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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Murphness

J 121

206 posts in this topic

There we go, her own topic! One Two One, don't forget it!

Who's buying one? This is probably the first J boat that actually appeals to me.

 

 

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Reminds me of Paul Biekers Riptide 41. Water ballast, short handed floating jib leads for reaching, just not as radical as the Riptide.

 

 

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Where did you see pricing? I was guessing $350k base boat. Close?

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water ballast? isnt that a little passe these days? :P

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water ballast? isnt that a little passe these days? :P

Not for a production boat?

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water ballast? isnt that a little passe these days? :P

 

Not really. Even the fat Class 40's with plenty of form stability still have it. For a relatively skinny boat with inadequate railmeat, this is the best solution, unless you decide to start introducing canting keels and lifting foils and thus almost doubling the cost of the boat.

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Where did you see pricing? I was guessing $350k base boat. Close?

I dunno Murph...base 112e is $325ish...so would have to guess this is closer to $400-450...

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water ballast? isnt that a little passe these days? :P

 

Not really. Even the fat Class 40's with plenty of form stability still have it. For a relatively skinny boat with inadequate railmeat, this is the best solution, unless you decide to start introducing canting keels and lifting foils and thus almost doubling the cost of the boat.

 

 

yeah i forgot about the class 40's.

 

carrion (sic)

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water ballast? isnt that a little passe these days? :P

 

Not really. Even the fat Class 40's with plenty of form stability still have it. For a relatively skinny boat with inadequate railmeat, this is the best solution, unless you decide to start introducing canting keels and lifting foils and thus almost doubling the cost of the boat.

yeah i forgot about the class 40's.

 

 

carrion (sic)

Most canters have water ballast too.

 

The water ballast is my favorite part of this design. We have a J/120 and have only sailed with more than two people twice. Only 4 people those two times. I have zero interest in sailing around with a crowd.

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This^^^^ is an interesting point. I wonder if an interior that is more finished similar to the option with the J145 will be offered.

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so is this a real boat or just them testing the waters to see how many peeps will jump on and start the ball rolling?

what is draft, price point, and other specs?

no real numbers to look at to see what it exactly is.

 

all in all, if anybody can make it work they can.

 

my guess is 15-20 boats sold in first year

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so is this a real boat or just them testing the waters to see how many peeps will jump on and start the ball rolling?

what is draft, price point, and other specs?

no real numbers to look at to see what it exactly is.

 

all in all, if anybody can make it work they can.

 

my guess is 15-20 boats sold in first year

 

I don't think J Boats is big on vapor ware. I imagine this was a collaboration with current owners like Blur and there are deposits in hand. I think it's a solid concept, hits an excellent target and looks like a boat rather than a creased whale. I'm going to win the lotto this week, so I'll get my deposit in soon.

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This^^^^ is an interesting point. I wonder if an interior that is more finished similar to the option with the J145 will be offered.

 

From what I read you can at least get some varnished trim. I'm willing to bet they'd nail in some more trim for the right price.

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Still no real answers on the important questions:

Displacement, draft, performance prediction, price.

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Still no real answers on the important questions:

Displacement, draft, performance prediction, price.

 

vs Expectations:

 

a bit heavier

shallower

not as fast

a bit more

 

 

but still a very nice concept

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Still no real answers on the important questions:

Displacement, draft, performance prediction, price.

 

I'm sure a J Boats dealer would love to answer your questions.

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all the 122's were built in europe

 

have they said anything about where this will be built?

 

i would guess 75% or more of the sales will be in europe, and most people think the build quality of the 122 was better than any big J/Boats that were ever built in the USA.

 

it would make sense for them to build the boats at j composites in france

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Still no real answers on the important questions:

Displacement, draft, performance prediction, price.

 

I'm sure a J Boats dealer would love to answer your questions.

 

I'll email key yachting then

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Built in the good US of A in Rhode Island

 

Estimate base price is inline with the 112e but not definite yet

 

Preliminary at this point but:

LOA 40'

LWL 35.78'

Beam 12.30'

Draft 7.75'

DSPL 11,500lbs

Upwind SA 961

Downwind SA 2164

DSPL/L 112

Diesel Aux. 30hp

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Still no real answers on the important questions:

Displacement, draft, performance prediction, price.

 

vs Expectations:

 

a bit heavier

shallower

not as fast

a bit more

 

 

but still a very nice concept

 

 

 

Exactly the projections people made for the J/111 as well as the J/88 :D

 

I think we can all say that those boats turned out pretty good despite all the complaints (as a Canon user, the Internet reaction when they launch a new camera is exactly the same; to late, to little, to expensive - but then it's spot on, and a fantastic camera, for many people).

 

It's not that hard to scale the 88/111 numbers to a 121.

 

I have a hard time seeing a "base price is inline with the 112e". Since that's where the J/111 is :)

I would expect it to end up close to the J/122.

