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Doug Lord

New Flying Phantom Essentiel

80 posts in this topic

There is a new Flying Phantom: The "Essentiel". It uses surface piercing foils like the NACRA 17 and A Cat.




Specifications

Length: 5,5m / 18’

Width: 2,55m (EU road legal)

Weigth: 170kg

Mast: 9,1m aluminum

Hulls construction: Epoxy glass sandwich

Main sail: R Polyester laminate / 17sqm

Jib: R Polyester laminate / 5sqm

Code 0: R Polyester with furling system / 20sqm


11sefli.jpg

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They need to provide more information than that. Is it going to be faster round a course than the current FP? If so, can the hulls of the old FP be adapted to the new design, or are they about to get z-foils too to keep the old FP ahead of the new one? I suspect the latter as the new one appears to be being promoted as more user-friendly for beginners.

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Curious as well if the foils will be available for the old boat. If you look at the N17 Mk. 2 design brief, the 3 point L foil configuration has higher top end speed than the 4 point z foils...

 

Besides the wings (an often asked request from big boat owner who don't want to trapeze), the aluminum mast and fiberglass hulls indicate an entry level boat. Who is running the class??

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If you look at the N17 Mk. 2 design brief, the 3 point L foil configuration has higher top end speed than the 4 point z foils..

 

You need to be more specific. The 3 point foiling set up was faster than the 4 point Z foils, as designed by them. If you were to design Z foils for speed, you wouldn't make them as big as the ones being used on the N17. They have sacrificed speed for ease of sailing and have produced huge foils. They nearly touch in the middle! It creates a far more stable boat, but a significantly slower one. The one criticism I have heard about the N17F is that they might have made it too easy for a boat that is meant to be at the pinnacle of the sport.

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If you look at the N17 Mk. 2 design brief, the 3 point L foil configuration has higher top end speed than the 4 point z foils..

 

You need to be more specific. The 3 point foiling set up was faster than the 4 point Z foils, as designed by them. If you were to design Z foils for speed, you wouldn't make them as big as the ones being used on the N17. They have sacrificed speed for ease of sailing and have produced huge foils. They nearly touch in the middle! It creates a far more stable boat, but a significantly slower one. The one criticism I have heard about the N17F is that they might have made it too easy for a boat that is meant to be at the pinnacle of the sport.

 

 

So you're saying that by moving the center of lift of the foils more toward the center, stability is improved?

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A Class,

 

I was pretty specific in referencing the chart M&M developed and was part of the presentation to the class on going foiling or not. I'm not sure which Z-boards they presented in that chart. Yes, they tried a less stable, faster pair and the feedback from the sailors was they were too fast and unstable to allow good course racing in 20+ kts of breeze. The biggest criticism (besides build quality) of the old boats was lack of stability in breeze-challenging, absolutely, but perhaps a bit too challenging!

 

My concern with the Phantom Essential is the glass hulls and longevity when slamming down off the foils.

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I looked at the new NACRA 17 pix of (apparently) polyester + fiberglass hulls (all white inside with bubbles) showing breakage around the daggerboard trunks. Heavy and not all that unbreakable. That is why we have lots of light, pretty dang tough carbon-fiber boats instead, right?

 

Trunks like that crack atthe bottom even in 30-year old Hobie18s, like a leaky one I inspected yesterday.

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The biggest criticism (besides build quality) of the old boats was lack of stability in breeze-challenging, absolutely, but perhaps a bit too challenging!

 

We saw in the Olympic final that the pool of talent in the nacra 17 class was pretty shallow. If you can do two penalty turns in a 15 minute race and still pass all but the other medalists it suggests that there were a number of people in the top ten that weren't competitive.

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My view of that is pretty different. I didn't see the final race, no doubt Santi sailed it like he owned it, and no doubt we could have put up a bigger fight on the U.S side (Bora is a good sailor, not so sure about his crew...).

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I looked at the new NACRA 17 pix of (apparently) polyester + fiberglass hulls (all white inside with bubbles) showing breakage around the daggerboard trunks. Heavy and not all that unbreakable. That is why we have lots of light, pretty dang tough carbon-fiber boats instead, right?

 

Trunks like that crack atthe bottom even in 30-year old Hobie18s, like a leaky one I inspected yesterday.

 

Boats are vinylester, at least the F18's are. Big difference vs. polyester and the delta between vinyl and epoxy is small, 1-2%, and very dependent on the product (the better vinylester's outperform West 105 resin for example). The E-glass is a bigger issue, as can be the foam (big differences in grades of foam!). They are switching to carbon however which should make a rather large improvements, upping the skill of the workforce a bit and the QC should go up as well.

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All of these construction type issues were raised prior to the selection trials by rank and file sailors AND Tornado olympic sailors to their NAs. Melvin sold the ISAF technical committee on the design and build schedule. In theory... they had plenty of experience in doing this work and the testing phase was nice... but not needed. The boat was clearly half baked from the git go. The new crop of Olympic sailors told the world. that the boat was GREAT... really challenging.... worthy of testing their olympic skills. No worries.

