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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
rainbowrunner

Steel Boats

821 posts in this topic

Bugger beating around the bush talking about aluminium boats and steel planes let's have a good old chat about good old fashioned steel cruising sailboats boats. Our current boat is a tank like 43' steel cutter. Much cheaper, stronger, roomier and faster than our old Pacific Seacraft 34. More cruising bang for cruising buck.

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Yet another metal boats thread? I'm not sure Brent can take that without his head exploding.

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Jeez, a couple of minutes ago there were TWO of these threads, one with PICTURE!!

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Not any metal. Steel.

 

you must be new around here.

where are the tits?

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Nope, not a SA Newby, but a bit tired of the aluminium love fest on the so called Metal Boat thread.

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If you don't like the news, make some of your own. Starting a redundant thread doesn't help.

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Nope, not a SA Newby, but a bit tired of the aluminium love fest on the so called Metal Boat thread.

 

Last time I checked aluminium was a metal.

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The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor. Heavier boats feel better at anchor and that's where cruising boats spend 95% of their time.

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Great, another one for the ignore list.

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Great, another one for the ignore list.

IDK...sounds like a BS sock puppet. Could be entertaining, in a village idiot kind of way.

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"The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor."

 

What a quaint observation.

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"The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor."

 

What a quaint observation.

He's def a prospective candidate for a Brent boat...they don't sail, and the reef holds them securely in position.

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Steel yourself for the predictable

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Great, another one for the ignore list.

IDK...sounds like a BS sock puppet. Could be entertaining, in a village idiot kind of way.
XXXX and Bundy Rum means a Queenslander.

 

Think Florida ...

 

To be fair, Queensland is one of the few places where a steel boat makes sense, lots of coral bommies along that coast.

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Will this thread feature a lot of irony?

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Steel yourself for the predictable

 

I dunno - we may hear some unpresidented info.

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Will this thread feature a lot of irony?

 

It will have roughly 99.8% Irony, just like the mild steel being discussed here.

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Forging onwards.

It will be heated, beaten till way past drawn out and quench any enthusiasm in the slack.

Check your temper as you finish.

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I'll be sure to polish up my prose, though I'll probably keep it blue.

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A steel boat makes sense as a cruising boat if it is dirt cheap, as many of them are. I would prefer to be out on a spacious steel boat than cramped in a small beautiful/fast alu/glass sailer or even worse tossing off about an unattainable boat behind a computer somewhere.

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What a quaint observation.

What a conceited comment.

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A steel boat makes sense as a cruising boat if it is dirt cheap, as many of them are. I would prefer to be out on a spacious steel boat than cramped in a small beautiful/fast alu/glass sailer or even worse tossing off about an unattainable boat behind a computer somewhere.

 

I'd prefer for you to be out on a spacious steel boat too. Please. Go.

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What a quaint observation.

What a conceited comment.

You will get used to it, this isn't PC Anarchy

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The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor. Heavier boats feel better at anchor and that's where cruising boats spend 95% of their time.

What??? A boat's material has nothing to do with how it behaves at anchor. Hull shape, top hamper, ballast, displacement, CG, scope, and more, yes. Hull material, no.

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The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor. Heavier boats feel better at anchor and that's where cruising boats spend 95% of their time.

What??? A boat's material has nothing to do with how it behaves at anchor. Hull shape, top hamper, ballast, displacement, CG, scope, and more, yes. Hull material, no.

Sure it does. All other factors kept constant the heavier boat will behave better at anchor.

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What a quaint observation.

What a conceited comment.
You will get used to it, this isn't PC Anarchy
"PC anarchy" would be a bit of an oxymoron, wouldn't it?

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Great, another one for the ignore list.

IDK...sounds like a BS sock puppet. Could be entertaining, in a village idiot kind of way.
XXXX and Bundy Rum means a Queenslander.

 

Think Florida ...

 

To be fair, Queensland is one of the few places where a steel boat makes sense, lots of coral bommies along that coast.

There is also a long way between anchorage's in some areas, and a need to move at a decent pace to get away from a cyclone, even sail upwind sometimes. While there are steel cruisers that move along, most are bloody slow.

I would say qld is the home of the cruising multi, shallow draft is a better way than bouncing steel off the reef.

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The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor. Heavier boats feel better at anchor and that's where cruising boats spend 95% of their time.

What??? A boat's material has nothing to do with how it behaves at anchor. Hull shape, top hamper, ballast, displacement, CG, scope, and more, yes. Hull material, no.

Sure it does. All other factors kept constant the heavier boat will behave better at anchor.

You clearly do not understand displacement. You can have 2 boats of exactly the same shape and displcement with one built of steel and the other built of aluminum and they will both float at the same waterline, and if the ballast in each is located properly they can have the same CG. The steel boat will have heavier structure and the aluminum one will have lighter structure so in order to float at the same WL the aluminum one will require more ballast. If the steel boat's ballast is at z the aluminum boat's ballast being heavier can be located at z + some number to equal the CG of the steel boat. Of course most designers might opt to use the same ballast position of the steel one in the aluminum one in order to get better stability and more sail carrying power in the aluminum boat.

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Aluminium hulls weigh around 30% less than steel.

 

The hull weight is one third or less the weight of a completed boat.

 

So an aluminium hulled boat isn't going to be much lighter than a steel hulled boat, if they are the same design.

 

Sure some steel boats are heavy tubs, but that isn't just because they are steel.

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Our new friend's boat just broke its mooring...

6135071750_83a3cc49fe_b.jpg

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The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor. Heavier boats feel better at anchor and that's where cruising boats spend 95% of their time.

