nutfarmer

new stiletto? any news on this cat?

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evenb the facebook adds have stopped .....

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The 400 plus Stiletto owners used to have a great website and forum on a "Wild Jibe" platform. It had a lot of information, articles, photos of past Nationals, owner photos, refurbish and upgrade tips, and forum responses from Wormwood and others with significant Stiletto experience. Plus a good "for sale" section.

 

That is now all gone and cannot be accessed. I assume confiscated and shut down by the "new" Stiletto.

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Last news on the website was that Randy Reynolds had joined the effort for the New Foiling version back in June. Great guy and has been around the cat racing scene forever and I thought that might be the impetus to make things happen.

 

Silence since. Lets keep out hopes up though.

 

Randy Reynolds Joins Stiletto Manufacturing Inc. As Product And Class Consultant For The X-Series Foiling Catamaran

Randy2-300x243.jpgStiletto Manufacturing Inc. is happy to announce that Randy Reynolds, designer of the R33 catamaran, has come aboard the Stiletto team as a product and class consultant for the new Stiletto X-Series Catamarans.

“When I saw the first press release on the new Stiletto, with her weight and foiling design, I had to get involved,” Reynolds said.

Reynolds has been designing sails and sailboats since 1974. His work includes rigs and sails for performance dinghies, monohulls, multihulls, windsurfers, and hydrofoil boats. In the 1990’s, he designed sails for Hobie Trifoilers. Reynolds’ design credits include performance sailboards, sailboats, and multihulls ranging from 8 to 45 feet, including the Reynolds 33 catamaran, which won the N2E race in 2005 and was Sailing World’s Boat of the Year in 2006.

“Reynolds enthusiasm for the new X-Series is highly validating,” Company Director Jay Phillips said. “I have immense respect for Randy’s experience on high performance catamarans and look forward to working with him on final rigging and one-design ideas.” Prior to Stiletto, Phillips served as a Project and Rigging Manager for Gunboat.

Reynolds co-founded the well-known sailing news website XSsailing.com in 2006. In 2009, he co-founded The Border Run, the largest point-to-point ocean race in Southern California, which gathered over 220 entries in 2012 and 2013.

“Reynolds’ passion for speed and his proven ability to get sailors out on the water is a good fit for Stiletto, where our mission is not just to build great sailboats, but also to make great sailors,” said Meg Phillips, co-founder and CMO of Stiletto Manufacturing.

Stiletto Manufacturing has a talented group working on the Stiletto X-Series, including Schickler Tagliapietra, who was involved with the G-4 project and the Luna Rossa America’s Cup program. Stiletto is also getting input on the foil design from the DNA team at Holland Composites.

Reynolds is excited about the part he will play in Stiletto design and manufacturing.

“It’s an aggressive program both in design and production expectations. All the boats in the X-Series should be rocket ships, based on my experience in racing and sailing cats of this size. I am an experienced ‘foiler’ and very excited about the Stiletto-Xf. I want to thank the Stiletto team for being included in the growth of this leading-edge and revolutionary boat.”

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Foiling boats is a tricky market to get into. By the time you have put your chosen foil option into production - it could well be out of date.

 

I see that the Foiling Phantom has had a rethink after a short production run

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Nothing is changing on the Flying Phantom. Those boats are still being built.Phantom International is building a new recreational boat. The Phantom Essential is geared for the average sailor to take his friends foiling. They are 2 different boats/2 different markets.

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Foiling boats is a tricky market to get into. By the time you have put your chosen foil option into production - it could well be out of date.

 

I see that the Foiling Phantom has had a rethink after a short production run

 

You mean the new boat? As far as I know they've done well with the original boat and have introduced a new ,less expensive boat that uses a different foil system to appeal to a different market.

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Thanks for the lead on facebook. The priming vid looks recent (11/23). Did they assemble one of these and do any sea trials?

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Thanks for the lead on facebook. The priming vid looks recent (11/23). Did they assemble one of these and do any sea trials?

They are not that far along. As posted above, they are priming the first hull. Given the lack of photos and info, I'm guessing that they are still head-scratching their way through figuring out all the details. Designing and executing a trailerable multihull 18' wide, that's user friendly is VERY challenging. Having been through it myself, I knew that they were hugely optimistic with their launch date. It is going to be a cool boat when complete - the foiling package is optional. Unfortunately, I think that the first boat was ordered as a foiler, so the rest of production will probably be delayed while they sort through the foiling challenges.

