performance catamarans that otherwise may have chosen a unimaran. I was on a 39 ft Pearson last week for a course and other than a lovely day sail around Nantucket's anchorage, they're absolutely the most uncomfortable thing to live on. At anchor you roll like crazy. I'm amazed that there are people actually still buying unimarans…….boggles my mind...……..

I think that GB has done a lot to sully their brand with the various shenanigans and burned financial bridges, but I have faith in the French to help push the brand and performance yachting in general. I'm bullish on performance catamarans. I'm bullish on the GB brand in French hands. 

If I am in the market for a boat and I know what I'm doing...….or I sail and sleep on both boat types, I'm going cat...….simply no other decision even makes any sense...…………..unless of course I could afford to own a J boat :D

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, trackday said:

Extreme H2O Is just about to complete a major service of Rig, rigging, mechanical systems, offshore safety gear maintenance  and cosmetic maintenance... in fact the boat is now Matterhorn White.  

It will be ready to sail by early September 

Aah thanks for the info, that's fantastic to hear. I suppose it also explains why her listings with Just Catamarans and Denison have been put "on hold" as it were.

There's a password protected page for her on the Gunboat site brokerage, maybe that'll become open to my prying eyes once the refit is done. Matterhorn White is one of my favorite colors, I think she'll look amazing!

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On 8/6/2019 at 9:16 AM, Student_Driver said:

Two Gunboats.  Fault Tolerant and Flow

 

How deep do the board go on that gunboat when all the way down? They look 10-12 feet out of the deck. Are they straight boards? Asymmetrical?

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On 8/9/2019 at 9:44 PM, mpenman said:

there are more 1%'ers than there have ever been

I'm in complete agreement with your post, but this excerpt made me chuckle.

Maybe one day all people will be in the top 1% of income :D, the same way that today 90% of Americans say they are in the "middle class".

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And they will all live in Lk Wobegon. 

I might spring for a 300k 48 footer if you guys leave any for the rest of us.

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On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 1:55 PM, Rocket Raccoon said:

I'm in complete agreement with your post, but this excerpt made me chuckle.

Maybe one day all people will be in the top 1% of income :D, the same way that today 90% of Americans say they are in the "middle class".

I see what you did there:D 

90% of the time I'm right, the other 50% I'm not!!!

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23 hours ago, vokstar said:

Any news on how sea trials are going for 6802 Dash? 

@americano - saw the FB posts about light air and checklists.  Any updates on performance vs Condor given the different rigs and missions?

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This one was a push, but 1 month after launch, Dash is in Sardinia and on day 1 in the Med they caught a 50kg Tuna. Almost like a little gift to the owners as a nod to their fully cruising program!

They put the biggest Yeti cooler I've ever seen in the forward cockpit :lol:

Cannes boatshow on the 10th September. 

Best seatrials I've had on any boat, platform is rock solid. First Lorima rig just- well it just works! Usual teething leaks in plumbing and dings in furniture, but we can see our quality compounding and the experience of the team showing. 

 

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On 8/29/2019 at 9:01 AM, Greenflash said:

This one was a push, but 1 month after launch, Dash is in Sardinia and on day 1 in the Med they caught a 50kg Tuna. Almost like a little gift to the owners as a nod to their fully cruising program!

They put the biggest Yeti cooler I've ever seen in the forward cockpit :lol:

Cannes boatshow on the 10th September. 

Best seatrials I've had on any boat, platform is rock solid. First Lorima rig just- well it just works! Usual teething leaks in plumbing and dings in furniture, but we can see our quality compounding and the experience of the team showing. 

 

Sorry for my ingnorance but who made the rig for Condor? I thought Lorima made racing oriented masts and Dash was the cruising version

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15 hours ago, CbrosTheDude said:

Sorry for my ingnorance but who made the rig for Condor? I thought Lorima made racing oriented masts and Dash was the cruising version

Condor has a Hall Spars rig (and longeron, boom), female tooled. There are a bunch of articles about this also through Gunboat about all the development of the boat in conjunction with the rigging package.

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Does anyone know the offering price of the 48.  Not that I am a buyer.  Just curious like the cat.  

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4 hours ago, Student_Driver said:

Does anyone know the offering price of the 48.  Not that I am a buyer.  Just curious like the cat.  

$1.895. The 48's are unicorns. I still think they're the best owner/operator boat out there. 

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24 minutes ago, soma said:

$1.895. The 48's are unicorns. I still think they're the best owner/operator boat out there. 

Why was production cut off for the 48 - was that tied up with changing yards?

