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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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unplugged34

new laser sail - availability

142 posts in this topic

Anybody know the story on the availability of the new North Laser Sail.

 

I've been back ordered since August.

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LaserPerformance does not have any money to pay North Sails - simple as that.

 

 

I am told a couple of the key dealers have had sails on order since August/September.

There are none currently available in the US, and there is little hope on the horizon until LP has funds available to pay suppliers.

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Yes, currently there is no supply available to dealers in North America.

 

I believe it's payment related.

 

 

--

We have 140 sails on open order dating back to September with LaserPerformance.

 

We encourage all customers to get their name in the que as soon as possible.

 

Our latest expectations is to potentially see sails in early 2017.....

 

 

Dealers like ourselves are working hard to get sails, but, it's all up to LaserPerformance when that happens.

 

We get ~5 calls a day on this issue, day in, day out.

 

 

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maybe the class can do a quick end-around rule change to patch this ;-)

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Meanwhile, what if I needed a new sail for an RS Aero?

 

For starter you'll have to pay > 50% more than for a laser sail ($818 vs $530).

 

Availability of the new laser sails does not seem to be a problem in Europe yet (Italy at least).

E

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Meanwhile, what if I needed a new sail for an RS Aero?

 

For starter you'll have to pay > 50% more than for a laser sail ($818 vs $530).

 

Availability of the new laser sails does not seem to be a problem in Europe yet (Italy at least).

E

 

And the Aero sail will no doubt out last the Laser sail ten fold

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Meanwhile, what if I needed a new sail for an RS Aero?

 

For starter you'll have to pay > 50% more than for a laser sail ($818 vs $530).

 

Availability of the new laser sails does not seem to be a problem in Europe yet (Italy at least).

E

 

And the Aero sail will no doubt out last the Laser sail ten fold

 

Glad you have no doubts but we don't really know that, do we?

Just as we don't know whether the new laser sail will last longer than the old one (it should).

Fact is, in a competitive fleet,in any class, you're going to want a new or nearly new sail at least for your "target" event.

The prices of the Aero sails are very high and I can't see any reason for it.

E

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No one is currently doing more to help the AERO than LP

Wow! And probably true!

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No one is currently doing more to help the AERO than LP

Agree with that.

Still RS pricing on sails and parts is not very encouraging.

E

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Agree with that.

 

Still RS pricing on sails and parts is not very encouraging.

E

 

 

That's why they are an enthusiastic builder.

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Meanwhile, what if I needed a new sail for an RS Aero?

 

For starter you'll have to pay > 50% more than for a laser sail ($818 vs $530).

 

Availability of the new laser sails does not seem to be a problem in Europe yet (Italy at least).

E

 

 

i would guess that it won't be long before Intensity sells Aero "practice" sails - and they will probably be under $200

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No availability issues in the UK. The Laser fleet at my local club has just taken delivery or a bulk order.

 

As for Aero sails the guy I know who has one and his sails still look OK given he has had the boat for a year but he doesn't sail that often.

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US Retail:

 

Laser Mk II North Sail: $530

Aero 7 sail: $715.

 

 

That's 25%. We have a number of racers here the west coast who own both boats, or sold their Lasers, so they can chime in on life expectancy.

We are selling Aero sails at a much slower pace than Laser sails to people who buy new Aeros (anecdotally at least)

 

--

There are currently no laser sails available in the North America unless it's grey market.

Haven't been for months, that's just a fact right now.

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Do the official Laser dealers (or whatever a Laser re-seller is called) have a franchise agreement with LP that prohibits importation of parts/sails from other markets?

Is that contract "historical" ? :ph34r:

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US Retail:

 

Laser Mk II North Sail: $530

Aero 7 sail: $715.

 

 

That's 25%. We have a number of racers here the west coast who own both boats, or sold their Lasers, so they can chime in on life expectancy.

We are selling Aero sails at a much slower pace than Laser sails to people who buy new Aeros (anecdotally at least)

 

--

There are currently no laser sails available in the North America unless it's grey market.

Haven't been for months, that's just a fact right now.

So are you saying Sailsport Marine is not on the up and up? They appear to have sails. Care to explain the term 'grey market'?

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In Australia we get hit $990 AUD for the MKII Laser sail and the Aero 7 Sail is $896 AUD. We don't have issues with supply, only getting fleeced by PSA with the additional margin on the sails.

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In Australia we get hit $990 AUD for the MKII Laser sail and the Aero 7 Sail is $896 AUD. We don't have issues with supply, only getting fleeced by PSA with the additional margin on the sails.

Wow; $200 more for the same Laser sail down under from PSA? $990 AUD is about $730 USD right? Dang. What you said...

 

Looks like US gets hit up for an extra $50 USD for the Aero main compared to you guys. Not too bad...

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yep, although PSA do include the battens for that price. RS include battens and sail numbers.

 

If you include battens with the old full rig hyde, it's $165 cheaper than the new MKII. I believe in the US the MKII is meant to be cheaper than the old Hyde

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US Retail:

 

Laser Mk II North Sail: $530

Aero 7 sail: $715.

 

 

That's 25%. We have a number of racers here the west coast who own both boats, or sold their Lasers, so they can chime in on life expectancy.

We are selling Aero sails at a much slower pace than Laser sails to people who buy new Aeros (anecdotally at least)

 

--

There are currently no laser sails available in the North America unless it's grey market.

Haven't been for months, that's just a fact right now.

So are you saying Sailsport Marine is not on the up and up? They appear to have sails. Care to explain the term 'grey market'?

