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On 5/14/2018 at 5:44 AM, CordRipper said:

Which boat are you looking at? Eagle is 1.129 and I believe Apollo is slightly higher. If Jackhammer, they have IRC optimized by removing the bulb from the keel and removing the water ballast (along with other mods) so not really a 121 anymore.

God why..?

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Rock Lobster are racing in the rorc offshore series so must be gambling on a flat keel, the 121 is beamier than normal Js and carries it's beam further aft so I think it will just about hold up with the slight loss of stability. Having reduced drag from the flat keel should make it slipperier downwind 

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24 minutes ago, ASP said:

Have you raced under the -6 rating? There's no way the 121 is faster than a 125..

 

 

First race this weekend under PHRF-LIS. Agreed, under PHRF-LIS 125s are also rated -6. Tough to see that we should be racing boat for boat with the 125s but honestly, no way of knowing for sure until we have a few races under our belt

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2 minutes ago, CordRipper said:

First race this weekend under PHRF-LIS. Agreed, under PHRF-LIS 125s are also rated -6. Tough to see that we should be racing boat for boat with the 125s but honestly, no way of knowing for sure until we have a few races under our belt

Have you developed a set of polars yet? Be happy to compare vs my numbers for the 125. Send me a PM. 

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1 hour ago, ASP said:

Have you developed a set of polars yet? Be happy to compare vs my numbers for the 125. Send me a PM. 

correction, base rating is -6, we're adjusted to -3. I'll PM you ASP

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The 125 I race on in San Francisco rates -18. We give a turboed schock 40 6 seconds. 

Orr treats us better. 

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6 hours ago, IMR said:

The 125 I race on in San Francisco rates -18. We give a turboed schock 40 6 seconds. 

Orr treats us better. 

Brutal, -3 in PHRFNW. 

Melges 32 and J133 both at 24. J122 at 42.

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12 hours ago, ASP said:

Brutal, -3 in PHRFNW. 

Melges 32 and J133 both at 24. J122 at 42.

J/125 -12

J/125 with code 0 that has too small a mid girth -18 

Melges 32 27

J/44   21

 

It will be interesting to see what a J 121 will get rated at in SF.  Is there an ORR rating for the 121 in the N2B race? 

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The J121 is a cool boat but it looks like it is a little slow in light air. Now that there have been a few boats out racing what are everyone's impressions of the boat?

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Phrf 30 on random leg course with no Real running seems about accurate. This was without water ballast

not sure how the shorthanded sailors feel but for full crew racing the boat is proving to be a dog.  At least one is modified and another has already been donated.  750k was the number I was told for the full kitted out one that one class in bermuda race. 

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3 hours ago, crashtestdummy said:

Phrf 30 on random leg course with no Real running seems about accurate. This was without water ballast

not sure how the shorthanded sailors feel but for full crew racing the boat is proving to be a dog.  At least one is modified and another has already been donated.  750k was the number I was told for the full kitted out one that one class in bermuda race. 

750k wow!! I bet they could crank out 125’s for that

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13 hours ago, crashtestdummy said:

Phrf 30 on random leg course with no Real running seems about accurate. This was without water ballast

not sure how the shorthanded sailors feel but for full crew racing the boat is proving to be a dog.  At least one is modified and another has already been donated.  750k was the number I was told for the full kitted out one that one class in bermuda race. 

750k sounds like a lot, do you know what was included in that figure? Apollo is meticulously cared for and has made some rigging modifications and has a full sail package. But i'd be very surprised if they spent that much to get the boat up and running, maybe if you include annual program expenses like maintenance, travel, outfitting for Bermuda...etc. Their program travels all over the place so boat transport and dockage may bring it to that but those shouldn't really count toward the total cost of the boat. One could make a 121 competitive for much less

PHRF 30 w/out wb, assuming you're talking about the Narragansett rating, 23 w/ wb. These seem to be fair ratings (though I'm biased). In LIS we race with wb and rate -3 with spinnaker. LIS PHRF committee doesn't give a non-wb rating. Very tough to race to this rating in when the wind is windward/leeward courses. If there is any sort of reaching, we can be competitive if there is enough wind. Hard to find a point where the boat is overpowered which makes sense with the design brief...offshore, short-crew racer. On weeknights racing without spinnakers, we rate 9 and find it very difficult to be competitive without the spinnakers, tends to be very light wind. Having said all this...we love the boat because regardless of ratings, it is fast and a blast to sail!

