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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
Sportboat Jeff

Melges 40 - Ho Lee Fuk

265 posts in this topic

 

Ker 40/42/etc - suborned by Fast 40 handicap rule and the fact that brits seem to hate one design over a certain size.

Brits? I don't think it's Brits. The seriously wealthy don't much like OD.

 

 

 

Huhwhat? Every billionaire in the sport is in one-design. Torborn just won the RC44 worlds, Larry did it a few years back. The Devos' spent half a decade in the Melges 32, (which they said was way more fun than their handicap racing boat) before getting into the Marstrom 32, and several kings and princes have been or are in the GC32, M32, Farr 40, or TP52, which has such a narrow box that it's pretty close to OD. Even those with offshore handicap boats have tended to race one-design for their fun. See Robertissima for instance, or Zensstrom, or Goranson - all winners of major RORC races in their 'big boats', but plenty active in their other 52/44/32 fleets.

 

The pom super wealthy are perhaps different?

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The owners who placed the first orders wanted a monohull, in part because they didn't want to flip over, which eventually all course racing multis will do. Also because they wanted to be able to do coastal race records, which are not always open to multis.

 

 

 

looks like a fun boat.

If the point is to just simply to go as fast as possible per dollar spent then a multihull is probably the way to go.

but maybe if the chosen multihull goes so fast it spreads the fleet out too much, which somewhat reduces tactics and boat handling as aspects of the competition which OD people seem to expect and enjoy.

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Every billionaire in the sport is in one-design.

 

How about every fucking racing superyacht in the world? J-Class is full of billionaires and it's a box rule.

 

Comanche? Wild Oats XI? Rambler 88? Sayonara way back when? Larry Ellison in the ACC Class? They all love playing the game. It's part of the excitement that your dollars buy you. That you can get an edge by being richer and better and more innovative than the other guy. Which consequently is exactly how they became billionaires in the first place.

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Fuck me you guys need to get on SA facebook or you are missing a lot of shit.The above video was shot outside Amsterdam last week, full tour of the Holland COmposites factory, including G4 with new foiling controls, discussion of the F4, the DNA F1, and even something about the NYYC F30, but they hid all that shit from me. It's a M&M, designed as a new NYYC 42 and whatever they had before that. Pushed hard by Malcolm Gefter, who owns a Marstrom 32 and wants something as cool as the GC but better for old guys.

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Every billionaire in the sport is in one-design.

 

How about every fucking racing superyacht in the world? J-Class is full of billionaires and it's a box rule.

 

Comanche? Wild Oats XI? Rambler 88? Sayonara way back when? Larry Ellison in the ACC Class? They all love playing the game. It's part of the excitement that your dollars buy you. That you can get an edge by being richer and better and more innovative than the other guy. Which consequently is exactly how they became billionaires in the first place.

 

 

 

J/class racing. Cool story.

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Fuck me you guys need to get on SA facebook or you are missing a lot of shit. The above video was shot outside Amsterdam last week, full tour of the Holland COmposites factory, including G4 with new foiling controls, discussion of the F4, the DNA F1, and even something about the NYYC F30, but they hid all that shit from me. It's a M&M, designed as a new NYYC 42 and whatever they had before that. Pushed hard by Malcolm Gefter, who owns a Marstrom 32 and wants something as cool as the GC but better for old guys.

SA facebook?? no thank you. I hear enough of your BS on the SA website.

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Fuck me you guys need to get on SA facebook or you are missing a lot of shit. The above video was shot outside Amsterdam last week, full tour of the Holland COmposites factory, including G4 with new foiling controls, discussion of the F4, the DNA F1, and even something about the NYYC F30, but they hid all that shit from me. It's a M&M, designed as a new NYYC 42 and whatever they had before that. Pushed hard by Malcolm Gefter, who owns a Marstrom 32 and wants something as cool as the GC but better for old guys.

SA facebook?? no thank you. I hear enough of your BS on the SA website.

 

Ha, Why all the hate for Clean... At least he is trying to put shit out there... Join the 21st century for christ sakes and stop bashing shit that 3/4 of the known world are actually using. Ya don't have to put anything out there and some of the content is decent. Frankly, if you are not at least checking out some of the business and content sites you are no better than Trump... (OOPS, he actually uses that shit.....).. <_<

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Ker 40/42/etc - suborned by Fast 40 handicap rule and the fact that brits seem to hate one design over a certain size.

Brits? I don't think it's Brits. The seriously wealthy don't much like OD.

 

 

Huhwhat? Every billionaire in the sport is in one-design.

 

Apart from the ones in TP52s, for instance.

 

Apart from the ones building record-setters.

 

Apart from the J-class owners.

 

Or the ones looking for line honours in the Sydney-Hobart or the Fastnet.

 

Yeah, all those sailing billionaires. Apart from those.

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Ker 40/42/etc - suborned by Fast 40 handicap rule and the fact that brits seem to hate one design over a certain size.

Brits? I don't think it's Brits. The seriously wealthy don't much like OD.

 

 

Huhwhat? Every billionaire in the sport is in one-design.

 

Apart from the ones in TP52s, for instance.

 

Apart from the ones building record-setters.

 

Apart from the J-class owners.

 

Or the ones looking for line honours in the Sydney-Hobart or the Fastnet.

 

Yeah, all those sailing billionaires. Apart from those.

 

Look... for every one of those, there's one in one design AND some of the guys who build custom go fast line honor boats are in one design classes as well.

 

Many of these guys like competition, not just going out on the course and knowing they'll be first to finish.

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Fuck me you guys need to get on SA facebook or you are missing a lot of shit. The above video was shot outside Amsterdam last week, full tour of the Holland COmposites factory, including G4 with new foiling controls, discussion of the F4, the DNA F1, and even something about the NYYC F30, but they hid all that shit from me. It's a M&M, designed as a new NYYC 42 and whatever they had before that. Pushed hard by Malcolm Gefter, who owns a Marstrom 32 and wants something as cool as the GC but better for old guys.

