Spatial Ed

The Wall

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14 minutes ago, Dog said:

"Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen on Wednesday cited a large spike in border crossing numbers in March -- 200% over last year, including an 800% increase in unaccompanied children".

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/11/politics/dhs-secretary-kirstjen-nielsen-budget-hearing/index.html

They were stopped. Duh.

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8 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Why do you think Dems want everyone to come in?

I agree with you 100% on the need to immigration control. But our undocumented-immigrant problem is from people that came in the 90's and up to the mid-2000s over the southern border, but today is due to people coming on planes and overstaying visas.

 

Why fight the last war?

It’s hard to know that one- a while back, I posted a bunch of articles advocating open borders, mostly penned by Righties, and......... crickets.  And for what it’s worth, I read somewhere that 100’s of millions, world wide, are undocumented....

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8 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

They were stopped. Duh.

Yes those were the ones that were stopped...Duh

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21 minutes ago, Dog said:

If a border wall is imoral shouldn't we be demolishing the wall we have?

What self-respecting cocksucker can't spell immoral?

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Just now, Cal20sailor said:

What self-respecting cocksucker can't spell immoral?

So I missed an m...What self-respecting cocksucker would give a shit?

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So you're admitting that you suck dick?

But your self esteem is good with it.

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

So you're admitting that you suck dick?

But your self esteem is good with it.

Put me back on ignore.

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

Put me back on ignore.

Why would he do that. The only clueless shitposter that provides what you do is Happy Jack... and, having outed himself, he is overdue for a meltdown and new identity. 

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Actually, I've had the Mutt on ignore for a long time.

His dribbling still seeps through sometimes - people quoting him and that strange glitch that drops the ignore function if you and he post at the same time.

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Dog's really going to have to get his skates on if he wants to stay one step ahead of Trump as king bullshitter. That word salad trying to justify his foreshadowed capitulation as a win was horrendous.

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Actually, I've had the Mutt on ignore for a long time.

His dribbling still seeps through sometimes - people quoting him and that strange glitch that drops the ignore function if you and he post at the same time.

You can't ignore me....you're my bitch.

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On 1/3/2019 at 4:30 AM, Shootist Jeff said:

I asked @Gouvernail already when he posted this same meme and he never bothered to answer so maybe you can help me out....  what "war" are they escaping??

https://www.cfr.org/interactives/global-conflict-tracker?cid=ppc-Google-grant-conflict_tracker-031116&gclid=CjwKCAjwmK3OBRBKEiwAOL6t1DJRFaCvtv-x8CGrwEy5oW4bGwcFTHhoGTN5O9KdfFRrfSoWyGEy6hoCQjwQAvD_BwE#!/conflict/criminal-violence-in-mexico

 

 

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13 hours ago, Dog said:

"Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen on Wednesday cited a large spike in border crossing numbers in March -- 200% over last year, including an 800% increase in unaccompanied children".

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/11/politics/dhs-secretary-kirstjen-nielsen-budget-hearing/index.html

Would that be the same Kirstjen Neilsen who denies TSA workers are calling out sick at an unusually high level during the shutdown, after a DHS spokesperson confirmed that was actually occurring?

Pardon me if I scoff at whatever she says. 

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6 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Would that be the same Kirstjen Neilsen who denies TSA workers are calling out sick at an unusually high level during the shutdown, after a DHS spokesperson confirmed that was actually occurring?

Pardon me if I scoff at whatever she says. 

She does have a credibility problem...

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mexican-word-of-the-day-july-you-say-wer

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10 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

 

THANKS, BD!!

 

Jan. 4, 2019 / 4:13 PM EST
By Julia Ainsley

WASHINGTON — White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders said Friday that Customs and Border Protection picked up nearly 4,000 known or suspected terrorists last year "that came across our southern border."

But in fact, the figure she seems to be citing is based on 2017 data, not 2018, and refers to stops made by Department of Homeland Security across the globe, mainly at airports.

In fiscal 2017, the latest year for which data is available, according to agency data and the White House's own briefing sheet, the Department of Homeland Security prevented nearly 4,000 known or suspected terrorists from "traveling to or entering the United States."

According to Justice Department public records and two former counterterrorism officials, no immigrant has been arrested at the southwest border on terrorism charges in recent years.

The White House did not respond to a request for comment about Sanders' statement.

Ahead of President Donald Trump's meeting Friday afternoon with Congressional leaders to negotiate the end of the government shutdown, the White House issued briefing materials that stated "3,775 known or suspected terrorists [were] prevented from traveling or entering the U.S. by DHS" in fiscal year 2017. Nowhere did the briefing materials state the known or suspected terrorists were stopped at the southern border.

