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allene222

What jib halyard should I get

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I get my new mast in a few weeks so I really need to order the new halyards. The wood mast had wire rope and the new one will have some kind of double braid. I would like as close to the 3/16 wire stretch wise. The boat is a Lapworth-36. I looked at my handy stretch calculator, entered 50 pounds, 10:1 winch and 35 feet length and I see that the wire had just under an inch of stretch. I am thinking 3/8 line and look down the list for something similar stretch wise and see WarpSpeed. I have some WarpSpeed for a foreguy on the spin pole and it seems a bit stiff. I know they now sell WarpSpeed II, which I have seen, but not really sure if it is better or worse. A friend has Vectran double braid which I assume is V-100 which he was told was the best. But the calculator says it has quite a bit more stretch. Calculator says 2.7 for what is 9mm line. There is some ambiguity what the breaking strength on different data sheets so maybe the stretch is 2 inches but that is still more than twice WarpSpeed at under 1 inch. The difference is in the stretch spec where WarpSpeed is .44% and V-100 1.2%. But these are different vendors so perhaps different testing methods. Plus, the calculator is old and there may be some choices I am not aware of. I am planning on Tenex for the wing halyards and Amsteel inside Tenex for the main. Those served me well on the old rig. But jib halyard tension is really important so I want something really good there. Looking for advice and counsel.

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Allen, I can't help you on the halyard, but do you have a wooden Lapworth 36? That is a sweet looking boat. Pics?

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Oh, ouch,,, I can here the crack from here, andI'm on the east coast.

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I think I posted this before but here is the full story for anyone who missed it. And if you look closely you can see them heading up, luffing their jib, just to make sure they hit me. I know they didn't do it on purpose and they saw me, but I don't know why I was hit. It is my opinion that they lost control of the boat because they didn't let the main out in their attempt to avoid me. Anyway, their fault, their insurance paid and now I am getting a new rig but 1000 decisions to be made and parts to be fabricated and jib halyard selection to be made. This post is about jib halyard selection but I was asked for pictures. It is wood and we were very lucky that nobody was hurt and the hull was not seriously damaged.

 

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ive been let down by vectran... i have no faith in it especially if it's permanently outside due to its vulnerability to UV.

what about amsteel blue (super low stretch, good uv resistance) and add either smooth ice or flavoured ice? I really like the way amsteel is laid up compared to the core in warpspeed and MLX... much firmer and seems more stable and snag resistant.

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Allen - a good performing low stretch halyard that doesn't break the bank is New England Ropes Sta-Set X. It is a parallel core design. Not quite the performance of the dyneema cored halyards, but still pretty good stretch characteristics with a durable braided polyester cover. Check out the specs and see if that meets your needs.

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I want something with similar stretch to wire which was .92 inches on my selection guide page. 7/16 StaSet-X is 2.14 inches -- too much. One of the goals in putting the boat back together after the traumatic incident is that it be better than it was in every way (within reason). That is the only way I can stay sane.

 

I see there are a number of possibilities on the list if I am willing to go with 5/16 line. I have previously not considered that as I thought going from 7/16 to 3/8 was a fair step but I have had good luck with the 3/8 Tenex so thought that would work. Not sure how handling 5/16 line would be on a halyard. Endura braid stretch at 5/16 is about an inch, which is pretty close to wire. Anyone use that? Others?

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My wing halyards are stripped 10mm Warpspeed and when they fail I'll probably replace them with the same thing (or recore them and reuse the existing cover).

 

I don't recognize exactly what my jib halyard is, but it also is a dyneema core line that is similar to Warpspeed. I don't think it is a Samson product.

 

I don't find Warpspeed to be too stiff.

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Why the hate for Warpspeed? It's kind of the benchmark, non? Anyway, some of the Technoras may work. They're nice & stretchless. More or less.

 

T-900, which is Spectra & Technora cored, Dacron jacket. One of Brion Toss's old fav's, not that it matters. But the aramid stops the creep in the Dyneema.