SA facebook?? no thank you. I hear enough of your BS on the SA website.

 

Ha, Why all the hate for Clean... At least he is trying to put shit out there... Join the 21st century for christ sakes and stop bashing shit that 3/4 of the known world are actually using. Ya don't have to put anything out there and some of the content is decent. Frankly, if you are not at least checking out some of the business and content sites you are no better than Trump... (OOPS, he actually uses that shit.....).. <_<

 

 

+1, but every second and third word is 'Gunboat' and 'multihull'.

 

It's like having bible bashers knocking on your front door every weekend.

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Fuck me you guys need to get on SA facebook or you are missing a lot of shit. The above video was shot outside Amsterdam last week, full tour of the Holland COmposites factory, including G4 with new foiling controls, discussion of the F4, the DNA F1, and even something about the NYYC F30, but they hid all that shit from me. It's a M&M, designed as a new NYYC 42 and whatever they had before that. Pushed hard by Malcolm Gefter, who owns a Marstrom 32 and wants something as cool as the GC but better for old guys.

SA facebook?? no thank you. I hear enough of your BS on the SA website.

 

Ha, Why all the hate for Clean... At least he is trying to put shit out there... Join the 21st century for christ sakes and stop bashing shit that 3/4 of the known world are actually using. Ya don't have to put anything out there and some of the content is decent. Frankly, if you are not at least checking out some of the business and content sites you are no better than Trump... (OOPS, he actually uses that shit.....).. <_<

 

 

+1, but every second and third word is 'Gunboat' and 'multihull'.

 

It's like having bible bashers knocking on your front door every weekend.

 

 

And total disrespect and scorn for old lead mine OD classes like Etchells, that attract the top sailing talent worldwide, whenever there is a major event. I think the Lightning class might even get more top talent than the Etchells? Yes, foiling and bleeding edge racing is very cool and we can all appreciate it, but it's not available for the 99% of us who often race hundreds of local races each year, in OD and Handicap fleets, all over the world...

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Fuck me you guys need to get on SA facebook or you are missing a lot of shit. The above video was shot outside Amsterdam last week, full tour of the Holland COmposites factory, including G4 with new foiling controls, discussion of the F4, the DNA F1, and even something about the NYYC F30, but they hid all that shit from me. It's a M&M, designed as a new NYYC 42 and whatever they had before that. Pushed hard by Malcolm Gefter, who owns a Marstrom 32 and wants something as cool as the GC but better for old guys.

SA facebook?? no thank you. I hear enough of your BS on the SA website.

Ha, Why all the hate for Clean... At least he is trying to put shit out there... Join the 21st century for christ sakes and stop bashing shit that 3/4 of the known world are actually using. Ya don't have to put anything out there and some of the content is decent. Frankly, if you are not at least checking out some of the business and content sites you are no better than Trump... (OOPS, he actually uses that shit.....).. <_<

+1, but every second and third word is 'Gunboat' and 'multihull'.

 

It's like having bible bashers knocking on your front door every weekend.

And total disrespect and scorn for old lead mine OD classes like Etchells, that attract the top sailing talent worldwide, whenever there is a major event. I think the Lightning class might even get more top talent than the Etchells? Yes, foiling and bleeding edge racing is very cool and we can all appreciate it, but it's not available for the 99% of us who often race hundreds of local races each year, in OD and Handicap fleets, all over the world...

Sport shrinking

Great 4kt shit box sailing everywhere

Great sailing in strong lead mine OD fleets everywhere

Very strong HS/junior sailing scene (at least around here)

 

But according to this corner of the interwebs the only future us foiling caTs in Europe

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Fuck me you guys need to get on SA facebook or you are missing a lot of shit. The above video was shot outside Amsterdam last week, full tour of the Holland COmposites factory, including G4 with new foiling controls, discussion of the F4, the DNA F1, and even something about the NYYC F30, but they hid all that shit from me. It's a M&M, designed as a new NYYC 42 and whatever they had before that. Pushed hard by Malcolm Gefter, who owns a Marstrom 32 and wants something as cool as the GC but better for old guys.

 

 

Have you considered moving all your videos that are on Facebook also over to YouTube? It would be great to be able to watch them there.

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Fuck me you guys need to get on SA facebook or you are missing a lot of shit. The above video was shot outside Amsterdam last week, full tour of the Holland COmposites factory, including G4 with new foiling controls, discussion of the F4, the DNA F1, and even something about the NYYC F30, but they hid all that shit from me. It's a M&M, designed as a new NYYC 42 and whatever they had before that. Pushed hard by Malcolm Gefter, who owns a Marstrom 32 and wants something as cool as the GC but better for old guys.

 

Biggest problem wasn't the boards

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Somedude:

 

Fact of the matter is we have a cold hard reality to face:

 

Most of those fleets aren't growing. They're shrinking. Why? People are getting old.

 

Most young people don't like those boats. Most young sailors don't like those boats. Those boats will not attract new, young owners to the sport of sailing. FAST will.

 

Anywho Shriner said the M40 was a blast, hope it lives up to the hype.

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Somedude:

 

Fact of the matter is we have a cold hard reality to face:

 

Most of those fleets aren't growing. They're shrinking. Why? People are getting old.

 

Most young people don't like those boats. Most young sailors don't like those boats. Those boats will not attract new, young owners to the sport of sailing. FAST will.

 

Anywho Shriner said the M40 was a blast, hope it lives up to the hype.

Who are you kidding. The only people who will be able to afford fast boats that are young are trust fund babies. That's not the majority of sailing folk. Not to mention, the big question is, when the older generation retires, how many sailors will then be left.

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any predictions on what happens to the M32 class once all the DeVos money goes in the M40s?

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Somedude:

 

Fact of the matter is we have a cold hard reality to face:

 

Most of those fleets aren't growing. They're shrinking. Why? People are getting old.

 

Most young people don't like those boats. Most young sailors don't like those boats. Those boats will not attract new, young owners to the sport of sailing. FAST will.

