Will1073

Low Friction Ring Anarchy

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On 11/29/2016 at 4:52 PM, Alex W said:

20151022_180704000_iOS-M.jpg

 

Constrictor splice around the outside of the ring, Allen's "better soft shackle" at the ends. I was using a pair of these around the base of the stanchions on my old boat to lead the twings to the spin sheets. It worked well for that fairly low load use case. That is 1/8" dyneema and the smallest size Antal ring (the twing that ran through it was 2mm dyneema).

How do you get 2 lines around the ring? are you using 2 separate constrictor splices around the outside? Or some sort of single splice with the 4 ends coming out? I've been making some inhaulers with a single line but these integrated shackle ones look very useful for lightweight leads

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On 11/14/2017 at 2:14 PM, Rtfq said:

How do you get 2 lines around the ring? are you using 2 separate constrictor splices around the outside? Or some sort of single splice with the 4 ends coming out? I've been making some inhaulers with a single line but these integrated shackle ones look very useful for lightweight leads

I sort of figure it out every time I make one of these.  Make the noose part of the soft shackle first, and leave yourself very long tails.  Build the constrictor around the ring, then bring the tails back out and into the diamond knot.

There was another thread posted last spring with some good splices that do the same thing, they were shown as "bullseye" splices for a ring.  Sadly I think the photos disappeared due to photobucket suckage, but if we keep pestering the guy who made them maybe he'll share them again.  This is the thread:

I've never tested the strength of any of this stuff.  I assume that the constrictor makes it hard for the diamond knot to be well balanced.  Luckily it isn't hard to way overbuild with dyneema and low friction rings.

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On 15/11/2017 at 12:41 PM, Max Rockatansky said:

FWIW here's some of the things Ive done with lo-friction rings

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tamishel/albums/72157662661412578

Very neat, how much more friction do you find there is using the rings at 90o for halyards compared to normal blocks?

 

1 hour ago, Alex W said:

I sort of figure it out every time I make one of these.  Make the noose part of the soft shackle first, and leave yourself very long tails.  Build the constrictor around the ring, then bring the tails back out and into the diamond knot.

There was another thread posted last spring with some good splices that do the same thing, they were shown as "bullseye" splices for a ring.  Sadly I think the photos disappeared due to photobucket suckage, but if we keep pestering the guy who made them maybe he'll share them again.  This is the thread:

I've never tested the strength of any of this stuff.  I assume that the constrictor makes it hard for the diamond knot to be well balanced.  Luckily it isn't hard to way overbuild with dyneema and low friction rings.

Thanks, I have done a constrictor around a ring before, but you only gets 2 tails, I'm not sure how you get the 4 tails to make the soft shackle? As the noose needs 2 and the diamond knot needs 2..

Thanks

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4 minutes ago, Rtfq said:

Very neat, how much more friction do you find there is using the rings at 90o for halyards compared to normal blocks?

Not sure how to quantify it. (Of course it depends on the load.) 

These are good for the topping lift that we don’t adjust often. They are also on the reefing lines that are winched in. I tried one on the main halyard but it was too much friction; my main is 1:1. 

At the time I built these, they hadn’t come out yet with the nifty sheave things (above pictured) which allow the rings to turn...

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8 hours ago, Rtfq said:

Thanks, I have done a constrictor around a ring before, but you only gets 2 tails, I'm not sure how you get the 4 tails to make the soft shackle? As the noose needs 2 and the diamond knot needs 2..

You can do two constrictors around the ring to get 4 tails.  I'm pretty sure I buried one inside the other too.

Sorry, it's been a while since I've made one and as I said I just figure it out again each time. 

alex

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On 11/14/2017 at 5:14 PM, Rtfq said:

How do you get 2 lines around the ring? are you using 2 separate constrictor splices around the outside? Or some sort of single splice with the 4 ends coming out? I've been making some inhaulers with a single line but these integrated shackle ones look very useful for lightweight leads

I think it is a whole lot easier to just make a softshackle and sew it on to the thimble.  Here is one I made as the 2:1 halyard shackle for my VX One:

 

 

VX One main halyard shackle.jpg

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38 minutes ago, tane said:

how about using this as a "jibhank" on a textile solent-stay?

