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Wooden boats thread

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19 minutes ago, bplipschitz said:

Squirl skins,  or maybe @DA-WOODY can get you some Raccoon pelts. . .

Plenty of harbour seals around here (to hunt under cover of darkness...), but these kinds of boats have been skinned with some type of Arctic seal species for thousands of years, so a sub-Arctic seal skin wouldn’t be authentic :-). To say nothing of a squirrel skin... 

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1 hour ago, Jammer Six said:

So when a lugger tacks, the boom and gaff stay stay on whatever side of the mast they were on?

That depends: the standing lug stays the same; the dipping lug gets moved round. 

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What Mr. Ed wrote.  According to Frank  van Zoest, who built those lovely little boats, the term "lugger" in Holland is a little more "generic" than the more precise term used in the UK and the USA.

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On 8/30/2018 at 1:22 PM, Bull City said:

If you're referring to the video I posted (#94), I admit that I didn't check the copyright.

This appears to be the original?

 

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On 8/30/2018 at 10:58 PM, Junkyard Dog said:

It hardly belongs in this august company, but here is my own small effort.

gallery_5423_647_397896.jpg

It is cool in its own way, the thread is not titled "posh wooden boats".

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My boat Horse Chicks

My girls like horses and chickens 

I call the boat that and the wife let’s me keep it!

338A4896-5B38-402F-872F-EDB8AB318179.jpeg

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What are you going to call the boats when they start to like boys?

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3 hours ago, IStream said:

What are you going to call the boats when they start to like boys?

Off Limits

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Thanks. A little more and it’s ready for some classic regattas.

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1949 St.Lawrence Cutter rig Sloop. Custom built ocean racer.

Commissioned for a prince for the Newport Bermuda race. He never raced and the boat went into cruising mode.

Now it’s stuck with me and going to start racing again.

 

 

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Sounds like you need a BB Crowningshield

You need to be about 4’ tall for below decks no matter which design.

Found this on a quick search. No matter the length, they’re all very similar, like Rhodes.

 

http://www.artisanboatworks.com/classic-designs/sailboats/crowninshield-20

9B5CF132-5DB1-43AE-963F-2C02B9D6F511.jpeg

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ohhhh....mmmyy!  Lotsa splinters, hope no one got hurt...

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Bad day for the A Cat Torch Saturday.

6BE60001-21D1-41E7-95C7-415DB1EA3AB3.jpeg

Somebody's glue didn't hold.

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I think it might have been a temporary lack of attention to a running backstay, but I’m away until tomorrow. I think the original mast was lost to a faulty jackstay fitting due to poor foundry work.

And the glue is good, the crew work ...

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I can go smaller: A model of a boat built in the 80's, based loosely on an Alden Malabar schooner.

Strip planked western red cedar over ply frames, remote control, and electric motor.

Still some minor finishing off to go.

Nice work on the tug, and timber plane: I'm pretty sure I would not trust by timber skills at 2,000 feet.

Agreed, more Dragons needed.

 

mooring photos 144.jpg

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28 minutes ago, deano said:

and some of the local couta boats typical to Port Phillip, Australia

24293.jpg

Those bowsprits are bowsed down pretty hard. Do they go straight once the canvas is drawing?

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1 hour ago, deano said:

and some of the local couta boats typical to Port Phillip, Australia

24293.jpg

Looks like the fronts are starting to fall off.

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straighten up when they see zero's :ph34r:

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no code 0's on these fellas.

Bowsprits are the best part, they stay curved to my knowledge, timber boat porn vintage style.

They evolved from needing to race back in with the catch, of couta obviously, to the markets.

The boats are still an active fleet for racing and pleasure, and have a good following.

26ft, over canvassed, an under ballasted when no catch, I'm sure they would be a handlfull.

good do with a longer boom....

http://www.coutaboat.com.au/ 

 

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^^ I love the absence of rails and lifelines. Any interior oics?