 

 

LaserPerformance does not have Laser sails to sell to dealers. Full stop, period, exclamation point.

They have not for almost 3 months.

 

If Sailsport Marine has sails currently, they are either grey market, or inventory that has been on a shelf collecting dust since this summer.

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I heard some idle talk, probably just that, that LP would outsource their parts business. LP would concentrate on building and outfitting hulls while a third party would manage making spare parts available to sailors.

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LaserPerformance does not have Laser sails to sell to dealers. Full stop, period, exclamation point.

They have not for almost 3 months.

 

 

 

 

Ridiculous. How can a class survive when sailors have no way to buy class legal sails? Time to move on to a class where the manufacturer and the dealers actually work together to support the class and the sailors.

 

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Uh oh. Laser rule breaking. Illegal sails. Manufacturers and dealers. Do I hear the sound of Gantt's computer firing up?

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I can't wait to see the availability of the new carbon top section. They are made in AU so we should be fine. $850 AUD($633 USD) is the current cost. The dealers are taking deposits now. It will be out in early 2017.

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US Retail:

 

Laser Mk II North Sail: $530

Aero 7 sail: $715.

 

 

That's 25%. We have a number of racers here the west coast who own both boats, or sold their Lasers, so they can chime in on life expectancy.

We are selling Aero sails at a much slower pace than Laser sails to people who buy new Aeros (anecdotally at least)

 

--

There are currently no laser sails available in the North America unless it's grey market.

Haven't been for months, that's just a fact right now.

So are you saying Sailsport Marine is not on the up and up? They appear to have sails. Care to explain the term 'grey market'?

 

 

LaserPerformance does not have Laser sails to sell to dealers. Full stop, period, exclamation point.

They have not for almost 3 months.

 

If Sailsport Marine has sails currently, they are either grey market, or inventory that has been on a shelf collecting dust since this summer.

 

 

In the US. As mentioned UK supply seems to be OK at present.

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US Retail:

 

Laser Mk II North Sail: $530

Aero 7 sail: $715.

 

 

That's 25%. We have a number of racers here the west coast who own both boats, or sold their Lasers, so they can chime in on life expectancy.

We are selling Aero sails at a much slower pace than Laser sails to people who buy new Aeros (anecdotally at least)

 

--

There are currently no laser sails available in the North America unless it's grey market.

Haven't been for months, that's just a fact right now.

So are you saying Sailsport Marine is not on the up and up? They appear to have sails. Care to explain the term 'grey market'?

 

 

LaserPerformance does not have Laser sails to sell to dealers. Full stop, period, exclamation point.

They have not for almost 3 months.

 

If Sailsport Marine has sails currently, they are either grey market, or inventory that has been on a shelf collecting dust since this summer.

 

OK not trying to be a smart ass but what is a "grey market" sail? If somebody is putting class buttons on sails not distributed by LP would that not be a "black market" sail? Just curious...

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LaserPerformance does not have Laser sails to sell to dealers. Full stop, period, exclamation point.

They have not for almost 3 months.

 

 

 

 

Ridiculous. How can a class survive when sailors have no way to buy class legal sails? Time to move on to a class where the manufacturer and the dealers actually work together to support the class and the sailors.

 

 

LOL.

 

I offer up Traitor's We Are Triumphant video in response. Never did get to use it with Canntt. But it seems there is a new traitor in the house. Et tu Tillerman :-)

 

Seriously, I hope you had a good holiday and will be rooting for NAVY this weekend.

 

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US Retail:

 

Laser Mk II North Sail: $530

Aero 7 sail: $715.

 

 

That's 25%. We have a number of racers here the west coast who own both boats, or sold their Lasers, so they can chime in on life expectancy.

We are selling Aero sails at a much slower pace than Laser sails to people who buy new Aeros (anecdotally at least)

 

--

There are currently no laser sails available in the North America unless it's grey market.

Haven't been for months, that's just a fact right now.

So are you saying Sailsport Marine is not on the up and up? They appear to have sails. Care to explain the term 'grey market'?

 

 

LaserPerformance does not have Laser sails to sell to dealers. Full stop, period, exclamation point.

They have not for almost 3 months.

 

If Sailsport Marine has sails currently, they are either grey market, or inventory that has been on a shelf collecting dust since this summer.

 

OK not trying to be a smart ass but what is a "grey market" sail? If somebody is putting class buttons on sails not distributed by LP would that not be a "black market" sail? Just curious...

 

 

Legal sails imported from another territory. So in theory class legal (as made by an approved mfr and have a royaltybutton) but not legal as supplied by a different region which i believe is not allowed under the terms of the builder agreement. Not sure how it would work for a dealer, I would imagine LP might terminate their dealership agreement over it.

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US Retail:

 

Laser Mk II North Sail: $530

Aero 7 sail: $715.

 

 

That's 25%. We have a number of racers here the west coast who own both boats, or sold their Lasers, so they can chime in on life expectancy.

We are selling Aero sails at a much slower pace than Laser sails to people who buy new Aeros (anecdotally at least)

 

--

There are currently no laser sails available in the North America unless it's grey market.

Haven't been for months, that's just a fact right now.

So are you saying Sailsport Marine is not on the up and up? They appear to have sails. Care to explain the term 'grey market'?

 

 

LaserPerformance does not have Laser sails to sell to dealers. Full stop, period, exclamation point.

They have not for almost 3 months.

 

If Sailsport Marine has sails currently, they are either grey market, or inventory that has been on a shelf collecting dust since this summer.

 

OK not trying to be a smart ass but what is a "grey market" sail? If somebody is putting class buttons on sails not distributed by LP would that not be a "black market" sail? Just curious...

