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    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
dachopper

Sydney to Hobart 2017

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1 hour ago, NORBowGirl said:

This is very off topic, but you need to understand that this is innocent fun between the nordic countries, about our differences. Nothing racist about it, it comes from affection and special bonds. A Dane can call me a mountain monkey to my face and I can reply that not even other Danes understand what you're saying. As an example. 

Carry on :)

They have monkeys in the mountains of Norway ?   Who knew ?

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5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

When did Sydney Harbour shrink?

On Boxing day the maritime authority lays out clear channels for the race, and lines behind which the spectator craft must stay.  Racing craft are not allowed in the spectator area.  There is one hell of a lot of spectator craft, many manned by drunken idiots who do not know the colregs.

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7 hours ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

The owner of C reckons they were delayed 4-5 minutes by this incident

That's quite strange claim by them. Compared to what? If WO did not exist they may have made it 1-2 minutes faster throgh that part of the race. If WO had tacked 1/4 boat lenght earlier, it would have been a good leebow and damage to C would have been equal to what it was now.

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3 hours ago, dachopper said:

These rules are so stupid.

 

Wild Oats should have kept the line honors and been penalized a fixed amount.

 

To have a penalty that is undefinable and ranges from a turn to 5 minutes to being banned from the sport.......... seems a little bronze aged to me.

Grow the fuck up you child! 

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11 minutes ago, Joakim said:
7 hours ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

The owner of C reckons they were delayed 4-5 minutes by this incident

That's quite strange claim by them. Compared to what? If WO did not exist they may have made it 1-2 minutes faster throgh that part of the race. If WO had tacked 1/4 boat lenght earlier, it would have been a good leebow and damage to C would have been equal to what it was now.

Speculate on.  You may someday understand that the penalty has little to do with how long the infringed boat was delayed, something not knowable anyway.

It is only about what is the just penalty for the transgression.

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11 hours ago, Kududine said:

(B) Turning back and doing the turns in a 100ft maxi with 100 plus racing yachts heading at you in a narrow channel, is going to be full of risk, (C) Probably the penalty will only be maybe 10 minutes.

Here is a video of CQS doing 360 in about two minutes:

They did it here (about 0.2 Nm wide channel): https://webapp.navionics.com/?lang=en#boating@12&key={o`nJef_wC

 

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3 minutes ago, random said:

Speculate on.  You may someday understand that the penalty has little to do with how long the infringed boat was delayed, something not knowable anyway.

It is only about what is the just penalty for the transgression.

Not at all my point! As I have said earlier it is a penalty, which in most races would be DSQ or 30% scoring penalty and has nothing to do with time gained or lost due to it. But that does not make comments about C loosing 4-5 minutes on that any better.

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2 hours ago, NORBowGirl said:

This is very off topic, but you need to understand that this is innocent fun between the nordic countries, about our differences. Nothing racist about it, it comes from affection and special bonds. A Dane can call me a mountain monkey to my face and I can reply that not even other Danes understand what you're saying. As an example. 

Carry on :)

I even have a book about the nice things we Europeans say about each other.....

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Australian Sailing needs a celebrity bad boy that the media like, giving the mainstream media polished trust fund kids just reinforces the rich guy wins yacht race image the public already have. 

"Australian America's cup winning skipper John Smith was spotted sleeping outside his mansion at 3am on Tuesday morning, he shares the house with wife Miranda Kerr but the relationship is rumoured to be on the rocks after he was spotted celebrating his last win on a superyacht in St Bath with a bevy of topless women"

Put a picture of him with wife & kids in the article for good measure, make him the ambassador of a skin cancer charity for his sins, sign him up to dancing with the stars. 

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4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

He are the only two precedents for Line Honour stripping in the S2H and known by everyone before starting to be arguably arbitary. They has been one time/place penalty and one DSQ up to 2017.

1990 - Rothmans LH and 2nd HC.

Penalised  chain smoking Laurie Smith 10% of placings 20% on corrected time and stripped her of the line honours award for breaking Rule 26 (advertising) by flying a spinnaker with an illegal logo on it out of sight in the middle of Bass Strait.

IJ decision was Ragamuffin was awarded line honours, and first place overall on IOR corrected times went to Sagacious V.

1983 - Nirvana LH.

Bob Bell’s Condor of Bermuda and American Marvin Green’s Nirvana, were sailing side by side up the Derwent when Nirvana forced Condor into the shallows six nautical miles from the finish line.

Condor was stuck on a rock for five minutes and Nirvana won by two minutes and 16 seconds.

IJ ruled against Nirvana and she was disqualified and line honours awarded to Condor.

Anyone moaning and groaning about WOXI's 1 hour time or 1 place penalty need to give themselves an uppercut in light of the above precedents. There are many with some justification it should have been much stiffer.

PS. In light of failing to take a "on water" penalty in favour of risking a IJ "off water" penalty and looking to Spitball/Comanche to then withdraw their protest, both actions contry to the Rules, Richards needs to get his Blue Book and SI's out. Moaning then about the protest going to the IJ and blaming the other side for that, he should consult a head trauma specialist quick smart.

Then to boot moaning about the IJ penalty in light of the above LH penalty precedents and the rules, then Richo takes the 2017 Cunt Award and should think long and hard about luckily missing a Rule 69 bullet when accepting it.

 

You can tell him that to his face at the Hobart winners reunion Jack. Oh wait. That's right you won't be there.

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9 hours ago, RKoch said:

When I started sailing, the penalty for touching a mark was dsq.

So I'm not the only old bugger on here RKoch :-)

SS

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1 hour ago, random said:

Hobarts fade into the mind mist, most blur together and it gets harder to remember the details of each. 

This one will not.

It sure won't. The next boat to set the race record will have to beat Comarchie's time by 24 mins to know that they really are the fastest boat in the races history. Because we all know that Comarchie isn't. Beaten by a better crew on a slower boat. 

And mate you are really getting into the swing of things outside of PA. must have been quite a shock to find out about the other boards. Anyway tell us a few more of your great racing stories. How about some more about the club you left for your own safety because you were the only person who knew the rules. Come on mate don't be shy...

 

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1 minute ago, LB 15 said:

How about some more about the club you left for your own safety because you were the only person who new the rules. Come on mate don't be shy...

 

They were dangerous old cunts.  I recall a bottom mark where I shut the gate clear ahead and those on the following craft went fucking ballistic, shouting abuse, not realising that they were in the wrong in colregs, RRS and common dog-fuck.  It had to be explained to them later.  Dangerous place the bay full of old cunts with the first boat. 

Like richo, they think everyone should get out of the way.

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4 hours ago, Boatbeard said:

Well, WOXI sailed a fantastic race and well deserved line honours.

Failing to give way on port, or do anything other than that horrible tack right there - and then not taking the penalty when clearly hailed to do so means they have to cop it sweet.  Any kid sailing in our club past Opti green fleet knows give way to the right and take the penalty when called for a stuff up.  So there it is.  A trophy on a shelf with line honours on it,  a million pages of rants and twaddle and a thousand drunken bar arguments for years to come - and hopefully a rematch without the bs next year...