Ned Price, who served on President Barack Obama's National Security Council, said many of those 3,775 were stopped simply because their name matches that of someone on a terrorist watch list, which have grown in recent years, and not because they pose a threat."So-called terrorist watchlists are an important tool in our national security arsenal, but they are far from fool-proof in large part because of their sheer size. The number of people on such lists ballooned in the years after 9/11, with some reports indicating that more than one million names had been associated with suspected terrorist activity. That's why false-positives, including in the case of crossings at our southern border, are commonplace. Even the late Ted Kennedy was registered on one such list when attempting to fly, presumably because of the commonality of his name," Price said.

Nick Rasmussen, the former director of the National Counterterrorism Center from December 2014 through December 2017 said, "During my tenure, the threat of terrorists trying to infiltrate the United States across our southern border was much more of a theoretical vulnerability than an actual one. It simply isn’t the case that terrorist groups like ISIS and al Qaeda see the southern border as the optimal the way to get would-be terrorists into the country."

DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen said at a press conference at the White House Friday afternoon that more than 3,000 immigrants have been stopped at the southwest border, over an unspecified period, because they are special interest aliens. DHS classifies nearly all immigrants crossing the border who is a national of a country outside of the Western Hemisphere as a Special Interest Alien, according to DHS reports.

A spokeswoman for the National Counterterrorism Center did not respond to a request for comment.

Julia Ainsley

Julia Ainsley is a national security reporter for NBC News.

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29 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

THANKS, BD!!

 

Jan. 4, 2019 / 4:13 PM EST
By Julia Ainsley

WASHINGTON — White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders said Friday that Customs and Border Protection picked up nearly 4,000 known or suspected terrorists last year "that came across our southern border."

But in fact, the figure she seems to be citing is based on 2017 data, not 2018, and refers to stops made by Department of Homeland Security across the globe, mainly at airports.

In fiscal 2017, the latest year for which data is available, according to agency data and the White House's own briefing sheet, the Department of Homeland Security prevented nearly 4,000 known or suspected terrorists from "traveling to or entering the United States."

According to Justice Department public records and two former counterterrorism officials, no immigrant has been arrested at the southwest border on terrorism charges in recent years.

The White House did not respond to a request for comment about Sanders' statement.

Ahead of President Donald Trump's meeting Friday afternoon with Congressional leaders to negotiate the end of the government shutdown, the White House issued briefing materials that stated "3,775 known or suspected terrorists [were] prevented from traveling or entering the U.S. by DHS" in fiscal year 2017. Nowhere did the briefing materials state the known or suspected terrorists were stopped at the southern border.

Ned Price, who served on President Barack Obama's National Security Council, said many of those 3,775 were stopped simply because their name matches that of someone on a terrorist watch list, which have grown in recent years, and not because they pose a threat."So-called terrorist watchlists are an important tool in our national security arsenal, but they are far from fool-proof in large part because of their sheer size. The number of people on such lists ballooned in the years after 9/11, with some reports indicating that more than one million names had been associated with suspected terrorist activity. That's why false-positives, including in the case of crossings at our southern border, are commonplace. Even the late Ted Kennedy was registered on one such list when attempting to fly, presumably because of the commonality of his name," Price said.

Nick Rasmussen, the former director of the National Counterterrorism Center from December 2014 through December 2017 said, "During my tenure, the threat of terrorists trying to infiltrate the United States across our southern border was much more of a theoretical vulnerability than an actual one. It simply isn’t the case that terrorist groups like ISIS and al Qaeda see the southern border as the optimal the way to get would-be terrorists into the country."

DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen said at a press conference at the White House Friday afternoon that more than 3,000 immigrants have been stopped at the southwest border, over an unspecified period, because they are special interest aliens. DHS classifies nearly all immigrants crossing the border who is a national of a country outside of the Western Hemisphere as a Special Interest Alien, according to DHS reports.

A spokeswoman for the National Counterterrorism Center did not respond to a request for comment.

Julia Ainsley

Julia Ainsley is a national security reporter for NBC News.

Walls around all airports! Dog is scared!

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

mexican-word-of-the-day-july-you-say-wer

i didn;t know Mexican was a language

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with body language like that , you'd not want to be a pro gambler .......................

 

opps .

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15 hours ago, Dog said:

You can't ignore me....you're my bitch.

What was that you said about those who get personal? Something about small minds?

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11 hours ago, Raz'r said:

She does have a credibility problem...

Anybody linked to Trump in any way - working for him, with him, not voting for him, not liking him, not supporting him - has a credibility problem.

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https://www.newsweek.com/trump-campaign-advisors-only-invented-border-wall-idea-make-sure-he-slammed-1280503

“‘Donald Trump’s campaign advisers only invented the border wall promise as a memory trick to remind a difficult candidate to slam immigrants in speeches, according to a report.