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5 minutes ago, Bull City said:

^^ I love the absence of rails and lifelines. Any interior oics?

same, sadly the lifelines and bow/stern rails are going to have to go back on next year.  I don't have any handy, I'll snap some interior shots tomorrow. 

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9 minutes ago, frozenhawaiian said:

same, sadly the lifelines and bow/stern rails are going to have to go back on next year.  I don't have any handy, I'll snap some interior shots tomorrow. 

Thanks, Frozen. I'll look forward to it.

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Possibly owned by a computer geek?

6314337_20170727085044509_1_XLARGE.jpg&w=924&h=693&t=1501174678000

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9 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Possibly owned by a computer geek?

 

I was thinking VIM as in "vim and vigor." (energy; enthusiasm: in his youth he was full of vim and vigor.)

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12 hours ago, frozenhawaiian said:

glimpse, my 1954 hinckley 36. love this little boat. 

37151908_10155773535742947_1157873077913124864_n.jpg

37530113_10155781514477947_7927299444070940672_n.jpg

Wow! I can’t believe how nice that is! 

I almost bought one but ended up with  the cutter instead. It’s only 5 years older than yours and looks almost as nice as

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14 hours ago, frozenhawaiian said:

glimpse, my 1954 hinckley 36. love this little boat. 

37151908_10155773535742947_1157873077913124864_n.jpg

37530113_10155781514477947_7927299444070940672_n.jpg

Hey, I think that was Joe Browns boat, my neighbor a few doors down. He passed away a few years ago. Very nice guy, we had some great talks. He would bristle at contemporary boat names like WET DREAM, etc. Old school, he preferred what he called, "True" boat names, hence I think his Hinckley 36 was named GLIMPSE, and that must be the one?

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Just finished steam-bending  (white box with red tape on it in background, and camp stove, is my homemade steam box), and installing seven new red oak ribs in my baidarka (Aleutian-style kayak) - replacing the ugly plastic ones (on ground to left) that the boatbuilder I bought the kayak frame from installed, thinking only of expediency...not the romance of wood !  :-)  (He also secured them in place with stainless screws.  I’ll lash them in, like the 31 other ribs.)  It’s all about keeping with the spirit of the boat.

(Sure, power tools were used for shaping the wood, and of course it won’t have a real animal skin hull (female sea lion skin, traditionally; males have too many bite holes, from fights, in their hides!) - but neither will it have any metal fasteners or glue.  Just seems right that way.)

E096C8CD-CE52-4F82-96D8-B7F87D0FE025.jpeg

D5C033D0-6438-4CFD-BF4F-804D8C84CF37.jpeg

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Good for you. I watch Lou Sauzedde's Tips from a Shipwright series and it breaks my hear to see him use exposed HDPE ribs in his boats. Not only is it incongruous when the entirety of the rest of the boat is beautiful wood but in 5 years the UV will have its way with the ribs and it'll be a huge PITA to change them out.

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

Good for you. I watch Lou Sauzedde's Tips from a Shipwright series and it breaks my hear to see him use exposed HDPE ribs in his boats. Not only is it incongruous when the entirety of the rest of the boat is beautiful wood but in 5 years the UV will have its way with the ribs and it'll be a huge PITA to change them out.

For sure, the old plastic replacement ribs were not good - when I very gently and slowly stretched/flattened them out to get an accurate measurement (for cutting each new piece of wooden rib stock: each is a slightly different length) one immediately broke!  Sure, wood breaks, but not if grain is good and it’s steam bent properly.  

Looking forward to a winter of paddling adventures!  I hope to have it skinned by end of this month, and will post pics.

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3 hours ago, IStream said:

Good for you. I watch Lou Sauzedde's Tips from a Shipwright series and it breaks my hear to see him use exposed HDPE ribs in his boats. Not only is it incongruous when the entirety of the rest of the boat is beautiful wood but in 5 years the UV will have its way with the ribs and it'll be a huge PITA to change them out.

Did he use it to create the illusion of whale bone ribs?