 

Anywho Shriner said the M40 was a blast, hope it lives up to the hype.

 

Are you for real with the name dropping, dude? Did Shriner spooge on your face when he told you that too? Fuck off. Dropping his name to sound like you know what you're talking about insults him and denigrates you in the eyes of people who actually know.

 

Young people don't sail because those with the money don't have the time to sail and those with the time don't have the money - or if they do have the money to buy a boat then they certainly don't have the money to race it.

 

Believe me, the problem is not WANTING it. There are enough cool boats out there that milennials aren't wanting for something to lust after. The problem is that they lust after what they will realistically never have the financial basis to reach.

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Somedude:

 

Fact of the matter is we have a cold hard reality to face:

 

Most of those fleets aren't growing. They're shrinking. Why? People are getting old.

 

Most young people don't like those boats. Most young sailors don't like those boats. Those boats will not attract new, young owners to the sport of sailing. FAST will.

 

Anywho Shriner said the M40 was a blast, hope it lives up to the hype.

 

Are you for real with the name dropping, dude? Did Shriner spooge on your face when he told you that too? Fuck off. Dropping his name to sound like you know what you're talking about insults him and denigrates you in the eyes of people who actually know.

 

Young people don't sail because those with the money don't have the time to sail and those with the time don't have the money - or if they do have the money to buy a boat then they certainly don't have the money to race it.

 

Believe me, the problem is not WANTING it. There are enough cool boats out there that milennials aren't wanting for something to lust after. The problem is that they lust after what they will realistically never have the financial basis to reach.

 

Lol you all misunderstand.

 

Looking ten years down the road you think 30-40 year olds who have the time and means to sail are going to want to race Etchells? Don't get me wrong. Love the Etchells fleet. Had great times family sailing on it. Just don't see it attracting the next generation of owners.

 

As for the M40 comment... merely trying to bring this thread back to what it is supposed to be about- the Melges 40, which looks like an awesome ride.

 

We don't have jack for info on it after having gone out and sailed now. Merely saying one person said they enjoyed their sail on it.

 

Jesus... calm down bud

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If the etchells fleet keeps putting double digit numbers of olympic medalists in their fleets I can't see why it wouldn't lurch along forever.

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If the etchells fleet keeps putting double digit numbers of olympic medalists in their fleets I can't see why it wouldn't lurch along forever.

Most definitely will. Just like several boats... it will slowly decrease and most likely never truly die off, which is awesome, because that fleet has a shit load of history and I'll always have a soft spot for it, like several other "4kt shitboxes" or whatever they're called these days.

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If the etchells fleet keeps putting double digit numbers of olympic medalists in their fleets I can't see why it wouldn't lurch along forever.

Most definitely will. Just like several boats... it will slowly decrease and most likely never truly die off, which is awesome, because that fleet has a shit load of history and I'll always have a soft spot for it, like several other "4kt shitboxes" or whatever they're called these days.

 

Be sure to tell Shriner you think it's a fleet that people shouldn't want to sail in next time you're tonsil deep on his knob.

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If the etchells fleet keeps putting double digit numbers of olympic medalists in their fleets I can't see why it wouldn't lurch along forever.

Most definitely will. Just like several boats... it will slowly decrease and most likely never truly die off, which is awesome, because that fleet has a shit load of history and I'll always have a soft spot for it, like several other "4kt shitboxes" or whatever they're called these days.

Be sure to tell Shriner you think it's a fleet that people shouldn't want to sail in next time you're tonsil deep on his knob.

+1 for excellent trolling and jackassery today

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Somedude:

 

Fact of the matter is we have a cold hard reality to face:

 

Most of those fleets aren't growing. They're shrinking. Why? People are getting old.

 

Most young people don't like those boats. Most young sailors don't like those boats. Those boats will not attract new, young owners to the sport of sailing. FAST will.

 

Anywho Shriner said the M40 was a blast, hope it lives up to the hype.

Hell I'm getting old too. The grand prix racing (for free on OPB) was a blast, but got kids, student loans, trying to make a buck etc, so having a blast in 4kt SBs for now

 

My point is, give the accessible parts of the sport some ink. The kids that get the bug will keep sailing, but they get the bug because someone took them racing. Some will get to sail M40s, foiling cats and 100 foot canters but not many.

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Somedude:

 

Fact of the matter is we have a cold hard reality to face:

 

Most of those fleets aren't growing. They're shrinking. Why? People are getting old.

 

Most young people don't like those boats. Most young sailors don't like those boats. Those boats will not attract new, young owners to the sport of sailing. FAST will.

 

Anywho Shriner said the M40 was a blast, hope it lives up to the hype.

Hell I'm getting old too. The grand prix racing (for free on OPB) was a blast, but got kids, student loans, trying to make a buck etc, so having a blast in 4kt SBs for now

 

My point is, give the accessible parts of the sport some ink. The kids that get the bug will keep sailing, but they get the bug because someone took them racing. Some will get to sail M40s, foiling cats and 100 foot canters but not many.

 

Agreed.

 

And yes a little love for some of the big fleet 4ktsb events would be great, although user submitted articles are usually posted from what I know- but when I'm at an event I'm certainly not thinking about writing a recap lol

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Why does that thing look like a pain box to crew on?

 

Crossing at the front of the cockpit looks about as much fun as a J-24.

 

J-24 really isn't that bad. Come foredeck for me in a Shark 24...

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Honestly, there's no innovation in the above deck layout. In fact, it looks like a 5 year old layout job. Exposed above decks jib tracks? No obvious deck recessed staysail furler? Stantions that project beyond the sheer line and make the boat ineleibigle for certain categories of OSR races? It genuinely looks like they took the worst parts of a Farr 400 and dropped them on a new boat.

