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On 5/14/2018 at 5:44 AM, CordRipper said:

Which boat are you looking at? Eagle is 1.129 and I believe Apollo is slightly higher. If Jackhammer, they have IRC optimized by removing the bulb from the keel and removing the water ballast (along with other mods) so not really a 121 anymore.

God why..?

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Rock Lobster are racing in the rorc offshore series so must be gambling on a flat keel, the 121 is beamier than normal Js and carries it's beam further aft so I think it will just about hold up with the slight loss of stability. Having reduced drag from the flat keel should make it slipperier downwind 

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24 minutes ago, ASP said:

Have you raced under the -6 rating? There's no way the 121 is faster than a 125..

 

 

First race this weekend under PHRF-LIS. Agreed, under PHRF-LIS 125s are also rated -6. Tough to see that we should be racing boat for boat with the 125s but honestly, no way of knowing for sure until we have a few races under our belt

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2 minutes ago, CordRipper said:

First race this weekend under PHRF-LIS. Agreed, under PHRF-LIS 125s are also rated -6. Tough to see that we should be racing boat for boat with the 125s but honestly, no way of knowing for sure until we have a few races under our belt

Have you developed a set of polars yet? Be happy to compare vs my numbers for the 125. Send me a PM. 

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1 hour ago, ASP said:

Have you developed a set of polars yet? Be happy to compare vs my numbers for the 125. Send me a PM. 

correction, base rating is -6, we're adjusted to -3. I'll PM you ASP

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The 125 I race on in San Francisco rates -18. We give a turboed schock 40 6 seconds. 

Orr treats us better. 

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6 hours ago, IMR said:

The 125 I race on in San Francisco rates -18. We give a turboed schock 40 6 seconds. 

Orr treats us better. 

Brutal, -3 in PHRFNW. 

Melges 32 and J133 both at 24. J122 at 42.

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12 hours ago, ASP said:

Brutal, -3 in PHRFNW. 

Melges 32 and J133 both at 24. J122 at 42.

J/125 -12

J/125 with code 0 that has too small a mid girth -18 

Melges 32 27

J/44   21

 

It will be interesting to see what a J 121 will get rated at in SF.  Is there an ORR rating for the 121 in the N2B race? 

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The J121 is a cool boat but it looks like it is a little slow in light air. Now that there have been a few boats out racing what are everyone's impressions of the boat?

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Phrf 30 on random leg course with no Real running seems about accurate. This was without water ballast

not sure how the shorthanded sailors feel but for full crew racing the boat is proving to be a dog.  At least one is modified and another has already been donated.  750k was the number I was told for the full kitted out one that one class in bermuda race. 

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3 hours ago, crashtestdummy said:

Phrf 30 on random leg course with no Real running seems about accurate. This was without water ballast

not sure how the shorthanded sailors feel but for full crew racing the boat is proving to be a dog.  At least one is modified and another has already been donated.  750k was the number I was told for the full kitted out one that one class in bermuda race. 

750k wow!! I bet they could crank out 125’s for that

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13 hours ago, crashtestdummy said:

Phrf 30 on random leg course with no Real running seems about accurate. This was without water ballast

not sure how the shorthanded sailors feel but for full crew racing the boat is proving to be a dog.  At least one is modified and another has already been donated.  750k was the number I was told for the full kitted out one that one class in bermuda race. 

750k sounds like a lot, do you know what was included in that figure? Apollo is meticulously cared for and has made some rigging modifications and has a full sail package. But i'd be very surprised if they spent that much to get the boat up and running, maybe if you include annual program expenses like maintenance, travel, outfitting for Bermuda...etc. Their program travels all over the place so boat transport and dockage may bring it to that but those shouldn't really count toward the total cost of the boat. One could make a 121 competitive for much less

PHRF 30 w/out wb, assuming you're talking about the Narragansett rating, 23 w/ wb. These seem to be fair ratings (though I'm biased). In LIS we race with wb and rate -3 with spinnaker. LIS PHRF committee doesn't give a non-wb rating. Very tough to race to this rating in when the wind is windward/leeward courses. If there is any sort of reaching, we can be competitive if there is enough wind. Hard to find a point where the boat is overpowered which makes sense with the design brief...offshore, short-crew racer. On weeknights racing without spinnakers, we rate 9 and find it very difficult to be competitive without the spinnakers, tends to be very light wind. Having said all this...we love the boat because regardless of ratings, it is fast and a blast to sail!

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15 hours ago, crashtestdummy said:

Phrf 30 on random leg course with no Real running seems about accurate. This was without water ballast

not sure how the shorthanded sailors feel but for full crew racing the boat is proving to be a dog.  At least one is modified and another has already been donated.  750k was the number I was told for the full kitted out one that one class in bermuda race. 