That would probably do a great job of removing chafe issues, but it wouldn't address that soft shackles are tricker to open/close than hanks. 

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54 minutes ago, kubark42 said:

That would probably do a great job of removing chafe issues, but it wouldn't address that soft shackles are tricker to open/close than hanks. 

I would tend to agree - unless you leave them attached.  Could make them easier to attach/detach by using dogbones instead of the diamond knots

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3 hours ago, Nico G said:

This is a clear breach of MORF patent. PLEASE REMOVE the post

It is not Nico, read all the content and you'll know why.

Fyi: MORF is actually also on another sailing forum, where this content is present too, where Holtere is an active member as well.

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So you are an expert in this field Ericson39 ?

Read the discussion and by god, there is not much patent knowhow on that forum. And why Holtere would post this for someone else ?

Pushed by SYSunday and WillemSix, stupid to do it for them, no gain for him.

In short, Willem Six should apply for a patent and if he gets one, he can give it for free (no license fee). Not publish it knowingly there is a patent claimed on this.

I presume he has a house and a boat, even if a dinghy. That can pay for a few bills he will see in the future.

 

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@Leo. No need to get your panties in a twist. Conditions are getting more blustery inside than outside it would seem. If you need to blow off steam please go sailing. Also RTFM before overshooting the layline. Ciao

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14 hours ago, WillemSix said:

@Leo. No need to get your panties in a twist. Conditions are getting more blustery inside than outside it would seem. If you need to blow off steam please go sailing. Also RTFM before overshooting the layline. Ciao

Whoa, dig into your own panties. You have no clue what prior art is and are posting your documents not as educational information but as an how to to build those blocks.

I was once involved in a patent duel, learned way to much. There are many tricky things in the law. Youre read me file is a bonus for a lawyer.

As said, youre not selling, and that is an interesting point. But opportunity to copy exists in patent law. For example: the Patent Act permits a patent holder to sue parties who induce others to infringe .Its about intellectual property after all.

But the blocks will likely explode in your face anyway, as you were so honest to explain on the other forum:

Willem SIX:
In the meantime, a short addendum to my previous post regarding the ‘philosophy’ would seem in order:
• No patents means I will not apply for patents but would much rather share my info in the public domain. As mentioned, I have no commercial ambitions and merely enjoy the challenge of designing. I would urge anybody with commercial ambitions in the field to test the waters with established names before barging ahead
• If you choose to use the info, you do so at your own risk knowing that most of it has not been tested near well enough. This is not something for the faint-hearted, the loads can be enormous, blocks can explode in your face (they did in mine anyway), failure can expose your crew and your boat to grave risks, only experiment if you are 100% certain that you have a contingency plan for dealing with an unexpected failure (and a secondary backup plan)
• To put this into perspective: testing in mid-winter in near-freezing conditions and 20-25kn of wind on an rs700 tends to make you acutely aware of the risks, but I wouldn’t consider putting my family, crew or the rig of my 36ft’er at risk. For these applications, please shell out the money for a commercial block, properly tested and with the warranty to back it up
• 3D printing is an art as much as a science. If you pick this up, be prepared for a lot of failures and a steep learning curve before you get it right

Oh, and I was wrong about you getting first a patent before giving it away, you can never claim patent now on this work, as there is one little rule stopping you to do so. (without talking about other claims), anyway you said youre not after a patent.

You act like if a patent is a trademark, a patent does not stop the development. Really, you knew there was a patent thing going on, and still had to publish...
Why not filling in a proceeding against the patent at your countries patent bureau. As the law stipulates in your country.

And SYSunday was ready to sell his version, made a website including prices. Ready to hit the market.

At least that is on hold for now, so defending your claim worked in that case.

On that forum there are few guys who copy ideas, then pretend they have invented it themselves with included paranoia. Or claim prior art so patents do not apply, without knowing exactly what prior art is.

I am all for 3d printing and open market, but see the benefits of the patent law (even with its flaws). I have no connection to the makers of those blocks, though I know a few of them out of the past. They are not evil :)

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Ah, youre welcome,  I see the relevant posts are hidden now.