 

 

Those primary winches are EXTREMELY agricultural for the job they're doing. Compared to a Carkeek 40 or Botin 40/44 those winches stick out like a sore thumb. Metal, two speed, pro-Sumer pieces of garbage that are three inches taller and 4 pounds heavier than they need to be. They belong in the pit of a grand soleil 50, not the primaries of a Grand Prix racer. every 40 foot race boat built since 2006 has had three speed carbon primary winches. Those are...not

 

Also, I'm only seeing a single engage/disengage and "overdrive" button on the deck there by the pedestal. Meaning the bikes guy can't select into certain winches? Tha fuck? What, are both winches going to be engaged all the time except when they're not?!

 

The only thing on deck that makes sense is the runner guy getting the keel Controls. He who controls gear shifting should also get the keel. Still undefined which person onboard controls the canard. Is it line or hydraulic driven?

So the boat is designed by Botin, not Farr. The boatyard that built the boat has nothing to do with the fundamental deck design. This thing will never go close to offshore. Its so out there that it will only race in class. Certainly not primarily under handicap rules. This also takes out the need for a staysail as it will mostly see windward leeward racing.

 

Good on you for spending other peoples money but that winch package that you are bagging is well into the 50k USD range. Add any fancy shit like that and the price will go right through the roof. Also not sure which C40's you have sailed on but none have driven runner winches (not even all 52s have that function) and none have driven main winches either....

 

Curious if you have any idea about what all that shit costs to add to a boat that has PLENTY of expensive bells and whistles. For example. Just adding a standard string drop system from harken is about 12k USD. Driving just one additional main sheet winch is going to set you back an additional 15k USD....

 

In fact if you even had half a clue about what you are talking about you would know that each button engages the relevant primary and the overdrive selection system is now integrated into the pedestal....

 

So yes there is value engineering happening there for a PRODUCTION boat.

+1, nothing to add.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, you forgot about the canting keel, I don't know of any other W/L racer which has one.

Schock 40

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Honestly, there's no innovation in the above deck layout. In fact, it looks like a 5 year old layout job. Exposed above decks jib tracks? No obvious deck recessed staysail furler? Stantions that project beyond the sheer line and make the boat ineleibigle for certain categories of OSR races? It genuinely looks like they took the worst parts of a Farr 400 and dropped them on a new boat.

 

 

Those primary winches are EXTREMELY agricultural for the job they're doing. Compared to a Carkeek 40 or Botin 40/44 those winches stick out like a sore thumb. Metal, two speed, pro-Sumer pieces of garbage that are three inches taller and 4 pounds heavier than they need to be. They belong in the pit of a grand soleil 50, not the primaries of a Grand Prix racer. every 40 foot race boat built since 2006 has had three speed carbon primary winches. Those are...not

 

Also, I'm only seeing a single engage/disengage and "overdrive" button on the deck there by the pedestal. Meaning the bikes guy can't select into certain winches? Tha fuck? What, are both winches going to be engaged all the time except when they're not?!

 

The only thing on deck that makes sense is the runner guy getting the keel Controls. He who controls gear shifting should also get the keel. Still undefined which person onboard controls the canard. Is it line or hydraulic driven?

So the boat is designed by Botin, not Farr. The boatyard that built the boat has nothing to do with the fundamental deck design. This thing will never go close to offshore. Its so out there that it will only race in class. Certainly not primarily under handicap rules. This also takes out the need for a staysail as it will mostly see windward leeward racing.

 

Good on you for spending other peoples money but that winch package that you are bagging is well into the 50k USD range. Add any fancy shit like that and the price will go right through the roof. Also not sure which C40's you have sailed on but none have driven runner winches (not even all 52s have that function) and none have driven main winches either....

 

Curious if you have any idea about what all that shit costs to add to a boat that has PLENTY of expensive bells and whistles. For example. Just adding a standard string drop system from harken is about 12k USD. Driving just one additional main sheet winch is going to set you back an additional 15k USD....

 

In fact if you even had half a clue about what you are talking about you would know that each button engages the relevant primary and the overdrive selection system is now integrated into the pedestal....

 

So yes there is value engineering happening there for a PRODUCTION boat.

+1, nothing to add.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, you forgot about the canting keel, I don't know of any other W/L racer which has one.

Schock 40

 

Farr 11s A dog that barked its way straight to the toilet

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any predictions on what happens to the M32 class once all the DeVos money goes in the M40s?

 

Hoping for resale values to plummet so the rest of us can afford one

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any predictions on what happens to the M32 class once all the DeVos money goes in the M40s?

 

Hoping for resale values to plummet so the rest of us can afford one

 

Pretty sure resale is already there.

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Hoping for resale values to plummet so the rest of us can afford one

Not likely to be many bargains, other than perhaps the broken/repaired boats.

Any idea what a new suit of sails will cost?

Most of "the rest of us" may find the M32 still to be out of reach.

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Hoping for resale values to plummet so the rest of us can afford one

Any idea what a new suit of sails will cost?

 

 

I've seen $25-30K bandied about for non-3Di's

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any predictions on what happens to the M32 class once all the DeVos money goes in the M40s?

 

Hoping for resale values to plummet so the rest of us can afford one

 

 

Most of us can't afford one even if it were given for free.

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A main, 3 jibs, and 2 kites:

 

43K for 3Di RAW Pre-Tax

 

41K for 3DL Pre-Tax

 

The longevity of RAW would genuinely make me think twice about saving money on 3DL. That said, no 32 footer should EVER need 40+ thousand dollars in sails. That's just ridiculous. And those are the stock sails btw. Most of the guys at the top of the class are getting custom tweaked designs for their boats so add another 10+ grand for custom sails.


 

 

 

 

 

i like.....

 

 

Why? It is literally doing nothing that any other 40 foot buoy boat can do? They're really not going all that quick off the breeze either. That apparent speed is from a camera angle trick done by holding the camera close to the water to exaggerate speed.