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Inline. As in in a line, or linear fit. So extrapolate the 112e priced up to 121 and you get your price... That's how I read it anyway.

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Base price is $385,000.00 FOB

 

rumour is the draft is 7 foot 9

 

Boats being built by same builder of J111 and J70

 

Not sure how IRC or ORC will deal with the water ballast, and well would be nice to know if they plan to use carbon or something exotic for layup.

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Inline. As in in a line, or linear fit. So extrapolate the 112e priced up to 121 and you get your price... That's how I read it anyway.

 

 

Ah, so then "inline" with the J/88 and J/111. Since J/112E and J/122E is another line (with similar pricing structure) :-)

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Inline. As in in a line, or linear fit. So extrapolate the 112e priced up to 121 and you get your price... That's how I read it anyway.

 

 

Ah, so then "inline" with the J/88 and J/111. Since J/112E and J/122E is another line (with similar pricing structure) :-)

 

 

So should J-Boats have named this the J/Blur? Looks right up your alley, shorthanded distance racing

 

"if I were going to modify the 111 I would..."

 

Wala...J 1-2-1.

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Inline. As in in a line, or linear fit. So extrapolate the 112e priced up to 121 and you get your price... That's how I read it anyway.

 

 

Ah, so then "inline" with the J/88 and J/111. Since J/112E and J/122E is another line (with similar pricing structure) :-)

 

 

So should J-Boats have named this the J/Blur? Looks right up your alley, shorthanded distance racing

 

"if I were going to modify the 111 I would..."

 

Wala...J 1-2-1.

 

 

 

I think the twists with 1-2-1 is pretty cool - and the boat looks perfect. I hope they do their homework on deck layout and sail handling systems (ie halyard locks, bow sprit, steering etc) but the overall concept is spot on.

 

Disclaimer: I havn't ordered one :)

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I think the twists with 1-2-1 is pretty cool - and the boat looks perfect. I hope they do their homework on deck layout and sail handling systems (ie halyard locks, bow sprit, steering etc) but the overall concept is spot on.

 

Disclaimer: I havn't ordered one :)

Not disputing at all, but what sprit change are you hoping for?

 

I'd root for a Spectra/shock cord bobstay like many owners have added. Code Zero's and other furling headsails have/are growing in popularity, and Hall won't condone them with any previous bow sprit design. It's time for Hall & J/Boats to address the issue...overdue IMO.

 

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I think the twists with 1-2-1 is pretty cool - and the boat looks perfect. I hope they do their homework on deck layout and sail handling systems (ie halyard locks, bow sprit, steering etc) but the overall concept is spot on.

 

Disclaimer: I havn't ordered one :)

Not disputing at all, but what sprit change are you hoping for?

 

I'd root for a Spectra/shock cord bobstay like many owners have added. Code Zero's and other furling headsails have/are growing in popularity, and Hall won't condone them with any previous bow sprit design. It's time for Hall & J/Boats to address the issue...overdue IMO.

 

 

Not really sure what's the best way to do it, but it's not possible to run a proper "upwind" code 0 (3Di + 50% mid girth + REAL forestay tension) from the end of the sprit. That's one of the reasons we run ours "mid sprit" and even then pushing the limits. http://www.blur.se/2014/08/29/j111-blur-code-0-setup/

 

I'd be happy to implement a similar arrangement if I get a 121, but then with a halyard lock and a proper 2:1 tackline.

 

As you say, this would be a good time för J/boats and Hall to re-invent the retractable sprit :-)

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I think the twists with 1-2-1 is pretty cool - and the boat looks perfect. I hope they do their homework on deck layout and sail handling systems (ie halyard locks, bow sprit, steering etc) but the overall concept is spot on.

 

Disclaimer: I havn't ordered one :)

 

 

Yet. ;)

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I think the twists with 1-2-1 is pretty cool - and the boat looks perfect. I hope they do their homework on deck layout and sail handling systems (ie halyard locks, bow sprit, steering etc) but the overall concept is spot on.

 

Disclaimer: I havn't ordered one :)

 

Not disputing at all, but what sprit change are you hoping for?

I'd root for a Spectra/shock cord bobstay like many owners have added. Code Zero's and other furling headsails have/are growing in popularity, and Hall won't condone them with any previous bow sprit design. It's time for Hall & J/Boats to address the issue...overdue IMO.

Not really sure what's the best way to do it, but it's not possible to run a proper "upwind" code 0 (3Di + 50% mid girth + REAL forestay tension) from the end of the sprit. That's one of the reasons we run ours "mid sprit" and even then pushing the limits. http://www.blur.se/2014/08/29/j111-blur-code-0-setup/

 

I'd be happy to implement a similar arrangement if I get a 121, but then with a halyard lock and a proper 2:1 tackline.

