KC375

Scary Neel 45 Build Issues

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I’m a (at least) a few years away from buying a multi for extended cruising. I’m still more at the dreaming stage than working from a rigorous set of requirements or prioritized trade offs. The Neel line intrigues me based on:

  • Better performance than the condomaran/charter cats;
  • Better accommodations than the higher performance tris (I especially like the external visibility from the bridge deck berths);
  • More “affordable” than the high performance cats.

My positive impression was generally reinforced as I toured the web looking at Neel articles / videos / reviews until I cam across this link which really worried me. (neeltrimaranexperience )

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL3U8Bq7xNpww_bvVfDH5sQ

 

I’m not naïve about the need to treat a boat purchase seriously with an independently drafted contract, staged completion payments, performance bonds, escrow accounts etc. But like buying insurance, I’d want the risk protection for peace of mind rather than expecting I’d need to rely on it. I understand a boat of this size is complex with plenty of opportunity for things that need chasing down during commissioning but flooding and carbon monoxide poisoning seem a bit beyond the norm.

 

What should I take away from these videos?

  • The owner is just a whiner these things should be expected in commissioning a new boat? (i.e. maybe better to buy a well maintained used/proven boat)?
  • These issues are normal with a new model, wait until the builder has learned how to do it by cranking out a few more. (There seem to be a few other examples of early model issues – some Gunboats under previous management, first Alpha 42 abandoned - undersized rudder stock? Tom Kirkman’s Astus 16.5 threads etc)?
  • These issues are clear indications of systemic design and or build problems, don’t walk away from this builder – run away and don’t look back?

 

 

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I can only go bywhat I have read. But my impression is that Neel let a single boat out of the yard with catastrophic deficiencies and has not really made good on it. I think most of the blame has to go to Neel, but some of the deficiencies were so obvious I also have to wonder about the pre-purchase inspection. How the boat was ever accepted in that condition I have no idea.

 

On the other hand this does not seem to be a situation that has repeated itself thru other builds. If I take were my money I would be hesitant to buy a Neel based on this experience but I would be willing to do it. But I would also require a pretty serious performance bond and pre-delivery inspection. With a pretty large last payment held in escrow until any deficiencies were fixed.

 

It's a hard situation... a generally decent builder turns out a real lemon, then doesn't seem to stand behind the bad boat. On the other hand it's one boat out of a series that had these issues....

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Perhaps the owner didn't pay full price for the boat and these are the result of that??

 

Generally speaking, you are always better off buying a used boat from a meticulous previous owner, saving you a lot of commissioning cost (most boats need some work even when new!) and depreciation.

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That the factory released a boat in such bad condition would put me off. That they don't stand behind their product kills it for me. If Hurricane Mathew had demolished my boat, I'd be looking at Rapido. Neel would not be on the list.

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Watching that video, it seems to me that the purchaser wants a gunboat but only wants to spend 1/3 of the money, but still wants the same finish. Non of those problems look that major, go around and make a list, get the builder to fix them, tick them off and go sailing.

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That guy had some different vids uploaded, that were far more...inflammatory...I'm guessing he's had a call from a solicitor and has now moved onto "finishes".

 

Anybody hear anything about this boat other than his YouTube vids? There's a dozen Neel's working the charter trade now, they don't seem to be self destructing or put together by drunk chimps?

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL3U8Bq7xNpww_bvVfDH5sQ

 

If your serious go ahead and find the unhappy buyer. Most buyers who end up with a problem boat with no recourse are not going to post videos. More likely fix the obvious problems and sell it so they can "spend more time with the family".

 

This guy is pissed off....

I have been aboard one of these and was not overwhelmed by it. My take on it was that it was a bit too creative for me. There are some very nice cruising cats / tris out there and if I was serious about one most NA's offer a consultation for a very reasonable amount. So since you are not naïve if you are serious about this rather odd duck talk to an NA who specializes in multi hull.

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That guy had some different vids uploaded, that were far more...inflammatory...I'm guessing he's had a call from a solicitor and has now moved onto "finishes".

 

Anybody hear anything about this boat other than his YouTube vids? There's a dozen Neel's working the charter trade now, they don't seem to be self destructing or put together by drunk chimps?

The more dramatic vids are still out there

 

Hull failure, significant flooding:

 

Defective heater installation - carbon monoxide danger:

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL3U8Bq7xNpww_bvVfDH5sQ

 

If your serious go ahead and find the unhappy buyer. ....

....if you are serious about this rather odd duck talk to an NA who specializes in multi hull.

 

Any suggestions on how to find the unhappy buyer? It was not obvious on youtube how to reach the poster of the videos. (I could be missing something - wouldn't be the first time). I contacted Neel. They indicated this was a onetime occurrence that they blamed on a contractor. They indicated it had been resolved by the contractor's insurance company. I'd love to hear the owners version. There certainly seem some satisfied owners based on the comments on the Neel site http://www.neel-trimarans.com/testimonies/ (not a completely unbiased source).

 

I'd be interested in why you consider this boat an "odd duck". Was that the styling choices or did it extend to layout, function, performance?

 

I'm still a few years from inking a check so lots of time to learn more. As I get a clearer set of criteria I am inclined to retain an NA for advice. I will continue to bum rides and charter various multies - including a Neel when practical. My experience so far is that my family strongly prefer condomarans and don't see the appeal of simpler/higher performance - the opposite of my preferences. The Neel seemed like it might bridge my preference for perfomance with my family's preference for big windows, lounging space, coffee makers and martini bar.

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http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/neel-trimarans-caveat-emptor-173184.html

 

He appears to start a thread on Cruisers Forum. I am not familiar with the site. Maybe register and see if you can send him a PM.

 

https://twitter.com/neeltrimaranexp

 

This appears to be his twitter account. If you join you can follow him and reply to his thread. You could also invite him to join your thread at Sailing Anarchy. A website that will likely not stop him from posting like Cruising Forums did. His own website below lists Facebook and I believe on other website you could look for him.

 

His own website http://www.neel-trimaransexperience.com/

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KH

Thanks, I'll follow up on those leads.

 

Would you care to elaborate on the "odd duck" comment. Was it just not to your taste or specific aspects of the boat that seemed not fit for purpose?

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The Neel that I was on. I am not an NA or engineer of even a train! So take this very lightly. When I get on a multihull there are similarities in construction. I assume that those similarities are due to lessons learned. So when I got on the Neel the first thing was that huge cabin on a tri. Then I found fabric covering a lot more than I would usually see done on other multi's or for that matter a Fountain with swinging dice and three 1000hp mercs on the back. I poked around a bit but being somewhat conservative I was suspicious of why so much fabric? What is underneath?

 

Now I am sure that with an open wallet and a lot of aerospace quality engineer work and product pretty much anything can be built. I had seen a lot of race or record breaking tri's come out of France. The two major differences were they were not trying to carry that cabin AND they had an open wallet.

