Bull City

Skerry Cruisers

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7 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Matagi:

How can you have a thriving class if you "guard" the rules?

Hard to design a new boat if you can't see the class rules.

Rightly so. I guess Matagi with "guard" mean the rules are not to be changed, at least not very often.

Class rules for the SK classes are published on http://www.sskf.se/Regeln/regeln.htm

which  is the 2013 version (original from 1908). There is a Swedish and an English version (no German, the SK class originates from Sweden). I have not read these, take no responsibility for completeness etc.

"Thriving class" is not the most accurate description, I think. Most of the boats are old, very old. There are some races, but not many. New development in the SK classes is very low, for a number of reasons. Note  that eg Swede 55, the little sister S30 and probably not the Jubilee (which some call S40, some others S47 ...) do not meet the SK class rules.
I certainly do not know the details in Germany, guess a designer who looks into designing a new SK starts with studying old designs, how other designers has approached the class rules. Then when the story is published in a boat magazine or whatever ...

The love of the SK classes never really dies. Ridder and Bergström bought the sunken SK 95 Britt-Marie (around 1960?), put on a new mast - and a Windex of course. Britt-Marie was designed by Tore Holm, built 1921. She is still winning races.
The story never ends, it seems. But it is slowly declining classes, no doubt.

//J

 

 

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On 16/12/2016 at 7:33 AM, Bull City said:

Another bendy mast. The rig seems very far forward - to correct for weather helm?

post-54228-0-61392600-1481833816_thumb.jpg

 

I might be digging up an old thread but only 'cause someone else did.

The bendy mast is a rule beating thing.   I seem to remember the sail area is measured from the head to the tack so all that luff curve is free.  The jibs are also measured as I x J taking J to be 80% of the actual measurement.  So you end up with the curved rigs, small J's, lots of overlap.   Some of them the overlap goes back to past the boom.

A bunch of the Australian square metres are here:

http://www.asqma.com/yacht profiles/Yachts.html

I nearly bought "Wings" but couldn't get it insured.  It was ridiculously quick boat upwind though.  If I had a block of land I could have parked her on to fix her up with, I would have.

the 30's had two mandated bunks and enough head room for a porta potti, but not a lot more.   a lot of dead space up forward.

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8 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Matagi:

How can you have a thriving class if you "guard" the rules?

Hard to design a new boat if you can't see the class rules.

IRC 's a secret rule isn't it? That seems to have worked out reasonably well. 

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I agree on the IRC but I have a hard time, considering the age of the Skerry classes that this rule is "secret". I could be wrong. I'll read up on it in my history of Yacht Rating book by Peter Johnson. Very good book.,

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41 minutes ago, Matagi said:

It's not secret, I 'misworded' that.

Jaramaz got it exactly right, so: thanks. 

J-maz provided the link to the rule:  http://www.sskf.se/Regeln/regeln.htm

Some very nice equations.:P

What fascinated me was this: "One of the last yachts to be designed to the old rule had dimensions of loa 13,40m, beam 1,75!!!" That is 44' X 5.7'.

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

Some very nice equations.:P

What fascinated me was this: "One of the last yachts to be designed to the old rule had dimensions of loa 13,40m, beam 1,75!!!" That is 44' X 5.7'.

You "must" make a time travel 100 years back. Sail boat design as we know it today was in its infancy. They just discovered that

a) the longer the faster, and

b ) the more narrow the faster

In the SK LOA is not limited (might be some penalty), probably Lwl has some higher price ... so then you get dimensions like these.  
Have I said anything about planking thickness? The thinner, the lighter and thereby faster, but ...

This is also what is killing the class / rules to be revised / whatever.

//J

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I was struck by this illustration of the set-back of the forestay:

skerry-bgr.thumb.jpg.5829019dd5ec730e046300b606ecbc87.jpg

And while not a SK, I thought it was pretty neat. A Peter Norlin design:

5971256225daa_norlinoneoff.jpg.27d35b328e26b675d4b5605c8916dfc2.jpg

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

I like a set back on the headstay. But it takes a long skinny boat to do it.

Frank_zpsya2fojmi.jpg

Nice, nice photo.