What??? A boat's material has nothing to do with how it behaves at anchor. Hull shape, top hamper, ballast, displacement, CG, scope, and more, yes. Hull material, no.
Sure it does. All other factors kept constant the heavier boat will behave better at anchor.
You clearly do not understand displacement.
Umm... you clearly do not understand physics... the mass of steel is three times greater than aluminium. Do I need to explain to you why aluminium anchors are uncommon? Same principle applies when all other factors equal a steel boat behaves better than aluminium at anchor.

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The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor. Heavier boats feel better at anchor and that's where cruising boats spend 95% of their time.

What??? A boat's material has nothing to do with how it behaves at anchor. Hull shape, top hamper, ballast, displacement, CG, scope, and more, yes. Hull material, no.
Sure it does. All other factors kept constant the heavier boat will behave better at anchor.
You clearly do not understand displacement.
Umm... you clearly do not understand physics... the mass of steel is three times greater than aluminium. Do I need to explain to you why aluminium anchors are uncommon? Same principle applies when all other factors equal a steel boat behaves better than aluminium at anchor.
My employer will be upset when I tell him I didn't design our boats (FRP, steel and aluminum) correctly for the past 30+ years. Try harder Dennis.

 

Edit: I think you are focused too closely on the particular structural material and not the overall shape, center of gravity and total displacement of the boat. And yes I understand the difference in weight of the two materials (sg of AL = 2.6 plus or minus depending on the alloy and sg of steel is 7.8).

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Does Brent have a new sock?

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Don't think so, he has a bit of qld bogan in his text, different style of arrogance too

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Does Brent have a new sock?

Already been suggested. Brent has been taking a beating on here. I believe he had created several sock puppets on the other message forums when he was taking a beating there. It's the same spouting of ignorant bullshit.

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While there are steel cruisers that move along, most are bloody slow.

I would say qld is the home of the cruising multi, shallow draft is a better way...

Agreed. If you've got a lot of $$$ a big cat is the best option.

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... for the past 30+ years. Try harder Dennis

Try reading my comments more closely Mr Big Shot Boat Designer. I never mentioned displacement. I said all other factors equal a steel boat behave better at anchor than a aluminium boat. Because it is heavier. All other factors being equal means same design, hull shape etc etc etc etc.

 

I think you need an example. I spent several months on the east coast of the US in the company of an aluminium Van De Stadt 34. Fast boat but it danced around at anchor like a young filly. Made me dizzy to watch. Was a pain in tight anchorages because it didn't swing with the other boats.

 

Now later I came upon a steel Van De Stadt 34. I never saw it sail but I saw it at anchor. Totally different kettle of fish.

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Don't think so, he has a bit of qld bogan in his text, different style of arrogance too

Classy. Are you a GPS old boy or otherwise better than a bogan? From the north side of the river or something? Inherit something off Mummy and Daddy?

 

No I'm not arrogant I'm just annoyed at the unnecessary bullying of Brent Swain that goes on here. I've been watching it for years.

 

Kind of pathetic to watch grown men getting their jollies demeaning someone who is obviously passionate fanatic. Fanatics are easy targets.

 

I'd prefer to share this steel boat thread with Brent Swain and other misguided steel boat owners than the pompous arrogant pricks I am thoroughly tired of reading in other threads.

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Don't think so, he has a bit of qld bogan in his text, different style of arrogance too

 

 

No I'm not arrogant I'm just annoyed at the unnecessary bullying of Brent Swain that goes on here. I've been watching it for years.

 

Kind of pathetic to watch grown men getting their jollies demeaning someone who is obviously passionate fanatic. Fanatics are easy targets.

 

 

 

Oh, so BS is the VICTIM of bullying???

 

You might want to swing your compass and align your radar a bit. In other words, pull your head out of your ass and get real.

 

You can find the shitfights he instigates on all corners of the Internet.

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Yeah whatever. Got your jollies yet? If not you win. You like winning don't you?

 

I'd prefer to talk Jotamastic 90.

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Don't think so, he has a bit of qld bogan in his text, different style of arrogance too

Classy. Are you a GPS old boy or otherwise better than a bogan? From the north side of the river or something? Inherit something off Mummy and Daddy?

 

No I'm not arrogant I'm just annoyed at the unnecessary bullying of Brent Swain that goes on here. I've been watching it for years.

 

Kind of pathetic to watch grown men getting their jollies demeaning someone who is obviously passionate fanatic. Fanatics are easy targets.

 

I'd prefer to share this steel boat thread with Brent Swain and other misguided steel boat owners than the pompous arrogant pricks I am thoroughly tired of reading in other threads.

 

 

What's a GPS? Just curious. I know what a JAFA is.

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Olaf, are you trying to say there is neglible difference between a steel and aluminium Van De Stadt 34? Brent Swain would like to hear you say that louder.

 

In any case, I am not big time boat designer like Jose, but my poor backward bogan pea brain tells me that extra ton is all low. And I would say the extra 25% down low does make a big difference to the behavior if a sailboat.

 

Isn't this one of the reasons so many on cruising anarchy get a hard on every time someone mentions a "steel boat".

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Don't think so, he has a bit of qld bogan in his text, different style of arrogance too

Classy. Are you a GPS old boy or otherwise better than a bogan? From the north side of the river or something? Inherit something off Mummy and Daddy?

 

No I'm not arrogant I'm just annoyed at the unnecessary bullying of Brent Swain that goes on here. I've been watching it for years.

 

Kind of pathetic to watch grown men getting their jollies demeaning someone who is obviously passionate fanatic. Fanatics are easy targets.

 

I'd prefer to share this steel boat thread with Brent Swain and other misguided steel boat owners than the pompous arrogant pricks I am thoroughly tired of reading in other threads.