 

Perhaps they do have enough Neels out now that my concerns are not valid. Perhaps the unique design is very much sound. My problem was that if this was the case why had Farrier or another well known tri designer proposed something similar? When I look at various Cruising tri's they look right. While another NA might have differences that they could point out I would have a more difficult time. So to me it is an odd duck that needs to be explained by someone.

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KH

Thanks for elaborating

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KC, for my part, I'd concur with the 'odd duck' reference. Apart from some early trimarans like some large Cross designs, and the impossibly heavy Horstman designs and the short-lived Walker Wingsail designs, there are few that incorporate accommodations across all three hulls. The Neel attempts to achieve the 'condomaran' effect without totally sacrificing performance. The vast majority of todays tris function as a narrow hull with the amas serving only as buoyancy / stability devices. This is the best way to maintain performance.

 

It sounds like you anticipate a performance benefit from the Neel that you cannot get from a condomaran. However, it is still a niche design that, my guess, is likely to be difficult for you to re-sell down the line. The build reputation, deserved or not, will further complicate that process. These factors contribute to the 'odd duck' impression.

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Veeger you make a good point that I need to include resale value in my consideration. By the time I'm signing any purchase contract there will be more info on Neel quality, reliability, resale etc. As I look at used vs. new I find that generally the designs keep evolving enough that I would consider new over used. Unfortunately most of that evolution seems to be driven by the charter market producing improvements more apparent to my family (comfort in port) than to me (peformance between ports).

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We own and love trimarans. And are moving back up to an offshore multi. But it will not be a tri. Its not my MO to talk negative about a boat, nevermind one that somebody likes and wants to buy, so let me just say while it was briefly considered, the Neel is not on our list.

 

I only add that i think you can likely find similar performance, and comfort, as well as enhanced redundancy and load carrying ability (but not so good as a monohull) all for a similar price by looking at Catana or Outremer cats. I have no vested interest in either, or an axe to grind w Neel.

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I've visited the Outremer yard in La Grande Motte; it is pretty sweet and they take a lot of pride in their work. No opinion or knowledge of Neel

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Wess thanks for your observations. I'm not asking you to dis any boat but I'd be interested in your view of the +/- of the Neel. Any boat is a set of trade-offs - from what you saw what would you say the Neel was optimized for.

 

Why not a tri - is it simply that if not racing then with two hulls instead of three you get more for your money and the bridge-deck gives good living space?

 

From what I've seen Catanas and Outremers would work well for me. The Outremers would not work so well for the family - BUT the most recent Outremer I've been on is at least 10 years old and I understand the newer ones are less Spartan.

 

Over the next few years I'll need to get rigorous about my trade-offs / priorities - which will be affected by how much members of my family will be with me how much of the year - if a lot then condomaran; if not much then maybe a refitted racing tri or Virgin Fire.

 

At the moment my wish list is pretty unrealistic - Gunboat performance but Lagoon/FP price...clearly not happening. Two things caught my attention with the Neel line. The potential for better than condomaran performance without going Spartan AND the great visibility from the bridge-deck berths - a big winner with one particular family member who's tummy behaves as long as she can see the horizon.

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There are a couple of things worth considering regarding the Neel (I don't have any info the build quality, but this looks like a one-off issue as there seem to a number of them sailing now and they don't seem to be sinking or falling appart). To be fair I grew up living aboard a large tri with "condomaran-like" accommodations (Architeuthis) and I have limited first hand experience on cruising cats so this might not be completely balanced view...

 

Storage and convenience of putting supplies away: most cruising cats I see really don't seem to have very convenient storage for the sort of "stuff" you would want in long term cruising. The Neel has the "basement" under the main saloon and I wouldn't underestimate its usefulness: it was amazing how much crap we had in the holds in the main-hull and I always wonder where you would put this on most cruisers I see. I think this tends to end up in the lockers in the 4 corners of cruising cats, which brings me to the next point: comfort at sea.

Tris tend to have smoother motion at sea: a bit more roll amplitude than a cat but more gentle (kind of 1/3rd of the way between a cat and a mono) and less prone to hobby-horsing. Keeping all the weight of supplies nicely centered would also have a significant effect on this. This is a double bonus for performance and comfort and might be a help anyone sensitive to sea-sickness as well during passages.

 

I think the reason you don't see more Neel type boats is that adding an extra hull does significant cost and I think most builder figure they can offer better bang for the buck with cats. But if Neel can built something at a reasonable price-point I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. I think the trade off is that they have to use "Lagoon-style" build methods/technology levels to keep the cost down and end up achieving something closer to "Outremer-level" performance.

 

I do wonder what kind of machine you would end up with if you took the Neel concept and engineered/built it like and Outremer to create something half way in between a Neel and a Rapido...

 

Regarding the redundancy aspect of cats, I agree but it also adds a lot of duplication of systems (fuel and water tanks, grey water handling, etc...) which leads to more failure points and things to maintain, if you have a decent rib with a substantial outboard, it can double as emergency power for the mothership and opens up options while cruising. We went through a variety of ribs from 12" to 16" with OB going from 15 to 40 horse (and had 2 of them for a long time, one on each side) while growing up that allowed us to venture pretty far from the "base" (exploring up rivers, or going around the other side of an island, pulling other boats of reefs, etc...)

 

Anyway, I just wanted to point out some of the less obvious benefits the Neel could/might provide.

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Airwick thanks for your observations. Clearly I need to charter a Neel. If it does have a more tummy friendly motion that would be a HUGE selling point for at least two of my party. And yes storage is clearly something to consider - and find a way to keep out of the ends of the boat.

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The problem with storage space on a multihull is that you use it! They need to be rigorously kept light if performance is truly an issue. Yes, even so called cruising multihulls. At that point, What difference does it make?! I enjoy the redundancy of a cat, despite the added maintenance (which is not really all that significant in the scheme of things). Hull polishing, painting, washing and waxing is another issue entirely. If cats are hard to find moorage for, moorage and haul out for a Neel would be a constant issue except when anchored in some atoll somewhere. But I doubt you're gonna really want to 'put 'er on the beach' very often even if remains legal in 3rd world countries. Where's the nearest yard/travel lift that can handle a 28' beam?

 

There ARE things I like about it but a 23' beam had enough challenges for me and I'm grateful to be downsizing to a 21' beam on the next boat!

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I saw the Neel 45 both in Miami and Annapolis. The design and concept is awesome. And, the performance seems to match. However, I found the fit and finish to be less than average. I want to like this boat, but It just seems very cheap for a $500k boat. I asked the guy in Miami about the videos, and he said he was not aware of them. That is a little strange.

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Wess thanks for your observations. I'm not asking you to dis any boat but I'd be interested in your view of the +/- of the Neel. Any boat is a set of trade-offs - from what you saw what would you say the Neel was optimized for.

 

Why not a tri - is it simply that if not racing then with two hulls instead of three you get more for your money and the bridge-deck gives good living space?

 

From what I've seen Catanas and Outremers would work well for me. The Outremers would not work so well for the family - BUT the most recent Outremer I've been on is at least 10 years old and I understand the newer ones are less Spartan.

