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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Zonker

Capsized 57' Catamaran rescued

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I am asking this just to learn more about weather. I am not trying to cut down the crew. Is there more risk at this time to leave from above 40N with cold fronts moving over so frequently. I asked a weather guy about this. His response was being in an area between 30 - 50 degrees with a supply of warm water with a cold front moving over is not wise at this time of year. The air mass is just too unstable. His suggestion was to be south earlier in the fall. Here is a synoptic chart for the 17th.

http://www.chesneaumarineweather.com/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php?action=lg_image_request&file=atlantic/2016-11/AtlanticSA-2016-11-17-1200.gif

 

What are peoples thoughts? I am curious to hear from people that make this trip about their thought on time of season And what they look for on a weather chart to make the decision to set out. Is the idea that you leave right after the cold front passes over and make as much distance as possible.

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One thing I'll say, "modern" radars are horrible at seeing squalls. I know the B&G in particular essentially can't see a squall. The older analog ones are much better.

 

That's not to say that that was a contributing factor, I don't know the particulars, but i can see how you could get caught with your pants down.

 

Fingers crossed for a safe recovery of the vessel and that everyone is ok.

Ships have S and X band for that reason, one cant see through rain one can

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forget the main sheet what if a huge gust got under the bow and just blew it over backwards when it was going slow over a wave?

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IMO there's a lot of wisdom to be gained from all the opinions above, though not all of it necessarily applies to the majority of multi-hulls, the majority of the time, nor does it apply (from what I understand, without inside knowledge) to the Leopard incident.

 

The 'anti-self tailing/cam cleat only' crowd has a great point - WHEN when the boat is being raced and/or pushed very hard. But the reality is that most performance multihulls spend most of their offshore passages (non-racing/deliveries) significantly underpowered, sailing at 75%-85% of their potential, which makes most of these 'hard and fast rules' about cam cleats and all a moot point.

 

On Gunboats, it seems you spend spend most of our time offshore trying to slow down, rather than speed up (except in very light wind) and have never been so powered up that we felt like capsize or even flying a hull was anywhere near a possibility. It would take double or more the apparent wind to bring us to the point of 'sheet in hand' sort of sailing, and if we got there, we would decide we were pushing unnecessarily hard for being on a delivery passage, and subsequently reduce sail. This is backed up by the fact that all of my other multi-hull captain/friends tend to average 250-300 mile days on delivery, which as you know is well slower than potential.

 

If you are sailing hard enough that you're concerned about a 25% sudden increase increase in velocity, sure - skip the self-tailer and turn the autopilot off. OR just reduce sail and slow the boat down. Sounds like that's what happened on Leopard. If you're so underpowered that you're only making ~7 knots on a performance cat, then chances are that a wind event strong/sudden enough to capsize you won't be avoided with any sheet-management system, be it an 'Upside-Up' type system, or a cam-cleat+manual steering tactic.

 

But who knows - never met a sailor yet who's seen everything there is to see at sea..

Absolutely agree with your comments above. The number suggest Leopard saw something like a 3X increase in wind speed (25 knots to the about 75 knots it would take to put them over with the stated sail combination - if my math is correct). The one bit I don't know nearly enough about is what the upside up system can and can't handle... but the theory that it might have been able to deal with it (a safety redundancy) is interesting enough that I want to learn more as we are looking at going back to an offshore cruising performance cat.

 

The other thought that occurs is that as much as I hate hydraulics and want to keep the new boat simple as possible, hydraulics are maybe unique (?) in that "dump" buttons could be located in multiple areas of the boat.

 

So much to learn from when we last did this so many decades ago.

 

 

Tis true - some of the GBs offer as many as 6 trim stations which house both 'Main In & Main Out' control buttons. These can be found on either side of the interior helm, on either side of the forward cockpit, plus one next to each of the aft-mounted winches (near the transom - but not found on all GB's). In addition, there are two very large/visible/accessible 'DUMP' buttons that will blow the ram in an emergency situation.

 

Pros:

-very convenient for trimming from any position around the boat

 

-Less risk of someone mishandling the mainsheet - ie opening the wrong clutch or unwrapping the wrong winch in a busy cockpit

 

-Since the load is massive on the main, there is a safety factor in not having to handle that line manually. Not so critical for pro crew maybe, but if you're pitching these things to owner/operators...

 

Cons:

 

-I'm still not entirely comfortable with relying on a Hydraulic system to control my mainsheet - especially on a performance cat for obvious reasons. There's something to say about having a manual winch and line in front of you

 

-The ease and trim are a bit slow - certainly slower than the average winch would be

 

-The 15' hydraulic ram & block add a tremendous amount of weight and complexity inside the boom, and often make life difficult when trying to manipulate reefing lines, outhauls, etc through the cavity

 

-I've never had to use the emergency dump button, but imagine that the release might be violent enough to tear the mainsail as it flogged into the spreaders. With a mainsheet on a winch, you could dump very quickly whilst still maintaining enough control to lock it when you feel the power spill (hopefully before blowing up your mainsail, which would be its own nightmare to recover on a boat like that)

 

-There has been one report of in-boom hydraulic ram leaking all its fluid out during an offshore passage, and it turns out, unsurprisingly, that its pretty difficult to jerry-rig a main sheet on a boom which was never designed to couple with a standard mainsheet.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

What you describe is exactly what we are thinking through and why we have slowed down a bit before buying. We are not going so big that we think we need hydraulics and for all the reasons that you state and more we want to avoid them (and other complicated, weight adding, power sucking, maintenance nightmares, LOL).

 

Really want inside steering and line handling but nobody does this on a Mom and Pop sized boat (except Mainecat), but we also want outside tiller stations and making line handling work at all stations is complicated if not impossible using conventional approaches. If the end result is that we lose inside line handling (ala Outremer), then a safety redundancy such as USU is big on the list if its practical (and can be done without hydraulics). But like I said we have a lot to learn. Times and systems have changed a lot since we were out there.

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Really want inside steering and line handling but nobody does this on a Mom and Pop sized boat (except Mainecat), but we also want outside tiller stations and making line handling work at all stations is complicated if not impossible using conventional approaches. If the end result is that we lose inside line handling (ala Outremer), then a safety redundancy such as USU is big on the list if its practical (and can be done without hydraulics). But like I said we have a lot to learn. Times and systems have changed a lot since we were out there.

 

http://www.broadblue.com/rapier550/

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Thanks VMG but that is not not on our list (as a Mom and Pop sized) and beside I don't want to hijack what turned out to be an interesting hijack from Leopard to being about clutches, cam cleats, clam cleats, and USU type systems.

