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Wooden boats thread

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36 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Decades of design improvement produced nicer, faster boats.

Whooda thunkit?

I dunno, I’m about to test that theory. I’ve owned an 84 Santana 30/30 RC (MORC racer/cruiser) an 84 Bene First 30E (IOR Racer/Cruiser) and an 84 S2 9.1 (MORC racer/cruiser).  Now I’m Buying a 93 Bene First 310...so I’ll be able to report back on that soon.

I also had a 2003 J/109, so by the 2000’s the racer/cruiser had definitely improved! And by a significant margin :wub:

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Crash, what are your thoughts on MORC boats vs IOR boats?

I have never seen a MORC design in the flesh, but from the pics they look less distorted than IOR

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MORC boats overall far better (by the 1980’s) than their IOR  counterpoints, as long as you were ok staying below 30 ft.  The Bene First 30E rated 174, where as the S2 9.1 rated 135.  So almost 40 sec/mile faster.  The MORC boats are generally great all rounders, though they are not light boats.  The 9.1 was 7200lbs+.  An IOR boat could our point them, typically, but only by a degree or two.  Carried a lot more sail area, and like you said, less distortions...though there typically was some turn to the underwater profile at the stern. 

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My intoduction to MORC boats was the Creekmore 22 which I built the deck plug, dagger and rudders plugs, and interiors for the first couple of boats. A year or so later when I went to New Orleans to continue building boats I was given the task of refairing the bottom of a Gary Mull quarter tonner called EXPRESSO. Really different hull shapes but both did well under their respective rating rules. The IOR hull was much appealing to the eye but I don't know how they would have fare against each other boat for boat. Imagine my surprise when I just Googled ESPRESSO and found that she has been restored and has been racing not five miles from me lately. I would love to sail on her once more. I think that there may be a Creekmore 22 in the area and perhaps could put together a grudge match 'run what you brung' boat for boat showdown.

Espresso.jpg

 

This is the best photo I could find of the MORC Creekmore but this particular boat was modified after the early boats cleaned up under the MORC rule and won the championship. The original design had a daggerboard and dagger rudder with internal ballast that let it rate very favorable under the rule at the time. A year earlier the Linderberg 22 with the same daggers and internal ballast had won and it was clear that the keel boats were being left in the dust. I think we made 5 or 6 dagger C22's before the rule was changed to measure the boats with the daggers fully down which killed the rating. A few keel versions were built as you see in this photo and the stern was lengthened to 23' and a spade rudder added. That was the death of the design.

1980 Creekmore 7 meter located in Minnesota for sale

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54 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Crash, what are your thoughts on MORC boats vs IOR boats?

I have never seen a MORC design in the flesh, but from the pics they look less distorted than IOR

I grew up racing in MORC and then graduated to crewing on IOR boats.   The early MORC rule favored a moderate displacement, racer/cruiser designs.   Competitive boats had full interiors and as the "O" in MORC, could do longer distance offshore racing in "relative" comfort.   Late 70s early 80s, the displacements started to creep downward as boats were designed fully to the rule.   Like IOR boats, they got stripped out and interior space shrank.   Most MORC boat shapes were fair, as the rule did not have fixed measure locations along the hull to encourage bumps and hollows to gain an advantage.   Towards the end of MORC, silly amounts of money were poured into boats, which rendered the more dual purpose boats uncompetitive.

A lot more thought was put into IOR hull design to attempt to gain a rating advantage, without paying a performance penalty.  They would go upwind like a scalded dog, but turn the corner in a breeze, reaching and running becomes very picture worthy.  Boats to both rules generally would dig a big hole in the water in a breeze, but IOR boats would make a bigger hole.    It took a wave to make them break free and "plane" for a short period of time.   Most of my IOR experience was on boats bigger than a MORC maxi (30').

-Stumbling

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That's v interesting, Crash.

It sounds like a similar pattern to IOR: the grand prix end developing so far from dual use that it killed the whole game

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29 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

This is the best photo I could find of the MORC Creekmore

A refreshing absence of the IOR humpy-bumpiness, but still a pretty distorted shape. 

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On October 9, 2018 at 8:00 PM, TwoLegged said:

That's an apples-and-oranges comparison.  The Nich 35 is cruising boat with mucho furniture and a shower.  Ganbare is a stripped out racer.

Your chronology misses how the ULDB thing began in the early days of IOR.  The Moore 24, for example, began production in 1972, and flies away from quarter-pounders in most conditions.  Even a J/24 was a competitive half-tonner in some conditions.

