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    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
rainbowrunner

Steel Boats

986 posts in this topic

Bugger beating around the bush talking about aluminium boats and steel planes let's have a good old chat about good old fashioned steel cruising sailboats boats. Our current boat is a tank like 43' steel cutter. Much cheaper, stronger, roomier and faster than our old Pacific Seacraft 34. More cruising bang for cruising buck.

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Yet another metal boats thread? I'm not sure Brent can take that without his head exploding.

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Jeez, a couple of minutes ago there were TWO of these threads, one with PICTURE!!

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Not any metal. Steel.

 

you must be new around here.

where are the tits?

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Nope, not a SA Newby, but a bit tired of the aluminium love fest on the so called Metal Boat thread.

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If you don't like the news, make some of your own. Starting a redundant thread doesn't help.

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Nope, not a SA Newby, but a bit tired of the aluminium love fest on the so called Metal Boat thread.

 

Last time I checked aluminium was a metal.

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The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor. Heavier boats feel better at anchor and that's where cruising boats spend 95% of their time.

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Great, another one for the ignore list.

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Great, another one for the ignore list.

IDK...sounds like a BS sock puppet. Could be entertaining, in a village idiot kind of way.

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"The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor."

 

What a quaint observation.

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"The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor."

 

What a quaint observation.

He's def a prospective candidate for a Brent boat...they don't sail, and the reef holds them securely in position.

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Steel yourself for the predictable

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Great, another one for the ignore list.

IDK...sounds like a BS sock puppet. Could be entertaining, in a village idiot kind of way.
XXXX and Bundy Rum means a Queenslander.

 

Think Florida ...

 

To be fair, Queensland is one of the few places where a steel boat makes sense, lots of coral bommies along that coast.

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Will this thread feature a lot of irony?

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Steel yourself for the predictable

 

I dunno - we may hear some unpresidented info.

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Will this thread feature a lot of irony?

 

It will have roughly 99.8% Irony, just like the mild steel being discussed here.

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Forging onwards.

It will be heated, beaten till way past drawn out and quench any enthusiasm in the slack.

Check your temper as you finish.

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I'll be sure to polish up my prose, though I'll probably keep it blue.

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A steel boat makes sense as a cruising boat if it is dirt cheap, as many of them are. I would prefer to be out on a spacious steel boat than cramped in a small beautiful/fast alu/glass sailer or even worse tossing off about an unattainable boat behind a computer somewhere.

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What a quaint observation.

What a conceited comment.

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A steel boat makes sense as a cruising boat if it is dirt cheap, as many of them are. I would prefer to be out on a spacious steel boat than cramped in a small beautiful/fast alu/glass sailer or even worse tossing off about an unattainable boat behind a computer somewhere.

 

I'd prefer for you to be out on a spacious steel boat too. Please. Go.

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What a quaint observation.

What a conceited comment.

You will get used to it, this isn't PC Anarchy

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The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor. Heavier boats feel better at anchor and that's where cruising boats spend 95% of their time.

What??? A boat's material has nothing to do with how it behaves at anchor. Hull shape, top hamper, ballast, displacement, CG, scope, and more, yes. Hull material, no.

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The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor. Heavier boats feel better at anchor and that's where cruising boats spend 95% of their time.

What??? A boat's material has nothing to do with how it behaves at anchor. Hull shape, top hamper, ballast, displacement, CG, scope, and more, yes. Hull material, no.

Sure it does. All other factors kept constant the heavier boat will behave better at anchor.

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What a quaint observation.

What a conceited comment.
You will get used to it, this isn't PC Anarchy
"PC anarchy" would be a bit of an oxymoron, wouldn't it?

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Great, another one for the ignore list.

IDK...sounds like a BS sock puppet. Could be entertaining, in a village idiot kind of way.
XXXX and Bundy Rum means a Queenslander.

 

Think Florida ...

 

To be fair, Queensland is one of the few places where a steel boat makes sense, lots of coral bommies along that coast.

There is also a long way between anchorage's in some areas, and a need to move at a decent pace to get away from a cyclone, even sail upwind sometimes. While there are steel cruisers that move along, most are bloody slow.

I would say qld is the home of the cruising multi, shallow draft is a better way than bouncing steel off the reef.

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The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor. Heavier boats feel better at anchor and that's where cruising boats spend 95% of their time.