‘How do we get him to continue to talk about immigration?’ Sam Nunberg, one of Mr. Trump’s early political advisers, recalled telling Roger J. Stone Jr., another adviser. ‘We’re going to get him to talk about he’s going to build a wall,’” the Timeswrote.

The government is crippled by a fake crises because of a manufactured campaign pledge designed to compensate for candidate Trump’s ADD issues.  What happened to my country?

Sorry @Dog it was never about border security or Mexican foreign aid to compensate for our broken government.   If it was we’d have universal Everify, permanent greencards for victims of human trafficking in exchange for testimony resulting in a conviction, and would update the cameras, sensors and patrols put in place by Presidents Bush and Obama.  

Meanwhile we would copy Canada by recruiting the best, brightest and highest achievers.    Instead we tried to lock them out of their grad programs by stopping them at the airports and make it increasingly hard for them to remain after they graduate.   Even if a large company wants to hire them, they may be refused if a single mistake is found in the paperwork.   Small companies are pretty well squeezed out by the complexity.   It’s not about illegals or terrorists.    It’s about people that don’t look like Kansas being allowed to do research at Kansas State.   That is offensive to some in government.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/12/13/its-much-harder-now-for-foreign-grads-to-get-jobs-at-us-tech-companies/#5832655e7bae

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/24/650520165/high-skilled-immigrants-call-out-the-trump-administrations-hypocrisy

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Once again, the Trump  campaign  administration is once again removing any option but capitulation from either side:

"If he has to give up a concrete wall, replace it with a steel fence in order to do that so that Democrats can say, 'See? He's not building a wall anymore,' that should help us move in the right direction"

Instead of giving the Democrats room to compromise with Trump, he is politically painting any compromise as gamesmanship on their part. Which, of course, only escalates the pressure for them to not give an inch. "Double or nothing" is no way to lead a country.

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3 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

Once again, the Trump  campaign  administration is once again removing any option but capitulation from either side:

"If he has to give up a concrete wall, replace it with a steel fence in order to do that so that Democrats can say, 'See? He's not building a wall anymore,' that should help us move in the right direction"

Instead of giving the Democrats room to compromise with Trump, he is politically painting any compromise as gamesmanship on their part. Which, of course, only escalates the pressure for them to not give an inch. "Double or nothing" is no way to lead a country.

Art of the deal. This is someone who knows how to do dealsss. It is going to be a terrific deal just wait and see. 

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35 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Art of the deal. This is someone who knows how to do dealsss. It is going to be a terrific deal just wait and see. 

given the existing collateral damage , even if it was it wouldn't be .

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5 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

Once again, the Trump  campaign  administration is once again removing any option but capitulation from either side:

"If he has to give up a concrete wall, replace it with a steel fence in order to do that so that Democrats can say, 'See? He's not building a wall anymore,' that should help us move in the right direction"

Instead of giving the Democrats room to compromise with Trump, he is politically painting any compromise as gamesmanship on their part. Which, of course, only escalates the pressure for them to not give an inch. "Double or nothing" is no way to lead a country.

Not that your opinion is really relevant but how is offering a steel fence instead of a concrete wall removing any option for capitulation?

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2 minutes ago, Dog said:

Not that your opinion is really relavent but how is offering a steel fence instead of a concrete wall removing any option for capitulation?

If you don't think my opinion is relevant, it makes no sense you asking. Get back to me when you think it is relevant to the discussion and I'll give you an answer.

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1 minute ago, Bent Sailor said:

If you don't think my opinion is relevant, it makes no sense you asking. Get back to me when you think it is relevant to the discussion and I'll give you an answer.

The correct answer is...it's not.

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Just now, Dog said:

The correct answer is...it's not.

Now if you imagine I said it was removing any option for capitulation, you'd actually have a point that's relevant to my post.

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4 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

Now if you imagine I said it was removing any option for capitulation, you'd actually have a point that's relevant to my post.

The correct answer remains of course...it's not

Offering a steel fence instead of a concrete wall does not remove any option but capitulation. Does it?

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8 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Anybody linked to Trump in any way - working for him, with him, not voting for him, not liking him, not supporting him - has a credibility problem.

Bullshit

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10 minutes ago, Dog said:

The correct answer remains of course...it's not

Offering a steel fence instead of a concrete wall does not remove any option but capitulation. Does it?

Do you think my opinion is relevant or not? Do make up your mind - you keep asking as if it is, but you seem afraid that admitting that will mean I'll slap you upside the head with some facts again.

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Just now, Bent Sailor said:

Do you think my opinion is relevant or not? Do make up your mind - you keep asking as if it is, but you seem afraid that admitting that will mean I'll slap you upside the head with some facts again.

When your opinion is that offering a steel fence instead of a concrete wall removes any option but capitulation I think your opinion is just stupid.