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A main, 3 jibs, and 2 kites:

 

43K for 3Di RAW Pre-Tax

 

41K for 3DL Pre-Tax

 

The longevity of RAW would genuinely make me think twice about saving money on 3DL. That said, no 32 footer should EVER need 40+ thousand dollars in sails. That's just ridiculous. And those are the stock sails btw. Most of the guys at the top of the class are getting custom tweaked designs for their boats so add another 10+ grand for custom sails.

 

 

 

 

 

i like.....

 

 

Why? It is literally doing nothing that any other 40 foot buoy boat can do? They're really not going all that quick off the breeze either. That apparent speed is from a camera angle trick done by holding the camera close to the water to exaggerate speed.

 

 

 

because i appreciate boats. i also like 12 meters, optis, boston whalers and most water craft. i like the melges 40 because of many features like the canting keel, the good looking sail plan, the pedestal and a couple of other features. that's why.

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So everyone talked shit when I said the boat was underwinched for its size and intended purpose. Yet look at all the sea trials footage. During every Gybe I see three guys standing there manually tractoring/overhauling the kite sheet by hand like its a j/105. Seriously Melges?

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So everyone talked shit when I said the boat was underwinched for its size and intended purpose. Yet look at all the sea trials footage. During every Gybe I see three guys standing there manually tractoring/overhauling the kite sheet by hand like its a j/105. Seriously Melges?

Any 40 footer asym boat does that, especially in the light.

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Not one with a properly specc'd winch package. If it was done right the pedestal should be able to get the line moving faster than any human hands can improve on.

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Looking at more video, you CANT say that any race boat built with a pedestal in the last 6 years has had a Mastman jumping the kite halyard. WTF

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Not one with a properly specc'd winch package. If it was done right the pedestal should be able to get the line moving faster than any human hands can improve on.

 

 

Looking at more video, you CANT say that any race boat built with a pedestal in the last 6 years has had a Mastman jumping the kite halyard. WTF

I was thinking those two things were because a lot of these sailors come from the Melges 32s and that is how they do it. Sticking with what is familiar

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Faster than a TP52!

 

Maybe a 2006 TP52 with the pole still.

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any predictions on what happens to the M32 class once all the DeVos money goes in the M40s?

 

Hoping for resale values to plummet so the rest of us can afford one

 

 

Most of us can't afford one even if it were given for free.

 

 

 

The Caribbean melges32 owners are all quite proud of how little they spend on their boats. There ain't much to the thing, as long as you don't have water in the core or drop the rig on the ground. Anyone who thinks m32s have to cost a fortune to own, give Jaime or Luis or any other guys and gals on Caribbean Melges 32 on FB and learn firsthand why that's a myth thanks to competent construction, simple design, and the plethora of second hand sails out there.

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So, this boat is either sex on the water or "meh"

 

I vote Meh

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any predictions on what happens to the M32 class once all the DeVos money goes in the M40s?

Hoping for resale values to plummet so the rest of us can afford one

Most of us can't afford one even if it were given for free.

 

The Caribbean melges32 owners are all quite proud of how little they spend on their boats. There ain't much to the thing, as long as you don't have water in the core or drop the rig on the ground. Anyone who thinks m32s have to cost a fortune to own, give Jaime or Luis or any other guys and gals on Caribbean Melges 32 on FB and learn firsthand why that's a myth thanks to competent construction, simple design, and the plethora of second hand sails out there.

Might hold true as long as it's the only M32 in the fleet.

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I really don't know sht from shinola, but this looks to be a pretty nice mono-maran machine. One question from watching the vids though, is the transom sitting a bit low in the water as she is sailing with the A Sym up, as well as noticed upwind?

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You just can't tell how good it'll be until it races and how well they get the fleet numbers up to critical mass.

 

The Farr 400 looked amazing but never was there quite such a bang and a whimper for a Farr product.

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Plenty of bangs and whimpers from Azzam the VO70...just sayin! :blink:

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There ain't much to the thing, as long as you don't have water in the core or drop the rig on the ground.

Shit happens. Out of curiosity Clean, have you ever been a PBO? I don't just mean for an antique J24.

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There ain't much to the thing, as long as you don't have water in the core or drop the rig on the ground.

Shit happens. Out of curiosity Clean, have you ever been a PBO? I don't just mean for an antique J24.

 

HA!

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Hey Buddy, 2001 asailing Oddity just called and wants their Monolith back...

Hey Buddy, 2001 asailing Oddity just called and wants their Monolith back...

did you warn them about the pending 2008 financial crisis!?!?!

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Hey Buddy, 2001 asailing Oddity just called and wants their Monolith back...

Hey Buddy, 2001 asailing Oddity just called and wants their Monolith back...

did you warn them about the pending 2008 financial crisis!?!?!

 

no worries troof,,, the kid probably has no idea what u are talking about. Just saw it all the way through for the first time in 20 yrs last weekend...

 

"will i dream Dr" ;)

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Hey Buddy, 2001 asailing Oddity just called and wants their Monolith back...

Hey Buddy, 2001 asailing Oddity just called and wants their Monolith back...

did you warn them about the pending 2008 financial crisis!?!?!

 

no worries troof,,, the kid probably has no idea what u are talking about. Just saw it all the way through for the first time in 20 yrs last weekend...

 

"will i dream Dr" ;)

 

oh no, i've seen it a few times. My dad and i's favorite sci-fi movie. Works best with a good stereo cranked up to 11.

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Ok Ok, Nothing to see here then carry on... :)

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oh no, i've seen it a few times. My dad and i's favorite sci-fi movie. Works best with a good stereo cranked up to 11.

"i's"???

WTF?

A new low...even for SA

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oh no, i've seen it a few times. My dad and i's favorite sci-fi movie. Works best with a good stereo cranked up to 11.

"i's"???

WTF?

A new low...even for SA

 

meh.

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So, this boat is either sex on the water or "meh"

 

I vote Meh

 

 

I'm curious razr..... is there anything you don't think is "meh"?

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So, this boat is either sex on the water or "meh"

 

I vote Meh

 

 

I'm curious razr..... is there anything you don't think is "meh"?

