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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
dachopper

Sydney to Hobart 2017

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Leaving aside the legalities, how long would/does it take to actually complete a 720 and get back up to speed in a canting maxi?

It must be a serious exercise in logistics.

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19 minutes ago, greasy al said:

Leaving aside the legalities, how long would/does it take to actually complete a 720 and get back up to speed in a canting maxi?

It must be a serious exercise in logistics.

 

11 minutes ago, xsailmakerSYD said:

10 mins max.....   just center the keel and put a team on the runners !   oh... cancel that about the runners... just press the button for the winch.

Any takers on 4 ~ 4.5 minutes in conditions that were in play at the time  ?   From time of altercation between WO and C,  WO was 5 minutes from next mark, C was 6 minutes.

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i'm still very impressed with how much deeper WO was able to sail than C . the mods really paid off. if wind angle was just a wee bit different C would have been long gone. WO is definitely the best all arounder .

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Could WOXI do the turns quicker than CQS & its massive horizontal foil? It takes CQS a full minute to do one 360 in less breeze. They furled the heady, main centred, both runners on. 

Say 10 mins from starting & finishing the procedure, including say 1-2 mins at a dead stop & the rest at reduced speed getting setup up & time winding back up? 

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5 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

Could WOXI do the turns quicker than CQS & its massive horizontal foil? It takes CQS a full minute to do one 360 in less breeze. They furled the heady, main centred, both runners on. 

Say 10 mins from starting & finishing the procedure, including say 1-2 mins at a dead stop & the rest at reduced speed getting setup up & time winding back up? 

Throwing around an IACC yacht ( at 25,000 kg + crew) would be a reference - the winged appendages (on IACC yacht) would help by approx 15 / 20 seconds per tack over WO appendage geometry ~ can't see more than 4 to 4.5 minutes as mentioned.

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I recall Richo saying you have to admit and learn from your mistakes, citing his experience jumping  off OneAustralia when it snapped in half and went to the bottom. 

Pity he didn't push that rewind button before making his post hearing comments.

OneAustralia+1995.jpg

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10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Why? That is <1 second (@ 9k) short of a collision so accuracy of a decision on the tack being completed would be good < 1/2 second either way? 

An AC style on course umpire with eyes and data to burn would be struggling to attain that accuracy, let alone a jury. 

WOXI cooked their own goose with that 4/5 m and clear claim. The video and data evidence then buried them.

I was replying to armchairadmiral who thought that some juries make bad decissions and appealing should have no fee (there is no fee around here). So if a "bad jury" made a decission of no penalty, but stated there was 4-5 m between the boats an appeal could lead to a penalty by making a different conlusion from the same facts.

9 knots is 4.6 m/s so C would have advanced that 4-5 m in one second. But WO was moving too. Maybe 5-6 knots after the tack and accelerating? So the speed difference was perhaps 3-4 knots and thus 2-3 seconds to collision. How much is enough time for avoiding?

But the facts found state they were already on collision course before the tack. That must mean tacking right in front left no space at all when the tack was completed. So IJ didn't seem to agree with the 4-5 m.

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6 hours ago, Joakim said:
17 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Why? That is <1 second (@ 9k) short of a collision so accuracy of a decision on the tack being completed would be good < 1/2 second either way? 

An AC style on course umpire with eyes and data to burn would be struggling to attain that accuracy, let alone a jury. 

WOXI cooked their own goose with that 4/5 m and clear claim. The video and data evidence then buried them.

 

9 knots is 4.6 m/s so C would have advanced that 4-5 m in one second. But WO was moving too. Maybe 5-6 knots after the tack and accelerating? So the speed difference was perhaps 3-4 knots and thus 2-3 seconds to collision. How much is enough time for avoiding?

There are two problems with your calculation.

Firstly it was WOXI's stated 4/5m clearance at the time they believed they had completed the tack and were clear with rights. There is no addition to that by what ever speed WOXI had at the time. It is a snapshot in time, not a movie.

Two if they had in their own words at that pointbcompleted their tack, then they would hardly be doing 5/6 knots, however it was there would be no addition to that as explained above.

The evidence is in the attached photo. Look where C bowsprit is and that is after C had luffed up to both avoid a collision and scrub off speed. Or in the space of 4/5 metres / 1 second the entire length of a 100' boat suddenly leapt sideways?

