Recommended Posts

On 5/14/2018 at 5:44 AM, CordRipper said:

Which boat are you looking at? Eagle is 1.129 and I believe Apollo is slightly higher. If Jackhammer, they have IRC optimized by removing the bulb from the keel and removing the water ballast (along with other mods) so not really a 121 anymore.

God why..?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rock Lobster are racing in the rorc offshore series so must be gambling on a flat keel, the 121 is beamier than normal Js and carries it's beam further aft so I think it will just about hold up with the slight loss of stability. Having reduced drag from the flat keel should make it slipperier downwind 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, ASP said:

Have you raced under the -6 rating? There's no way the 121 is faster than a 125..

 

 

First race this weekend under PHRF-LIS. Agreed, under PHRF-LIS 125s are also rated -6. Tough to see that we should be racing boat for boat with the 125s but honestly, no way of knowing for sure until we have a few races under our belt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, CordRipper said:

First race this weekend under PHRF-LIS. Agreed, under PHRF-LIS 125s are also rated -6. Tough to see that we should be racing boat for boat with the 125s but honestly, no way of knowing for sure until we have a few races under our belt

Have you developed a set of polars yet? Be happy to compare vs my numbers for the 125. Send me a PM. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ASP said:

Have you developed a set of polars yet? Be happy to compare vs my numbers for the 125. Send me a PM. 

correction, base rating is -6, we're adjusted to -3. I'll PM you ASP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 125 I race on in San Francisco rates -18. We give a turboed schock 40 6 seconds. 

Orr treats us better. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, IMR said:

The 125 I race on in San Francisco rates -18. We give a turboed schock 40 6 seconds. 

Orr treats us better. 

Brutal, -3 in PHRFNW. 

Melges 32 and J133 both at 24. J122 at 42.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, ASP said:

Brutal, -3 in PHRFNW. 

Melges 32 and J133 both at 24. J122 at 42.

J/125 -12

J/125 with code 0 that has too small a mid girth -18 

Melges 32 27

J/44   21

 

It will be interesting to see what a J 121 will get rated at in SF.  Is there an ORR rating for the 121 in the N2B race? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The J121 is a cool boat but it looks like it is a little slow in light air. Now that there have been a few boats out racing what are everyone's impressions of the boat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Phrf 30 on random leg course with no Real running seems about accurate. This was without water ballast

not sure how the shorthanded sailors feel but for full crew racing the boat is proving to be a dog.  At least one is modified and another has already been donated.  750k was the number I was told for the full kitted out one that one class in bermuda race. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, crashtestdummy said:

Phrf 30 on random leg course with no Real running seems about accurate. This was without water ballast

not sure how the shorthanded sailors feel but for full crew racing the boat is proving to be a dog.  At least one is modified and another has already been donated.  750k was the number I was told for the full kitted out one that one class in bermuda race. 

750k wow!! I bet they could crank out 125’s for that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, crashtestdummy said:

Phrf 30 on random leg course with no Real running seems about accurate. This was without water ballast

not sure how the shorthanded sailors feel but for full crew racing the boat is proving to be a dog.  At least one is modified and another has already been donated.  750k was the number I was told for the full kitted out one that one class in bermuda race. 

750k sounds like a lot, do you know what was included in that figure? Apollo is meticulously cared for and has made some rigging modifications and has a full sail package. But i'd be very surprised if they spent that much to get the boat up and running, maybe if you include annual program expenses like maintenance, travel, outfitting for Bermuda...etc. Their program travels all over the place so boat transport and dockage may bring it to that but those shouldn't really count toward the total cost of the boat. One could make a 121 competitive for much less

PHRF 30 w/out wb, assuming you're talking about the Narragansett rating, 23 w/ wb. These seem to be fair ratings (though I'm biased). In LIS we race with wb and rate -3 with spinnaker. LIS PHRF committee doesn't give a non-wb rating. Very tough to race to this rating in when the wind is windward/leeward courses. If there is any sort of reaching, we can be competitive if there is enough wind. Hard to find a point where the boat is overpowered which makes sense with the design brief...offshore, short-crew racer. On weeknights racing without spinnakers, we rate 9 and find it very difficult to be competitive without the spinnakers, tends to be very light wind. Having said all this...we love the boat because regardless of ratings, it is fast and a blast to sail!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, crashtestdummy said:

Phrf 30 on random leg course with no Real running seems about accurate. This was without water ballast

not sure how the shorthanded sailors feel but for full crew racing the boat is proving to be a dog.  At least one is modified and another has already been donated.  750k was the number I was told for the full kitted out one that one class in bermuda race. 

