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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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6 hours ago, ryley said:

Same reason a J111 is 42 in PHRFNE and 36 or 33 anywhere else - PHRF sucks ;)

J 111 base handicap on Lake Michigan is 39:o

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On 8/28/2017 at 6:03 PM, woodpecker said:

Yes, My point is that the 122 takes a extra 9 sec a mile hit in NE vs if they were racing in NB. 

Why would one boat be 9 sec a mile faster in one body of water vs another that is 50 + or - miles away?

Sorry, My fault I should have explained it clearer.

 

7 hours ago, ryley said:

Same reason a J111 is 42 in PHRFNE and 36 or 33 anywhere else - PHRF sucks ;)

Funny how the the 2 tops boat in the Buzzard Bay Regatta this year were a 111 and 120?  The two j-boats with the biggest PHRF-NE gift.

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Its so much easier to blame the committee, or person on the committee, than it is to just sail the boat you have to its full potential....

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17 hours ago, sailman said:

PHRF NE is a one man show?

Well at least the corruption is limited there:D

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Saw it in Bristol earlier today. Maybe leaving the jib up and furled all the time isn't the best for it.....

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Annapolis boat show over, anybody who saw the 121 care to share their thoughts of their impressions of the look, design and build. Thanks.

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5 hours ago, jlightning said:

Annapolis boat show over, anybody who saw the 121 care to share their thoughts of their impressions of the look, design and build. Thanks.

It looked very good to me. Similar to a J120, not surprisingly. It's got some nice performance features like water ballast and an inhauler to adjust the jib sheeting angles. Controls were well set up in the cockpit. The interior looked fine for cruising as well. I didn't sail on it, though.

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First post in 10 months!

The 121, has existed now for 2 months and is being put through its paces.  Easily the most sophisticated, powered-up J, yet even easier to do more with than previous J efforts. 

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On 9/7/2017 at 2:48 PM, sailman said:

PHRF NE is a one man show?

for all intents and purposes. they say there's a "committee" but so far it's mostly been Bump.

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On 9/7/2017 at 5:02 PM, Crash said:

Its so much easier to blame the committee, or person on the committee, than it is to just sail the boat you have to its full potential....

J111 base ratings:

PHRF-NE: 42

ECSA: 36

YRALIS: 30

PHRF ELI: 39

So when you're sailing YOUR boat to its full potential in PHRF-NE, but the other skipper doesn't need to sail his to ITS full potential... you should feel happy that you sailed the boat to its potential and still lost? cool!

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Those inhaulers are so clearly an after thought. That hardware is going to bang around and chip the hell out of everything. The real give away that they're an after the fact add on is the jib sheet rubbing the grap handle.

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3 hours ago, ryley said:

J111 base ratings:

PHRF-NE: 42

ECSA: 36

YRALIS: 30

PHRF ELI: 39

So when you're sailing YOUR boat to its full potential in PHRF-NE, but the other skipper doesn't need to sail his to ITS full potential... you should feel happy that you sailed the boat to its potential and still lost? cool!

I know you know this, but have to see what other boats a J-111 would be racing against rate in those regions.  If every other boat in the J-111's YRALIS fleet rate the same in both PHRF-NE and YRALIS , then you have a great case.  If those other boats are rated the same or slower in YRALIS then they are in PHRF-NE, then you have less of a point.

PHRF is far from perfect.  But I generally have found the PHRF ratings on the J/Boats site to be pretty honest and realistic, whether I was racing a J/Boat I owned (J-24, J/109) or racing against J/Boats on the other boats I've owned (Bene First 30E, Santana 30/30, S2 9.1).  It says a J/111 is a 42 and the control boat, a J-44 is a 27.

OBTW there is only a 3 sec difference for the J-44's rating between PHRF-NE (27) and YRALIS (30)...so there is a +15 sec difference between a J-44 and a J-111 in both J/Boats recommended PHRF ratings and in PHRF-NE, yet YRALIS believes them to be even?  So it seems to be that YRALIS is way overly penalizing the J-111, and not the other way around...but I'm sure you can come up with other boats that make a different case. 

I guess my takeaway after racing in PHRF for 30 years is that life is too short to get all wrapped around the axle about ratings....if I'm on my boat, sailing with my buds, then I'm happy...If I win, great.  But its not my goal in PHRF.  If I wanted to be more serious, I wouldn't race PHRF.

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15 hours ago, RATM said:

Those inhaulers are so clearly an after thought. That hardware is going to bang around and chip the hell out of everything. The real give away that they're an after the fact add on is the jib sheet rubbing the grap handle.