 

Nacra would have had a huge market incentive to get the 17 right.... They had T foil rudders ready to go that would have made the boat sea worthy... What happened?

 

No pressure on ISAF by the newbie Olympic sailors until late in year three of the quad???

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There's a different thread for the 17 issues...

 

I was just pointing out the competitive hull life of an essential vs. all carbon stock flying phantom may be lower. Saving a few thousand on the hull laminate just isn't worth it, actually it costs you, the owner, more in the long term! The 505's figured that out 30 years ago!!!!! Why haven't high performance beach cats followed suite??

 

I do wonder what the coat delta on the foils is, must be significant to warrant a different boat.

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When is someone going to revive the B-Class, Let Nacra and Flying Phantom compete with some home builders and possibly a DNA F2...

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There's a different thread for the 17 issues...

 

I was just pointing out the competitive hull life of an essential vs. all carbon stock flying phantom may be lower. Saving a few thousand on the hull laminate just isn't worth it, actually it costs you, the owner, more in the long term! The 505's figured that out 30 years ago!!!!! Why haven't high performance beach cats followed suite??

 

I do wonder what the coat delta on the foils is, must be significant to warrant a different boat.

the marstrom tornados were done with autoclave glass, epoxy and honeycomb, also the early stilletos.

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The biggest criticism (besides build quality) of the old boats was lack of stability in breeze-challenging, absolutely, but perhaps a bit too challenging!

 

We saw in the Olympic final that the pool of talent in the nacra 17 class was pretty shallow. If you can do two penalty turns in a 15 minute race and still pass all but the other medalists it suggests that there were a number of people in the top ten that weren't competitive.

 

 

Maybe you should look at race results a bit closer

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Appologies Bora, for some reason I thought they got right back up to 3rd or 4th

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No problem but I don't think you are giving a fair appraisal of the talent either. Fast boats shifty conditions, and sometimes stuff just rolls your way.

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There's a different thread for the 17 issues...

 

I was just pointing out the competitive hull life of an essential vs. all carbon stock flying phantom may be lower. Saving a few thousand on the hull laminate just isn't worth it, actually it costs you, the owner, more in the long term! The 505's figured that out 30 years ago!!!!! Why haven't high performance beach cats followed suite??

 

I do wonder what the coat delta on the foils is, must be significant to warrant a different boat.

the marstrom tornados were done with autoclave glass, epoxy and honeycomb, also the early stilletos.

 

 

Phantom isn't building in an autoclave last I checked. There is a big difference between S-2 prepreg/epoxy and E-glass/vinylester infusion, both in terms of quality, weight, and stiffness. But most beachcat owners don't care.

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No problem but I don't think you are giving a fair appraisal of the talent either. Fast boats shifty conditions, and sometimes stuff just rolls your way.

Bora, how do you think foiling changes that game? Will the boats handle shifty conditions better than last time?

 

What's your take on the essential vs. existing Flying Phantom, i.e 4 point vs. 3 point foiling?

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Boat is designed to be a foiler or a class legal F-18. Trunks will accept a straight foil, rudders and remove wings and you will be class legal for F18 racing.

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So when can I get a add on foil kit for my F18? Would not the trunks be further forward than standard for F18 straight boards?

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The hull layup isn't F18 class legal if they are using epoxy. So one or the other statement is incorrect! To reduce costs I would think a Vinylester/gelcoated hull would be standard on the Essential but the boat at the boat show appears to have been painted, which likely means an epoxy build.

 

Re trunk location: In theory I agree with that (the A's having been moving the boards further and further forward), in practice the F18 wildcat/Phantom/Exploder have their boards pretty far forward and are likely suitable locations for foiling. In stock F18's they aren't reinforced for foiling loads so I don't think an upgrade kit will be coming anytime soon, though it may be possible (F18's being a bit on the overbuilt side to begin with). My other question is sail area, stock F18 is a bit underpowered in below 13-15kts, so the foils would likely make the boat slower until you reach the crossover point? Or perhaps reduce drag enough through lifting to mitigate any inherent drag from the T-rudders etc.?

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The Phantom has always been a painted boat. Even the first F18 phantoms were painted.

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Yes, I'm well aware of that, and agree with their decisions in general, paint over gelcoat and epoxy over vinylester result in longer lasting boats for the customers. My point is the Phantom Essential won't be class legal in the F18 if built in epoxy. I don't make the rules, though would argue this is quite a silly one mostly benefiting the builders as the best vinylesters are comparable with epoxy, but it is a current class rule that would need to be changed. My opinion is Phantom should change their build if they wish to play in the F18 fleet (I don't think they really do), rather than start another sh$t storm like they did with the original paint vs. gelcoat Phantom F18.

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The all up weight of the F18 is pretty much "fat boy" territory, and that territory simple ain't the same space that foilers occupy.

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The all up weight of the F18 is pretty much "fat boy" territory, and that territory simple ain't the same space that foilers occupy.