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On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 3:01 AM, Greenflash said:

This one was a push, but 1 month after launch, Dash is in Sardinia and on day 1 in the Med they caught a 50kg Tuna. Almost like a little gift to the owners as a nod to their fully 

Best seatrials I've had on any boat, platform is rock solid. First Lorima rig just- well it just works! Usual teething leaks in plumbing and dings in furniture, but we can see our quality compounding and the experience of the team showing. 

 

I'm curious as to why you switched after Hall had done all the initial work. Lorima seem to the multihull go to folks now in the rig department. Why they switch?

BTW, condor looks great. I'll give a shout out to Miles, he's a great captain. Always incredibly nice to talk to.

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On 3/22/2019 at 4:47 AM, Greenflash said:

All electric/Torqeedo. All I can say is that after many grand (failed) tours into hybrid on many brands, the technology is finally really working. We have our finger closely on this pulse... 

Hi Greenflash, the 68 looks awesome.

A couple of questions if you don't mind:

1.  Is there some aspect of electric boats that's still not up to snuff?  I take it from your comment, that Moonwave didn't work as expected.  Are you planning anything or is it somethiing your clients generally aren't interested in?

2.  Most systems I've heard about have generators that charge batteries and motors running off the batteries.  Are you familiar with anything that works similar to a garden-variety LaFerrari, where:

  • The ICE can turn the propellor or turn the motor (to make electricity)
  • The motor can turn the propellor (either by itself or with the ICE)
  • The propellor can turn the motor (to make electricity)

It seems that this would be a much more straight forward way of motoring if there's no wind for 8 hours and you want to get going.  Red and black bits below are the ICE, green bit on the right is the electric motor and on the left I think its the alternator, silver bit in the middle is the transmission - would be a sail drive naturally.

DQx81wrVoAICTS6.jpg:large

3.  The race rig adds risk in terms of making it easier to overpower the boat over the cruiser rig.  Do the long, asymmetric daggerboards increase your risks in any area?

4.  I know you can't disclose the details of your arrangement with VPLP, but as I understand it they typically get a percentage of each boat sold.  Can you share anything as to what the cost would be if someone commissioned a project on that scale from VPLP?

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14 hours ago, mpenman said:

I'm curious as to why you switched after Hall had done all the initial work. Lorima seem to the multihull go to folks now in the rig department. Why they switch?

 BTW, condor looks great. I'll give a shout out to Miles, he's a great captain. Always incredibly nice to talk to.

How are you mpenman? Condor's crew are top notch, the boat still looks like new! Lots of attention to detail.

The rig subject is one I can't get into too much detail, it is a long story, but we've never been married to one supplier. We see Hall and Lorima, with the right project management, as on par with one another. They have their strengths and weaknesses. The decision is partly client, cost, delivery driven - it is all in the melting pot. Rig world is a surprisingly fast changing sector of the industry. 

What I can confirm is 6802 (Dash) and 6803 have Lorima rigs. Just to stem any concerns, we did not switch because of any negative technical reasons, Hall built a fantastic product for Condor that is performing as designed and was on target weight. Who knows, Hall may be doing another Gunboat 68 rig soon. 

 

 

 

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Hello Lurker19, congrats for not lurking anymore! ;)

6 minutes ago, Lurker19 said:

1.  Is there some aspect of electric boats that's still not up to snuff?  I take it from your comment, that Moonwave didn't work as expected.  Are you planning anything or is it somethiing your clients generally aren't interested in?

To be clear it is no secret V1.0 of Gunboat hybrid systems back in 2012 did not work very well, but that was seriously bleeding edge of the sword science project stuff. Moonwave as she is right now with a Torqeedo Hybrid system is seriously impressive. I've been on board to see it myself and we are in close touch with them. The exterior designer of Moonwave was on board  a while ago for a week's cruise and apparently they didn't burn a drop of diesel. :o (Note - no airconditioning)

10 minutes ago, Lurker19 said:

2.  Most systems I've heard about have generators that charge batteries and motors running off the batteries.  Are you familiar with anything that works similar to a garden-variety LaFerrari, where:

  • The ICE can turn the propellor or turn the motor (to make electricity)
  • The motor can turn the propellor (either by itself or with the ICE)
  • The propellor can turn the motor (to make electricity)

It seems that this would be a much more straight forward way of motoring if there's no wind for 8 hours and you want to get going.  Red and black bits below are the ICE, green bit on the right is the electric motor and on the left I think its the alternator, silver bit in the middle is the transmission - would be a sail drive naturally.

You're talking about a parallel hybrid and there are many versions of this in the Automotive industry. There are also a few versions in the marine industry, most notable on bigger boats and a couple of versions for smaller boats do exist. The interesting thing with series hybrids is that you can place the power making unit/s (ICEs) anywhere and the small drive units (Electric motors) in optimal places. Risk is if the electrical bits stop working you are screwed. So proven reliability is key. 