Sad to hear.  Serious question:  does the boat not perform to it's polars or do the polars suggest the boat is a dog?  Or are we talking PHRF?  Can you share the modifications that were made?

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The UK boat has yet to prove itself and was modified with a straight lead fin keel without bulb for irc racing. Everything points to it being a competitive boat personally i’m still waiting...hopefully a proven team can get their hands on one. A mate of mine is doing the Transpac on one this year so i’m eager to hear what he has to say

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Come on guys, read the design brief!  The boat is designed/optimized for offshore, short-handed distance racing, not W/L short course sausage fests.  So, yeah its kinda a PHRF issue, but only in the sense that PHRF isn't really able to rate boats optimized for one environment well across all environments.  You see it with sport boats all the time. 

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The boat is fast and fun so im not surprised owners are looking to sail it more in shorter distance races where there might not be enough race boats for an IRC fleet. I know on LIS we have bunch of 30 to 50 NM day races that are popular for PHRF 

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6 hours ago, CordRipper said:

750k sounds like a lot, do you know what was included in that figure? Apollo is meticulously cared for and has made some rigging modifications and has a full sail package. But i'd be very surprised if they spent that much to get the boat up and running, maybe if you include annual program expenses like maintenance, travel, outfitting for Bermuda...etc. Their program travels all over the place so boat transport and dockage may bring it to that but those shouldn't really count toward the total cost of the boat. One could make a 121 competitive for much less

PHRF 30 w/out wb, assuming you're talking about the Narragansett rating, 23 w/ wb. These seem to be fair ratings (though I'm biased). In LIS we race with wb and rate -3 with spinnaker. LIS PHRF committee doesn't give a non-wb rating. Very tough to race to this rating in when the wind is windward/leeward courses. If there is any sort of reaching, we can be competitive if there is enough wind. Hard to find a point where the boat is overpowered which makes sense with the design brief...offshore, short-crew racer. On weeknights racing without spinnakers, we rate 9 and find it very difficult to be competitive without the spinnakers, tends to be very light wind. Having said all this...we love the boat because regardless of ratings, it is fast and a blast to sail!

The 121 at 30 seems like a really fair number. Anything in the single digits seems a bit much...wow. The boats that have been racing in NB have been great and well sorted. Been fun to race against them. I just can’t wrap my head around the price point. Damn...

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4 minutes ago, Vin said:

The 121 at 30 seems like a really fair number. Anything in the single digits seems a bit much...wow. The boats that have been racing in NB have been great and well sorted. Been fun to race against them. I just can’t wrap my head around the price point. Damn...

Seconding Vin's comments on the NB rating and great to have them out on the bay.  ... although you do well with the Summit 35, you know you want to get back into a J/Boat for the next Divided Sky!

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Just want to reiterate because I think the message got lost in my last post, this is a fast and fun boat to sail. Very please with it after our 1st season

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Anyone know what the deal was with the 121 that was at the Newport Boat Show last year. I had heard that it was heavily IRC optimized (whatever that means) and it pretty much blew the doors off all comers at its only local appearance. From what I understand it was headed to Japan. Interested to know how different the boats can be set up.

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On 1/8/2019 at 5:58 AM, CordRipper said:

750k sounds like a lot, do you know what was included in that figure? Apollo is meticulously cared for and has made some rigging modifications and has a full sail package. But i'd be very surprised if they spent that much to get the boat up and running, maybe if you include annual program expenses like maintenance, travel, outfitting for Bermuda...etc. Their program travels all over the place so boat transport and dockage may bring it to that but those shouldn't really count toward the total cost of the boat. One could make a 121 competitive for much less

PHRF 30 w/out wb, assuming you're talking about the Narragansett rating, 23 w/ wb. These seem to be fair ratings (though I'm biased). In LIS we race with wb and rate -3 with spinnaker. LIS PHRF committee doesn't give a non-wb rating. Very tough to race to this rating in when the wind is windward/leeward courses. If there is any sort of reaching, we can be competitive if there is enough wind. Hard to find a point where the boat is overpowered which makes sense with the design brief...offshore, short-crew racer. On weeknights racing without spinnakers, we rate 9 and find it very difficult to be competitive without the spinnakers, tends to be very light wind. Having said all this...we love the boat because regardless of ratings, it is fast and a blast to sail!

-3 ouch. Same as the 125 up here in the PNW. Absolutely no way the 121 is beating a 125, on any point of sail in any amount of breeze. 

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17 hours ago, Vin said:

Anyone know what the deal was with the 121 that was at the Newport Boat Show last year. I had heard that it was heavily IRC optimized (whatever that means) and it pretty much blew the doors off all comers at its only local appearance. From what I understand it was headed to Japan. Interested to know how different the boats can be set up.