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39 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Did he use it to create the illusion of whale bone ribs?

He did create that illusion but only as a side effect. In his early videos he uses it in unexposed locations in boats being rebuilt or repaired, where the physical characteristics of the material are helpful and it's never exposed to UV. I think he just let his enthusiasm get the better of him.

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1 hour ago, Roam said:

The youtube channel 'My Classic Boat' is all about old wooden boats:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDzgEpfq5UCYJOaJYXWHbbQ

 

That channel also does lots of classic plastic boats.  Four of their last twelve videos are about plastic boats: Seamaster 23, Bowman 26, Twister 28, Fisher Freeward 25.

The Twister which they reviewed is a particularly fine one: 

 

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On 8/30/2018 at 1:57 PM, The Q said:

You want wood? how about 23 tons of it (no engine) hence the tender ready to give a push when needed. In the old days a quant pole was used..

tn_P1050624ed.jpg

The 120 year old Wherry, Albion, 65ft overall, she could carry 42 tons of freight..

Sailed by man and boy or man and wife, the mast is on a tabernacle, with a lead balance weight so she can go under bridges just over 6ft tall without stopping if you time it right...

Her home website...https://wherryalbion.com/

 

Another Wherry, for passengers this time, Hathor, (used to be owned by the Colmans, who owned the  mustard company) about to go through Potter Heigham Bridge, note man near bow with quant pole.

See the source image

Hathor has fabulous marquetry work on her interior panelling of Egyptian gods and an upright piano..

Great picture, that looks absolutely impossible from that angle. 

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5 hours ago, Slim said:

Looks like the gundalow boat in Portsmouth, NH. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundalow

 

Very similar,  there were a lot of Norfolk people who settled in America  in those days,  though looking at the dates the gundalow would be a descendant of the wherries predecessor  The Norfolk Keel. The last keels were built around 1800, they were a medieval development of Viking freight carriers. 

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Kettenburg was a wooden sailboat manufacturer out of San Diego - I think until the early 60's? Beautiful boats. Never had the cajones to get one, but you'll see their boats for sale and at sail up and down California.

http://www.mykettenburg.com/

image.png.5d27f8632c5530d607b10febfc72b6ec.png

image.png.daf9709931506e8b481b0700d817743d.png

 

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I don't care what anyone says about the IOR - it made gorgeous, racy looking boats

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23 hours ago, Tanton Y_M said:

My last wooden One Tonner design. A fun boat and now for sale.

Belly UP.jpg

Where for sale?

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Has been fitted with real accommodation. Far cry from the original Spartan interior.

784pic1.jpg

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On 10/8/2018 at 9:52 PM, SloopJonB said:

I don't care what anyone says about the IOR - it made gorgeous, racy looking boats

I think you need a new optician, Sloop :) 

YMT has designed many lovely boats, but I can't put that one of the list :( 

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Sorry, 2 legs, I grew up perving over boats like that, and to me it's a good look. While it's true that all rules distort, IOR's really whacky boats are a minority: one of the great pleasures of looking at boats is the infinite variety in treatments, especially of backsides.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Ed said:

Sorry, 2 legs, I grew up perving over boats like that, and to me it's a good look. While it's true that all rules distort, IOR's really whacky boats are a minority: one of the great pleasures of looking at boats is the infinite variety in treatments, especially of backsides.

1

Interesting.  We are probably similar vintage, but I grew up shaking my head at IOR shapes.  I'd look at dinghy hulls and at J/24s and First Class 8s and so on, and then back at the IOR boats and ask in despair "why would you do that"?

The good thing about IOR boats was that they kept a lot of crew busy, having fun trying to make the mad beasts go.   But I can still can't see the fun in spending lottsa money to go slowly.   If you wanna do wacky races, it can be done on the cheap.

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When IOR came in they weren't slow - a lot of people seem to have forgotten that. There was a huge performance improvement with the advent of IOR - probably close to 10 degrees of pointing angle just for one.