So to answer your question number 1 and 2: Naturally we are very interested in this technology, the platform is very good for it because it offers extremely interesting REGENERATION potential. Light boat with a powerful rig. Bottom line is that until very recently these systems were heavier, much more expensive, not reliable and the regeneration when sailing simply didn't work. I won't get into the details, but it is quite difficult to create hardware and especially software to handle the constantly changing power input (wind and sails) while managing your drag (props, hull) all on a "roadway" that is FLUID. 

Our mission is to create fast family friendly CRUISING boats first, that work reliably... and then you can take them racing if you want. The hybrid technology is just about ready to fit into this mission statement. Finger is still on the pulse is all I can say. 

25 minutes ago, Lurker19 said:

3.  The race rig adds risk in terms of making it easier to overpower the boat over the cruiser rig.  Do the long, asymmetric daggerboards increase your risks in any area?

 

Simple answer is that if you had one reef in the main, you have a "cruising rig". Think about it more as having the horsepower available when you need it in light air. Condor's boards are both Symmetric. I think we explained that in our daggerboard article, but there are certain angles that make the Asymmetric worth it, but then you need to tack the boards every time. For Condor's race+cruise program they chose the simpler option as the gain was not worth the hassle. Same thing applies, in heavy seas where you want to reduce power and stop yourself being tripped up by the board/s, just pull them up. You just have more available for extra lift, when required.

30 minutes ago, Lurker19 said:

4.  I know you can't disclose the details of your arrangement with VPLP, but as I understand it they typically get a percentage of each boat sold.  Can you share anything as to what the cost would be if someone commissioned a project on that scale from VPLP?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmXHvGZiSY

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Hi everyone, forgive me for the blatant marketing blurb, but you may find it interesting! 

If you'd like to see Dash or Condor they will be at boatshows next week: Dash at Cannes,France from  10 - 15 September and Condor at Newport,RI 12-15 September. 

For those interested you can read a little about the Dash seatrials (and first cruise!) and latest yard news here: 

https://mailchi.mp/gunboat/gunboat68news-sept2019?e=d35c5fd16e

image.thumb.png.54b0478e706bf2c6a4b3cf34a2442f8c.png

image.thumb.png.84669f4a88321567a04e861daadeeb62.png

image.png.8197714e76489f68ad7c89ffb4e76c60.png

image.png.25644b6304bc6168cd9eb011bcde2899.png

 

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Okay, back from vacation (such as it was) but wait, no new pics from either show? Dash's interior?

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On 9/6/2019 at 3:29 AM, Greenflash said:

Hi everyone, forgive me for the blatant marketing blurb, but you may find it interesting! 

If you'd like to see Dash or Condor they will be at boatshows next week: Dash at Cannes,France from  10 - 15 September and Condor at Newport,RI 12-15 September. 

For those interested you can read a little about the Dash seatrials (and first cruise!) and latest yard news here: 

https://mailchi.mp/gunboat/gunboat68news-sept2019?e=d35c5fd16e

 

 

I was at Newport and took a tour of Condor. Very Nice!

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Greenflash 

Have you guys considered routing fresh water through the salon roof for heating (and cooling the solar panels)?

I figure if anyone can pull off the careful assembly required it’s GB.

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On 9/1/2019 at 12:00 PM, Lurker19 said:

Hi Greenflash, the 68 looks awesome.

A couple of questions if you don't mind:

1.  Is there some aspect of electric boats that's still not up to snuff?  I take it from your comment, that Moonwave didn't work as expected.  Are you planning anything or is it somethiing your clients generally aren't interested in?

2.  Most systems I've heard about have generators that charge batteries and motors running off the batteries.  Are you familiar with anything that works similar to a garden-variety LaFerrari, where:

  • The ICE can turn the propellor or turn the motor (to make electricity)
  • The motor can turn the propellor (either by itself or with the ICE)
  • The propellor can turn the motor (to make electricity)

It seems that this would be a much more straight forward way of motoring if there's no wind for 8 hours and you want to get going.  Red and black bits below are the ICE, green bit on the right is the electric motor and on the left I think its the alternator, silver bit in the middle is the transmission - would be a sail drive naturally.

DQx81wrVoAICTS6.jpg:large

3.  The race rig adds risk in terms of making it easier to overpower the boat over the cruiser rig.  Do the long, asymmetric daggerboards increase your risks in any area?

4.  I know you can't disclose the details of your arrangement with VPLP, but as I understand it they typically get a percentage of each boat sold.  Can you share anything as to what the cost would be if someone commissioned a project on that scale from VPLP?