What's a GPS? Just curious. I know what a JAFA is.

I think GPS is a wanky private school. Can't remember which one, and the river I am north of is a long way from the one Shane is thinking of.

Shane, read your first post again dickhead and tell me it doesn't reek of Australian slang in a way that a Canadian (IE Brent) would struggle to emulate.

I disagree that multis are only for deep pockets. There are some pretty cool trimarans that have come through my area in the last few years, all looking cheap to buy and run. There is a guy in a little green wharram who is living the dream. There are older, ugly looking cats going for reasonable prices. I don't see the advantage for steel monos around here

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What's a GPS? Just curious. I know what a JAFA is.

Literally it means "Greater Public School". But it really is a rich private school.

 

In Australia, private school kids especially, but also other elitists like to demean working class people as "bogans" (somewhere between "trailer trash" or "redneck").

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Olaf, are you trying to say there is neglible difference between a steel and aluminium Van De Stadt 34? Brent Swain would like to hear you say that louder.

In any case, I am not big time boat designer like Jose, but my poor backward bogan pea brain tells me that extra ton is all low. And I would say the extra 25% down low does make a big difference to the behavior if a sailboat.

Isn't this one of the reasons so many on cruising anarchy get a hard on every time someone mentions a "steel boat".

According to the VDS site the Alu 34 has 200kg more ballast than the steel one.

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There are some pretty cool trimarans that have come through my area in the last few years, all looking cheap to buy and run. There is a guy in a little green wharram who is living the dream. There are older, ugly looking cats going for reasonable prices. I don't see the advantage for steel monos around here

Finally, some steel boat talk.

 

Yeah, I agree there are some cool trimarans. My first racing experiences were on a home built tri in Port Moresby. A absolute dog upwind but when the wind dropped we ate em for breakfast.

 

But my wife and I looked for a year from Hobart to Cooktown and were only able to find a steelie in our price, accommodation and speed range.

 

The truth is I didn't want a steel boat. My wife was insistent. Despite misgivings I've grown to appreciate the damn thing.

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what i do understand is that us northerners are either prepping our boats for next season or are in other ways currently not out sailing like due to it beeing fucking cold (except for Dylan, who needs it like that)

 

but why is an Aussie starting a shitfight on the internet in the middle of Australian summer instead of beeing out on the water?

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According to the VDS site the Alu 34 has 200kg more ballast than the steel one.

Yes, of course it does, rocket scientist.

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but why is an Aussie starting a shitfight on the internet in the middle of Australian summer instead of beeing out on the water?

Because a good steel boat is rocking me to sleep on these fine summer nights. Make's me less tolerant of the the steel boat smack.

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you see, that is where you are mistaken.

we don't smack boats because of their material.

we do smack boats because they are fugly or zombies or because someone with a lot of determination but zero skill decided to weld something together to pound on reefs with.

we are profoundly offended by both, shoddy craftmanship and seamanship.

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There are some pretty cool trimarans that have come through my area in the last few years, all looking cheap to buy and run. There is a guy in a little green wharram who is living the dream. There are older, ugly looking cats going for reasonable prices. I don't see the advantage for steel monos around here

Finally, some steel boat talk.

 

Yeah, I agree there are some cool trimarans. My first racing experiences were on a home built tri in Port Moresby. A absolute dog upwind but when the wind dropped we ate em for breakfast.

 

But my wife and I looked for a year from Hobart to Cooktown and were only able to find a steelie in our price, accommodation and speed range.

 

The truth is I didn't want a steel boat. My wife was insistent. Despite misgivings I've grown to appreciate the damn thing.

What did you buy? There are a few gems out there.

Most steel boats I see come on the market seem to have had the touch of the diy dreamer to either the rig or interior.

Many home built or finished, and you can usually tell where they have diverged from the original Roberts plans

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I think steel is a great material for a cruising boat.

 

If my boat were made of steel instead of aluminum, I would love it just as much.

 

I think Brent's boats and his DIY philosophy are just fine.

 

I REALLY wish Brent's on-line personality was less abrasive.

 

Steve

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I got lost at the phrase "all things being equal"

 

So, two boats of identical design, except one is made of aluminum and one steel. Both floating on their lines.

 

This means they have the same displacement. You know, the weight of the boat. So the comment about the heavier one behaving differently is wrong.

 

Or maybe the suggestion is that the steel one IS heavier, and therefore sits lower and has less windage. That would not be my definition of "equal"

 

Now, how would they both float on the same waterline? The aluminum one has more ballast at the bottom of the keel. You know, righting moment.

 

We like righting moment, it means more sail carrying, more pointing, better sailing, and less rocking.

 

 

For the record, I don't have a problem with any material. But as an engineer, I'm offended by bad math.

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Olaf, are you trying to say there is neglible difference between a steel and aluminium Van De Stadt 34? Brent Swain would like to hear you say that louder.

 

In any case, I am not big time boat designer like Jose, but my poor backward bogan pea brain tells me that extra ton is all low. And I would say the extra 25% down low does make a big difference to the behavior if a sailboat.

 

Isn't this one of the reasons so many on cruising anarchy get a hard on every time someone mentions a "steel boat".

It's only down low relative to the mast, it's actually quite high relative to the center of gravity (due to the ballast underwater) so it hurts sailing performance and leads to more motion at anchor, not less, compared to an aluminum or plastic boat of EQUAL DISPLACEMENT.

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I think steel is a great material for a cruising boat.

 

If my boat were made of steel instead of aluminum, I would love it just as much.

 

I think Brent's boats and his DIY philosophy are just fine.