Compare them to what went before them, not what came after. Sail a Peterson Ganbare against a Nicholson 35 and tell me about slow boats.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

When IOR came in they weren't slow - a lot of people seem to have forgotten that. There was a huge performance improvement with the advent of IOR - probably close to 10 degrees of pointing angle just for one.

Compare them to what went before them, not what came after. Sail a Peterson Ganbare against a Nicholson 35 and tell me about slow boats.

That's an apples-and-oranges comparison.  The Nich 35 is cruising boat with mucho furniture and a shower.  Ganbare is a stripped out racer.

Your chronology misses how the ULDB thing began in the early days of IOR.  The Moore 24, for example, began production in 1972, and flies away from quarter-pounders in most conditions.  Even a J/24 was a competitive half-tonner in some conditions.

I will agree that IOR boats tended to be good upwind.   Then they rounded the weather mark and ULDBs flew past them.  One-trick ponies

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28 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

 Then they rounded the weather mark and ULDBs flew past them.  One-trick ponies

Which one? ;)

O/K, forget the Nich 35 - pick your own 35' RORC or CCA type boat and do the comparison. The IOR boat will blow them away in all conditions.

And Ganbare itself may have been stripped out but many, many copies were full of furniture and gave away very little performance. We had a big fleet of them here and they still make great cruisers and can still win the odd race - nearly 1/2 century later. This is the inside of one of the locally built ones.

Show me a ULDB under 50' with that much comfort - even an SC 50 doesn't have it.

 

image.png.c7a3bf897dacbff94b7b394c6766e299.png

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7 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:
37 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

 Then they rounded the weather mark and ULDBs flew past them.  One-trick ponies

Which one? ;)

Just compare PHRF ratings for a Moore 24 and a 1972 IOR quarter-tonner, and you'll get your answer.  

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I'm a sucker for old wood boats.....especially the Universal M and Q Classes.  Here is the M Class Istalena on Long Island Sound in the late 20's....she was then brought to Milwaukee, WI in the mid-30's and then to Sheboygan, WI in the early 50's where she was renamed Sabre and converted to a ketch.  Her whereabouts are currently unknown.....

 

107330Istalena1929.jpg

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On 10/9/2018 at 11:00 PM, TwoLegged said:

That's an apples-and-oranges comparison.  The Nich 35 is cruising boat with mucho furniture and a shower.  Ganbare is a stripped out racer.

Your chronology misses how the ULDB thing began in the early days of IOR.  The Moore 24, for example, began production in 1972, and flies away from quarter-pounders in most conditions.  Even a J/24 was a competitive half-tonner in some conditions.

I will agree that IOR boats tended to be good upwind.   Then they rounded the weather mark and ULDBs flew past them.  One-trick ponies

Ahh Leggs, your taking something of an advantage here. After admonishing Sloop for comparing to a cruising yacht, you went and compared to boats that were designed to no rule, rather than Sloops comparison of boats from the previous prevailing ocean racing rule(s).  CCA and RORC type formed boats, and made them slower than contemporary non-rule conforming boats.  Sure a Moore 24 or J24 we’re faster than any quarter pounder around.  But until the advent of the J-24 OD class...where rule we’re you going to race them under?

Having gotten into big boat racing on a 44’ Luders Yawl, I can tell you that downwind in a breeze, it was a handful too.  And it rated about the same as a 3/4 tonner, which were in the 33-34 foot range. A 40 foot 2 tonner would run away from it. I graduated to IOR boats. Out pointed the yawls by a good margin, we’re faster by a good margin, and we’re just as much of a handful downwind when pressed. Sure seemed like progress to me.

I then went and bought my first boat - a J-24...

I think both types (CCA & IOR) were beautiful.  Something I can’t say about most modern race boats today...