 

As you say, this would be a good time för J/boats and Hall to re-invent the retractable sprit :-)

Based on the J/121 website drawing, I assume they're planning a bobstay. It could be very simple as many J/111 & other J owners/riggers have already added them.

post-301-0-32807400-1476643255_thumb.png

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Based on the J/121 website drawing, I assume they're planning a bobstay. It could be very simple as many J/111 & other J owners/riggers have already added them.

 

 

 

I know. But the sprit + systems need proper dimensioning to handle REAL load.

 

The standard setup + bobstay is fine for a IRC "code" w 75% mid girth in at TWA 80. It's a different thing with a "masthead genoa" or J0 in 3Di where you achieve tension with a 2:1 halyard before maxing out the backstay. We've tried both, and measured loads with a Rigsense, and the difference is huge.

 

The J/111 (and the J/121) can't handle a tight reaching with a big code, so the loads from the sails are moderate. The big issue is forestay tension at tight angles, which is key both with jibs, as well as different code setups.

 

It would be cool to find a way to "lock off" the sprit when in place, since the big force ends up on sprit outhaul (1 ton load in the forestay becomes 1500 kg on the outhaul when you tack at the sprit end). Constrictor jammer in the bow or some other clever devide :)

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It would be cool to find a way to "lock off" the sprit when in place, since the big force ends up on sprit outhaul (1 ton load in the forestay becomes 1500 kg on the outhaul when you tack at the sprit end). Constrictor jammer in the bow or some other clever devide :)

 

 

+1 And if the sprit isn't 100% completely extended or slips back just a little the bobstay does nothing. Get loaded up with the code 0 and the sprit isn't fully extended you could potentially be saying goodbye to the sprit and hello to a very interesting code 0 douse. :blink: Can you imagine trying to pull in the sail as half of a shredded carbon fiber sprit is violently being whipped around attached to the tack? Probably too much to ask for but a sprit system that isn't prone to leaks would be nice too.

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Please add a second low fricton rinf for a second tack line as well.

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It would be cool to find a way to "lock off" the sprit when in place, since the big force ends up on sprit outhaul (1 ton load in the forestay becomes 1500 kg on the outhaul when you tack at the sprit end). Constrictor jammer in the bow or some other clever devide :)

 

 

+1 And if the sprit isn't 100% completely extended or slips back just a little the bobstay does nothing. Get loaded up with the code 0 and the sprit isn't fully extended you could potentially be saying goodbye to the sprit and hello to a very interesting code 0 douse. :blink: Can you imagine trying to pull in the sail as half of a shredded carbon fiber sprit is violently being whipped around attached to the tack? Probably too much to ask for but a sprit system that isn't prone to leaks would be nice too.

 

A latch/lock system between the aft sprit bearing and the sprit itself would not be too hard to fabricate. Pull the sprit out until the latch engages and reverse with a trip cord to release, having the bobstay come full tight at the same time might be tougher. Maybe a lock which is pulled close and also tensions the bobstay concurrently would be viable?

 

A little surprised to not see twin rudders on in the 121 like on the 11s but maybe they thought the boat was narrow enough to not warrant them.

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I was honestly surprised that they released another boat with essentially the same formula. I was convinced their next boat was going to be tp style, with massive beamy open cockpit. Guess if it aint broke...

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I was honestly surprised that they released another boat with essentially the same formula. I was convinced their next boat was going to be tp style, with massive beamy open cockpit. Guess if it aint broke...

I wasn't surprised.

* Most J/Boats designs target a broader group - mostly racer/cruisers (in that order). They've been burned (low volume) when they've tried niche performance boats like the J/125 and especially the J/90 - both great boats that appealed to much smaller numbers of buyers. I can't imagine they'd attempt a TP style boat.

* Another guiding theme seems to be ease of sail/fewer crew instead of big crews, they were early adopters with sprits, lines led to cockpit, RF, etc.

* And replicating a "formula" in several sizes has also been a longstanding J/Boats trademark all the way back to the J/27, J/29, J/33 and J/35 days.

 

Seems like they've done pretty well with most of their designs.

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J121*/Pogo12.50


Base price $385k (USA built) / $235k (French built)**


LOA 40 / 41


Beam 12.3 / 14.8


Draft 7.75 / 9.8 (swing back keel to 4.6)


Dspl 11.5k / 11k


Water Ballast +1k / NA


Upwind SA 961 / 1151


Downwind SA 2164 / 2346


*From previous poster


**From Pogo Structures website 2015 list base price converted from euros


Is that base price on the pogo just wrong or misleading (or did I just read/calculate that wrong)? Doesn’t seem so from a recent purchaser of one who posted his spend on another thread. Also, I understand that the pogo is built exceptionally well (and it’s nice that there’s enough foam in it to make it unsinkable).


Assuming those prices are right, does it really cost that much more to build boats in the USA?


I would think the J121 would be better in light air and probably generally better upwind. I would think the pogo would generally be better reaching from say 60 to 140. They’re probably generally similar past 140. J121 probably more satisfying racing (unless ocean racing) given more range of performance, but definitely paying for it. Of course, isn’t it going to get slaughtered on rating with water ballast???