 

The F18 minimum ready to sail weight is 180 kg-the essential is 170 kg-not a lot of difference.

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Not surprising given overall dimensions and materials and hulls are basically the same. Regardless, it is still fat boy territory as Wayne indicates, so how well does it foil?

 

I had the opportunity to sail on a Nacra F20c circa 2016, curved boards w/ sliders but no t-foil rudders. I was quite confident we would have achieved stable foiling downwind with some t or L rudders, as we were flying very unstably without said rudders very easily, and with some practice probably could have kept it going. Anyway, this beast is 154kg ready to sail (not sure what the FCS weighs, but can't be too far off), and in 12-13 kts true upwind w/ 370lb crew weight we were already dropping traveler w/ max Cunningham. In those conditions, we were running 18-19 kts downwind. In 6 kts of breeze, we were doing 7-8 kts downwind. I'm by no means an expert on these beasts but its pretty clear why Nacra started with this platform for the FCS rather than the F18. Its got far, far more power, basically fully powered up in 10kts where the F18 needs closer to 13-14kts, and the length and width make the platform a very stable learning base for flying. I can also see why the FCS guys go home when its starting to blow near 20, its just a beast and the speeds I've been quoted will make most shit their paints.

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If I could get a set of foils at a reasonable price, rather than cutting up the Wildcat I would get an old Capricorn and cut in cassets. Would be a cheap folier. if 10kg is the wt difference most of this could be found for minimal cost of a few carbon bits.

Of interest I got a tour of one of the AC bases in Bermuda a few weeks ago. on the way back to the dock we stopped at the selection of foiling toys. One thing that I noticed was that they had taken the kites of the flying phantoms because they felt they lost more time putting them up and down than they gained.

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Very interesting about the Phantoms-thanks....

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If I could get a set of foils at a reasonable price, rather than cutting up the Wildcat I would get an old Capricorn and cut in cassets. Would be a cheap folier. if 10kg is the wt difference most of this could be found for minimal cost of a few carbon bits..

Weight means bigger foils which means heavy weight foils which then means higher over all weight, which means a stronger layup, you get the picture.

 

As to the Capricorn, it's one of the smaller F18 hulls and would make a great foiler conversion but my Capricorn hulls are nearly 54kgs each such is the agricultural build of the F18's ( nothing against AHPC but why economise on weight when the total sum is going to be under class weights ), but you can by them for £4K or less, say 3k on 2 main foils, T foil rudder extensions say .5k and voila one pretty good foiling workhorse. Maybe there is life yet for the F18 class.

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If I could get a set of foils at a reasonable price, rather than cutting up the Wildcat I would get an old Capricorn and cut in cassets. Would be a cheap folier. if 10kg is the wt difference most of this could be found for minimal cost of a few carbon bits..

Weight means bigger foils which means heavy weight foils which then means higher over all weight, which means a stronger layup, you get the picture.

 

As to the Capricorn, it's one of the smaller F18 hulls and would make a great foiler conversion but my Capricorn hulls are nearly 54kgs each such is the agricultural build of the F18's ( nothing against AHPC but why economise on weight when the total sum is going to be under class weights ), but you can by them for £4K or less, say 3k on 2 main foils, T foil rudder extensions say .5k and voila one pretty good foiling workhorse. Maybe there is life yet for the F18 class.

 

Go for the new Capricorn F18

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Boat is designed to be a foiler or a class legal F-18. Trunks will accept a straight foil, rudders and remove wings and you will be class legal for F18 racing.

???? You Where do you read that on the Essentiel??? I think you confused comments on another project. The Essentiel hull is not F18 Class legal as it is epoxy / foam core built and will not accept straight boards.

.

Only way hull to be hull class legal is to be epoxy / wood core.

 

You need to read well articles before transcripting what you think you understood. An F18 Class legal hull with a convertible dagger case is a project we will do coming months with a known A-Class / F18 builder.

 

Cheers.

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If I could get a set of foils at a reasonable price, rather than cutting up the Wildcat I would get an old Capricorn and cut in cassets. Would be a cheap folier. if 10kg is the wt difference most of this could be found for minimal cost of a few carbon bits.

Of interest I got a tour of one of the AC bases in Bermuda a few weeks ago. on the way back to the dock we stopped at the selection of foiling toys. One thing that I noticed was that they had taken the kites of the flying phantoms because they felt they lost more time putting them up and down than they gained.

FoilingTiger1.jpg

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Maybe there is life yet for the F18 class.

Need to do something to save this class from certain extinction

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With the heavy weight of the F18 and the lack of sail area / weight, then a non standard A Class foil design package would have to be created, with the standard vertical board trunks already in place then its reasonably obvious to simply go for the Whisper or S9 (personally I favour the S9 wand forward wand style ) type of foil with the horizontal T simply bolting on the bottom of a new vertical. Yes you would have to cut a hole in the side to add some strengthening around the trunks and add a top slider, but that would be small beer for the benefits obtained at a relatively modest cost.

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Maybe there is life yet for the F18 class.