 

I REALLY wish Brent's on-line personality was less abrasive.

 

Steve

^^ agreed.

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I got lost at the phrase "all things being equal"

 

So, two boats of identical design, except one is made of aluminum and one steel. Both floating on their lines.

 

This means they have the same displacement. You know, the weight of the boat. So the comment about the heavier one behaving differently is wrong.

 

Or maybe the suggestion is that the steel one IS heavier, and therefore sits lower and has less windage. That would not be my definition of "equal"

 

Now, how would they both float on the same waterline? The aluminum one has more ballast at the bottom of the keel. You know, righting moment.

 

We like righting moment, it means more sail carrying, more pointing, better sailing, and less rocking.

 

 

For the record, I don't have a problem with any material. But as an engineer, I'm offended by bad math.

 

 

Using the Van de Stadt boats as an example, they have different sets of lines to accommodate the difference in displacement.

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I think steel is a great material for a cruising boat.

 

If my boat were made of steel instead of aluminum, I would love it just as much.

 

I think Brent's boats and his DIY philosophy are just fine.

 

I REALLY wish Brent's on-line personality was less abrasive.

 

Steve

^^ agreed.

 

Plus 3, just replace aluminum with fiberglass for me and add that I equally wish the Brent haters were less abrasive and ignorant but it will be what it will be.

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No I'm not arrogant I'm just annoyed at the unnecessary bullying of Brent Swain that goes on here. I've been watching it for years.

 

Have you noticed how many sites have permanently banned Brent?

 

His wounds are entirely self inflicted.

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Olaf, are you trying to say there is neglible difference between a steel and aluminium Van De Stadt 34? Brent Swain would like to hear you say that louder.

 

In any case, I am not big time boat designer like Jose, but my poor backward bogan pea brain tells me that extra ton is all low. And I would say the extra 25% down low does make a big difference to the behavior if a sailboat.

 

Isn't this one of the reasons so many on cruising anarchy get a hard on every time someone mentions a "steel boat".

 

The extra weight of a steel boat is NOT all low - quite the contrary. Building with a heavier material means that the extra weight is distributed all over - heavier decks, heavier cabin house, heavier topsides.

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Every boat is a compromise unless you are a multi millionaire and even then there are compromises, there is no such thing as the ideal boat and we all have our individual preferences. I love wooden boats, partly because my first experience was with a wooden boat. To me, the sanding, painting and varnishing, etc. were a major part of the pleasure, and nothing quite looks, feels, or smells like a wooden boat. Now that I am in my 60s, if I were in a position to own a boat I would go with CF, aluminum, or GRP because I just don't have the energy and physical flexibility necessary for the non-stop maintenance of a wooden boat, that I had years ago. I certainly understand why many sailors shudder at the thought of owning a wooden boat.

 

The problem with BS, as so many here have pointed out, is not his preference for steel boats, and doing things at a low cost, but his dogmatic insistence that his way is the only way, and his insulting of anyone that disagrees with him. That is a psychological problem, not a legitimate difference of opinion. You get what you give here, there are plenty of discussions here where people politely disagree with each other. BS occasionally has some good ideas but he has turned off so many people with his insulting behavior that most are not willing to listen to him anymore. And he has done that from the get go. I know Bob P. has his detractors here, and that's fine, everyone has their own opinions. Considering his experience and reputation, the fact that Bob shares his ideas here, is willing to accept different opinions and incorporate other's ideas in his work after spending a considerable portion of his career as a renowned boat designer, I think that speaks very highly of him. I am constantly amazed at how patient Bob often is, with the endless questions he gets here, often questioning his decisions because they didn't read the entire thread or just out of ignorance. There are others of Bob's reputation and stature in many fields that are arrogant pricks, something I would never accuse Bob of being. Bob can be a curmudgeon, for sure, but not an arrogant prick.* ;)

 

 

 

*DISCLAIMER: These are my original thoughts opinions and no consideration, renumeration, financial compensation or gratuity of any kind was given to the author by Mr. Perry in exchange for my words.

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The extra weight of a steel boat is NOT all low - quite the contrary. Building with a heavier material means that the extra weight is distributed all over - heavier decks, heavier cabin house, heavier topsides.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely true with my steel boat.

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Every boat is a compromise unless you are a multi millionaire and even then there are compromises, there is no such thing as the ideal boat and we all have our individual preferences. I love wooden boats, partly because my first experience was with a wooden boat. To me, the sanding, painting and varnishing, etc. were a major part of the pleasure, and nothing quite looks, feels, or smells like a wooden boat. Now that I am in my 60s, if I were in a position to own a boat I would go with CF, aluminum, or GRP because I just don't have the energy and physical flexibility necessary for the non-stop maintenance of a wooden boat, that I had years ago. I certainly understand why many sailors shudder at the thought of owning a wooden boat.

 

The problem with BS, as so many here have pointed out, is not his preference for steel boats, and doing things at a low cost, but his dogmatic insistence that his way is the only way, and his insulting of anyone that disagrees with him. That is a psychological problem, not a legitimate difference of opinion. You get what you give here, there are plenty of discussions here where people politely disagree with each other. BS occasionally has some good ideas but he has turned off so many people with his insulting behavior that most are not willing to listen to him anymore. And he has done that from the get go. I know Bob P. has his detractors here, and that's fine, everyone has their own opinions. Considering his experience and reputation, the fact that Bob shares his ideas here, is willing to accept different opinions and incorporate other's ideas in his work after spending a considerable portion of his career as a renowned boat designer, I think that speaks very highly of him. I am constantly amazed at how patient Bob often is, with the endless questions he gets here, often questioning his decisions because they didn't read the entire thread or just out of ignorance. There are others of Bob's reputation and stature in many fields that are arrogant pricks, something I would never accuse Bob of being. Bob can be a curmudgeon, for sure, but not an arrogant prick.* ;)

 

 

 

*DISCLAIMER: These are my original thoughts opinions and no consideration, renumeration, financial compensation or gratuity of any kind was given to the author by Mr. Perry in exchange for my words.