If they hadn't avoided, and before WOXI completed its tack, Richo would be wearing an interesting piece of carbon arse jewelry today.

unnamed (12).jpg

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24 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

There are two problems with your calculation.

Firstly it was WOXI's stated 4/5m clearance at the time they believed they had completed the tack and were clear with rights. There is no addition to that by what ever speed WOXI had at the time. It is a snapshot in time, not a movie.

Two if they had in their own words at that pointbcompleted their tack, then they would hardly be doing 5/6 knots, however it was there would be no addition to that as explained above.

The evidence is in the attached photo. Look where C bowsprit is and that is after C had luffed up to both avoid a collision and scrub off speed. Or in the space of 4/5 metres / 1 second the entire length of a 100' boat suddenly leapt sideways?

If they hadn't avoided, and before WOXI completed its tack, Richo would be wearing an interesting piece of carbon arse jewelry today.

unnamed (12).jpg

I'm not saying there was 4-5 m, that's just what Richo said. At what point is that picture? How many seconds after WO finished their tack? I haven't seen a video from which you could really see both the distance and the time of tack finished.

I would be generally interested what is the required time or space between the boats for not getting a penalty from rule 13 or 15 in those conditions. What would your estimation be for the speed of WO after tacking?

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4 minutes ago, Joakim said:

I'm not saying there was 4-5 m, that's just what Richo said. At what point is that picture?

Read what I said and it also wasn't that. I'm out.

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WOXI fan boys are still in denial - very boring.

Says much about the human condition!

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1 hour ago, Joakim said:

I'm not saying there was 4-5 m, that's just what Richo said. At what point is that picture? How many seconds after WO finished their tack? I haven't seen a video from which you could really see both the distance and the time of tack finished.

I would be generally interested what is the required time or space between the boats for not getting a penalty from rule 13 or 15 in those conditions. What would your estimation be for the speed of WO after tacking?

The picture is a screenshot from the onboard video by the media person. I think C is already altering course at that point, and going faster than WO.  Can't be determined if WO has already completed their tack, though.

Consider, that WO has just panic-tacked directly in front of C,  the sprit extends several feet in front of bow, Spithill is 80+ feet astern of bow, and his main reference point is his bowman signaling to him. Too close, IMO.

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1 hour ago, rogerfal said:

WOXI fan boys are still in denial - very boring.

Says much about the human condition!

If you are refering to me, I'm quite far from a WOXI fan boy. I'm just interested in the rules. I'm sure IJ made the correct decission and think one hour was a really small penalty for breaking rule 13.

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15 minutes ago, Joakim said:

If you are refering to me, I'm quite far from a WOXI fan boy. I'm just interested in the rules. I'm sure IJ made the correct decission and think one hour was a really small penalty for breaking rule 13.

Fair play.

Apols - it just amazes me the amount of people who have posted saying the jury got it wrong and the bleating about the penalty.

Speaking broadly about what keeping clear is and how much room is enough room is very condition and boat type dependent as I'm sure you appreciate.

Cheers

 

 

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On 12/27/2017 at 8:43 PM, Yo....v said:

 

The lard arse boggs down in the light - Oats lakes Line but  gets pinged in the protest

 

Thats a fact Jack

 

Yo.

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On 1/2/2018 at 12:58 PM, bigrpowr said:

i'm still very impressed with how much deeper WO was able to sail than C . the mods really paid off. if wind angle was just a wee bit different C would have been long gone. WO is definitely the best all arounder .

Perhaps but without a pilot it doesn't matter does it..!

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On 12/28/2017 at 10:01 PM, robberzdog said:

And how far do you think they would have had to sail to get clear of all other boats, plus the spectator fleet and get it all done before they got to Z buoy when the alternative penalty option ran out? New Zealand?

It is crazy and dangerous to expect a supermaxi to be doing consecutive 720 turns in a situation like that. It is mayhem on the water at a Sydney Hobart start.  Comanche would have lost all of 20 secs from their luff - a 15 minute time penalty is reasonable.

Utter bollox. There was loads of space, and there is nothing about not being able to take it after the Z buoy. The penalty is where the incident took place. Sail away do you turns. If not you are a cheater and you accept the penalty. 

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On 29/12/2017 at 6:01 AM, mad said:

That’s painful just to watch. 