I’d be curious what other thought.

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5 years down the road, when you go to sell the boat, which one will retain better resale value? Not as familiar with Pogo, but J usually does really well in the retain resale value....

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I've struggled to find the J124 specs to compare against the 121. Can anyone help? Also who has had a look at hull form between the 2?

I thought the 124 was a good boat for me. Why should I change my mind towards the new design?

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I've struggled to find the J124 specs to compare against the 121. Can anyone help? Also who has had a look at hull form between the 2?

I thought the 124 was a good boat for me. Why should I change my mind towards the new design?

https://www.jboats.com/j124-tech-specs

Dimensions ft/lb m/kg

LOA 40.70 12.40

LWL 36.20 11.03

Beam 11.33 3.45

Standard Draft 7.00 2.13

Standard Ballast 5,000 2,268

Displacement 12,600 5,715

Diesel Aux. Engine 40 hp 40 hp

100% SA

754 70.08

I 49.00 14.93

J 14.00 4.27

P 48.40 14.75

E 17.00 5.18

SA/Dspl 22 22

Dspl/L 119 119

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J121*/Pogo12.50

Base price $385k (USA built) / $235k (French built)**

The pogo is 254000 Eur.

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According to their website the base Pogo 12.50 is 211.249 EUR excluding VAT (VAT about 21% in Europe).

Horses for courses:

The Pogo is a great boat with its strengths in heavy downwind sailing. E.g. in under 12 knt a J/111 is faster on a long distance course.

121 most likely (compared to the Pogo) better in the light but probably less stable/powerfull in heavy (down)wind.

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I've struggled to find the J124 specs to compare against the 121. Can anyone help? Also who has had a look at hull form between the 2?

I thought the 124 was a good boat for me. Why should I change my mind towards the new design?

 

I would think if you wanted to race offshore at all, the 121 is a better boat. The 124 is a big daysailor. I see them as completely different boats.

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2 years ago, i was at a cocktail party with a member of NYYC. He said the NYYC Invitational committee wanted a new boat for the Invitational Regatta and was working with Jboats. They wanted a boat that would be the official NYYC boat and a boat that would have interest throughout the country and around the world.

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how's this different from a J122?

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how's this different from a J122?

 

it's 10 centimeters shorter?

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how's this different from a J122?

 

 

Same way a J/111 is different to a J/109.

Or about 10 knots extra on a good downwind :D

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2 years ago, i was at a cocktail party with a member of NYYC. He said the NYYC Invitational committee wanted a new boat for the Invitational Regatta and was working with Jboats. They wanted a boat that would be the official NYYC boat and a boat that would have interest throughout the country and around the world.

 

Bingo. This was my immediate thought as well. Those Swan42's could use a replacement...

 

... less crew

... more capable (in shore, off shore, short handed)

... faster

... better built

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5 hulls reserved so far according to my dealer. 2 slots available for the first part of 2018.

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5 hulls reserved so far according to my dealer. 2 slots available for the first part of 2018.

 

did your dealer mention where the buyers are located?

 

USA, Europe.., somewhere else?

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Not besides 'total, globally'. Curious about where they are located myself, so will ask next time we talk.

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Thanks Midpack. I had found those. But where are the 121 specs to compare? Swimsailor - I'm one of those mad Kiwis who are used to big open cockpits (I've even raced a Mini). So the 124 is luxury. Its more where the relative sweet spot of each lies, and probably full crewed vs short crewed relative performance.

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Thanks Midpack. I had found those. But where are the 121 specs to compare? Swimsailor - I'm one of those mad Kiwis who are used to big open cockpits (I've even raced a Mini). So the 124 is luxury. Its more where the relative sweet spot of each lies, and probably full crewed vs short crewed relative performance.

 

From above it looks like they're taking their time with devo on the 121. (2018 delivery) Makes me think some important things need to be worked out. Twin rudders? Deck layout? The 124 is beautiful. I wouldn't want to cross an ocean in one though if I had the choice. But you're right, I'm sure your perspective is unique having raced Minis!

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Thanks Midpack. I had found those. But where are the 121 specs to compare? Swimsailor - I'm one of those mad Kiwis who are used to big open cockpits (I've even raced a Mini). So the 124 is luxury. Its more where the relative sweet spot of each lies, and probably full crewed vs short crewed relative performance.

J/Boats will post J/121 specs as soon as they're finalized, patience...

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Thanks Midpack. I had found those. But where are the 121 specs to compare? Swimsailor - I'm one of those mad Kiwis who are used to big open cockpits (I've even raced a Mini). So the 124 is luxury. Its more where the relative sweet spot of each lies, and probably full crewed vs short crewed relative performance.

 

From above it looks like they're taking their time with devo on the 121. (2018 delivery) Makes me think some important things need to be worked out. Twin rudders? Deck layout? The 124 is beautiful. I wouldn't want to cross an ocean in one though if I had the choice. But you're right, I'm sure your perspective is unique having raced Minis!