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Given that the sheet will eventually be released at some point, I don't see much reason to ever leave it in the self tailing winch. Might as well take it out, unwrap to a few appropriate wraps and drop it into a cam cleat. Just plain good practice and much safer.

 

For the mom-pop size offshore cat, it would seem smart to have a trigger line that could pop the sheet out of the cam. The trigger could then be rigged inside or remote to anywhere. I suppose a small line with the appropriate lead angles could be loaded under the sheet in the cam and pop it out easy enough. Anybody try this or have an equivalent setup? Requirements: Simple, reliable, cheap.

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I am thinking remote release cam cleats from Ocean Data with DUMP buttons in a few locations (including the saloon, captain/owner's cabin and head) might be a relatively simple solution for a cruising on a boat with no hydraulics.

 

Seems like you can get the pneumatic cam cleats (modified Harken units) without the full Up Side Up system.

 

http://www.oceandatasystem.com/Documents/Brochure-BCAM-UK.pdf

 

Almost everyone posting here has more experience than me so would like to hear your thoughts.

 

No, I am not connected with Harken or Oceandatasystem - so don't need to buy an add :P

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Great find Catflap! I like the idea of those. Sounds like you are getting things sorted out on your cat. Any racing in the future?

 

Got my hands full just getting back on the water - almost there (have been saying that for the last 2 months).

 

Plan is to sail to Japan in March/April - if I survive that then time for the next plan.

 

On the pnuematic cam cleats I wonder if a CO2 cartridge (the same as life jacket or life raft) would be a better way to go for simplicity and redundancy?

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That would probably be an order of magnitude overkill for that cleat! Do you remember the powered winch system (Lewmar I think) that used pnuematic switches? Real simple and no corrosion as on solenoid switches but there were some bad injuries when temp or atmospheric pressure left the ambient out of kilter with the bellows and tubing. Sounds like they have a reservoir and gauge for this system though.

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Statements from crew here, sounds like a case for the USU system.

 

http://wavetrain.net/news-a-views/764-atlantic-57-capsize-more-details-on-the-fate-of-leopard

This is a interesting account of the capsize by the crew. It is impossible to determine if USU would have helped them. For those of you considering USU, I have attached a PDF showing the solutions they offer. As for the air tank for the pneumatic release system, USU supplies a stainless tank. It is only pumped to 100psi... so no CO2 as questioned by "Catflap". On "H2O" we also use the pneumatic release for the MOB gear to it may be released from the nav station at the USU control panel

 

I do have a few observations from the accounts given by the crew of "Leopard"

- they mention the slick AwlGrip on the underside of the wing deck. For this reason, we created non-skid pathways between all the escape hatches on the "H2o's" under wing deck

- They mention have a difficult time holding to the boat while on the wing deck. One method to improve this situation is to have jack lines extending the length of the under wing deck that can be clipped into before exiting the escape hatch

- They mention "grabbing the life raft and exiting the rear door". I would be far more comfortable with the life raft being mounted on the aft side of the aft beam so it can be accessed with the boat upside down. There would be a non-skid pathway to the life raft and the jack lines would follow the pathway... yes... we did this on "H2O".

 

I congratulate the crew of Leopard for surviving a sudden and catastrophic event. My standard is to stay away from the SA forum for all the reasons mentioned in the "Wavetrain" article. However, since this event presents an opportunity to share methods to improve the SER's, my hope is for a cooperative discussion.

1Solutions_UpSideUp_120903.pdf

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Interesting quote in wavetrain that sounds similar to other post capsize stories of how poor the footing is once the underside of the bridgedeck is the upside. “we were washed fore and aft across the slick Awlgrip surface with each wave”. Obviously, the situation is pretty challenging by that point. Why not make it a little easier by not having a slick surface on the bottom of the bridgedeck…maybe even nonskid? Doesn’t seem unreasonable in a boat that also has a “capsize habitation area in the forepeak”. Its not a very visible area so it should be an issue of aesthetics. Other reasons not to?

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Interesting quote in wavetrain that sounds similar to other post capsize stories of how poor the footing is once the underside of the bridgedeck is the upside. “we were washed fore and aft across the slick Awlgrip surface with each wave”. Obviously, the situation is pretty challenging by that point. Why not make it a little easier by not having a slick surface on the bottom of the bridgedeck…maybe even nonskid? Doesn’t seem unreasonable in a boat that also has a “capsize habitation area in the forepeak”. Its not a very visible area so it should be an issue of aesthetics. Other reasons not to?

My dad's solid bridge deck trimaran had safety orange non skid patches under the wings. Luckily can not comment on how effective it was, but sometimes gave an interesting reflection a bit like an early version of LED UW lights

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I sail beach carts near an airport, and occasional the wing tip vortices from from the land and get you, silent and deadly, even having the main sheet in your hand you end up swimming, its instant ( when your not looking)

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Joli,

 

Have you seen the 'back porch' on one of these A 57's? Pretty nice but seems to be underutilized. I could see having a helm station back there for when the fwd one gets untenable.

 

cerulean_aftdeck.jpg

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Blame the second law of thermodynamics. The lowest entropy state for a catamaran is upside down.

 

...and the lowest entropy state for a keelboat is at the bottom of the sea.

 

Pick your poison.

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There's always a risk and probably a touch more the later you leave it, to me the risk becomes the cold and brutality of the systems but then again they can be pretty nasty in October. We've done this passage more than sixteen times both north-south and south-north from St Maarten to Newport and it's not a fun trip as the systems can move off the US east coast so fast. When we did it in Spirit in 2010 it was mid December and we departed Newport on the back of a big low. It was the only break we could see and we had over 50kts just south of Bermuda, four reefs in the main and surprisingly the boat handled incredibly well not once did we feel a need for the drogue or sea anchor. We have been lucky enough to do it in every month from May-July and October-February like last year when we had minus -26 Celsius on deck in Feb an hour at the helm is all that we could manage between watches it was brutal!!

We just about always depart on the back of a system and try and choose the best break between. We do not depart unless we have a clear window of four days to Bermuda and with nothing big coming through afterwards we don't mind 20-30's even 40's is ok but systems tend to intensify over the stream so getting across that fast with favourable weather is always a goal, which can take time. It's not a passage to push the weather if it can go to shit it normally does. It's always a gamble though it's just minimising the risks.

Another note is that we never no matter how cold and harsh it is helm from the interior of the boat. For me this is increasing risks. I know others won't agree but on the interior looking at a digital readout you have no idea of the wind pressure, air temp or air density all things that can help tell you what's coming and what's going on. Sure you can't always control a situation but you have to do your best and you can't do your best sitting on the interior no matter how nice and comfortable it is.