 

 

 

Sure - the new crop of foilers, the 32' cats, etc, etc.

This is just another mono. a little more refined. still does mono speeds upwind.

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I can't help thinking an F-33 would smoke them. For less. With cruising accommodations. And offshore cred.

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My G2 will be smoked by this Melges.

But my crew is my family so I don't mind.

 

See you nroose. :)

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So, this boat is either sex on the water or "meh"

 

I vote Meh

 

 

I'm curious razr..... is there anything you don't think is "meh"?

 

 

 

Sure - the new crop of foilers, the 32' cats, etc, etc.

This is just another mono. a little more refined. still does mono speeds upwind.

 

 

 

Sure, cats may go faster. But you're still gay if you're sailing a multi-hull. NTTAWWT.

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I saw the Melges 40 out sailing this weekend while we were club racing. Roughly about 12-14kts of wind and she looked seriously powered up. I was drooling, its a sweet looking ride.

 

The Premier boys are putting in some serious overtime on the boat getting it tuned and sorted and they say its coming along really well. I can't wait to see the rest of the boats come off the production line and in the water here this spring. I hope it continues to gain traction as a class. It looks like an amazingly fun boat to sail......

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You just can't tell how good it'll be until it races and how well they get the fleet numbers up to critical mass.

 

The Farr 400 looked amazing but never was there quite such a bang and a whimper for a Farr product.

 

 

Critical mass isn't in the design brief for this boat. From the interviews it sounds like this boat is for 10-20 well heeled owners for a European circuit.

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Critical mass isn't in the design brief for this boat. From the interviews it sounds like this boat is for 10-20 well heeled owners for a European circuit.

So 10-20 is the critical mass.

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Critical mass isn't in the design brief for this boat. From the interviews it sounds like this boat is for 10-20 well heeled owners for a European circuit.

So 10-20 is the critical mass.

 

How many 1D35's Farr 40's raced big time. Cut that in half because its the economy stupid. Some got rich and moved up the food chain some moved down to little boats. Probably find 20 cats to buy one

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Critical mass isn't in the design brief for this boat. From the interviews it sounds like this boat is for 10-20 well heeled owners for a European circuit.

So 10-20 is the critical mass.

 

 

Yeah, sure. I read the post as meaning there is some expectation of a long lived, US coast to coast. Key West Race Week dominating class in the Farr 40 vacuum. I don't think the boat was meant for that.

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I saw the Melges 40 out sailing this weekend while we were club racing. Roughly about 12-14kts of wind and she looked seriously powered up. I was drooling, its a sweet looking ride.

 

The Premier boys are putting in some serious overtime on the boat getting it tuned and sorted and they say its coming along really well. I can't wait to see the rest of the boats come off the production line and in the water here this spring. I hope it continues to gain traction as a class. It looks like an amazingly fun boat to sail......

 

Finally got around to posting some pics of it out sailing. This was 2 weeks ago in about 15kts TWS. The boyz looked like they were having fun out playing while they were zipping around the outside of our race course!

 

IMG_5937_zpsisnhyxd7.jpg

 

IMG_5936_zpscs1sw5wc.jpg

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Thanks for sharing. It would be nice to see this line up and square off against some of the other Fast 40's this summer. Not sure if it fits inside their box rule, but if not, I'm not sure why they wouldn't adjust to allow it in.

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Thanks for sharing. It would be nice to see this line up and square off against some of the other Fast 40's this summer. Not sure if it fits inside their box rule, but if not, I'm not sure why they wouldn't adjust to allow it in.

Maybe because the owners of the fast 40's have spent a mini metric shit ton of cash against developing a boat to that rule? Why on earth should they change their rule to accommodate this one design boat?

 

This idea is exactly what kills every rule and causes check writing owners to leave the sport. Chasing a rule based on every new boat that comes along is a proven prescription for failure.

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Thanks for sharing. It would be nice to see this line up and square off against some of the other Fast 40's this summer. Not sure if it fits inside their box rule, but if not, I'm not sure why they wouldn't adjust to allow it in.

Maybe because the owners of the fast 40's have spent a mini metric shit ton of cash against developing a boat to that rule? Why on earth should they change their rule to accommodate this one design boat?

 

This idea is exactly what kills every rule and causes check writing owners to leave the sport. Chasing a rule based on every new boat that comes along is a proven prescription for failure.

 

It would thump the Fast 40+'s.

 

It has the same righting moment but is about 20% lighter.

 

Fast 40+ rule is based on a maximum IRC number of 1.270 and 42ft (ish) max length and a few other bits and pieces (to keep small slower boats out). The Melges IRC number would be up in ridiculous territory, so even if they wanted to (they don't) it wouldn't fit....

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Polars from M40 website:

 

gallery_419_860_11002.png

 

I'm not sure that thump is the word. Faster? Yes. Massively faster? No.

 

Now this, on the other hand...

 

15_054529_GC32_Cowes-Edit_large.jpg

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When they tack the boat in the video and the guy is grinding the windward primary with no sheet on. Is this connected to the leeward primary so he is actually wincing in the jib on the other side? Is there is another guy tailing the sheet on this winch. What is the grinder on the pedestal doing. Not really clued up on modern winch packages.

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Polars from M40 website:

 

gallery_419_860_11002.png

 

I'm not sure that thump is the word. Faster? Yes. Massively faster? No.

 

Now this, on the other hand...

 

15_054529_GC32_Cowes-Edit_large.jpg

Just another 10ksb...

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Noisy electric hydraulic pump. How often do they have to run the engine too?

 

Just talking to a friend with a Mod 70. When he takes other rich guys out, they end up exhausted and terrified, too much adrenaline. Its just too much real danger, not seeming like danger. Real easy to get injured enough that you will never be as healthy as you once were, if you are over about 30 years old.

 

I like very fast boats, sail and power. But I like Lido 14s and pontoon boats too. Everything has its place.

 

This boat will never sell like an aluminum boat built (and bought) for fishing on rivers and lakes. So what?