Congratulations to Comanche, also a fantastic race and the winner of the 2017 S2H.

I thought Ichy Bum won? 

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1 minute ago, random said:

They were dangerous old cunts.  I recall a bottom mark where I shut the gate clear ahead and those on the following craft went fucking ballistic, shouting abuse, not realising that they were in the wrong in colregs, RRS and common dog-fuck.  It had to be explained to them later.  Dangerous place the bay full of old cunts with the first boat. 

Like richo, they think everyone should get out of the way.

This 'rich cunts' seems to be a recurring theme with you. What was the club BTW?

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2 minutes ago, random said:

They were dangerous old cunts.  I recall a bottom mark where I shut the gate clear ahead and those on the following craft went fucking ballistic, shouting abuse, not realising that they were in the wrong in colregs, RRS and common dog-fuck.  It had to be explained to them later.  Dangerous place the bay full of old cunts with the first boat. 

Like richo, they think everyone should get out of the way.

MBBC?

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2 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

I thought Ichy Bum won? 

Line honours winner.  Of course I too had completely forgotten the other 100 boats...

 

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This going to the room about a minor incident is such a pussy response. In QLD races these things are sorted out in the bar. 

 

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3 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

MBBC?

Morton Bay Boys College? Didn't pick Randumb as the private school kind. Maybe 'the rich cunts' picked on him. 

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Just now, LB 15 said:

Morton Bay Boys College? Didn't pick Randumb as the private school kind. Maybe 'the rich cunts' picked on him. 

Moreton Bay Boat Club - Scarborough. 

I'm pretty sure their NOR for WAGS is colregs + a couple of basic RRS. Pursuit start, never seen anyone sail the spinnaker course for Wags. Well meaning folks who enjoy a cruise in company. 

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7 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Morton Bay Boys College? Didn't pick Randumb as the private school kind. Maybe 'the rich cunts' picked on him. 

You have a short memory for the club I left.

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14 hours ago, overlay said:

So you teach sailing and moonlight as a highly paid expert witness for all things marine? :D:D

You are quite right and my post incorrect. That was the 9th time (not 8th) that WOXI has taken line honers in this race. But why the butthurt cupcake? Just because you are clueless don't fret- it's not like you are the only one posting here. And sweetie thanks for the emoji's. Only a special kind of person uses them after their 12th birthday.

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1 hour ago, chuso007 said:

I even have a book about the nice things we Europeans say about each other.....

Is there anything in the book that’s nice to say to Nigel Farage?? :ph34r:

 

(yes, I know, PA is the second door on the left) 

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32 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

This going to the room about a minor incident is such a pussy response. In QLD races these things are sorted out in the bar. 

 

And that is really working out for everyone concerned so far!

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1 minute ago, lydia said:
35 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

This going to the room about a minor incident is such a pussy response. In QLD races these things are sorted out in the bar. 

 

And that is really working out for everyone concerned so far!

Lite Boy don't need no steenking rulzz.

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It is not over yet.

Maluka (Langman) vs Komatsu Azzurro (Kearns)

DTF only 1 mile difference with Sean 10 miles further to sea.

Great to see!

 

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I did a quick scan of Australian TV outlets on their Sydney to Hobart Race (S2H) coverage tonight with both Line Honurs (LH)  and Tattersalls (Handicap) podium honours now decided. 

Firstly good coverage of the little horses after last night's big horse controversy. Hats off to Matt Allen (who just happens to be Aust Sailings current head honcho and ex CYCA Commodore) finally cracking it after  trying 28 years to do so, and for a long time on his own boat.

Secondly, not a peep from Team Wild Oats (WOXI). So only public comments about Line Honours (LH) are those of other competitors, WOXI crew like Mark Mason's on Newstalk NZ and some WOXI sycophants.

Other S2H competitors quotes in this regard were universally along the lines of "do the crime, do the time."

So to the WOXI sycophants. Well this guy was a standout. 

His name is John Markos. John's bio is him being a Managing Partner of Hicksons Lawyers in Sydney and it seems advises clients in a range of commercial matters and in dispute resolution. So Mr Markos is both professionaly and very practically experienced with "black letter" laws and regulations, their interpretation, application and enforcement.

So this Mr Markos after hearing Jim Cooney (Comanche's owner) publicly state his reasons for protesting,  including reference to the S2H Race Rules and issues of safety for two vessels with a collective value in the tens of millions and upwards of 40 persons on board including family members, then made this following statement. 

By the way how do I know Mr Markos heard all that and was afforded air time? Simple, he represents the Race Organiser as CYCA Commodore and is the one who handed Jim Cooney owner of Comanche the LH silverware.

This is the entirety of what the RO via Mr Markos said as broadcast (word perfect as I recorded it on ABC Channel 2, 7.00pm AEDT) about the International Jury (IJ) imposing a one (1) hour penalty on WOXI (and with my emphasis).

"I was surprised, I was, I mean most everyone who was talking about it in the context of thinking if they had found against Wild Oats, that it would be minutes, or number of minutes"

So here we have the RO essentialy saying the RO wanted WOXI to win and the Rules of their own Race should just be set aside by the the IJ to allow that to occur.

By any objective assessment  that is totally outrageous coming from a RO and one where everyone expects and demands their views on the race to be both impartial and having the sports best interest at the front of their mind. Seems not.

So Mr Markos if you are reading this, I say this to you Sir.

OPEN LETTER TO MR JOHN MARKOS - COMMODORE CYCA

I listened and absorbed your views on Comanche's Line Honours win, and Race Record title for the Sydney to Hobart Race as expressed on Channel 2 ABC News tonite (7.00pm AEDT). That was in your capacity as the Race Organiser spokesperson about Wild Oats being penalised one (1) hour by the International Jury and being stripped of its title in favour of Comanche.

Your statement to the media was:

"I was surprised, I was, I mean most everyone who was talking about it in the context of thinking if they had found against Wild Oats, that it would be minutes, or number of minutes"

My response to you Sir is this:

1. By any objective assessment your view is one of surprise Wild Oats had to firstly defend a protest and then secondly dismay for the International Jury's to rule against them and the quantum of the penalty. 

I won't dwell on that last aspect other than to remind you of precedent in this regard set in 1983 and 1990 races involving a disqualification and penalty of ten placings and obviously the stripping of LH standings in both instances.

2. Thank goodness there is a International Jury for this event, as opposed to an "in house" CYCA Race Committee determining protests, with regard to the partesian views as you have expressed.

3. Despite your standing, including professional legal background, it would appear you have little regard for the "black letter" Rules attached to this sport, your own race, why they are there, yet let alone how they should be dealt with, on and off the race course by competitors and adjudicators alike.

4. To remind you of the rules of racing as we're broken  by Wild Oats and expressed by none other than the owner of Comanche and uttered publically before and after you handed over the trophy on stage to him, but you subsequently would appear to have little respect for.

That is Rule 13 when a boat that is tacking (changing tack and tack not completed) shall keep clear of boats that are not tacking. That is designed to avoid in this case two vessels colliding who have upwards of forty persons combined on board, a combined weight of over 60 tonnes with the extreme consequences attached to that and though probably irelevant, a combined value in the tens of millions of dollars. The latter probably only applies as regard to the Race Organiser being you as spokesperson promoting this race on the national and world stage.