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To get back to the Skerry Cruisers, the SK:s, here again a picture of the SK 40

SK40.thumb.jpg.8da55a11523fc2c99762d8dfe5f4f077.jpg

In the background there is the SK 75 (built 1896, I think it was) and then further back a SK55, built 1917. This SK40 is the young one in this company, built 1924-1924.  LOA 14.8, Beam 2.02, Draft 1.7 and weight 2.9 (meters & ton).
The overhangs are very long, which to some extent can be seen from the picture, seeing her from the side it looks as the overhangs are 2/3 of LOA, and Lwl only 1/3. Not surprisingly this one is said to be comparably fast when leaning, giving a longer effective waterline.
 

The SK40 class had a short and interesting story. The class started ~1917, designers learned the speed advantage of length, while keeping Lwl low (probably due to the SK rule). The SK 40 boats LOA increased, in the early 1930 they began to be too expensive, and very few boats were built after that.

The hatch on the foredeck ... from deck level one reaches down and pick up things. This is mainly a boat for daysails.

The owner is of course an expert on maintenance, as are the owners of the other SK:s shown here.

//J

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On 7/20/2017 at 6:45 PM, Bull City said:

Nice, nice photo.

Photo by Jan Anderson our local sailboat racing photo gal. 

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6 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

To get back to the Skerry Cruisers, the SK:s, here again a picture of the SK 40

SK40.thumb.jpg.8da55a11523fc2c99762d8dfe5f4f077.jpg

In the background there is the SK 75 (built 1896, I think it was) and then further back a SK55, built 1917. This SK40 is the young one in this company, built 1924-1924.  LOA 14.8, Beam 2.02, Draft 1.7 and weight 2.9 (meters & ton).
The overhangs are very long, which to some extent can be seen from the picture, seeing her from the side it looks as the overhangs are 2/3 of LOA, and Lwl only 1/3. Not surprisingly this one is said to be comparably fast when leaning, giving a longer effective waterline.
 

The SK40 class had a short and interesting story. The class started ~1917, designers learned the speed advantage of length, while keeping Lwl low (probably due to the SK rule). The SK 40 boats LOA increased, in the early 1930 they began to be too expensive, and very few boats were built after that.

The hatch on the foredeck ... from deck level one reaches down and pick up things. This is mainly a boat for daysails.

The owner is of course an expert on maintenance, as are the owners of the other SK:s shown here.

//J

Jaramaz,

Did you participate in the 100 years of the Square Meter Rule regatta in Sandham July 2008? I came over and sailed with Harry Levack who is our USA skerry cruiser expert. We didn't do very well in the races, but we had a grand time of it. Met lots of wonderful people and saw lots of beautiful boats. Great memories! Kim

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2 hours ago, kimbottles said:

Jaramaz,

Did you participate in the 100 years of the Square Meter Rule regatta in Sandham July 2008? I came over and sailed with Harry Levack who is our USA skerry cruiser expert. We didn't do very well in the races, but we had a grand time of it. Met lots of wonderful people and saw lots of beautiful boats. Great memories! Kim

Kim,

I did not participate ... but I was there. Coincidentally, I was sailing through the field one or twice - I remember it quite well. Myself, I avoid Sandhamn - I very seldom get a mooring / slip at Sandhamn itself, and has to much draft for the alternative (Lökarholmen, opposite Sandhamn, max draft <2 m).

Actually, I love the SK:s, they are a part of my life. But I do not sail one myself; I have other boats. Maybe I should bribe the SK guys at the jetty :rolleyes: (easy: beer and more beer) to get on board for some racing.

It is nearly impossible to do well in new waters. Stockholm archipelago is special, I am not a native here, it has taken me some few years to understand and know how to sail here. In this area one must know the topology, in my previous waters one had to know all the grounds and currents. And to know how the winds behaviour.

//J

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3 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

Kim,

I did not participate ... but I was there. Coincidentally, I was sailing through the field one or twice - I remember it quite well. Myself, I avoid Sandhamn - I very seldom get a mooring / slip at Sandhamn itself, and has to much draft for the alternative (Lökarholmen, opposite Sandhamn, max draft <2 m).