Need to do something to save this class from certain extinction

 

 

That's a pretty pessimistic view on one of the most successful multihull classes of all time...

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Maybe there is life yet for the F18 class.

Need to do something to save this class from certain extinction

 

 

That's a pretty pessimistic view on one of the most successful multihull classes of all time...

 

 

Think it would be difficult to argue the F18 is one of the most successful multihull hull classes based on numbers compared to the Hobie 14, Hobie 16 and Dart 18.......

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Maybe there is life yet for the F18 class.

Need to do something to save this class from certain extinction

 

Why do you say that TA. I only do one or two F18 regatta's a year but the numbers are good and new boats keep showing up. the Wildcat fleet is building with new boats just launched and more on the way, Future appears positive to me.

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Maybe there is life yet for the F18 class.

Need to do something to save this class from certain extinction

That's a pretty pessimistic view on one of the most successful multihull classes of all time...

That was sarcasm on my part...... Reading Wayne's comments in other threads he seems to think the F18 class is dead and F16s and foilers will take over the world

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Rawhide, we are expecting more than 50 boats at this year's Nationals at Port Melbourne. Why don't you add your name to the list. We need to catch up with a beer.

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Maybe there is life yet for the F18 class.

Need to do something to save this class from certain extinction

That's a pretty pessimistic view on one of the most successful multihull classes of all time...

Think it would be difficult to argue the F18 is one of the most successful multihull hull classes based on numbers compared to the Hobie 14, Hobie 16 and Dart 18.......

Pretty easy to argue it is, still is and will continue to be one of the most successful multihull classes. Sure it is not the most successful, that will likely be th H16.

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That was sarcasm on my part...... Reading Wayne's comments in other threads he seems to think the F18 class is dead and F16s and foilers will take over the world

 

Ah didn't say that at all, just saying F16's are a cool bit of kit that are comparable in speed to the F18 for light weigh crews, do people strap 80kgs on their backs and voluntarily walk around the beach, so why move a heavier by 80kg, a boat around the beach when you can move a F16 that does the same speed on the water.

 

What is the boat I'm building at the moment, its a non foiler, because for the average Mum & Dad boat with their kids, the last thing that Dad wants to do is scare the ferk out of Mum by doing 25 knots across the water, that's the last time she will go sailing with him. As a F18 is pretty scary to most wives, that's why Hobie and Nacra sell their smaller boats, its a different market.

 

As to the F18, classes come and go pretty quickly when a better offer is put on the table by another class. With the N17 now the default Olympic boat becoming a full foiler and boats like the S9 and F101 appearing at less than or about the cost of an F18 ( which you know is going to depreciate by 50% the moment you hit the water ), foiling is looking pretty seductive. With the ever increasing numbers of foilers appearing and availability to try these boats, to be honest once you have tried a lightweight foiling boat, you aren't going to go back just because the F18 was the most successful class.

 

Sorry but if you as a bit of an adrenaline junkie and do like the faster side of life, as most F18 owners do, at about the same money you have a choice of on one hand a 185kg boat that although highly developed is now over 25 year old in design and on the other hand an 85kg foiler that has lower running costs, less depreciation you can move it around easily on the beach and not really have to worry too much about organising a crew, it sort of is a no brainer to me which boat is going to be the winner.

 

My guess it will be the foiling single handers that will develop most, but the whole foiling scene is going to depend entirely on one or two manufacturers dumping a large number of boats into the market at discount rates just to get a momentum going. Without that early impetus and numbers appearing I would suggest that like the F16 class, foiling will tickle along as a part of the sport which F18 owners will consider to be a bit whacky and off beat. :rolleyes:

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I have played F16 as well as F18. The F16 was fun and I enjoyed the light weight when it came to handling on shore however I have enjoyed my F18 racing a LOT more. Larger fleets with more competitive racing. The F18 can also be pushed a LOT harder in big breeze and big waves. I also do not need to sail with a midget to be ideal weight.

 

As for light weight foilers, I will get an A one day however one thing that concerns me is when the breeze and waves are up.... They stay on shore when we are dragging our F18s out for a play. A few weeks ago we were racing in 25 to 30 knots and recorded speeds of 27 knots downwind.... Trust me, we enjoyed ourselves :D

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I do concur that the larger boats are good fun and as I now have and are enjoying a Hurricane 5.9 which I think is actually better fun than the Capricorn I have as its a little less prone to nose diving ( the Shockwave I have sailed is certainly a water up the crossbeam without blinking such is its volume forward ) and has larger than the F18 fleets here in the UK at club level. But I'm also getting to the age where dealing with 185kgs on land is starting to where a little thin and I'm hankering back to the ease of the F16's where going solo is the best blast of the lot.