Exactly.

 

BS may have some good ideas, but his attitude and lack of engineering or design skills make them impossible to listen to. Ultimately, it's not worth the trouble to find the gems buried in a mountain of bullshit.

 

 

And my own disclaimer: I own a boat designed by BP, and I really like it. I also like that I get to tell him that. And even if I didn't like it, I believe he'd take that with grace and be willing to work on it.

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For the record, I don't have a problem with any material. But as an engineer, I'm offended by bad math.

 

Engineers who don't look past their pencils offend me. You are not the only engineer in this thread.

 

Now, tell me, bright spark, what affects a boat most at anchor?

 

Remember, my assertion here is heavier boats behave better at anchor all other factors equal. If I were you I would stop digging soon.

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The extra weight of a steel boat is NOT all low - quite the contrary. Building with a heavier material means that the extra weight is distributed all over - heavier decks, heavier cabin house, heavier topsides.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely true with my steel boat.

 

 

That's an ambiguous statement. Are you saying that your steel boat is "heavier decks, heavier cabin house, heavier topsides" or not?

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I think steel is a great material for a cruising boat.

 

If my boat were made of steel instead of aluminum, I would love it just as much.

 

I think Brent's boats and his DIY philosophy are just fine.

 

I REALLY wish Brent's on-line personality was less abrasive.

 

Steve

 

Yes, absolutely. I just get a little sick to my stomach when I see everyone piling in on him. Seems unnecessary.

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Don't think so, he has a bit of qld bogan in his text, different style of arrogance too

Classy. Are you a GPS old boy or otherwise better than a bogan? From the north side of the river or something? Inherit something off Mummy and Daddy?

 

No I'm not arrogant I'm just annoyed at the unnecessary bullying of Brent Swain that goes on here. I've been watching it for years.

 

Kind of pathetic to watch grown men getting their jollies demeaning someone who is obviously passionate fanatic. Fanatics are easy targets.

 

I'd prefer to share this steel boat thread with Brent Swain and other misguided steel boat owners than the pompous arrogant pricks I am thoroughly tired of reading in other threads.

 

 

Sorry, have to jump in here.

 

Brent Swain gets a bashing because he's wilfully ignorant, a proven fantasist and liar, plus he's an absolutely shit welder and all round craftsman. He's gotten a bashing on every forum he's ever been on for exactly the same reasons.

 

FWIW both myself and Mike Johns own steel boats.

 

FKT

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I have read hundreds of threads on this site. Unfortunately this thread seems to have been started by a troll, and if not that, then it was started by a close-minded, argumentative ass-hat.

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Olaf, are you trying to say there is neglible difference between a steel and aluminium Van De Stadt 34? Brent Swain would like to hear you say that louder.

 

In any case, I am not big time boat designer like Jose, but my poor backward bogan pea brain tells me that extra ton is all low. And I would say the extra 25% down low does make a big difference to the behavior if a sailboat.

 

Isn't this one of the reasons so many on cruising anarchy get a hard on every time someone mentions a "steel boat".

 

Listen, you simply don't understand the basics.

 

PANOPE is a Colvin Witch built in aluminium. It has more ballast lower down than a steel Witch to bring it down to its DWL. I'd expect PANOPE to be stiffer and better able to carry sail than the relatively more tender steel hull.

 

On anchor NO DIFFERENCE. The underwater body shape & surface area is identical.

 

I've built a steel Witch. What hull(s) have you built?

 

FKT

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"The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor."

 

What a quaint observation.

He's def a prospective candidate for a Brent boat...they don't sail, and the reef holds them securely in position.

 

The plastic and alumium boat peddlars can't stand any exchange of info on steel boats, especially when such an exchange reveals their total ignorance on the subject, ( as they masquerade as experts on all matters nautical.)

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I enjoy an exchange of information on well designed and built steel boats.

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For the record, I don't have a problem with any material. But as an engineer, I'm offended by bad math.

 

Engineers who don't look past their pencils offend me. You are not the only engineer in this thread.

 

Now, tell me, bright spark, what affects a boat most at anchor?

 

Remember, my assertion here is heavier boats behave better at anchor all other factors equal. If I were you I would stop digging soon.

 

 

I'll bet my fiberglass boat lays at anchor better then your steel boat. :)

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Every boat is a compromise unless you are a multi millionaire and even then there are compromises, there is no such thing as the ideal boat and we all have our individual preferences. I love wooden boats, partly because my first experience was with a wooden boat. To me, the sanding, painting and varnishing, etc. were a major part of the pleasure, and nothing quite looks, feels, or smells like a wooden boat. Now that I am in my 60s, if I were in a position to own a boat I would go with CF, aluminum, or GRP because I just don't have the energy and physical flexibility necessary for the non-stop maintenance of a wooden boat, that I had years ago. I certainly understand why many sailors shudder at the thought of owning a wooden boat.

