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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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unplugged34

new laser sail - availability

142 posts in this topic

 

I have not sailed with the MK II sail yet but I have raced against others and at my level I have not been able to tell the difference. I have heard some people say they setup and trim differently but until I sail with one I have no data for you on that. I suspect that unless you race at the Olympic level the MK II is not going to make you any faster. It does look nicer and if it does indeed hold it's shape better to last longer then that will be the benefit for 99% of the Laser fleet.

 

 

I think many are going to see a speed difference until they learn to trim the new sail. It is a nicer sail, and probably a much better starting point than the Mk I.

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I've sailed my 3 regatta old Mk1 against a brand new MkII. The other sailor is pretty good and we discussed our results after the regatta. He and I traded 1st and 2nd place all through the regatta over 5 or 6 races sailed. In the end he thought we were very even. We both weigh the same and are the same height. Were sailing older hulls, but new sails. Sailed across a range of breeze from 5-20, (second day was light air).

 

I feel like he had a little better technique and better boat handling. There were a couple of races I blew my lead by hitting a mark and had to do a turn or blew some heavy air tacks. We both always had great starts and didn't try to sit on each other. Just sail our race.

 

In the end I felt like he had a little better speed downwind in the heavy air and was faster all around in the light air races. However, I could not necessarily put that on the sail.

 

The radial cut on the new sail looks very nice. The luff wrinkle is still there, but not as bad. It does trim a little different and will probably take a full season for the pro's to get it figured out. I think when that happens it'll show a speed difference over the old cut, (which you can't get new anymore regardless). It is heavier material and noisy as hell when luffing.

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i understand about the increased longevity causing a speed difference as the sails age

 

i have a nearly new mk 1 sail.., and was just wondering what to expect when i race with it.

 

in any case, i will certainly wear it out before getting a new sail

 

i am a hack anyway..

I am in the same boat as you. My new MK I sail has 5 days of sailing on it. It is certainly good enough for my skill level to race this season.

 

Yea wear it out and then buy a new one. I suspect you would even be able to get a MK I soon. Can you even get one now???

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I've sailed my 3 regatta old Mk1 against a brand new MkII. The other sailor is pretty good and we discussed our results after the regatta. He and I traded 1st and 2nd place all through the regatta over 5 or 6 races sailed. In the end he thought we were very even. We both weigh the same and are the same height. Were sailing older hulls, but new sails. Sailed across a range of breeze from 5-20, (second day was light air).

 

I feel like he had a little better technique and better boat handling. There were a couple of races I blew my lead by hitting a mark and had to do a turn or blew some heavy air tacks. We both always had great starts and didn't try to sit on each other. Just sail our race.

 

In the end I felt like he had a little better speed downwind in the heavy air and was faster all around in the light air races. However, I could not necessarily put that on the sail.

 

The radial cut on the new sail looks very nice. The luff wrinkle is still there, but not as bad. It does trim a little different and will probably take a full season for the pro's to get it figured out. I think when that happens it'll show a speed difference over the old cut, (which you can't get new anymore regardless). It is heavier material and noisy as hell when luffing.

Great post, thanks!

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In our fleet we have a bunch of the "practice" version of the MkII sails(we got seven from West Coast), as well as some with the button. It's widely agreed that the MkII is faster and easier to tune in any mid to heavy air race and that they are pretty much equal in light air. It's been months since we last sailed so I forget the advice on tuning but I think that the MkII required more use of the vang, but that could be chalked up to a bad memory.

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I've sailed my 3 regatta old Mk1 against a brand new MkII. The other sailor is pretty good and we discussed our results after the regatta. He and I traded 1st and 2nd place all through the regatta over 5 or 6 races sailed. In the end he thought we were very even. We both weigh the same and are the same height. Were sailing older hulls, but new sails. Sailed across a range of breeze from 5-20, (second day was light air).

 

I feel like he had a little better technique and better boat handling. There were a couple of races I blew my lead by hitting a mark and had to do a turn or blew some heavy air tacks. We both always had great starts and didn't try to sit on each other. Just sail our race.

 

In the end I felt like he had a little better speed downwind in the heavy air and was faster all around in the light air races. However, I could not necessarily put that on the sail.

 

The radial cut on the new sail looks very nice. The luff wrinkle is still there, but not as bad. It does trim a little different and will probably take a full season for the pro's to get it figured out. I think when that happens it'll show a speed difference over the old cut, (which you can't get new anymore regardless). It is heavier material and noisy as hell when luffing.