I find the Clipper boats to be exactly that.

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Here's a newly question, why are multis banned from this event, especially since they are cheaper(?) to use if you compare say a MOD70 with a similar sized Maxi. Can someone enlighten me/correct me please?

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Organising club doesn't want the risk. They enforce strict rules about monohull stability. 

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17 hours ago, SCANAS said:

^ Musics a bit much but otherwise great video. 

Respectfully - the music is better than many of the other options! A la Bow Caddy Productions...

This track is from Deep Blue Orchestra, a QLD based (mainly strings) group. I saw them play live years ago at a festival, and they actually f*cking ROCKED. 5,000 people moshing to violins wasn't something I'd ever expected to see in this lifetime.

 

Their cover of the Stones "Paint it Black" is a belting track.

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2 minutes ago, Jason AUS said:

Respectfully - the music is better than many of the other options! A la Bow Caddy Productions...

This track is from Deep Blue Orchestra, a QLD based (mainly strings) group. I saw them play live years ago at a festival, and they actually f*cking ROCKED. 5,000 people moshing to violins wasn't something I'd ever expected to see in this lifetime.

 

Their cover of the Stones "Paint it Black" is a belting track.

On that basis, A bit googling is needed. I’m trying to imagine the scene at the festival!

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On 1/3/2018 at 4:22 AM, RKoch said:

The picture is a screenshot from the onboard video by the media person. I think C is already altering course at that point, and going faster than WO.  Can't be determined if WO has already completed their tack, though.

Consider, that WO has just panic-tacked directly in front of C,  the sprit extends several feet in front of bow, Spithill is 80+ feet astern of bow, and his main reference point is his bowman signaling to him. Too close, IMO.

Stan Honey supplied the actual track to the IJ from the $200,000 wiz bang compass dohicky that gives EXACT course / track every 0.9 second. This proved that Spitty did not hunt WO and only altered course to starboard to avoid a collision... 

On 1/5/2018 at 1:14 AM, randomlurker said:

Utter bollox. There was loads of space, and there is nothing about not being able to take it after the Z buoy. The penalty is where the incident took place. Sail away do you turns. If not you are a cheater and you accept the penalty. 

Agree.... they had a shit ton of room... ridiculous comment...

12 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

Here's a newly question, why are multis banned from this event, especially since they are cheaper(?) to use if you compare say a MOD70 with a similar sized Maxi. Can someone enlighten me/correct me please?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........................................................................................... Great question... haven't heard that asked before....... and multis are cheaper.... damn ... you're killing me.

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11 hours ago, SCANAS said:

If Tohatsu or the Duck manufacturer don't give him a deal they're mad! 

They gave him a deal on two motors.... Gemini (boats) gave him a boat for cost.  He spent a lot of his own money.

He is actually one of my friends.... go easy on me fellows

 

13 minutes ago, Jason AUS said:

Respectfully - the music is better than many of the other options! A la Bow Caddy Productions...

This track is from Deep Blue Orchestra, a QLD based (mainly strings) group. I saw them play live years ago at a festival, and they actually f*cking ROCKED. 5,000 people moshing to violins wasn't something I'd ever expected to see in this lifetime.

 

Their cover of the Stones "Paint it Black" is a belting track.

HAHAHA   you are just a big surprise package some times Jas

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20 minutes ago, mad said:

On that basis, A bit googling is needed. I’m trying to imagine the scene at the festival!

Start with this - it's their cover of Misrilou from Pulp Fiction.

 

 

 

The festival was back in 2011, and it would be fair to say that there were some mind bending (and not necessarily legal) substances on offer.

 

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1 hour ago, SCANAS said:

Full credit to him PIL my only question was why a 2 stroke! 

I don't have a sensible answer for this other than we all use the 2 stroke Tohatsu or Yamaha 3 cylinder 50hp for power / weight and the fact that when we roll our boats (Usually surf racing) we can clear the water from cylinders / carbies quickly and restart... Nathan practiced this many times before he left and got it down to 15 minutes ( right the boat with roll over straps) and get the motor going.  It's also why he went with the premixed motor as opposed to the oil injected model.