5. It would appear you have little understanding of this sport, how it is viewed by the general public and things that need to be employed to advance it. Your own "one boat, one team should have won" partesian utterings support my interpretations. 

In short you clearly don't have any regard for the thousands from kids upwards who participate, support and in some instances seek role models at the top end and they aspire to be. They do that in the expectation rules apply and are respected no matter the economic and social standing of those involved.

6. Having regard for competitors who are members of your Club, some who have largely expressed the view on the record and contry to yours being, "do the crime, do the time". 

Then it is my expectation and hope if they are true to that view, they will kick you to the kerb at the earliest opportunity, or failing that, at the next General Election of your Club Office Bearers.

You and those of your ilk are a monumental blight on our sport. There is no place for you, so please disappear and let others that can do the job properly, do so.

Yours

The Sparrow.

 

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6 hours ago, Mid said:

I had the pleasure of sailing with Chas aboard Rothmans in the Sydney Hobart Race of 1990. It was a race that none on board will ever forget. The race record was within our grasp and the wind shut off. We had earlier torn a three-quarter ounce spinnaker to shreds and when we needed another, it had a Rothmans logo (which was against the rules for this race) on it, but it was argued that it wouldn’t be seen by anyone. However, we had not considered the presence of a photographer in a helicopter and Rothmans was penalised ten places at the finish.

https://www.facebook.com/chasfromTas/posts/1726283837642442

12741961_1685200565084103_4878787950493679487_n.jpg

 

Rothmans roaring across Bass Strait in the 1990 Sydney Hobart Race. The Admiral, Don Buckley, broke his collar bone, the boat took on about seven tons or more of water through the domed hatchway, she lost the spinnaker, down below was chaos and waist deep, the sails were awash inside the boat and Speizy was swept out of his bunk and ended up in the bow. When Rothmans took a nose dive at 26 knots like a submarine the cameras on this film couldn't record the moment as they too were submerged. For all this she was the first yacht home.
Thanks to crew member and photographer Rick Tomlinson for the photo.
Amongst a bunch of great guys and august crew members were skipper Lawrie Smith, Shag, Bob Fisher, Don Buckley, Dave Powys, Gordon McGuire, Paul Stanbridge and Chas.
If you want to see that race from on board Rothmans go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7-JEL-LXAo
for some more great action shots

Thanks for the YouTube link, seen the pictures and remember the whole spinnaker saga well, just never seen the documentary. 

Great blast from the past. 

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It is not over yet.

Maluka (Langman) vs Komatsu Azzurro (Kearns)

DTF only 1 mile difference with Sean 10 miles further to sea.

Great to see!

 

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

You can tell him that to his face at the Hobart winners reunion Jack. Oh wait. That's right you won't be there.

No I wasn't, I was at Moreton down the road from you but with bandwidth. I was wearing my Chas mask though and walked right past you and you didn't say hi??

images (53).jpeg

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19 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

OPEN LETTER TO MR JOHN MARKOS - COMMODORE CYCA

 

Your statement to the media was:

"I was surprised, I was, I mean most everyone who was talking about it in the context of thinking if they had found against Wild Oats, that it would be minutes, or number of minutes"

 

Yer I  heard that but didn't realise who the scumbag was.

Where do the clubs find these DUMB CUNTS?

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On 12/16/2016 at 11:55 PM, dachopper said:

So a little birdy just told me, they are coming to next year's Hobart with their new weapon.

 

Gamechanger!

If you're going to say nothing, keep your mouth shut!

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20 minutes ago, overlay said:

Yer I  heard that but didn't realise who the scumbag was.

Where do the clubs find these DUMB CUNTS?

Worse ...a dead cunt supporting a mob who will never show up again.

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2 hours ago, LB 15 said:

It sure won't. The next boat to set the race record will have to beat Comarchie's time by 24 mins to know that they really are the fastest boat in the races history. Because we all know that Comarchie isn't. Beaten by a better crew on a slower boat. 

And mate you are really getting into the swing of things outside of PA. must have been quite a shock to find out about the other boards. Anyway tell us a few more of your great racing stories. How about some more about the club you left for your own safety because you were the only person who knew the rules. Come on mate don't be shy...

 

Beaten by a boat more suited to the extreme drifting conditions the last couple of miles of the race. Yeah, that last part of the race is really hard core.

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7 hours ago, Dog Watch said:

There really are some stupid subjective, ingnorantly written or emotionally charged comments here.  OK -Time to put this to bed...

1.  The incident - A poorly executed leebow?  Hesitation during a cross?  Hesitation in a slam dunk?  Poor on board comms between the after guard?  Who knows?  Who cares?  We've all been there.  People make mistakes.  Get over it.

2 The rules - Rule 13, simple.  Only Rules 13, 14 and rule 16.1 are considered.  The jury concluded that LDVC did not change course, so 16.1 can be ruled out.  LDVC acted to avoid contact, and there was no collision, so rule 14 out.They concluded that LDVC had to take action to avoid while WOXI was tacking.  That's all.

No point in discussing rule 10 now.  That expired when WOXI passed HTW.  No point in discussing rule 15.  That only occurs after WOXI reached close-hauled.  No point in discussing 16.2.  At no time was WOXI sailing to pass astern of LDVC.

3.  Not taking a penalty - That is the right of any boat.  If they believe that they did not break a rule, or were not sure because it was close (and judging by this discussion it was), then they have a right to take their chances in the protest room.  This does not represent poor sportsmanship or even foolishness. It is in the rules for them to do.  Both parties (including WOXI agree that it was close, with WOXI crew proposing a 50/50 situation).   If they knew they had broken a rule, then yes, we could question sportsmanship.  In this case, no. Move along.

In reflection, they may have misjudged how close it was, and kick themselves for that.  We may all have acted differently.  It probably was a poor risk/reward judgement.  However, at the time, her decision to continue was justified and within the rules and principals of sportsmanship, since they thought they had not broken a rule, or were not convinced enough to take a penalty at the time.  Her right to make that call.

4 The Protest - Nothing wrong with LDVC's decision to take this to the room.  It is a fundimental principal of all competitors to enforce the rules.  That's all she did.  Not doing that is possibly more destructive to the sport.  Furthermore, if you believe in the rules and that they are a part of the sport, then you should fully support her decision to go ahead (for whatever motives - win, principals, morals, sponsor pressure, etc...) with the protest.  Both boats agreed to be bound by the rules; those rules include the protest and penalty procedure.

5.  The Time Penalty - Of course it needs to be more than 5 minutes in order to be a penalty! Duh!    The penalty must be in line with the penalty system of the event.  In the SIs for this event specify penalties ranging from 5 minutes minimum to DSQ.  In between those extremes are 20% for not submitting a declaration, 30% for an offshore breach of Part 2 and OCS, 40% as maximum time penalty, and then DSQ for the most heinous of crimes.  It stands to reason that the time penalty for an inshore breach of Part 2 should be somewhere between not submitting a declaration on time, and the offshore Part 2.  So 20-30% of position in her division.  That's what the jury did. Her time penalty worsened her IRC Div 0 position by about 20-30% of all the IRC Div 0 boats.