 

Ultra Tech. Tech-12 Technora core, again, Dacron jacket.

 

Validator SKB. Vectran & Dyneema core. So no creep, & long life. Dacron jacket. Made by Samson.

 

Final option might be an SK-90 or 90-something+ with cover. Though it'll cost.

 

Whatever you choose, throw Reeving Splices into the ends of each halyard (& reefing line). They make it so that swapping out a halyard, or pulling it for inspection is a 3min. job, literally. And on some boats the halyards get pulled after every day of racing, which you could always do if you're worried about UV eating any of yours. Instructions for a Reeving Splice -> http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=926&title=Splicing+Guide+-+Reeving+Eye+Splice They take all of 5min. each to do.

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I'm a fan of New England endure braid. It's mostly an east coast bias. For ease of splicing I like yales ultex plus... I know there are differences but for most applications I feel that a dyneema line with a poly cover is the same regardless who made it.

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Buy some hts dyneema, throw a cover on it. 0.68 @ 20% breaking. We use it on big boat with 3di sails and not noticed an appreciable difference from the vectran we were using.

 

Get fancy with it and you can do a built in softshackle in the halyard.

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Buy some hts dyneema, throw a cover on it. 0.68 @ 20% breaking. We use it on big boat with 3di sails and not noticed an appreciable difference from the vectran we were using.

 

Get fancy with it and you can do a built in softshackle in the halyard.

What he said. It's critical that you size your clutches appropriately, or bulk up the line at the clutch.

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Interesting. I could use 5/16 Amsteel spliced to 5/16 Tenex for an average under $1 a foot, have .71 inches of stretch. It would be trivial to splice and I could overlap the splices for many feet so that the effective diameter would be 7/16 which should be easy to deal with. It is lighter than 3/8 WarpSpeed as well. I might have to tie the Amsteel to a tree and my car to take out the construction stretch but that is doable. I wonder if creep would be an issue with Amsteel after it has been pre stretched? If so, I could use any of a number of 12 strand ropes and splice it to the Tenex which basically cuts the cost per foot in half as Tenex is so cheap. No cover necessary. Nice.

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Isn't 5/16" amsteel overkill? 3/16" wire has a breaking load of only 3500#.

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Isn't 5/16" amsteel overkill? 3/16" wire has a breaking load of only 3500#.

Yes, but Allen has stated stretch is more important. It's all about what the service requirements are. For example a 2x10 joist can span 18', but the deflection would be the very concerning to someone standing underneath.

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Isn't 5/16" amsteel overkill? 3/16" wire has a breaking load of only 3500#.

I am looking only at stretch. Wire is less than half the stretch of Amsteel. 1/4 inch might be fine but there are some advantages to having the same size line for the Amsteel and the Tenex. I saved about 50 pounds with the Aluminum rig so I am not sweating the extra 5 ounces.

 

What I am concerned with is:

1) Is the creep and construction stretch of Amsteel an issue if I pre-stretch it. Samson says it is not HERE

2) Will it be acceptable to have a 5/16 line for the halyard. I had 7/16 with my wood mast.

3) Will the splice work ie, will it get hernias due to differential stretch characteristics. I think I can prevent this by having the splice completely on the winch.

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Sorry to see you lost the wooden mast. Been there done that, had the same thing happen many years ago on our wooden PC sloop. no one hurt except my brand new wooden mast. We replaced with aluminum mast but the boat did not feel the same.

I use a 5/16" Warpspeed II on my current 300 sq. ft. main. striped cover. I have Validator on the jib and both work good. I like the way the warp speed splices better on the cover bury. if I did the jib again it would be Warpspeed II. Warp speed II is $1.83 at APS

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Sorry to see you lost the wooden mast. Been there done that, had the same thing happen many years ago on our wooden PC sloop. no one hurt except my brand new wooden mast. We replaced with aluminum mast but the boat did not feel the same.