Sad to hear.  Serious question:  does the boat not perform to it's polars or do the polars suggest the boat is a dog?  Or are we talking PHRF?  Can you share the modifications that were made?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The UK boat has yet to prove itself and was modified with a straight lead fin keel without bulb for irc racing. Everything points to it being a competitive boat personally i’m still waiting...hopefully a proven team can get their hands on one. A mate of mine is doing the Transpac on one this year so i’m eager to hear what he has to say

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Come on guys, read the design brief!  The boat is designed/optimized for offshore, short-handed distance racing, not W/L short course sausage fests.  So, yeah its kinda a PHRF issue, but only in the sense that PHRF isn't really able to rate boats optimized for one environment well across all environments.  You see it with sport boats all the time. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The boat is fast and fun so im not surprised owners are looking to sail it more in shorter distance races where there might not be enough race boats for an IRC fleet. I know on LIS we have bunch of 30 to 50 NM day races that are popular for PHRF 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, CordRipper said:

750k sounds like a lot, do you know what was included in that figure? Apollo is meticulously cared for and has made some rigging modifications and has a full sail package. But i'd be very surprised if they spent that much to get the boat up and running, maybe if you include annual program expenses like maintenance, travel, outfitting for Bermuda...etc. Their program travels all over the place so boat transport and dockage may bring it to that but those shouldn't really count toward the total cost of the boat. One could make a 121 competitive for much less

PHRF 30 w/out wb, assuming you're talking about the Narragansett rating, 23 w/ wb. These seem to be fair ratings (though I'm biased). In LIS we race with wb and rate -3 with spinnaker. LIS PHRF committee doesn't give a non-wb rating. Very tough to race to this rating in when the wind is windward/leeward courses. If there is any sort of reaching, we can be competitive if there is enough wind. Hard to find a point where the boat is overpowered which makes sense with the design brief...offshore, short-crew racer. On weeknights racing without spinnakers, we rate 9 and find it very difficult to be competitive without the spinnakers, tends to be very light wind. Having said all this...we love the boat because regardless of ratings, it is fast and a blast to sail!

The 121 at 30 seems like a really fair number. Anything in the single digits seems a bit much...wow. The boats that have been racing in NB have been great and well sorted. Been fun to race against them. I just can’t wrap my head around the price point. Damn...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Vin said:

The 121 at 30 seems like a really fair number. Anything in the single digits seems a bit much...wow. The boats that have been racing in NB have been great and well sorted. Been fun to race against them. I just can’t wrap my head around the price point. Damn...

Seconding Vin's comments on the NB rating and great to have them out on the bay.  ... although you do well with the Summit 35, you know you want to get back into a J/Boat for the next Divided Sky!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just want to reiterate because I think the message got lost in my last post, this is a fast and fun boat to sail. Very please with it after our 1st season

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone know what the deal was with the 121 that was at the Newport Boat Show last year. I had heard that it was heavily IRC optimized (whatever that means) and it pretty much blew the doors off all comers at its only local appearance. From what I understand it was headed to Japan. Interested to know how different the boats can be set up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/8/2019 at 5:58 AM, CordRipper said:

750k sounds like a lot, do you know what was included in that figure? Apollo is meticulously cared for and has made some rigging modifications and has a full sail package. But i'd be very surprised if they spent that much to get the boat up and running, maybe if you include annual program expenses like maintenance, travel, outfitting for Bermuda...etc. Their program travels all over the place so boat transport and dockage may bring it to that but those shouldn't really count toward the total cost of the boat. One could make a 121 competitive for much less