It sounds as though these guys got hit with something that was well out of their control and then again with all of them on the interior maybe it saved a life? You just never know it's always so easy to preach what we would and wouldn't have done. Glad they're all safe and the boats been recovered less shit floating around out there and people home with their families what's not to like about that!!

Some photos below of when we departed Newport in Feb. Deck lines and Fenders had to be left outside until we got to warmer climates as they were too stiff to put away.

 

 

 

 

 

I am asking this just to learn more about weather. I am not trying to cut down the crew. Is there more risk at this time to leave from above 40N with cold fronts moving over so frequently. I asked a weather guy about this. His response was being in an area between 30 - 50 degrees with a supply of warm water with a cold front moving over is not wise at this time of year. The air mass is just too unstable. His suggestion was to be south earlier in the fall. Here is a synoptic chart for the 17th.

http://www.chesneaumarineweather.com/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php?action=lg_image_request&file=atlantic/2016-11/AtlanticSA-2016-11-17-1200.gif

 

What are peoples thoughts? I am curious to hear from people that make this trip about their thought on time of season And what they look for on a weather chart to make the decision to set out. Is the idea that you leave right after the cold front passes over and make as much distance as possible.

post-53810-0-76722800-1480400260_thumb.jpg

post-53810-0-50532100-1480400445_thumb.jpg

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This is a interesting account of the capsize by the crew. It is impossible to determine if USU would have helped them. For those of you considering USU, I have attached a PDF showing the solutions they offer. As for the air tank for the pneumatic release system, USU supplies a stainless tank. It is only pumped to 100psi... so no CO2 as questioned by "Catflap". On "H2O" we also use the pneumatic release for the MOB gear to it may be released from the nav station at the USU control panel

 

I do have a few observations from the accounts given by the crew of "Leopard"

- they mention the slick AwlGrip on the underside of the wing deck. For this reason, we created non-skid pathways between all the escape hatches on the "H2o's" under wing deck

- They mention have a difficult time holding to the boat while on the wing deck. One method to improve this situation is to have jack lines extending the length of the under wing deck that can be clipped into before exiting the escape hatch

- They mention "grabbing the life raft and exiting the rear door". I would be far more comfortable with the life raft being mounted on the aft side of the aft beam so it can be accessed with the boat upside down. There would be a non-skid pathway to the life raft and the jack lines would follow the pathway... yes... we did this on "H2O".

 

I congratulate the crew of Leopard for surviving a sudden and catastrophic event. My standard is to stay away from the SA forum for all the reasons mentioned in the "Wavetrain" article. However, since this event presents an opportunity to share methods to improve the SER's, my hope is for a cooperative discussion.

 

 

Thanks again Trackday - There is a lot of preachy noise on this site/this thread but the thread also contains some really good unbiased real-life/application information such as that offered by you, pyrat and soma as some examples. That has always been the SA way. Pearls of wisdom buried in big piles of rubbish. The information you folks offered up has been helpful to me for sure - both confirming some of our thoughts/direction and in some cases offering ideas we had not considered or been aware of. Its an interesting time for us as we look to see what is both practical in application, and economically rational on a ~45 foot cat that would eventually be resold.

 

Absolutely agree on the bold part. Never understand the thinking of those not there who want to second guess. To come out alive, the other end of an event that could put a cat that size over, says a lot about the crew. Hats off to them.

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We have. I understand they are busy with other bigger things right now but should they eventually convert that rumor to reality we are on their list of potentials and the timing might be good. Be interesting to see if that 48 2.0 turns more into a 45 or a 50. Am guessing the latter and for now something more (even much more) modest would be fine. Jobs and kids have us as coastal cruisers for a few more years. MC38 would be fine frankly but concerned about a huge depreciation hit. O45 maybe splits the difference nicely.

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Wess why are you concerned about a huge depreciation hit on the MC38...is it specific to the MC38 or is it that the MC38 would be an interim boat that you would have to resell before getting your target boat?

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Both KC375. Would have to sell and I suspect there are not many out there like the wife and I who hate the condomarans and instead want a light powered up performance cat, w daggerboards, minimal systems, and outboards (no diesel inboards). If I recall correctly the MC38 is close to or over $400K (USD). I love the design for our immediate/short-term needs which would be Chesapeake, East coast and Carib cruising. US built. MC has good build history. But just suspect there would not be much of a market for it and we would take a huge hit when we would need to sell it and go to buy the "forever" offshore cat whatever that turns out to be.

 

Veeger just got one. I am kidding when I say I hope it performs so well that it scares his wife and she insists he sell it to me at any price and buy back their 41, LOL. Seriously, I think its a really cool boat but just more money than I would want at play when I know I would have to flip it... especially given its not the typical design that folks look for.

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Joli,

 

Have you seen the 'back porch' on one of these A 57's? Pretty nice but seems to be underutilized. I could see having a helm station back there for when the fwd one gets untenable.

 

cerulean_aftdeck.jpg

 

Hey Rasp, yes I've been aboard these boats, they are very nice. If a wheel was going to be added to the back porch the sail control lines would also need to be brought back. Functionality is built around the forward cockpit.

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It's perfectly safe to go inside and prepare dinner in 20-25kn of wind on a big cruising cat.

But only 99% of the time...

I suspect today's weather models could tell us quite reliably when and where the 1% could occur.

They could also forecast where the 0.001% "flip any boat even without sails" occur, so we could route around.

I don't think the GFS models 'Gust' forecast is sufficient for this purpose, though.

Any (non-armchair) meteorologist here to comment? Or implement...


For those who think they will never flip; have a quick look at this:


... and that wasn't even a really bad one...

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I blame gravity

 

Gravity only would have helped with a lead keel.

 

But more seriously. You guys talking about releasing cam cleats. Does this not depend on keeping the sheet carefully faked down so that it will run? The way sheets are coiled and stored on my boats, releasing the sheet from a cleat would far from guarantee that it ran free. Not only that, you would need to be sure that the route from the coil to the winch was unobstructed, at the proper angle to prevent jamming the barrel, etc. Obviously not a problem on a hydraulic ram system, but the ones I have seen operate too slowly to do much good in a sudden event.

 

I'm curious as to how much effort and thought is put into this on a typical cruising catamaran. Absolutely none on the ones I have sailed on (including an Atlantic 42) or the ones I have walked through (including Gunboats).

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I blame gravity

 

Gravity only would have helped with a lead keel.

 

But more seriously. You guys talking about releasing cam cleats. Does this not depend on keeping the sheet carefully faked down so that it will run? The way sheets are coiled and stored on my boats, releasing the sheet from a cleat would far from guarantee that it ran free. Not only that, you would need to be sure that the route from the coil to the winch was unobstructed, at the proper angle to prevent jamming the barrel, etc. Obviously not a problem on a hydraulic ram system, but the ones I have seen operate too slowly to do much good in a sudden event.