Not sure about that boat specifically but since there is no one design rule/class, the boats have drifted quite a bit from each other due to after market modifications, different sail plans by different makers, and the IRC optimizations (generally changing the keel to a fin and adding a small fixed prod to the bow for smaller A-sails) that the boats going to Europe went through. In May, there is another J121 Spring Tune Up put on by JBoats in Newport. I hear they're expecting 5-7 boats so should be very interesting to see everyone lined up.

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7 hours ago, ASP said:

-3 ouch. Same as the 125 up here in the PNW. Absolutely no way the 121 is beating a 125, on any point of sail in any amount of breeze. 

Same here and agreed that we would be hard pressed to beat a 125 in most conditions boat for boat. I'd be really interested though to line up with one in 20kts+ at different points of sail with full water ballast. I would guess that we could hold our own above a beam reach but that anything below a beam reach the 125 would pull away. On the Bermuda race last year, that is the angle that Apollo won on in the last 24 hours when the wind kicked up to 15-20kts, though of course the bigger boats in our class up front only saw 10-15kts.

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On 1/8/2019 at 4:02 PM, WHK said:

Seconding Vin's comments on the NB rating and great to have them out on the bay.  ... although you do well with the Summit 35, you know you want to get back into a J/Boat for the next Divided Sky!

BS. A J/122 on NB rates 36 and you will never be able to convince me that J/Boats was only able to make a 40 footer 6 s/m faster after a decade of hull design, appendage development, mast upgrades, sail development, and overall sailboat refinement. The 121 deserves to be at 24 without water ballast and that's the truth. 

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ORC rates a J/121 only 16 secs/mile faster than a J/120 (with a smallish headsail) and 5 secs/mile faster than a J/111.  I think it would be more like 12 seconds faster than a J/120 with class sized sails.  Doesn't sound like much given the 20+ year design difference and the cost difference.  

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Roleur,

Folks made this same argument when the J/109 came out.  It wasn't really any faster than the 20 year older J-35...

The 121 is only (according to J/Boat's specs) 1000lbs lighter than a 120 , and only has 29 sqft more sail area.  So its only 7% lighter and has 4% more sail area.  Plus 120 can carry larger overlapping headsails.  121 likely also has a longer immersed waterline while sailing, but again, not by a whole lot.  So yes, it should be faster, but not by leaps and bounds.  Plus, I don't think it was intended to be that much faster.  It was intended to be able to be as fast (give or take) with 5 less guys on the rail...

Also, I'd bet that a new build J/120 would actually cost a little more than a new build J/121, as it has a nicer interior, and that adds cost and labor...

Plus its a shiny new boat, so you don't have age-related maintenance issues to deal with for the first 5 or 10 years... (by which time, many will have been sold in the natural order of things)...

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the 120.  but it all depends on what you goals and objectives are...

Crash

 

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Back in the beginning of this thread I was the first person to defend the purpose of the J/121 for short-handed racing.  That said, the comparison made at the time were boats much faster than a J/120.  

My main concern now is the weight.  Only 1000 pounds lighter than a J/120 sounds like an underachievement after 20 years.  And importantly, while what interior there is in a J/121 may be nicer, there is way more interior in a J/120, both in terms of weight and comfort.

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I meant to say that the 120 had a nicer interior, not the 121.  Obviously, my sentence structure wasn't particularly great...

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Raced against a few now, seems they are slightly slow upwind, but takeoff downhill. The ratings seems quite favorable thus far

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On 1/11/2019 at 5:17 PM, Roleur said:

Back in the beginning of this thread I was the first person to defend the purpose of the J/121 for short-handed racing.  That said, the comparison made at the time were boats much faster than a J/120.  

My main concern now is the weight.  Only 1000 pounds lighter than a J/120 sounds like an underachievement after 20 years.  And importantly, while what interior there is in a J/121 may be nicer, there is way more interior in a J/120, both in terms of weight and comfort.

1000 pounds lighter, but how is the ballast share? might see an improvement there?

 

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53 minutes ago, JMOD said:

1000 pounds lighter, but how is the ballast share? might see an improvement there?

 

J/120   6000 lbs ballast    7.00 foot draft    12.00 foot beam

J/121   4850 lbs ballast    7.75 foot draft    12.33 foot beam

 

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8 hours ago, slap said:

J/120   6000 lbs ballast    7.00 foot draft    12.00 foot beam

J/121   4850 lbs ballast    7.75 foot draft    12.33 foot beam

 

J/125 displacement 8300, ballast 4600, draft 7.9 foot, beam 10.6 feet 

 

I think they could have done a lot better with the 121

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