Somehow, I'd feel far more comfortable with a "Die Porsche" driveline than a "La Ferrari" out in the Tuamotus. ;-)

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I think that the Tesla is kicking the hind legs outta most 4 door sedans...….electric too:D

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On 9/1/2019 at 11:38 AM, Greenflash said:

Naturally we are very interested in this technology, the platform is very good for it because it offers extremely interesting REGENERATION potential. Light boat with a powerful rig. Bottom line is that until very recently these systems were heavier, much more expensive, not reliable and the regeneration when sailing simply didn't work. I won't get into the details, but it is quite difficult to create hardware and especially software to handle the constantly changing power input (wind and sails) while managing your drag (props, hull) all on a "roadway" that is FLUID. 

I keep thinking this all works much better if you have a robotic arm which can hot-swap (while underway) propellers. Props already have to do triple duty (Drive forward, Drive reverse, and be Low drag), so they're always some kind of compromise. Regen is asking them (and the shaft / transmission) to do a fourth thing. I keep thinking we'll see some designer say 'fuck it' and dedicate the space to some kind of internal hold with mechanisms to replace blades... Either that, or dedicated propellers that pop out to serve their function. Like, um, a bow thruster...

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14 minutes ago, dcnblues said:

I keep thinking this all works much better if you have a robotic arm which can hot-swap (while underway) propellers. Props already have to do triple duty (Drive forward, Drive reverse, and be Low drag), so they're always some kind of compromise. Regen is asking them (and the shaft / transmission) to do a fourth thing. I keep thinking we'll see some designer say 'fuck it' and dedicate the space to some kind of internal hold with mechanisms to replace blades... Either that, or dedicated propellers that pop out to serve their function. Like, um, a bow thruster...

I want what dcn is smoking! A variable pitch can and does all you are going on about, especially regen.

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Wow, that's genuinely retarded. You probably think windfarm props are identical to prop driven aircraft too...

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On 9/16/2019 at 10:38 PM, EarthBM said:

Greenflash 

Have you guys considered routing fresh water through the salon roof for heating (and cooling the solar panels)?

I figure if anyone can pull off the careful assembly required it’s GB.

Hey you guys ARE smoking something - love these ideas! Yeah the glue down panels I am guessing lose 10-15% compared to raised /cooled panels, but they are walk-on and super easy to install and integrate. Water cooling in roof is doable, you are on a sandwich panel one side of foam, so you'd need to prep the water grid recesses in the mold before starting the roof. These will make the roof a lot heavier not even to speak of the water cooling system weight. Then the install complexity and the risk of leaks. Is the cost and sailing performance loss worth a 10% gain on solar? I'd rather spend that on bigger more efficient alternators or hydrogenerator integration etc etc. So short answer is - yes it can be done and we absolutely can do it - but I don't think it is money and weight well spent. 

Back from 2 successful boatshows, couple of little awards under the belt and fantastic feedback on the Gunboat 68. I was so busy I didn't take many photos but Sailing Yacht TV did a live walkthrough in Cannes, check it out below. Reminder: This is 6802 DASH, full cruising setup. 

 

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The primary function of routing water through the roof is naturally heating the water without using power. Two birds, one stone. It actually exists for homes.

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11 hours ago, EarthBM said:

The primary function of routing water through the roof is naturally heating the water without using power. Two birds, one stone. It actually exists for homes.

I've always thought it'd be a great idea if someone made a solar hot water heater for boats. I've seen one product but it looked pretty clunky. 

With that said, a Yanmar is better at producing heat than it is at producing kinetic energy. 10 mins run time and you've got a tank full of hot water. With a high output alternator you also get some decent charging. 

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On 9/19/2019 at 4:54 PM, dcnblues said:

I keep thinking this all works much better if you have a robotic arm which can hot-swap (while underway) propellers. 

Wow. That's a great idea. I hope you end up buying a GB68. Im sure William would love to implement your robotic arm, prop-changing contraption. Make the purchase of the boat contingent on that idea (and make sure you get rights to it!!!). 

I do enjoy these forums sometimes. 

 

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9 minutes ago, soma said:

Wow. That's a great idea. I hope you end up buying a GB68. Im sure William would love to implement your robotic arm, prop-changing contraption. Make the purchase of the boat contingent on that idea (and make sure you get rights to it!!!). 

I do enjoy these forums sometimes. 

 

Image result for tongue in cheek

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51 minutes ago, soma said:

Wow. That's a great idea. I hope you end up buying a GB68. Im sure William would love to implement your robotic arm, prop-changing contraption. Make the purchase of the boat contingent on that idea (and make sure you get rights to it!!!). 

I do enjoy these forums sometimes. 

 

LOL and the GB rep had to keep smiling and answering. The comedic value is high here....