 

Can I ask a question Tornado_Alive, have you spent any time on the latest foilers ? I know you sail a lot of various boats but have you sailed one of the latest generation of true foiling cats ( and no I wouldn't put the Mk1 NAcra 17 in that vogue ). Also for the sake of the title of the thread, should we be ignoring anything to do with fleet racing and just talk about foiling in general ( that is if we can stop DL from chiming in with his pond toy at every minute )

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I am yet to foil however plan to change that in the future. Something I don't like seeing is watching good A sailors sit on shore debating weather to sail or not when it is blowing 20 and the waves start getting big. I understand they would be a handful and are expensive when they break. No doubt you could really hurt yourself too.

 

The boat I enjoyed sailing the most was the Big T however the class is now dead on our East Coast. The F18 fleet is very strong and too good not to be part off.

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I agree its time to start another thread regarding existing classes and their future. The F18 fleet may not have the numbers of the H16 but at least worldwide I would put money down that its on par or bigger than the Dart 18 and is currently larger than any other doublehanded spinnaker catamaran fleet. Its not going to die overnight with the introduction of new foiling boats.

 

Wayne did you see that the F16 class voted to increase their class minimum weight? http://wasserschach.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/boxrule-amendment-2016-ballotsheet.pdf, that sets the minimum weight in doublehanded configuration to 271lbs. Lighter than the F18 yes but not the 80kg delta you are quoting by any means. Under 60kg.

 

The A cat fleet has always been hesitant to sail in over 20kts of breeze, at least the U.S East Coast fleet has been, primarily as much of the class doesn't sail in breezy conditions regularly. Foiling hasn't changed that, though I believe the C-board/t-foil rudder last generation floater A-cat is less of a handful in breeze than the foilers, but that's just perception (caveat: I haven't sailed a foiling A yet).

 

The latest doublehanded foilers seriously re-consider sailing when the breeze is up over 20kts. Having sailed a c-board F20c, but a boat equipped with sliders and absolutely capable of flying in 13-14kts and running consistently in the 18kt range downwind, I can see how greater wind speeds and generally associated larger waves make this a tough and at times downright scary boat to sail!! As TA pointed out, F18's are already capable of +25kts, which is faster than pretty much everything else out there that isn't a Moth, A cat, Flying Phantom, Comanche or Groupama 3.

 

My point is there are better boats than the F18; the old Nacra 20, the Tornado, the F20c, the F20FCS, the Flying Phantom, etc. None have the numbers that the F18 class has. All are 30% more expensive new than a F18. The F16 is lighter but lacks the margin in breeze (I've raced plenty of them and they are downright scary in conditions we eat up on the F18). The racing and class are more important than the boat. See Hobie 16.

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When you now foil at 25 knots in 12 or 14 knots of breeze like you can on the A or even foil in 6 or 8 knots, you don't really need or want to sail in 25 or 30 knots anymore for thrills. I think that is the case for all the foiling cats at this stage, not just the A. I imagine the Phantom Essential will be similar there as well though it is not as powered up and so will likely have a higher wind top end.

 

Remember also that just as a regular cat, the A is flying a hull in much lower winds than the F18, so it makes sense it will give up earlier in heavy air.

 

I would think a cut down sail would be great on an A for heavy air, out of class, sailing and likely for other foilers as well. A friend did something like this a few years ago in Texas where they often get big breeze and says it is great. He calls the sail "the Gun" like a big longboard for big wave surfing and can comfortably sail in wind beyond class limits.

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When you now foil at 25 knots in 12 or 14 knots of breeze like you can on the A or even foil in 6 or 8 knots, you don't really need or want to sail in 25 or 30 knots anymore for thrills.

I don't want to sit on the beach in 25 knots..... I only race on Saturdays now (excluding regattas) and I don't want to have to wait another week to go for a sail because it is blowing over 20 knots or the waves are too big

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When you now foil at 25 knots in 12 or 14 knots of breeze like you can on the A or even foil in 6 or 8 knots, you don't really need or want to sail in 25 or 30 knots anymore for thrills.

I don't want to sit on the beach in 25 knots..... I only race on Saturdays now (excluding regattas) and I don't want to have to wait another week to go for a sail because it is blowing over 20 knots or the waves are too big

 

 

 

I guess you won't comment on the idea to buy a smaller sail then?

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I am yet to foil however plan to change that in the future. Something I don't like seeing is watching good A sailors sit on shore debating weather to sail or not when it is blowing 20 and the waves start getting big. I understand they would be a handful and are expensive when they break. No doubt you could really hurt yourself too.

I am not sure if you are referring to the recent regatta at McCrae, but the situation at the moment is a bit unusual and is leading to a debate about sailing in 20 knots plus. Currently in Australia, there are only 2 new Fiberfoam masts available. That focuses the mind, knowing that your season might be ruined if you break a mast. Darren Bundock has broken 2 this year. The strange thing is that it seems to me to be the top guys who are risking their masts more than the mid fleet sailors, because the crashes the top guys have seem different, maybe more violent or maybe they are simply pulling all the ropes harder. I think that f the conditions are 20 knots + at the nationals, the top guys will be more than willing to go out.