 

Sometimes I like driving our Porsche, sometimes the F350 dually. Is the Porsche lousy because its not a truck, or vice versa?

 

The weakness in our sport of sailing reminds me of the equestrian industry, now a tiny sport somewhat similar to sailing. Nobody needs horses anymore. Nobody needs to sail either. Both used to be essential to global economics right down to individual economics. Now, both are completely unnecessary. Highly desired to a small fraction of society, but necessary to no one anywhere.

 

The areas of equestrian participation that are reasonably healthy (relative to recent, not ever relative to historical highs), are those where there is essentially no supervision, no rules. Just fun riding, and passion about the individual horse that is very inexpensive, often free. The highly skilled, highly regulated parts of the sport, such as hunter-jumper and dressage, the only parts that are in the Olympics, are very, very tiny and seem to be evaporating, and limited to only those with far more money than sense, just like in yacht racing. $250K for a horse that does well in regional competition, millions for the olympic, and many of those horses have shorter competitive lives than string sails.

 

I got into sailing, became a life long compulsive addict, because sailing was very fun when I started. When I go sailing or racing, my internal motivation is to have fun like I have had all my life. So I ignore ratings completely. Absolutely irrelevant. I sail with people I like, I no longer sail with people I don't like. I sail with instruments off, except maybe the knot meter. I sail feeling, and observing what is actually happening around me, not what a computer is telling me. My cars have computers that tell me what to do. I don't need that sailing.

 

I don't even think about trying to get on something like the boat in this topic, because only one person at most is actually having fun, and even he is now so limited in what he is allowed to do given the computer telling him if he is on target or not.

 

How do you convince some hot chick you met in the bar to go out on that boat? There are a lot of other things you can convince that chick to do, but sitting on the rail all day acting like dead meat, or winding a winch every once in awhile, or following little numbers while learning to ignore what you are actually feeling ... Probably unlikely.

 

We wonder why sailing is dying? Its pretty obvious to me!

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What's up with that dude spinning the winch with nothing on it?

 

based on some other videos, it looks like it's linked to the leeward winch - sheet on the leeward winch but grind from the rail. can't find anything specific on Harken's site but it doesn't seem too far fetched given grinder technology.

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What's up with that dude spinning the winch with nothing on it?

 

based on some other videos, it looks like it's linked to the leeward winch - sheet on the leeward winch but grind from the rail. can't find anything specific on Harken's site but it doesn't seem too far fetched given grinder technology.

 

That tech has been around for a long time. I raced on an Ericson 39 around 1980 that had the primaries connected with an under cockpit shaft so you could wind the windward winch and turn the opposite side. Each side had a switch to couple or decouple the shaft. They were Barients and had titanium drums. Boat was built as a downwind flyer, if you can believe that.

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Here's two boats in a picture together that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.

 

IMG_1892_zpsuzus3sv4.jpg

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A main, 3 jibs, and 2 kites:

 

43K for 3Di RAW Pre-Tax

 

41K for 3DL Pre-Tax

 

The longevity of RAW would genuinely make me think twice about saving money on 3DL. That said, no 32 footer should EVER need 40+ thousand dollars in sails. That's just ridiculous. And those are the stock sails btw. Most of the guys at the top of the class are getting custom tweaked designs for their boats so add another 10+ grand for custom sails.

 

 

 

 

 

i like.....

 

 

Why? It is literally doing nothing that any other 40 foot buoy boat can do? They're really not going all that quick off the breeze either. That apparent speed is from a camera angle trick done by holding the camera close to the water to exaggerate speed.

so it really only cost 14K for the 43K price tag on sails? welcome to north.

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A main, 3 jibs, and 2 kites:

 

43K for 3Di RAW Pre-Tax

 

41K for 3DL Pre-Tax

 

The longevity of RAW would genuinely make me think twice about saving money on 3DL. That said, no 32 footer should EVER need 40+ thousand dollars in sails. That's just ridiculous. And those are the stock sails btw. Most of the guys at the top of the class are getting custom tweaked designs for their boats so add another 10+ grand for custom sails.

 

 

 

 

 

i like.....

 

 

Why? It is literally doing nothing that any other 40 foot buoy boat can do? They're really not going all that quick off the breeze either. That apparent speed is from a camera angle trick done by holding the camera close to the water to exaggerate speed.

so it really only cost 14K for the 43K price tag on sails? welcome to north.

 

I agree $43k isnt right. But $14k.... What drugs do they have in the Philippines we don't have here...

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What's up with that dude spinning the winch with nothing on it?

 

based on some other videos, it looks like it's linked to the leeward winch - sheet on the leeward winch but grind from the rail. can't find anything specific on Harken's site but it doesn't seem too far fetched given grinder technology.

 

That tech has been around for a long time. I raced on an Ericson 39 around 1980 that had the primaries connected with an under cockpit shaft so you could wind the windward winch and turn the opposite side. Each side had a switch to couple or decouple the shaft. They were Barients and had titanium drums. Boat was built as a downwind flyer, if you can believe that.

 

it's something I wouldn't mind having on my boat. well except for the cost.

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That tech has been around for a long time. I raced on an Ericson 39 around 1980 that had the primaries connected with an under cockpit shaft so you could wind the windward winch and turn the opposite side. Each side had a switch to couple or decouple the shaft. They were Barients and had titanium drums. Boat was built as a downwind flyer, if you can believe that.

Ted Heath's second Morning Cloud (now Opposition) built in 1971 had interlinked primaries.

 

DSCN3177.jpg

 

First boat so equipped?

 

http://yachtingnews.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Opposition-1068x591.jpg

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Noisy electric hydraulic pump. How often do they have to run the engine too?

 

Just talking to a friend with a Mod 70. When he takes other rich guys out, they end up exhausted and terrified, too much adrenaline. Its just too much real danger, not seeming like danger. Real easy to get injured enough that you will never be as healthy as you once were, if you are over about 30 years old.