 

Over the next few years I'll need to get rigorous about my trade-offs / priorities - which will be affected by how much members of my family will be with me how much of the year - if a lot then condomaran; if not much then maybe a refitted racing tri or Virgin Fire.

 

At the moment my wish list is pretty unrealistic - Gunboat performance but Lagoon/FP price...clearly not happening. Two things caught my attention with the Neel line. The potential for better than condomaran performance without going Spartan AND the great visibility from the bridge-deck berths - a big winner with one particular family member who's tummy behaves as long as she can see the horizon.

Sorry was busy and out sailing a bit so missed this.

 

And again, its not my nature to talk down any boats. Lets think of it this way...

 

I think its fair to say you can get a new Neel 45 tri, Outbound 46 monohull, or Outremer 45 cat for about the same $550-650K price tag all kitted out and ready to go cruising. Now lets say that for cruising you are interested in things like: passage making speed under sail, range under power, system redundancy, comfort underway (seakindliness), good passage watch keeping station, effective (by this I mean without significantly degrading performance or safety) payload capacity, comfort at anchor, gracious owners stateroom and head, build quality, and resale/depreciation. I think the Outbound and Outremer win in many of these categories.

 

None of them have a watch keeping station I am thrilled with but ask yourself, which boat would you crew (next month) on a mid November offshore delivery from Newport to the Carib by way of Bermuda, knowing the odds are you are going to get plastered by a gale... and then live on for winter once you are there? I can say OK to the Outremer or Outbound named above for this.

 

You had mentioned "spartan" as if its a bad thing. Yes spartan is fair for some older Outremers; not for the newer. I actually like spartan. If you are thinking of refitting Virgin Fire then you would seem to as well??!!? The nice thing about spartan is you can refit the way you want... add what you want and take nothing you don't!

 

Not so sure where Neel shines. You asked where optimized... this is not fair and its just my impression, but if I had to guess my answer would be "for charter." Multihull type level sailing, ability to pack a crowd, and all without replicate systems (of a cat) needing to be maintained by the charter company. But that is an uninformed opinion so take it with a large grain of salt.

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Wess helpful perspective, thanks.

 

This is still early days in my boat search. Actually it is pre-search, still daydreaming...I have not firmed up criteria (or finished building funds). With a large enough budget, I think I could get the performance I'd want and the comfort my family would want. I'd rather buy a few years earlier than waiting until I could fund a Gunboat or equivalent (and the earlier I buy the more members of my family might join me for extended periods). So assuming I'm limited by budget then I need to trade off between my family’s preferences and mine. They will win as having them along would make me happier than going with a smaller party that was more into the sailing aspect. Myself I'd like something like Virgin Fire (good sailing, shallow draft, simple systems and finishes with simple maintenance), my family would go for something like Leopard 58 wedding cake condomaran (5 or 6 bedrooms, view from the bed, roof deck, patio in the back, front porch, AC, washer dryer, big screen, wet bar...), or in a fairer price comparison something like voyage 50. I was hoping the Neel might bridge those worlds. In any case I'll charter one to try it out, but I'll also look at the alternatives - the current Outremers would certainly appeal more to my family than the older ones. I suspect as I get to within a year of purchase that I'll have a much clearer view of my criteria and relative priorities.

 

As to build quality, I've tried through a few channels to reach the creator of the scary video but no luck. Eric Brunell at Neel gave a reasoned explanation that suggested it was a one off situation. I made superficial connections with a couple of more recent purchasers. Their post purchase experiences seemed more in line with volume boat builders (manageable punch list, no threat to life).

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Wess helpful perspective, thanks.

 

This is still early days in my boat search. Actually it is pre-search, still daydreaming...I have not firmed up criteria (or finished building funds). With a large enough budget, I think I could get the performance I'd want and the comfort my family would want. I'd rather buy a few years earlier than waiting until I could fund a Gunboat or equivalent (and the earlier I buy the more members of my family might join me for extended periods). So assuming I'm limited by budget then I need to trade off between my family’s preferences and mine. They will win as having them along would make me happier than going with a smaller party that was more into the sailing aspect. Myself I'd like something like Virgin Fire (good sailing, shallow draft, simple systems and finishes with simple maintenance), my family would go for something like Leopard 58 wedding cake condomaran (5 or 6 bedrooms, view from the bed, roof deck, patio in the back, front porch, AC, washer dryer, big screen, wet bar...), or in a fairer price comparison something like voyage 50. I was hoping the Neel might bridge those worlds. In any case I'll charter one to try it out, but I'll also look at the alternatives - the current Outremers would certainly appeal more to my family than the older ones. I suspect as I get to within a year of purchase that I'll have a much clearer view of my criteria and relative priorities.

 

As to build quality, I've tried through a few channels to reach the creator of the scary video but no luck. Eric Brunell at Neel gave a reasoned explanation that suggested it was a one off situation. I made superficial connections with a couple of more recent purchasers. Their post purchase experiences seemed more in line with volume boat builders (manageable punch list, no threat to life).

Good luck. Virgin Fire and a Leopard 58 are about as different as night and day.

 

But a Neel could maybe be the perfect boat to bridge the gap. This is why I don't want to talk down boats. If its not doing blue water passage making and instead is living in the virgin islands, or cruising the east coast it might be the perfect boat for your family. Horses for courses. What works for me might not work for you and vise versa. Don't let somebody else convince you what to buy or not buy.

 

If I was buying Neel - while the broker and factory may well hate me for it - I would want to sit with the factory representative (Eric?) and go through the videos and each item in them and get a clear response into how the problem happened and exactly what the factory changed about its build and build procedures to avoid the problem going forward. It may well be but would not take their word it was a one off issue. An answer of we realize we made mistakes and are more careful now would not be acceptable (to me). I would make them prove to me they understood exactly what went wrong and that they had put specific corrective measures in place to prevent a recurrence.

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Wess, thanks for your advice about going over the vids with the manufacturer. I agree that getting comfortable with the construction process is key.

 

I would likely go further. I'm not an engineer, NA or surveyor but I've turned around a few industrial/business operations from a few hundred to a few thousand staff. I'm inclined to go beyond the nice words about lessons learned and ISO yada yada.

 

If I buy new/commission a build I would personally visit the plant precontract. I'd want to get confident that I could trust them to deliver. If I didn't have full confidence I'd fined another solution. If I did have full confidence in them I'd then engage my own person to monitor the build (doesn't have to be full time but at critical points and with enough frequency). I would also build into the purchase contract the appropriate risk management clauses/tools. Do business with people you trust, but still verify. A good operation might not prefer that approach but they will have the self confidence to accept it. Yes this adds to the cost (a few %) - not trivial but cheap when you look at the time, money and heartache - even risk to life - when things go very wrong, be it actual defects in the build or bankruptcy etc.