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On 9/19/2019 at 11:09 PM, Rasputin22 said:

I want what dcn is smoking! A variable pitch can and does all you are going on about, especially regen.

On this subject It would be great to have real feed bak from the Oceanvolt "servoprop" propellers and regen ability, they claim 300% regen increase, but didn't see any real life feed back anywhere (tried to ask ita catamarans who uses them on their first boat, they told me to ask oceanvolt ...)

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On 9/1/2019 at 11:38 AM, Greenflash said:

Naturally we are very interested in this technology, the platform is very good for it because it offers extremely interesting REGENERATION potential. Light boat with a powerful rig. Bottom line is that until very recently these systems were heavier, much more expensive, not reliable and the regeneration when sailing simply didn't work. I won't get into the details, but it is quite difficult to create hardware and especially software to handle the constantly changing power input (wind and sails) while managing your drag (props, hull) all on a "roadway" that is FLUID. 

This quote is completely accurate. What's your suggestion to find a solution, Soma? You clearly don't seem to have seen what robot arms can do these days, especially on a fixed repetitive task, and yet you are all in on paying to have one lower a transverse dedicated propeller specifically designed for torque at low speeds (And since you don't seem to grasp anything I'm saying other than to be a snarky douchebag I'm referring to the bow thruster). Nor do you seem to have ever seen, and certainly not recently, an F1 pit stop. 'Constantly changing power inputs and outputs in a fluid environment,' contrary to what low IQ individuals may believe, require more than variable pitch. They require propellers optimized for their engineered requirements. When someone's perfectly willing to cut big holes in the hull to have a robot lower a very specific propeller into the water, and have the whole thing weigh 400+ lbs because they can't find a couple of people to push a Gunboat off a dock, but they mock speculation about future state of the art boats, they don't just look stupid, uninformed, and unimaginative, they look like someone who really shouldn't be hired to manage anybody's boat build. Snarky and stupid make for a poor consultant. 

In fact, the more I think about it, turning the drive shaft / saildrive itself into a robot arm hybrid that can decouple, move into a hull recess, change blades, and move back into the water stream as needed is entirely feasible. And is a definite possibility on a future green / electric Gunboat design. Hell there are way heavier hydraulic arms on stink pots just to launch a tender. You know what, I'm done talking to you. I don't think you've got the brains to understand what I'm suggesting.

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Watt&Sea hydro generator has an arm that drops in the water when needed. You can call it robotic if that does it for you. 

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16 hours ago, dcnblues said:

Well there is now some overlap with this thread All electric boat setup moonwav, but I like speculating about state of the art catamarans on the thread named for The state of the art catamaran.

So DCN, tell us a little about your boat. What do you sail. Have you made any interesting mods.

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Here is DCN's major mod to his boat, a robotic tool changer for his propeller...

 

image.thumb.png.b6bb5e3fc24cfd2d1402039d2b36f0e6.png

 

Sorry DNC but I would like to hear your basis for some of your far out ideas. I've ragged you a bit here but would like to know more about just where you are coming from just as Mizzmo has mentioned. 

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That is a system that was used on TP 52's I think. Jim Betts built one for one of his Bieker designs I think and I proposed that we use that on a a catamaran and he said that there were too many complications to the system. As in cardan (universal) joints in the driveline. 

 

zH8Z8OlFQQslHRZaWlCRrib4ddRm2ZCemuE-R36TlCKkky0-gBoq3GjGoL7vGQYB7FV0TdE=s128

 

 

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I believe McConnaghy used this system first, on Alfa??

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On 9/19/2019 at 1:54 PM, dcnblues said:

I keep thinking this all works much better if you have a robotic arm which can hot-swap (while underway) propellers. Props already have to do triple duty (Drive forward, Drive reverse, and be Low drag), so they're always some kind of compromise. Regen is asking them (and the shaft / transmission) to do a fourth thing. I keep thinking we'll see some designer say 'fuck it' and dedicate the space to some kind of internal hold with mechanisms to replace blades... Either that, or dedicated propellers that pop out to serve their function. Like, um, a bow thruster...

There seem to be a huge number of very low IQ people who don't seem able to read English. Or define 'speculation.'

I was speculating about future technology from 'some designer' that would solve the issues which prevent Gunboat from turning their in-many-ways ideal platform into a green powered platform able to ditch diesel technology. Maybe the personal attacks against me come from people so ignorant about Gunboat they've never heard of Moonwave. (Anyone actually interested in Hi-Tech catamarans which are able to ditch diesel technology can refer to the link above. Yeah, it's not working in 2019. But you have to be a moronic dipshit to think it won't be working in two years, or five, or certainly 10).