 

I like very fast boats, sail and power. But I like Lido 14s and pontoon boats too. Everything has its place.

 

This boat will never sell like an aluminum boat built (and bought) for fishing on rivers and lakes. So what?

 

Sometimes I like driving our Porsche, sometimes the F350 dually. Is the Porsche lousy because its not a truck, or vice versa?

 

The weakness in our sport of sailing reminds me of the equestrian industry, now a tiny sport somewhat similar to sailing. Nobody needs horses anymore. Nobody needs to sail either. Both used to be essential to global economics right down to individual economics. Now, both are completely unnecessary. Highly desired to a small fraction of society, but necessary to no one anywhere.

 

The areas of equestrian participation that are reasonably healthy (relative to recent, not ever relative to historical highs), are those where there is essentially no supervision, no rules. Just fun riding, and passion about the individual horse that is very inexpensive, often free. The highly skilled, highly regulated parts of the sport, such as hunter-jumper and dressage, the only parts that are in the Olympics, are very, very tiny and seem to be evaporating, and limited to only those with far more money than sense, just like in yacht racing. $250K for a horse that does well in regional competition, millions for the olympic, and many of those horses have shorter competitive lives than string sails.

 

I got into sailing, became a life long compulsive addict, because sailing was very fun when I started. When I go sailing or racing, my internal motivation is to have fun like I have had all my life. So I ignore ratings completely. Absolutely irrelevant. I sail with people I like, I no longer sail with people I don't like. I sail with instruments off, except maybe the knot meter. I sail feeling, and observing what is actually happening around me, not what a computer is telling me. My cars have computers that tell me what to do. I don't need that sailing.

 

I don't even think about trying to get on something like the boat in this topic, because only one person at most is actually having fun, and even he is now so limited in what he is allowed to do given the computer telling him if he is on target or not.

 

How do you convince some hot chick you met in the bar to go out on that boat? There are a lot of other things you can convince that chick to do, but sitting on the rail all day acting like dead meat, or winding a winch every once in awhile, or following little numbers while learning to ignore what you are actually feeling ... Probably unlikely.

 

We wonder why sailing is dying? Its pretty obvious to me!

"Nobody needs to sail either." This part is so right on for me after a lifetime (so far) of sailing and racing. Well put.

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What's up with that dude spinning the winch with nothing on it?

 

based on some other videos, it looks like it's linked to the leeward winch - sheet on the leeward winch but grind from the rail. can't find anything specific on Harken's site but it doesn't seem too far fetched given grinder technology.

 

That tech has been around for a long time. I raced on an Ericson 39 around 1980 that had the primaries connected with an under cockpit shaft so you could wind the windward winch and turn the opposite side. Each side had a switch to couple or decouple the shaft. They were Barients and had titanium drums. Boat was built as a downwind flyer, if you can believe that.

 

it's something I wouldn't mind having on my boat. well except for the cost.

 

 

not to mention the weight, complexion, maintenance, failure modes, and taking up interior space.

 

but other than that they'd be freaking sweet.

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Here's two boats in a picture together that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.

 

IMG_1892_zpsuzus3sv4.jpg

 

Pretty funny! I actually had the pleasure of teaching a guy to sail on his, who had bought one for his young family to take trips on. About the first thing I said was ya know, this boat doesn't do anything very well. He laughed and said he knew. But after sailing with him, I get why he bought it. You can't buy a camper with the amount of space inside that thing. It's unreal. 6 adults can easily sleep below. So for $30k, you get a boat and a camper. I was happy to get off of it though.... what a pig of a sail with that water ballast.... It just lays on its ear in 7knts of wind.

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Here's two boats in a picture together that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.

 

IMG_1892_zpsuzus3sv4.jpg

 

Pretty funny! I actually had the pleasure of teaching a guy to sail on his, who had bought one for his young family to take trips on. About the first thing I said was ya know, this boat doesn't do anything very well. He laughed and said he knew. But after sailing with him, I get why he bought it. You can't buy a camper with the amount of space inside that thing. It's unreal. 6 adults can easily sleep below. So for $30k, you get a boat and a camper. I was happy to get off of it though.... what a pig of a sail with that water ballast.... It just lays on its ear in 7knts of wind.

 

 

That's not "laying on its ear", It's 4th mode.

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A main, 3 jibs, and 2 kites:

 

43K for 3Di RAW Pre-Tax

 

41K for 3DL Pre-Tax

 

The longevity of RAW would genuinely make me think twice about saving money on 3DL. That said, no 32 footer should EVER need 40+ thousand dollars in sails. That's just ridiculous. And those are the stock sails btw. Most of the guys at the top of the class are getting custom tweaked designs for their boats so add another 10+ grand for custom sails.

 

 

 

 

 

i like.....

 

 

Why? It is literally doing nothing that any other 40 foot buoy boat can do? They're really not going all that quick off the breeze either. That apparent speed is from a camera angle trick done by holding the camera close to the water to exaggerate speed.

so it really only cost 14K for the 43K price tag on sails? welcome to north.

 

I agree $43k isnt right. But $14k.... What drugs do they have in the Philippines we don't have here...

 

the drug is called Mark Up

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Fuck me you guys need to get on SA facebook or you are missing a lot of shit. The above video was shot outside Amsterdam last week, full tour of the Holland COmposites factory, including G4 with new foiling controls, discussion of the F4, the DNA F1, and even something about the NYYC F30, but they hid all that shit from me. It's a M&M, designed as a new NYYC 42 and whatever they had before that. Pushed hard by Malcolm Gefter, who owns a Marstrom 32 and wants something as cool as the GC but better for old guys.

If it is so good why is it not posted here on the site - why should we look for content in several places?

 

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Here's two boats in a picture together that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.

 

IMG_1892_zpsuzus3sv4.jpg

 

I was happy to get off of it though.... what a pig of a sail with that water lack of ballast.... It just lays on its ear in 7knts of wind.

 

Said that about the last of the IMS boats I sailed on.

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