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Mass produced boats on tight margins.... things can/do fall through the cracks... pays to have a solid project manager/surveyor on the 'buy' team.... and a penalty clause on the contract if you get excessive overun on the build time... as to what was promised.

 

However if you buy a new boat with the max dealer margin, tis of course their problemo if all's not good/right as promised... and they have to fix it/take the stress... what the margins for.

 

Either way a hold back % is key till your sea trials are complete and you're ready to finally go the distance sailing....

 

Even then gurantees can be/are useful....

 

Oh the joys of sailing....eh?

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I do find it surprising how much effort is required to ensure build quality and how much remedial work seems the norm in the first year after launch of new yacht. It is what it is. It may be an unrealistic comparison but I look at the consistent quality in automobiles (or aviation) and wonder why we put up with such indifferent performance in boats. Maybe I just need to change my reference point and remember what it was like driving British cars from the 60s and early 70s … it would usually take me a year + to chase down all the rattles and get the electrics reliable (swap in Bosch for Lucas where ever possible). But in my 20s that was fun, less so now.

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I do find it surprising how much effort is required to ensure build quality and how much remedial work seems the norm in the first year after launch of new yacht. It is what it is. It may be an unrealistic comparison but I look at the consistent quality in automobiles (or aviation) and wonder why we put up with such indifferent performance in boats. Maybe I just need to change my reference point and remember what it was like driving British cars from the 60s and early 70s it would usually take me a year + to chase down all the rattles and get the electrics reliable (swap in Bosch for Lucas where ever possible). But in my 20s that was fun, less so now.

Having commissioned a new boat design, and loved the process and the boat for 16 years, get a good NA and a yard that the NA likes. The design fee is worth it, and a bespoke design runs, if you do it right, about ~10% more. Antrim? Perry?

 

Get what you want within your budget...

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The first choice is new versus used (hopefully tried and tested rather than warn out). I think B Perry commented that with so many reasonably priced used boats it made no sense to buy new (other than of course a Perry design). One possible reason to buy new would be for design or features not readily available in the used market (e.g. NEEL trimaran).

However, if considering new, e.g. for specific features AND if bespoke is really only 10% more that would be a no brainer. Either find the extra money or get slightly less boat but better boat.

I thought I saw on another thread around here that custom was more in the range of 50+% more… No question Antrim or Perry could help me get what I want but if the premium is 50% that starts to be a lot more money or a lot less boat. Not a crazy choice if you have the funds but I expect I won’t. In any case I’m a few years away (one last kid to get through college) from firming up my budget and selection criteria.

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The first choice is new versus used (hopefully tried and tested rather than warn out). I think B Perry commented that with so many reasonably priced used boats it made no sense to buy new (other than of course a Perry design). One possible reason to buy new would be for design or features not readily available in the used market (e.g. NEEL trimaran).

However, if considering new, e.g. for specific features AND if bespoke is really only 10% more that would be a no brainer. Either find the extra money or get slightly less boat but better boat.

I thought I saw on another thread around here that custom was more in the range of 50+% more No question Antrim or Perry could help me get what I want but if the premium is 50% that starts to be a lot more money or a lot less boat. Not a crazy choice if you have the funds but I expect I wont. In any case Im a few years away (one last kid to get through college) from firming up my budget and selection criteria.

 

The first choice is new versus used (hopefully tried and tested rather than warn out). I think B Perry commented that with so many reasonably priced used boats it made no sense to buy new (other than of course a Perry design). One possible reason to buy new would be for design or features not readily available in the used market (e.g. NEEL trimaran).

However, if considering new, e.g. for specific features AND if bespoke is really only 10% more that would be a no brainer. Either find the extra money or get slightly less boat but better boat.

I thought I saw on another thread around here that custom was more in the range of 50+% more No question Antrim or Perry could help me get what I want but if the premium is 50% that starts to be a lot more money or a lot less boat. Not a crazy choice if you have the funds but I expect I wont. In any case Im a few years away (one last kid to get through college) from firming up my budget and selection criteria.

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If you go gold plated, carbon, etc, yup, +50%. But builders know how much stuff costs, so if they're in the mix from the beginning, and the NA is good with that, and is close enough to be involved with the build, it can make a huge difference. So maybe the boat weighs 10% more than carbon, but costs 2/3 less? Or 1/2 in our case. That was back in 1999 though. And wood foam epoxy w/ an aluminum mast.

 

Shuttleworth? White? Maybe a Newick design (with some NA input)?

 

This'll be the the best 2 years you'll ever have if you do it right. And you can always ask around here for advice.

 

See if Kim has any thoughts.

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Amati you make a good point that often a bespoke build is driven by criteria other than budget. If budget is one of the driving considerations a good NA and builder may be able to keep the premium down. In my case I'd rather forgo some of the expensive finishes etc and not be driving for the lowest possible weight and I should have a firmer grip on budget two years from launch so - if budget supports new then clearly worth at least exploring the custom option.

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Amati you make a good point that often a bespoke build is driven by criteria other than budget. If budget is one of the driving considerations a good NA and builder may be able to keep the premium down. In my case I'd rather forgo some of the expensive finishes etc and not be driving for the lowest possible weight and I should have a firmer grip on budget two years from launch so - if budget supports new then clearly worth at least exploring the custom option.

 

Here's an article on Amati. Our high bid was $600K (Westerly- but they were full of AC boats at the time so they had carbon on the brain- never underestimate inertia!). Schooner creek did it for ~$250.

 

[/qhttp://archive.schoonercreek.com/images/2000_american_yacht_review.pdfuote]

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Amati you make a good point that often a bespoke build is driven by criteria other than budget. If budget is one of the driving considerations a good NA and builder may be able to keep the premium down. In my case I'd rather forgo some of the expensive finishes etc and not be driving for the lowest possible weight and I should have a firmer grip on budget two years from launch so - if budget supports new then clearly worth at least exploring the custom option.

 

Here's an article on Amati. Our high bid was $600K (Westerly- but they were full of AC boats at the time so they had carbon on the brain- never underestimate inertia!). Schooner creek did it for ~$250.

 

[/qhttp://archive.schoonercreek.com/images/2000_american_yacht_review.pdfuote]

 

Or if that doesn't work

 

http://archive.schoonercreek.com/images/schooner_creek_boat_works_book.pdf

 

Scroll down 6 pics

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Lovely boat Amati – tiller is particularly nice touch. You make a strong case for researching the bespoke options. I have an evolving list of desiderata that I add to usually when I see something I like on a boat I’m on. That the list comes from so many different boats suggests the value of bespoke. Unfortunately some of the items are mutually incompatible but that is where a good therapist and NA (possibly two different people) can help me through the trade-offs.

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Lovely boat Amati tiller is particularly nice touch. You make a strong case for researching the bespoke options. I have an evolving list of desiderata that I add to usually when I see something I like on a boat Im on. That the list comes from so many different boats suggests the value of bespoke. Unfortunately some of the items are mutually incompatible but that is where a good therapist and NA (possibly two different people) can help me through the trade-offs.