More likely, they are the kind of conservative, antitechnology luddites who poo poo building boats out of carbon fiber, having multihulls in the America's cup, or even putting engines in sailboats. They have a deep inner bias against progress, and innovation irritates them enough that all they can rely on his ad hominem attacks on people who do nothing more than speculate about future technological breakthroughs. I'm surprised their tiny peckers don't keep them off this thread entirely. And I personally hope they simply go away. Why are they even here? VPLP got hired for INNOVATION. The boat is a proving ground for INNOVATION. The company is highly motivated to transcend diesel technology. And yet they have no better use for their time than spewing personal attacks against people on this 'anarchist' forum SPECULATING about near-future design improvements. The lurker guy was actually dead on in using an F1 drivetrain to question future innovation. There's torque, regen, internal combustion, battery reserves, and INNOVATIVE design specifically mandated by the racing league to promote new technologies in automobile design which can filter down to the consumer. There's an enormous overlap of design requirements with a green Gunboat.

Little men with little peckers and little imagination can make as many personal attacks as they want, but a diesel free Gunboat is coming. And it will use some cool tech. And if they don't like speculation about that, they can go vigorously shove a pineapple up their ass.

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Hmm, let me guess, snarky, stupid, personal attacks referencing how impossible it is to build things with moving parts that can operate underwater in a marine environment. Right? Don't forget the personal attacks, dipshits!

These seem to work

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Sorry to break it to you but one Conser cat had electric Solomon drives in her about 19 years ago, so its been 20 years years since one of the earlier attempts, and we're not quite there yet.

It would be great if we could get there, but we are all still waiting. I remember walking the dock at the Miami boat show and seeing her electric setup.

I'm not sure what happened to her, but she was a twin electric wheel set up i believe, and leading edge at the time. 

Try to remember, when you take a boat to sea, simplicity is always the most reliable, eventually everyone learns that lesson.

If your just going to play around the marina you sail out of, then boat US is only a phone call away.   

 

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Break what to me? Do you not read English very well either? Do you know how to click on a link? Your comment shows no understanding of the context of this thread. You can go back and get your high school diploma, all you need is a little effort.

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Well you were talking about electric drives in boats correct ?

oh well, have fun.

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7 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

So DCN, tell us a little about your boat. What do you sail. Have you made any interesting mods.

Gee sparky, scraping barnacles with a painters knife doesn't give you any automatic credibility to speculate about yacht design and construction. In fact, not needing to do so frees up a lot of time to read and search the internet. Maybe you should try it sometime. You don't need to own something that floats to be interested in things that float. Or to speculate about them. I've spent enough time on boats, working on boats in boat yards, delivering boats, racing them, and working on motorcycles to SPECULATE on this thread without having to list credentials. If you think you can make yourself feel bigger by getting some leverage on or discrediting someone who is pro-innovation, why don't you go do it on a different thread. This one is about an innovative company, and their innovative, brand new, beautifully designed boat. Wooden boats has a great forum. Why don't you go there??

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28 minutes ago, Keith said:

Sorry to break it to you... (and) It would be great if we could get there, but we are all still waiting.

No, you luddites are waiting. People with imagination are SPECULATING, designing, testing, running sea trials, and trying to figure out solutions to the design conflicts that haven't quite yet been overcome. I like speculating about what Torquedo, VPLP, Gunboat, and others are putting their effort into. Your logic is actually seriously flawed: it hasn't happened yet and therefore speculating about it happening is a waste of time. Screw that!

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if you feel you need to change what i originally wrote, well have at it.

I pointed out that electric drives have been around for a very long time, and still need refining.

That's all.

Have fun.

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8 hours ago, dcnblues said:

No, you luddites are waiting. People with imagination are SPECULATING, designing, testing, running sea trials, and trying to figure out solutions to the design conflicts that haven't quite yet been overcome. I like speculating about what Torquedo, VPLP, Gunboat, and others are putting their effort into. Your logic is actually seriously flawed: it hasn't happened yet and therefore speculating about it happening is a waste of time. Screw that!

I speculate that you have never been sailing.

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12 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

That is a system that was used on TP 52's I think. Jim Betts built one for one of his Bieker designs I think and I proposed that we use that on a a catamaran and he said that there were too many complications to the system. As in cardan (universal) joints in the driveline. 

 

zH8Z8OlFQQslHRZaWlCRrib4ddRm2ZCemuE-R36TlCKkky0-gBoq3GjGoL7vGQYB7FV0TdE=s128

 

 

That's a Bieker designed retracting shaft and prop. There's one universal joint, but the driveline is always straight as the motor is aligned with the shaft when it's down. He built the original (in his garage) for one of the 35's.

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

This guy has to be a troll working for HH.