What??? A boat's material has nothing to do with how it behaves at anchor. Hull shape, top hamper, ballast, displacement, CG, scope, and more, yes. Hull material, no.

Sure it does. All other factors kept constant the heavier boat will behave better at anchor.

You clearly do not understand displacement. You can have 2 boats of exactly the same shape and displcement with one built of steel and the other built of aluminum and they will both float at the same waterline, and if the ballast in each is located properly they can have the same CG. The steel boat will have heavier structure and the aluminum one will have lighter structure so in order to float at the same WL the aluminum one will require more ballast. If the steel boat's ballast is at z the aluminum boat's ballast being heavier can be located at z + some number to equal the CG of the steel boat. Of course most designers might opt to use the same ballast position of the steel one in the aluminum one in order to get better stability and more sail carrying power in the aluminum boat.

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Aluminium hulls weigh around 30% less than steel.

 

The hull weight is one third or less the weight of a completed boat.

 

So an aluminium hulled boat isn't going to be much lighter than a steel hulled boat, if they are the same design.

 

Sure some steel boats are heavy tubs, but that isn't just because they are steel.

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Our new friend's boat just broke its mooring...

6135071750_83a3cc49fe_b.jpg

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The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor. Heavier boats feel better at anchor and that's where cruising boats spend 95% of their time.

What??? A boat's material has nothing to do with how it behaves at anchor. Hull shape, top hamper, ballast, displacement, CG, scope, and more, yes. Hull material, no.
Sure it does. All other factors kept constant the heavier boat will behave better at anchor.
You clearly do not understand displacement.
Umm... you clearly do not understand physics... the mass of steel is three times greater than aluminium. Do I need to explain to you why aluminium anchors are uncommon? Same principle applies when all other factors equal a steel boat behaves better than aluminium at anchor.

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The aluminium boats I've seen sail around too much on anchor. Heavier boats feel better at anchor and that's where cruising boats spend 95% of their time.

What??? A boat's material has nothing to do with how it behaves at anchor. Hull shape, top hamper, ballast, displacement, CG, scope, and more, yes. Hull material, no.
Sure it does. All other factors kept constant the heavier boat will behave better at anchor.
You clearly do not understand displacement.
Umm... you clearly do not understand physics... the mass of steel is three times greater than aluminium. Do I need to explain to you why aluminium anchors are uncommon? Same principle applies when all other factors equal a steel boat behaves better than aluminium at anchor.
My employer will be upset when I tell him I didn't design our boats (FRP, steel and aluminum) correctly for the past 30+ years. Try harder Dennis.

 

Edit: I think you are focused too closely on the particular structural material and not the overall shape, center of gravity and total displacement of the boat. And yes I understand the difference in weight of the two materials (sg of AL = 2.6 plus or minus depending on the alloy and sg of steel is 7.8).

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Does Brent have a new sock?

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Don't think so, he has a bit of qld bogan in his text, different style of arrogance too

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Does Brent have a new sock?

Already been suggested. Brent has been taking a beating on here. I believe he had created several sock puppets on the other message forums when he was taking a beating there. It's the same spouting of ignorant bullshit.

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While there are steel cruisers that move along, most are bloody slow.

I would say qld is the home of the cruising multi, shallow draft is a better way...

Agreed. If you've got a lot of $$$ a big cat is the best option.

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... for the past 30+ years. Try harder Dennis

Try reading my comments more closely Mr Big Shot Boat Designer. I never mentioned displacement. I said all other factors equal a steel boat behave better at anchor than a aluminium boat. Because it is heavier. All other factors being equal means same design, hull shape etc etc etc etc.

 

I think you need an example. I spent several months on the east coast of the US in the company of an aluminium Van De Stadt 34. Fast boat but it danced around at anchor like a young filly. Made me dizzy to watch. Was a pain in tight anchorages because it didn't swing with the other boats.

 

Now later I came upon a steel Van De Stadt 34. I never saw it sail but I saw it at anchor. Totally different kettle of fish.

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Don't think so, he has a bit of qld bogan in his text, different style of arrogance too

Classy. Are you a GPS old boy or otherwise better than a bogan? From the north side of the river or something? Inherit something off Mummy and Daddy?

 

No I'm not arrogant I'm just annoyed at the unnecessary bullying of Brent Swain that goes on here. I've been watching it for years.