 

 

Google Search Results: 'Grey Market'

 

 

Again, that dealer either has grey market sails, or they have very very old inventory.

 

There are no class legal Laser sails available in North America and we don't have any good information on when sailors will be able to buy more.

A couple dealers like ourselves are working on this almost daily, but, our hands are fully tied to LP ordering and paying for them from North/Hyde/Pryde, whomever at this point.

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US Retail:

 

Laser Mk II North Sail: $530

Aero 7 sail: $715.

 

 

That's 25%. We have a number of racers here the west coast who own both boats, or sold their Lasers, so they can chime in on life expectancy.

We are selling Aero sails at a much slower pace than Laser sails to people who buy new Aeros (anecdotally at least)

 

--

There are currently no laser sails available in the North America unless it's grey market.

Haven't been for months, that's just a fact right now.

So are you saying Sailsport Marine is not on the up and up? They appear to have sails. Care to explain the term 'grey market'?

 

 

LaserPerformance does not have Laser sails to sell to dealers. Full stop, period, exclamation point.

They have not for almost 3 months.

 

If Sailsport Marine has sails currently, they are either grey market, or inventory that has been on a shelf collecting dust since this summer.

 

OK not trying to be a smart ass but what is a "grey market" sail? If somebody is putting class buttons on sails not distributed by LP would that not be a "black market" sail? Just curious...

 

 

Google Search Results: 'Grey Market'

 

 

Again, that dealer either has grey market sails, or they have very very old inventory.

 

There are no class legal Laser sails available in North America and we don't have any good information on when sailors will be able to buy more.

A couple dealers like ourselves are working on this almost daily, but, our hands are fully tied to LP ordering and paying for them from North/Hyde/Pryde, whomever at this point.

 

Thanks! Interesting! Never heard that term before, learn something new everyday.

 

So if somebody purchases said 'grey market' sail they would be class legal. Sounds like the dealer could be in trouble though. However, I would imagine it would be very hard to track down and prove by LP, they seem to have a lot bigger problems to deal with at this time!

 

Not that I am interested as I just bought a new Full and Radial (still brand new for FL this Winter) this past Summer so I am good on class legal sails for a while. :D

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I do wonder if this is part of a leverage play to try to dot some "i" and cross some "t" that I don't think got done (or at least have not been done publicly) after the initial BK lawsuit went belly up. Hope not but I do suspect there are some loose ends from that lawsuit that never got tied up nice and neatly. But what do I know (for TM)...

 

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We have brand new North Mark II Laser sails in stock that we got late summer. They are class sails directly from North. No "grey market" sails exist that I know of.

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We have brand new North Mark II Laser sails in stock that we got late summer. They are class sails directly from North. No "grey market" sails exist that I know of.

Hey just to be clear I was not implying you guys were doing something against class policy. Good for you guys that you still have sails for our fleet. I suspect when word gets out you will not have them for long.

 

I think we all agree it's a real mess when you have a class builder that cannot supply parts for the boat. AND class rules don't allow us to source our own parts directly from the manufacturer, like North in this this case.

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Class rules??

I think the restrictions are more likely contracts between the monopoly copyright holder and the sailmakers.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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We have brand new North Mark II Laser sails in stock that we got late summer. They are class sails directly from North. No "grey market" sails exist that I know of.

Hey just to be clear I was not implying you guys were doing something against class policy. Good for you guys that you still have sails for our fleet. I suspect when word gets out you will not have them for long.

 

I think we all agree it's a real mess when you have a class builder that cannot supply parts for the boat. AND class rules don't allow us to source our own parts directly from the manufacturer, like North in this this case.

 

 

 

If class rules are the reason we can't get new sails, then let's change the class rules so we can buy them directly from North.

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Listen, you guys are making this way more complicated than it is.

 

LaserPerformance has not paid North Sails

LaserPerformance does not have the ability to pay North Sails at this time.

 

Therefore, there are no Laser Sails available via LaserPerformance or its dealers.

 

--

Any dealer with sails still has had them around for a while, as LP has not had Laser sails for months.

Similarly, the direct purchase program for dealers to buy from Sri Lanka was turned off earlier this year as well.

 

 

Until LaserPerformance gives North Sails money, there will be no sails.

 

--

Yes, dealers like ourselves have *huge* orders open.

Yes, we have offered to pre-pay for our entire orders up front, as of September.

 

No, we don't know when we will get any sails from LaserPerformance.

 

--

From my company's perspective:

 

As soon as LP takes our money, we will be airfreighting close to 200 sails in for immediate dispatch.

We are working with the powers that be at LP to get things done faster, but, our hands are tied for the moment (even though our wallet is wide open).

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I think most of you are being way too nice to LaserPerformance.

@!^&*#% WAY too nice.

 

 

This is like buying a car from Ford, and not being able to get some key part that lets it run.

Those dealers that would stock it aren't allowed to buy anywhere else.

The customers can't go elsewhere.....

And the crazy part is that LP makes $$$$$$$ on each sail it sells. So why why why would they not stock and sell these to dealers?

It's instant money.

 

I don't understand why the entire marine industry is still willing to deal with the LaserPerformance Company.

It's like it's run by the dumbest non-sailor ever.

(or he's trying to bankrupt it, and he's getting closer and closer).

I'm surprised those RS guys haven't sold 10000 Aeros already, who the hell would take a chance owning a Laser now?

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Listen, you guys are making this way more complicated than it is.

 

LaserPerformance has not paid North Sails

LaserPerformance does not have the ability to pay North Sails at this time.

