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The UFO is not Steve Clark's first rodeo. He knows how to do this.

 

How many successful _one-design_ classes has he designed and launched?

http://www.forbes.com/2002/07/12/0712sailing.html

 

In terms of launch of a one design dinghy, you might recall the Vanguard 15 that steve worked with designer Bob Ames and had some success in launching.

In fact I'm struggling to think of any successful adult one design mono hull dinghy launched in the US since then.

 

Perhaps Steve (if he rejoins the thread) can remind me who it was who once told me:

"It is easier to start a new university college than launch a new one design.....and probably costs less as well"

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In fact I'm struggling to think of any successful adult one design mono hull dinghy launched in the US since then.

The Aero seems to be building fleets.

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Midship wand(s) on a Moth:

 

pix by Thierry Martinez-

 

rati8o.jpg

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Midship wand(s) on a Moth:

 

pix by Thierry Martinez-

 

rati8o.jpg

 

An early Prowler from about 10 years ago, other discarded obsolete ideas include end boom sheeting. Never seen this type of double wand used in racing. In 2005 foiling moth pioneers John Illet, Garth Illet and Brett Burville tried the trailing edge wands for a couple of days at the Black Rock worlds before reverting to bow wands. Foil mounted wands have not been seen since in the moth class. John was also the first I know of with a bowsprit wand, used it at the Torbole Worlds in 2008.

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By the way the picture above is of Jean Pierre Ziegart-from an 8 year old thread: ...... "the midship [wand] has been adopted experimentally by Jean Pierre Ziegart who sailed to a 14th out of 36 boats in the Velocitec Speed Challenge and to 31st out of about 95 boats at the UK Moth Worlds."

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By the way the picture above is of Jean Pierre Ziegart-from an 8 year old thread: ...... "the midship [wand] has been adopted experimentally by Jean Pierre Ziegart who sailed to a 14th out of 36 boats in the Velocitec Speed Challenge and to 31st out of about 95 boats at the UK Moth Worlds."

Why do you always miss the bit about him reverting to a bow mounted wand because it was better?

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The amusing thing about Doug posting photos of old Moth configs is that its precisely because all these different options have been tried and found inferior that the Mothies are convinced the bow wand is superior.

 

The trailing wand might be good enough for the bigger one design, and performance/handling disadvantages be outweighed by advantages of other factors: who knows, and for sure every design is a compromise. Its a funny thing though how reluctant both rabid enthusiasts and PR people are to say "Well, nothing's ever perfect, we've thought long and hard about this and we think this is the best compromise."

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Probably the same as people who say foiling is the way forward in sailing for everyone.

 

For a lot of people and clubs foiling is not the way forward and is not practical. Foiling, in my view, will be a niche part of sailing.

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Probably the same as people who say foiling is the way forward in sailing for everyone.

 

For a lot of people and clubs foiling is not the way forward and is not practical. Foiling, in my view, will be a niche part of sailing.

A Moth joins our handicap dinghy fleet each weekend. He waits till we all start then charges around the course keeping well clear and usually does one or two extra laps waiting for us to finish. He looks to be having fun. We enjoy seeing him swishing past and are in awe of his ability. Just wish I was young enough and fit enough and agile enough to be foiling myself.

 

I will definitely one day have a trial on the F101 when I get a chance as I might just be able to keep it upright.

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Excellent comment by Basiliscus in answer to a question by "robg" in the Foiler Control and Stability thread in multihulls:

 

You're right that the pitch attitude is referenced to the horizontal. But the trajectory of a foiler, like an airplane, has a third dimension.

 

The force on the foil depends on the angle of attack, which is referenced to the velocity vector, not the horizontal. If the velocity vector is horizontal, then the pitch attitude and angle of attack are the same (when the boat is sailed with level heel). But if the velocity vector is pointed up or down, then for the same angle of attack the pitch attitude will also be more up or down.

 

Another example is a boat that maintains the same pitch attitude, but loses speed. The angle of attack has to increase to maintain the same lift (lift = weight at near steady-state conditions). The boat starts to sink down, resulting in the velocity vector pointing downward and the angle of attack increases because of the change in the velocity vector instead of a change in the pitch attitude.