One last thought- the main reasons for doing bespoke, for me at least-

 

Simplicity- decontenting boats seems needlessly complex, whether with production boats (somewhat better now than it used to be), or used, when you find out what it will take.

 

The right rig. We wanted a rig that would work well in light air, a deep enough keel to get us to windward well, and a simple easy rig for 2 to handle.

 

Light enough weight so we could plane easily- takes so much of the squirrellyness out of downwind sailing.

 

It sounded simple. Until we tried to do it. How many times do you have to hear the word 'no'?

 

I'll leave it at that-

Lovely boat Amati tiller is particularly nice touch. You make a strong case for researching the bespoke options. I have an evolving list of desiderata that I add to usually when I see something I like on a boat Im on. That the list comes from so many different boats suggests the value of bespoke. Unfortunately some of the items are mutually incompatible but that is where a good therapist and NA (possibly two different people) can help me through the trade-offs.

One last thought- the main reasons for doing bespoke, for me at least-

 

Simplicity- decontenting boats seems needlessly complex, whether with production boats (somewhat better now than it used to be), or used, when you find out what it will take.

 

The right rig. We wanted a rig that would work well in light air, a deep enough keel to get us to windward well, and a simple easy rig for 2 to handle.

 

Light enough weight so we could plane easily- takes so much of the squirrellyness out of downwind sailing.

 

It sounded simple. Until we tried to do it. How many times do you have to hear the word 'no'?

 

I'll leave it at that-

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And Schooner Creek seems to have executed well, a wide range of designs from some of my favourite designers...maybe enough reason to move to Oregon for two years - split time between Mt Hood, Hood River and Schooner Creek wouldn't be so bad...then cast of from the west coast...maybe not so crazy as I've already covered much of Europe and the Caribbean.

In the meantime, back to the boring task of paying college tuition and cruising funds.

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Geeze, I don't know about this one off thing.

 

Our true love (boat) has been drawn (by a well know multihull shop) and built (once). We would want minimal changes. So we looked really really hard at this.

 

Everyone and I mean everyone, including the now ex-owner who commissioned the design and build, told us to not do a one-off. Way more money and time and certainly far more expensive than similar production boats. I am so grateful to the ex-owner because we were pretty far down the path but once we a cold hard facts rationale assessment we decided against.

 

We didn't do it so I don't speak from experience but before doing a one off I would sure suggest talking to a lot of people and looking hard at what they got, for what time and cost

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Possibly harder to sell. But a second (?) boat would benefit from molds, forms, etc. And not a 1 off! :)

 

What experience did the first owner have that was so bad? Amati was turnkey when we got her....

 

Fwiw, the final build cost was $224 over the bid. We decided on a bigger engine.

 

If the top of the Bell Curve does it, then by all means, but if not......

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It seems to me (at least) six things need to be true before it would make sense to do a one off.

  1. Clear and important purchase criteria not met in a production boat or with reasonable mods to a production boat; {not sure yet}
  2. Commissioning a forever boat or willing to accept re-sale risk of one-off; {probably}
  3. Genuinely enjoy active involvement in the design and build process…not just enjoy it, but enjoy it more than other things you could spend your time on; {enjoy yes; but maybe not more than alternatives like boat testing in the Caribbean and Aegean}
  4. Live near an NA and yard you have confidence in individually and as a team; {probably not}
  5. Live in a low-cost labour market/weak currency; {No/Yes}
  6. Can initiate the project at least two years before you plan to use the boat; {maybe}.

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There is just no reason to do a one-off custom unless it is substantially different than anything else available, or substantially higher in quality. Both are going to cost money. All things being equal, there is not much labor savings in a low volume production boat over a one off. There is some savings in tooling. But "all things being equal", why then build a custom? My estimate would be 50% more for a nice custom, and 200% more for an extraordinary one.

 

You just cannot beat the values available in the used market. Someone else has paid for the dream, and is in effect gifting it to you.

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Agreed the used market offers substantially better value, especially if you want either a condomaran – lots of ex-charter boats or a spartan performance boat – good number of former racers.

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There is just no reason to do a one-off custom unless it is substantially different than anything else available, or substantially higher in quality. Both are going to cost money. All things being equal, there is not much labor savings in a low volume production boat over a one off. There is some savings in tooling. But "all things being equal", why then build a custom? My estimate would be 50% more for a nice custom, and 200% more for an extraordinary one.

 

You just cannot beat the values available in the used market. Someone else has paid for the dream, and is in effect gifting it to you.

This is the most economical approach, and if you invest the time in researching whats really for sale, you may find an amazing deal on an awesome and exceptionally well built multihull.

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Keith, in post 46 you said "if you invest the time in researching whats really for sale, you may find an amazing deal on an awesome and exceptionally well built multihull."

 

That statement "whats really for sale" intrigued me. Are you saying get with a broker who will spend the time looking for motivated seller of the right boat, or more like; walk and talk the docks in the Carib, Med or other multi hot spot with eyes & ears open, or is it find folks in the multi world who may be "in the know". The former might be hard unless you convince the broker you WILL buy a boat, the latter two seem to be crap shoots. Is there something else you had in mind.

 

Yes the Neel video was scary. I don't see how a manufacturer could blow that off to a customer, (let alone not jump on making it right), if he had any sense of future for his company.

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I'm a hands on buyer, I would do my own survey, I would walk the docks, talk to people, fly to far away places, But most importantly, invest my time to find what I'm looking for.

 

But that's just me, and how I do things.

 

If there was anything technical that I wasn't knowledgeable about in the design or the build or the fit out. I would talk directly too the the builder and designer.

 

But you wont find me looking for a cookie cutter F.P. Lagoon, or similar "charter boat" design, that are later marketed too cruisers.

 

I'm a sailor first, if the design doesn't excel at sailing very, very, very well, I'm just not interested. But that's my personal choice.

 

I want too sail most of the time.

 

There's always boats that are for sale, they sit on the market for a very long time, at an over inflated price, the boats not really "for sale" unless you want to pay far far far too much money, because and only because "that's what the owner thinks shes worth" and so shes really not for sale, he's simply fishing for someone with a pocket full of cash and little knowledge.

 

Form follows function, figure out what your realistically going to do with any boat, before you decide on a design, many people get the wrong boat for their real purpose, and are not happy with their choice, be it mono or multihull.

 

 

Too me these are really cool boat designs, and I bet they both sail very well. But this is just a couple of examples.

 

 

 

http://sailinganarchy.com/classifieds/show-ad/?id=2699

 

http://trimaranspirit.weebly.com/

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Eric, for what it’s worth. I’ve connected with a few owners and the build issues don’t seem to be recurring. However, I don’t get the sense that NEEL have resolved the “scary build” to the satisfaction of that owner. I made an admittedly cursory effort to reach them; no luck. They still have the video up.