 

My local J-boat dealer told me without hesitation that the 121 will have a single rudder.

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Just look at it, pretty typical J boats hullform. Doesn't exactly lend itself to double rudders.

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Just look at it, pretty typical J boats hullform. Doesn't exactly lend itself to double rudders.

 

That's what I was thinking but it looks just a tad wider to my eye. And the J/11s has twin rudders for some reason. But J boats does have a solid formula that seems to work. Why fix what ain't broke, right?

 

My bigger point is that based on delivery dates it seems there is more devo to be done before this cool design is finalized. Has anyone looked at announcement to first delivery times for recent models?

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True about the 11s, but that's a weird boat. Are they marketed at all in the States, I've never seen one? More to that point, did they ever build more than one?

 

Anyhow, yeah I definitely agree that there's a lot likely to be worked out on the 121 still but if there are deposits down I'm going to assume a lot of the big picture stuff (i.e. overall configuration) is locked down.

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5 hulls reserved so far according to my dealer. 2 slots available for the first part of 2018.

Reserved doesn't necessarily mean actual owners, could be dealer spec/demo boats...

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water ballast? isnt that a little passe these days? :P

Not really. Even the fat Class 40's with plenty of form stability still have it. For a relatively skinny boat with inadequate railmeat, this is the best solution, unless you decide to start introducing canting keels and lifting foils and thus almost doubling the cost of the boat.

yeah i forgot about the class 40's.

 

 

carrion (sic)

Most canters have water ballast too.

 

The water ballast is my favorite part of this design. We have a J/120 and have only sailed with more than two people twice. Only 4 people those two times. I have zero interest in sailing around with a crowd.

 

We're taking 10 on our J120 for RTC. I've also double handed it three times for the Northern Century 100. Either way. Crowds are fun if they're friends. It's a social activity.

 

I think the boat speed/VMG you gain up wind with a crowd you more than loose down wind.

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how's this different from a J122?

 

 

Same way a J/111 is different to a J/109.

Or about 10 knots extra on a good downwind :D

 

 

Wouldn't comparing to the the 121 to the 122E vis-a-vis the 111 to the 112E make more sense?

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how's this different from a J122?

 

 

Same way a J/111 is different to a J/109.

Or about 10 knots extra on a good downwind :D

 

 

Wouldn't comparing to the the 121 to the 122E vis-a-vis the 111 to the 112E make more sense?

 

 

 

The 111 & 121 are similar concepts, pretty much as the 122 were the big sister of the 109.

112E is a new series, and have little in common w the 122E (more than the E, but on the 122 it's just a facelift).

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Looks like an interesting boat. UK buyers will not like the post Brexit price in £ but hope this might improve.

 

I have no experience or knowledge of water ballast boats. Would this system work for racing "round the cans" on relatively short courses in the Solent or is the J121 really more for offshore or longer distance racing with fewer corners on the racecourse?

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Looks like an interesting boat. UK buyers will not like the post Brexit price in £ but hope this might improve.

 

I have no experience or knowledge of water ballast boats. Would this system work for racing "round the cans" on relatively short courses in the Solent or is the J121 really more for offshore or longer distance racing with fewer corners on the racecourse?

 

To answer the question about water ballast for a number of you, the basic idea is to reduce the number of crew needed to sail offshore or around the buoys. 100 US gallon tanks on each side represent about 800 lbs or 5 average size crew members. The target is about a 45 second "dump" from one tank to another using 6" pipe. So, for most Solent racing scenarios, that's more than enough time to move the water (BTW, that's over 3x faster than current designs in Class 40s). Offshore, of course, that's more than enough time, even using the electric water pump which will use one central intake.

 

The use of water ballast systems has been widely used for well over two decades. The systems have been refined for IMOCA 60 and Maxi 100 ft canting keelers. It's cheap, efficient, and works well compared to either (a) lots of crew or (B) canting keels. The J design team consulted with the best in the business, including engineers that have done work for IMOCA 60s, Class 40s, and the 100 ft Comanche.

 

The discussion regards ratings is a bit premature at the moment. On-going dialogue with various rating groups is focused on encouraging better sailing, easier to handle boats. For example, PHRF, ORC and IRC would permit up to 12 persons to sail on a 40-41 ft boat- which is absurd from a logistics standpoint. There is no question, the economy and logistics weigh heavily on many owner's sailing schedules- it's no wonder short-handed events continue to grow in popularity.

 

Design considerations? The hull is aimed at sailing fast offshore, optimized to the basic parameters of 15% beat/ 65% reach/ 20% run. As a result, it's beamier relative to the J/111 and far more "powerful" in terms of righting moment. The 1-2-1 will be quick reaching, without sacrificing uphill VMG. The key "horsepower" ratios of SA/DSPL and SA/WS are closer to the famous J/125 than the J/111- with much longer relative luff-lengths on main, gennakers and Codes (Zero and CodeBlade)- that will give you an idea of offwind potential.