Actually, I love the SK:s, they are a part of my life. But I do not sail one myself; I have other boats. Maybe I should bribe the SK guys at the jetty :rolleyes: (easy: beer and more beer) to get on board for some racing.

It is nearly impossible to do well in new waters. Stockholm archipelago is special, I am not a native here, it has taken me some few years to understand and know how to sail here. In this area one must know the topology, in my previous waters one had to know all the grounds and currents. And to know how the winds behaviour.

//J

Yeah, tough waters, the Swedes, Swiss, Germans and Poles clobbered us (there may have been Finnish and Norway boats too.)

I think we finished about 26 out of like 29 boats, but it was great fun. We chartered a boat, too much hassle to bring mine or Harry's. Sadly we have both sold our 30's, Harry for health reasons and me because I built a new custom boat recently which is kind of like a 100 square metre boat, (but only kind of like one.)

I looked at Bacchant the Reimer's 75 Square Metre, but it was when Jerry still had her listed at about $900K. (She sold for about $250K several years later. I might have bought her at $250K, but by then we were well into the new boat project. It is best she went to Sweden anyway.

Love the Skerry Cruisers!

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14 hours ago, kimbottles said:

...

I think we finished about 26 out of like 29 boats, but it was great fun. ...

I looked at Bacchant the Reimer's 75 Square Metre, but it was when Jerry still had her listed at about $900K. (She sold for about $250K several years later. I might have bought her at $250K, but by then we were well into the new boat project. It is best she went to Sweden anyway.

Love the Skerry Cruisers!

If it was fun you won!

Bacchant is really a stunner, sails very well. Still winning. But ... heavy to sail, probably need a crew. And the maintenance! Even if one has others to do the work one has to put in all the attention and energy. Too easily becomes a burden instead of joy.

The one you got "instead" is probably much more fun and less hassle. Congrats!

//J
 

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2 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

If it was fun you won!

Bacchant is really a stunner, sails very well. Still winning. But ... heavy to sail, probably need a crew. And the maintenance! Even if one has others to do the work one has to put in all the attention and energy. Too easily becomes a burden instead of joy.

The one you got "instead" is probably much more fun and less hassle. Congrats!

//J
 

Yeah, the one I got is a joy for sure! Of course given that she was custom designed and built for me that is no surprise.

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there is one 22m2 for sale in NL, which i have been eyeballing a lot. Though now with a 3rd child of just 6 months a house renovation and relocating business, it won't fit my budget now... i still want it though...

 

https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/watersport-en-boten/kajuitzeilboten-en-zeiljachten/m1139470755-klassiek-zeiljacht-scherenkruiser-22-m2-draak-regenboog.html?c=a2384ef0ece270f44503df9f8598c624&previousPage=lr&pos=10

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7 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

A meter boat is not a Skerry.

Jammer ... all Skerrys are classified according to their sail area. So a 22 m2, or sqm, has 22 sqm sail area. 

Meter boats - guess you are referring to the R meter rule. Those are denoted as eg 6m, 8m, 10m and 12m. There are more. A 12m is i very large sail boat, around 25 meters long.

Your statement is true, but no one has said anything else either. Seems you have misinterpreted Jmod post, not understanding he is pointing to a SK 22. 

If it was a 22m ... that would be something. 

/J

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On ‎20‎-‎07‎-‎2017 at 11:58 PM, Bull City said:

 

 

And while not a SK, I thought it was pretty neat. A Peter Norlin design:

5971256225daa_norlinoneoff.jpg.27d35b328e26b675d4b5605c8916dfc2.jpg

Drooolllllllll :wub:

That picture came around somewhere on these forums a few years ago and I was smitten.

Can't seem to find much more info on the web, but it looks like a modernish 6m or 8m with just a little cabin to hang out in... But then didn't Norlin design the Swedish 12m Sverige that challenged for the America's Cup?

Gorgeous!

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On 7/28/2017 at 4:55 AM, JMOD said:

there is one 22m2 for sale in NL, which i have been eyeballing a lot. Though now with a 3rd child of just 6 months a house renovation and relocating business, it won't fit my budget now... i still want it though...