 

....pretty subjective observations.

I imagine there's been some much more objective testing between training partners side by side on the water,,, though all becomes a moot point within a season, once the Mk1 are out to pasture. :mellow:

 

 

if i recall.., the new sail is supposed to last longer.., but not be faster...

 

..........

 

 

......f.w.i.w......same was said when they changed from the 3.2 to 3.8oz cloth :rolleyes:

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Roelof Bouwmeester has a nice video on his website about his observations between the new and old sail.

 

http://www.sportvid.nl/

 

*Not affiliated with them, but I did purchase the video and found it worthwhile.

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Ok. Westcoast. You got me. Ordered a sail and battens from you today. Glad you still have some. Think you are the only guys in the US right now.

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Always agreed your last line Gouv. We likely disagreed re Kirby's actions but he could - and still can - launch a Torch and price and position it exactly as you describe. Shame he didn't; would have been a hero to many, me included.

 

Shame...

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..........How much abuse will we take before we have the sense to change the name of the boats we use and open supplying our game to competitive bidding??

 

 

......it seems like what's already in place no?

I haven't been involved to see it in action, but it sounds like many or all clubs allow open use of practice sails already, so I'd assume they're allowed at regional level just the same.

On a national level, I'd guess it's more appropriate to maintain the pricier class ripoff equipment to maintain consistancy

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Roelof Bouwmeester has a nice video on his website about his observations between the new and old sail.

 

http://www.sportvid.nl/

 

*Not affiliated with them, but I did purchase the video and found it worthwhile.

Watched the vid, another example of a sail that you would take straight back to your sailmaker and demand a refund if it wasn't sold by Laser.

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Ok. Westcoast. You got me. Ordered a sail and battens from you today. Glad you still have some. Think you are the only guys in the US right now.

 

Hi RobbieB, got a bunch of orders in over the weekend for sails, but, we'll be numbering them up today (Monday) and have it on the way to you.

 

Thanks for your order.

I try to not be commercial on DA, but, we've got the stock, and folks want it, so, wanted to let people know we've got lots (finally!)

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..........How much abuse will we take before we have the sense to change the name of the boats we use and open supplying our game to competitive bidding??

 

 

......it seems like what's already in place no?

I haven't been involved to see it in action, but it sounds like many or all clubs allow open use of practice sails already, so I'd assume they're allowed at regional level just the same.

On a national level, I'd guess it's more appropriate to maintain the pricier class ripoff equipment to maintain consistancy

 

Yes at the local club level it is becoming more and more accepted. We have been allowing practice sails since our Laser fleet started back up (I think it was 2007). In fact it has really helped us grow the fleet. People who buy starter boats to see if they like it generally are not willing to then drop money on a new sail that costs half or a third of what the entire boat cost. A $200 sail is a much easier sell.

 

I have not seen them allowed at a "regional" level regatta yet but hopefully we are moving in that direction.

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I have not seen them allowed at a "regional" level regatta yet but hopefully we are moving in that direction.

 

I'm for whatever it takes to encourage grass-roots level participation, but I think you need to draw the line on class legal somewhere. For me, that's regional events.

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...maybe it's worthwhile doin what's done even at some world level events. for example,,, 49ers, 14's, Finns have been known to allow some not fully compliant boats and,or experimental setups to to compete,,, with the proviso they can't actually take prizes home,,, you get scored, but don't count for prizes.
This would be a good approach for regional laser events, though I'd suppose there's still the question of joining the (un)class.

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...maybe it's worthwhile doin what's done even at some world level events. for example,,, 49ers, 14's, Finns have been known to allow some not fully compliant boats and,or experimental setups to to compete,,, with the proviso they can't actually take prizes home,,, you get scored, but don't count for prizes.

This would be a good approach for regional laser events, though I'd suppose there's still the question of joining the (un)class.

Certainly in 49ers it's less the not-class-legal kit that they allow to race but you can't take home a prize (actually when I've seen it implemented it's you can't race in gold fleet), it's when a piece of kit is changed that they allow the old stuff. See the implementation of the carbon rigs, different generations of foils, etc. Basically stuff that could be considered "grandfathered" in.

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...maybe it's worthwhile doin what's done even at some world level events. for example,,, 49ers, 14's, Finns have been known to allow some not fully compliant boats and,or experimental setups to to compete,,, with the proviso they can't actually take prizes home,,, you get scored, but don't count for prizes.