Keith, I think you and I have similar taste in boats. Unfortunately, my family don’t share my taste for Spartan simplicity and sailing performance so I’m looking for a compromise that approaches condomaran comfort on the hook without giving up too much performance. I have no doubt I can find that for a few million…but my cheque will be an order of magnitude smaller so the task is tougher. As with so many things about boats I’ll need to set clear priorities and then try to optimize the trade offs or compromises. I would genuinely enjoy commissioning a design and build (probably about 2 years elapsed). In fact, I would enjoy doing much of the build myself (several years longer). The lost income from the time I spent building or commissioning a boat could go towards a materially bigger boat budget. The lost time could go towards more sailing or family time.

Keith, I agree with you on Yachtworld and at a lot of brokerages there seems a false market. “now reduced by $100k, way below market value”…NO market value is what a willing buyer and seller agrees to, not want a seller wishes for. The number of boats that have been on the market for over year are clearly not “really for sale” or the price would have adjusted until a buyer was found.

Finding the best of the used market as you describe it requires “most importantly, invest my time to find what I'm looking for”. Not a trivial investment. However, a boat that I expect to spend at least five years with and rely on for my family’s safety is worth putting some time into. Its also something that as the time gets closer I may substitute a cheque book for some of my own time. Even if I’m not commissioning a design a bit of consulting time with a NA might save me years of learning. Engaging the right project manager / consulting client might save me much time if I do go for a new build. If I could find the right broker to walk the docs for me…so far my experience with brokers has been underwhelming.

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Today I spoke with the US dealer for Neel and asked him about the YouTube failure postings. He told me the person doing the complaining had mounted a jet ski to the area that failed, and that it was not designed to handle that load.

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Today I spoke with the US dealer for Neel and asked him about the YouTube failure postings. He told me the person doing the complaining had mounted a jet ski to the area that failed, and that it was not designed to handle that load.

Well that’s a good sales person’s story – which might even be true. However, it’s not consistent with what the company president communicated. He attributed the issue to a lack of glue from their “polyester sub-contractor”. Apparently, the repair was paid for by the sub-contractor’s insurance.

I’m guessing if the problem could be blamed on an excess load like a jet ski the insurance would not have paid up.

In any case following the incident, Neel says they reinforced internal quality control and they have revised their process “now bonding and laminating this joint”.

I’ve seen no sign of repeat issues from my (limited) communications with more recent owners.

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Wow - I followed the whole string, and it was very insightful - Thanks KC375 and everybody who participated.

It seems that the more research you do, the more confusing it becomes.

The Neel 45 cockpit seems very small and removed from the sailing experience, which made me realise that it is a general problem with multihulls. 

Does that meen that I have gone full circle, and back to looking at monohulls again.....

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My very modest contribution, all stolen from Cruisers Forum over this matter:

Comment from someone who actually went and met Neel people:

"  what they told me then is that the picture were taken during the actual boat building , that the owner almost camped all teh time on the construction site and all in all that wasn't a very good experience for them. note that the said boat is now hapily sailing in the usa

their lawyer told them not to communicate about the problem publicly i told them that i believe they were inthe wrong and that they should explain their views of the problem and show that they've taken the necesssery steps

 i was told by one of their reseller ( not by people from neel) that the problem came from a shock with the pier by the owner...don't know the truth of it and really don ´t care. i'm pretty confident steps were taken and that the boats are reasonnably well made "

And the pics of the overloaded Neel 45 (which is suposedly the one which failed) next to another one

 

IMG_0014.JPG.jpeg

IMG_0023.jpg

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On 7/19/2017 at 1:17 PM, CbrosTheDude said:

My very modest contribution, all stolen from Cruisers Forum over this matter:

Comment from someone who actually went and met Neel people:

"  what they told me then is that the picture were taken during the actual boat building , that the owner almost camped all teh time on the construction site and all in all that wasn't a very good experience for them. note that the said boat is now hapily sailing in the usa

their lawyer told them not to communicate about the problem publicly i told them that i believe they were inthe wrong and that they should explain their views of the problem and show that they've taken the necesssery steps

 i was told by one of their reseller ( not by people from neel) that the problem came from a shock with the pier by the owner...don't know the truth of it and really don ´t care. i'm pretty confident steps were taken and that the boats are reasonnably well made "

And the pics of the overloaded Neel 45 (which is suposedly the one which failed) next to another one

 

IMG_0014.JPG.jpeg

IMG_0023.jpg

Wow that pic of Tao Bin is sure worth 1000 words!  Some folks should not own multihulls!!  Yikes.  :wacko:

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yes the pic is scary but we do not know if it is THE boat...however i want to add to the quote of my post from cborsthe dude that the infos i =had from the boatyard were not from the manaement but by one of the secretaries, still not sure if it is better than  the word from the boss or not

 

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This thread has been open for a while now. Has anyone actually experienced the boat? I re-walked it at the boat show and it checks a lot of boxes for me. Assuming it can sail out of its own way. It has a pretty deep draft (4'), and no dagger-board although there is a "race" option with a carbon mast and a centerboard. There are enough out there that it seems like there should be some actual experience with the boat.

I was surprised when I asked the rep what % of total displacement the floats were. His answer was that the main hull supported 80% and the floats 20%. This of course didn't answer the question, and when I pressed he didn't seem to know.

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I think you’ve answered your own question.... no it won’t sail out of its own way.... 

theres far too much windage too sail well....

Use this trimaran as a excellent reference point for “ sails really awesome”

11B6FECB-2197-44CD-879B-5BEF76C6E1AF.jpeg

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Lol, that would be an amazing toy, but it would make a shitty home. My reference is an F-27, but I even that is probably asking to much given my comfort and cost requirements.

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The Rapido falls pretty much right in the middle between these 2 in terms of comfort and performance!

 

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4 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

Lol, that would be an amazing toy, but it would make a shitty home. My reference is an F-27, but I even that is probably asking to much given my comfort and cost requirements.

Interesting. Your f27 will sail circles around the Neel.  Form follows function. If your looking for a home, build it on land.

 If your looking to go multihull voyaging pick a boat that sails very well,  or you may be very disappointed. Best too leave all the junk you don’t needon land. 

I know which tool I’d choose for the job.... 

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On 10/15/2017 at 8:42 AM, Mizzmo said:

Lol, that would be an amazing toy, but it would make a shitty home. My reference is an F-27, but I even that is probably asking to much given my comfort and cost requirements.

While its not my cuppa Mizzmo I think it may well out sail our F27 in cases and can certainly do more.

PS - You never did respond to that text, LOL!

 

 

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On 10/17/2016 at 3:03 PM, KC375 said:

Wess helpful perspective, thanks.