 

I'm curious as to how much effort and thought is put into this on a typical cruising catamaran. Absolutely none on the ones I have sailed on (including an Atlantic 42) or the ones I have walked through (including Gunboats).

 

 

DDW, you raise a very valid point and one I've considered, especially since I'm relying on a clutch, not a cam. I do not keep turns on the ST winch except when trimming and I make a very concerted effort to keep both my main halyard and my mainsheet free and ready to run with out kinks, assholes or twists to the degree possible. Coiling is death. There is always sufficient length of line not 'encumbered' so that I can release the boom to the lee shroud--it won't go any further anyway. The remaining line is stuffed strategically into a line bag. I also have a double ended mainsheet so have to points that can be released (presumably). Yes, clutches under load may have difficulty but for the kind of sailing I do, it's a risk I'll take as overall, I'm conservative and generally sail well below the 'edge'. Having a much smaller main now, also keeps the loads reduced.

 

I seriously doubt that most of those who are so vocal about 'what they would do if....' actually sail that way. The big boyz and the professional programs are more likely to rigidly adhere to the optimum 'best practices' than us 'mom and pops', or, in my case, Pop with Mom watching Pop sail or napping....

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http://www.oceandatasystem.com/Documents/Brochure-ECB-rev1611-UK.pdf

 

Super cool new product. Solves a lot of issues elegantly. Load cell, remote release, manual release, stacking. These guys killed it with this product.

This product has some uses but certainly one size fits all solution for the following reasons:

- You would need to load set condition for every sail configuration as the sheet load that can can capsize a multi change with every sail and with every reef.

- dynamic loads caused by pitching often mimic capsize loads and result in false releases.

- many loads on a multi decrease as the boat passes through the critical angles causing capsize

 

In short, the product has applications but the release will most likely be based upon heel angle and not load.

M

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http://www.oceandatasystem.com/Documents/Brochure-ECB-rev1611-UK.pdf

 

Super cool new product. Solves a lot of issues elegantly. Load cell, remote release, manual release, stacking. These guys killed it with this product.

This product has some uses but certainly one size fits all solution for the following reasons:

- You would need to load set condition for every sail configuration as the sheet load that can can capsize a multi change with every sail and with every reef.

- dynamic loads caused by pitching often mimic capsize loads and result in false releases.

- many loads on a multi decrease as the boat passes through the critical angles causing capsize

 

In short, the product has applications but the release will most likely be based upon heel angle and not load.

 

 

 

 

Herein lies the rub with automatic safety devices. While a capsize really will ruin your day, so won't most every other day be ruined by farting around with settings, false alarms, sudden releases and the resultant unexpected flogging of sails possibly multiple times a day. The 'fun' is then gone.

 

Safety. Everyone wants it but the obsession over ensuring it pretty much destroys the pocketbook and enjoyment that attracted us to our chosen recreation. It is elusive and it's usually the one thing you didn't address that will get you. Risk exists in just about every aspect of life, deal with it or sail a simulator on your computer....

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http://www.oceandatasystem.com/Documents/Brochure-ECB-rev1611-UK.pdf

 

Super cool new product. Solves a lot of issues elegantly. Load cell, remote release, manual release, stacking. These guys killed it with this product.

 

Soma - Respect your experience and opinion a lot but I admit I am confused by everyone doing back flips over this.

 

How is this useful for sheets or travelers (which are really what matter for the topic of avoiding capsize, no?)?

 

Getting a lot of line eased quickly through a clutch is a b*tch, never mind a constrictor clutch, no?

 

Sorry if its a stupid question and I am missing something obvious.

 

Edit to add: Veeger - just noticed you back on-line. I'm jealous (and also trapped at a desk). Drop a line or update the thread and let us know where you are how she goes... Hope all is well.

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I know it as Upside Up, but it's made by Ocean Data Systems. Once it's dialled in and tested it's great, but most of the boats that I know don't use it.

 

http://www.oceandatasystem.com/solutions-ods/en

We do use USU for all cruising applications and release parameters are in the following order:

- Angle of heel

- rate of change in angle of heel

- angle of pitch (for this you generally only release the headsail and not the mainsail)

- % of change in TWS

- shroud load

 

Shroud load is not a great release parameter for the following reasons:

- lashed shrouds require a inline sensor because a standard load pin cannot interpolate the load spread over the distance of the lashing... spend $$$ for a inline sensor

- dynamic loads can simulate hull fly and trigger false alarm

- the loads decrease after 15 degrees of heel so you must set a "if then" statement that looks like this; "if heel angle is > X and the shroud load is decreasing, then release.

 

- You must create a different shroud load release statement for each sail configuration because as the center of effort of the sail plan decreases, the shroud load increases to generate hull fly.

 

We do use USU while racing but with scary high parameters so we do not experience a false release. The primary feature we use are the "dump buttons" at each helm position and the forward cockpit. When the boat is being sailed at the limit, these are used every watch (especially if the traveler is in the lower quarter of its range)! Using this feature, the mainsail will dump 1m for each touch in 1 second.

 

For winch release systems, the flipper cams have been mostly replaced with a much more reliable pneumatic drive pin that pushes the line out of the cam

 

 

attachicon.gifB_Cam.jpg

 

The last part of following statement is quite surprising: "You must create a different shroud load release statement for each sail configuration because as the center of effort of the sail plan decreases, the shroud load increases to generate hull fly."

 

 

Could you explain why that would be so?

I would have thought that as the CofE (of the sails) decreases, the heeling force increases if heeling moment is constant and matching max righting moment of the multihull.

Now heeling moment can be calculated with respect to mast step, and doing so the lower part of it is: lateral force (resisting heeling force) times distance between CofE of lateral area (under water) and the mast step. That lower part is increasing (because the force is increasing and leverage stays the same), and since the total heeling moment is kept constant, the upper part must be decreasing. That is the heeling aerodynamic force on the sailplan and rigging times its leverage over mast step must decrease. That I would have thought means that shroud load would decrease as its leverage from mast step remains the same. If windage on the platform is taken account shroud loads should decrease even more so.

What am I missing?

Are you including dynamic effects?

If so why do they reverse the effect on shroud loading under reduced sails?

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I blame gravity

 

Gravity only would have helped with a lead keel.

 

But more seriously. You guys talking about releasing cam cleats. Does this not depend on keeping the sheet carefully faked down so that it will run? The way sheets are coiled and stored on my boats, releasing the sheet from a cleat would far from guarantee that it ran free. Not only that, you would need to be sure that the route from the coil to the winch was unobstructed, at the proper angle to prevent jamming the barrel, etc. Obviously not a problem on a hydraulic ram system, but the ones I have seen operate too slowly to do much good in a sudden event.