 

You can get a similar effect with the controls. Say you used the stern foil to maintain pitch attitude and you made a step increase in the main foil flap deflection. The increase in lift from the flap will accelerate the boat upwards, and very quickly the new trajectory will reduce the angle of attack and bring the lift back into equilibrium as the boat continues to rise at a steady rate. In all these cases, vertical direction of the velocity vector (flight path angle) summed with the angle of attack (angle between the velocity vector and the reference line) equals the pitch attitude (angle between the reference line and the horizontal).

 

What the sailor wants is for the trajectory to be level. The lift on the foil depends on both the flap and the angle of attack, and the boat has to find the combination of flap angle and pitch attitude that brings the lift into equilibrium with a level trajectory. The pitch attitude and the flying height don't respond at the same time to the flap control. A designer has the option of exploiting the phase difference between pitch and heave at the expense of more complexity in the control system, due to having to link a forward mounted wand to the flap on the foil.

 

Or the designer can opt for a mechanically simpler arrangement that doesn't try to feed back pitch attitude to the flap. In that case, maybe the designer adds area to the stern foil to increase the pitch stability and damping. The wetted area will be higher, increasing the drag, but for a one-design the simplicity may be worth the tradeoff. There's no single way, or even one best way, to design the control system because the requirements for each boat are different. That's why design is an art.

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Or the designer can opt for a mechanically simpler arrangement that doesn't try to feed back pitch attitude to the flap. In that case, maybe the designer adds area to the stern foil to increase the pitch stability and damping. The wetted area will be higher, increasing the drag, but for a one-design the simplicity may be worth the tradeoff. There's no single way, or even one best way, to design the control system because the requirements for each boat are different. That's why design is an art.

 

In short, as everybody but you seems to realise, a midships wand might be good for a one design where ultimate speed isn't important, but it is a sub optimal system because of the other compromises that need to be made

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By the way the picture above is of Jean Pierre Ziegart-from an 8 year old thread: ...... "the midship [wand] has been adopted experimentally by Jean Pierre Ziegart who sailed to a 14th out of 36 boats in the Velocitec Speed Challenge and to 31st out of about 95 boats at the UK Moth Worlds."

 

 

Holy shit Doug just drop it. It's ok to be wrong.

 

If a midship want was better everyone would be running it, and I wouldn't be using up my weekends inhaling carbon and epoxy building a new wand and bowsprit.

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This looks like a non-argument ... 101 is a one-design and ultimate speed never was the key objective. ALL classes are sets of compromises.

 

You could just as easily point out its weight to suggest it is possibly 'sub-optimal' and half a dozen other issues. But I'd be pretty certain it is plenty fast enough for its target market and pretty damn fast in absolute terms as well. If it is also simple and relatively forgiving that cannot be a bad thing. It may be ideal for those who currently regard the Moth as not on their radar at all.

 

For that matter I'm sure some here could point to the Moth itself and suggest 'sub-optimal' compromises have had to be made there as well - to keep within its class rules. For example the 11 foot limit which has been twisted over the years and eerm .... perhaps 'adjusted' in less than a few subtle ways - rudder gantries and other extensions etc over the bows for instance. Are these admissions that the 11 foot idea was 'sub-optimal' in the first place ? Would it matter in the slightest anyway ?

 

Foiling itself is very much a small minority interest at the moment. If it is to grow long term beyond relative token numbers it needs for additonal foiling classes to become established, prosper, and attract new blood. Some foilers and 'wantabe' foilers themselves can appear on this forum and others to almost be their own worst enemies !! :wacko: Good luck to all of them would be my own take ....

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By the way the picture above is of Jean Pierre Ziegart-from an 8 year old thread: ...... "the midship [wand] has been adopted experimentally by Jean Pierre Ziegart who sailed to a 14th out of 36 boats in the Velocitec Speed Challenge and to 31st out of about 95 boats at the UK Moth Worlds."

 

 

Holy shit Doug just drop it. It's ok to be wrong.

 

If a midship want was better everyone would be running it, and I wouldn't be using up my weekends inhaling carbon and epoxy building a new wand and bowsprit.