 

https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/watersport-en-boten/kajuitzeilboten-en-zeiljachten/m1139470755-klassiek-zeiljacht-scherenkruiser-22-m2-draak-regenboog.html?c=a2384ef0ece270f44503df9f8598c624&previousPage=lr&pos=10

I feel your pain.

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53 minutes ago, Jaramaz said:

Jammer ... all Skerrys are classified according to their sail area. So a 22 m2, or sqm, has 22 sqm sail area. 

Meter boats - guess you are referring to the R meter rule. Those are denoted as eg 6m, 8m, 10m and 12m. There are more. A 12m is i very large sail boat, around 25 meters long.

Your statement is true, but no one has said anything else either. Seems you have misinterpreted Jmod post, not understanding he is pointing to a SK 22. 

If it was a 22m ... that would be something. 

/J

indeed a little misinterpretation, this is the square meter rule not the meter rule. (I sail quite a lot on 6mR and 8mR boats, so well aware of the difference). I do post a lot about mR boats, but that is because I am also webmaster of the International Eight Meter Association. So I am biased....

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8 hours ago, JMOD said:

indeed a little misinterpretation, this is the square meter rule not the meter rule. (I sail quite a lot on 6mR and 8mR boats, so well aware of the difference). I do post a lot about mR boats, but that is because I am also webmaster of the International Eight Meter Association. So I am biased....

JMOD, with this cv you are doomed. A SK is however a step inthe rught direction. If you really want the one you linked to, offer him 50%, ie 10 k euros. 

He does not have any buyer ... 

But be repared for extensive maintenance. With 3 kids ... I would not. Each to their own.

/ J

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I know, I know, doom and unmitigated failure... at least the mR boats I sail on don't have offset companionways...

 

I love the 22m, but it is just not in the books at the moment. also still have my dragon which needs attention... so maybe in a couple of years....

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On 7/25/2017 at 11:26 AM, carcrash said:

I disagree with some of what you wrote.

For a mainsail, the max air flow velocity, which is also the minimum pressure, is in front of and to leeward of the leading edge of any sail. If it was not forward, you would not move forward.

For most efficiency for a given amount of sail cloth, the leech of the jib should be at this same point with respect to the main -- so I agree with what you were implying above, but the location of the leech should be forward of the mast, not at all aft of the mast. That is why blade jibs work so well, and why 135% and 120% headsails are ineffective and are now so rarely seen.

Gentry did write about slot effects, but since he was trapped in the conventional wisdom of the CCA, Universal Rule, RORC, PHRF etc where overlap was essentially or implicitly not measured and therefore the extra cloth came almost for free, then he had the unfortunate bias of thinking overlap was useful. Its only useful if the racing rule gives you the area for free. If all area is measured, you will never see an overlapping upwind sail.

In Gentry's articles, he only explored overlapping headsails, and his results were surprising by suggesting that 180% genoas are not better than smaller overlap headsails. At least, I don't remember ever seeing one that explored finding the proper location for the leech. It was half a century ago, so I could easily be wrong, but this was and is something I pay attention to.

In more general aerodynamic research papers, putting the trailing edge of a leading foil (such as a leading edge device) at the minimum pressure (max velocity) point is the design rule that I find reinforced pretty universally. Note you never, ever see turbine blades overlap. Never. The more efficient the engine, the more gap between blades. They work hard to achieve that universal orientation of one trailing edge being at the minimum pressure point ahead and to leeward of the following foil.

At the risk of..... something......, Mistah Speer posted that both work well, and that might infer an explanation of individual style of sailing being incredibly important: what Mistah Perry would call the .15% of the joy of boat design- 'let's talk racing'.  The joy of Art.

The Joy of Helmsmanship....and Sailmaking....and all that other stuff that turn us into sailing junkies...:wub:

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There are a couple of skerry cruisers on the "Save a Classic" page of the Jan/Feb 2018 issue of WoodenBoat. Epiphany is a temptress.