See, If I were anti innovation and wanted to argue with someone who thought future drive shafts might decouple in order to have variable propeller blades, I would object to the difficulty in designing a complex system that would be both flexible, reliable, and able to take the engine torque while being precision enough to take high RPMs. Saildrives are barely reliable with geared sealed systems. To decouple that system would require it to be unsealed, and that's hard to imagine being done successfully.

OR, you could be brave and show the world that

-you don't have any real arguments against several lengthy speculative posts,

-all you can fall back on is an ad hominem personal attack,

-and on a public forum that's easily searchable, you haven't read previous posts which were highly critical of HH chiefly for violating their anticompetition clause with Gunboat,

-and you're just another dummy who is for some reason against innovation but can only fall back on personal attacks.

So, looking stupid in public, I have a question: Do you feel stupid? You look stupid, but do you feel stupid??

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11 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

That's a Bieker designed retracting shaft and prop. There's one universal joint, but the driveline is always straight as the motor is aligned with the shaft when it's down. He built the original (in his garage) for one of the 35's.

http://biekerboats.blogspot.com/2012/11/retracting-drive-unit.html

852451497_RetractableDrive12.thumb.JPG.992985f45d2f6230818f26e2f23e2b7a.JPG

http://biekerboats.com/project/riptide-35-mk-ii/

RetractableDrive8.thumb.jpg.e91ada748a7144d15504870b4662f59d.jpg

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1 hour ago, eastern motors said:

I speculate that you have never been sailing.

Sure, I'm sure the sailing anarchy forum is filled with pretenders who just hang around talking about sailboats they don't really understand because it's some kind of fetish or intellectual amusement to be in the company of brilliant minds like yours. You really nailed it on the head there, Sparky! And gosh, I feel so intellectually devastated by your criticism. Well played!

OR, you could just be another idiot without any better retort than a dimwited third grader. Hmmm, tough call...

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Thanks for the threadlink, Proa. I was not aware someone had already built a universal joint which did decouple. It's an obvious nightmare. But with enough resources, and a clever enough design, and some robotic help, I can see someone making it work as well as the bow thruster previously discussed (which is pretty much a dedicated, programmable, self-powered robot arm that lowers a very specifically designed propeller out of a large cavity subtracted from interior Hull space, which is all I originally suggested anyway). Watch out on this thread though, you may get personally attacked for posting that link...

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On 9/20/2019 at 1:08 AM, Greenflash said:

Back from 2 successful boatshows, couple of little awards under the belt and fantastic feedback on the Gunboat 68. I was so busy I didn't take many photos but Sailing Yacht TV did a live walkthrough in Cannes, check it out below. Reminder: This is 6802 DASH, full cruising setup. 

Thank you for the link, Greenflash, didn't have time to watch it before now. It's just gorgeous. Every little design element is delicious in its obvious functionality.

I forget whether we have seen shots of the engine bay. One gets the impression it must be tiny, and only half the width of the hull. But I'm sure it opens up into something very accessible. Got pics? Thanks again, I'm sorry I didn't get to see it in person.

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38 minutes ago, dcnblues said:

Sure, I'm sure the sailing anarchy forum is filled with pretenders who just hang around talking about sailboats they don't really understand because it's some kind of fetish or intellectual amusement to be in the company of brilliant minds like yours. You really nailed it on the head there, Sparky! And gosh, I feel so intellectually devastated by your criticism. Well played!

OR, you could just be another idiot without any better retort than a dimwited third grader. Hmmm, tough call...

Maybe you should do some homework rather that going on such rants. Think your concepts are so cutting edge? Lots of 'been there, done that' you seem to be unaware of.

 

 

This is similar to the Bieker concept.

 

Image result for retractable propulsion system made by\Amartech

 

We considered this Amartech unit for a 50' catamaran but Betts himself talked us out of it. He built the one for Biekers 35' boat and said it was a pain in the ass.

 

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Here is a VW diesel electric system that has a clutch to switch completely from diesel only to electric only. 

You effectively have 1 shaft which can drive to different engines.

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/vwmarine-20100120.html

Theoretically this clutch could have the same prop/shaft service two electric engines. One for regen and one for drive mode. No?

As to range and bank size etc I’ve no idea just enjoying the thread and as long as it’s veering towards the theoretical thought I’d throw it into the ‘yeah that could work but maybe not’ bin.

 

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42 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Maybe you should do some homework rather that going on such rants. Think your concepts are so cutting edge? Lots of 'been there, done that' you seem to be unaware of.

You're really not bright enough to follow a thread, are you? Let me explain it to you slowly, okay, Timmy?

-Lurker19 posted a question about innovation in green sailing yacht design using the context of an advanced hybrid Ferrari drivetrain. 