Discretionary Penalties (DPs) are becoming more popular.  There is even a new scoring code for it.  The principal suggests that not all rule breaches are the same.  That seems sensible.  Good practice is still being developed.  If DP is to be used, Race Organisers and Juries need to have a clear penalty structure for DPs, which is fair and well known.  Many events already have one, which they publish to competitors.  In this S2H, the SIs were a little ambiguous.  Maybe more structure and guidance could be given on the penalty system.

6.  Winning in the room - WTF?  No one has won in the room. The incident took place on the water in this case.

Those who think that this is sea-lawyering or 'winning in the room' are normally the ones who either don't know all the rules or don't fully respect the rules.  If they did, they would know that in this sport, there is no way to resolve some on-the-water conflicts, other than going to the room.  They would know that the rules are designed to give competitors the chance to exonerate OR to have the decision reached by an independent panel.  They would know that not enforcing the rules (including the 'Oh, forget about it!' approach) is not good for the sport.

7.  WOXI's Elapsed Time - Her RACE Elapsed Time is the time she took in this 'event/race/competition'.  In this race it was 01:09:15:24.  That is 33 minutes behind LDVC.  There is NO OTHER elapsed time. End Of.

8.  Race Record - Read it carefully...the 'RACE' record.  That is a record set during an edition of Sydney to Hobart Race.  The race record is only held by a boat who has sailed the course correctly, and complied with the rules or taken penalties under the rules for any breaches made during the race.  WOXI did not break any race record this year.  Unlucky.  LDVC did.

9.  'The Fastest Crossing Between Sydney and Hobart' - If someone wants to go and make a seperate unrelated trophy for 'The Fastest Crossing Between Sydney and Hobart', then go ahead and give it to WOXI! Well done her.

See how long it lasts though, before people abuse that trophy's lack of moderation.  The organised S2H race event is the moderator of that record for a reason.  It sets bounds within we can be comfortable that a boat has acheived that feat fairly and measurably.  In which case WOXI did not gain any known record.

10.  The messages this sends to kids and non-sailors - That sailing is a complex sport.  That even the best make mistakes.  That if you break a rule you may (and should) be penalised.  That even long races can be so close that a single penalty can make the difference between winning and losing.

11.  WOXI attitude after the decision? - Whatever!  Of course they will be disappointed!  They thought they were right!  Someone always goes away dissatisfied after a hearing.  Moral win?  Fine; let them enjoy the fact that they sailed very fast, if that is what they want to measure their success by.  Let's face it, they did sail fast and well.  Just from the 'race' point of view they did not beat LDVC (see #7).  Nothing in that interview suggested WOXI were not accepting the decision.

That's about it.

Well done to LDVC.  Well done to Ichi Ban and all the others who won divisions, got on the podium or achieved a personal best.

Thanks. Nice summary. I'd also encourage folks to watch the video on the front page with Oakleys comments about halfway through it. Most links to that interview edit his out (or maybe I only finally watched the full interview after it was mentioned! ).

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1 hour ago, overlay said:

Yer I  heard that but didn't realise who the scumbag was.

Where do the clubs find these DUMB CUNTS?

 

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Worse ...a dead cunt supporting a mob who will never show up again.

Over actually I forgot to say that in saying what he did but obviously implied, he shitted over Cooney a member of his own club who has secured on Australian soil the world's premier "mono weapon" and by extension survival of the S2H having a local contender in the maxi stakes. 

I'm flabgasted by this fool that in a couple of sound bytes elected to shit over his own race, the outcome, winners as recorded and quite frankly everyone, just to stick it seems his head up the Oatley/WOXI arsehole.

Mind boggling....wonder how much he dipped into his own pocket for his Hobart Xmas 5 star tour and if not, where the bucks came from?...mmm

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2 hours ago, sunseeker said:

Beaten by a boat more suited to the extreme drifting conditions the last couple of miles of the race. Yeah, that last part of the race is really hard core.

I think it's worth a reminder that Comanche wasn't built for any one particular race or race record. It was designed and built for chasing outright records, not drifting in the Derwent. The real shame is she hasn't really done that over the course of her career...

The real question is what mods were done to WOXI in preparation for this race that allowed her to keep pace with the big Indian in breeze on conditions? The boats been chopped soo many times it's hard to keep up...

terrafirma, yes there are a pair of relatively recent TP52's available on the U.S East Coast at fire sale prices. PM if you want more details. Jack is right however that they aren't full updated and wouldn't be be competitive without Ichi, but they don't have new boat price tags and in most all U.S offshore races you'd still be pretty close to the front of the line at the bar with some good naviguessing.

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21 minutes ago, samc99us said:

I think it's worth a reminder that Comanche wasn't built for any one particular race or race record. It was designed and built for chasing outright records, not drifting in the Derwent. The real shame is she hasn't really done that over the course of her career...

Has your spaceship just landed?? Send us your cordinates and we will bring you coffee and our first born as a peace offering.

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Gonna set protest aside and talk boats...

we've seen in past Comanche annihilate WOXI reaching...example: the start of 2015 S2H. And we've seen WOXI annihilate Comanche in the lighter stuff, particularly running. This years race, running in 25 kn of wind or so, the boats seemed pretty even , with Comanche holding a steady lead of 9-10 miles for several hours on end. Off the Tasmania coast as the boats got into a band of 35 kn or so, WOXI demolished Comanche's lead quite rapidly. The tracker chose that moment to go on the fritz, so it was hard to tell what was happening. Did Comanche have a sail issue? Or was it pure boat speed?  Just as a theory, I think that in that strong a wind, with boat speed in the 30+ kn range, both boats were going much quicker than the waves and WOXI's narrower beam got her through the waves easier. Other possible factors being WOXI a bit lighter (?) and with less deck area was carrying less weight of water on deck , and/or it drained off more rapidly.

Thoughts?

 

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Re: “winning in the room,” a foul is a foul. If you score a touchdown in (American) football and one of your teammates nowhere near the play gets flagged for an illegal block, it’s not a touchdown. As I’ve said before, it is undoubtably sad that events have transpired in this way, as no one (at least most impartial observers) wants to see an otherwise beautiful performance negated due to a boneheaded decision. But that’s the tragedy of sports. I do have to say some of the WOXI guys are playing the part of unrepentant heel admirably.

Also, to my eye that incident had every bit the look of “we’ll cross... yeah, we’re still making it... it’ll be close but we’ll have it... OHFUCKTACK!!!!!”

Overall I’m sad. Some people like to watch dynasties fall, but I like to watch legacies be built. It would have been a hell of a story if WOXI pulled it off, but now it’s just a morality play that overshadows a fantastic race.