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15 hours ago, crashtestdummy said:

Phrf 30 on random leg course with no Real running seems about accurate. This was without water ballast

not sure how the shorthanded sailors feel but for full crew racing the boat is proving to be a dog.  At least one is modified and another has already been donated.  750k was the number I was told for the full kitted out one that one class in bermuda race. 

Sad to hear.  Serious question:  does the boat not perform to it's polars or do the polars suggest the boat is a dog?  Or are we talking PHRF?  Can you share the modifications that were made?

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The UK boat has yet to prove itself and was modified with a straight lead fin keel without bulb for irc racing. Everything points to it being a competitive boat personally i’m still waiting...hopefully a proven team can get their hands on one. A mate of mine is doing the Transpac on one this year so i’m eager to hear what he has to say

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Come on guys, read the design brief!  The boat is designed/optimized for offshore, short-handed distance racing, not W/L short course sausage fests.  So, yeah its kinda a PHRF issue, but only in the sense that PHRF isn't really able to rate boats optimized for one environment well across all environments.  You see it with sport boats all the time. 

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The boat is fast and fun so im not surprised owners are looking to sail it more in shorter distance races where there might not be enough race boats for an IRC fleet. I know on LIS we have bunch of 30 to 50 NM day races that are popular for PHRF 

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6 hours ago, CordRipper said:

750k sounds like a lot, do you know what was included in that figure? Apollo is meticulously cared for and has made some rigging modifications and has a full sail package. But i'd be very surprised if they spent that much to get the boat up and running, maybe if you include annual program expenses like maintenance, travel, outfitting for Bermuda...etc. Their program travels all over the place so boat transport and dockage may bring it to that but those shouldn't really count toward the total cost of the boat. One could make a 121 competitive for much less

PHRF 30 w/out wb, assuming you're talking about the Narragansett rating, 23 w/ wb. These seem to be fair ratings (though I'm biased). In LIS we race with wb and rate -3 with spinnaker. LIS PHRF committee doesn't give a non-wb rating. Very tough to race to this rating in when the wind is windward/leeward courses. If there is any sort of reaching, we can be competitive if there is enough wind. Hard to find a point where the boat is overpowered which makes sense with the design brief...offshore, short-crew racer. On weeknights racing without spinnakers, we rate 9 and find it very difficult to be competitive without the spinnakers, tends to be very light wind. Having said all this...we love the boat because regardless of ratings, it is fast and a blast to sail!

The 121 at 30 seems like a really fair number. Anything in the single digits seems a bit much...wow. The boats that have been racing in NB have been great and well sorted. Been fun to race against them. I just can’t wrap my head around the price point. Damn...

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4 minutes ago, Vin said:

The 121 at 30 seems like a really fair number. Anything in the single digits seems a bit much...wow. The boats that have been racing in NB have been great and well sorted. Been fun to race against them. I just can’t wrap my head around the price point. Damn...

Seconding Vin's comments on the NB rating and great to have them out on the bay.  ... although you do well with the Summit 35, you know you want to get back into a J/Boat for the next Divided Sky!

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Just want to reiterate because I think the message got lost in my last post, this is a fast and fun boat to sail. Very please with it after our 1st season

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Anyone know what the deal was with the 121 that was at the Newport Boat Show last year. I had heard that it was heavily IRC optimized (whatever that means) and it pretty much blew the doors off all comers at its only local appearance. From what I understand it was headed to Japan. Interested to know how different the boats can be set up.