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4 minutes ago, Dog said:

When your opinion is that offering a steel fence instead of a concrete wall removes any option but capitulation I think your opinion is just stupid.

I didn't ask if you thought it was smart, because you have never been a good judge of intelligence. I asked whether you think it's relevant. You keep responding to my opinion as if it's relevant. You continue asking me questions as if you think it's relevant. However you seem a little head-shy at the idea of inviting another beating with the facts, so keep tap-dancing around actually admitting that.

You get back to me when you think my opinion is relevant and I'll happily show why your opinion about my view is as worthless as the rest of your drivel. 

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6 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

I didn't ask if you thought it was smart, because you have never been a good judge of intelligence. I asked whether you think it's relevant. You keep responding to my opinion as if it's relevant. You continue asking me questions as if you think it's relevant. However you seem a little head-shy at the idea of inviting another beating with the facts, so keep tap-dancing around actually admitting that.

You get back to me when you think my opinion is relevant and I'll happily show why your opinion about my view is as worthless as the rest of your drivel. 

Offering a steel fence instead of a concrete wall does not remove any option but capitulation. it just does not.  Your opinion that it does is profoundly stupid, factually wrong and irrelevant.

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Just now, Dog said:

Offering a steel fence instead of a concrete wall does not remove any option but capitulation. it just does not.  Your opinion that it does is profoundly stupid, factually wrong and irrelevant.

You are incorrect. If you'd like to know why, feel free to admit the relevance of my opinion. We both know you couldn't think your way out a wet paper bag, so the idea you could understand politics more complex than "Red Good, Blue Bad" and come to it yourself is laughable.

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1 minute ago, Bent Sailor said:

You are incorrect. If you'd like to know why, feel free to admit the relevance of my opinion. We both know you couldn't think your way out a wet paper bag, so the idea you could understand politics more complex than "Red Good, Blue Bad" and come to it yourself is laughable.

No...I'm correct.

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1 minute ago, Dog said:

No...I'm correct.

And in the same vein, with the same level of evidence - no, you're not.

Given the level of your reasoning so far, now is when you respond with a "Nuh uh, times infinity"

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12 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

And in the same vein, with the same level of evidence - no, you're not.

Given the level of your reasoning so far, now is when you respond with a "Nuh uh, times infinity"

Just to be clear, holding that one's opinion is irrelevant if one is not instrumental to the decision making process is your standard. "You are not instrumental in, or really even relevant to, the decision making process. As such, your opinion isn't relevant"....Bent Sailor.  That you don't like your own standard applied to you is your problem.

Now explain to the class how Trump offering a steel fence instead of a concrete wall removes any option but capitulation.

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22 minutes ago, Dog said:

Just to be clear, holding that one's opinion is irrelevant if one is not instrumental to the decision making process is your standard. "You are not instrumental in, or really even relevant to, the decision making process. As such, your opinion isn't relevant"....Bent Sailor.  That you don't like your own standard applied to you is your problem.

When one's not instrumental in, or relevant to, the decision making process, one's opinion isn't relevant to it either. Most people over the age of eight get that. You are just  butt-hurt about that fact being pointed out to you. And, once again, your precious feelings being hurt back then don't make that comment relevant to this conversation. I am not speaking about the decision itself. I am speaking about the politics surrounding making the decision. 

I know, that's a little hard for you to grasp, so just ask your nurse to explain it to you when they give you today's meds.

 

Quote

Now explain to the class how Trump offering a steel fence instead of a concrete wall removes any option but capitulation.

When you feel my opinion is relevant, I'll happily slap you upside the head with the obvious reason. Until then, you'll have to suffer in the (admittedly black) depths of your ignorance.

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1 minute ago, Bent Sailor said:

When one's not instrumental the decision making process, one's decision isn't relevant to it. Most people over the age of eight get that. You are still butt-hurt about that fact being pointed out to you. And, once again, your precious feelings being hurt back then don't make that comment relevant to this conversation. I am not speaking about the decision itself. I am speaking about the politics surrounding making the decision. 

I know, that's a little hard for you to grasp, so just ask your nurse to explain it to you when they give you today's meds.

 

When you feel my opinion is relevant, I'll happily slap you upside the head with the obvious reason. Until then, you'll have to suffer in the (admittedly black) depths of your ignorance.

Ha!

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Just now, Dog said:

Ha!

You forgot the "times infinity". Christ, if you're going to argue like a schoolyard brat, you can at least get the basics right. :rolleyes: 

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58 minutes ago, Dog said:

Bullshit

Now that is a topic you know a great deal about.