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33 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Gonna set protest aside and talk boats...

we've seen in past Comanche annihilate WOXI reaching...example: the start of 2015 S2H. And we've seen WOXI annihilate Comanche in the lighter stuff, particularly running. This years race, running in 25 kn of wind or so, the boats seemed pretty even , with Comanche holding a steady lead of 9-10 miles for several hours on end. Off the Tasmania coast as the boats got into a band of 35 kn or so, WOXI demolished Comanche's lead quite rapidly. The tracker chose that moment to go on the fritz, so it was hard to tell what was happening. Did Comanche have a sail issue? Or was it pure boat speed?  Just as a theory, I think that in that strong a wind, with boat speed in the 30+ kn range, both boats were going much quicker than the waves and WOXI's narrower beam got her through the waves easier. Other possible factors being WOXI a bit lighter (?) and with less deck area was carrying less weight of water on deck , and/or it drained off more rapidly.

Thoughts?

 

Kochie simple

If we had YB data like every other YB tracker platform except this piece of shit served up by the CYC you would simply dial up miles over the ground sailed to answer your questions. 

Without that and WOXI being able to go at times up to 10 degrees deeper with better VMG than Comanche without too much difference in BS, my guess is the extra miles Comanche sailed would shock a lot of people.

Honey's skill pulling that off to keep Comanche in front in these DDW conditions was pretty awsome.

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11 hours ago, Dog Watch said:

There really are some stupid subjective, ingnorantly written or emotionally charged comments here.  OK -Time to put this to bed...

1.  The incident - A poorly executed leebow?  Hesitation during a cross?  Hesitation in a slam dunk?  Poor on board comms between the after guard?  Who knows?  Who cares?  We've all been there.  People make mistakes.  Get over it.

2 The rules - Rule 13, simple.  Only Rules 13, 14 and rule 16.1 are considered.  The jury concluded that LDVC did not change course, so 16.1 can be ruled out.  LDVC acted to avoid contact, and there was no collision, so rule 14 out.They concluded that LDVC had to take action to avoid while WOXI was tacking.  That's all.

No point in discussing rule 10 now.  That expired when WOXI passed HTW.  No point in discussing rule 15.  That only occurs after WOXI reached close-hauled.  No point in discussing 16.2.  At no time was WOXI sailing to pass astern of LDVC.

3.  Not taking a penalty - That is the right of any boat.  If they believe that they did not break a rule, or were not sure because it was close (and judging by this discussion it was), then they have a right to take their chances in the protest room.  This does not represent poor sportsmanship or even foolishness. It is in the rules for them to do.  Both parties (including WOXI agree that it was close, with WOXI crew proposing a 50/50 situation).   If they knew they had broken a rule, then yes, we could question sportsmanship.  In this case, no. Move along.

In reflection, they may have misjudged how close it was, and kick themselves for that.  We may all have acted differently.  It probably was a poor risk/reward judgement.  However, at the time, her decision to continue was justified and within the rules and principals of sportsmanship, since they thought they had not broken a rule, or were not convinced enough to take a penalty at the time.  Her right to make that call.

4 The Protest - Nothing wrong with LDVC's decision to take this to the room.  It is a fundimental principal of all competitors to enforce the rules.  That's all she did.  Not doing that is possibly more destructive to the sport.  Furthermore, if you believe in the rules and that they are a part of the sport, then you should fully support her decision to go ahead (for whatever motives - win, principals, morals, sponsor pressure, etc...) with the protest.  Both boats agreed to be bound by the rules; those rules include the protest and penalty procedure.

5.  The Time Penalty - Of course it needs to be more than 5 minutes in order to be a penalty! Duh!    The penalty must be in line with the penalty system of the event.  In the SIs for this event specify penalties ranging from 5 minutes minimum to DSQ.  In between those extremes are 20% for not submitting a declaration, 30% for an offshore breach of Part 2 and OCS, 40% as maximum time penalty, and then DSQ for the most heinous of crimes.  It stands to reason that the time penalty for an inshore breach of Part 2 should be somewhere between not submitting a declaration on time, and the offshore Part 2.  So 20-30% of position in her division.  That's what the jury did. Her time penalty worsened her IRC Div 0 position by about 20-30% of all the IRC Div 0 boats.

Discretionary Penalties (DPs) are becoming more popular.  There is even a new scoring code for it.  The principal suggests that not all rule breaches are the same.  That seems sensible.  Good practice is still being developed.  If DP is to be used, Race Organisers and Juries need to have a clear penalty structure for DPs, which is fair and well known.  Many events already have one, which they publish to competitors.  In this S2H, the SIs were a little ambiguous.  Maybe more structure and guidance could be given on the penalty system.

6.  Winning in the room - WTF?  No one has won in the room. The incident took place on the water in this case.

Those who think that this is sea-lawyering or 'winning in the room' are normally the ones who either don't know all the rules or don't fully respect the rules.  If they did, they would know that in this sport, there is no way to resolve some on-the-water conflicts, other than going to the room.  They would know that the rules are designed to give competitors the chance to exonerate OR to have the decision reached by an independent panel.  They would know that not enforcing the rules (including the 'Oh, forget about it!' approach) is not good for the sport.

7.  WOXI's Elapsed Time - Her RACE Elapsed Time is the time she took in this 'event/race/competition'.  In this race it was 01:09:15:24.  That is 33 minutes behind LDVC.  There is NO OTHER elapsed time. End Of.

8.  Race Record - Read it carefully...the 'RACE' record.  That is a record set during an edition of Sydney to Hobart Race.  The race record is only held by a boat who has sailed the course correctly, and complied with the rules or taken penalties under the rules for any breaches made during the race.  WOXI did not break any race record this year.  Unlucky.  LDVC did.

9.  'The Fastest Crossing Between Sydney and Hobart' - If someone wants to go and make a seperate unrelated trophy for 'The Fastest Crossing Between Sydney and Hobart', then go ahead and give it to WOXI! Well done her.

See how long it lasts though, before people abuse that trophy's lack of moderation.  The organised S2H race event is the moderator of that record for a reason.  It sets bounds within we can be comfortable that a boat has acheived that feat fairly and measurably.  In which case WOXI did not gain any known record.

10.  The messages this sends to kids and non-sailors - That sailing is a complex sport.  That even the best make mistakes.  That if you break a rule you may (and should) be penalised.  That even long races can be so close that a single penalty can make the difference between winning and losing.

11.  WOXI attitude after the decision? - Whatever!  Of course they will be disappointed!  They thought they were right!  Someone always goes away dissatisfied after a hearing.  Moral win?  Fine; let them enjoy the fact that they sailed very fast, if that is what they want to measure their success by.  Let's face it, they did sail fast and well.  Just from the 'race' point of view they did not beat LDVC (see #7).  Nothing in that interview suggested WOXI were not accepting the decision.

That's about it.

Well done to LDVC.  Well done to Ichi Ban and all the others who won divisions, got on the podium or achieved a personal best.

I read the above as a quote in another post and had to go find it to add a couple of words myself.

First of all I wish I had written it because it is a well reasoned and, in my view, sensible and accurate summary of the whole 'affair'.

I particularly agree with Dongwatch's point about the 'woolly-ness' of the discretionary penalties in the SI's.

Basically it does rather appear that the organising committee of Australia's premier offshore racing event abdicated that element of the race management to what were (thankfully) "5 good men and true" who used their collective knowledge, skill and experience to arrive at a suitable PENALTY. After all what use is a penalty if it doesn't hurt and provide a lesson. In this case a lesson to more than the penalised boat.