 

Relative speeds? The J/111 today can sail faster around the track than existing Class 40s designs in anything under 8 kts TWS. That has been proven in Fastnets, Bermuda and the recent Middle Sea Race. The 1-2-1 is 4 ft longer on SWL and can fit into the Class 40 rules, which means owners may be able to expand their sailing horizons and fit in as a "sub-class".

 

Ease of sailing? The target is to have at least one halyard winch electric standard, with the option to have both primary winches electric (that is a safety consideration as well since it makes it easier to "pull" a person up the rig for double-handed sailors). That feature, plus providing auto-pilots will greatly simplify boat-handling for 1-2-1 class racing around the cans and offshore.

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Wait, Stu, are you saying that the 121 could race in Class 40 events if it wanted to!?

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Wait, Stu, are you saying that the 121 could race in Class 40 events if it wanted to!?

 

That is the basic idea. The issue with current C40 designs is that they are too wide (lots of wetted surface), too big a rig (start reefing in 17 kts TWS upwind), too much water and too deep on the keel. No question, 17+ TWS from 110 to 165 TWA they will be quicker. However, upwind in breeze or lighter conditions, the 1-2-1 should give away very little in terms of relative performance.

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I think the twists with 1-2-1 is pretty cool - and the boat looks perfect. I hope they do their homework on deck layout and sail handling systems (ie halyard locks, bow sprit, steering etc) but the overall concept is spot on.

 

Disclaimer: I havn't ordered one :)

Not disputing at all, but what sprit change are you hoping for?

 

I'd root for a Spectra/shock cord bobstay like many owners have added. Code Zero's and other furling headsails have/are growing in popularity, and Hall won't condone them with any previous bow sprit design. It's time for Hall & J/Boats to address the issue...overdue IMO.

 

 

Not really sure what's the best way to do it, but it's not possible to run a proper "upwind" code 0 (3Di + 50% mid girth + REAL forestay tension) from the end of the sprit. That's one of the reasons we run ours "mid sprit" and even then pushing the limits. http://www.blur.se/2014/08/29/j111-blur-code-0-setup/

 

I'd be happy to implement a similar arrangement if I get a 121, but then with a halyard lock and a proper 2:1 tackline.

 

As you say, this would be a good time för J/boats and Hall to re-invent the retractable sprit :-)

 

 

Peter- the basic idea as you have outlined is already a design consideration. As you recall, the Ultimate 30s had a very basic, easy to operate "sprit lock" made of machined alum or SS.

 

Discussions with various sailmakers (North, Quantum, UK, Doyle, Ullman, etc) all center on the relative merits of flying a "1/2 pole" or "full pole". Chicago-Mackinac experience shows that J/111s with the Code Zero mounted on the end of the fully extended sprit are faster than those who have tried "1/2 pole". 8 hours under C-0 conditions more than proved that point with about a dozen boats!

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I'm looking forward to seeing these things on the water.

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I love when insiders chime in. Answers a lot of questions. Now, if we can address the thoughts behind one-two-one thing. Can we just say one-twenty-one?

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Love the design brief, but i wish they would substitute that leaky retractable sprit that takes up unnecessary space below and would use an external articulating sprit, kind of like on class 40's, that can be articulated aft for entrances into tight marinas.

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Love the design brief, but i wish they would substitute that leaky retractable sprit that takes up unnecessary space below and would use an external articulating sprit, kind of like on class 40's, that can be articulated aft for entrances into tight marinas.

It's well documented they had some issues with sprit seals in the early years. But I've owned 3 J/Sprit boats over the past 18 years, and I've yet to have an issue with leaks around the bowsprit. Have you had/seen issues firsthand?

 

Nothing against external sprits, but that's another subject.

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Love the design brief, but i wish they would substitute that leaky retractable sprit that takes up unnecessary space below and would use an external articulating sprit, kind of like on class 40's, that can be articulated aft for entrances into tight marinas.

It's well documented they had some issues with sprit seals in the early years. But I've owned 3 J/Sprit boats over the past 18 years, and I've yet to have an issue with leaks around the bowsprit. Have you had/seen issues firsthand?

 

Nothing against external sprits, but that's another subject.

 

 

+1

 

No issues on either the 111 or the 109, despite some pretty rough sailing.

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My J/105 has a large drainage hole (2in) in the outer tube as it passes through the anchor locker. Also never had any leaks into the boat (built in France) in some rough conditions offshore South Africa.

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On my 111 a there is a little bit of leakage through the sprit. Not an issue when in race mode with an empty boat. But when cruising you better take your cushions and sleeping bags out of the v berth when you expect the sprit to hit some waves.

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We had an issue with the drain in the anchor locker blocking up on a rough race up the English Channel. The anchor locker filled up and every time the boat hit a wave there was a fountain into the fore cabin. Now before going offshore we clear the drain holes and tape over the lid. No issues since.