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“The report was based on internal Customs and Border Protection documents from the 2017 fiscal year. It concluded that less than one half of 1 percent of the agents’ suggestions to secure the Southwest border mentioned the need for a wall.”

www.nytimes.com/2018/03/22/us/politics/border-patrol-wall-immigration-trump-senate-democrats.amp.html

 

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welcome-letter.jpg

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Folks in the border areas agree with the need for border security, and more funds for it...but not for a wall. But from what I see, they are democRATS not Americans, so what do they know?

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This might be a good time to mention it's plural - walls not wall. And they are closing in.  as Eva Dent

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Fully 820 miles of the nearly 2,000-mile US-Mexico border -- 41% -- is represented by a Republican, Rep. Will Hurd of Texas, who opposes a wall and was just reelected in a tough race in which he emphasized that position. (His democratic opponent also did not want wall). NONE of the border Texans want a wall.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/03/politics/border-wall-meets-reality/

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24 minutes ago, hasher said:

Fully 820 miles of the nearly 2,000-mile US-Mexico border -- 41% -- is represented by a Republican, Rep. Will Hurd of Texas, who opposes a wall and was just reelected in a tough race in which he emphasized that position. (His democratic opponent also did not want wall). NONE of the border Texans want a wall.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/03/politics/border-wall-meets-reality/

That’s gotta be Fake News!

Why, President Trump has told us he has overwhelming support for the wall. Among Border Patrol personnel, as well as just about every other group. 

He couldn’t be lying, could he?

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3 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

That’s gotta be Fake News!

Why, President Trump has told us he has overwhelming support for the wall. Among Border Patrol personnel, as well as just about every other group. 

He couldn’t be lying, could he?

Rep. Will Hurd (R-Texas)

Hurd, a House moderate who won reelection in November by less than 1 point, has pushed for a “smart border wall” that uses “cutting edge” technology to protect the border rather than a physical wall.

“The American people sent us up here to get things done, and the only way we can get things done is by working together,” he tweeted Thursday.

The American people sent us up here to get things done, and the only way we can get things done is by working together. pic.twitter.com/yVWhP5vVra

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/422424-the-8-republicans-who-voted-against-trumps-border-wall

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But of course if he just takes his ball and goes home, we should all roll over, play dead.  If that doesn't work let's beg him to come back so we can play with his little ball.   Oops, I met wall.

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1 hour ago, hasher said:

Hurd, a House moderate who won reelection in November by less than 1 point, has pushed for a “smart border wall” that uses “cutting edge” technology to protect the border rather than a physical wall.

Notice how they GOP are following Trump down the path of redefining words so they can claim a win no matter what?

wall: (noun) a continuous vertical brick or stone structure that encloses or divides an area of land.

Trump wants to redefine it to include steel fences and now we have Hurd trying to spin any technology used to protect the border as being a "wall".

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The Wall is Dead .

Long Live the Barrier .

 

Trump Offers a ‘Steel Barrier,’ but Democrats Are Unmoved

Quote

“I informed my folks to say that we’ll build a steel barrier,” Mr. Trump told reporters after returning to the White House from a senior staff meeting at Camp David. He added of the Democrats, “They don’t like concrete, so we’ll give them steel.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/06/us/politics/trump-shutdown.html

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Democrats: A physical barrier is cost ineffective, draws funds away from things that could actually work, and we've already said we can allocate $1.3 billion towards it.

Trump: OK, if doesn't need to be a concrete wall, it can be a "see through wall" made of steel. And you have to give me the same $5 billion in funds I demanded. And if you say yes, it proves you were just hung up on the "wall" label.

 

Where is Chesapeake when you need to explain compromise to the right?

 

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tRump has no desire for a resolution , he is building up steam to declare the emergency .

the fool truly sees himself as the saviour of America .

this will be ugly .

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2 hours ago, hasher said:

Rep. Will Hurd (R-Texas)

Hurd, a House moderate who won reelection in November by less than 1 point, has pushed for a “smart border wall” that uses “cutting edge” technology to protect the border rather than a physical wall.

“The American people sent us up here to get things done, and the only way we can get things done is by working together,” he tweeted Thursday.

The American people sent us up here to get things done, and the only way we can get things done is by working together. pic.twitter.com/yVWhP5vVra

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/422424-the-8-republicans-who-voted-against-trumps-border-wall

A virtual wall. firewall. pony wall, Shoji, who cares.   Rep Hurd is right, they are supposed to get job done.  Functional security systems as part of a comprehensive immigration package including DACA and intelligent immigration?    If he can propose something and sell his Fuhrer on a Bush / Obama style system of sensors and patrols, I’m good with calling it Donald’s Deer camera Demi wall.   

32 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

Notice how they GOP are following Trump down the path of redefining words so they can claim a win no matter what?

wall: (noun) a continuous vertical brick or stone structure that encloses or divides an area of land.

Trump wants to redefine it to include steel fences and now we have Hurd trying to spin any technology used to protect the border as being a "wall".