I admit that I was disappointed in the CYCA Commodore's comment about the size of penalty. As the International Jury were appointed by the club of which he is the head he should have been nothing but supportive to their findings. Disagree over a G&T with your mates but not in a radio interview with, I assume, a large audience.

One positive I take from the incident is I now have another video I can use at my rules seminars here in China to illustrate the rules. Perhaps pause as WOXI approached on port and ask "What happened next?" :-)

Anyway, in deference or respect to Dogwatch it is now 0200 in China time - right in the middle of the Dogwatches. Time to shut down

SS

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Forss, you da man. Wow, that does explain a lot. 

I think what was throwing me off was the DTF listed on the CYCA standings was calculated on the rhumbline, not jibing angles. So for the entire long jibe across Bass Strait the delta appeared constant, but in reality WO's better VMG was cutting in to C's lead. Once C jibed to starboard and the boats closed on alignment with turning mark, the delta appeared to rapidly diminish...however the reality was that it had been steadily diminishing all along.

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6 hours ago, LB 15 said:

This going to the room about a minor incident is such a pussy response. In QLD races these things are sorted out in the bar. 

 

Yeah. But these are yachts, LB, not dromedaries.

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9 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

I admit that I was disappointed in the CYCA Commodore's comment about the size of penalty. 

Disagree over a G&T with your mates but not in a radio interview with, I assume, a large audience.

Shang interview on ABC/National TV (what is a radio?) and sorry not even over a G&T do you do that if you are the RO.

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2 hours ago, dachopper said:

So....... Hypothetically....... Black jack need more RM to go quicker vmg running, or is it more RM to get more sail?

 

Have you ever sailed in your life? You don't need more RM be quicker VMG running. If it was about RM while VMG running them Comanche would have slaughtered Oats down the Tasmanian coast(which didn't happen). Oats was able to keep up with Comanche due to the bow and sprit mods they did 3 years ago, as well as movement of the rig aft. 

 

39 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Forss, you da man. Wow, that does explain a lot. 

I think what was throwing me off was the DTF listed on the CYCA standings was calculated on the rhumbline, not jibing angles. So for the entire long jibe across Bass Strait the delta appeared constant, but in reality WO's better VMG was cutting in to C's lead. Once C jibed to starboard and the boats closed on alignment with turning mark, the delta appeared to rapidly diminish...however the reality was that it had been steadily diminishing all along.

 

Correct, Comanche was slowly bleeding miles until Tasman light. Oats took about 12 miles out of them over the course of 18 hours, mainly due to sailing 5-10 degrees lower than Comanche. 

 

I'd like to see the two boats go head to head in a Hawaii race. More of a true BS race with enough reaching and running that on paper it would be close. 

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7 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I did a quick scan of Australian TV outlets on their Sydney to Hobart Race (S2H) coverage tonight with both Line Honurs (LH)  and Tattersalls (Handicap) podium honours now decided. 

Firstly good coverage of the little horses after last night's big horse controversy. Hats off to Matt Allen (who just happens to be Aust Sailings current head honcho and ex CYCA Commodore) finally cracking it after  trying 28 years to do so, and for a long time on his own boat.

Secondly, not a peep from Team Wild Oats (WOXI). So only public comments about Line Honours (LH) are those of other competitors, WOXI crew like Mark Mason's on Newstalk NZ and some WOXI sycophants.

Other S2H competitors quotes in this regard were universally along the lines of "do the crime, do the time."

So to the WOXI sycophants. Well this guy was a standout. 

His name is John Markos. John's bio is him being a Managing Partner of Hicksons Lawyers in Sydney and it seems advises clients in a range of commercial matters and in dispute resolution. So Mr Markos is both professionaly and very practically experienced with "black letter" laws and regulations, their interpretation, application and enforcement.

So this Mr Markos after hearing Jim Cooney (Comanche's owner) publicly state his reasons for protesting,  including reference to the S2H Race Rules and issues of safety for two vessels with a collective value in the tens of millions and upwards of 40 persons on board including family members, then made this following statement. 

By the way how do I know Mr Markos heard all that and was afforded air time? Simple, he represents the Race Organiser as CYCA Commodore and is the one who handed Jim Cooney owner of Comanche the LH silverware.

This is the entirety of what the RO via Mr Markos said as broadcast (word perfect as I recorded it on ABC Channel 2, 7.00pm AEDT) about the International Jury (IJ) imposing a one (1) hour penalty on WOXI (and with my emphasis).

"I was surprised, I was, I mean most everyone who was talking about it in the context of thinking if they had found against Wild Oats, that it would be minutes, or number of minutes"

So here we have the RO essentialy saying the RO wanted WOXI to win and the Rules of their own Race should just be set aside by the the IJ to allow that to occur.

By any objective assessment  that is totally outrageous coming from a RO and one where everyone expects and demands their views on the race to be both impartial and having the sports best interest at the front of their mind. Seems not.

So Mr Markos if you are reading this, I say this to you Sir.

OPEN LETTER TO MR JOHN MARKOS - COMMODORE CYCA

I listened and absorbed your views on Comanche's Line Honours win, and Race Record title for the Sydney to Hobart Race as expressed on Channel 2 ABC News tonite (7.00pm AEDT). That was in your capacity as the Race Organiser spokesperson about Wild Oats being penalised one (1) hour by the International Jury and being stripped of its title in favour of Comanche.

Your statement to the media was:

"I was surprised, I was, I mean most everyone who was talking about it in the context of thinking if they had found against Wild Oats, that it would be minutes, or number of minutes"

My response to you Sir is this:

1. By any objective assessment your view is one of surprise Wild Oats had to firstly defend a protest and then secondly dismay for the International Jury's to rule against them and the quantum of the penalty. 

I won't dwell on that last aspect other than to remind you of precedent in this regard set in 1983 and 1990 races involving a disqualification and penalty of ten placings and obviously the stripping of LH standings in both instances.

2. Thank goodness there is a International Jury for this event, as opposed to an "in house" CYCA Race Committee determining protests, with regard to the partesian views as you have expressed.

3. Despite your standing, including professional legal background, it would appear you have little regard for the "black letter" Rules attached to this sport, your own race, why they are there, yet let alone how they should be dealt with, on and off the race course by competitors and adjudicators alike.

4. To remind you of the rules of racing as we're broken  by Wild Oats and expressed by none other than the owner of Comanche and uttered publically before and after you handed over the trophy on stage to him, but you subsequently would appear to have little respect for.

That is Rule 13 when a boat that is tacking (changing tack and tack not completed) shall keep clear of boats that are not tacking. That is designed to avoid in this case two vessels colliding who have upwards of forty persons combined on board, a combined weight of over 60 tonnes with the extreme consequences attached to that and though probably irelevant, a combined value in the tens of millions of dollars. The latter probably only applies as regard to the Race Organiser being you as spokesperson promoting this race on the national and world stage.

5. It would appear you have little understanding of this sport, how it is viewed by the general public and things that need to be employed to advance it. Your own "one boat, one team should have won" partesian utterings support my interpretations. 