I use a 5/16" Warpspeed II on my current 300 sq. ft. main. striped cover. I have Validator on the jib and both work good. I like the way the warp speed splices better on the cover bury. if I did the jib again it would be Warpspeed II. Warp speed II is $1.83 at APS

I guess that means 5/16 is OK and not too hard to work with. My goal is to get close or less stretch than I had with wire. That would mean 3/8 warp speed but only 5/16 Dyneema.

 

I agree with Mezaire that putting the splice on the winch with the Tenex as the tail. Both are 12 single braid and straight forward to splice.

 

We have now addressed two of the three concerns. Last is the creep issue with Amsteel. The article from Samson says it is not an issue with an application like a halyard where the loads vary due to changing wind loads. Their point is that creep is only an issue with constant loads. Under varying loads, the stretch (which is small) will dominate the length variation. I certainly never had an issue with my Amsteel main halyard. Anybody have a bad experience with Amsteel?

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I went with 3/8" Samson MLX for the main halyard on my 9500-lb 32-footer. I arrived there through a set of choices - it is very low stretch, it has a spliceable dyneema core (braided, not parallel-strand like StaSet) with a polester cover (very easy on the hands). And in 3/8" it has more than enough strength to suit my needs in replacing a formerly wire-to-rope halyard, while still working with the existing clutch and self-tailing jaws. In hindsight, I think I could have gone with 5/16" and been in good shape..

 

The thing that comes to mind in this discussion, though, is... with a 50 (60?) year old classic wooden boat, I'm not sure ultra-low-stretch is the best idea. I would think you'd want some "give" in the rigging, so that when shock loads happen the running rigging can absorb it rather than bending the boat. Just $.02

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3/8" (10mm) Vectran or Technora double braid. Don't taper.

 

Looks like Dacron sails, so I would not be concerned about the lack of stretch of the line. Just don't break your sails with too much halyard tension Allen.

 

--Matt

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The thing that comes to mind in this discussion, though, is... with a 50 (60?) year old classic wooden boat, I'm not sure ultra-low-stretch is the best idea. I would think you'd want some "give" in the rigging, so that when shock loads happen the running rigging can absorb it rather than bending the boat. Just $.02

The shock load thing is very important on the sheets and the spinnaker halyard. I am not considering low stretch for those. It is also important that the stem fitting transfer the halyard load to the stem and not just to the deck. I have never had a problem with the jib halyard and it was wire for 55 years. People who have put ultra low stretch on their sheets had ripped up the hull so it is a valid concern, just don't think so much on the halyards. I think a lot of any shock load on the sail would go into the forestay anyway. I kind of think of halyard tension as more about sail shape, and adjustment.

 

3/8 Samson MLX would have twice the stretch of my old halyard which is why I did not put it on the list. I agree it is probably good enough but my goal is same or less stretch.

 

I am feeling pretty positive about the spliced 12 strand halyard idea. I am just not positive about using Amsteel but am open to someone with a different opinion than the one presented in the Samson article. I don't personally think Samson made a convincing case but I also don't think I know more than they do.

 

I found some data on creep in another thread. Not sure what line it was for but it said that at 20% load they say 0.5% creep over 1 year. Over the timeframe of a race, I would see zero creep as my load is much less than 20%. On standing rigging, this could be a problem. Different application.

 

That leaves construction stretch which I am told can be removed by loading the line either in application or ahead of time with a tree and a car. Have not tried the tree and car yet but I have removed construction stretch by stringing out a line and standing on it. It will permanently elongate.

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Your boat flexes more than the halyard stretches - zero stretch lines are important on carbon boats. Stop polishing the turd and go sailing.

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Your boat flexes more than the halyard stretches - zero stretch lines are important on carbon boats. Stop polishing the turd and go sailing.

If I had a mast I would gladly go sailing.

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I just finished a season using 8mm Robline Admiral for my jib halyards. SK78 Dyneema core. Once they were 'set' zero creep and I would highly recommend you take a look. Some guy from here (SA) contacted me and sold me the halyards and assorted other line (tack, spin sheets) for a really good deal, much better than I found anywhere else. Northern Rigging was the company.