Better to allow them to save face then to force the Republicans to fight a lost battle until all is in ruins.   This battlefield is on our own soil.

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@Lark - I honestly wish Hurd all the best on that front. His party has saddled themselves with an idiot that cannot take "No" for an answer and is willing to destroy anything and everything to get his way. Like Jeff, he doesn't care who is hurt burning the bitch down, so long as "they" don't get any benefit from it.

That said, I don't see it working. Someone has told Trump that he can get everything he wants if he can declare a national emergency. All he needs to to is stick to his demands and he'll be able to present the issue as a crisis only he can fix by overriding the will of Congress with his emergency powers. Remember when the right-wing nutters were telling everyone how Obama was going to manufacture a crisis to override the will of Congress? Yeah, those conspiracy theories went nowhere... and now the GOP president is outright stating that is his intention.

$5 billion isn't chump change. The Republicans were right not to give it to Donald. The Democrats are right not to do it either. The problem your country faces is how you deal with a President that manufactures a crisis that enables him to ignore the rest of his government. You don't fix a spoilt brat by giving them what they want cos they throw a tantrum. You give the brat a spanking.

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26 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

@Lark - I honestly wish Hurd all the best on that front. His party has saddled themselves with an idiot that cannot take "No" for an answer and is willing to destroy anything and everything to get his way. Like Jeff, he doesn't care who is hurt burning the bitch down, so long as "they" don't get any benefit from it.

That said, I don't see it working. Someone has told Trump that he can get everything he wants if he can declare a national emergency. All he needs to to is stick to his demands and he'll be able to present the issue as a crisis only he can fix by overriding the will of Congress with his emergency powers. Remember when the right-wing nutters were telling everyone how Obama was going to manufacture a crisis to override the will of Congress? Yeah, those conspiracy theories went nowhere... and now the GOP president is outright stating that is his intention.

$5 billion isn't chump change. The Republicans were right not to give it to Donald. The Democrats are right not to do it either. The problem your country faces is how you deal with a President that manufactures a crisis that enables him to ignore the rest of his government. You don't fix a spoilt brat by giving them what they want cos they throw a tantrum. You give the brat a spanking.

I agree in general.   It sucks when the right decision (telling a bully no when he tries to go back on his word) is more expensive then keeping government open.   I’ve had to make a similar stand, knowing it was more expensive in the short run but capitulation would likely cost more down the road.   It is hard to compromise with a man that can’t keep his word long enough to sign a debt agreement.    A face saving compromise seems to be the exception, no matter how idiotically Trump trapped himself.    Don’t give him a stupid wall, since it will inevitably need a lot more money next year to make it taller, deeper, or be torn down when it violates water drainage treaties with Mexico.    But let him call boarder security that we can all agree is necessary to some degree (unless you want 100% open boarders) a virtual wall if he wants.   

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Sometimes making the stand is the most important thing for the future.  Trump has proved to be a liar.  There are many other dishonors that will be his epitaph.  Life requires destroying evil.

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50 minutes ago, Lark said:

A face saving compromise seems to be the exception, no matter how idiotically Trump trapped himself.    Don’t give him a stupid wall, since it will inevitably need a lot more money next year to make it taller, deeper, or be torn down when it violates water drainage treaties with Mexico.    But let him call boarder security that we can all agree is necessary to some degree (unless you want 100% open boarders) a virtual wall if he wants.   

The face saving option might have worked before someone got it into his head he can get exactly what he wants by declaring a national emergency. Don't know which idiot suggested it to him, but Trump hasn't stopped talking about it since. The Democrats aren't going to give Trump his $5billion wall - concrete, steel, see through, or made of pixie dust. It was both politically and financially correct for the Republicans to refuse him and the math (financially & politically) hasn't changed.

Trump doesn't know how to give in, even to save face, so he's going to keep escalating this until he gets what he wants or gets slapped down so hard he's unwilling to try again. Hurd is still operating under the mistaken impression Trump can act rationally having put his ego on the line. He's mistaken.

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3 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

The face saving option might have worked before someone got it into his head he can get exactly what he wants by declaring a national emergency. Don't know which idiot suggested it to him, but Trump hasn't stopped talking about it since. The Democrats aren't going to give Trump his $5billion wall - concrete, steel, see through, or made of pixie dust. It was both politically and financially correct for the Republicans to do so and the math (financially & politically) hasn't changed.

Trump doesn't know how to give in, even to save face, so he's going to keep escalating this until he gets what he wants or gets slapped down so hard he's unwilling to try again. Hurd is still operating under the mistaken impression Trump can act rationally having put his ego on the line. He's mistaken.

National Emergency  (President Truman’s great mistake, but this time the war emergency is wars Trump wants to run away from anyway) will test the party loyalty of Trump’s Supreme Court.   I wonder if he realizes he can’t fire them if they break the loyalty path.   Or will some obey party doctrine out of long conditioned habit?   