 

I don't want to sit on the beach in 25 knots..... I only race on Saturdays now (excluding regattas) and I don't want to have to wait another week to go for a sail because it is blowing over 20 knots or the waves are too big

 

You need to remember that A's have a notional maximum wind limit of 22 knots in their championship rules. For many of us mid fleet, mature sailors, that's more than enough. The young guns seem be happy to sail in more wind and often do. I suspect that the boats today are actually easier to sail in big breeze, because the nose diving tendencies of the past have gone. Now the most common capsize is rolling in to windward.

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Boat is designed to be a foiler or a class legal F-18. Trunks will accept a straight foil, rudders and remove wings and you will be class legal for F18 racing.

???? You Where do you read that on the Essentiel??? I think you confused comments on another project. The Essentiel hull is not F18 Class legal as it is epoxy / foam core built and will not accept straight boards.

.

Only way hull to be hull class legal is to be epoxy / wood core.

 

You need to read well articles before transcripting what you think you understood. An F18 Class legal hull with a convertible dagger case is a project we will do coming months with a known A-Class / F18 builder.

 

Cheers.

 

"In fact this project , the new Phantom 'Essentiel' is basically what we have in mind as plan B for the F18 Scorpion hull, and I even wrote a for the record document some months ago for the F18 Class WC, not on the foiling per se, but on the ability to fit a 4pt foiling boards setup on a convertible dagger case a la Nacra 15 and epoxy hulls (no carbon) construction to add structural support and longer life and the alternative to use the same platform in floating F18 legal racing mode and foil for fun."

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Hi A Class Sailor....

 

These are my observations at many club races and regattas over the years. As you mentioned, sailors are considering what a breakage would mean to their season. I am sure the top guys would race in 20 plus knots if it is a Nationals or Worlds however may not want to risk it for less important races.

 

When I get an A and start learning to foil, my limit may be 15 knots or less. This is something I will need to consider, perhaps more early morning training before the sea breeze strengthens. Waves where I sail would also be a consideration as they can exceed 2 meters and be very short and sharp.

 

Right now, I would race my F18 in 25 knots at a club race without being concerned about breakage ruining my season. That is the difference between the 2 classes in this regard.

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Below is a video of the Matakana Classic in Taurnaga New Zealand.

We started in 15 knots, and it quickly increased to over 30 knots, before dropping back down to a more manageable level.

The hardest thing was trying to stay on the boat, as the waves were against the current causing them to be short and steep.

I have since adjusted my trapeze lines to allow more upward adjustment.

 

The only reason we carried on was we were too afraid to turn around.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s37cWpsf2z8&t=16s

 

The biggest challenge was controlling the power and for this the traveller is your friend.

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in big short 2 meter waves and wind the A will get airborne even when not foiling over the peaks to some degree but that doesn't seem to stop anyone. In Italy at the Worlds we sailed a race with waves big enough to occasionally break over the boats when parked which I imagine would qualify as big to most people. There is some good video of that race online as well.

 

All that said, I don't think anyone who sails the F18 and A-Class would say the A is a better ocean going heavy air boat. Just having a crew is a real asset for safety when sailing offshore alone.

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Everybody here seems to think that going out in 25knots of wind is normal ( I reckon that's beer and bar talk extreme ), it aint and its scary and its dangerous, at our club racing anything above 20 knots immediately kills off 1/2 the participants or more, from worries of kit damage to simply them not feeling up to the task, remember cat sailors in general are an ageing bunch and injuries takes weeks to heel, rather than days when we were young, self preservation is an interesting thing to study.

 

Not to say that some of us do go out in the 20's to 30's, yes a smaller sail would help, yes a very experienced crew would desirable, but its very noticeable those who do brave the stronger conditions, are the first to pack up their boats when the winds are less than 8 knots. And that's what I'm trying to get across, there is a wind band that your boat will sail well in and you feel comfortable in. I would wage that is probably no than 15 knots of a wind band on average for the Club sailor. I can think of the majority of my clubs cat sailors who would fit into that category, from the Nacra 20 who won't race unless its above 8 knots as they feel they do badly and typically get beaten over the water in under 12 knots, to the solo F16 sailor who won't sail above 18 knots as his boat becomes too much of a handful and he does badly under handicap, that same boat wins everything when its under 10 knots.

 

Its horses for courses lads, but with the foilers now beginning to have take off speeds of about 8 knots or less in some cases, then if we take the 15 knot band, then low 20's is their upper limit. But the foilers have one addictive thing about them, once airbourne they are faster than wind speed right across their favorable wind band, which means that they unlike the sea huggers are having fast sailing right across their wind band in more desirable sea and wind conditions. Now that's fast safe fun on steroids.

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F18s have and will race in 25. At our last nationals we saw gust up to 30. The first 3 months of our season has been a bit rough with front after front coming through on race days. Many weekends saw 35 to 45 knots keeping us on shore. In 3 months we raced 3 times and one of them days was 25 to 30 knots.

 

Granted, this season has been unusually strong however it is common for us to see sea breezes exceeding 20knots in the afternoon with large waves. We will also get out and race in 5 knots and under.... I am quickest in these conditions dispite loving my big breeze sailing.