I dunno, to me it looks like just about every other inhauler setup on a boat with a proper cabin.  There are some geometry issues you just can't do anything about.

On the other hand, maybe they look like an afterthought because it seems that the sheets are being led wrong.  is it possible the jib sheet is going straight back from the inhauler to the fairlead, skipping the jib car?  Maybe that's what J Boats intended, but then why bother installing a jib track at all, save the money and weight and spec free floating leads or small transverse tracks.

The biggest thing I don't love is the way all the wiring exits the mast above deck between the vang attachment and the mast base blocks.  That's a very busy area. Also, speaking as someone who spends a bit of time at the nav station, when the hell are designers going to stop making the nav table a storage area?  I can't think of any good reason to do that.

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Crash,

I agree with your general feelings about PHRF and ratings and how wound up we should all get. But the fact is that every region is a crap shoot as to how boats in similar classes get hit. the 111 is definitely an outlier compared to most Jboats and how they're treated across different phrf areas, and there's some history to the 111 rating and how it got to 42 in the first place. That said, yes, it's mostly about the fun factor when you sail handicap :)

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The inhaulers seem to have the effect of many parallel jib tracks.

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It does get busy near the mast.

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2 hours ago, CrushDigital said:

I dunno, to me it looks like just about every other inhauler setup on a boat with a proper cabin.  There are some geometry issues you just can't do anything about.

On the other hand, maybe they look like an afterthought because it seems that the sheets are being led wrong.  is it possible the jib sheet is going straight back from the inhauler to the fairlead, skipping the jib car?  Maybe that's what J Boats intended, but then why bother installing a jib track at all, save the money and weight and spec free floating leads or small transverse tracks.

The biggest thing I don't love is the way all the wiring exits the mast above deck between the vang attachment and the mast base blocks.  That's a very busy area. Also, speaking as someone who spends a bit of time at the nav station, when the hell are designers going to stop making the nav table a storage area?  I can't think of any good reason to do that.

Trust me, that setup has "cracked Plexiglas" written all over it. The last photo shows the inboard inhauler line OVER the vang line. You used the phrase "proper cabin". Maybe there are some boats where these things just don't belong.

My problem with these things is that for the average sailor, they're just noise. Your inhauler angle means shit when you sail on a knock for 3 minutes

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I can't agree at all that an inhauler is "just noise". They have just as large an impact on your ability to go upwind as just about any other single adjustment on the boat.  You're kind of crapping all over the average sailor if you don't think the crew can remember one additional setting. That same argument could be applied to just about everything beyond the sheet and halyard.  How's it any different from adjusting a jib car?

I'm not disagreeing that the configuration isn't ideal but I also don't think it's so horrible either.  The inhauler arrangement is very similar to what every 111 uses, and while sure if you don't put a few wraps of tape around the ring you risk scratching the gelcoat, I've honestly never seen issues beyond that.  Like most new boats, as more get into the hands of racers, the most optimal ways to rig them will be developed.

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I thought the same things about the inhaulers, wiring and the midship deck in general. The inhaulers trapping the control lines to the deck really just looks like a hassle.  Trying to sneak a tack line out that’s pinned by an inhauler control line just seems frustrating. That stepped rail where the deck is glued on looks painful for hiking all day too. 

Time will tell. If the fleet builds to the sizes 

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17 hours ago, CrushDigital said:

I can't agree at all that an inhauler is "just noise". They have just as large an impact on your ability to go upwind as just about any other single adjustment on the boat.  

1

+1 I would argue that the infucker is essential on this type of boat, and the first thing people add on modern boat that doesn't have them.

The reason for the mix of "floating" and "track" on the J/121 is to give maximum flexibility for the sailmakers. We're seeing similar combos of track/soft on JPK/Figaro/Class 40s.

On damage, we've run unprotected rings on the J/111 for 12.000 nm, with just 2-3 small gelcoat dents.

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2 hours ago, Blur said:

+1 I would argue that the infucker is essential on this type of boat, and the first thing people add on modern boat that doesn't have them.

The reason for the mix of "floating" and "track" on the J/121 is to give maximum flexibility for the sailmakers. We're seeing similar combos of track/soft on JPK/Figaro/Class 40s.

On damage, we've run unprotected rings on the J/111 for 12.000 nm, with just 2-3 small gelcoat dents.

You have to admit that the J/111 set up is much simpler. The 111 has a break in the hand rail to allow for the hardware to move around. 

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2 hours ago, RATM said:

You have to admit that the J/111 set up is much simpler. The 111 has a break in the hand rail to allow for the hardware to move around. 