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On 1/8/2019 at 5:58 AM, CordRipper said:

750k sounds like a lot, do you know what was included in that figure? Apollo is meticulously cared for and has made some rigging modifications and has a full sail package. But i'd be very surprised if they spent that much to get the boat up and running, maybe if you include annual program expenses like maintenance, travel, outfitting for Bermuda...etc. Their program travels all over the place so boat transport and dockage may bring it to that but those shouldn't really count toward the total cost of the boat. One could make a 121 competitive for much less

PHRF 30 w/out wb, assuming you're talking about the Narragansett rating, 23 w/ wb. These seem to be fair ratings (though I'm biased). In LIS we race with wb and rate -3 with spinnaker. LIS PHRF committee doesn't give a non-wb rating. Very tough to race to this rating in when the wind is windward/leeward courses. If there is any sort of reaching, we can be competitive if there is enough wind. Hard to find a point where the boat is overpowered which makes sense with the design brief...offshore, short-crew racer. On weeknights racing without spinnakers, we rate 9 and find it very difficult to be competitive without the spinnakers, tends to be very light wind. Having said all this...we love the boat because regardless of ratings, it is fast and a blast to sail!

-3 ouch. Same as the 125 up here in the PNW. Absolutely no way the 121 is beating a 125, on any point of sail in any amount of breeze. 

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17 hours ago, Vin said:

Anyone know what the deal was with the 121 that was at the Newport Boat Show last year. I had heard that it was heavily IRC optimized (whatever that means) and it pretty much blew the doors off all comers at its only local appearance. From what I understand it was headed to Japan. Interested to know how different the boats can be set up.

Not sure about that boat specifically but since there is no one design rule/class, the boats have drifted quite a bit from each other due to after market modifications, different sail plans by different makers, and the IRC optimizations (generally changing the keel to a fin and adding a small fixed prod to the bow for smaller A-sails) that the boats going to Europe went through. In May, there is another J121 Spring Tune Up put on by JBoats in Newport. I hear they're expecting 5-7 boats so should be very interesting to see everyone lined up.

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7 hours ago, ASP said:

-3 ouch. Same as the 125 up here in the PNW. Absolutely no way the 121 is beating a 125, on any point of sail in any amount of breeze. 

Same here and agreed that we would be hard pressed to beat a 125 in most conditions boat for boat. I'd be really interested though to line up with one in 20kts+ at different points of sail with full water ballast. I would guess that we could hold our own above a beam reach but that anything below a beam reach the 125 would pull away. On the Bermuda race last year, that is the angle that Apollo won on in the last 24 hours when the wind kicked up to 15-20kts, though of course the bigger boats in our class up front only saw 10-15kts.

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On 1/8/2019 at 4:02 PM, WHK said:

Seconding Vin's comments on the NB rating and great to have them out on the bay.  ... although you do well with the Summit 35, you know you want to get back into a J/Boat for the next Divided Sky!

BS. A J/122 on NB rates 36 and you will never be able to convince me that J/Boats was only able to make a 40 footer 6 s/m faster after a decade of hull design, appendage development, mast upgrades, sail development, and overall sailboat refinement. The 121 deserves to be at 24 without water ballast and that's the truth. 

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ORC rates a J/121 only 16 secs/mile faster than a J/120 (with a smallish headsail) and 5 secs/mile faster than a J/111.  I think it would be more like 12 seconds faster than a J/120 with class sized sails.  Doesn't sound like much given the 20+ year design difference and the cost difference.  

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Roleur,

Folks made this same argument when the J/109 came out.  It wasn't really any faster than the 20 year older J-35...

The 121 is only (according to J/Boat's specs) 1000lbs lighter than a 120 , and only has 29 sqft more sail area.  So its only 7% lighter and has 4% more sail area.  Plus 120 can carry larger overlapping headsails.  121 likely also has a longer immersed waterline while sailing, but again, not by a whole lot.  So yes, it should be faster, but not by leaps and bounds.  Plus, I don't think it was intended to be that much faster.  It was intended to be able to be as fast (give or take) with 5 less guys on the rail...

Also, I'd bet that a new build J/120 would actually cost a little more than a new build J/121, as it has a nicer interior, and that adds cost and labor...

Plus its a shiny new boat, so you don't have age-related maintenance issues to deal with for the first 5 or 10 years... (by which time, many will have been sold in the natural order of things)...

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the 120.  but it all depends on what you goals and objectives are...

Crash

 

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Back in the beginning of this thread I was the first person to defend the purpose of the J/121 for short-handed racing.  That said, the comparison made at the time were boats much faster than a J/120.  

My main concern now is the weight.  Only 1000 pounds lighter than a J/120 sounds like an underachievement after 20 years.  And importantly, while what interior there is in a J/121 may be nicer, there is way more interior in a J/120, both in terms of weight and comfort.