5a5136b77a583_SkerryWB2018_02.thumb.jpg.fdc346025e87b3ca0904bd6a154e0c49.jpg

 

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Don’t show me this shit! I’m up to my eyeballs in wood and don’t need a damn Skerry! 

Ok, the wife is gone.

Wow, if I only had a few less extra projects around. I’ll have to post a couple of my zombies in Woodenboat’s “Boats for Free” section before I can pick up That 22sm. 

Had to stop looking at a meter boat up in City Island,NY, last spring, all the easy work was done and I just didn’t want to install a new keel to hold all those new fasteners together.

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On 12/14/2016 at 2:19 AM, Jammer Six said:

Dragons were the compromise I was willing to settle for. What I want is a Skerry with some living accommodations.

 dragon sailors cruise bb10 s

 

the shipyard  builds both 

http://www.borresen.com/bb10meter/

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On 1/7/2018 at 4:58 PM, captain_crunch said:

Does an H-Boat count as a Skerry Cruiser?

 

Woof.jpg

I wouldn't say H is a skerry cruiser. Even though it's a seriously nice boat otherwise.

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Modified 30sq "Rumbleseat" in 94 DH Farallones race off NorCal coast.  A very wet ride, incredibly fun.  My crew was longtime friend Hans Kaufmann.

Rumbleseat 1994a-C.jpg

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Another one, on the way out in the same race.

Keel was modified later, for the 96 SH Transpac

Rumbleseat 1994b-C2.jpg

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1 hour ago, Matagi said:

THAT WENT ON A TRANSPAC??? ahem. Sorry. That went on a Transpac? Wow. 

He is being a bit modest, Bruce WON the single handed Transpacific race in Rumbleseat, First Overall.

Skinny boats can be quite fast if designed correctly.

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17 hours ago, kimbottles said:

He is being a bit modest, Bruce WON the single handed Transpacific race in Rumbleseat, First Overall.

Skinny boats can be quite fast if designed correctly.

True, but most designers prefer long waterlines like, you know, that long white boat up in the PNW somewhere.

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10 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

The way I understood it, a true Skerry Cruiser has (at least minimal) accommodations.

Most skerry cruisers have living accommodations. Maybe not the same as you find in most floating summer houses with mast and sail… 

Headroom is not something you will get and the accommodations will be more like camping. Several of my friends have been growing up with cruising all summers in skerry cruisers. When not sailing many skerry cruisers also utilize a tent over the cockpit to extend the living accommodations. 

2.jpg.a138db787ff115593a206a26f520df3a.jpg

1.JPG

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I know it is not a SK, but still fits here

'Winnie', a Reimers design, a Havskryssaren, I think.

The owner wrote a standard book on wooden boat restauration and I think it shows!

Winnie.jpg

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50 minutes ago, Jammer Six said:

I'd like to see some shots of a Skerry's accommodations, if that's possible.

A varnished dog kennel, suitable for elves.

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2 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

I'd like to see some shots of a Skerry's accommodations, if that's possible.

Scroll through these pictures There are a few pictures of the interior, most are of renovation work unfortunately.  

https://www.facebook.com/pg/30-m2-skärgårdskryssare-140439956019762/photos/

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Huh. I'm not ready.

I could make a lot of that work... I could see a sleeping bag to port and a sleeping bag to starboard... I could see a portable burner out on the stern... I could even see eating under the boom tent.

But there's no head. There's no space for a head. So I think I let this idea go. But I"m not ready.

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P.S. There are some great shots in there. Heavily hung old men out on that pointy bow, during a heavy start, no PFD, no lifelines, hanging on with one hand...

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On 7/20/2017 at 5:58 PM, Bull City said:

5971256225daa_norlinoneoff.jpg.27d35b328e26b675d4b5605c8916dfc2.jpg

I would like see more of this one - a Peter Norlin one off.

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12 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

P.S. There are some great shots in there. Heavily hung old men out on that pointy bow, during a heavy start, no PFD, no lifelines, hanging on with one hand...