 

i

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13 minutes ago, Crash said:

Ahh Leggs, your taking something of an advantage here. After admonishing Sloop for comparing to a cruising yacht, you went and compared to boats that were designed to no rule, rather than Sloops comparison of boats from the previous prevailing ocean racing rule(s).  CCA and RORC type formed boats, and made them slower than contemporary non-rule conforming boats.  Sure a Moore 24 or J24 we’re faster than any quarter pounder around.  But until the advent of the J-24 OD class...where rule we’re you going to race them under?

Well, I don't think I'm taking advantage. I don't generally like rule-driven boats, except for the box rules which usually produce decent boats.

When I was a youngster in 1970s Dublin, IOR was for offshore races.  Most inshore and coastal racing used the ECHO handicap system, which was performance-based ( like PHRF, I think).  So each boat basically raced against its own previous performance.  So you got good racing whatever the design's origin.

In a performance-handicap racing environment, type-forming boats were just silly.  I loved our J/24, one of the first 4 in Europe. We went way faster than the IOR slugs, with far less effort and much less handling grief and sail budget.  The one-design racing was fun when numbers improved, but we had lottsa fun on handicap too.

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I raced my J-24 in PHRF as there was no OD where I was at the time (Pensacola 87-88).  It was and still is a great PHRF boat IMHO.

is there a box rule that’s been as successful as IOR?

Not trying to talk you into liking the IOR...that’s the great thing about sailing...there’s more than enough room on the water for all our different perspectives.  

As an example, I like the idea of “Spirit of Tradition” but not what it’s evolved into...

Love to hear your take on where IRC has gone, where it’s going to end up...

Talking about a family trip to Ireland next summer. Happy to buy the first round and debate this in person  ;)

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34 minutes ago, Crash said:

I raced my J-24 in PHRF as there was no OD where I was at the time (Pensacola 87-88).  It was and still is a great PHRF boat IMHO.

is there a box rule that’s been as successful as IOR?

Not trying to talk you into liking the IOR...that’s the great thing about sailing...there’s more than enough room on the water for all our different perspectives.  

As an example, I like the idea of “Spirit of Tradition” but not what it’s evolved into...

Love to hear your take on where IRC has gone, where it’s going to end up...

Talking about a family trip to Ireland next summer. Happy to buy the first round and debate this in person  ;)

 

Box rules will always be niche.  That's the nature of them.  I think of them as a sort of mutant of the one-design principle, rather an alternative to a universal rule.

I just don't think that the attempts at universal rules have been as good for general fleets as performance handicapping.   The IOR etc had a place for the grand prix circuit, where  prior performance data wasn't available  on all the new craft ... but it had horrible effects on cruiser-racer fleets.  Its death meant that 1990s cruiser-racers were way nicer than their 1970s and 1980s equivalents.

I haven't raced for years, so I'm not familiar with IRC.  AIUI, the intention was for it to be non type-forming, but I hear that it tends to prefer heavier boats, which (if true) is a pity.  I like light boats.

Give me a shout if you do bring the family to Ireland.  i enjoy a good debate :) 

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10 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

1990s cruiser-racers were way nicer than their 1970s and 1980s equivalents.

Decades of design improvement produced nicer, faster boats.

Whooda thunkit?

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Decades of design improvement produced nicer, faster boats.

Whooda thunkit?

Don't worry, some clever person will come along with a new rating rule and fuck it all up again.

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Decades of design improvement produced nicer, faster boats.

Whooda thunkit?

201966438_StephenJonesTumblehome.jpg.f5f78cf54e21f379a5d1fd139287c652.jpgThat's one way of putting it.  Are you trying to tell me that the reason Stephen Jones designed Tumbehome 2 like the mold had melted was 'cos he didn't know any better?

I'd prefer to say that the decline of the type-forming rule finally allowed designers to use the current state of knowledge to concentrate on designing boats which sail fast and handle well.  As the non-rule designers like Bill Lee, the Johnstones etc had been doing for decades

 

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That's not a good example to use with me - I'm a well known critic of Jones distorted designs.

But you're right, I agree - everything about the IOR sucked.

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36 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Decades of design improvement produced nicer, faster boats.

Whooda thunkit?