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On the 122 isnt the sprit completely encapsulated, even when retracted? Pretty hard for that to leak. Perhaps this will have something similar. That said, we've not had issues with our 120 sprit leaking after lots of offshore miles.

 

Not sure I get the comment about it taking up unnecessary space either. Space for what? It's a 40 footer with an otherwise empty bow.

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ZeeZee, check the end cap on your pole. Our 109 had a slight drip through the pole. I sealed the exterior pole end cap with life caulk (10 minutes) and no more leak. Buried the bow several times since and not a drop below. The retractable pole is a non issue.

 

 

On my 111 a there is a little bit of leakage through the sprit. Not an issue when in race mode with an empty boat. But when cruising you better take your cushions and sleeping bags out of the v berth when you expect the sprit to hit some waves.

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Thanks for the tip cercole.

However in my boat I have some leakage when beating upwind and the leakage is just behind the bulkhead of the anchor locker. So it must come through the plastic bearing of the sprit.

In case of a non waterproof end cap I would expect the water to run into the pole and then leak at the inside end. But when the pole is retracted that inside end is more than 2 meters away from the point where I see it leaking.

Think that although most water will be dropped from the pole inside the anchor locker, some water stays attached to the pole and makes it into the boat.

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On the 122 isnt the sprit completely encapsulated, even when retracted? Pretty hard for that to leak. Perhaps this will have something similar. That said, we've not had issues with our 120 sprit leaking after lots of offshore miles.

 

Not sure I get the comment about it taking up unnecessary space either. Space for what? It's a 40 footer with an otherwise empty bow.

 

The 1-2-1 will have the sprit completely encapsulated in a tube from the forward bulkhead aft to the main bulkhead- much like the J/133 engineering. Yes, most seals have been addressed correctly (we hope) over time. That is why there are large drain holes in the forward "sprit compartment" for J/70s, J/80s, J/97s, J88s, J/105s, etc etc.

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On the 122 isnt the sprit completely encapsulated, even when retracted? Pretty hard for that to leak. Perhaps this will have something similar. That said, we've not had issues with our 120 sprit leaking after lots of offshore miles.

 

Not sure I get the comment about it taking up unnecessary space either. Space for what? It's a 40 footer with an otherwise empty bow.

 

The 1-2-1 will have the sprit completely encapsulated in a tube from the forward bulkhead aft to the main bulkhead- much like the J/133 engineering. Yes, most seals have been addressed correctly (we hope) over time. That is why there are large drain holes in the forward "sprit compartment" for J/70s, J/80s, J/97s, J88s, J/105s, etc etc.

 

 

 

Love the boat, but do we really have to say 1-2-1?

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This is america, you don't have to say anything you don't want to!

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The 1-2-1 will have the sprit completely encapsulated in a tube from the forward bulkhead aft to the main bulkhead- much like the J/133 engineering.

 

 

Added weight :-)

 

I often get the questions why J/boats don't hide halyards (or furlers) under deck, but I really like the no-nonsence approach where everything is accessible and easy to inspect and replace if necessary.

 

Also, if I have a leak, I want to know asap. To have water standing inside a tube in the bow is not a good way to hide a problem.

 

On several J/133 the tube have been removed, and I could see this happening on the 121 as well.

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They hid the furler on the One-Two-Two and it was a fucking nightmare. Good reason to not do that in the future.

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Thanks for the tip cercole.

However in my boat I have some leakage when beating upwind and the leakage is just behind the bulkhead of the anchor locker. So it must come through the plastic bearing of the sprit.

In case of a non waterproof end cap I would expect the water to run into the pole and then leak at the inside end. But when the pole is retracted that inside end is more than 2 meters away from the point where I see it leaking.

Think that although most water will be dropped from the pole inside the anchor locker, some water stays attached to the pole and makes it into the boat.

 

I've been chasing a sprit leak on our J/109 for about a year now. You might want to check the anchor locker bulkhead at the top as it meets the deck on the starboard side, tucked up above the sprit housing. It's really fricken hard to see unless you practice yoga regularly and even more of a PITA to reach which is probably why it was missed when the boat was built. After I sealed that up with west system six10 I sprayed the crap out of the anchor locker with a hose and it was completely dry. I thought I finally had it sealed up but there was a little bit of water after last weekend racing in 30+ knot winds and pouring rain. I'm hoping that was just from the sprit itself being wet as we retracted it otherwise I might be out of ideas. I've replaced the seals, sealed up every part of the sprit hardware, drilled a hole in the sump of the sprit housing to aid in drainage into the locker, etc. Before I die I'm determined to have a dry sprit.

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How big of a hole did you put in sump of the sprit housing? On our 120 that hole is about 3" in diameter.

 

I would think retracting the sprit on a wet day would inevitably lead to some water on the inside though.