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I meant to say that the 120 had a nicer interior, not the 121.  Obviously, my sentence structure wasn't particularly great...

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Raced against a few now, seems they are slightly slow upwind, but takeoff downhill. The ratings seems quite favorable thus far

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On 1/11/2019 at 5:17 PM, Roleur said:

Back in the beginning of this thread I was the first person to defend the purpose of the J/121 for short-handed racing.  That said, the comparison made at the time were boats much faster than a J/120.  

My main concern now is the weight.  Only 1000 pounds lighter than a J/120 sounds like an underachievement after 20 years.  And importantly, while what interior there is in a J/121 may be nicer, there is way more interior in a J/120, both in terms of weight and comfort.

1000 pounds lighter, but how is the ballast share? might see an improvement there?

 

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53 minutes ago, JMOD said:

1000 pounds lighter, but how is the ballast share? might see an improvement there?

 

J/120   6000 lbs ballast    7.00 foot draft    12.00 foot beam

J/121   4850 lbs ballast    7.75 foot draft    12.33 foot beam

 

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8 hours ago, slap said:

J/120   6000 lbs ballast    7.00 foot draft    12.00 foot beam

J/121   4850 lbs ballast    7.75 foot draft    12.33 foot beam

 

J/125 displacement 8300, ballast 4600, draft 7.9 foot, beam 10.6 feet 

 

I think they could have done a lot better with the 121

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So the 1000 pound difference is the brochure weight.  I wonder how that will play in the real world.  All the 120's that I've seen numbers for are roughly 1,500 pounds over the brochure weight.  Is the 121 also 1,500 pounds over?  I can't wrap my head around the 121 hull being heavier than the 120 hull.  

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Are you sure the 121 is heavier than the 120 ?

In the ORC database there is one 121 registered at 6356 kg.

The 120's in the ORC database are somewhere between 6500 - 7100 kg.

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17 hours ago, jackolantern said:

But you can’t cruise a J/125 with your wife!!! /S

Bingo...the 125 looks like a bat outta hell and a blast to sail but do you need full 8-10 person crew? With the 121, you don't get the performance of the 125 in all conditions or points of sail but as the design brief states, you can sail it with 4-6 people rather than a full 8-10.

And as jackolantern points out, you can cruise the 121 with the wife....a big factor for many boat owners

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10 hours ago, ZeeZee said:

Are you sure the 121 is heavier than the 120 ?

In the ORC database there is one 121 registered at 6356 kg.

The 120's in the ORC database are somewhere between 6500 - 7100 kg.

Hull weight, not total displacement.  J/120 is heavier overall, but has a 1,150 lb heavier keel, making the hull of the 121 heavier, apparently.

I do wonder about that ORC weight for the J/121.  That's Jackhammer.  Isn't that the boat that is IRC optimized without a bulb keel.  

I know Riva will be getting an ORC rating soon.  Curious to see their actual weight and rating.  

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#10 (standard config w bulb) came in at <6.100 kg in ORC config (6.200 w main, jib, A2 + some other stuff in "local measurement mode").

Having sailed the 88, 111 & 121, I would have preferred a lighter boat (a 121 w the same feel as the 88 :D ) but as a dual purpose boat for "bucket list events", I think it's spot on.

Rating is decent and you'd be able to race it at 100% with your friends. Even if there are some upwind legs. Off course a J/125 is more fun for a Transpac, but the J/121 will (for most people) be the better boat for a Fastnet or a round trip to Bermuda.

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How many 121s are already for sale? Or already onto their second owners? 

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On 1/20/2019 at 4:11 PM, jackolantern said:

But you can’t cruise a J/125 with your wife!!! /S

Why not?

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10 hours ago, Christian said:

Why not?

Because Jboats didn't put throw pillows and tea lights out down below when they took their marketing photos of the 125

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1 hour ago, jackolantern said:

Because Jboats didn't put throw pillows and tea lights out down below when they took their marketing photos of the 125

You need a new wife.................................just sayin'

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Well, sorry you do not like the graphic yes it can be removed with out an issue.. Yes, when you live in the deep south it is nice to have an AC, which is about 50lbs.