 

 

I'm not wrong- read what Tom said above. I'm not saying the forward wand is "bad" -just not suitable for every foiler. The midship wand works well on a number of boats and even has distinct advantages but is also not suitable for every foiler. It's a matter of design and compromise.

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The moth guys are here because the F101 people claimed their control system is better. We know its not. Fact.

 

Its not about speed its about control. Speed might not matter for a OD class, but control matters for people learning to foil. The moth class has learnt that you can not get speed with first having control. Good control adds confidence to go fast. Its only when waves get big enough to slow most boats that moths start getting tricky.

 

The F101 is a big heavy boat by moth standards and when it crashes it will be violent, potentially more dangerous than a moth because of the extra mass, larger things to hit etc. It will crash more often in the same conditions than a moth because its control system is inferior.

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The moth guys are here because the F101 people claimed their control system is better. We know its not. Fact. Agreed, but maybe we shouldn't get quite so upset by marketing hype.

 

The F101 is a big heavy boat by moth standards and when it crashes it will be violent, potentially more dangerous than a moth because of the extra mass, larger things to hit etc. It will crash more often in the same conditions than a moth because its control system is inferior.

This is incorrect. Lighter leads to more violent crashes. We have found this with the A Class which is now hitting 26-28 knots in a straight line (15 knots of breeze). The crashes at that speed are far less violent than with a moth (confirmed by those who own or have sailed both). the reason is inertia. Because of the weight of the A, things happen slower than on the moth. The only thing that makes the more "dangerous" is the trapeze. If you lose your footing and swing forward, you really can hurt yourself when you hit the side of the boat. People are fitting 'suicide lines" to hold them at the back of the boat.

 

I believe there isn't enough mention of how weight and inertia dampen pitching and this allows boats to foil acceptably with less than ideal foil controls. The F101 is heavy compared with a moth and it is also helped by its length. This probably means it can get away with the wand system it has and the advantages it brings outweigh the negatives.

 

It's a shame that Doug takes everything he reads as being fact, so long as it supports his views. I am told there is a long history of this, even to the point that he will accuse people of lying if they contradict something that was attributed to them somewhere else. It doesn't make for constructive conversations.

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The moth guys are here because the F101 people claimed their control system is better. We know its not. Fact. Agreed, but maybe we shouldn't get quite so upset by marketing hype.

 

The F101 is a big heavy boat by moth standards and when it crashes it will be violent, potentially more dangerous than a moth because of the extra mass, larger things to hit etc. It will crash more often in the same conditions than a moth because its control system is inferior.

This is incorrect. Lighter leads to more violent crashes. We have found this with the A Class which is now hitting 26-28 knots in a straight line (15 knots of breeze). The crashes at that speed are far less violent than with a moth (confirmed by those who own or have sailed both). the reason is inertia. Because of the weight of the A, things happen slower than on the moth. The only thing that makes the more "dangerous" is the trapeze. If you lose your footing and swing forward, you really can hurt yourself when you hit the side of the boat. People are fitting 'suicide lines" to hold them at the back of the boat.

 

I believe there isn't enough mention of how weight and inertia dampen pitching and this allows boats to foil acceptably with less than ideal foil controls. The F101 is heavy compared with a moth and it is also helped by its length. This probably means it can get away with the wand system it has and the advantages it brings outweigh the negatives.

 

It's a shame that Doug takes everything he reads as being fact, so long as it supports his views. I am told there is a long history of this, even to the point that he will accuse people of lying if they contradict something that was attributed to them somewhere else. It doesn't make for constructive conversations.

My bought experiment was thinking along these lines. Length will lessen the need for instantaneous pitch control and inertia will slow things down a bit. It will still be spectacular ventilating the foil out the back of a big wave....

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In fact I'm struggling to think of any successful adult one design mono hull dinghy launched in the US since then.

The Aero seems to be building fleets.

 

In the USA ?

I truly hope it is as successful as the Vanguard 15 and reaches the top ten in terms of class size. It looks like a great little boat. When Steve was running Vanguard sailboats I recall reading one year that three of the top ten OD classes in terms of NAs participation were built and promoted by Vanguard. We are lucky to have hi jump on our threads when he has something interesting to say.