 

I'm curious as to how much effort and thought is put into this on a typical cruising catamaran. Absolutely none on the ones I have sailed on (including an Atlantic 42) or the ones I have walked through (including Gunboats).

 

 

DDW, you raise a very valid point and one I've considered, especially since I'm relying on a clutch, not a cam. I do not keep turns on the ST winch except when trimming and I make a very concerted effort to keep both my main halyard and my mainsheet free and ready to run with out kinks, assholes or twists to the degree possible. Coiling is death. There is always sufficient length of line not 'encumbered' so that I can release the boom to the lee shroud--it won't go any further anyway. The remaining line is stuffed strategically into a line bag. I also have a double ended mainsheet so have to points that can be released (presumably). Yes, clutches under load may have difficulty but for the kind of sailing I do, it's a risk I'll take as overall, I'm conservative and generally sail well below the 'edge'. Having a much smaller main now, also keeps the loads reduced.

 

I seriously doubt that most of those who are so vocal about 'what they would do if....' actually sail that way. The big boyz and the professional programs are more likely to rigidly adhere to the optimum 'best practices' than us 'mom and pops', or, in my case, Pop with Mom watching Pop sail or napping....

 

 

 

It seems to me that a gadget to accomplish the automatic release (to be convenient to use) would need to be independent of the normal trimming means. Exploding bolts come to mind and would be kind of fun, but a more practical example: attach the main sheet to a lanyard that runs through an exit in the end of the boom inside to a carriage near the forward end. This carriage has a trip, actuated by the computer and its sensors. When tripped, it lets the carriage go free, traveling to the aft end, releasing the sheet. No coils, cleats, cam cleats, jams: the lanyard is straight when it starts and turns only at the boom exit. To recover, release the sheet and pull the carriage and lanyard back to its latch in front with a light line. (This line has to be coiled, but that can be carefully done as it is never disturbed until the next trip, and could be made light enough to break if caught). Pretty cheap to implement, not in the way of anything, and *relatively* foolproof. Put 10 wraps on your self tailer and sail.

 

I'm sure there are other ways to do this, but depending on the main trimming mechanisms to double as a safety release has got to inconvenience one or compromise the other.

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I know it as Upside Up, but it's made by Ocean Data Systems. Once it's dialled in and tested it's great, but most of the boats that I know don't use it.

 

http://www.oceandatasystem.com/solutions-ods/en

We do use USU for all cruising applications and release parameters are in the following order:

- Angle of heel

- rate of change in angle of heel

- angle of pitch (for this you generally only release the headsail and not the mainsail)

- % of change in TWS

- shroud load

 

Shroud load is not a great release parameter for the following reasons:

- lashed shrouds require a inline sensor because a standard load pin cannot interpolate the load spread over the distance of the lashing... spend $$$ for a inline sensor

- dynamic loads can simulate hull fly and trigger false alarm

- the loads decrease after 15 degrees of heel so you must set a "if then" statement that looks like this; "if heel angle is > X and the shroud load is decreasing, then release.

 

- You must create a different shroud load release statement for each sail configuration because as the center of effort of the sail plan decreases, the shroud load increases to generate hull fly.

 

We do use USU while racing but with scary high parameters so we do not experience a false release. The primary feature we use are the "dump buttons" at each helm position and the forward cockpit. When the boat is being sailed at the limit, these are used every watch (especially if the traveler is in the lower quarter of its range)! Using this feature, the mainsail will dump 1m for each touch in 1 second.

 

For winch release systems, the flipper cams have been mostly replaced with a much more reliable pneumatic drive pin that pushes the line out of the cam

 

 

attachicon.gifB_Cam.jpg

 

The last part of following statement is quite surprising: "You must create a different shroud load release statement for each sail configuration because as the center of effort of the sail plan decreases, the shroud load increases to generate hull fly."

 

 

Could you explain why that would be so?

I would have thought that as the CofE (of the sails) decreases, the heeling force increases if heeling moment is constant and matching max righting moment of the multihull.

Now heeling moment can be calculated with respect to mast step, and doing so the lower part of it is: lateral force (resisting heeling force) times distance between CofE of lateral area (under water) and the mast step. That lower part is increasing (because the force is increasing and leverage stays the same), and since the total heeling moment is kept constant, the upper part must be decreasing. That is the heeling aerodynamic force on the sailplan and rigging times its leverage over mast step must decrease. That I would have thought means that shroud load would decrease as its leverage from mast step remains the same. If windage on the platform is taken account shroud loads should decrease even more so.

What am I missing?

Are you including dynamic effects?

If so why do they reverse the effect on shroud loading under reduced sails?

 

@ NotSoFast...

You are mostly correct in your observations.. perhaps a picture is worth a thousand words... Here is the shroud load model for one boat weight at one daggerboard depth. You will see that for reasons of safety we decrease the chance of hull fly wind angles and sail area changes. The point is, shroud load and loads as a parameter for sheet release is a moving target...

post-12534-0-09358100-1480537189_thumb.jpg

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Gravity only would have helped with a lead keel.

 

But more seriously. You guys talking about releasing cam cleats. Does this not depend on keeping the sheet carefully faked down so that it will run? The way sheets are coiled and stored on my boats, releasing the sheet from a cleat would far from guarantee that it ran free. Not only that, you would need to be sure that the route from the coil to the winch was unobstructed, at the proper angle to prevent jamming the barrel, etc. Obviously not a problem on a hydraulic ram system, but the ones I have seen operate too slowly to do much good in a sudden event.

 

I'm curious as to how much effort and thought is put into this on a typical cruising catamaran. Absolutely none on the ones I have sailed on (including an Atlantic 42) or the ones I have walked through (including Gunboats).

DDW, you raise a very valid point and one I've considered, especially since I'm relying on a clutch, not a cam. I do not keep turns on the ST winch except when trimming and I make a very concerted effort to keep both my main halyard and my mainsheet free and ready to run with out kinks, assholes or twists to the degree possible. Coiling is death. There is always sufficient length of line not 'encumbered' so that I can release the boom to the lee shroud--it won't go any further anyway. The remaining line is stuffed strategically into a line bag. I also have a double ended mainsheet so have to points that can be released (presumably). Yes, clutches under load may have difficulty but for the kind of sailing I do, it's a risk I'll take as overall, I'm conservative and generally sail well below the 'edge'. Having a much smaller main now, also keeps the loads reduced.