 

Therefore, there are no Laser Sails available via LaserPerformance or its dealers.

 

--

Any dealer with sails still has had them around for a while, as LP has not had Laser sails for months.

Similarly, the direct purchase program for dealers to buy from Sri Lanka was turned off earlier this year as well.

 

 

Until LaserPerformance gives North Sails money, there will be no sails.

 

--

Yes, dealers like ourselves have *huge* orders open.

Yes, we have offered to pre-pay for our entire orders up front, as of September.

 

No, we don't know when we will get any sails from LaserPerformance.

 

--

From my company's perspective:

 

As soon as LP takes our money, we will be airfreighting close to 200 sails in for immediate dispatch.

We are working with the powers that be at LP to get things done faster, but, our hands are tied for the moment (even though our wallet is wide open).

Unbelievable!

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I think most of you are being way too nice to LaserPerformance.

@!^&*#% WAY too nice.

 

 

This is like buying a car from Ford, and not being able to get some key part that lets it run.

Those dealers that would stock it aren't allowed to buy anywhere else.

The customers can't go elsewhere.....

And the crazy part is that LP makes $$$$$$$ on each sail it sells. So why why why would they not stock and sell these to dealers?

It's instant money.

 

I don't understand why the entire marine industry is still willing to deal with the LaserPerformance Company.

It's like it's run by the dumbest non-sailor ever.

(or he's trying to bankrupt it, and he's getting closer and closer).

I'm surprised those RS guys haven't sold 10000 Aeros already, who the hell would take a chance owning a Laser now?

Rob Peter to pay Paul.

 

Collected money from the customer for sails, got the sails from North, gave sails to the customer, customer happy for time being, LP does not pay North, North says no more sails until getting paid, LP paid somebody else they owed money to or just kept it for themselves because they plan to declare bankruptcy. North gets screwed. Laser sailors get stuck with no builder. Perhaps this will lead to a more open OD class where we can buy parts/sails from anybody provided they measure in. Intensity Sails at a class event, sweet! Maybe in the long run this will be a good thing for the Laser?

 

Financially LP is obviously in trouble. How much is a lot of speculation unless somebody has some better/inside data.

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Perhaps this will lead to a more open OD class where we can buy parts/sails from anybody provided they measure in. Intensity Sails at a class event, sweet! Maybe in the long run this will be a good thing for the Laser?

 

 

.......that'd be a big win fer (almost) all! :)

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I actually had an email conversation from an LP rep a couple of years ago when I was fleet captain. I informed him that we have 15-20 boats every week on Wednesday nights and that our SI state that non-class legal sails and replacement equipment were OK. He asked "What would it take to only allow class legal equipment?" I don't recall my response but it was most likely a figerative middle finger.

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I actually had an email conversation from an LP rep a couple of years ago when I was fleet captain. I informed him that we have 15-20 boats every week on Wednesday nights and that our SI state that non-class legal sails and replacement equipment were OK. He asked "What would it take to only allow class legal equipment?" I don't recall my response but it was most likely a figerative middle finger.

 

In theory you cannot do that as modification of class rules by an SI are not permitted unless you have permission from the the class.

 

Perhaps a more sensible response would have been 'make the sails and parts cheaper'. My local LP rep told me that if I did a small bulk order (around 4-5 sails) they would happily match the price of any replica on the market at the time. I did say why not sell the damn things cheaper in the first place then you wouldn't have a replica issue. He had no response.

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I actually had an email conversation from an LP rep a couple of years ago when I was fleet captain. I informed him that we have 15-20 boats every week on Wednesday nights and that our SI state that non-class legal sails and replacement equipment were OK. He asked "What would it take to only allow class legal equipment?" I don't recall my response but it was most likely a figerative middle finger.

In theory you cannot do that as modification of class rules by an SI are not permitted unless you have permission from the the class.

 

Perhaps a more sensible response would have been 'make the sails and parts cheaper'. My local LP rep told me that if I did a small bulk order (around 4-5 sails) they would happily match the price of any replica on the market at the time. I did say why not sell the damn things cheaper in the first place then you wouldn't have a replica issue. He had no response.

I think I could put together a 100 sail order if we could get them for the same $75 as bulk orders from the replica guys.

 

Word. Never seen that anywhere, any time. Even for the retail price of replicas.

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In theory you cannot do that as modification of class rules by an SI are not permitted unless you have permission from the the class.

 

 

No, but your SIs can say that the event is open to both Lasers and Not-Quite-Lasers.

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That's nice sea lawyering but in reality nobody bothers. The NORs and SIs typicaly say something like:

 

governed by the 2013 - 2016 Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS), US Sailing prescriptions, Laser Class Rules,and Sailing Instructions with the following changes... Non-class legal replica sails are permitted

 

Or they write nothing about it and the culture allows it. Big clubs, small clubs, experienced clubs and inexperienced clubs all mostly do the same. And good on em. Is it technically correct? No. But the clubs are mostly made up of sailors. And the people actually sailing want to sail, not sea lawyer, so nobody cares about what is technically correct except for folks on internet forums.

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This really has been an insightful thread regarding the state of the NA Laser builder. I think I currently own my last Laser.

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For argument's sake, let's say LP finally implodes. Is there any builder willing and able to step in and start making Lasers again? And support the class in the current format? I think the replica market would make most want to pass on the deal.

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I don't think they will. Nobody defends a lawsuit to the extent they did if they want out of the business or are near imploding. But if they did (want out or implode) then clearly GS/PSA wants in to WW Laser rights. That was pretty much what appears to have been the initiation (and downfall) of the original lawsuit. Of course LP would have to be willing to sell or otherwise relinquish the Laser trademark for the territories.