This would be a good approach for regional laser events, though I'd suppose there's still the question of joining the (un)class.

Certainly in 49ers it's less the not-class-legal kit that they allow to race but you can't take home a prize (actually when I've seen it implemented it's you can't race in gold fleet), it's when a piece of kit is changed that they allow the old stuff. See the implementation of the carbon rigs, different generations of foils, etc. Basically stuff that could be considered "grandfathered" in.

 

.

 

...yah ,you're correct on those details Reht,, the suggestion remains the same though.

 

 

On a regional level, lets imagine there's many who'd like to compete that aren't worried about the prizes,

 

....nor trashing or even investing in a thousand dollar (cdn) sail..

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I'm still running a Mk1 in NZ, but now sailing mainly against Mk2s. Gossip is the Mk2s are generally better, particularly in breeze, but are taking a few days to wear in/get used to.

At my weekend warrior level, body weight, downwind technique and fitness are more important.

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Sailed against several very good guys this past weekend. One from the Mexico national team, one from Ecuador and one from Japan. They all had the new sail. 5-12 knots of breeze. They had better point and used less vang. The sails showed better shape and it was obvious they had more sailing hrs on them than my newer Mk1. I felt a little more even on the DW legs, but very happy to have the new sail arriving this week.

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Sailed against several very good guys this past weekend. One from the Mexico national team, one from Ecuador and one from Japan. They all had the new sail. 5-12 knots of breeze. They had better point and used less vang. The sails showed better shape and it was obvious they had more sailing hrs on them than my newer Mk1. I felt a little more even on the DW legs, but very happy to have the new sail arriving this week.

 

 

...you sail as much as those blokes?

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Given my age, their age and the number of years I've been sailing the boat at a fairly high competitive level I'd say the overall time in the boat likely very even.

 

I'll have my new sail this week and hopefully will get to line up with them again in the next month. Should know for sure how much is sail vs skill level at that point.

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Thanks and keep us posted Robbie.

 

BTW do you guys have an active Radial fleet as well down there in Charleston?

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We have 3 summer open regattas that pull decent radial fleets, (10+ boats per event). They are largely junior sailors. Right now we only have two in our "frostbite" series. Hopefully that will grow.

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How do the Intensity Sails (non buttoned) compare in speed to the class sails? Anyone ever done speed testing (while training or racing in open events)?

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How do the Intensity Sails (non buttoned) compare in speed to the class sails? Anyone ever done speed testing (while training or racing in open events)?

in the past I found that the MK1 Intensity sails are of acceptable quality compared to those of North/Hyde. It's safe to say that the sail won't be the reason that you lost the race.

 

That said, I have my new MK2 from Intensity still sitting in my garage waiting for our season to start at the end of the month. I won't be able to comment on that until then.

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How do the Intensity Sails (non buttoned) compare in speed to the class sails? Anyone ever done speed testing (while training or racing in open events)?

in the past I found that the MK1 Intensity sails are of acceptable quality compared to those of North/Hyde. It's safe to say that the sail won't be the reason that you lost the race.

 

That said, I have my new MK2 from Intensity still sitting in my garage waiting for our season to start at the end of the month. I won't be able to comment on that until then.

...There's an Intensity version of the new sail,, what happened to the expen$ive copyright!?

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I tried out my new MKII this past weekend over 5 or so short course races in 8-12 breeze. It does trim different and I just paid the $12.00 to watch the German coach's video. I'd say the video is spot on and confirmed a lot of what I was thinking, but I learned some pretty important stuff as well.

 

I sailed pretty closely with a guy who was pretty good and used a brand new old design sail. Upwind I had better speed. I think point was even. DW I was much faster and I weigh 20lbs more than this guy.

 

I don't care what anyone says. The MKII is faster! It seemed really fast DW. It has better shape and in the lighter breeze, (like what I sailed in) that ugly assed center crease is gone!

 

You will need the additional purchase for the Cunningham when the breeze comes up as the material is way stiffer and will require more purchase to get the draft forward. I'd taken out some of the purchase for the old design sail. In the lighter air you don't need as much Cunningham on, but it's basically the same principal as before. Stay just on the edge of getting the wrinkles out until the breeze is on or you're lighter weight and need to depower.

 

There's less vang needed on your initial setting. I found looser vang way fast DW. However, the sail responds better to vang settings as the leech in much more firm so upwind and reaching you'll pay more attention to vang settings. This sail seems to have some actual gears upwind.