 

I seriously doubt that most of those who are so vocal about 'what they would do if....' actually sail that way. The big boyz and the professional programs are more likely to rigidly adhere to the optimum 'best practices' than us 'mom and pops', or, in my case, Pop with Mom watching Pop sail or napping....

 

It seems to me that a gadget to accomplish the automatic release (to be convenient to use) would need to be independent of the normal trimming means. Exploding bolts come to mind and would be kind of fun, but a more practical example: attach the main sheet to a lanyard that runs through an exit in the end of the boom inside to a carriage near the forward end. This carriage has a trip, actuated by the computer and its sensors. When tripped, it lets the carriage go free, traveling to the aft end, releasing the sheet. No coils, cleats, cam cleats, jams: the lanyard is straight when it starts and turns only at the boom exit. To recover, release the sheet and pull the carriage and lanyard back to its latch in front with a light line. (This line has to be coiled, but that can be carefully done as it is never disturbed until the next trip, and could be made light enough to break if caught). Pretty cheap to implement, not in the way of anything, and *relatively* foolproof. Put 10 wraps on your self tailer and sail.

 

I'm sure there are other ways to do this, but depending on the main trimming mechanisms to double as a safety release has got to inconvenience one or compromise the other.

Yes! +1. Put the fuse elsewhere from normal line handling. Self-tailing winches are EXTREMELY useful and practical.

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Gravity only would have helped with a lead keel.

 

But more seriously. You guys talking about releasing cam cleats. Does this not depend on keeping the sheet carefully faked down so that it will run? The way sheets are coiled and stored on my boats, releasing the sheet from a cleat would far from guarantee that it ran free. Not only that, you would need to be sure that the route from the coil to the winch was unobstructed, at the proper angle to prevent jamming the barrel, etc. Obviously not a problem on a hydraulic ram system, but the ones I have seen operate too slowly to do much good in a sudden event.

 

I'm curious as to how much effort and thought is put into this on a typical cruising catamaran. Absolutely none on the ones I have sailed on (including an Atlantic 42) or the ones I have walked through (including Gunboats).

 

DDW, you raise a very valid point and one I've considered, especially since I'm relying on a clutch, not a cam. I do not keep turns on the ST winch except when trimming and I make a very concerted effort to keep both my main halyard and my mainsheet free and ready to run with out kinks, assholes or twists to the degree possible. Coiling is death. There is always sufficient length of line not 'encumbered' so that I can release the boom to the lee shroud--it won't go any further anyway. The remaining line is stuffed strategically into a line bag. I also have a double ended mainsheet so have to points that can be released (presumably). Yes, clutches under load may have difficulty but for the kind of sailing I do, it's a risk I'll take as overall, I'm conservative and generally sail well below the 'edge'. Having a much smaller main now, also keeps the loads reduced.

 

I seriously doubt that most of those who are so vocal about 'what they would do if....' actually sail that way. The big boyz and the professional programs are more likely to rigidly adhere to the optimum 'best practices' than us 'mom and pops', or, in my case, Pop with Mom watching Pop sail or napping....

 

It seems to me that a gadget to accomplish the automatic release (to be convenient to use) would need to be independent of the normal trimming means. Exploding bolts come to mind and would be kind of fun, but a more practical example: attach the main sheet to a lanyard that runs through an exit in the end of the boom inside to a carriage near the forward end. This carriage has a trip, actuated by the computer and its sensors. When tripped, it lets the carriage go free, traveling to the aft end, releasing the sheet. No coils, cleats, cam cleats, jams: the lanyard is straight when it starts and turns only at the boom exit. To recover, release the sheet and pull the carriage and lanyard back to its latch in front with a light line. (This line has to be coiled, but that can be carefully done as it is never disturbed until the next trip, and could be made light enough to break if caught). Pretty cheap to implement, not in the way of anything, and *relatively* foolproof. Put 10 wraps on your self tailer and sail.

 

I'm sure there are other ways to do this, but depending on the main trimming mechanisms to double as a safety release has got to inconvenience one or compromise the other.

Yes! +1. Put the fuse elsewhere from normal line handling. Self-tailing winches are EXTREMELY useful and practical.

On our boat, we have the "fuse" for the Solent and for the mainsail integrated into the sheeting system (and triggered manually or - once fully commissioned :-) - by up-side-up). The downwind sail sheets go into a pair of "pneumatic ejection" cam cleats like the ones that trackday showed.

 

For the main sail, there is an extra bit of coiled up sheet hidden in a container in the "fixed" end of the main sheet that is release by an actuated shakel, and the sheet for the Solent has a turning block under the bridge deck that can be released.

 

The advantage is that you are not dependent on the sheet running freely, that the likelyhood of injuring someone with a highly loaded fast running sheet is reduced, and that you can continue to sail (though not automatically release again until rearmed), with a some extra sheet.

 

On the minus side, we had our sheet on the Solent system getting sufficiently twisted from the winches that it twisted the extra block with other lines, and thus blocked our Solent sheet system during a recent race.

 

I can take pictures of the arrangements over the weekend if that helps and is of interest to anyone.

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Double ended sheet with the quick release end all flaked away sounds excellent. Thanks for that tidbit.

 

We had a racing 40 tri that we converted to a big rotating wingmast and full beam traveller using a hydraulic ram inside the boom to activate. The hydraulic was slow to release in a panic and nearly pitchpoled a couple of times before we added a block and tackle double end in the same manner with one of those flip over clam cleats with the lanyard toggle hanging out the bottom of the boom for panic release. Big improvement.

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explosive bolts on the rigging operated from an app on your phone as most people always have that in their hand these days..lol

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I can just see someone on the boat you're about to pass exploding your bolts. :D

 

Chuckling aside, there's been a surprising number of interesting ideas in the latter part of this thread.

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I can just see someone on the boat you're about to pass exploding your bolts. :D

 

Chuckling aside, there's been a surprising number of interesting ideas in the latter part of this thread.

Agree! Turned into a really useful thread.

 

Tr1plet - I for one would be interested to see those pics if you could post or PM them.

 

Guess Soma is off selling boats (hopefully). Am I the only one who wonders about the utility those constrictor clutches in #135 as a solution for sheets (main or foresails) and trav?

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Am I the only one who wonders about the utility those constrictor clutches in #135 as a solution for sheets (main or foresails) and trav?

 

On our Outremer 5X, both the main and the trav go through clutches. These are usually open and the sheet is on the self-tailer (yes, I know).

If we had a clutch which could reliably (and even remotely / automatically) open, that would be a huge improvement; solve the self-tailer issue and free up a winch or two.

On the other hand; dumping the main to the shrouds will not make a big difference downwind...

Our philosophy is to be very conservative with the main and somewhat more aggressive with foresails, which are quite easily dumped/furled.