In short you clearly don't have any regard for the thousands from kids upwards who participate, support and in some instances seek role models at the top end and they aspire to be. They do that in the expectation rules apply and are respected no matter the economic and social standing of those involved.

6. Having regard for competitors who are members of your Club, some who have largely expressed the view on the record and contry to yours being, "do the crime, do the time". 

Then it is my expectation and hope if they are true to that view, they will kick you to the kerb at the earliest opportunity, or failing that, at the next General Election of your Club Office Bearers.

You and those of your ilk are a monumental blight on our sport. There is no place for you, so please disappear and let others that can do the job properly, do so.

Yours

The Sparrow.

 

Want to sign that with your real name? No you probobly are not game enough to do that...

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19 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Audio, at http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/sport/kiwi-sailor-matt-manson-rips-into-jimmy-spithill-and-comanche-after-sydney-hobart/

... Matt Mason is dumbfounded by the one hour penalty they've been given as they feel it would have taken them five minutes to serve the penalty on the water.

So he thinks that thieves should be fined no more than they got away with. 

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7 hours ago, random said:

Lite Boy don't need no steenking rulzz.

No rainy face I never said that. In fact I never tried to predict the outcome of the protest like most here. It was certainly not a simple port/starboard (that's why it took a jury of IJ's over 3 hours to decide) and nothing is ever straight forward in the room. My point is that who the fuck wants a trophy that you didn't earn? I in fact have had an a start line bingle with XI myself. Keppel race a few years back- pin end was traffic free and Ricko reached in over the top of us. We called then up but I don't think they could hear us over the sound of the engine and the screech of loaded carbon and we had duck the pin and gybe around. Anyway by the time we got to the finish we had destroyed them on PHS so we didn't follow through with the protest. We were going to just punch on with them in the bar but there were 26 of them and only 6 of us and by the time we finished the boat was tied up in hammo and the crew were all back in Sydney. Fuck him I have nicer hair than Ricko anyway.

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6 hours ago, sunseeker said:

Beaten by a boat more suited to the extreme drifting conditions the last couple of miles of the race. Yeah, that last part of the race is really hard core.

You're not very good at this are you. Why do you follow me around trying to jiz on my leg?

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    There is NOTHING out of line with the time penalty handed down. Look at the penalties for other yachts who did not follow procedures, and past histories of penalties. If you minimized time penalties to about the time lost on the racecourse, NO ONE would do circles, all would take any incident to the jury. The sport could not survive with that mentality.  (neither could the juries) So a incident which is not absolved on the water  must carry a significant penalty, to force caution & adherence to the rules.

    Can anyone even reference a jury decision of mere minutes for an infraction??

   The WO/CO situation is almost always decided in the favor of the stbd boat, as it is first & foremost trying to prevent collisions. It is almost entirely up to the stbd  boats helm to decide what is enuff room to keep clear / avoid a collision.  Yes, some small boat fleets may cut that room down to inches or 'no contact/no foul" but that is entirely up to that small group. And their damages/repair bills are a whole lot smaller. There could have been 10's of thousands of damages if CO had run into the stern of WO, & very possibly crew injuries also.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Forss you really are the king..I was thinking around 50nm extra for C but had no way of proving it.

Can clean do a word count on this thread? I was thinking you won with over 50k words in this thread but have no way of proving it.

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On 12/27/2017 at 11:34 AM, longy said:

 

 '69 Trans-pac Windward Passage had a pre-start protest against her.  Passage hit a MOB pole sticking out well behind the other boat. This incident led to further definition of equipment "in it's proper place". Still cost Passage a race record & win. 2 hour time penalty.

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1 minute ago, LB 15 said:

No rainy face I never said that. In fact I never tried to predict the outcome of the protest like most here. It was certainly not a simple port/starboard (that's why it took a jury of IJ's over 3 hours to decide) and nothing is ever straight forward in the room. My point is that who the fuck wants a trophy that you didn't earn? I in fact have had an a start line bingle with XI myself. Keppel race a few years back- pin end was traffic free and Ricko reached in over the top of us. We called then up but I don't think they could hear us over the sound of the engine and the screech of loaded carbon and we had duck the pin and gybe around. Anyway by the time we got to the finish we had destroyed them on PHS so we didn't follow through with the protest. We were going to just punch on with them in the bar but there were 26 of them and only 6 of us and by the time we finished the boat was tied up in hammo and the crew were all back in Sydney. Fuck him I have nicer hair than Ricko anyway.

The sub-text to this, not spoken about, is that almost every RRS sailor has stories to tell about the big boat that refused to observe the rules, identical to the one you tell here. 

An ''i've got the bigger boat so fuck-off" attitude.  In the WO S2H case it is more "we are WO, we own this race so fuck-off" unspoken, but sailors recognise it when they see it.  Everything MR has said and done since backs that up.

It was a blatant Rule 13  infringement so I suspect most of the time in the Room was in deciding the appropriate penalty.

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46 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

No rainy face I never said that. In fact I never tried to predict the outcome of the protest like most here. It was certainly not a simple port/starboard (that's why it took a jury of IJ's over 3 hours to decide) and nothing is ever straight forward in the room. My point is that who the fuck wants a trophy that you didn't earn? I in fact have had an a start line bingle with XI myself. Keppel race a few years back- pin end was traffic free and Ricko reached in over the top of us. We called then up but I don't think they could hear us over the sound of the engine and the screech of loaded carbon and we had duck the pin and gybe around. Anyway by the time we got to the finish we had destroyed them on PHS so we didn't follow through with the protest. We were going to just punch on with them in the bar but there were 26 of them and only 6 of us and by the time we finished the boat was tied up in hammo and the crew were all back in Sydney. Fuck him I have nicer hair than Ricko anyway.

The entire hearing was 3 hours. There were several witnesses giving testimony. IDK how long the decision process was, but I think the guilty finding was pretty quick, and the bulk of time was deciding an appropriate penalty. I think they got it pretty spot-on.

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I'm surprised how many seem to think that the protest should have been let go by Comanche. If I was fouled I sure as shit would want the other boat to do take her turns (or her appropriate penalty). It is a self policing sport up to a point. And if that fails, thats why there are protest committees, and in this race's case, an International Jury. 

I think the biggest surprise about this whole saga isn't that there was a protest, or that there was an incident in the first place. Rather, I find it most surprising that the brain trust on Wild Oats was so convinced of their innocence at the time to not do turns. Did nobody on that boat think "hey we may have fucked up, lets burn 5 minutes and absolve ourselves of a potential catastrophic result in the protest room"? And then the (over)confidence displayed when they got to Hobart thinking that the protest held no water. I have no idea what was happening in their heads, but it seems like they all convinced themselves of their innocence, and even after the jury declared a finding against them, there were defiant words coming out that camp such as "the jury had a job to do." The jury's job is to make sure the boats follow the fucking rules, and in the absence of that, hand out appropriate penalties!

I find that disappointing the lack of accountability. Yes, its just a sailboat race, but it could have played out more positively with a different attitude from the Wild Oats XI contingent. Ricko and friends could have met Comanche at the dock with some beers and said "Oops, our bad" but instead they doubled down in the media, and did so again after they were found guilty.