 

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23 minutes ago, PIL007 said:

I don't have a sensible answer for this other than we all use the 2 stroke Tohatsu or Yamaha 3 cylinder 50hp for power / weight and the fact that when we roll our boats (Usually surf racing) we can clear the water from cylinders / carbies quickly and restart... Nathan practiced this many times before he left and got it down to 15 minutes ( right the boat with roll over straps) and get the motor going.  It's also why he went with the premixed motor as opposed to the oil injected model.

 

good to hear there was some serious thought put into it from an insider. It certainly looked like he geared up properly from that vid., but all you get from the media soundbites is 'spur of the moment' bullshit.

 

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14 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

good to hear there was some serious thought put into it from an insider. It certainly looked like he geared up properly from that vid., but all you get from the media soundbites is 'spur of the moment' bullshit.

 

He was fully prepared 

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34 minutes ago, PIL007 said:

He was fully prepared 

3 years he said. 

(I) Hadn't thought of capsize recovery. 

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19 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

3 years he said. 

(I) Hadn't thought of capsize recovery. 

Yep... roll the boat back over end for end .... engine needs bottom carbie drained (they all drain to the bottom)  Plugs out, pull pull pull pull and more to get rid of salt water that got sucked through the carbie... squirt "Start ya bastard" and fuel down the plug holes and down carbie throat, put 2 x plugs back in and get it to fire then put the last plug in and half electrocute yourself with trying to put the last plug lead on... Done... rev the fuck out of it for 30 mins and it's like a bought one

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4 hours ago, Jason AUS said:

Respectfully

This is not the place for this.

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1 hour ago, Jason AUS said:

Get f*cked.

Better?

 

Or do I need to post pictures of bewbs?

Better. The level of polite manners was unacceptable....Cunt

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9 hours ago, jackolantern said:

Envy scooters video is great.

 

I seem to recall there being some great video from that boat as Ichi Ban during last year's hobart but I can't find it. Can anyone help? 

Can't find the Ichi ones but here's some Balance stuff..

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Next Level said:

Here’s the ichi ban footage from 16.

 

Calling Jack Sparrow..... good footage and Sophie..... 

Don't make a mess Jack

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"He is the prominent businessman whose roaring success in the steel and livestock industries gifted him opportunities like racing in the Sydney to Hobart"

Roaring success in the drug trade allowing him to launder the money into his other businesses to make them look successful - is what they should of said. 

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5 hours ago, Next Level said:

Raced on Wot Eva according to his college website that proudly posted a photo of him before removing the page :) 

http://rolexsydneyhobart.com/the-yachts/2017/pyr-arnoldcowot-eva/

 

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On 1/27/2018 at 1:26 PM, duncan (the other one) said:

that grey indian sure does plow a furrow

 

that aint nothing!! 

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There was a vid earlier showing Comanche and WOXI smoking downwind, in roughly the same area.  Comanche had fuckloads of water hosing the crew - quite bow down, whilst Oats was relatively dry - they were both doing around 30 from memory

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Interesting comments from Mark Richards in the CYCA mag...

"...we were just too close. We were in Comanche's water and had infringed them. Looking back, the obvious thing would have been to duck and take their transom or tack earlier, but unfortunately that was not the case."

"...did discuss doing a 720-degree penalty turn... But as a team, in the heat of the battle, we made the wrong decision and continued to race without doing a penalty."

"The whole situation was very unfortunate, but we brought it on ourselves. We have the utmost respect for the jury's decision. The moral to this story is: do your penalty turns if you are n doubt of an infringement, and never think that your mates won't protest you."

""Hopefully many other sailors will be better informed by this experience. I know I am."

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^

12 minutes ago, angles said:

"The whole situation was very unfortunate, but we brought it on ourselves. We have the utmost respect for the jury's decision. The moral to this story is: do your penalty turns if you are n doubt of an infringement, and never think that your mates won't protest you."

just in case anyone missed it :P

 

 

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1 hour ago, angles said:

" and never think that your mates won't protest you."

 

Did he actually say that...?  Are you fucking serious.... What a ridiculous thing to say.   

I applaud the rest of his comments which I feel should have been said earlier  ..... but to throw that in at end destroys any new found respect I had for him.....

It was the most basic port / starboard infringement witnessed by all on live TV. Do your turns and move on or be DSQ'd (Which I personally feel should be the punishment but I respect the IJ)

 

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On 30/01/2018 at 4:22 AM, Ricky Bobby said:

that aint nothing!! 