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5 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Ah, you're welcome,  I see the relevant posts are hidden now.

Interesting. Moderators, would you care to comment on whether you censored posts in this threat and if so on what basis? Not saying it was the wrong action, I have no idea what happened behind the scenes. However, having been one of those in charge of an autopilot community, we always felt it was important to be transparent with the community and openly discuss any censorship decisions.

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Oh, I thought the posters did that themselves.

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As far I know posters did not do this: there must have been some moderator action?

 

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I am a typical cheap ass sailor on a retirement budget with an old Dehler 34 that I am having some fun with.  is there a "low friction ring" with a gate in it that could be used in lieu of a snatch block to attach tweeker lines on the jib sheets and spinnaker sheet guy?  Snatch blocks are nice but heavy and expensive.  Carbiners could work I guess as presented in this thread, but a ring with a gate, or a ring on a rope axle that could be opened would be nice.  i am sure someone smarter than me has figured this out.

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5 minutes ago, bridhb said:

I am a typical cheap ass sailor on a retirement budget with an old Dehler 34 that I am having some fun with.  is there a "low friction ring" with a gate in it that could be used in lieu of a snatch block to attach tweeker lines on the jib sheets and spinnaker sheet guy?  Snatch blocks are nice but heavy and expensive.  Carbiners could work I guess as presented in this thread, but a ring with a gate, or a ring on a rope axle that could be opened would be nice.  i am sure someone smarter than me has figured this out.

why do you need a gate?

i used the harken rings to set up spinnaker twings on a 34ft boat a few months ago - they work fine.

you just have to remember to put the twings on when you rig the sheets

 

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25 minutes ago, bridhb said:

I am a typical cheap ass sailor on a retirement budget with an old Dehler 34 that I am having some fun with.  is there a "low friction ring" with a gate in it that could be used in lieu of a snatch block to attach tweeker lines on the jib sheets and spinnaker sheet guy?  Snatch blocks are nice but heavy and expensive.  Carbiners could work I guess as presented in this thread, but a ring with a gate, or a ring on a rope axle that could be opened would be nice.  i am sure someone smarter than me has figured this out.

And what is wrong with a carabiner? I use them for jib twings and it is nice that you don't have to clip them on unless you need them. Get ones with a round cross section.

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1 hour ago, us7070 said:

why do you need a gate?

i used the harken rings to set up spinnaker twings on a 34ft boat a few months ago - they work fine.

you just have to remember to put the twings on when you rig the sheets

 

If you sail in a light air region you want every option you have to remove weight from that spinnaker sheet.  I used rings at first, but moved to the cheap (Allen?) snatch blocks for twings just to make them easy to remove.  We also often have to remove our guy from the clew to reduce weight on the kite.

Climbing blocks can act as cheap snatch blocks and are fairly light, but are a bit more of a hassle to open and close.

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1 hour ago, bridhb said:

I am a typical cheap ass sailor on a retirement budget with an old Dehler 34 that I am having some fun with.  is there a "low friction ring" with a gate in it that could be used in lieu of a snatch block to attach tweeker lines on the jib sheets and spinnaker sheet guy?  Snatch blocks are nice but heavy and expensive.  Carbiners could work I guess as presented in this thread, but a ring with a gate, or a ring on a rope axle that could be opened would be nice.  i am sure someone smarter than me has figured this out.

If you use a low friction ring 'the other way round' with a soft shackle going through the middle it's a sort of snatch block. This is what I use on the outhaul,  for the first block directly attached to the sail,  that gets taken off every race. 

1 hour ago, allene222 said:

And what is wrong with a carabiner? I use them for jib twings and it is nice that you don't have to clip them on unless you need them. Get ones with a round cross section.

I heard a funny story about someones mid regatta fix. Used a carabiner on spin halyard, got clipped to the shroud on the drop, above the spreader etc etc.. 