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13 minutes ago, Lark said:

 National Emergency  (President Truman’s great mistake, but this time the war emergency is wars Trump wants to run away from anyway) will test the party loyalty of Trump’s Supreme Court.   I wonder if he realizes he can’t fire them if they break the loyalty path.   Or will some obey party doctrine out of long conditioned habit?   

Well, it would make for an interesting test to see how well they hold up under pressure to do the right thing. Better to find out now whether they'll put jurisprudence before country than when he's in front of them for trying to pardon himself. 

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On 1/3/2019 at 3:30 AM, Shootist Jeff said:

I asked @Gouvernail already when he posted this same meme and he never bothered to answer so maybe you can help me out....  what "war" are they escaping??

Yeah.  The international treaty mentions wars. 

I remember an America that welcomed those who came here to try to create a better life. 

 

With respect to WWJD, which was the context of my comment, your question has no relevance. 

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2 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

Well, it would make for an interesting test to see how well they hold up under pressure to do the right thing. Better to find out now whether they'll put jurisprudence before country than when he's in front of them for trying to pardon himself. 

The SCOTUS is not going to let Trump declare a state of emergency over a funding bill.

That's just hysterical speculation.

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6 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

The SCOTUS is not going to let Trump declare a state of emergency over a funding bill.

I don't disagree. I reckon the bench will slap that down, using the precedent set by Truman, with little more than five minutes discussion in the backroom. The conservative/loyal Republicans might file another of their dissents,  safe in the knowledge that it's just a protest without power, but I'd be very shocked if it was a 5-4 decision.

 

6 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

 That's just hysterical speculation.

Hysterical speculation backed by commentary from the POTUS. If it weren't for the fact that the President of the fucking United States was mouthing off about his ability to spit the dummy and use the consequences to override Congress, I'd chalk it up as just another random-level conspiracy theory and be done with it. Unfortunately, the president is involved and thinks he's onto a winner with this one. 

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12 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

The SCOTUS is not going to let Trump declare a state of emergency over a funding bill.

my reading is they don't act until after the declaration

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image.png.1da13dc42137fd885e3a7014d6e4e113.png

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i can;t help but think donny acts like dr. evil

no fricken cement wall, well then we'll have steel..  All I asked for is a cement wall...somebody throw me a bone

 

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On 1/4/2019 at 9:20 PM, Bent Sailor said:

To be frank here, Chesapeake, your post was unclear and you were waffling without coming to the point. Getting all pissy because someone asks you to be clear is the kind of thing we expect from Dog when he's cornered... so seeing you do it makes you look like you're trying to get out of stating your opinion too.

Also, if you honestly think that Trump hasn't chosen the wall to be his little hill to die on, you're not paying attention. He's stating it outright. He's threatening to keep the government in shut-down AND declare a national emergency unless he gets the wall. His VP is stating outright that there is no deal that doesn't include the wall.

You are, once again, hoping that Trump doesn't mean what he says, will grow into a better person, and will change his goal to one more reasonable than the one he's holding the government to ransom to attain. He's proven, time and again, to lack the depth for such games. He is what he presents himself to be. Nothing more. Stop projecting an imagined "better Trump" onto his actions and look at what he does. Whether he's intended it or not, he's painted himself into a corner where the only way he can "win" is by getting a wall. Like it or not, Trump is planting his ego flag on that hill. He's not climbing down until he gets what he wants or is forced down by something he cannot control.

Sorry Bent - gotta disagree.  Kirwan asked what I thought about the wall - and I pointed him to the post copied below, after which he called on me to "simply answer the fuckin' question".   How may ways does it need to be answered for someone to get it?  The other discussion w/Flash and J24 weren't really germane to Kirwan's attempt to box in a rightie. 

 

On 1/4/2019 at 2:01 PM, A guy in the Chesapeake said:
On 1/4/2019 at 1:56 PM, Raz'r said:

I've seen estimates of between $20B and $100B

Then maintain it.

you'd think if we wanted to stop illegals crossing the southern border, we could do with modern tech at 1/100th the cost, and be just as effective.  Without damaging the environment, taking land from landowners, and building an ugly as shit, ineffective monument to stupidity.

We can, and we should. 