 

Very pleased with them. But my existing clutches gotta go, they can't handle the 8mm or the core is too slippery.

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I just finished a season using 8mm Robline Admiral for my jib halyards. SK78 Dyneema core. Once they were 'set' zero creep and I would highly recommend you take a look. Some guy from here (SA) contacted me and sold me the halyards and assorted other line (tack, spin sheets) for a really good deal, much better than I found anywhere else. Northern Rigging was the company.

 

Very pleased with them. But my existing clutches gotta go, they can't handle the 8mm or the core is too slippery.

That looks like a good choice, thanks. Looks similar to Endura Braid but less expensive. I am still tempted to do the Amsteel / Tenex splice... even less expensive and stronger. I also like experimenting and sharing the results as some of you may know. Sometimes I think the only reason I sail is to try different things.

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Just make sure the tenex is the on the winch. Amsteel is slippery and wont hold as well on the winch, uncovered it wont hold in clutch very well either.

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Yes. I had a somewhat different Amstel/Tenex main halyard for several years and had a couple turns of Amstel followed by several of the Tenex. That put the splice on the winch which is a good thing. Thanks.

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So you wan't to have <=0.2% stretch at 500 lbs = 2.2 KN load. German magazine Yacht has tested different 10 mm dyneema ropes at 5 kN. Since stretch is quite linear having 0.2% at 2.2 kN equals to having 0.45% at 5 kN. The lowest stretch was 0.2% for Maffioli DSK75 Race. Plastimo Dyneema AC, FSE Admiral Dyneema and Liros Racer had 0.3% stretch. Marlow D2 Racing had 0.4% and Gleisstein Megatwin Dyneema 0.6% stretch. All of these were SK75 with breaking strength from 50 to 60 kN (given, measured were from 40 kN to 70 kN).

 

Breaking strength and stretch at a given load depends on a square of the diameter. The ones tested for 0.2-0.3% at 10 mm and 5 kN would have <=0.2% at 2.2 kN and 8 mm. Gleisstein Megatwin Dyneema HS (SK78) should also have less than 0.2% at 8 mm size: http://www.gleistein.com/en-geo-yacht-productsheet-for-rope-product/megatwin-dyneema-hs

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I have a question. We're talking about stretch, but in reality what matters is the stretch from the preset halyard tension to the increase in tension in a gust. Anybody know how much halyard tension increases in a gust? I would think you'd have more stretch in the sail, unless you're using really hi-tech sails, than in the halyard.

Personally, I use a vectran jib halyard and dyneema main halyard, but I have a roller furling jib.

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Interesting. I could use 5/16 Amsteel spliced to 5/16 Tenex for an average under $1 a foot, have .71 inches of stretch. It would be trivial to splice and I could overlap the splices for many feet so that the effective diameter would be 7/16 which should be easy to deal with. It is lighter than 3/8 WarpSpeed as well. I might have to tie the Amsteel to a tree and my car to take out the construction stretch but that is doable. I wonder if creep would be an issue with Amsteel after it has been pre stretched? If so, I could use any of a number of 12 strand ropes and splice it to the Tenex which basically cuts the cost per foot in half as Tenex is so cheap. No cover necessary. Nice.

This is the 100% best option, and the cheapest

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1) I want the stretch to be as low or lower than what it was before the accident. Just because.

2) The jib I use most of the time is a mylar laminate with strings in the center. While they are polyester strings, the sail doesn't stretch much.

3) I am pretty sure it won't hurt so why not. What we came up with here is cheaper than StaSet and almost certainly better. Win-win.

4) I race one design and my main competitor has a Vectran halyard. Of course, he also has a kevlar jib but it made a huge difference for him when he went from StaSet to his Vectran halyard so again, why not?

5) Mainly a repeat of reason #1, I want the boat to be better than it was before I was hit in every way I can. Keeps me sane.