The PFD's goes inside the smock to keep the wind-drag down. But then I guess we are part of the younger generation in that class 

 

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But I agree with the protests about mandatory pfd’s. The use of pfd’s should not be mandatory since it improves the gene pool when all the stupid people don’t have to wear them. And gives the rest the possibility of post mortem handing out Darwin awards…

 

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4 hours ago, BlackBart said:

The PFD's goes inside the smock to keep the wind-drag down. But then I guess we are part of the younger generation in that class 

 

I always get PFDs mixed up with PDFs. Consequently, at first, Bart's statement meant nothing to me... PDFs inside a smock? WTF is he talking about?

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One of the things I like about Skerrys (and Dragons) is no lifelines. Boats should either have sea-going, chest high lifelines that would actually work for a solo sailor, nothing or good, seaman-like gunwhales.

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18 hours ago, Bull City said:
23 hours ago, BlackBart said:

The PFD's goes inside the smock to keep the wind-drag down. But then I guess we are part of the younger generation in that class 

 

I always get PFDs mixed up with PDFs. Consequently, at first, Bart's statement meant nothing to me... PDFs inside a smock? WTF is he talking about?

We need a TLA for TMI......... oh wait

FB- Doug

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16 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

One of the things I like about Skerrys (and Dragons) is no lifelines. Boats should either have sea-going, chest high lifelines that would actually work for a solo sailor, nothing or good, seaman-like gunwhales.

I agree. When I had a J22, I removed the lifelines and stern pulpit. When I renovated my H-Boat, I removed them and both pulpits. Of course, I sail on an inland lake, not the wild salt sea. 

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5 minutes ago, Bull City said:
16 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

One of the things I like about Skerrys (and Dragons) is no lifelines. Boats should either have sea-going, chest high lifelines that would actually work for a solo sailor, nothing or good, seaman-like gunwhales.

I agree. When I had a J22, I removed the lifelines and stern pulpit. When I renovated my H-Boat, I removed them and both pulpits. Of course, I sail on an inland lake, not the wild salt sea. 

Chest-high lifelines? Sure. Maybe put in a white picket fence.

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29 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

For chest high bulwarks, get a bigger boat!

post-10450-0-42389900-1394117711.jpg

 

+1

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2 hours ago, carcrash said:

Correct and incorrect.

I agree that the leech wants to be where flow is fastest (pressure is lowest), and you described why quite well.

On a high performance glider wing, this might be as much as 30% of chord aft of leading edge. Hence, overlap on a wing mast might be OK. But the best leech position is not in any way related to J or LP.

However, your mast and mainsail make a thin airfoil (the sail) with an approximately round blob at the leading edge (the mast). This makes for an airfoil where the lowest pressure is forward and to leeward of the spar.

You can easily demonstrate this by going Windsurfing and notice how far forward your forward hand is, and the angle it makes: your forward arm is pointing at lowest pressure (vector of lift). Or, just walk around on deck with main up but no jib. You will feel where velocity is greatest.

The leech of the jib is best, in L/D and L/Atot (amount of useful power for a given amount of actual cloth, not rated cloth), if the leech of the jib is FORWARD and to leeward (of course) of the mast. That is where velocity is highest and pressure is lowest. Velocity decreases fairly rapidly as you move back alng the leeward side of your mainsl (or any foil).

Gentry explored sail plans that were used in CCA, IOR, and the 12meter rule, all of which did not measure or under measured overlap. That is the only reason Gentry found advantage in overlapping headsails, or even bothered with overlapped sails in those early CFD runs. That was the problem, lets explore separation, angle of attack, and so forth, for rigs encouraged by those rules.

Your checkbook measures total area ;-) and modern rules measure sail area more completely, so now we can focus n what actually works best, rather than being so distracted in our experiments by goofy rating rules. Hence, now you no longer see overlapping headsails much at all.

 

Yup.  And I like blades for that very reason (as well as handling), but what I have noticed is that a blade without overlap is not as stable as far as tufts on the leach are concerned (compared to an overlapping jib), or feel, for that matter, although things iron themselves out by the main leach tufts (usually).  Blades by different sailmakers are all different too, which kind of argues that things are a bit up in the air? :rolleyes: Still?