PHRF 30 w/out wb, assuming you're talking about the Narragansett rating, 23 w/ wb. These seem to be fair ratings (though I'm biased). In LIS we race with wb and rate -3 with spinnaker. LIS PHRF committee doesn't give a non-wb rating. Very tough to race to this rating in when the wind is windward/leeward courses. If there is any sort of reaching, we can be competitive if there is enough wind. Hard to find a point where the boat is overpowered which makes sense with the design brief...offshore, short-crew racer. On weeknights racing without spinnakers, we rate 9 and find it very difficult to be competitive without the spinnakers, tends to be very light wind. Having said all this...we love the boat because regardless of ratings, it is fast and a blast to sail!

-3 ouch. Same as the 125 up here in the PNW. Absolutely no way the 121 is beating a 125, on any point of sail in any amount of breeze. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Vin said:

Anyone know what the deal was with the 121 that was at the Newport Boat Show last year. I had heard that it was heavily IRC optimized (whatever that means) and it pretty much blew the doors off all comers at its only local appearance. From what I understand it was headed to Japan. Interested to know how different the boats can be set up.

Not sure about that boat specifically but since there is no one design rule/class, the boats have drifted quite a bit from each other due to after market modifications, different sail plans by different makers, and the IRC optimizations (generally changing the keel to a fin and adding a small fixed prod to the bow for smaller A-sails) that the boats going to Europe went through. In May, there is another J121 Spring Tune Up put on by JBoats in Newport. I hear they're expecting 5-7 boats so should be very interesting to see everyone lined up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, ASP said:

-3 ouch. Same as the 125 up here in the PNW. Absolutely no way the 121 is beating a 125, on any point of sail in any amount of breeze. 

Same here and agreed that we would be hard pressed to beat a 125 in most conditions boat for boat. I'd be really interested though to line up with one in 20kts+ at different points of sail with full water ballast. I would guess that we could hold our own above a beam reach but that anything below a beam reach the 125 would pull away. On the Bermuda race last year, that is the angle that Apollo won on in the last 24 hours when the wind kicked up to 15-20kts, though of course the bigger boats in our class up front only saw 10-15kts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/8/2019 at 4:02 PM, WHK said:

Seconding Vin's comments on the NB rating and great to have them out on the bay.  ... although you do well with the Summit 35, you know you want to get back into a J/Boat for the next Divided Sky!

BS. A J/122 on NB rates 36 and you will never be able to convince me that J/Boats was only able to make a 40 footer 6 s/m faster after a decade of hull design, appendage development, mast upgrades, sail development, and overall sailboat refinement. The 121 deserves to be at 24 without water ballast and that's the truth. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ORC rates a J/121 only 16 secs/mile faster than a J/120 (with a smallish headsail) and 5 secs/mile faster than a J/111.  I think it would be more like 12 seconds faster than a J/120 with class sized sails.  Doesn't sound like much given the 20+ year design difference and the cost difference.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Roleur,

Folks made this same argument when the J/109 came out.  It wasn't really any faster than the 20 year older J-35...

The 121 is only (according to J/Boat's specs) 1000lbs lighter than a 120 , and only has 29 sqft more sail area.  So its only 7% lighter and has 4% more sail area.  Plus 120 can carry larger overlapping headsails.  121 likely also has a longer immersed waterline while sailing, but again, not by a whole lot.  So yes, it should be faster, but not by leaps and bounds.  Plus, I don't think it was intended to be that much faster.  It was intended to be able to be as fast (give or take) with 5 less guys on the rail...

Also, I'd bet that a new build J/120 would actually cost a little more than a new build J/121, as it has a nicer interior, and that adds cost and labor...

Plus its a shiny new boat, so you don't have age-related maintenance issues to deal with for the first 5 or 10 years... (by which time, many will have been sold in the natural order of things)...

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the 120.  but it all depends on what you goals and objectives are...

Crash

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back in the beginning of this thread I was the first person to defend the purpose of the J/121 for short-handed racing.  That said, the comparison made at the time were boats much faster than a J/120.  