 

This is still early days in my boat search. Actually it is pre-search, still daydreaming...I have not firmed up criteria (or finished building funds). With a large enough budget, I think I could get the performance I'd want and the comfort my family would want. I'd rather buy a few years earlier than waiting until I could fund a Gunboat or equivalent (and the earlier I buy the more members of my family might join me for extended periods). So assuming I'm limited by budget then I need to trade off between my family’s preferences and mine. They will win as having them along would make me happier than going with a smaller party that was more into the sailing aspect. Myself I'd like something like Virgin Fire (good sailing, shallow draft, simple systems and finishes with simple maintenance), my family would go for something like Leopard 58 wedding cake condomaran (5 or 6 bedrooms, view from the bed, roof deck, patio in the back, front porch, AC, washer dryer, big screen, wet bar...), or in a fairer price comparison something like voyage 50. I was hoping the Neel might bridge those worlds. In any case I'll charter one to try it out, but I'll also look at the alternatives - the current Outremers would certainly appeal more to my family than the older ones. I suspect as I get to within a year of purchase that I'll have a much clearer view of my criteria and relative priorities.

 

As to build quality, I've tried through a few channels to reach the creator of the scary video but no luck. Eric Brunell at Neel gave a reasoned explanation that suggested it was a one off situation. I made superficial connections with a couple of more recent purchasers. Their post purchase experiences seemed more in line with volume boat builders (manageable punch list, no threat to life).

I was looking at this thread again, and what your family wants is a motorboat.  So buy a big used honker, toss a Dragonfly 25 (or something) on the back, and have some sailing adventures ( with those willing to actually go sailing with you, or go singlehanded- you could even go out for a week, have them meet up you at a different locale) when you get to various paradises.  Probably cheaper.  It's amazing how everybody gets a lot of lip service about sailing, but one daysail and never again, much less cruising under sail- and we are going out of our way to keep these day sails gentle and well fed.  The balance between a minimal sailboat that really sails well and luxury is a vast chasm of weight & $$$$$$$$$$.  Motor boats are made for luxury. Exploit that, if you want company.  Then it isn't so awful a choice?  Maybe.  

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6 hours ago, Amati said:

I was looking at this thread again, and what your family wants is a motorboat.  So buy a big used honker, toss a Dragonfly 25 (or something) on the back, and have some sailing adventures ( with those willing to actually go sailing with you, or go singlehanded- you could even go out for a week, have them meet up you at a different locale) when you get to various paradises.  Probably cheaper.  It's amazing how everybody gets a lot of lip service about sailing, but one daysail and never again, much less cruising under sail- and we are going out of our way to keep these day sails gentle and well fed.  The balance between a minimal sailboat that really sails well and luxury is a vast chasm of weight & $$$$$$$$$$.  Motor boats are made for luxury. Exploit that, if you want company.  Then it isn't so awful a choice?  Maybe.  

Amati your advice is sensible. Although if I went with a powerboat I wouldn’t bring along a dragonfly or F-22 – although both would be fun...I’d go for a UFO and or kite board.A number of threads bring an overlapping perspective:

Blue water performance cruiser - do they exist?

Why haven’t' multihulls taken the world by storm

Cruising for long distances / duration is very different from racing.  As BJ Porter points out: the last 10% of performance becomes much less important; windward legs can often be avoided; and passage making is often less than 10% of the time.

Others have made the compelling case that low bridge decks are always to be avoided in open waters (a problem with most charter cats).

Monohulls (including powerboats) offer much better value at almost any price point.

Monohull sailboats tend to be teak caves.  What’s the point of being in paradise if you have to climb a ladder to see it. A nice view out the window is more common in powerboats.

Bridgedeck multis can offer attractive condo like living with great views from the living room, back deck etc.

In multihulls performance and townhouse accommodations don’t meet until the price passes a million.

With powerboats you do have to pay the fuel but when you add up all the costs...that’s not that significant.

I’m almost never unhappy with the motion of almost any sailboat. My family prefer the motion of multi in protected waters and (some of them) dislike the motion of any sailboat in open waters.

With a powerboat add in active fin stabilizers and Veem or Seakeeper gyro stabilizer and you have all the comfort of a waterfront townhouse.

I could see a powerboat for the French canals, the Rhine-Danube, Volga-Don and America’s great loop...but I just could not bring myself to motor across the pacific. I don’t know why but I have visceral  objection to that.

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Because you actually like to sail.  But!  Really light monohulls aren't that deep in the water, so you can see paradise out the windows without too much effort.  Heck, even J boats have hull windows, don't they?  

How about a huge French production sailboat?  That might make almost everybody happy!

 

:o

 

http://www.beneteau.com/us/oceanis/oceanis-551

But wait!  It can get worse!:lol:

https://www.jeanneauamerica.com/en/boats/4-jeanneau-yachts/100-jeanneau-58

So Pretty........

 

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An older sailor who had shifted to a live-aboard powerboat explained it to me this way.

"We wanted to live ON a boat, not IN a boat."  Made sense to me.

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So basically the group has decided that if you get a Neel you might as well get a powerboat.

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well , finally i bought neel 45 hull#1 POW WOW, it's fun and plenty fast..for a cruising tri..as the prototype of all the other neel 45 it's not as "perfect" as the ones that follow it however after 5 years in the charter biz in martinique the boat except cosmetic details was very sound...and way cheaper than the other on the market...it will stay at least 2 more years in the charter fleet of autremer concept  then i ll bring it back to europe..with a big nice refit before crossing the atlantic and converting it as a live aboard...clarivoile in youtube has posted a few videos of the neel 45  as seen from his DF 920. you should check that.. 

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Good Afternoon All,

 I am strongly considering a Neel 45 for a multi year round the world trip. The 45 may be a touch small, but I like the simplicity of design, reminds me of a 911. I am also considering an Antares 44i, or a larger boat like the Neel 51, Leopard 50, of Lagoon 52. 

    Best,

     Maldwin 

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and simplicity of use..this thing is a bicycle...there,s nothing complex to it...it’s just easy...except in port...where the 8,5 m width is something i’ve yet to master

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On 11/26/2017 at 12:51 PM, Maldwin said:

Neel 51

Don't know where you are at in your plans but the upcoming 47 looks like a nice compromise between the 45 and 51, with a more open layout like the 51 and proper cabins in the amas but with a lower profile "bridge deck" cabin due to not needing standing headroom to get down to the amas from inside.

Only thing I don't like is the fairly deep draft: a centerboard version if there is one would take care of that.

http://www.neel-trimarans.com/modele_bateau/neel-47/

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the Neel 51 layout is pretty cool i must admit, no more sleeping in a cave like most cats.

1 engine with walk around engine room, live aboard or cruising stuff like that really counts

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I find the 51 just looks really slab sided and high on the water, all that windage's  got to hurt the ability to go upwind.

The more I look at the 47 the more I like it as it seems to combine the best features of the 45 and 51. If you put a centerboard and retractable rudder of some sort to get <3ft draft (and also made sure the prop wasn't the first thing to hit the bottom, a "conventional" prop shaft looks like it would do the trick), it looks like the ideal liveaboard long range cruiser to me.

If you only put a sink in the ama cabins, you would end up with a lot fewer systems to maintain than on most cats, and much easier to access and keep an eye on. And you've got better weight distribution and less span over water so there should be very little slamming and significantly nicer motion at sea.