I have seen the guide and we actually starting moving crew and gear forward prior to the guide coming out. Just keep an eye on the knuckle in all other conditions. We opted to keep the life raft in the stern for ease of deployment during the Isla Mujeres race. 

 

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Only $430k (used) to $500k+ for a non-carbon 12k+ pound 40'er, gulp.    

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23 hours ago, squiby said:

Think that ugly dragon graphic will come off easily? And Aircon?!?

I’ve seen the North Sails tuning guide for the 121. It needs crew weight to be ahead of the shrouds in light airs. I know one of the boats in the 2018 Bermuda Race removed their life raft from the back of the cockpit and mounted it just aft of the companionway to shift more weight forward. Do you think J/Boats got the weight balance wrong?

https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/resources/j-121-speed-guide

Very similar to an 88 in terms of weight balancing so no, i don't think they got the weight balancing wrong. It's just something you have to be mindful of. After the spring tune up, where those tuning guide pics were taken, we started sailing upwind with 2-3 in front of the shrouds.

 

17 hours ago, overserved said:

Well, sorry you do not like the graphic yes it can be removed with out an issue.. Yes, when you live in the deep south it is nice to have an AC, which is about 50lbs.

I have seen the guide and we actually starting moving crew and gear forward prior to the guide coming out. Just keep an eye on the knuckle in all other conditions. We opted to keep the life raft in the stern for ease of deployment during the Isla Mujeres race. 

 

Keeping an eye on the knuckle is key, as with most boats

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49 minutes ago, CordRipper said:

Very similar to an 88 in terms of weight balancing so no, i don't think they got the weight balancing wrong. It's just something you have to be mindful of. After the spring tune up, where those tuning guide pics were taken, we started sailing upwind with 2-3 in front of the shrouds.

Keeping an eye on the knuckle is key, as with most boats

2

Same with the J/111 :D Only helmsman in the cockpit (as far forward as possible) in the light stuff...

hollenderseilasen17-16.jpg

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5 hours ago, CordRipper said:

Very similar to an 88 in terms of weight balancing so no, i don't think they got the weight balancing wrong. It's just something you have to be mindful of. After the spring tune up, where those tuning guide pics were taken, we started sailing upwind with 2-3 in front of the shrouds.

 

Keeping an eye on the knuckle is key, as with most boats

More importantly, why are you sailing with enough people so as to have 2-3 in front of the shrouds on a boat that was designed for shorthanded (max 5) sailing??

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Shifting weight on a race boat is nothing new. Why act like it is?

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1 hour ago, jackolantern said:

More importantly, why are you sailing with enough people so as to have 2-3 in front of the shrouds on a boat that was designed for shorthanded (max 5) sailing??

Boats had various crew aboard that may sail different events, there was also a future owner from Japan in attendance with one of his crew.

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6 hours ago, JMOD said:

Shifting weight on a race boat is nothing new. Why act like it is?

Because it’s fun to take on Stu and the JBoats marketing team. If they were serious about promoting the short handed coastal racing class they’d write a stricter class rule. Instead, one team shows up at an event with 7 guys on the rail and the whole idea goes to bupkis. It’s doing nothing for participation besides lifting 600k+ from owners wallets and adding to the 40 footer fully crewed arms race 

The above referenced Japanese boat was so highly specced and prepped that it isn’t a J121 any more.

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If you want to race short handed in any sort of breeze, I would put ALL chutes on a furling unit. There is NO way you can take down a true running chute in a blow with 5 people on the boat. Let along trying to gybe one. I'd like to the the J marketing team do take on the 121 in 18 knts with 5 people. 

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22 minutes ago, overserved said:

If you want to race short handed in any sort of breeze, I would put ALL chutes on a furling unit. There is NO way you can take down a true running chute in a blow with 5 people on the boat. Let along trying to gybe one. I'd like to the the J marketing team do take on the 121 in 18 knts with 5 people. 

letterbox drop is available

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59 minutes ago, overserved said:

If you want to race short handed in any sort of breeze, I would put ALL chutes on a furling unit. There is NO way you can take down a true running chute in a blow with 5 people on the boat. Let along trying to gybe one. I'd like to the the J marketing team do take on the 121 in 18 knts with 5 people. 