I dunno, I’m about to test that theory. I’ve owned an 84 Santana 30/30 RC (MORC racer/cruiser) an 84 Bene First 30E (IOR Racer/Cruiser) and an 84 S2 9.1 (MORC racer/cruiser).  Now I’m Buying a 93 Bene First 310...so I’ll be able to report back on that soon.

I also had a 2003 J/109, so by the 2000’s the racer/cruiser had definitely improved! And by a significant margin :wub:

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Crash, what are your thoughts on MORC boats vs IOR boats?

I have never seen a MORC design in the flesh, but from the pics they look less distorted than IOR

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MORC boats overall far better (by the 1980’s) than their IOR  counterpoints, as long as you were ok staying below 30 ft.  The Bene First 30E rated 174, where as the S2 9.1 rated 135.  So almost 40 sec/mile faster.  The MORC boats are generally great all rounders, though they are not light boats.  The 9.1 was 7200lbs+.  An IOR boat could our point them, typically, but only by a degree or two.  Carried a lot more sail area, and like you said, less distortions...though there typically was some turn to the underwater profile at the stern. 

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My intoduction to MORC boats was the Creekmore 22 which I built the deck plug, dagger and rudders plugs, and interiors for the first couple of boats. A year or so later when I went to New Orleans to continue building boats I was given the task of refairing the bottom of a Gary Mull quarter tonner called EXPRESSO. Really different hull shapes but both did well under their respective rating rules. The IOR hull was much appealing to the eye but I don't know how they would have fare against each other boat for boat. Imagine my surprise when I just Googled ESPRESSO and found that she has been restored and has been racing not five miles from me lately. I would love to sail on her once more. I think that there may be a Creekmore 22 in the area and perhaps could put together a grudge match 'run what you brung' boat for boat showdown.

Espresso.jpg

 

This is the best photo I could find of the MORC Creekmore but this particular boat was modified after the early boats cleaned up under the MORC rule and won the championship. The original design had a daggerboard and dagger rudder with internal ballast that let it rate very favorable under the rule at the time. A year earlier the Linderberg 22 with the same daggers and internal ballast had won and it was clear that the keel boats were being left in the dust. I think we made 5 or 6 dagger C22's before the rule was changed to measure the boats with the daggers fully down which killed the rating. A few keel versions were built as you see in this photo and the stern was lengthened to 23' and a spade rudder added. That was the death of the design.

1980 Creekmore 7 meter located in Minnesota for sale

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54 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Crash, what are your thoughts on MORC boats vs IOR boats?

I have never seen a MORC design in the flesh, but from the pics they look less distorted than IOR

I grew up racing in MORC and then graduated to crewing on IOR boats.   The early MORC rule favored a moderate displacement, racer/cruiser designs.   Competitive boats had full interiors and as the "O" in MORC, could do longer distance offshore racing in "relative" comfort.   Late 70s early 80s, the displacements started to creep downward as boats were designed fully to the rule.   Like IOR boats, they got stripped out and interior space shrank.   Most MORC boat shapes were fair, as the rule did not have fixed measure locations along the hull to encourage bumps and hollows to gain an advantage.   Towards the end of MORC, silly amounts of money were poured into boats, which rendered the more dual purpose boats uncompetitive.

A lot more thought was put into IOR hull design to attempt to gain a rating advantage, without paying a performance penalty.  They would go upwind like a scalded dog, but turn the corner in a breeze, reaching and running becomes very picture worthy.  Boats to both rules generally would dig a big hole in the water in a breeze, but IOR boats would make a bigger hole.    It took a wave to make them break free and "plane" for a short period of time.   Most of my IOR experience was on boats bigger than a MORC maxi (30').

-Stumbling

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That's v interesting, Crash.

It sounds like a similar pattern to IOR: the grand prix end developing so far from dual use that it killed the whole game

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29 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

This is the best photo I could find of the MORC Creekmore

A refreshing absence of the IOR humpy-bumpiness, but still a pretty distorted shape. 

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