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Gravity only would have helped with a lead keel.

 

But more seriously. You guys talking about releasing cam cleats. Does this not depend on keeping the sheet carefully faked down so that it will run? The way sheets are coiled and stored on my boats, releasing the sheet from a cleat would far from guarantee that it ran free. Not only that, you would need to be sure that the route from the coil to the winch was unobstructed, at the proper angle to prevent jamming the barrel, etc. Obviously not a problem on a hydraulic ram system, but the ones I have seen operate too slowly to do much good in a sudden event.

 

I'm curious as to how much effort and thought is put into this on a typical cruising catamaran. Absolutely none on the ones I have sailed on (including an Atlantic 42) or the ones I have walked through (including Gunboats).

DDW, you raise a very valid point and one I've considered, especially since I'm relying on a clutch, not a cam. I do not keep turns on the ST winch except when trimming and I make a very concerted effort to keep both my main halyard and my mainsheet free and ready to run with out kinks, assholes or twists to the degree possible. Coiling is death. There is always sufficient length of line not 'encumbered' so that I can release the boom to the lee shroud--it won't go any further anyway. The remaining line is stuffed strategically into a line bag. I also have a double ended mainsheet so have to points that can be released (presumably). Yes, clutches under load may have difficulty but for the kind of sailing I do, it's a risk I'll take as overall, I'm conservative and generally sail well below the 'edge'. Having a much smaller main now, also keeps the loads reduced.

 

I seriously doubt that most of those who are so vocal about 'what they would do if....' actually sail that way. The big boyz and the professional programs are more likely to rigidly adhere to the optimum 'best practices' than us 'mom and pops', or, in my case, Pop with Mom watching Pop sail or napping....

 

It seems to me that a gadget to accomplish the automatic release (to be convenient to use) would need to be independent of the normal trimming means. Exploding bolts come to mind and would be kind of fun, but a more practical example: attach the main sheet to a lanyard that runs through an exit in the end of the boom inside to a carriage near the forward end. This carriage has a trip, actuated by the computer and its sensors. When tripped, it lets the carriage go free, traveling to the aft end, releasing the sheet. No coils, cleats, cam cleats, jams: the lanyard is straight when it starts and turns only at the boom exit. To recover, release the sheet and pull the carriage and lanyard back to its latch in front with a light line. (This line has to be coiled, but that can be carefully done as it is never disturbed until the next trip, and could be made light enough to break if caught). Pretty cheap to implement, not in the way of anything, and *relatively* foolproof. Put 10 wraps on your self tailer and sail.

 

I'm sure there are other ways to do this, but depending on the main trimming mechanisms to double as a safety release has got to inconvenience one or compromise the other.

Yes! +1. Put the fuse elsewhere from normal line handling. Self-tailing winches are EXTREMELY useful and practical.

On our boat, we have the "fuse" for the Solent and for the mainsail integrated into the sheeting system (and triggered manually or - once fully commissioned :-) - by up-side-up). The downwind sail sheets go into a pair of "pneumatic ejection" cam cleats like the ones that trackday showed.

 

For the main sail, there is an extra bit of coiled up sheet hidden in a container in the "fixed" end of the main sheet that is release by an actuated shakel, and the sheet for the Solent has a turning block under the bridge deck that can be released.

 

The advantage is that you are not dependent on the sheet running freely, that the likelyhood of injuring someone with a highly loaded fast running sheet is reduced, and that you can continue to sail (though not automatically release again until rearmed), with a some extra sheet.

 

On the minus side, we had our sheet on the Solent system getting sufficiently twisted from the winches that it twisted the extra block with other lines, and thus blocked our Solent sheet system during a recent race.

 

I can take pictures of the arrangements over the weekend if that helps and is of interest to anyone.

 

 

tr1plet,

 

I would love to see pictures or any other detail you'd care to share. Thinking through some form of this for ourselves, trying to figure out the best application/configuration. Greatly appreciative of any additional info or images you can share.

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Big D,

 

You come here and purport to have spoken directly with the crew of the Leopard and give vague details about the conditions and sail trim and even hint that with sails eased the crew was more involved with dinner than sailing the boat. You said that not I but then jump down my throat and accuse me of making unfounded remarks along with a nasty an attitude that is excessive even here. A couple others asked you for more info and you weren't any further forthcoming.

 

You are in no position to be questioning anyone here's experience and your rabid defense of your friends on the LEOPARD helps no one. If you have any further facts then please share in order to add to our collective experience in such situations. I get the impression that this was an experienced delivery crew and that the owners were not onboard, yes? Not that it matters but I am relieved that the souls on board were rescued in such short order with no more than getting a bit roughed up. I do care and don't see how you can proclaim that I don't.

 

After reading Chris White's account of the incident it does seem that no one was on deck and all three crew were in the final prep for dinner after dark. With a cold front approaching and true winds of 23-28 knots and no one on deck or the cockpit (according to Chris) it is very likely that a waterspout could capsize the boat despite the second reef in the main and a partially furled small self tacking jib.

 

Here is the rest of Chris' account.

 

https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/leopard-capsize

 

Just a guess as to position but pretty much in keeping with conditions described by Chris at the time;

 

CUDSbgB.png

 

 

Exactly Rasps, well said. FFS they were waiting for a front (and all the potential nasties contained within) and no ones on deck.

 

Poor form. Negligent.

 

From the linky CW says boat jogging along on starboard , course 150, eased off wind and sheets eased. That puts the wind not in the south but closer to SW, hence probably right on the front line. Sheets eased ,sails almost luffing, puts the Mainsail pretty close

to hard on the leeward shroud.

 

WTF did they think was going to happen in strong frontal Westerly change with no one on deck.?. Easing the main wasn't going to do much. Putting a dinner date before boat safety sums the crew care factor and experience up perfectly. With an approaching front, short handed, reef main early not ease onto shrouds,AND HAVE SOMEONE ON DECK.

 

 

Overlay, I've talked extensively to the crew about this incident. When hard on the wind the course was 150 prior to bearing off a few degrees to smooth the boat motion; so let's say it was 140. The sheets were then cracked off just enough to keep the tell-tales flowing on the bottom two-thirds of the sails; (two deep reefs in the mainsail, and the staysail rolled up to the second reef point). Travelers were still in close-hauled position. The mainsail had some slight twist but nowhere near leeward shrouds. Captain and mate came inside and were standing by the interior helm station monitoring instruments. Ten seconds later, after a drop in breeze to 18 knots true, there was a roar and the boat rotated over without any acceleration, apparently "like being in an elevator". There was "no dinner date", though a pot was being heated on the stove at the time. The crew were well aware of their position in relation to the front, and had reefed in anticipation of strong lifts. They were paying close attention to conditions.. Experience: The captain first skippered a catamaran in 1975, and has captained (and raced) other cats up to 70ft across Pacific and Atlantic oceans since. Also extensively raced a Corsair 28R, 31 1D, Extreme 40 etc. The other crew have been blue water sailing for 42 years and 16 years respectively. They feel they are alive today because they weren't outside when they were hit by the suspected tornadic waterspout. What are you basing your judgements on?