 

The no sails thing is odd. Unless I misunderstand (and I could easily be wrong) its a pass through, so LP could easily make sails happen... that suggest this is some odd leverage play to get the class to tie up some loose ends in contracts left over from the lawsuits.

 

LOL, I should offer up my twice used class legal Mark II sail for sale on ebay!

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That's nice sea lawyering but in reality nobody bothers. The NORs and SIs typicaly say something like:

 

governed by the 2013 - 2016 Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS), US Sailing prescriptions, Laser Class Rules,and Sailing Instructions with the following changes... Non-class legal replica sails are permitted

 

Or they write nothing about it and the culture allows it. Big clubs, small clubs, experienced clubs and inexperienced clubs all mostly do the same. And good on em. Is it technically correct? No. But the clubs are mostly made up of sailors. And the people actually sailing want to sail, not sea lawyer, so nobody cares about what is technically correct except for folks on internet forums.

Haha well said!

That is what we do, sometimes we put it in the SI's, sometimes it is just assumed. The longer this no class sails available continues by LP the more and more clubs will take this attitude.

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Make LP GREAT again!

 

Yes, we tend to forget that, at one time, LP actually supported Laser (and Sunfish) sailing.

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Assume positive intent. I think they ALL still want to and do try to in their own way but are trapped in various corners by actions and decision taken many years ago that left the elements widely distributed across the class and sailing associationS, builderS (of boats and sails), trademark ownerS, designer, and all embedded in many dated and less that clear contractS.

 

Its like there is an uneasy peace right now but folks seem to know (?) there are landmines out there between them so nobody steps out of their corner.

 

Or maybe I had too much hot buttered rum, LOL??!!

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Listen, you guys are making this way more complicated than it is.

 

LaserPerformance has not paid North Sails

LaserPerformance does not have the ability to pay North Sails at this time.

 

Therefore, there are no Laser Sails available via LaserPerformance or its dealers.

 

--

Any dealer with sails still has had them around for a while, as LP has not had Laser sails for months.

Similarly, the direct purchase program for dealers to buy from Sri Lanka was turned off earlier this year as well.

 

 

Until LaserPerformance gives North Sails money, there will be no sails.

 

 

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Listen, you guys are making this way more complicated than it is.

 

LaserPerformance has not paid North Sails

LaserPerformance does not have the ability to pay North Sails at this time.

 

Therefore, there are no Laser Sails available via LaserPerformance or its dealers.

 

--

Any dealer with sails still has had them around for a while, as LP has not had Laser sails for months.

Similarly, the direct purchase program for dealers to buy from Sri Lanka was turned off earlier this year as well.

 

 

Until LaserPerformance gives North Sails money, there will be no sails.

 

 

 

Saw and understand what he wrote TM and it could be so but it suggests a cash flow problem so long and so severe that it all ends up in... well you know. That seems odd given how much time, effort, and money they spent in litigation when there were other doors (like settlement or sell the business... court filing indicated offers made and even amounts if I recall, no?) that presumably would have made much more sense than to end up in... well you know!

 

Now of course I am assuming there are reasonable, rational, logical, financially intelligent people making those decisions but who knows...

 

How do you explain it, LOL?

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For argument's sake, let's say LP finally implodes. Is there any builder willing and able to step in and start making Lasers again? And support the class in the current format? I think the replica market would make most want to pass on the deal.

 

 

There wouldn't be a replica sail market if LP had not been so greedy and raised prices sky high. As far as other builders, you can throw a stick any direction and find plenty of good builders. Rights holders do not necessarily need to be the builder.

 

I suspect they leveraged the business to payoff something else. Remember, he owns several businesses and none of them are doing well. He fought the lawsuit to hold on to the value of licenses/rights/contracts. If they do decided to sell, the new owners will likely take on a lot of debit unless they wash it through bankruptcy.

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LP can get fucked it seems the only business they are interested in is holding onto the college sailing game. Ordered several 420s from them in the past and when they were delivered there were air bubbles in the lay up after an unsatisfactory response I said never again. I don't understand why the sailing world keeps working with them when we have Zim, Whitecap, Rondar, RS, Weta, etc. oh yeah its because some outdated toy that people swear by.

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In theory you cannot do that as modification of class rules by an SI are not permitted unless you have permission from the the class.

 

 

No, but your SIs can say that the event is open to both Lasers and Not-Quite-Lasers.

 

 

Of course, and that is the easy way out you effectively create a new class for the purposes of your event/club. Worked well at my local club and prevents some officious twerp turning up and causing a fuss.

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For argument's sake, let's say LP finally implodes. Is there any builder willing and able to step in and start making Lasers again? And support the class in the current format? I think the replica market would make most want to pass on the deal.

In this day and age I doubt if any reputable builder would want to build such a POS, if the laminate schedules were changed, CSM was removed and decent core material was used it would be another story. This would all go a long way to improve the longevity of the boat and the increase in costs would be fairly minimal compared to the new unimproved sail and much talked about carbon top section.

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For argument's sake, let's say LP finally implodes. Is there any builder willing and able to step in and start making Lasers again? And support the class in the current format? I think the replica market would make most want to pass on the deal.

In this day and age I doubt if any reputable builder would want to build such a POS, if the laminate schedules were changed, CSM was removed and decent core material was used it would be another story. This would all go a long way to improve the longevity of the boat and the increase in costs would be fairly minimal compared to the new unimproved sail and much talked about carbon top section.

 

Huh??