With a definite nicest owner's cabin and plenty nice enough accommodation for guests! The "ensuite" on the 51 is definitely nice but having one nice big "bathroom" downstairs like on the 47 seems like a smart compromise (I live in a house with one only one bathroom and it's not an issue even when we have guests so I don't see why you need a head in each cabin)...

Looks like a winner to me, I want one!

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i feel ( and it’s just a feeling as i haven’t seen the 47) that it was made to please the catamaran lovers while the 45 was made for the die hard monohull sailors. what i wonder about the 47..is the width of the amas ( which must be wider than on the45) are detrimental to the sailing performances ? 

my 45 is prety rough being hull #1 and the «  finish » of the 47 will be better than my 45 so it might be interesting , or not, as usual it depends on what you want to do with the boat

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These look like the first images of the Neel 47 sailing.

The knuckle out of the water looks a bit odd (just like on the renderings...) but it seems to be moving well in what looks like light conditions.


There are some interesting rigging choices:
Tiny looking self tacking staysail
Rather large looking (almost masthead) Jib (or is that basically a Genoa at this point?) but at least you can tack it without furling the inner jib.
Main sheet on a fixed "V" bridle (that looks like you could "walk" it to different attachment points).

 

I'm curious to see some actual pictures of the inside, especially the "guest" cabins...

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Airwick said:

These look like the first images of the Neel 47 sailing.

The knuckle out of the water looks a bit odd (just like on the renderings...) but it seems to be moving well in what looks like light conditions.


There are some interesting rigging choices:
Tiny looking self tacking staysail
Rather large looking (almost masthead) Jib (or is that basically a Genoa at this point?) but at least you can tack it without furling the inner jib.
Main sheet on a fixed "V" bridle (that looks like you could "walk" it to different attachment points).

 

I'm curious to see some actual pictures of the inside, especially the "guest" cabins...

I like this one better but worry about the low clearance tunnels offshore.

Neel47.thumb.jpg.b3f41df9a746dfb8cacb96c4cefe8036.jpg

 

From the side (below), the main hull appears to have a low prismatic, which is great for carrying weight but limits top speed?  A reasonable trade-off for many, perhaps.  From http://www.neel-trimarans.com/modele_bateau/neel-47/#spec

N47-Silhouette.jpg

Vue-de-dessus-I-1.png

Vue-de-dessus-II.png

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The toalett is far from the main bed-room - mayor problem that is perfectly solved in a catamaranconcept. 

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11 hours ago, SeaGul said:

The toalett is far from the main bed-room

I'm not sure I would call that a "major problem", I dont't have a toilet right next to my bed in my house! The 45 and 51 have already "solved" that, it's nice to see a different approach here and see what works best in practice.

17 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

low clearance tunnels offshore.

I dont' know how much of a problem that is on these boats, keep in mind that the width between hulls is a lot less than on a cat of similar size so you don't need nearly as much vertical clearance to avoid slamming. The reports on the 45 mention that slamming is not an issue at all.

The 47 is listed being about 2t more than the 45 so it's definitely a "bigger" boat and the main hull appears wider, or at least the width is carried much further down the transom. Compared to the 45, it looks like the stern on the main hull was cutoff so this would really be a 50'+ boat if the hull had the exact same proportions as the 45.

Not sure what the impact will be on performance but the layout looks a lot nicer to me.

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On 4/6/2019 at 4:54 PM, Airwick said:

I'm curious to see some actual pictures of the inside, especially the "guest" cabins...

 

On 4/6/2019 at 8:30 PM, ProaSailor said:

I like this one better but worry about the low clearance tunnels offshore.

I would have thought one of the main advantages of the ama cabins having separate entrances is raising the bridgedeck clearance.  Hopefully a company like Rapido can try something similiar on a lower weight trimaran.

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24 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

I would have thought one of the main advantages of the ama cabins having separate entrances is raising the bridgedeck clearance.

Or in this case reduce the height of the coach roof and freeboard. The bridgedeck clearance doesn't need to be nearly as high near the main hull so they are taking advantage of this by lowering the coach roof (like on the 45).

The 51 has to be very "tall" and slab sided to allow standing headroom inside above the inner side of the ama hull for access. The main saloon on the 47 stops well before the ama and can be much lower as a result, which reduces windage and should help upwind performance.

Only experience will tell if there are any slamming issues... 

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Those interested in the Neel 47 may have already seen this review.  Should be of interest to all, considering the original topic regarding 'build quality.'

The 47 is a different kettle of fish compared to the 45, but build quality may still be less than hoped for...

Neel 47 Trimaran Review, July 2019

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Yeah, the low tunnel to provide access into the amas looks too restrictive. And the price is SO high. You've really got to want a trimaran versus a cat. I'd also be concerned about re-sale value. The % of people wanting a trimaran is probably only 10-15% of prospective cat purchasers.

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4 hours ago, Zonker said:

Yeah, the low tunnel to provide access into the amas looks too restrictive. And the price is SO high. You've really got to want a trimaran versus a cat. I'd also be concerned about re-sale value. The % of people wanting a trimaran is probably only 10-15% of prospective cat purchasers.

It's true large cruiser category the Trimaran market seems smaller than catamaran market BUT it also looks like the supply may be disproportionately smaller. How many suppliers are their trying to serve the market Neel is targetting? A little looking on Yachtworld and other brokerage sites - looks like Neel is pretty much in its own space. Rapido is in there but I'd judge them more premium and performance. There is Dragonfly but generally smaller and folding. Corsairs - not same space as Neel (literally and market as well).

So maybe Neels should hold their value (but I worry the shoddy workmanship/finish will accelerate depreciation)

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Neel founder used to work for Fountain Pejot and he took their whole philosophy of targeting gullible first-timer buyers and charter operators with shiny boats that look really fresh on the first day but fall apart after a few years because the were cutting corners at every step.

I think the concept of a wide trimaran with tons of living space is a good one and with the right execution could have a bright future. But there are so many reports on horrible build quality it scary. And even worse is how Neel is treating those customers. Super shady company.

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18 minutes ago, KC375 said:

It's true large cruiser category the Trimaran market seems smaller than catamaran market BUT it also looks like the supply may be disproportionately smaller. How many suppliers are their trying to serve the market Neel is targetting? A little looking on Yachtworld and other brokerage sites - looks like Neel is pretty much in its own space. Rapido is in there but I'd judge them more premium and performance. There is Dragonfly but generally smaller and folding. Corsairs - not same space as Neel (literally and market as well).

So maybe Neels should hold their value (but I worry the shoddy workmanship/finish will accelerate depreciation)

Rapido should make some optional "cruising" amas with accomodations/more volume.  Flared for queen berths (or maybe just stacked singles and higher freeboard for headroom.

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15 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

Rapido should make some optional "cruising" amas with accomodations/more volume.  Flared for queen berths (or maybe just stacked singles and higher freeboard for headroom.

Good idea!  I’d love to stick my kids way out there & they don’t need much space, or electricity or running water. “Kids!  Go to your amas!”

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