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How big of a hole did you put in sump of the sprit housing? On our 120 that hole is about 3" in diameter.

 

I would think retracting the sprit on a wet day would inevitably lead to some water on the inside though.

 

Sounds like not big enough, think I drilled a couple 3/8" holes. Probably wouldn't hurt to make a bigger one like you mentioned.

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water ballast? isnt that a little passe these days? :P

Not really. Even the fat Class 40's with plenty of form stability still have it. For a relatively skinny boat with inadequate railmeat, this is the best solution, unless you decide to start introducing canting keels and lifting foils and thus almost doubling the cost of the boat.

yeah i forgot about the class 40's.

 

 

carrion (sic)

Most canters have water ballast too.

 

The water ballast is my favorite part of this design. We have a J/120 and have only sailed with more than two people twice. Only 4 people those two times. I have zero interest in sailing around with a crowd.

 

 

Any details on how the water ballast system on the J/121 works. I seem to recall some mention off 6" pipes, so primarily gravity feed?

 

On the other hand, from looking at the renderings, it looks like the tanks may be located more aft and near deck level, so a pump would have to be involved to some degree?

 

The reason I ask is because I'm considering refitting my 34 footer with a WB system for much the same reasons as stated by the J marketing department. Not an extreme system - will have proportionately the same amount of WB as the J/121 but with tanks under the settees.

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Is there any other production boat of this size with water ballast? Any of those have a decent production run?

 

Or is J/boats about to bring water ballast to a much wider market than it has seen before?

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Is there any other production boat of this size with water ballast? Any of those have a decent production run?

There have been several mid-20 LOA Macgregor, Hunter and Catalina models with non-transferable water ballast for at least 20 years. But I assume you mean transferable/"dumpable" water/weight like the J/121, that might be new to a mainstream production boat. Wouldn't be the first first for J/Boats.

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Is there any other production boat of this size with water ballast? Any of those have a decent production run?

There have been several mid-20 LOA Macgregor, Hunter and Catalina models with non-transferable water ballast for at least 20 years. But I assume you mean transferable/"dumpable" water/weight like the J/121, that might be new to a mainstream production boat. Wouldn't be the first first for J/Boats.

 

Yes, I did mean transferable water ballast. Static water ballast has indeed been used on some quite pedestrian cruising boats, as well as on the innovative big dinghies made by Swallow Boats in Wales, such as the very successful BayRaider 20.

 

25 years ago, J/boats popularised retractable sprits in racer-cruisers, and others followed. If J/boats makes a success of the J/121, might that encourage other mainstream production brands to include water ballast in their performance models?

 

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I wonder if they will build more J121s than Akilaria RC1s or Figaro IIs

Is there any other production boat of this size with water ballast? Any of those have a decent production run?

 

Or is J/boats about to bring water ballast to a much wider market than it has seen before?

I wonder if they will build more J121s than Akilaria RC1s, pogo S1s or Figaro IIs, they are all production built water ballasted yachts

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I had forgotten about the Figaro II, which has put lot of hulls on the water. That will be a hard target for the J to beat.

However, the Figaro and the Classe40s tend to be a bit of a breed apart, with their own circuits. The J/121 is likely to appear in more mixed fleets, so if they catch on, it might encourage other builders to make water ballasted boats for a less specialised market.

 

That's what happened with sprits. They were were well-established in a few niches, but the J/105 and its succesors allowed mom+pop boats to have sprits.

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I had forgotten about the Figaro II, which has put lot of hulls on the water. That will be a hard target for the J to beat.

 

However, the Figaro and the Classe40s tend to be a bit of a breed apart, with their own circuits. The J/121 is likely to appear in more mixed fleets, so if they catch on, it might encourage other builders to make water ballasted boats for a less specialised market.

 

That's what happened with sprits. They were were well-established in a few niches, but the J/105 and its succesors allowed mom+pop boats to have sprits.

 

 

The big difference is that sprits simplifies sailing without sacrificing cruising comfort.

 

Water ballast can be pretty intrusive (plumbing + reduced living/storage space) and there is a hard compromise between performance (big tanks + big pipes) and comfort/looks. For the absolute majority of cruiser/racers it's easier to just take a reef.

 

That said, I'm sure J/boats take on the concept will take it to a new level.

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Won't that just make it a J122 with two wheels, kinda kills the whole "less crew" thing, which features prominently in their advertising / design brief.

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re: J/121 Murray Yacht Sales is reporting "Its been an exciting two weeks since announcing the J/121 project and we are pleased to report five hullsreserved with numerous additional clients in discussions with dealers."

 

I didn't realize water ballast was optional, would that even be a workable design brief (with and without)?

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Won't that just make it a J122 with two wheels, kinda kills the whole "less crew" thing, which features prominently in their advertising / design brief.

 

Not really, since it's an entirely new design. Wider, more sail area, new keel., etc. Also, we don't say "one-two-two". So there's that.

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