As long as were on this, maybe you might tackle this one?-  Elvstrom won a lot of races in Dragons, in big air, flying the overlapping jib and luffing the main  (tha bubble, baby!).  Maybe it was technology limitations, or the design of the hull, but I have never seen a good explanation.  Would you still argue (that the overlapping jib on a Dragon) is unrated area?  I don't know about present practice....  

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On January 9, 2018 at 4:40 AM, Jammer Six said:

  No.

The modified Rumbleseat?  Skinny?  Post Modern?  Same train of thought, a logical step forward..............................................................................?  

Puleeeease? :)???  

Imagine a 40er! :wub:  

(Swarbrick is rumored to have imagined one, but I've never seen an image.)

HINT HINT

(You'll have to imagine this is a 40er....)

 

 

home.5.big.jpg

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On July 20, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Bob Perry said:

I like a set back on the headstay. But it takes a long skinny boat to do it.

Frank_zpsya2fojmi.jpg

:)

photo.JPG

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On 1/12/2018 at 10:26 PM, BlackBart said:

The PFD's goes inside the smock to keep the wind-drag down. But then I guess we are part of the younger generation in that class 

Not a great move with inflatable versions. Just hope the smock seams burst before your chest is crushed. But a good way to keep your lungs from filling with water... or air.

There’s a nice anecdote in Fatal Storm of a bowman stabbing himself in the chest to the amazement of the afterguard - who hadn’t realised the latest dunking had set his autoinflate off under his gear. He must’ve been stoked to then ride out the rest of that storm knowing he’d just fucked his life jacket. Anyone got some duct tape?

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6 hours ago, HFC Hunter said:

 

There’s a nice anecdote in Fatal Storm of a bowman stabbing himself in the chest to the amazement of the afterguard - who hadn’t realised the latest dunking had set his autoinflate off under his gear. He must’ve been stoked to then ride out the rest of that storm knowing he’d just fucked his life jacket. Anyone got some duct tape?

I've seen a variation of this. Going upwind on a 30 footer in a fresh breeze. Big wave come in, we all get really wet on the rail and the tactician says tacking ASAP, we all jump to either the winch or the other rail, jib gets sheeted in in no time and then we hear our Bowman shout "I am stuck". His PFD inflated just as we were tacking and he stayed on the rail stuck under the wire his feet dragging in the water. 

We threw in a double tack to extract Him and deflate his PFD. 

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On 2018-01-16 at 1:10 PM, HFC Hunter said:

Not a great move with inflatable versions. Just hope the smock seams burst before your chest is crushed. But a good way to keep your lungs from filling with water... or air.

There’s a nice anecdote in Fatal Storm of a bowman stabbing himself in the chest to the amazement of the afterguard - who hadn’t realised the latest dunking had set his autoinflate off under his gear. He must’ve been stoked to then ride out the rest of that storm knowing he’d just fucked his life jacket. Anyone got some duct tape?

No shit sherlock... You have to be really stupid to even consider using an inflatable lifejacket underneath a smock. During inshore races I prefer using a foam dingy life jacket. And yes the foam based dingy life jacket I wear underneath the smock or rash guard to improve agility when racing.

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Now that is a set back forestay... way back.

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1 minute ago, Bull City said:

Now that is a set back forestay... way back.

J24 rig on a 39’ Boat...

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At 24 sqm it's just about right. 

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It would be something to see a 30 square meter, like ORIOLE, against a J24 or J80, especially upwind.

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17 minutes ago, Bull City said:

It would be something to see a 30 square meter, like ORIOLE, against a J24 or J80, especially upwind.

We once killed a J100 upwind in a bit of a blow on my old 30 Square Metre.

I have been told that in heavy air a 30 will easily outrun a 6 Metre.

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19 hours ago, Bull City said:

It would be something to see a 30 square meter, like ORIOLE, against a J24 or J80, especially upwind.

I can confirm that a 30 square meter is going both higher and faster than both the J24 and J80 upwind. But when there is a bit of a breeze the J80 will go much faster downwind. There are crazy different angels going downwind between the 30 and the J80. 

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On 13/01/2018 at 8:19 PM, Ishmael said:

Chest-high lifelines? Sure. Maybe put in a white picket fence.