 

Steve isnt perfect and he is not always interesting .....I vividly remember a "short little talk" that he gave over dinner one evening on the design of C class cats.....we had all been racing all day and drinking beer all evening and somewhere around the 45 minute mark when the umpteenth diagram went up on the projector I nearly fell asleep face first into the mashed potato.

 

But he is always passionate and I think he has a fairly realistic apprehension of the challenges of launching new classes and how to do it..

 

The foil position debate....is sending faces into the potatoes. Can we please hear something a bit more interesting about the F101.....like for example where are the winter demos happening? Miami? Palma?

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Control feedback and effects can vary enormously from structure to structure and are not necessarily easy to totally generalise about. As has been suggested already while there are some general principles to consider the real world is usually much more complex. One structure may has tendancies where control oscillations can quickly arise and increase in frequency / magnitude while others dampen things down just as quickly. Proportional only control feedbacks have obvious limitations and full P+I or even PID is not fully practical without today a bit of processor power and a bit more sensing that possible with just a simple 'wand'. So not very usable with small boats unless a lot more 'technology' was introduced / permitted ! So if your structure itself is more 'stable' (tolerant) across the range of conditons life can be easier allround.

 

I'm sure todays Moth setup is a long way towards optimum after the huge amount of practical experience there .. for the Moth. It may even be optimum on some other structures as well. The question though is whether it is as needed or essential to provide good or appropriate control with all other structures with their very different characteristics and behaviours. It might simply not be a question of 'either/or' at all

 

Camber inducers or 'not' ?..... rotating masts or .not' ? (or maybe over-rotating ones ?).... daggerboards or centreboards ? ... fully battened or 'semi' fully-battened ? One hull or two ? (or even 3 !) The list is seemingly endless. The point is that all these are choices or options that do 'work' with good application.....

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I'm sure todays Moth setup is a long way towards optimum after the huge amount of practical experience there .. for the Moth. It may even be optimum on some other structures as well. The question though is whether it is as needed or essential to provide good or appropriate control with all other structures with their very different characteristics and behaviours. It might simply not be a question of 'either/or' at all

 

The probability of the trailing wand being a superior control solution for the F101 is so incredibly low that it isn't even worth considering. It's just a big Moth, all of the configuration is pretty much the same, just scaled up. If we were talking about a Catamaran or any other reference with a proven system that works better, it's worth talking about - but not this.

 

A better control system makes a foiling boat easier to sail. Someone who's never sailed a Moth before would find a modern racing Mach2/Exocet/etc with the most up to day control system worlds easier to sail than a Moth from 8 years ago.

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If we were talking about a Catamaran or any other reference with a proven system that works better, it's worth talking about - but not this.

 

But then again we are of course .... and even proven variants of same from the same designers .. on foiling cats. Additional complexity is only usually worth employing in engineering terms if it is needed, the rest of the time of course the optimum design route is inevitably the 'KISS' one.

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Doesn't seem to have much of a problem with the chop in the first video.

Any boat that has issues sailing in the "chop" of Mal Menor is going to be in real trouble in many other venues. i wouldn't take a video shot there as evidence of anything to do with performance in chop, waves etc. (I base this on sailing there a lot).

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The boat looks very good and very stable-great shot with two people aboard!

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I've been following the F101 since first launch and today had the chance to sail on it.

First I really must complement the designers and builders for what is a really well engineered product, the quality is something way beyond what you can normally see on some of the production beach cats, and although it is quite a complex design and high component count, everything seems to have a purpose and designed for that purpose.