 

The one thing that threw me was the outhaul. This sail needs more ON while sailing upwind. Twice as much from the initial setting of the old sail. The sail has a better curve in the design so you don't need to ease the outhaul as much to power up.

 

That's about it. Watch the video.

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Thanks Robbie!

 

I have a brand new Intensity MKII sail that I am really looking forward to get out sailing with. I can use it in our club Thursday night series as well.

 

My newest class legal sail is a MK1 and only has 5 days of sailing on it. From your findings it seems like it is going to be challenging to switch between the two different designs???

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Yes. They trim differently. I have an older MK1 for practice, but after using the MKII I'm going to keep sailing with it unless it's gear busting type breeze.

 

The MKII is supposed to have a longer life anyway which was a big reason for the re-design. Might as well test the theory.

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Just great! (He says sarcastically...)

 

But I am happy it looks like we finally have a decent sail for the standard rig.

 

I only need a class legal sail for when I travel to regattas and most of them I race Radial anyways so for the couple of regattas I need a class legal standard sail I will just deal with the MKI for this season as it is basically new and put a new MKII sail in the budget for 2018.

 

Thanks again!

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And a carbon top section

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And a carbon top section

I actually have one of those on the way!

 

Girlfriends club is doing a group buy on them so I jumped in on it. Mine is a little bent anyways. Granted at my skill level I don't think it makes a hill of beans difference but, at least in theory, this one won't break and tear up a sail.

 

BTW Gouv from what I have read there is no carbon in the spar??? Do you know what material they are using?

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I am outside the Super secret society

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Did anyone who has order the new laser sail from APS last year receive it yet?

Thanks

E

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I placed an order with APS last August. They finally gave up and I got an email saying they were cancelling the order as they could not get any info from the supplier.

 

By the time I reached out to West Coast a few hours later they told me they had sold out earlier that day. I suspect the 2 events are related.

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Did anyone who has order the new laser sail from APS last year receive it yet?

Thanks

E

I was in there this past Saturday to get a Radial lower section. When the guy looked it up he said, "we actually have 3 in stock, wow!" As in "I can't believe we actually have a Laser part in stock!"

 

Anyways I asked about the MKII sail and got "we have no idea..."

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I placed an order with APS last August. They finally gave up and I got an email saying they were cancelling the order as they could not get any info from the supplier.

 

By the time I reached out to West Coast a few hours later they told me they had sold out earlier that day. I suspect the 2 events are related.

Wow! So how much longer can regatta organizing committees stick to their guns and require class sails? When we can order one from Intensity today.

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I placed an order with APS last August. They finally gave up and I got an email saying they were cancelling the order as they could not get any info from the supplier.

 

By the time I reached out to West Coast a few hours later they told me they had sold out earlier that day. I suspect the 2 events are related.

Wow! So how much longer can regatta organizing committees stick to their guns and require class sails? When we can order one from Intensity today.

 

Dang. I should put mine up on eBay for highest bidder. Used twice in light air, LOL! First $1000 takes it!!! B)

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OK. Some MKI vs MKII sail observations from the first big district event. We had 20 boats out. Most had the MKI, but at least 6-7 of us had MKII's. 10 W/L, twice around races sailed in solid 15-20 conditions. Races lasted about 40 minutes each. Top 3 boats finished very close to each other. 4th place boat was a few points back, but had a couple of 1st and 2nd finishes.

 

1st- MKII

2nd- MKI

3rd- MKII

4th-MKII

5th- MKII

 

The guy with the MKI sailed really well and is know to be a great sailor. I'd estimate the top for boats were very close in skill level.

 

If you're loosing races using a newer MKI against newer MKII sails it ain't the sail that's causing the damage!

 

That said. If you really need a new sail and are getting tired of waiting for the next round of MKII's to come in put out a "Wanted" ad for a newer MKI with less than 3 regattas on it. There's probably more than a few out there that would be an easy buy at $300.00.

 

Use it this next season and hopefully the supply issues will settle out.

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Thanks RobbieB!

 

You heading up to Wrightsville Beach this weekend?

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No. Will be there in August. Next stop is Savannah first weekend in June.

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Roger, if you were going would have been fun to meet up for a beer.

 

I am racing Radial so will have no data on the MK I/MK II debate.

 

Going to be good fun to get my ass kicked by the kids and my Girlfriend at the same regatta! I guess I could race standard rig and get my ass kicked by Mother Nature, it's looking like a breezy weekend, instead? :lol:

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