 

The problem with BS, as so many here have pointed out, is not his preference for steel boats, and doing things at a low cost, but his dogmatic insistence that his way is the only way, and his insulting of anyone that disagrees with him. That is a psychological problem, not a legitimate difference of opinion. You get what you give here, there are plenty of discussions here where people politely disagree with each other. BS occasionally has some good ideas but he has turned off so many people with his insulting behavior that most are not willing to listen to him anymore. And he has done that from the get go. I know Bob P. has his detractors here, and that's fine, everyone has their own opinions. Considering his experience and reputation, the fact that Bob shares his ideas here, is willing to accept different opinions and incorporate other's ideas in his work after spending a considerable portion of his career as a renowned boat designer, I think that speaks very highly of him. I am constantly amazed at how patient Bob often is, with the endless questions he gets here, often questioning his decisions because they didn't read the entire thread or just out of ignorance. There are others of Bob's reputation and stature in many fields that are arrogant pricks, something I would never accuse Bob of being. Bob can be a curmudgeon, for sure, but not an arrogant prick.* ;)

 

 

 

*DISCLAIMER: These are my original thoughts opinions and no consideration, renumeration, financial compensation or gratuity of any kind was given to the author by Mr. Perry in exchange for my words.

Exactly.

 

BS may have some good ideas, but his attitude and lack of engineering or design skills make them impossible to listen to. Ultimately, it's not worth the trouble to find the gems buried in a mountain of bullshit.

 

 

And my own disclaimer: I own a boat designed by BP, and I really like it. I also like that I get to tell him that. And even if I didn't like it, I believe he'd take that with grace and be willing to work on it.

 

Search Silas Crosby to see how those who actually have sailed them think about how they sail. Surviving pounding in heavy surf on lee shores, , and decades of offshore cruising in all kinds of conditions ,including extreme conditions, without a single major structural failure is far more reliable info on engineering, and design skills than numbers on a piece of paper.

 

Here is a quote from a client who has been sailing the South Pacific in his 36 ft brentboat since 1997, a far more reliable source of info than armchair speculation from those who have never sailed on one, including those who have never even seen on ( like most of my critics)

(Quote)

 

As long as I wasn't hard on the wind or on a dead run, I used to sail at 6 knots in 12 knots of wind on my BS 36 foot single keeler. I struggle to do that now with my tired out old mainsail.

 

I have twice gone over 1000 miles in just over 6 days. This was largely close or beam reaching using a huge over-lapping genoa. This genoa was great on a reach and the reason for some fast passages but very poor to windward. On one of the passages I left a day later but still caught up and passed a 65 footer and beat him to port by night. On the other passage, I was close hauled in a sloppy sea and passed a Fantasia 35 in 12 hours despite them leaving two days before me. The fat and heavy Fantasia was just hobby horsing and couldn't make any progress against the trade wind slop. This has convinced more than anything of the need of having a boat that cut through seas and sail to windward.

 

I have hit 8 to 9 knots under sail many times. The max speed I have ever seen is 11 knots but I had some waves and probably some current helping me. Those ideal conditions only lasted a few hours.

 

If I can generalize, I normally sail up with the typically heavily loaded 42 to 45 foot cruisers. I am loaded down too with a 90 gallon fuel tank and a 120 gallon water tank and plenty of books so I think this is excellent. The wind is never like you read about in the books. It seems all I get is either El-Nino or La-Nina. I think anyone who thinks it is all downwind has never been offshore in the Pacific. When I sailed from Canada to Fiji in 96-97, I had only 8 days with the wind aft of the beam. I am still waiting for a classic downwind trip in the trades to see what she can really do.

 

I think performance under sail has a lot to do with how well a boat steers. The windvane self steering gear keeps the boat on a rail, with the tell-tales hardly flickering. I use the windvane most of the time but sometimes I find that a electronic pilot does better. A windvane may not hold you to the wind but if the wind is variable it is better to just go straight at a slower speed and follow a compass rather than follow every wind shift and add to the distance sailed. I met one guy who arrived in tears in Samoa.....his boat yawed 20 to 30 degrees all across the Pacific. He had almost totally given up on his windvane and was mentally and physically exhausted from having to handsteer.

 

You can have a huge variety of engine and prop combinations. Each one is a compromise. I have a 3 cylinder 35 hp Isuzu with a 1.5 to 1 gearbox and turn a small 14 x 10 two bladed prop. I like this combination since the prop has very little drag under sail. Th

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Every boat is a compromise unless you are a multi millionaire and even then there are compromises, there is no such thing as the ideal boat and we all have our individual preferences. I love wooden boats, partly because my first experience was with a wooden boat. To me, the sanding, painting and varnishing, etc. were a major part of the pleasure, and nothing quite looks, feels, or smells like a wooden boat. Now that I am in my 60s, if I were in a position to own a boat I would go with CF, aluminum, or GRP because I just don't have the energy and physical flexibility necessary for the non-stop maintenance of a wooden boat, that I had years ago. I certainly understand why many sailors shudder at the thought of owning a wooden boat.

 

The problem with BS, as so many here have pointed out, is not his preference for steel boats, and doing things at a low cost, but his dogmatic insistence that his way is the only way, and his insulting of anyone that disagrees with him. That is a psychological problem, not a legitimate difference of opinion. You get what you give here, there are plenty of discussions here where people politely disagree with each other. BS occasionally has some good ideas but he has turned off so many people with his insulting behavior that most are not willing to listen to him anymore. And he has done that from the get go. I know Bob P. has his detractors here, and that's fine, everyone has their own opinions. Considering his experience and reputation, the fact that Bob shares his ideas here, is willing to accept different opinions and incorporate other's ideas in his work after spending a considerable portion of his career as a renowned boat designer, I think that speaks very highly of him. I am constantly amazed at how patient Bob often is, with the endless questions he gets here, often questioning his decisions because they didn't read the entire thread or just out of ignorance. There are others of Bob's reputation and stature in many fields that are arrogant pricks, something I would never accuse Bob of being. Bob can be a curmudgeon, for sure, but not an arrogant prick.* ;)

 

 

 

*DISCLAIMER: These are my original thoughts opinions and no consideration, renumeration, financial compensation or gratuity of any kind was given to the author by Mr. Perry in exchange for my words.