Have you seen worse from the boat? Genuinely curious, that doesn’t look quite right for a new boat. 

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1 minute ago, PIL007 said:

Did he actually say that...?  Are you fucking serious.... What a ridiculous thing to say.

 

Yep, he did.

I agree that it spoiled the rest of what he said. A bit of blame proportioning - I could of gotten away with it if my mates hadn't been so picky.

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2 hours ago, angles said:

Interesting comments from Mark Richards in the CYCA mag...

"...we were just too close. We were in Comanche's water and had infringed them. Looking back, the obvious thing would have been to duck and take their transom or tack earlier, but unfortunately that was not the case."

"...did discuss doing a 720-degree penalty turn... But as a team, in the heat of the battle, we made the wrong decision and continued to race without doing a penalty."

"The whole situation was very unfortunate, but we brought it on ourselves. We have the utmost respect for the jury's decision. The moral to this story is: do your penalty turns if you are n doubt of an infringement, and never think that your mates won't protest you."

""Hopefully many other sailors will be better informed by this experience. I know I am."

WTF, he’s just shot his other foot off with that. 

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On 1/29/2018 at 8:30 PM, duncan (the other one) said:

I actually wonder if that's what part of the (Botin ?) wide-arse fuckuppery was about a couple of years back..

 

check out 2:59, 4:20, 4:31 and 4:39 of that vid.  Talk about snout in the trough.

3

Carkeek.

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1 hour ago, PIL007 said:

Did he actually say that...?  Are you fucking serious.... What a ridiculous thing to say.   

I applaud the rest of his comments which I feel should have been said earlier  ..... but to throw that in at end destroys any new found respect I had for him.....

It was the most basic port / starboard infringement witnessed by all on live TV. Do your turns and move on or be DSQ'd (Which I personally feel should be the punishment but I respect the IJ)

 

One of the more suprising things I've heard from a protest defendant...

 

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50 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

One of the more suprising things I've heard from a protest defendant...

 

Say anything to keep the job I suppose!

Hope the CYCA go back to the old rule of no alternative penalties before the sea mark so everyone pulls their heads in!

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Just now, duncan (the other one) said:

yeh - Indian's a Carkeek - but wasn't it Botin who had to cut and shut a bunch of half-completed designs?  

Could be, I know RP had to with a couple bigger boats( Loki, old Belle Mente)

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1 hour ago, duncan (the other one) said:

yeh - Indian's a Carkeek - but wasn't it Botin who had to cut and shut a bunch of half-completed designs?  

Nah, Riechel-Pugh.  Loki, Limit, Shockwave, Bella Mente, Moneypenny and a few more IIRC.  Around 2005-6

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7 hours ago, mad said:

WTF, he’s just shot his other foot off with that. 

That's got to be messy considering his foot is firmly in his mouth

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3 hours ago, Last Post said:

That's got to be messy considering his foot is firmly in his mouth

Its fine, he's at the bottom of the hole he dug for himself

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18 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

Yeah Richo's probably totalled gutted you all feel that way about him. 

Richo doesn't give a fuck how anybody feels about him, way too big an ego for that.

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On 30/01/2018 at 9:00 PM, Dark Cloud said:

There was a vid earlier showing Comanche and WOXI smoking downwind, in roughly the same area.  Comanche had fuckloads of water hosing the crew - quite bow down, whilst Oats was relatively dry - they were both doing around 30 from memory

In the end it was proven that Oats was actually faster in some of those running conditions and the Oats bow is no longer burying which means speed gains. Although the conditions were mostly dead running I was surprised Oats was able to stay with Comanche and actually gain at times. The Oats boys will be buoyant about this for future races. 

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31 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Although the conditions were mostly dead running I was surprised Oats was able to stay with Comanche and actually gain at times.

Not so much faster but could nearly match, match or even exceed Comanche in BS depending on breeze, all when going deeper. Look at the extra miles but with better BS/VMG Comanche had to sail to just get around the corner in front.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Not so much faster but could nearly match, match or even exceed Comanche in BS depending on breeze, all when going deeper. Look at the extra miles but with better BS/VMG Comanche had to sail to just get around the corner in front.

a la...

WOXI.png.fb83c0c6e10fdb28e0c63a9fdb3df6e8.png

comanche.png.b5c44f5980476aaed36ffb4f019a3c92.png

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