 

I have been thinking more about the Amsteel / Tenex design. The Tenex is 3.2 pounds per 100 feet and the Amsteel 2.7 pounds per 100 feet. One goal was that the halyard not sky if you let go. This is why I didn't want to use stripped line or go with a cover over dyneema but instead am planning on using a splice. The Amsteel section will be 1.08 pounds and the Tenex section 1.22 pounds but the shackle is .36 pounds so the thing might sky until it tries to lift the shackle and then stop. Seems like it will meet that goal. The 5/16 Amsteel should be just so strong that any imperfections should just not be noticeable. I am not worried about the pound of weight from the part of the halyard going up the mast. I saved 50 pounds going to the aluminum mast after all.

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I was searching on another topic and found my old post so thought I would update.  I now have one and a half seasons and have found the Amsteel/ Tenex combination to work well.  The splice, which is on the winch, is trivial to make between these two 12 strand lines.  The similar size of the two lines means nothing goes skyward if I let go.  

The thing I wanted to add was that I did a pre stretch on the halyard.  I anchored the line on a tree and tied a 4x4 with a winch on it to a tree 50 feet away.  It was a 30 power winch with a 18 inch torque wrench as the handle.  100 ft-pounds on the handle x 30 was 3000 pounds and at that stretch I could stand on the line, which was maybe a foot off the ground, without it touching the ground.  The most I can get on the halyard on the boat is about 500 pounds so this should be sufficient pre stretch.

I have had great results with the new rig and find the new halyard works great.  I ended up switching the wing halyards to combinations of Amsteel and Tenex as well.  The stretch of straight polyester was not working for us on a free flying reaching sail we use.  That was a long story which included blowing up a cheek block, getting bullet proof replacements, and two speed winches back at the cockpit for the wing halyards.

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Allene, no matter what you do, your halyards will benefit from protection from sun and weather. In a perfect world, this means pulling them out of the spar and leaving messengers to take the brunt of these natural enemies. Otherwise, if you have internal halyards, you can 'sky' the halyards and then put the tails in a bag. Of course, the halyards will get more protection if the protective bag is hung as close to the mast exits as possible.

Although the train has left the station on halyard selection, I would have suggested 12-strand braided Vectran for the jib and main halyards, with a milked-on braided polyester cover from a double braid polyester line. That avoids the static-load, elongation issue of a highly-loaded spectra halyard. This kind of halyard worked great on a Schock 35 I sailed on a couple of decades ago, in-expensive, low stretch and easy handling. On that boat, I used spectra 12 strand for the core of our spinnaker halyards, on the theory that a small amount of stretch would reduce shock loading on the kite.

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And if the halyard is covered, don't forget to stitch the cover to the core in the way of the stoppers and winches.

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1 hour ago, equivocator said:

Allene, no matter what you do, your halyards will benefit from protection from sun and weather. In a perfect world, this means pulling them out of the spar and leaving messengers to take the brunt of these natural enemies. Otherwise, if you have internal halyards, you can 'sky' the halyards and then put the tails in a bag. Of course, the halyards will get more protection if the protective bag is hung as close to the mast exits as possible.

Although the train has left the station on halyard selection, I would have suggested 12-strand braided Vectran for the jib and main halyards, with a milked-on braided polyester cover from a double braid polyester line. That avoids the static-load, elongation issue of a highly-loaded spectra halyard. This kind of halyard worked great on a Schock 35 I sailed on a couple of decades ago, in-expensive, low stretch and easy handling. On that boat, I used spectra 12 strand for the core of our spinnaker halyards, on the theory that a small amount of stretch would reduce shock loading on the kite.

Vectran is old and outdated. I highly recommend not doing this. No boats i race on at this point use it, and do not rig my own stuff with it (aside from that one i got for free from a bigger boat that changed to Dynema). Modern Dynema has very little stretch and negligible creep. It's slippery and easy to splice, holds up better in UV, around tight turns, etc. It's basially better in every way aside from up front cost. 

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