Beautifully put. I concur.

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Brent, how much is a set of plans for the 36' ? What would I get for my money? How much do you charge for consulting? Thanks.

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BS constantly questions how can I be busy when I am on CA so much. For starters I get up around 4am and go right to work, after I check CA. But here you can see I have CA on one monitor while I am deigning Dave's fin and bulk keel on the other computer. I am multi tasking. It let's me take a break from the work. Last break I took a while ago had the result that when I went back and looked at this bulb I thought, "I can do better than that." So now I have another bulb ready to go on the boat. I may even change my mind about that bulb too at some point. If BS can't understand that maybe he should take a look at my output in terms of real boats.

002_zpsig9tb5mi.jpg

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A steel boat makes sense as a cruising boat if it is dirt cheap, as many of them are. I would prefer to be out on a spacious steel boat than cramped in a small beautiful/fast alu/glass sailer or even worse tossing off about an unattainable boat behind a computer somewhere.

For the most common use which boats are put to , spending most of their lives in a marina,and

sailing the odd weekend, and three weeks in summer, not being lived aboard full time, especially not in cold winter weather , stock plastic boats fill the bill just fine, ( which is mostly what they are designed for). For full time cruising as a way of life , steel becomes a far better idea. No deck leaks ,and full spray foam insulation make them exponentially more comfortable and practical.The huge amount of weight one accumulates from years of living aboard full time , make claimed weight savings from other hull materials, an illusion,and overall, largely irrelevant . Full time cruising exponentially increases your odds of bumping into things, compared to boats which rarely get underway. That is simply a statistical fact. Steel has exponentially better odds of surviving such bumps, than plastic ,and even aluminium. The suggestion that a boat need not be strong enough to survive such unforseen events, because they are "not supposed to happen", is the incredible naivety of the armchair expert.

Whether you bump things or don't, having a boat which can survive such incidents, with no serious consequences, drastically reduces the stress and worry about cruising in such a boat, greatly enhancing the pleasure in such cruising.

( pleasure being what it is supposed to be all about.)

 

Having far less time and money in a boat, also reduces the stress and worry in cruising in her, something I have seen far too many overlook, in building their "Perfect dream boat.' A boat which represents too much time and money , a much bigger portion of one's life, becomes a constant worry underway. I have seen many go from their expensive "Perfect" boat ,to something simpler ,smaller and cheaper,and seen their cruising enjoyment go up considerably.

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Brent, how much is a set of plans for the 36' ? What would I get for my money? How much do you charge for consulting? Thanks.

Plans for my 36 are $350. All consulting comes included with the price of plans.

Plans include hull lines, plate shapes, structural ,sail plan, sails, tankage, ballast, rigging , mast, interiors , deck layout, deck detail, bow roller,hatches , mooring bits, chocks , windvane, stability curve , prismatic coeficient , LCB ,etc ,etc, and my book includes , anchor winch ,540 GPD watermaker, engine driven welder and power source for tools, composting head , Lavac type head, inside steering, roller furling, blocks, cabin latches, doors and firring strips, lbs per inch immersion chart,, etc etc.

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I enjoy an exchange of information on well designed and built steel boats.

As my boats have proven to be, over 4 decades, and hundreds of thousands of miles of trouble free cruising,

the ultimate test of "Well designed and built."

Far more so than numbers on a piece of paper.

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Olaf, are you trying to say there is neglible difference between a steel and aluminium Van De Stadt 34? Brent Swain would like to hear you say that louder.

 

In any case, I am not big time boat designer like Jose, but my poor backward bogan pea brain tells me that extra ton is all low. And I would say the extra 25% down low does make a big difference to the behavior if a sailboat.

 

Isn't this one of the reasons so many on cruising anarchy get a hard on every time someone mentions a "steel boat".

 

Listen, you simply don't understand the basics.

 

PANOPE is a Colvin Witch built in aluminium. It has more ballast lower down than a steel Witch to bring it down to its DWL. I'd expect PANOPE to be stiffer and better able to carry sail than the relatively more tender steel hull.

 

On anchor NO DIFFERENCE. The underwater body shape & surface area is identical.

 

I've built a steel Witch. What hull(s) have you built?

 

FKT

 

I have put together over 3 dozen boats , over 4 decades, and single handed across the Pacific in them 9 times, yet from the time you started your first boat , you implied you knew more about steel boat building than I, and that I had it all wrong.

No, one half finished boat does not make you an expert!

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Bob, I've got a lot of respect for you. And it's great to have you on cruising anarchy. Today I'm anchored in Rose Bay, one of your old stomping grounds in Sydney Harbour. You've designed some very pretty boats. You are one off Australia's great exports. Thanks.

 

But for the sake of discussion can you please keep the personal shit with Brent Swain out of this thread? I know he may not be able to but you have nothing to defend. We know you are a legend already. I would love to hear you directly challenge Brents ideas while ignoring his personality. Would also love if the hangers on let you defend your own ideas and did not pile in. You are total bloody legend and you don't need a need a militia at your back.

 

You must remember Sonadora. A very nice chap. And a very nice family. I met them on Lake Superior. I also used to admire his boat long on the hard in the marina in St Paul on the Mississippi River too. He spent years on his boat, one of your designs, encouraged by this forum. But he spent so much time on his computer talking to you he forgot to go out on his boat. You must remember what happened when he eventually took his boat out. After years chatting about it on Cruising Anarchy he found out, on is first daysail on big water, that cruising sailing was not for him. I was on Lake Superior the same day and it was relatively benign. My point is that when we focus on the fluffy stuff too much we lose sight of the actual art of cruising sailing.