My main concern now is the weight.  Only 1000 pounds lighter than a J/120 sounds like an underachievement after 20 years.  And importantly, while what interior there is in a J/121 may be nicer, there is way more interior in a J/120, both in terms of weight and comfort.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I meant to say that the 120 had a nicer interior, not the 121.  Obviously, my sentence structure wasn't particularly great...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Raced against a few now, seems they are slightly slow upwind, but takeoff downhill. The ratings seems quite favorable thus far

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/11/2019 at 5:17 PM, Roleur said:

Back in the beginning of this thread I was the first person to defend the purpose of the J/121 for short-handed racing.  That said, the comparison made at the time were boats much faster than a J/120.  

My main concern now is the weight.  Only 1000 pounds lighter than a J/120 sounds like an underachievement after 20 years.  And importantly, while what interior there is in a J/121 may be nicer, there is way more interior in a J/120, both in terms of weight and comfort.

1000 pounds lighter, but how is the ballast share? might see an improvement there?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, JMOD said:

1000 pounds lighter, but how is the ballast share? might see an improvement there?

 

J/120   6000 lbs ballast    7.00 foot draft    12.00 foot beam

J/121   4850 lbs ballast    7.75 foot draft    12.33 foot beam

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, slap said:

J/120   6000 lbs ballast    7.00 foot draft    12.00 foot beam

J/121   4850 lbs ballast    7.75 foot draft    12.33 foot beam

 

J/125 displacement 8300, ballast 4600, draft 7.9 foot, beam 10.6 feet 

 

I think they could have done a lot better with the 121

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the 1000 pound difference is the brochure weight.  I wonder how that will play in the real world.  All the 120's that I've seen numbers for are roughly 1,500 pounds over the brochure weight.  Is the 121 also 1,500 pounds over?  I can't wrap my head around the 121 hull being heavier than the 120 hull.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you sure the 121 is heavier than the 120 ?

In the ORC database there is one 121 registered at 6356 kg.

The 120's in the ORC database are somewhere between 6500 - 7100 kg.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, jackolantern said:

But you can’t cruise a J/125 with your wife!!! /S

Bingo...the 125 looks like a bat outta hell and a blast to sail but do you need full 8-10 person crew? With the 121, you don't get the performance of the 125 in all conditions or points of sail but as the design brief states, you can sail it with 4-6 people rather than a full 8-10.

And as jackolantern points out, you can cruise the 121 with the wife....a big factor for many boat owners

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, ZeeZee said:

Are you sure the 121 is heavier than the 120 ?

In the ORC database there is one 121 registered at 6356 kg.

The 120's in the ORC database are somewhere between 6500 - 7100 kg.

Hull weight, not total displacement.  J/120 is heavier overall, but has a 1,150 lb heavier keel, making the hull of the 121 heavier, apparently.

I do wonder about that ORC weight for the J/121.  That's Jackhammer.  Isn't that the boat that is IRC optimized without a bulb keel.  

I know Riva will be getting an ORC rating soon.  Curious to see their actual weight and rating.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

#10 (standard config w bulb) came in at <6.100 kg in ORC config (6.200 w main, jib, A2 + some other stuff in "local measurement mode").

Having sailed the 88, 111 & 121, I would have preferred a lighter boat (a 121 w the same feel as the 88 :D ) but as a dual purpose boat for "bucket list events", I think it's spot on.

Rating is decent and you'd be able to race it at 100% with your friends. Even if there are some upwind legs. Off course a J/125 is more fun for a Transpac, but the J/121 will (for most people) be the better boat for a Fastnet or a round trip to Bermuda.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many 121s are already for sale? Or already onto their second owners? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/20/2019 at 4:11 PM, jackolantern said:

But you can’t cruise a J/125 with your wife!!! /S

Why not?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Christian said:

Why not?