 

How many dinghies built more boats than Laser were built last year? And the reason Lasers get built is at least in part because the class is so big and so strong and long standing. And the reason the class does well is because its very easy to get in at the club level just about anywhere through extremely affordable used boats.

 

So why would everyone blow all that up and antiquate all the existing Lasers to make those changes and produce something that would not be a Laser??

 

Besides, it exists. Its called an Aero. Nice boat and I think I saw one. Once. Surrounded by 100 Lasers!

 

PS - Sorry TM

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Besides, it exists. Its called an Aero. Nice boat and I think I saw one. Once. Surrounded by 100 Lasers!

 

Kiel Week 2014 - into the lions den, pre-production!

Approaching 100 RS Aeros in Germany now.

694650604(2).jpg

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For argument's sake, let's say LP finally implodes. Is there any builder willing and able to step in and start making Lasers again? And support the class in the current format? I think the replica market would make most want to pass on the deal.

In this day and age I doubt if any reputable builder would want to build such a POS, if the laminate schedules were changed, CSM was removed and decent core material was used it would be another story. This would all go a long way to improve the longevity of the boat and the increase in costs would be fairly minimal compared to the new unimproved sail and much talked about carbon top section.

 

Huh??

 

How many dinghies built more boats than Laser were built last year? And the reason Lasers get built is at least in part because the class is so big and so strong and long standing. And the reason the class does well is because its very easy to get in at the club level just about anywhere through extremely affordable used boats.

 

So why would everyone blow all that up and antiquate all the existing Lasers to make those changes and produce something that would not be a Laser??

 

Besides, it exists. Its called an Aero. Nice boat and I think I saw one. Once. Surrounded by 100 Lasers!

 

PS - Sorry TM

 

 

 

No need to apologize Wess.

 

I don't sail an Aero because there are hundreds of thousands of other people sailing Aeros.

 

Sometimes it's good to take the road less traveled by. It can make all the difference.

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In this day and age I doubt if any reputable builder would want to build such a POS, if the laminate schedules were changed, CSM was removed and decent core material was used it would be another story. This would all go a long way to improve the longevity of the boat and the increase in costs would be fairly minimal compared to the new unimproved sail and much talked about carbon top section.

Your comments smacking ignorance. It's about business and the product.

The Laser builder franchise is not a guaranteed line of profit but it is most certainly a guaranteed monopoly opportunity. Any businessman with a facility and staff capable of producing the Laser would leap at the opportunity.

 

As for the POS?? The Laser has been steadily improved as materials and the knowledge base of its manufacturers have improved. Today's Laser is a reliable piece of equipment whose durability as a competive toy exceeds most every kind of sporting equipment used in competitions.

Lasers built in the last twenty years and not smashed are almost all still in service and most are even adequately competitive for all but the very highest level of competition.

 

Could it be replaced with a "better" toy?? Absolutely

 

Can that be done without abandoning 50,000 available playtoys adeauate fir 95% of all sailors use?? Absolutely not.

 

Certainly the sport would be better off is someone would invest the $20,000,000 it would take to jump start a new better boat for the future but until somebody does that sailors have two choices:

 

Don't race in huge fleets

 

Or

 

get a Laser

 

 

Unfortunately, LP is slowly but surely eroding away that which should be a growing and fantastic second option

Go Gouv! On a roll...

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This would all go a long way to improve the longevity of the boat and the increase in costs would be fairly minimal compared to the new unimproved sail and much talked about carbon top section.

 

 

But if you improve the longevity of the boat then there is no constant stream of perfectly-good-enough-for-mere-mortals second hand boats, the second hand market collapses, new boat sales plummet, manufacturer support (if there still was any) becomes unsustainable, charter boats for the worlds impractical and so on. None of this stuff is quite as simple as it seems on the surface.

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LP can get fucked it seems the only business they are interested in is holding onto the college sailing game. Ordered several 420s from them in the past and when they were delivered there were air bubbles in the lay up after an unsatisfactory response I said never again. I don't understand why the sailing world keeps working with them when we have Zim, Whitecap, Rondar, RS, Weta, etc. oh yeah its because some outdated toy that people swear by.

 

had the same problem at my college. I think the issues were in the maststep if i recall, and maybe the aft cockpit floor. FJ's. Ultimately i think they did take care of the issues fairly promptly at the end of the season (planned so there would be no disruption to pratcie/regattas). We noted the issues a few days after initial delivery...

 

As for why not Zim/Rondar etc, in college it's because ISCA signed a deal with LP that all national championships (and maybe even large district regattas/qualifiers? i forget) had to be held in LP built boats. Maybe that deal has contractually expired by now or was never enforceable? T

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This would all go a long way to improve the longevity of the boat and the increase in costs would be fairly minimal compared to the new unimproved sail and much talked about carbon top section.

 

 

But if you improve the longevity of the boat then there is no constant stream of perfectly-good-enough-for-mere-mortals second hand boats, the second hand market collapses, new boat sales plummet, manufacturer support (if there still was any) becomes unsustainable, charter boats for the worlds impractical and so on. None of this stuff is quite as simple as it seems on the surface.

 

 

 

Given the lack of new boats and kids aging up into the Laser class, the demand for boat is high. A boat from my fleet sold in less than a day; to a junior no less. A local dealer is struggling to get boats from LP and is selling charter boats at new boat prices to happy customers... in f'ng Mexico! Better build does not impact sales. It's all about the supply, stupid!

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Besides, it exists. Its called an Aero. Nice boat and I think I saw one. Once. Surrounded by 100 Lasers!