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I'll have pictures and video to show as soon as the first boat hits the water. The exact date I can't say but I'm on call to get up to the factory as soon as this happens. (next 2 weeks) The first non-foiler will be out before the first foiler.

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Projected to be done on Thursday but we'll see. The crew is working like crazy but is a new boat design, anything could happen. The updates on the "Sail Stiletto" Facebook page look very encouraging.

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Very interesting link! (fldreamer) had no idea the Phillps were doing a charter biz in S Florida. They have taken deposits on the new boats, makes me wonder if they are in the 'upfront deposits' business. Takes a butt load of money to design a new boat, open a new boat factory and then get production going. I hope for the best and continue to watch.

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A few years back before the new Jeep Cherokee's were launched, I was driving across Alligator Alley and was passed by 3 white ones with Michigan tags. I assumed that they were prototypes on an extended test.

 

What is the gestation/trial by fire testing time frame for a brand new boat of a unique concept?

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And sailing.

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And sailing.

Their facebook cover photo of the boat is amazing. The cat looks drop dead gorgeous. And the dog chillaxin is hilarious. Didn't follow along to know if that is a paint or gelcoat job but damn!!! Very nice looking.

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Considering How long ago they launched I am starting to wonder if there is something seriously wrong with the boat. Wouldn't they have posted some sailing videos other than a couple short clips of being reeled in light breeze?

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The boat is far from done just floated it to take pics and tell people its done.Its suppost to fold and raise mast but one person.Boat in pic has non folding beams and non folding deck.They said all the electronics were done but had to guess boat and wind speed.

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It doesn't pay to rush hull #1, they need to be perfect out of the gate or it will kick their long term goals in the teeth, and their long term goals are huge.

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19 minutes ago, Stiletto23 said:

Chapter 11

Really or is this speculation?

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Ah geeze.  Hoping another friend didn't just get burned by a Chapter 11 in this industry.

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I went aboard in Annapolis and it showed really well. I missed out on the demo sail and was hoping to try one next year. The 1 year old, 20 million dollar brewery/ beer garden in my town just closed yesterday too. 

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Beer will get you through times of no Stiletto's better that Stiletto's will get you through times of no beer! How many new Stiletto's could you build for the $20,000,000 that your brewery cost? I think that they got most of the pre-production work done on the new boat so maybe it will still come to fruition. The foiler version are up a lot of energy and resources. The original Stiletto 27 was so far ahead of its time. Some of the best sailing/racing/just knocking around I've every had was on a Stiletto.

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What's it going to take for an innovative builder of small to midsize boats to be successful in the states? I understand the market here is limited and labor costs are high. But I'm tired of Europe getting all the cool boats.

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check with Dave Clark, he’s learned some lessons I’m sure.

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I don't know about the original being ahead of her time design wise, although from a construction standpoint we still hav'nt got to where stiletto was back then. Those were the type of designs that were around back then with the Stiletto and Mac36 in the US, the GBE and Turissimo in New Zealand and numerous similar cats in Aus. What do we have now of the net and tube type production cats. Zip. We did have the R33 which was fairly successful I believe until the great recession. Its very disappointing if Stiletto is in chapter 11 but maybe they will come out of it. You would sure think that there would be a market for such a boat, at least the less expensive non foiling version. Unfortunatlly  it looks too much like the old one to me which was never a good looking boat.

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28 minutes ago, Steve said:

I don't know about the original being ahead of her time design wise, although from a construction standpoint we still hav'nt got to where stiletto was back then. Those were the type of designs that were around back then with the Stiletto and Mac36 in the US, the GBE and Turissimo in New Zealand and numerous similar cats in Aus. What do we have now of the net and tube type production cats. Zip. We did have the R33 which was fairly successful I believe until the great recession. Its very disappointing if Stiletto is in chapter 11 but maybe they will come out of it. You would sure think that there would be a market for such a boat, at least the less expensive non foiling version. Unfortunatlly  it looks too much like the old one to me which was never a good looking boat.

yep, I don't like the fighter jet fairings, much bigger fan of the Raider 302 look.