Because Jboats didn't put throw pillows and tea lights out down below when they took their marketing photos of the 125

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jackolantern said:

Because Jboats didn't put throw pillows and tea lights out down below when they took their marketing photos of the 125

You need a new wife.................................just sayin'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, overserved said:

Lightly used J121 for Sale in New Orleans. Take a look at the link.

https://sailinganarchy.com/advert/2018-j-121-turn-key-4/

Think that ugly dragon graphic will come off easily? And Aircon?!?

I’ve seen the North Sails tuning guide for the 121. It needs crew weight to be ahead of the shrouds in light airs. I know one of the boats in the 2018 Bermuda Race removed their life raft from the back of the cockpit and mounted it just aft of the companionway to shift more weight forward. Do you think J/Boats got the weight balance wrong?

https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/resources/j-121-speed-guide

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, sorry you do not like the graphic yes it can be removed with out an issue.. Yes, when you live in the deep south it is nice to have an AC, which is about 50lbs.

I have seen the guide and we actually starting moving crew and gear forward prior to the guide coming out. Just keep an eye on the knuckle in all other conditions. We opted to keep the life raft in the stern for ease of deployment during the Isla Mujeres race. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only $430k (used) to $500k+ for a non-carbon 12k+ pound 40'er, gulp.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, squiby said:

Think that ugly dragon graphic will come off easily? And Aircon?!?

I’ve seen the North Sails tuning guide for the 121. It needs crew weight to be ahead of the shrouds in light airs. I know one of the boats in the 2018 Bermuda Race removed their life raft from the back of the cockpit and mounted it just aft of the companionway to shift more weight forward. Do you think J/Boats got the weight balance wrong?

https://www.northsails.com/sailing/en/resources/j-121-speed-guide

Very similar to an 88 in terms of weight balancing so no, i don't think they got the weight balancing wrong. It's just something you have to be mindful of. After the spring tune up, where those tuning guide pics were taken, we started sailing upwind with 2-3 in front of the shrouds.

 

17 hours ago, overserved said:

Well, sorry you do not like the graphic yes it can be removed with out an issue.. Yes, when you live in the deep south it is nice to have an AC, which is about 50lbs.

I have seen the guide and we actually starting moving crew and gear forward prior to the guide coming out. Just keep an eye on the knuckle in all other conditions. We opted to keep the life raft in the stern for ease of deployment during the Isla Mujeres race. 

 

Keeping an eye on the knuckle is key, as with most boats

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, CordRipper said:

Very similar to an 88 in terms of weight balancing so no, i don't think they got the weight balancing wrong. It's just something you have to be mindful of. After the spring tune up, where those tuning guide pics were taken, we started sailing upwind with 2-3 in front of the shrouds.

Keeping an eye on the knuckle is key, as with most boats

2

Same with the J/111 :D Only helmsman in the cockpit (as far forward as possible) in the light stuff...

hollenderseilasen17-16.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, CordRipper said:

Very similar to an 88 in terms of weight balancing so no, i don't think they got the weight balancing wrong. It's just something you have to be mindful of. After the spring tune up, where those tuning guide pics were taken, we started sailing upwind with 2-3 in front of the shrouds.

 

Keeping an eye on the knuckle is key, as with most boats

More importantly, why are you sailing with enough people so as to have 2-3 in front of the shrouds on a boat that was designed for shorthanded (max 5) sailing??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shifting weight on a race boat is nothing new. Why act like it is?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jackolantern said:

More importantly, why are you sailing with enough people so as to have 2-3 in front of the shrouds on a boat that was designed for shorthanded (max 5) sailing??

Boats had various crew aboard that may sail different events, there was also a future owner from Japan in attendance with one of his crew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, JMOD said:

Shifting weight on a race boat is nothing new. Why act like it is?

Because it’s fun to take on Stu and the JBoats marketing team. If they were serious about promoting the short handed coastal racing class they’d write a stricter class rule. Instead, one team shows up at an event with 7 guys on the rail and the whole idea goes to bupkis. It’s doing nothing for participation besides lifting 600k+ from owners wallets and adding to the 40 footer fully crewed arms race 

The above referenced Japanese boat was so highly specced and prepped that it isn’t a J121 any more.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now