Of course you know there is a serious abundance of evidence to indicate this isn't true.  We regularly race our J/120 with 2-4 people, without a furler or sock for kites, and often do quite well.  Our kite is about the same size as the 121.  Then there is the number of singlehanded and doublehanded races similar boats have done to places like Hawaii and Bermuda.  No furlers for kites there either.  It only takes 4 people, at most, to gybe well, a boat like this.  

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You might have the close to the same size me as the OD suggested square footage, but we find that it's very undersized. So we have a true running kite with big shoulders on the 121.

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1 hour ago, overserved said:

You might have the close to the same size me as the OD suggested square footage, but we find that it's very undersized. So we have a true running kite with big shoulders on the 121.

How big?  J/120 kites are in the 160-165 sqm range. 

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7 hours ago, overserved said:

If you want to race short handed in any sort of breeze, I would put ALL chutes on a furling unit. There is NO way you can take down a true running chute in a blow with 5 people on the boat. Let along trying to gybe one. I'd like to the the J marketing team do take on the 121 in 18 knts with 5 people. 

5 people would be easy... sounds like you guys need to spend more time practicing and less time on SA. 

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15 hours ago, overserved said:

If you want to race short handed in any sort of breeze, I would put ALL chutes on a furling unit. There is NO way you can take down a true running chute in a blow with 5 people on the boat. Let along trying to gybe one. I'd like to the the J marketing team do take on the 121 in 18 knts with 5 people. 

J/125's are raced with 5 people offshore pretty regularly, no?

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15 hours ago, overserved said:

If you want to race short handed in any sort of breeze, I would put ALL chutes on a furling unit. There is NO way you can take down a true running chute in a blow with 5 people on the boat. Let along trying to gybe one. I'd like to the the J marketing team do take on the 121 in 18 knts with 5 people. 

Socks are a pretty effective solution for shorthanded use of running kites as well. I've done 1.5nm windward/leeward racing on a 48 footer with 3 people and a 155sqm A2 in a sock and it was totally manageable. 

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J/125 no prob 5 for a douse (whatever the wind pressure), letterbox drop.  I can’t the J/121 being more difficult by any measure.  We’ve done A5 drops blowing over 25 no prob w offshore crew.  The marketing team has nothing to worry about....just a couple of techniques to employ is all.

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On 4/2/2019 at 12:53 AM, overserved said:

If you want to race short handed in any sort of breeze, I would put ALL chutes on a furling unit. There is NO way you can take down a true running chute in a blow with 5 people on the boat. Let along trying to gybe one. I'd like to the the J marketing team do take on the 121 in 18 knts with 5 people. 

I regularly take down my "oversized"155 m2 A2 solo in 20 knots on the J/111 (letterbox) and doublehanded we have no issues managing the smaller kite in 25-30 knots. Solo I keep the A5 in a sock, as archipelago racing often lacks runway for a proper downwind takedown.

We also raced a carbon Baltic 50 doublehanded w +180 m2 kite. Also letterbox under autopilot.

I would happily doublehand the J/121 with the kites in the standard bags, and see no difference between being 4 or 10 on deck for any maneuver.

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Looks like Riva just won Oregon Offshore, overall, in their first offshore race.  Will be interesting to see how they go in the 9 leg Van Isle 360 next month.  

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On 5/15/2018 at 4:52 PM, ASP said:

Have you developed a set of polars yet? Be happy to compare vs my numbers for the 125. Send me a PM. 

I'm interested in seeing the comparison. Can you share?

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16 hours ago, mcg00 said:

I'm interested in seeing the comparison. Can you share?

There's a number of ORC polars on J/121 for comparison.

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On 4/3/2019 at 6:39 AM, Blur said:

I regularly take down my "oversized"155 m2 A2 solo in 20 knots on the J/111 (letterbox)

i'd be interested in a description of your technique - specifically the sequence.., when do you release the tack line?.., and do you have a long tack line rigged so that the tack of the sail reaches the companionway?

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4 hours ago, us7070 said:

i'd be interested in a description of your technique - specifically the sequence.., when do you release the tack line?.., and do you have a long tack line rigged so that the tack of the sail reaches the companionway?