 

PS - Sorry TM

 

 

There where only two laser sailors sailing Areo's out of the 13 in the last big regatta. The comment from every single one of them, whom I knew, was "When I'm sailing a laser downwind, I'm out of control." In other words, you didn't master sailing a Laser so this new toy is better. Like an Porsche with an automatic transmission.

 

post-64413-0-89617900-1481780604_thumb.jpg

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We've got 75 Laser sails arriving next week (finally).

They are all pre-sold at this point

 

Expecting another batch of 75 to land at our warehouse early February.

 

--

After that we'll try to bring in 50-100 at a time, working hard to build up stock for all summer long.

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The builder's markup between sailmaker and distributor on your batch of 75 sails is:

@ $100 each = $7,500

@ $200 each =$15,000

@$300 each= $22,500

@400 each = $30,000

 

 

I suspect the $400 number is most accurate.

Not bad for the margin on one order from one dealer

 

It seems the builder would never again fail to have stock ready to ship the day you place an order

 

As there are similar orders from Tackle Shack, Colie Ssils, Fogh, and APS it would seem The builder would recognize this pass through markup opportunity as a fundamentally sacred part of its potential success.

 

I don't know any other dealers who ordered & pre-paid for anywhere close to the number of sails we did.

 

 

Your point remains, the builder should have sails in stock. Both to support the class and to make money for themselves to stay in business supporting said class.

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As of today from APS on the east coast they have no idea when they'll be getting sails. They have 55+ on back order.

 

I got an e-mail from them stating they vendor is unable to provide any information regarding when the sails will be available....

 

Good times! I figure the top section is a non-issue at this point if the sails that have been approved for over a year are unavailable.

 

 

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what are they doing at NA's/Worlds/Nats? are people just showing up with old sails? What about new boat charters?

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what are they doing at NA's/Worlds/Nats? are people just showing up with old sails? What about new boat charters?

 

They built new boats for worlds in mexico, some got sold to dealers and the others got shipped off to college and high school nationals. They had the new mark 2 sail on them but not the new top section.

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UPS driver wasn't too thrilled with us this morning...

 

 

This is about ~1/3 of our total Laser Sails on order with LP.

Everything you see is spoken for - but we are expectin for another similar shipment of 75 lasers sails in 2 weeks.

 

UPS driver wasn't too thrilled with us this morning.

post-6026-0-81277900-1485196378_thumb.jpg

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New Zealand Laser Nationals were held last week. Nearly all the Standard fleet were on Mk11s. A number of them were as news from the Olympic triallists.

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UPS driver wasn't too thrilled with us this morning...

 

 

This is about ~1/3 of our total Laser Sails on order with LP.

Everything you see is spoken for - but we are expectin for another similar shipment of 75 lasers sails in 2 weeks.

 

UPS driver wasn't too thrilled with us this morning.

 

 

Hmmm, I think I need to look at my checking account to see if there's a new sail in it for me this Spring before you run out again!

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Just talked with Sturgis Boat Works, they have the sail available, but at premium pricing relative to some other East Coast outfits.

 

APS doesn't appear to have stock right now.

 

Colie might have stock later this week.

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100+ more laser sails on the way here, should arrive in 3 days to satisfy more back orders..

200 on order after those, so we should have enough stock for sailors for a few months.

 

We're encouraging everyone to get orders in asap, as honestly, we don't know when we will be able to get more.

So, buy now if you will want one for 2017.

 

--

To Dogfish.... the 2017 price is $604.35.

I have heard some dealers charging more because of no availability for 5 months or so, but $604.35 is the going price in general.

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@WestCoast, what's your point of view on batten pricing . . . some are at $64, others at $32. How should our wallets vote?

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100+ more laser sails on the way here, should arrive in 3 days to satisfy more back orders..

200 on order after those, so we should have enough stock for sailors for a few months.

 

We're encouraging everyone to get orders in asap, as honestly, we don't know when we will be able to get more.

So, buy now if you will want one for 2017.

 

--

To Dogfish.... the 2017 price is $604.35.

I have heard some dealers charging more because of no availability for 5 months or so, but $604.35 is the going price in general.

 

Ouch... So much for the promise of the new sail being less expensive than the old one. I should have bought a whole bunch when they were $530.

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@WestCoast, what's your point of view on batten pricing . . . some are at $64, others at $32. How should our wallets vote?

 

MkII batten set (tapered) are $64

Original battens (non tapered) are $32

 

(they are not interchangeable)

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100+ more laser sails on the way here, should arrive in 3 days to satisfy more back orders..

200 on order after those, so we should have enough stock for sailors for a few months.

 

We're encouraging everyone to get orders in asap, as honestly, we don't know when we will be able to get more.

So, buy now if you will want one for 2017.

 

--

To Dogfish.... the 2017 price is $604.35.

I have heard some dealers charging more because of no availability for 5 months or so, but $604.35 is the going price in general.

 

Ouch... So much for the promise of the new sail being less expensive than the old one. I should have bought a whole bunch when they were $530.

 

Shit, they were $530 last year weren't they!?

 

A $75 price increase, that's crap! Oh sorry a $74.35 price increase. What's with the weird price anyways? Why not $605???

 

Glad our club allows and will continue to allow the non class button sails.

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Got 100 more Laser sails in yesterday.

This covers all backorders for now, but will not be enough for spring.

 

200+ more on order.

Hope we have them this summer!!

post-6026-0-55406400-1486575301_thumb.jpg

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Colie is selling the sails for $650.00. Included applied numbers, but no battens. I think I'll hang onto my back ordered sail at APS a little longer...