-Greenflash nicely, concisely, and accurately summarized that while Gunboat is interested in and motivated to provide such a boat, doing so would be difficult. Read it again, slowly Timmy, because you need to absorb that this is the topic currently under discussion:

On 9/1/2019 at 11:38 AM, Greenflash said:

Naturally we are very interested in this technology, the platform is very good for it because it offers extremely interesting REGENERATION potential. Light boat with a powerful rig. Bottom line is that until very recently these systems were heavier, much more expensive, not reliable and the regeneration when sailing simply didn't work. I won't get into the details, but it is quite difficult to create hardware and especially software to handle the constantly changing power input (wind and sails) while managing your drag (props, hull) all on a "roadway" that is FLUID. 

-I replied with speculation about future designers providing a system with variable propellers as a solution to the variable conditions and requirements of a cruising catamaran.

-Some stupid luddites for some reason personally attacked me because of this.

-The important part for you to grasp, Timmy, is that transferring power from sun and sail into storage and propulsion is difficult for a cruising cat. You may want to go do some homework of your own If you don't grasp that propellers are always a compromise between lower RPM torque and higher RPM efficiency. Not to mention reducing drag, providing torque in reverse, and, most relevantly, generating electrical power from a boat under sail (which is reverse under high RPM). I don't think you understand what I'm talking about.

-But believe me, a system that can drop different propeller blades into the water stream would make Moonwave (a close to practical cruising electrical Gunboat) fully practical, If it could be engineered to be both reliable and relatively light.

-Those who don't read very well probably skipped over the part where I stated clearly that none of this happens without 'enough resources,' by which I mean millions in r&d. Yes I can imagine someone getting such a system working, but such speculation was contingent on deep pocket resources.

-none of the links you provided have anything to do with the topic at hand, so please try getting with the program, okay Timmy?

 

On 9/1/2019 at 11:38 AM, Greenflash said:

 

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What I have just shown with those videos of deployable props were meant to show how your 'interchangeable prop' idea would just be an evolution of what has already been accomplished. If you weren't so rabid in your response you might see that I am trying to help your argument for a 'tool changer' in a drive system.  Roll another one, dude...

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Thanks for that link fufkin. I think you and lurker might be the smartest guys in this discussion. We're talking about drivetrain innovation, and there are good odds that's going to come from the billion dollar auto industry's corporate r&d.

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Really Rasputin? Great, please point out which of your links have anything to do with changing props. And I'm not clear on your position: are variable drivetrains feasible or delusional? When you keep insulting those who speculate that they may become feasible while you assert that you're trying to help, you look confused.

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No prob...but I can assure I am far from it. The guys on this thread really know there stuff which is why I like following it. 

That said, ‘nothing wrong w out of the box thinking’ and ‘no such thing as a dumb question’ are decent mottos...another is the old ‘simplicity is the ultimate sophistication’.

When these guys are saying ‘all electric’ is not quite there yet I agree. Can it get there? Yes I tend to believe it will.

 

 

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I don't want to cross threads, but there's a link above to a discussion about Moonwave. Their latest blog post is enthusiastic and states that they are basically there (after a refit of second generation technology). But the suspicious part is that they don't post any hard numbers or data. I think the company that provides the tech, Torquedo, is very close and is evolving every 6 months closer and closer to a system that would be practical for a majority of liveaboard cruisers. Really smart software too. It's a fascinating subject...

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16 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

That's a Bieker designed retracting shaft and prop. There's one universal joint, but the driveline is always straight as the motor is aligned with the shaft when it's down. He built the original (in his garage) for one of the 35's.

I built a simple, plywood and unidirectional fiberglass version of this drive system for the three 40-foot Lagoon Cats I built in the Marshall Islands in 1986-89; big U-joint bolted to the engine coupling (inside the engine compartment where it was dry), with the engine cooling water routed down the 12-foot long PVC cutless bearing (cheap!).

They swung a big 3-blade prop with a 4:1 reduction, which gave the boats a 14-knot top speed under power with a single 24-hp, 3-cylinder Yanmar diesel mounted forward in the middle of the bridge deck. They had a nylon cord "fuse", a protective skeg under the rudder, and the strut assembly would break the fuse, kick up, and ride over a coral head with no damage to the prop or strut when it struck the coral head.

The strut was about 12 feet long overall, with the 1-inch prop shaft running inside a water-infused piece of 1" PVC pipe inside the strut. They worked great, were low-tech, and swung completely up out of the water for sailing. These weren't high-tech boats, but they carried a lot of people over the years who wouldn't have otherwise had transportation.

The hulls had a 15:1 waterline fineness ratio, and the cabins were enormously ugly. What the customer wanted.

Bad photo of the one that went to Tuvalu here:

40-CatMotoring1.jpg

With Warm Aloha, Tim

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