No, seriously, those were often rigged temporarily in a blow - I think they appear in that film of Dorade in the Atlantic race. 

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2 hours ago, Mr. Ed said:

Thank you Kim I’ll take one. What a backside!

No shit! I am having a very hard time avoiding acquiring that one........

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35 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

No shit! I am having a very hard time avoiding acquiring that one........

You may as well have a boat on the east coast, it's much easier than trucking Frankie back and forth.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

You may as well have a boat on the east coast, it's much easier than trucking Frankie back and forth.

Interesting idea.......

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35 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

Love the “Specifications”

Keel : Full

Better than "Probably".

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4 hours ago, kimbottles said:

Interesting idea.......

Or on the east side of the Atlantic even. I’ll keep her tuned up for you. 

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On 7/31/2017 at 6:51 PM, Amati said:

At the risk of..... something......, Mistah Speer posted that both work well, and that might infer an explanation of individual style of sailing being incredibly important: what Mistah Perry would call the .15% of the joy of boat design- 'let's talk racing'.  The joy of Art.

The Joy of Helmsmanship....and Sailmaking....and all that other stuff that turn us into sailing junkies...:wub:

Can you provide a link to a paper or posting by Speer indicating that overlap works well?

I mean, of course it does.

My point is not that overlap does not work, but that it is a less effective use of sail cloth than a longer luff. Higher aspect ratio certainly beats lower aspect ratio aerodynamically. Only non-aero concerns limits aspect ratio: structure, righting moment, spherical inertia, and perhaps aero drag from structure (lots of spreaders and shrouds or a really fat free standing spar).

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16 hours ago, carcrash said:

Can you provide a link to a paper or posting by Speer indicating that overlap works well?

I mean, of course it does.

My point is not that overlap does not work, but that it is a less effective use of sail cloth than a longer luff. Higher aspect ratio certainly beats lower aspect ratio aerodynamically. Only non-aero concerns limits aspect ratio: structure, righting moment, spherical inertia, and perhaps aero drag from structure (lots of spreaders and shrouds or a really fat free standing spar).

Thing is, Marchaj’s experimental data shows some results that aren’t intuitively obvious- ( or maybe they are, at least experientially :) )

-higher aspect is way better upwind in lighter air 

-lower aspect is better downwind as air speed increases

- lower aspect becomes better upwind as airspeed increases, and as the air gets bumpier ( I think Bethwaite might agree here )

these (Marchand) were aerodynamic results, and not tied to heeling moment, although there is an advantage there too.

 

 

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The Wylie Wabbit seems similar in concept to a skerry cruiser, except you wouldn't normally hike out on a skerry cruiser.

 

wabbit.jpg

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11 hours ago, captain_crunch said:

The Wylie Wabbit seems similar in concept to a skerry cruiser, except you wouldn't normally hike out on a skerry cruiser.

 

wabbit.jpg

Our son has one of those, he loves it.

skinny boat!

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45 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I’m thinking this boat is of the Skerry lineage. A “Lady Helmsman” for sale in Santa Cruz.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/boa/d/very-fast-and-in-santa-cruz/6716644854.html

 

a sister-ship

s157.jpg

Håkan Södergren design, was first presented ~1975, rather popular about 200 built. Yes, it does indeed have some similarities with a skerry, maybe somewhat heavy (~5 tons).  It is surprisingly slow to be of 41 ft LOA - in our local old rating system LYS it was said to be of 1.16 which is exactly the same as my old 34 ft  boat from 1980.  A faster version, GT, was developed, with higher mast and more sail area to improve light air performance. 

Build quality is so so, it was available int the very popular 3/4 ready versions where the buyer had to finish some parts. Some knew how to do that, others not. 

I happen to know some owners who are mostly happy with their boats - which owner isn't?  It is said to behave not so nicely in a chop, then as the freeboards are low combined with the weight it is rather wet; traditional Skerrys are light and then not so wet. 

The ad is somewhat optimistic, price is high (here the asking prices are around $ 15k for similar), engine is original ie very old and the MD 7A is special.  

Apart from all the above it is a nice boat :rolleyes:, nice to sail and easy to own. 

//J

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