Blur has a number of videos up on youtube where he executes this maneuver, usually shorthanded.

Blur YouTube Channel




For those following the J/121 ratings discussion, there will be a chance to see how at least one J/121 sails to it's rating against 4 J/111's and a pair of Turbo 1D35's on 7/20 in the BYC Mack
Class D 2019 BYC Mack

I would say it's safe to assume that with that rating and 10 crew this J/121 isn't using water ballast.

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6 hours ago, us7070 said:

i'd be interested in a description of your technique - specifically the sequence.., when do you release the tack line?.., and do you have a long tack line rigged so that the tack of the sail reaches the companionway?

The super safe letterbox version:

https://youtu.be/cKIAL8lyoWY?t=793

+ another one:

 

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I frequently sail my J/111 solo and with winds over 15 knots the letterbox is absolutely the safest way to douse the gennaker. Under 15 knots there are other alternatives like a luff drop into the forward hatch or just douce it under the boom into the companionway.

A few things I do for the letterbox drop:

- You can walk the lazy sheet around the headstay and then in between the foot of the mainsail and the boom. Then use this lazy sheet to pull the gennaker towards you until you can grab the foot. I don't prefer this method as first of all it is less safe to walk the sheet around when it is windy and second: you need to re-rig the lazy sheet after the gennaker is douced.   Instead I use a spare rope that I fix with a knot in the companionway,  then run this rope between boom and mainsail,  around the active gennaker sheet and then back between boom and mainsail to the companionway.  Once the tackline is blown, I use this rope to pull the 'active' gennaker sheet towatrds the letterbox until I can grab the foot of the gennaker.  No need to re-rig the lazy sheet afterwards and much safer (imho).

- Once I have rigged the spare rope as described above,  I stream the tackline and the gennaker halyard in the water behind the boat. This not only ensures the lines don't get tangled, but is also creates just the amount of friction for a controlled douce.   In the end of the halyard is afigur eof 8 knot.  The tackline does not contain an end knot as the last thing you want is the tack to get stuck and the foot of the gennaker to catch water.

- Once the above is done, I drive down to TWA 165 on the autopilot.

- Blow the tackline completely by opening the jammer.   As the tackline is streaming in the water the gennaker will fly to leeward in a very controlled way.

- Pull the spare rope between mainsail and boom until you can grab the foot of the gennaker.  Then start collecting the entire foot. (most of the time I do this sitting on the rood just in fron of the companionway)

- Open the jammer of the gennaker halyard. With the halyard streaming n the water with a figure 8 knot at the end there is just the right amount of friction to now start pulling the gennaker down is a very controlled manner.

- Once the gennaker is safe down in the companionway you can start removng the sheets, halyard and tackline and re-pack the gennaker in its bag for the next hoist.

 

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The other option you have if you are in a close fleet situation (and don't want 40' of line out the back) is to flake the halyard and stand on it whilst pulling the kite in through the 'box.

You can control the speed at which the kite comes down by lifting and dropping your foot.

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17 hours ago, Blur said:

The super safe letterbox version:

https://youtu.be/cKIAL8lyoWY?t=793

so it looks like after the lazy sheet is set up through the boom.., the first thing you do is release the tack line - and you release it all at once.

then after gathering the foot.., you release the halyard

i am not surprised that you trail the halyard in the water.., but it seems as though you have learned that it helps to do the same with the tack line.

and the tack line is long enough to reach the companionway

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In my case the tackline is about twice the length of the boat.   Streaming it in the water not only prevents it from tangling itself,  but also makes the release of the tackline go very smooth even if the gennaker is under full pressure.

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Another technique for dousing a spinnaker shorthanded that I've used on my columbia 32 in up to 20 knots is to rig a 'lazy tack.' it's just a long piece of line that is attached to the tack. It runs under the sheets so it doesn't affect gybes. I've recently started running the lazy tack through the forward hatch and back to the companionway. the technique is to go deep, blow off the sheet which collapses the chute. Open the pole and haul on the lazy tack until the pole is in, then open the tack and start working the halyard. It works very well and is a bit less work to unfuck than a letterbox. Of course my kite is only 90m2 ;)

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1 hour ago, ryley said:

Another technique for dousing a spinnaker shorthanded that I've used on my columbia 32 in up to 20 knots is to rig a 'lazy tack.' it's just a long piece of line that is attached to the tack. It runs under the sheets so it doesn't affect gybes. I've recently started running the lazy tack through the forward hatch and back to the companionway. the technique is to go deep, blow off the sheet which collapses the chute. Open the pole and haul on the lazy tack until the pole is in, then open the tack and start working the halyard. It works very well and is a bit less work to unfuck than a letterbox. Of course my kite is only 90m2 ;)

We use that on the J120 in 20kts plus.  Its in the arsenal of the top J109 team as well
 

 

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8 hours ago, bloodshot said:

We use that on the J120 in 20kts plus.  Its in the arsenal of the top J109 team as well

1

Can't see why that would be faster/better than a normal takedown w full crew? Chance of twisting the chute is greater as the tack comes aft first and needs to be sorted. Also, another line to get stuck when prefeeding for the set. 

I can see the benefits solo for a companionway drop, but less control of the sail and marginally less chaos afterward. Plus needs to be re-routed in 50% of the cases. 

Pretty much the same issues I have with the tack trip line. Smart - but sometimes less is more :)

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16 hours ago, Blur said:

Can't see why that would be faster/better than a normal takedown w full crew? Chance of twisting the chute is greater as the tack comes aft first and needs to be sorted. Also, another line to get stuck when prefeeding for the set. 

I can see the benefits solo for a companionway drop, but less control of the sail and marginally less chaos afterward. Plus needs to be re-routed in 50% of the cases. 

Pretty much the same issues I have with the tack trip line. Smart - but sometimes less is more :)

It's not faster or better than a normal takedown with a full crew. It is an essential tool on my boat for short-handing. also, it depends on what you consider a normal takedown. a stretch and blow in 25? probably not. a letterbox? sure, but you've got a lot more to unfuck after one of those than on a lazy tack, and I find that my sheets aren't long enough so I have to rerun everything when it comes down. I almost never have to re-route anything after using a lazy tack drop. You actually have a lot of control of the sail since it is 100% depowered when the sheet is released. I can lazy-tack drop the spin into the forward hatch while standing in the companionway with sheet, tack, and halyard at my fingertips.

you are right though that it takes a while to figure out how to run the lazy tack so it doesn't interfere with other lines, but by the 3rd time you do it you've got it pretty clear. we only use this as a shorthanded technique on my boat.

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We used to do this alot on our 109...its great on a breezy day random leg course where you are coming to the mark on a tight reach and turning down would put you at a tactical disadvantage.  Its great fully crewed if that crew is not as experienced.  BITD, when my 13 year old was bow, and my 8 year old was the squirrel, this was a conservative way to make sure that we didn't shrimp the 120 sq mtr chute.  While it's a great tool to have in the toolbox, its not the tool for 1nm windward leewards in 12 kts of breeze.  There are times when a letterbox is better.  There are times when a stretch and blow are better.  Or a mexican.  But, I think, there are times when this is hard to beat...

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On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 8:53 PM, bloodshot said:

We use that on the J120 in 20kts plus.  Its in the arsenal of the top J109 team as well
 

 

90% of the time that's how we drop on our J120. If done right it comes down pretty quick.

 

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11 hours ago, Stu McCrea said:

90% of the time that's how we drop on our J120. If done right it comes down pretty quick.

 

This video is useless from behind the boat.

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This extra tack line douse seems sort of similar to what the TP52s are doing these days, except that they have a spring loaded winding mechanism to help bring down the kite. If they are continuing to develop it, it seems like it's probably an effective solution.

Are there any issues/class rule violations with rigging extra lines like in the video, to the spinnaker tack in one design, e.g. J105 etc.

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Darkwood, the J/121 which is doing the RORC offshore season and won the Channel race looks like it has retired from Fastnet, not registered as such yet but its going the wrong way slowly.

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They're doing over 9 kts in the right direction for retirement. They haven't notified RORC of retirement yet (likely no SSB, out of mobile range and poss. opted not to relay VHF)  so I assume they've suffered a mechanical failure that's not compromising safety. 

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Cant be too serious if they are going to Plymouth at that speed. Stretchy steering cables on a new boat? Wouldn't be the first time.

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