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On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 6:11 PM, Raz'r said:

yep, I don't like the fighter jet fairings, much bigger fan of the Raider 302 look.

Yes, and the GBE.

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From The Emperor of Multihull Propaganda, Charles K. Chiodi.

Multihulls Magazine, Vol 13 #1, January/February 1987.

"Unfortunately, not all boats have enjoyed this kind of revival.  Stiletto sales went from bad to worse, then out.  When Force Engineering sold the company, the Stiletto was very much in evidence.  The 30 footer started to catch on and the 23 footer was an instant success.  So what went wrong?  One can only speculate.  But Compodyne Company, the recent owners of Stiletto, not only lost their share of the market in a very short time, they don't have a telephone anymore, either."

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On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 7:37 PM, Fat Point Jack said:

From The Emperor of Multihull Propaganda, Charles K. Chiodi.

Multihulls Magazine, Vol 13 #1, January/February 1987.

"Unfortunately, not all boats have enjoyed this kind of revival.  Stiletto sales went from bad to worse, then out.  When Force Engineering sold the company, the Stiletto was very much in evidence.  The 30 footer started to catch on and the 23 footer was an instant success.  So what went wrong?  One can only speculate.  But Compodyne Company, the recent owners of Stiletto, not only lost their share of the market in a very short time, they don't have a telephone anymore, either."

You mean they had a share of a market? How many boats did they build, one that I know of, did they actually produce and sell some of the new ones? I don't know.

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On 3/29/2018 at 9:12 AM, Steve said:

I don't know about the original being ahead of her time design wise, although from a construction standpoint we still hav'nt got to where stiletto was back then. Those were the type of designs that were around back then with the Stiletto and Mac36 in the US, the GBE and Turissimo in New Zealand and numerous similar cats in Aus. What do we have now of the net and tube type production cats. Zip. We did have the R33 which was fairly successful I believe until the great recession. Its very disappointing if Stiletto is in chapter 11 but maybe they will come out of it. You would sure think that there would be a market for such a boat, at least the less expensive non foiling version. Unfortunatlly  it looks too much like the old one to me which was never a good looking boat.

There's still the Torro 34 . But then again i haven't heard or seen anything on that front for awhile .

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11 hours ago, Steve said:

You mean they had a share of a market? How many boats did they build, one that I know of, did they actually produce and sell some of the new ones? I don't know.

I can only speculate what Mr. Chiodi meant in 1987.

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The rep at Annapolis, who was super friendly said they had at least one sold and on its way to Europe on its trailer. Also to the folks who don’t like the look the hatch covers etc, I have to say it shows way better than its looks in photos. I went from not thinking much of it on the screen to sitting on the deck and scheming how to quit my job and start a day charter with one somewhere. That they were offering financing was pretty cool too. My brother works the bar at Rainbow in STX, it would be great to go off the beach there and tear out to Sandy Point with a margarita in my drink sling. Ok back to the cold murky Virginia reality. 

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34 minutes ago, Geese said:

The rep at Annapolis, who was super friendly said they had at least one sold and on its way to Europe on its trailer. Also to the folks who don’t like the look the hatch covers etc, I have to say it shows way better than its looks in photos. I went from not thinking much of it on the screen to sitting on the deck and scheming how to quit my job and start a day charter with one somewhere. That they were offering financing was pretty cool too. My brother works the bar at Rainbow in STX, it would be great to go off the beach there and tear out to Sandy Point with a margarita in my drink sling. Ok back to the cold murky Virginia reality. 

You can always buy a used Reynolds 33. Or if you want to day charter a Macgregor 36 is probably the easiest production cat to get coast guard certified as so many of them have been used for the purpose already. Going all high tech construction is a recipe for failure imho because it is very difficult to keep costs to where an average person could own one. At the time that the Reynolds was being developed there was another cat, the Lightspeed 32 being developed that could have been a competitor but I think they built one while Renolds built many which were fairly conventional construction but plenty fast and priced a lot more affordably as proven by the sales. I suspect it was the recession that did them in along with many others. Cats don't need high tech construction, just sensible appropriate tech.

 

 

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I agree that the high tech is killing the industry, just costs multiples and not unusual for a carbon/epoxy structure to come out heavier than glass/vinylester. People forget that the stinky vapors from polyester and vinylester actually leave the structure, the epoxy you apply to wet out all stays aboard making expensive compaction essential to get an anywhere decent result. For the average Joe who wants to go fast but not looking for the ultimate it probably makes sense to resort to carbon for the mast only - and you better know what you are at with that task too.