 

The more you restrict yourself to a certain wind range..... The less you sail.

 

That's not beer or bar talk.

 

30+ knots on the bay, on my old T

 

ALIVESurfsmall.jpg

 

ALIVESurf2.jpg

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Boat is designed to be a foiler or a class legal F-18. Trunks will accept a straight foil, rudders and remove wings and you will be class legal for F18 racing.

???? You Where do you read that on the Essentiel??? I think you confused comments on another project. The Essentiel hull is not F18 Class legal as it is epoxy / foam core built and will not accept straight boards.

.

Only way hull to be hull class legal is to be epoxy / wood core.

 

You need to read well articles before transcripting what you think you understood. An F18 Class legal hull with a convertible dagger case is a project we will do coming months with a known A-Class / F18 builder.

 

Cheers.

 

"In fact this project , the new Phantom 'Essentiel' is basically what we have in mind as plan B for the F18 Scorpion hull, and I even wrote a for the record document some months ago for the F18 Class WC, not on the foiling per se, but on the ability to fit a 4pt foiling boards setup on a convertible dagger case a la Nacra 15 and epoxy hulls (no carbon) construction to add structural support and longer life and the alternative to use the same platform in floating F18 legal racing mode and foil for fun."

 

 

The F18 Scorpion = Exploder F18. Completely different project, and there are a couple of notes I'll add to that:

 

1) Epoxy/foam construction is currently not class legal in the F18, so this strategy won't work.

 

2) Epoxy won't add much, if anything to the strength of the build. Perhaps a little bit of longevity, but its the more exotic fibers (S-2 glass, carbon) that are doing the heavy lifting on the foiling boats. Good vinylester is as good as epoxy and in some cases better. I've argued this one a fair bit with Martin and need to put the curve together, but the reality is a carbon/vinylester hull retains its stiffness far longer and stays on a much flatter slope on a S-N curve than Vinylester/E-glass. Vinylester/S-2 glass falls somewhere in the middle. Core material also matters, nomex honeycomb>balsa>foam, though it really depends on the foam used and a host of factors (foam can be better than balsa). You get what you pay for in boat construction.

 

F18 vs. A-cat wind limits, the mast definitely is the largest concern. There are some pretty big deltas there, cost wise the tubes are about the same, but at least IME the Infusion aluminum masts are pretty bomb proof-the Nacra 17 sailors tend to agree, some of whom would take the aluminum rig over the carbon rig simply for its durability and ability to be pushed hard in big breeze with no concern of breakage if you wipe out hard! The other deltas are in how the masts are assembled, the Infusion and C2 rigs are completely sealed, the A cat rig, well, not so much (though I'm not sure if there are internal bulkheads where the slots for the diamond wires and shrouds exist, but I doubt it). Its pretty clear to me that the mast can fill with water, turtle the boat and end your day if you aren't quick in righting the boat on the A! In the U.S we are lucky to have a U.S based supplier of A-cat rigs, and the rigs have been certainly improved since the first bendy rigs came out, but I suspect the top guys are running higher and higher cunnigham tensions in breeze downwind, leading to higher and higher speeds with bigger wipeouts and higher compression forces pre-loading the mast on impact = snap. Same thing happened on the 17 rigs, nothing new under the sun, carbon is a wonderful material but when it goes it goes.

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You need to remember that 25 knots Australian is rather different from 25 knot British........

 

No, there aren't 2 different scales and I haven't gone made. it's all about air density. Changes in air density mean that the available power from the wind can vary by up to 1.5 times (IIRC) depending on density. in the UK, colder, wetter air means that for the same wind strength, the effect is like sailing in significantly more wind.

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Boat is designed to be a foiler or a class legal F-18. Trunks will accept a straight foil, rudders and remove wings and you will be class legal for F18 racing.

???? You Where do you read that on the Essentiel??? I think you confused comments on another project. The Essentiel hull is not F18 Class legal as it is epoxy / foam core built and will not accept straight boards.

.

Only way hull to be hull class legal is to be epoxy / wood core.

 

You need to read well articles before transcripting what you think you understood. An F18 Class legal hull with a convertible dagger case is a project we will do coming months with a known A-Class / F18 builder.

 

Cheers.

 

"In fact this project , the new Phantom 'Essentiel' is basically what we have in mind as plan B for the F18 Scorpion hull, and I even wrote a for the record document some months ago for the F18 Class WC, not on the foiling per se, but on the ability to fit a 4pt foiling boards setup on a convertible dagger case a la Nacra 15 and epoxy hulls (no carbon) construction to add structural support and longer life and the alternative to use the same platform in floating F18 legal racing mode and foil for fun."

 

 

.... Those are the editor's note before the actual Q&A with Alex Udin on the Essentiel......

 

F18 'Scorpion' is the name for the 'F18 Open Project' platform. The Exploder F18 is built over the actual F18 OP / 'Scorpion' hull cad.

 

Phantom Essentiel hulls are not and wont be F18 Class legal.