 

Can we keep this thread about steel boats. Please?

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Shane:

To your request I'll have to say sorry but with all due respect, no. BS has personally attacked my family and after that the gloves came off and will stay off. You have the prerogative to put me on "ignore" and I think that might work best for you. You can't be annoyed by what you can't read. It's CRUISING ANARCHY. Trying to put people in boxes here does not work. I've been here over ten years now. I think I know how it works. I'll do my best to tone it down a bit for you.

 

I still communicate with Rick SONADORA. He's sailing and enjoying it just fine. His boat looks great.

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The problem with BS, as so many here have pointed out, is not his preference for steel boats, and doing things at a low cost, but his dogmatic insistence that his way is the only way, and his insulting of anyone that disagrees with him. That is a psychological problem, not a legitimate difference of opinion. You get what you give here, there are plenty of discussions here where people politely disagree with each other. BS occasionally has some good ideas but he has turned off so many people with his insulting behavior that most are not willing to listen to him anymore. And he has done that from the get go. I know Bob P. has his detractors here, and that's fine, everyone has their own opinions. Considering his experience and reputation, the fact that Bob shares his ideas here, is willing to accept different opinions and incorporate other's ideas in his work after spending a considerable portion of his career as a renowned boat designer, I think that speaks very highly of him. I am constantly amazed at how patient Bob often is, with the endless questions he gets here, often questioning his decisions because they didn't read the entire thread or just out of ignorance. There are others of Bob's reputation and stature in many fields that are arrogant pricks, something I would never accuse Bob of being. Bob can be a curmudgeon, for sure, but not an arrogant prick.* ;)

 

 

Sounds like an accurate description of Bob Perry, who responds to almost every post I make with an attack, despite his having almost no hands on experience with steel boat building, maintaining , living aboard, or cruising long term in one. The definition of "Arrogant prick."He cant stand me questioning "anything" he does, despite my complimenting some of his decisions.

He has just declared that his attacks have nothing to do with my design work, or my boats, which makes them completely irrelevant,by his own admission, when it comes to his comments on my boats.

Your suggestion is that I should put up with such insulting attacks, and should not be allowed to defend myself ,nor correct the disinformation people with no steel boat experience keep putting out , in order to preserve the illusion of Perry being the last word on something he knows so little about.

Dream on!

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Rantifaran, was unable to quote your question. so I hope you see this response. You asked what we ended up buying.

 

We bought a 13m centre cockpit steel boat in Brisbane. Was made some chap named "Greenwood" but it looks like a Roberts. I have yet to find much wrong with the quality of construction or the design of the boat. Cutter, 1.5m draft, 15 tonne displacement. I think it sold cheap because it was steel and it would have been hard boat to cruise on with it's existing setup. The last owner took it to Cairns - he must have motored the whole way.

 

We stopped out last cruise because we grew out of our very beautiful and sorely missed Pacific Seacraft 34. This boat was about half the price of the PSC34, has the accommodation we need, sails faster in similar conditions, and everything is extraordinarily well laid out. To make it sailable for a couple we added lazy jacks, furlers, rope clutches and led some lines back..

 

I will post pictures soon. I think it is an ugly duckling. Others say it looks OK. Most importantly my wife loves it.

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Calm down Brent. My work speaks for itself as does yours.

 

Just got this photo from a happy owner today. Fine looking boat if I do say so myself.

FD%2035%20at%20dock_zpsv10gyron.jpg

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A fine looking boat. Would love to see more pictures of good steel boats.

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In the 80's, when the steel for a 36 was around $6K ,the alumimium for one was $20K,

a big whack of cruising funds for most cruisers at the time.

Steel welding is far more forgiving for beginners, and far cheaper and easier for back yard builders.

An engine driven alternator lets you do steel welding, anytime any place. Aluminium is a bit more complex and expensive, and far less forgiving.

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Ok, here you go. I did this one with AMAZON up in BC. It has lots of miles on it now.

Diva_sail_zpsc0wbj46g.jpg

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I think I recall the ads for that boat Shane, was she the one with wooden spars and gal rigging?

 

Looked like a real labour of love for the original owner.

 

Nice to know it sails OK

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I still communicate with Rick SONADORA. He's sailing and enjoying it just fine. His boat looks great.

 

Glad to hear that. Is he out cruising yet?

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Shane:

Rick seems to be working a lot. Talks about moving to the PNW but I think the wife likes it where they are. He pops up on FB from time to time. He belongs to my fan club. ( don't laugh please. It was not my idea.But I like it.)

 

Rick lives in an area with a very short sailing season. I don't think he got out till quite late in the season this year,

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One of the original statements for this thread was that steel boats are quieter at anchor than other constructions (or something like that). To that I say BS. Yes, a lighter boat may bob more in a seaway, but if we are talking about sailing around the anchor it has to do with wind age and where it is relative to CLR. Two boats, same displacement, one is a Nonsuch, other a schooner. You tell me how they ride.

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So

 

 

For the record, I don't have a problem with any material. But as an engineer, I'm offended by bad math.

 

Engineers who don't look past their pencils offend me. You are not the only engineer in this thread.

 

Now, tell me, bright spark, what affects a boat most at anchor?

 

Remember, my assertion here is heavier boats behave better at anchor all other factors equal. If I were you I would stop digging soon.

 

So, in your mind, two boats that have a significant difference in weight are equal?

 

Would you like me to point you to a dictionary?

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