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If your carbon/epoxy structures are usually coming out heavier than glass/vinylester then you are doing something wrong... 

    I do agree that carbon is often used in places that are a waste of its properties. Mast stands to gain the most from CF/Epoxy, full keels not so much.

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The second one I built came out to my design weight. Getting anywhere close involves lots of area and volume calculation, realistic panel weight estimation and confirmation along the way. Design in the volume to support your honest weight calculation and she will float on her lines.

It's so easy to add a little something here and there and end up in denial of the result, only nothing weighs nothing so add nothing!

 

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10 hours ago, FrancoisPerus said:

There is still this one as well ! ;) link below to a video. 

https://www.facebook.com/yachtdesigncollective/videos/965674983610499/

OOh, I like that one, have they been successful in selling some.? There's also the Virus boats V8 with the LAR keels which is a little strange on a net and tube cat but looks like a nice cat. Nothing much in the US though .

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Totally agree with the comments about  the excessive use of expensive high tech materials in production boats.  The fact that the original Stiletto 27 is still a fun boat to sail makes that point.  It is a 30 year old design with an antique hull shape, rig and foils; with heave aluminum pipes for beams and absolutely no carbon anywhere.  In spite of all of that, the boats are still actively sailed, raced, and desired.  The lessons learned at Stiletto should be text book reading for anyone wanting to bring a multihull to market.  First of all, although everyone wants a 'fast' boat, only about 10% of the product line will be raced.  When Stiletto had built 200 boats, 20 showed up at the Nationals.  When 300 boats were built, 30 showed up.  Yes, some racers didn't make it, but some of the cruisers did, to take their place.  So, do you create your product for the 10% performance-at-all-cost crowd or the 90% fast-is-fun-and-I-want-to-take-my-family-and-friends crowd?!  The second crowd will be more swayed by a reasonable price than the bragging rights of having a carbon boat.  Interestingly, the Stiletto hull layup weighed 0.6#/sq ft generally (except in built up structural areas).   That's pretty light for 30 year old technology, that doesn't include carbon.  

Original Stiletto also did a good job of recognizing that some of their customers were tinkerers who wanted to upgrade and modify their boats by creating a separate 'Modified' class for racing events.  That was the place for carbon masts and foils (and, at the time, spinnakers and upwind gennakers...as well as sailmakers and other pros).

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The Stiletto Nationals were some of the best days sailing and partying ever! Those Wormwood boys had it goin' on in the late 70's and early 80's. 

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On 4/8/2018 at 9:48 AM, Geese said:

The rep at Annapolis, who was super friendly said they had at least one sold and on its way to Europe on its trailer. Also to the folks who don’t like the look the hatch covers etc, I have to say it shows way better than its looks in photos. I went from not thinking much of it on the screen to sitting on the deck and scheming how to quit my job and start a day charter with one somewhere. That they were offering financing was pretty cool too. My brother works the bar at Rainbow in STX, it would be great to go off the beach there and tear out to Sandy Point with a margarita in my drink sling. Ok back to the cold murky Virginia reality. 

I would like that fighter jet style hatch if one could drive from it, that would be pretty slick actually, being out of the elements, though tacking would be a PIA for distance racing it would be pretty awesome. 

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The fact is any reasonably designed multihull is going to be fast no matter what material its built out of as long as its kept light. The Gougeons Adagio is approaching 50 years old and is still very fast. its built out of plywood and if you were to build a 35ft tri today out of carbon/epoxy at 2400lb  it would be very easy to miss your goal. The Stilletto as a production boat was probably higher tech than almost any production boat built today other than beach cats of course. The Reynolds 33 was low tech and sold quite well until the recession and was plenty fast. I remember when the Reynolds was being developed and actually went to look at Hull # 1 shortly after it was launched, there was lots of talk on the forums and of course the Lightspeed 32 was launched around the same time. There were so many vocal critics of the Reynolds who salivated over the Lightspeed with all its high tech but funny thing nobody bought the thing because it was too expensive but enough people bought the low tech but still fast Reynolds because it was priced right. I don't see that dynamic ever changing.

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