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14 hours ago, paps49 said:

You posted it as fact dipstick.

Cooney is a classy guy who just schooled an obnoxious brat who had it coming. Just my 2c.

Fuck you. You think can you diviner my intent? It was posted as an fyi for those discussing their perceptions of MR's attitude. 

Just wow. What is it about Aussies that they carry such a chip on their shoulder. Inferiority complex maybe?

 

 

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8 hours ago, lydia said:

It is not over yet.

Maluka (Langman) vs Komatsu Azzurro (Kearns)

DTF only 1 mile difference with Sean 10 miles further to sea.

Great to see!

I was surprised to see the First 45, Opt2Go Scamp, in the remaining and then I saw the tracker. Must have run out of beer and went to Eden to restock.

Komatsu Azzurro must have a speed advantage in the parking lot over Maluka? Maluka baffles me. Last year I was thinking that if my Jeanneau was in the S2H that she was one boat we could finish in front of, but then I saw an interview where the owner said they did something like 15 or 17 knots when surfing. I think that's when I started realising she needs to go on a serious diet and a big wardrobe upgrade and then deciding to sell and buy something better suited...

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

 Anyway by the time we got to the finish we had destroyed them on PHS so we didn't follow through with the protest. 

So you let the cheaters cheat and everyone else in the race can get fucked. You must be so proud.;)

And you teach sailing and moonlight as a highly paid expert witness for all things marine? :D:D

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29 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I was surprised to see the First 45, Opt2Go Scamp, in the remaining and then I saw the tracker. Must have run out of beer and went to Eden to restock.

Komatsu Azzurro must have a speed advantage in the parking lot over Maluka? Maluka baffles me. Last year I was thinking that if my Jeanneau was in the S2H that she was one boat we could finish in front of, but then I saw an interview where the owner said they did something like 15 or 17 knots when surfing. I think that's when I started realising she needs to go on a serious diet and a big wardrobe upgrade and then deciding to sell and buy something better suited...

Langman knows a thing or two about sailing..

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12 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Your wrong. Port / Starboard Rule 10  ceased after WOXI passed HTW. It then became a Rule 13 when a boat that is tacking (changing tack and tack not completed) shall keep clear of boats that are not tacking.

OK

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12 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Dog I've framed that.

Meant to write, from the video it looked to me like WOXI was not on STBD and that Comanche had to alter course well before WOXI had gone HTW. Thus my interpretation. From the angle of the video I saw. Again I emphasise I wasn't there. You may have other video or talked to people on the boats involved.

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12 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Except it wasn't a port starboard incident in that the tack had had been made and both on starboard, the question was whether it had been completed or not and whether WOXI was in the clear with rights so placing Comanche with the responsibility to avoid a collision. The IJ determined WOXI had no such rights and were penalised accordingly. 

Pays to read here first before posting.

And no Jack I wasn't going to read 37 pages of postings just to check my opinion was in tune with the SA consensus. 

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There are 3 videos of which I'm aware and seen.

Video 1 is from the media person aboard WOXI. From it it can't be determined the exact positions of the boats, or exactly when WO completed their tack. It does show that initially WO appears to have a close cross, which then goes away, and that the boats were close together in the incident. Notably, spray from C's bow flashes before the camera just aft WO's stern.

Video 2 is from above, in front of the boats nearly ahead of C. It can't be determined how close the boats were, perhaps b/c of foreshortening due to telephoto lens, but it does show C altering course above closehauled before WO is on closehauled course.

Video 3 is also from above, astern and a bit to windward of C. It also shows C avoiding a collision before WO assumes a closehauled course, and also shows that had C held course until WO completed their tack a collision probably would be likely. IMO this third video was the most damning for WO.

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2 hours ago, random said:

The sub-text to this, not spoken about, is that almost every RRS sailor has stories to tell about the big boat that refused to observe the rules, identical to the one you tell here. 

An ''i've got the bigger boat so fuck-off" attitude.  In the WO S2H case it is more "we are WO, we own this race so fuck-off" unspoken, but sailors recognise it when they see it.  Everything MR has said and done since backs that up.

It was a blatant Rule 13  infringement so I suspect most of the time in the Room was in deciding the appropriate penalty.

You can suspect all you like. I suspect that you have the worst tall poopy issue of anyone. Obviously Ricko thought he was in the right- just as many of us have believed when we walked into the room and were proved wrong. But protesting a minor incerdent when you have been flogged on the water?  Real class would have been to walk up to Ricko, shake his hand and say well sailed but you owe me a beer. Or to not accept the LH trophy knowing that you didn't  take Line Honers. 

Anyway who really cares- they are all 'rich white cunts' after all.

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48 minutes ago, whoward said:

And no Jack I wasn't going to read 37 pages of postings just to check my opinion was in tune with the SA consensus. 

Don't argue with jack- he is the internets greatest sailor. And the head SAJ.

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2 hours ago, random said:

The sub-text to this, not spoken about, is that almost every RRS sailor has stories to tell about the big boat that refused to observe the rules, identical to the one you tell here. 

An ''i've got the bigger boat so fuck-off" attitude.  In the WO S2H case it is more "we are WO, we own this race so fuck-off" unspoken, but sailors recognise it when they see it.

The contrary may be shown.  In a coastal race with a reverse class start (fastest class starts last) none other than D. Conner in his big boat Stars & Stripes (since dismasted) comes barrelling down the course (spinnaker reach) and apparently would roll our 6knshitbox close to windward.  His bowman yells out "hold your course, we'll pass you to leeward."  Sure enough they crack off a bit and as the helm passes us Dennis says "Have a nice day!"

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Comanche hardly stacking there with sails to weather and to leeward... BJ is a little more egregious. We talked about this a few pages back. 

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1 hour ago, overlay said:

 

So you let the cheaters cheat and everyone else in the race can get fucked. You must be so proud.;)

And you teach sailing and moonlight as a highly paid expert witness for all things marine? :D:D

At least I don't use emojis to laugh at my own ...err...brilliance. Now try and reply without using them or that other teenage girl speak 'lol'. Good luck. 

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In that bottom picture, I have to think WO would be a bit faster with a narrower a-spin, given the narrow sheeting base. Over the years, I've found that awa on beam efficiency is faster than maximum area. It was true in IOR boats and in planing boats.

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1 hour ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said:

 Rather, I find it most surprising that the brain trust on Wild Oats was so convinced of their innocence at the time to not do turns. Did nobody on that boat think "hey we may have fucked up, lets burn 5 minutes and absolve ourselves of a potential catastrophic result in the protest room"?

I suspect that the ones who thought they should do the turns either didn't speak up or was ignored. As a team they should really debrief this and figure out how to open up their communication. I don't know if they actually are a team or just a bunch of people gathered for this race, though. But it's a team sport and even though the skipper and tactician have the responsibility of where they go, it's plain stupid to not include the whole team. Everybody on board is an experienced sailor and might have good input. 

I think there's 2 possible states of minds in the WO crew after this: 

"I fucking told you", or

"Next time I won't be afraid to say something"

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