I will agree that IOR boats tended to be good upwind.   Then they rounded the weather mark and ULDBs flew past them.  One-trick ponies

I am lucky enough to sail on a Peterson 35. It still is a fun boat to drive, and I don't mind the interior comforts. I have also raced Moore 24's. Not so comfortable below but more fun to drive. Both have merits. Pick any boat you want, really!

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

That's v interesting, Crash.

It sounds like a similar pattern to IOR: the grand prix end developing so far from dual use that it killed the whole game

Yeah, when they stopped doing "ocean" races...or distance point to point races, and then folks started building custom MORC boats for round the buoys races...it killed off the whole thing in about 10 years, give or take.  It was too bad too.  Even the custom boats were and still are pretty good all-rounders.

But distance/ocean racing has changed too.  Back in the day, we actually used to cook real, hot meals offshore while racing.  For most races we ran actual watch schedules.  Now its all boil in the bag freeze dried stuff to keep it light, and push through with all hands on deck for the "shorter" races..ah well, the good old days...

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Yes, in my day they were cooking meals even on J/24s.  Plenty of the bigger boats even had oil paintings below.  And at the end of the race series they'd come ashore in evening dress.

I think it was that whole business of making sailing more extreme in all respects which killed off cruiser-racing generally.  I remember the horror when a half-tonner appeared with an interior consisting only of alloy pipe frame and canvas "berths"  ... and then before long, many of the races were being won by boats like that.  That is inevitably a smaller market than going offshore with some comforts.

 

 

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7 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Yes, in my day they were cooking meals even on J/24s.  Plenty of the bigger boats even had oil paintings below.  And at the end of the race series they'd come ashore in evening dress.

I think it was that whole business of making sailing more extreme in all respects which killed off cruiser-racing generally.  I remember the horror when a half-tonner appeared with an interior consisting only of alloy pipe frame and canvas "berths"  ... and then before long, many of the races were being won by boats like that.  That is inevitably a smaller market than going offshore with some comforts.

 

 

I have oil paintings in my old race horse and we still cook hot meals.  No death rolls yet with pasta boiling down the course.   ;)

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8 hours ago, Crash said:

Yeah, when they stopped doing "ocean" races...or distance point to point races, and then folks started building custom MORC boats for round the buoys races...it killed off the whole thing in about 10 years, give or take.  It was too bad too.  Even the custom boats were and still are pretty good all-rounders.

But distance/ocean racing has changed too.  Back in the day, we actually used to cook real, hot meals offshore while racing.  For most races we ran actual watch schedules.  Now its all boil in the bag freeze dried stuff to keep it light, and push through with all hands on deck for the "shorter" races..ah well, the good old days...

https://www.marionbermuda.com

I think Sail69 is on the organizing committee. 

 

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11 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

A refreshing absence of the IOR humpy-bumpiness, but still a pretty distorted shape. 

That photo of the Creekmore 23 foot on the trailer is not a fair judge for distortion since it had the odd extension on aft of the original transom. The boat as designed was extremely beamy for its length and to get rail meat out for stability. I always thought it looked like a pumpkin seed in proportions. No weird bumps or hollows to fool a rating/measuring rule as in IOR and a pretty clean run aft although that photo would lead you to think otherwise. The rule at the time the boat was designed and built measured max draft with the daggerboard fully raised, only about 15 inches which gave a low rating number despite the nearly 10' beam. To keep daggerboard boats from totally dominating the MORC they changed that to measuring with the daggerboard fully down (more like 6') and I think the boat had to be raced with the board pinned down. That was probably the result of an early race year one in Gulfport Miss when they quietly raised the board and rudder and led a whole string of J-24's over a sandbar and did a horizon job while watching at least 6 J's run aground with spinnakers up. That boat won the Nat Champs year one.

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16 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

That photo of the Creekmore 23 foot on the trailer is not a fair judge for distortion since it had the odd extension on aft of the original transom. The boat as designed was extremely beamy for its length and to get rail meat out for stability. I always thought it looked like a pumpkin seed in proportions. No weird bumps or hollows to fool a rating/measuring rule as in IOR and a pretty clean run aft although that photo would lead you to think otherwise. The rule at the time the boat was designed and built measured max draft with the daggerboard fully raised, only about 15 inches which gave a low rating number despite the nearly 10' beam. To keep daggerboard boats from totally dominating the MORC they changed that to measuring with the daggerboard fully down (more like 6') and I think the boat had to be raced with the board pinned down. That was probably the result of an early race year one in Gulfport Miss when they quietly raised the board and rudder and led a whole string of J-24's over a sandbar and did a horizon job while watching at least 6 J's run aground with spinnakers up. That boat won the Nat Champs year one.