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Team_GBR,

 

That argument can be made for any location as power is effectively proportional to dynamic pressure, which in turn is 1/2*rho*v^2, where rho is dependent on temperature and altitude primarily. I am sure there are places in Australia where the air temperature and altitude (sea level is generally constant) match those in the U.K when it is blowing 25kts in both places.

 

I think the issue really relates to time in boat in breeze.

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k2mav stated what I meant to above, that the Scorpion F18 = Exploder F18, which is in no way related to the Phantom Essential.

 

Any essentials ordered for the U.S market??

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In South Australia generally if the wind is blowing from the South it has more power than if it's coming from the North, I'm guessing that it has a bit to do with moisture in the air making it denser but I could be wrong. 25kt Northerly can be compared to around a 20kt Southerly

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In South Australia generally if the wind is blowing from the South it has more power than if it's coming from the North, I'm guessing that it has a bit to do with moisture in the air making it denser but I could be wrong. 25kt Northerly can be compared to around a 20kt Southerly

 

other things constant.., humid air is less dense than dry air

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At 32 °C, 0 ft altitude, 50% relative humidity, air has a density of 1.147 kg/m3

 

At 16 °C, 0 ft altitude, 50% relative humidity, air has a density of 1.217 kg/m3

 

That's roughly 6% higher density for a 50% decrease in air temperature. Its really not much, but I think the phenomena is more psychological than anything else. Not that psychological issues aren't real, I won't argue its tougher to sail in 40 °F, 25 kts and rain than in 80 °F, 25 kts and sun, though the latter in eastern Caribbean waves on a short boat can still be challenging!!

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sure, cold air is more dense than warm air.

 

but the more water vapor there is in the air (in other words, the more humid it is) the less dense the air will be

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I don't understand the physics but I've been hit by whirly whirlys with just a fair size boat shake but the only time I have been hit by a whirly, whirly that was sucking water it flattened us in one second and the next week the sidestay that took that impact of the mast hitting the water broke the next week

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I don't understand the physics but I've been hit by whirly whirlys with just a fair size boat shake but the only time I have been hit by a whirly, whirly that was sucking water it flattened us in one second and the next week the sidestay that took that impact of the mast hitting the water broke the next week

 

mad, what exactly is a whirly whirly?

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sounds like a water spout or something similar

 

the whirly thing might have contained _liquid_ water...

 

liquid water is denser than air, and if your boat got it by a large quantity of liquid water.., it could definitley do damage

 

generally, air does not contain liquid water, unless it's raining

 

so, generally, humid air does not have liquid water - it has water vapor. water vapor is less dense than air, so humid air is less dense than dry air

 

there is some liquid water in the air: low clouds,and fog for example are actually tiny droplets of liquid water. High clouds are ice particles.

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I was sailing once and it was hailing..... Felt like there was a bit more pressure in the sails :D

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Whirly whirly is just spinning air like a tornado shape but tiny, we have them all the time here, when they pass you on land you just get hit by some dust and leaves, doesn't push you off your balance or anything, but on water they suck you toward it, so you steer away from it but that means when it gets to you, your side on and you get a slap down. By sucking water I mean you can see water elevated at the bottom but not in the whirly whirly so not a water spout or anything dramatic. Done a lot of sailing in rain and hail as well and I think rain elevates the power of the wind so the knots may only be 15 but the sailing can be pretty exciting

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Whirly whirly is just spinning air like a tornado shape but tiny, we have them all the time here, when they pass you on land you just get hit by some dust and leaves, doesn't push you off your balance or anything, but on water they suck you toward it, so you steer away from it but that means when it gets to you, your side on and you get a slap down. By sucking water I mean you can see water elevated at the bottom but not in the whirly whirly so not a water spout or anything dramatic. Done a lot of sailing in rain and hail as well and I think rain elevates the power of the wind so the knots may only be 15 but the sailing can be pretty exciting

 

one effect of rain is that it mixes air from higher atmospheric levels down to lower levels.., and because the wind is stronger up higher.., when this air mixes down, it gets windier near the surface. this can reduce the difference in windspeed between the top of your mast (where the anemometer is) and the surface, so you have a greater force on the sails for the same masthead wind speed

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Went for a sail on my old Capricorn offshore of Botany Bay (Sydney). Coming back under kite riding the swell in through the heads, we kept tracking past the airport. As a plane flew over, still quite high, the wing vortex touched down and created a water spout. We sailed into it and were slapped down with some force.

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Essentiel:

 

"As opposed to its ‘big’ brother Flying Phantom Elite, the Flying Phantom Essentiel doesn’t aim at high level competition like the FP Series. It is a versatile catamaran, made for leisure sailing as well as local beach cat regattas. The Essentiel flies in a wind range from 5 to 25 knots and can reach 20-25 knots of speed in 10 knots of wind. Thrill guaranteed !"

 

New vid:

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Boat looks good. Looks like they need to beef up the wing frames... starting to sag compared to the earlier videos.

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