All to often with the foiling A's there's just a mad nest of ropes and pulleys operating foils and AOA and the likes. On the F101, one foil adjusted by a simple " pull the rope " system " and an adjustable rudder foil via the tiller AKA Moth style just makes it all simple. No forward wand and all its linkages, but a simplified wand on the back of the dagger board and T foil, it may not be the ultimate for performance ( that could be debated ) but makes the launch and fit out as practical as you can get. The builders endlessly talk about making a Foiler as uncomplicated as possible, as for most the work load of first sailing these boats is high and to get people early foiling, the boat must do the work. They have set a pretty high bar here and although there's lots of bits and pieces to adjust and finesse, once set, its set and forget. Even the design and placement of the Ama's have been set as an attempt to promote an early indicator of where and how the boat should be for it to launch up onto the foil. Everything on the boat is designed to be pragmatic about getting the job done in the least hassle at minimum cost in work load to the skipper.

The designers spoke at great length that as yet the F101 is not a race boat ( its too early in its learning curve about how best to utilise the design ), but a pleasure boat, set up for early foiling and the exhilaration of foiling is what its job is. But to me a boat has to be more than the pleasure of just foiling. In an endeavor to get more people  foil racing, they are proposing that F101 races should be designed around the boat and those who sail it ( they call it " The Tribe " ), that may not be conventional racing per-see but downwind slalom races, odd courses such as star or compass point style where competitors try to reach certain points which are becoming increasingly harder to achieve. This may not be conventional but it may well be something that we should all maybe should think as a way to get more people sailing.

Probably for me the biggest downer was the rig, its a dingy rig, sort of a cross between a 49er and moth, its very very good looking and everything seems to work well, but its a dinghy rig and I know nothing about dinghy rigs. Wheres the rotating rig with lots of down haul and loads of main sheet. To sit with the tiller across your lap pulling a tiny 5mm line through your rear hand by the forward hand just like a laser, will have to be learnt. Line loads are just ridiculously light and getting used to locking off the Code 0 ( I think we should really just be saying big jib here as its in all intents and purposes its an over size jib ) , this is more dinghy handling than catamaran handling.

The other biggest difference to us cat sailors is that you always feel as though you are on the wrong side of the boat with the rig always feeling like its about to come over on you. But once you get used to its stability once it has flip flopped over onto its Ama's and understand that once over on the Ama, there is loads of stability, the boat is actually quite easy to not get wet in. My own small Tri is set up to progressively use the RM of the lee Ama as any heel goes on but with the F101's Amas set so high that you end up feeling like you are sailing on a knife edge with the catch all of the Amas when things go wrong,  the Ama saves your day. Why the high Amas, look up Veel Heel and you can understand why the makers are saying the performance is better than a Wasp and getting up towards a full on Moth. 

Well how does it sail. Sadly for me once again the wind gods were against me and the forecast of 4 - 6 knots was what I got, hence all the flip flopping and flailing about that I seemed to do. Everything was so marginal that getting any real feel of its true potential was a dream on one hand and an impossible task on the other. But I always say that the best boats are the ones that can be sailed in the lightest winds. Here the F101 is about as good if not better than my cats and could be sailed around low rider style at speeds that impressed me even with those foils below. Is it 49er dinghy speeds, probably not, but once you spent a bit of time in the boat, you could balance the boat out on the single centre hull and go upwind and down at will, I have to say for having so much appendage down on such a light wind day, this is a really slippery hull. The makers have already a set of caps to replace the foils if you so desire but to be honest how many of you would sail in sub 6 knot winds.

Did we get foiling at all, there were two of us trialing the boat today, both just under or around 90 kilos and yup in one tiny zephyr of a puff, my fellow sailor was up and off, almost to his horror of what do I now do and about 50 metres on, there was inevitable drop in wind and splash down. This was such a frustrating day in some ways as the wind was there but just not quite enough. I think though that having seen how easy it was for my fellow sailor to get up onto the foils once the wind set in, even at 6 knots of wind, a seasoned sailor familiar with the boat may well have been foiling or there abouts.

In talking to the makers, who I can only highly recommend as being true enthusiasts and gentlemen dedicated to sailing, speeds are already high with regular water speeds up around 17 knots and already a 27 knot burst being recorded, but they did emphasize they are not really interested in speed, that's pure moth territory, but more to just getting more people foiling easily.

Over all impressions, really really good quality boat, loads of potential, but of course I will need another invite to really see the true potential ( hint hint hint ). Thanks Foilingworld to the introduction to the F101. 

 

 
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