Yup. And the 121 will to (changed from #1)

The 111 is very well set up for the normal jibs, but when we run a J0 (code cut like a big jib, sheeted through the infucker) we're really pushing the limits. Ideally, we'd need 20 cm more track. This is addressed with the 121.

codesheeted-1.jpg

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On 10/16/2017 at 3:04 PM, RATM said:

Trust me, that setup has "cracked Plexiglas" written all over it. The last photo shows the inboard inhauler line OVER the vang line. You used the phrase "proper cabin". Maybe there are some boats where these things just don't belong.

My problem with these things is that for the average sailor, they're just noise. Your inhauler angle means shit when you sail on a knock for 3 minutes

You must be talking about the below-average sailor. Because anyone racing a boat with non overlapping headsails who ISN'T proficient at inhaulers will be shot out the back of the pack every time, without exception. Perfect tactics or not. 

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I believe the 121 is the first large Jboat with a deck stepped mast and the decision to go with that is interesting.  Never saw (or heard of) Ubi Maior gear but it looks like good stuff, especially the jib furler.

Lots to like about the 121, but there sure is a lot of string to pull, at least as rigged on the boat in the photos on Blur’s site, especially for a boat that is targeted toward the short-handed sailing segment.  Also, with 2 or 3 jibs, 2 or 3 spins on furlers, the solent (also on a furler), the sail inventory isn’t going to leave a lot of space belowdecks when not jammed in that space up in the bow.  But then again, I’m an old guy.  

All in all, if I were in the market for a new boat and had $500ish boat dollars, I’d give it a serious look.

 

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Well, its really meant as a short-handed race boat....so you still want/need to be able to tweek sail trim for max speed.  Might not do it as often, but are still doing it...Also, with short crew racing, only need to sleep 2 or 3, so plenty of room for all those sails.

If short handed cruising, you can ignore some of the strings (inhualers, etc) and only go with the heavier, small jib and one small asym.  So plenty of room then :)

 

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My interest would primarily be short handed cruising, and I agree 1 jib, 1 asym would be a good inventory for that purpose.  I would put the asym in a sock vs furler and it would stow nicely in that bow area, leaving the rest of the interior open.  With a sock you can hoist and drop right through the foredeck hatch (which we do on our current 36er, albeit no sprit).  I would simplify the jib sheeting to just traditional jib cars, although the ring system used on the Pogos is intriguing with lighter weight, lower cost and more adjustability, with the downside being more of a trip hazard on the side decks (I’m old so that matters to me).  The removable inner forestay and Solent is a neat idea, but I don’t think I would spec that.

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9 hours ago, J28 said:

My interest would primarily be short handed cruising, and I agree 1 jib, 1 asym would be a good inventory for that purpose.  I would put the asym in a sock vs furler and it would stow nicely in that bow area, leaving the rest of the interior open.  With a sock you can hoist and drop right through the foredeck hatch (which we do on our current 36er, albeit no sprit).  I would simplify the jib sheeting to just traditional jib cars, although the ring system used on the Pogos is intriguing with lighter weight, lower cost and more adjustability, with the downside being more of a trip hazard on the side decks (I’m old so that matters to me).  The removable inner forestay and Solent is a neat idea, but I don’t think I would spec that.

Anyone thinking of resale even down the road would be wise to not get to carried away on the custom spec front.  It's to early to tell if they'll ever have a OD.  I doubt it at the price point and specific target market, but what do I know. 

Cool boat nevertheless.  It will be good to hear some more first hand experience on performance and sailing characteristics. 

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Widget,

Having single handed my 120 for years, and having test sailed the 121, I believe the 121 will be easier and safer to single hand notwithstanding the additional water ballast controls.  The cockpit is spacious and ergonomic far beyond the 120.  In terms of performance, to say that it is faster, accelerates better and is more maneuverable than the 25 year old 120 misses the point.  It needs to be compared to other current designs.  I do not have experience in other current offerings, but expect the 121 to compare quite favorably in the short handed category.

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The J looks nice.  Plenty of boats look nice. 

 

For shorthanded work   Its cockpit is compromised with those steering wheels.

 

the French do it better.  The JPK10.80 for instance  .plenty fast and user friendly  

http://www.yachtingworld.com/yachts-and-gear/the-french-jpk-1080-ticks-all-the-boxes-for-a-successful-racing-keelboat-says-matthew-sheahan-64916

 

 

.a JPK just won the Middle Sea Race  

 

http://www.rolexmiddlesearace.com/index.cfm

 

 

 

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What's wrong with steering wheels on an offshore boat?  Tillers are great but for those times when your sailing is measured in days instead of hours, I'd much rather have a wheel.