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Am I the only one who wonders about the utility those constrictor clutches in #135 as a solution for sheets (main or foresails) and trav?

 

On our Outremer 5X, both the main and the trav go through clutches. These are usually open and the sheet is on the self-tailer (yes, I know).

If we had a clutch which could reliably (and even remotely / automatically) open, that would be a huge improvement; solve the self-tailer issue and free up a winch or two.

On the other hand; dumping the main to the shrouds will not make a big difference downwind...

Our philosophy is to be very conservative with the main and somewhat more aggressive with foresails, which are quite easily dumped/furled.

 

Broad reaching with the wind turning DDW a quick release button

will increase the projected sail area to the wind (pitchpole) ?

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It's perfectly safe to go inside and prepare dinner in 20-25kn of wind on a big cruising cat.
But only 99% of the time...
I suspect today's weather models could tell us quite reliably when and where the 1% could occur.
They could also forecast where the 0.001% "flip any boat even without sails" occur, so we could route around.
I don't think the GFS models 'Gust' forecast is sufficient for this purpose, though.
Any (non-armchair) meteorologist here to comment? Or implement...

 

Windytv now also displays CAPE:

https://www.windytv.com/overlays?cape,-11.609,140.405,5

Compare with predicted 'Gusts'

https://www.windytv.com/overlays?gust,-11.609,140.405,5

 

Some of our other weather sources are considering offering this excellent information as well.

Email them for encouragement!

 

Explanation of CAPE:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convective_available_potential_energy

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That still looks pretty good. At least better than the Gunboat when they recovered it... 

@Wess Isn't that something for you?

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43 minutes ago, toolbar said:

That still looks pretty good. At least better than the Gunboat when they recovered it... 

@Wess Isn't that something for you?

Thanks for the heads up.

We are looking at a few things right now but nothing has gelled yet.

The A57 salvage notice did cross my desk and I pushed it on to an NA we are working with to get thoughts.  So its a big.... maybe!??

Its also more (ie larger) than we want and more cruisy (ie heavy) than we prefer for our current needs though on point for our future (5-10 years out) needs.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Thanks for the heads up.

We are looking at a few things right now but nothing has gelled yet.

The A57 salvage notice did cross my desk and I pushed it on to an NA we are working with to get thoughts.  So its a big.... maybe!??

Its also more (ie larger) than we want and more cruisy (ie heavy) than we prefer for our current needs though on point for our future (5-10 years out) needs.

 

 

Does seem surprisingly good for half a year at sea upside down. A couple of years from now I might seriously consider this but no way I could move in the timeframe offered.

Wess did the NA or others give you any sense of cost/effort to make seaworthy again – i.e. serviceable/reliable even if cosmetically imperfect? I’d certainly understand if you did have an answer that you might prefer to not share it until after the 18th.

If you go for it, best of luck.

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8 hours ago, KC375 said:

Does seem surprisingly good for half a year at sea upside down. A couple of years from now I might seriously consider this but no way I could move in the timeframe offered.

Wess did the NA or others give you any sense of cost/effort to make seaworthy again – i.e. serviceable/reliable even if cosmetically imperfect? I’d certainly understand if you did have an answer that you might prefer to not share it until after the 18th.

If you go for it, best of luck.

Aquidneck Custom builds a top notch boat.  All the major structure appears sound, based on the photos in the link.  Even the pilothouse windows are still intact.  You might be surprised (in a good way) at the weight. 

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18 hours ago, KC375 said:

Does seem surprisingly good for half a year at sea upside down. A couple of years from now I might seriously consider this but no way I could move in the timeframe offered.

Wess did the NA or others give you any sense of cost/effort to make seaworthy again – i.e. serviceable/reliable even if cosmetically imperfect? I’d certainly understand if you did have an answer that you might prefer to not share it until after the 18th.

If you go for it, best of luck.

We have been looking at a number of refit projects so I do have a general sense of that number but of course it has to be refined for each specific situation.  Even then however its so highly dependent on how racey or how cush or how extensively equipped (systems) you want it to be. For the same boat the number can easily vary 2-3X or more.

10 hours ago, WYD_StCroix said:

Aquidneck Custom builds a top notch boat.  All the major structure appears sound, based on the photos in the link.  Even the pilothouse windows are still intact.  You might be surprised (in a good way) at the weight. 

Yes, absolutely. I don't treat this place as the "real world" and am too casual with my communication on SA when the two intersect.  In this case SA and the real world does intersect for me and from your comment I realizing that my use of the term "heavy" can be taken in a way I didn't intend.  Let me try again.  :) 

CW designs and Aquidneck builds great boats (3 Birds, etc... IIRC), that are fast, strong and light compared to most blue water cruising cats.  What I should have said is that our immediate and near term need/desire is for something less voyaging / blue waterish, and more coastal, fast and highly responsive. Able to fly a hull easily and afterwards still host a cocktail party of the bridgedeck and provide the owners with a hot shower, comfortable well ventilated bunk, and minimal systems to spend time maintaining.  While the A57 might well suit our voyaging needs 5-10 years out if all goes well w kids, mids, and parent's and our health, its perhaps a bit (ie a lot) more boat than we want/need right now.  I tried to sum that nuanced idea up with one word - heavy - and it didn't fit.  Thanks for noting that.

We continue to explore this space but are in no rush.  It will be what it will be.

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For anybody considering this: you're buying a hull and cabin structure. Maybe winches and some deck hardware will be ok. Nothing else. 

You should assume you need

- all wiring, electronics, electrical equipment, batteries

- new engines

- lifelines & stanchions?

- an allowance for structural repairs for when it was flipped back up and lifted on land

- mast & rigging

- sails

- any plywood interior joinery ripped out and then reinstalled

- interior hardware

- safety equipment

-windlass

- anchor/chain?

- dinghy, outboard

I'd say it's worth $60-80K right now

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

For anybody considering this: you're buying a hull and cabin structure. Maybe winches and some deck hardware will be ok. Nothing else. 

 

I'd say it's worth $60-80K right now

 

So putting in a bid near the minimum $25k would not be crazy…but would be just the smallest of down payment on a lengthy and expensive boat acquisition. Could be a fun project that might end up costing not much more than buying a ready to go boat.

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