 

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On 1/6/2019 at 2:24 AM, Bent Sailor said:

Once again, the Trump  campaign  administration is once again removing any option but capitulation from either side:

"If he has to give up a concrete wall, replace it with a steel fence in order to do that so that Democrats can say, 'See? He's not building a wall anymore,' that should help us move in the right direction"

Instead of giving the Democrats room to compromise with Trump, he is politically painting any compromise as gamesmanship on their part. Which, of course, only escalates the pressure for them to not give an inch. "Double or nothing" is no way to lead a country.

it is crazy on all parts.  A commentator on NPR this morning described the situation this way:  (parpaphrasing) "The fight over the wall has become a symbolic implementation of identity politics.  How do you compromise on symbolism? "  I think that Trump's insistence on a physical wall from pacific to the atlantic is dumb.  There are indeed places where new/better physical barriers make sense, and there are places where they would be a tragic & wasteful environmental impact.  I think that the D intransigent opposition to anything that can be called a wall is slightly less helpful than the  sea-to-sea barrier idea.  

What it points to is that people in power still care more about party rhetoric than in working for solutions.  

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There's a certain amount of truth to the rhetoric comment but it's also about political power going forward.  Both sides are looking at '20 and support of their voters but, due to Trump's flip flopping and concrete (or steel) demands this has come down to a "who blinks" situation with Trump backed into a tighter corner than Congress. Real Clear is still showing Chuck and Nancy with lower unfavorables than Trump (although not favorables) so, particularly with the exit of Kelly to moderate his information flow, the damage is more likely to accumulate on R's who have a tougher Senate map in '20.

I think the disagreement is both electoral AND political; Dem's look at acquiescing to what they view as an irrational, ineffective measure as encouraging more irrational ineffective demands, impeding their agenda (which they view as benefiting the country).

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3 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

it is crazy on all parts.  A commentator on NPR this morning described the situation this way:  (parpaphrasing) "The fight over the wall has become a symbolic implementation of identity politics.  How do you compromise on symbolism? "  I think that Trump's insistence on a physical wall from pacific to the atlantic is dumb.  There are indeed places where new/better physical barriers make sense, and there are places where they would be a tragic & wasteful environmental impact.  I think that the D intransigent opposition to anything that can be called a wall is slightly less helpful than the  sea-to-sea barrier idea.  

What it points to is that people in power still care more about party rhetoric than in working for solutions.  

The old "there are bad people on both sides" argument.

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7 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

The old "there are bad people on both sides" argument.

Sure it's old - doesn't mean that it's not right.   Don't know why you lovely lefties have such a hard time admitting that your side too has partisan hacks who are more interested in party perpetuation than in responsible change.   

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3 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

it is crazy on all parts.  A commentator on NPR this morning described the situation this way:  (parpaphrasing) "The fight over the wall has become a symbolic implementation of identity politics.  How do you compromise on symbolism? "  I think that Trump's insistence on a physical wall from pacific to the atlantic is dumb.  There are indeed places where new/better physical barriers make sense, and there are places where they would be a tragic & wasteful environmental impact.  I think that the D intransigent opposition to anything that can be called a wall is slightly less helpful than the  sea-to-sea barrier idea.  

What it points to is that people in power still care more about party rhetoric than in working for solutions.  

Trump hasn't spent the billions he already got for the wall.

Trump had a deal for the wall lined up but refused to sign because his immigrant-torture loving advisor Stephen Miller said no.

Trump had a deal to sign this December but refused to sign because Limbaugh mocked his manhood.

This ones on Trump, NPRs overequivocating partisan bullshittery aside.

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7 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Sneak peek at Trump's final fitting before his State of the Union Address

 

Twall.jpg

That's what the USA has always needed. Don Cherry in the White House.

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The Wall is Trump's big campaign promise which he has to hold to or lose his base support. Everything he says is a lie or an exaggeration. There is no invasion, there are no terrorists streaming across the border, there are already hundreds of miles of fencing/border walls and buttloads of money spent on enforcement.

Any compromise is giving into the blowhard conman bully.  The End.

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50 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Sure it's old - doesn't mean that it's not right.   Don't know why you lovely lefties have such a hard time admitting that your side too has partisan hacks who are more interested in party perpetuation than in responsible change.   

This is not one of those times.

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2 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

The Wall is Trump's big campaign promise which he has to hold to or lose his base support. Everything he says is a lie or an exaggeration. There is no invasion, there are no terrorists streaming across the border, there are already hundreds of miles of fencing/border walls and buttloads of money spent on enforcement.

Any compromise is giving into the blowhard conman bully.  The End.

 

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1 minute ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

We disagree - but, I'm interested in hearing why you think so. 

 

Trump wants the Dems to give him something Republicans wouldn't even give him.

How is that reasonable? Why would the Dems, who just "won" the house, roll over for something that their voters(and 60+% of Americans) don't want?  That being an increase in the physical border length?

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2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Trump wants the Dems to give him something Republicans wouldn't even give him.

How is that reasonable? Why would the Dems, who just "won" the house, roll over for something that their voters(and 60+% of Americans) don't want?  That being an increase in the physical border length?

Are you suggesting appeasement isn't a reasonable approach to negotiation with an unstable wannabe strongman?

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