 

Supply vs demand vs what the market will bear..... Anyone paying $650 US?

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^^^^

 

I usually avoid commercial messages here, that's not why I post here... but I get confused with sailors sometimes:

 

 

Standard MkII sail - with numbers installed - $604.35 (on our website, you can find it if you want, I won't link it)

 

We dispatch most sails (with numbers) in 24 hours....

We shipped out 14 Laser sails today to customers around North America.

Shipping is free.

 

 

I'm just curious what would have you pay more?

Or why what Colie charges matters at all?

Or other vendors that don't have stock either?

 

 

Genuinely curious.

I don't care where you buy your sail, but you certainly don't have to pay $650 - and you certainly don't have to wait (at least at the moment!)

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Thanks for the honest post WestCoast.

 

Nice on the free shipping and I would think no tax if outside Washington state as well!

 

But still curious why $604.35? Just a weird number. Why not just make it $605 even???

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It is $600 even in metric dollars.

 

 

....or $795 in canadian.

 

.... plus Goods,Services Tax entering Canada,,

 

...plus an insane brokerage fee by UPS, usually well more than the GST. :mellow:

 

 

 

best call it a $1G sail,, ......or lipstick on a pig. <_<

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post-8852-0-38746100-1451505445_thumb.jp
New sails get old in a hurry on Tomales Bay.

 

 

 

That's what old sails are for!

 

...used to tie the end of the mainsheet round my ankle on daze like that. ...and where's the centerboard? :huh:

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post-8852-0-38746100-1451505445_thumb.jp
New sails get old in a hurry on Tomales Bay.

 

 

 

That's what old sails are for!

 

...used to tie the end of the mainsheet round my ankle on daze like that. ...and where's the centerboard? :huh:

 

 

gone...

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Thanks for the honest post WestCoast.

 

Nice on the free shipping and I would think no tax if outside Washington state as well!

 

But still curious why $604.35? Just a weird number. Why not just make it $605 even???

 

I'll answer that as someone who did the same type of retail as WestCoast. Each manufacturer "lists" prices. They look at their "hard" cost and add their margin target. Frankly, every boat part comes to an uneven number, even the boat itself. If you round up to the nearest dollar, you run the risk of being the higher price in a google search and people won't buy from you.

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Thanks for the honest post WestCoast.

 

Nice on the free shipping and I would think no tax if outside Washington state as well!

 

But still curious why $604.35? Just a weird number. Why not just make it $605 even???

 

Oh man, don't get me started on pricing issues.

 

Usually this happens when a vendor uses a top-up pricing model. (ie, they take their cost, add a percent to it, and boom, retail).

It is a fast, if rather strange, way to price something.

 

That is what happens here. Helps dealers like us a bit, but also leads to some fairly weird prices for items.

Life in the boat business..... :wub:

 

 

(whoops, didn't see his reply, but scowlover basically nailed it)

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George didn't have a shock cord on his centerboard. So it's in the air somewhere behind the hull. That was something to watch - a full forward roll.

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George didn't have a shock cord on his centerboard. So it's in the air somewhere behind the hull. That was something to watch - a full forward roll.

 

 

....the lucky fool managed to catch his boat?

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Thanks for the price explanations, interesting.

 

I would rather have the "weird" prices than everything being marked up to $x.99. I can see it on low priced items as that 6 pack at $6.99 does look cheaper than seeing a $7.00 on the sign. But for anything more than a $100 it's silly. For cars and real estate it's a joke! But I guess it does come down to search engines as well as if searching for all property under 200K the 200k property won't show up but the $199,999 will.

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No George didn't catch his boat. He ended up getting rescued by a salty power boat crew.

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When it comes to price I believe everyone has their pain point from both a selling and buying perspective. I have a discounted order sitting at APS at what I believe to be a great price. I've seen the price, placed the order and now I'm just hung up on it.

 

However, I have no new MarkII sail.....

 

If/when it ever shows up I'll feel so happy cause I got such a great deal!

 

However, it may never show up and I'll feel like a cheap idiot....

 

That's where I stand at the moment. I'll probably get tired of waiting and place an order with you, but then you'll be back ordered again as well.

 

The joy's of being a laser sailor....

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if i recall.., the new sail is supposed to last longer.., but not be faster...

 

am i remembering correctly?

 

in any case - do those of you who have been racing with or against the new sail agree with that?

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if i recall.., the new sail is supposed to last longer.., but not be faster...

 

am i remembering correctly?

 

in any case - do those of you who have been racing with or against the new sail agree with that?

Yes last longer but no faster is the corporate line. I guess they are suggesting two brand new sails. But it's kind of a BS statement to make because if the MK I version lasts 10 days of tough racing versus the MK II lasting for 20 days of tough racing then at some point in the life of both sails the MK II is going to start to become faster. These are just made up numbers but you get the point. Sailed the same at some point a longer lasting sail will start to become faster than the more lightly built sail that is getting blow out first. I assume they are the same weight? If not then the lighter sail could have an advantage in light air.

 

I have not sailed with the MK II sail yet but I have raced against others and at my level I have not been able to tell the difference. I have heard some people say they setup and trim differently but until I sail with one I have no data for you on that. I suspect that unless you race at the Olympic level the MK II is not going to make you any faster. It does look nicer and if it does indeed hold it's shape better to last longer then that will be the benefit for 99% of the Laser fleet.

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i understand about the increased longevity causing a speed difference as the sails age

 

i have a nearly new mk 1 sail.., and was just wondering what to expect when i race with it.

 

in any case, i will certainly wear it out before getting a new sail

 

i am a hack anyway..

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