Since then I've tried not to imagine all things getting clipped in them, have you had any trouble with this? Lifelines probably worst  for a jib in/out/down fucker

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2 minutes ago, Rtfq said:

If you use a low friction ring 'the other way round' with a soft shackle going through the middle it's a sort of snatch block. This is what I use on the outhaul,  for the first block directly attached to the sail,  that gets taken off every race. 

I heard a funny story about someones mid regatta fix. Used a carabiner on spin halyard, got clipped to the shroud on the drop, above the spreader etc etc.. 

Since then I've tried not to imagine all things getting clipped in them, have you had any trouble with this? Lifelines probably worst  for a jib in/out/down fucker

I had my jib sheet clipped to my lifeline once.  Only use locking carabiners!!!!  The only one I know of that that is suitable for this use is the special one I referenced in post #51.  It is locking and has a round cross section.   Unfortunately it looks like that one is no longer available. If you can find any, buy them.  They are an older version of a Petzl but they redesigned it.  There may be others that I am unaware of.  I have a lot of the ones I posted so not in the market.  What you want is a round cross section for low friction and a lock so you don't clip to random parts of your boat. 

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1 hour ago, us7070 said:

why do you need a gate?

i used the harken rings to set up spinnaker twings on a 34ft boat a few months ago - they work fine.

you just have to remember to put the twings on when you rig the sheets

 

I didn't want some metal thingy flailing around during a tack with the genoa / jib, so wanted something easily installed and removable.  Thanks for the suggestions.  

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2 hours ago, bridhb said:

I am a typical cheap ass sailor on a retirement budget with an old Dehler 34 that I am having some fun with.  is there a "low friction ring" with a gate in it that could be used in lieu of a snatch block to attach tweeker lines on the jib sheets and spinnaker sheet guy?  Snatch blocks are nice but heavy and expensive.  Carbiners could work I guess as presented in this thread, but a ring with a gate, or a ring on a rope axle that could be opened would be nice.  i am sure someone smarter than me has figured this out.

They sure have...

http://www.colligomarine.com/shop-all/soft-snatch-blocks-wsoftie

 

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Antal makes a hook with a gate and a rope loop, but its probably bigger than what you would need.

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20 hours ago, bridhb said:

I am a typical cheap ass sailor on a retirement budget with an old Dehler 34 that I am having some fun with.  is there a "low friction ring" with a gate in it that could be used in lieu of a snatch block to attach tweeker lines on the jib sheets and spinnaker sheet guy?  Snatch blocks are nice but heavy and expensive.  Carbiners could work I guess as presented in this thread, but a ring with a gate, or a ring on a rope axle that could be opened would be nice.  i am sure someone smarter than me has figured this out.

Yes, the Antal HK Hook: HK12_G_635852704204695188.jpg

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22 hours ago, RImike said:

Yes, the Antal HK Hook: 

by his own admission.., he's a "cheap ass sailor"..., so at ~5X the cost of a ring, i don't think that will be what he's looking for...

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That is pretty neat though!

 

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Any advantage / disadvantage of using, say, a bronze snap shackle in lieu of a carbiner?.  This would just be for a reaching jib sheet tweeker or possibly to assist in an end for end pole gybe.

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28 minutes ago, bridhb said:

Any advantage / disadvantage of using, say, a bronze snap shackle in lieu of a carbiner?.  This would just be for a reaching jib sheet tweeker or possibly to assist in an end for end pole gybe.

The friction is determined by two things. One is the smoothness of the surface that the line rub on.  A smooth round cross section is good, one with ridges or sudden changes in the curvature is bad.  Assume that the cross section is a smooth radius or circular.  Then the larger the radius the less friction.  The carabiners I use have a much larger diameter than a snap shackle and are round so they are pretty good.  They do not have as large a diameter as the low friction rings so I lose a bit there but the ability to remove them is very useful.

 

That said, in the application of a twing for a jib sheet, it almost doesn't matter what the friction is.  When the twing is being used, there is no motion of the sheet in the twing.  If you adjust the sheet, the twing may stay on the line for a bit but will snap back as the force overcomes the friction and that really doesn't matter much either.  So I just don't think it makes much difference.  When you are finished reaching you are going to remove them anyway, or at least release the twing control line and that will remove all the friction so who cares.

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