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16 hours ago, CrushDigital said:

What's wrong with steering wheels on an offshore boat?  Tillers are great but for those times when your sailing is measured in days instead of hours, I'd much rather have a wheel.

To ease a sheet or adjust any sail controls  the helmsman needs three meter long arms.

 

to get a hot cup of coffee or a sparked up Marlboro  Light  from the companionway the helmsman will need four meter long arms . 

 

on a long tack a helmsman behind a wheel will be standing on one leg for many hours.  If your a single leg type a guy ts ok...ive got two legs, i prefer both to be locked onto  the cockpit floor 

a tiller alows the helmsman to hunker down low..clear of incoming flying fish and troublesome waves. 

 

the wheels force all sail controls forward...the aft end of the cockpit , behind the helmsman is wasted real estate

 

....i could go on and on about wheels on small boats but in the end the client  is always correct

 

its upto you 

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Would be nice to see a set up like the TP52/Pac 52's where the boat can switch between a tiller and wheels depending on the course and use.   Double-handed racing (tiller), around the cans (tiller), Offshore with a crew (wheel). 

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On 11/1/2017 at 11:10 AM, CrushDigital said:

What's wrong with steering wheels on an offshore boat?  Tillers are great but for those times when your sailing is measured in days instead of hours, I'd much rather have a wheel.

I'd much rather have an NKE autopilot (if I'm sailing solo or short-handed).

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13 minutes ago, J28 said:

I'd much rather have an NKE autopilot (if I'm sailing solo or short-handed).

+1

On the J/111 I feel the wheel lets me drive the boat harder/longer in downwind conditions when the autopilot struggles. Also, I get a better overview of waves and what's going on to windward which is much harder with a tiller on ex Class 40. And with a crew, people tend to get in the way...

I can see the benefits of both setups, with weight as an important factor for a tiller, but for a multi-purpose boat as the J/121 I think twin wheels makes sense and is the "conservative" option ;-)

 

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44 minutes ago, J28 said:

I'd much rather have an NKE autopilot (if I'm sailing solo or short-handed).

The J will eat autopliots...it doesnt matter what brand.   Boats  with a large , single , rudder always overpower autopilots.

this is one of the main reasons shorthanders go with  twin rudder configuations..to unload the auto and to track straight 

 

 

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I

7 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

The J will eat autopliots...it doesnt matter what brand.   Boats  with a large , single , rudder always overpower autopilots.

this is one of the main reasons shorthanders go with  twin rudder configuations..to unload the auto and to track straight 

 

 

Interesting.  I'll have to let the NKE on my J/120 know this.  So far, it's only steered about 10,000nm offshore (Trans Atlantic, CA to Hawaii to WA).

Having raced double-handed to Hawaii on the J/120 with a wheel and double-handed on a smaller boat with a tiller, I'll take the wheel (and autopilot) for offshore racing.  It took 6 months for my shoulder to recover from 12 hours of driving for 11 days with a tiller and I couldn't sit down by the last day thanks to boat butt.  The ride on the 120 was a cruise by comparison.  

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Jboats almost never miss the mark, and they've done a great job with the 121.  However, the twin wheels vs. tiller debates illustrates the tradeoffs that have to made in a dual, or even triple-purpose boat.  I wonder if some buyers would opt for a tiller if it were offered?

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1 hour ago, J28 said:

Jboats almost never miss the mark, and they've done a great job with the 121.  However, the twin wheels vs. tiller debates illustrates the tradeoffs that have to made in a dual, or even triple-purpose boat.  I wonder if some buyers would opt for a tiller if it were offered?

It shows how impossible this business can be.

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14 hours ago, slug zitski said:

The J will eat autopliots...it doesnt matter what brand.   Boats  with a large , single , rudder always overpower autopilots.

this is one of the main reasons shorthanders go with  twin rudder configuations..to unload the auto and to track straight 

7

I'm not sure where this experience come from since there are many boats that do extremely well shorthanded with single rudder. Your statement is true for wide designs like Figaro 2, JPK or Pogo, but not for this kind of "narrower" design.

I'm able to run the J/111 with very little effort from my NKE. Upwind is never any issue as the helm never loads up as the boat heels. Downwind, the boats naturally lack form stability vs an open-style-design, so there's no point in pushing it. NKE ok 90% of the time downwind vs 95% on wider, twin-rudder boats. 

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