I raced in the 70s on a Morgan 24, a nice racer/cruiser with a centerboard.   We would crank the board up off the wind.   One time, we were in a bit of a breeze on a spinnaker run around the southern end of MacDill AFB and had a Ericson 27 slowly inching up on our transom.   My father headed up a bit to ease into the grass flats off of the point.   Just as the Ericson was about to pass, we started hearing a loud slurping sound from the back of the boat and the Ericson then ran hard aground.   Two other boats behind that boat had to head up and dowse their spinnakers to avoid the fate of the Ericson.   The Ericson draws about 4 feet, the Morgan draws 2' 9" with the board up.   We were heeled a bit and moving at hull speed.   We probably crossed a spot that was less than 2 feet deep, as we could only see seagrass in our wake, but managed to scoot like a skim board over the shallows.

She was a great bay boat and raced very well to her MORC and later PHRF ratings.   Lots of wonderful memories!  Also taught me extreme patience.   Boats are a lot faster now than they were then.

- Stumbling

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I had a friend whose dad had that same Morgan 24. We used to have a blast on it and ended up lashing two wooden paddles (the aux) handle to handle and a bridle to tow it behind the boat with. You could jump in and grab the paddle/dive plane and do all sorts of dives, dolphin leaps, and barrel rolls while the boat sailed along towing you. It was a blast but this was on an inland man made lake and it is a wonder that we never got our heads stuck in the crotch of the many trees that they left standing when the dammed the lake. Could only go about 20 down before the pressure on our ears became unbearable but I'm sure that we could have reached the tops of some of those trees. Now I see all sorts of similar dive planes being marketed, I should have patented the idea way back then.

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28 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

I had a friend whose dad had that same Morgan 24. We used to have a blast on it and ended up lashing two wooden paddles (the aux) handle to handle and a bridle to tow it behind the boat with. You could jump in and grab the paddle/dive plane and do all sorts of dives, dolphin leaps, and barrel rolls while the boat sailed along towing you. It was a blast but this was on an inland man made lake and it is a wonder that we never got our heads stuck in the crotch of the many trees that they left standing when the dammed the lake. Could only go about 20 down before the pressure on our ears became unbearable but I'm sure that we could have reached the tops of some of those trees. Now I see all sorts of similar dive planes being marketed, I should have patented the idea way back then.

I did something similar with plumbing pipes, 2x4s and plywood back in the 70s.   A friend would tow it behind his fishing boat.   Once up between Sand Key and Belair Beach in Florida, I hit the tailpipe of a WWII rocket stuck in the sand with one of the planes.   I came spinning up to the surface like a spoon fishing lure!.   That area of the beach was vacant land in WWII and was used for target practice.  Ordinance is still being harvested from the beach and shallow areas even today.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/07/20/unexploded-bombs-dumped-off-american-coasts---peril--beachgoers/30415739/

http://www.saj.usace.army.mil/Missions/Military-Projects/Formerly-Used-Defense-Sites-FUDS/Pinellas-Air-to-Ground/

- Stumbling

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On 10/11/2018 at 7:39 AM, Willin' said:

Took a cruise down the Damariscotta River yesterday to get some oysters and saw these beauties waiting to be hauled at Riverside Boat Co.

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Took a cruise down the Damariscotta River yesterday to get some oysters and saw these beauties waiting to be hauled at Riverside Boat Co.

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What a beautiful day on the river. Today, not so much.

ETA, tried to delete the dead photo links. Only sorta kinda worked. Oh well.

 

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Skinning the kayak took, I suppose, longer than I thought - although I’ve never skinned a kayak before, so didn’t really know what to expect! (have sewed a very little bit).

Installing the cockpit coaming/ring, which floats —isn’t attached to the kayak’s frame— involves compressing it tightly on to the boat, pulling the the excess skin in the middle of th cockpit under the coaming, trimming it, clamping it to hold tension, and then sewing it on.

The requisite “down the inside of the hull” shot!  (looking forward).

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71E9759C-1D03-4719-95E1-17F271A321A9.jpeg

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