 

Kind of pathetic to watch grown men getting their jollies demeaning someone who is obviously passionate fanatic. Fanatics are easy targets.

 

I'd prefer to share this steel boat thread with Brent Swain and other misguided steel boat owners than the pompous arrogant pricks I am thoroughly tired of reading in other threads.

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Don't think so, he has a bit of qld bogan in his text, different style of arrogance too

 

 

No I'm not arrogant I'm just annoyed at the unnecessary bullying of Brent Swain that goes on here. I've been watching it for years.

 

Kind of pathetic to watch grown men getting their jollies demeaning someone who is obviously passionate fanatic. Fanatics are easy targets.

 

 

 

Oh, so BS is the VICTIM of bullying???

 

You might want to swing your compass and align your radar a bit. In other words, pull your head out of your ass and get real.

 

You can find the shitfights he instigates on all corners of the Internet.

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Yeah whatever. Got your jollies yet? If not you win. You like winning don't you?

 

I'd prefer to talk Jotamastic 90.

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Don't think so, he has a bit of qld bogan in his text, different style of arrogance too

Classy. Are you a GPS old boy or otherwise better than a bogan? From the north side of the river or something? Inherit something off Mummy and Daddy?

 

No I'm not arrogant I'm just annoyed at the unnecessary bullying of Brent Swain that goes on here. I've been watching it for years.

 

Kind of pathetic to watch grown men getting their jollies demeaning someone who is obviously passionate fanatic. Fanatics are easy targets.

 

I'd prefer to share this steel boat thread with Brent Swain and other misguided steel boat owners than the pompous arrogant pricks I am thoroughly tired of reading in other threads.

 

 

What's a GPS? Just curious. I know what a JAFA is.

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Olaf, are you trying to say there is neglible difference between a steel and aluminium Van De Stadt 34? Brent Swain would like to hear you say that louder.

 

In any case, I am not big time boat designer like Jose, but my poor backward bogan pea brain tells me that extra ton is all low. And I would say the extra 25% down low does make a big difference to the behavior if a sailboat.

 

Isn't this one of the reasons so many on cruising anarchy get a hard on every time someone mentions a "steel boat".

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Don't think so, he has a bit of qld bogan in his text, different style of arrogance too

Classy. Are you a GPS old boy or otherwise better than a bogan? From the north side of the river or something? Inherit something off Mummy and Daddy?

 

No I'm not arrogant I'm just annoyed at the unnecessary bullying of Brent Swain that goes on here. I've been watching it for years.

 

Kind of pathetic to watch grown men getting their jollies demeaning someone who is obviously passionate fanatic. Fanatics are easy targets.

 

I'd prefer to share this steel boat thread with Brent Swain and other misguided steel boat owners than the pompous arrogant pricks I am thoroughly tired of reading in other threads.

What's a GPS? Just curious. I know what a JAFA is.

I think GPS is a wanky private school. Can't remember which one, and the river I am north of is a long way from the one Shane is thinking of.

Shane, read your first post again dickhead and tell me it doesn't reek of Australian slang in a way that a Canadian (IE Brent) would struggle to emulate.

I disagree that multis are only for deep pockets. There are some pretty cool trimarans that have come through my area in the last few years, all looking cheap to buy and run. There is a guy in a little green wharram who is living the dream. There are older, ugly looking cats going for reasonable prices. I don't see the advantage for steel monos around here

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What's a GPS? Just curious. I know what a JAFA is.

Literally it means "Greater Public School". But it really is a rich private school.

 

In Australia, private school kids especially, but also other elitists like to demean working class people as "bogans" (somewhere between "trailer trash" or "redneck").

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Olaf, are you trying to say there is neglible difference between a steel and aluminium Van De Stadt 34? Brent Swain would like to hear you say that louder.

In any case, I am not big time boat designer like Jose, but my poor backward bogan pea brain tells me that extra ton is all low. And I would say the extra 25% down low does make a big difference to the behavior if a sailboat.

Isn't this one of the reasons so many on cruising anarchy get a hard on every time someone mentions a "steel boat".

According to the VDS site the Alu 34 has 200kg more ballast than the steel one.

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There are some pretty cool trimarans that have come through my area in the last few years, all looking cheap to buy and run. There is a guy in a little green wharram who is living the dream. There are older, ugly looking cats going for reasonable prices. I don't see the advantage for steel monos around here

Finally, some steel boat talk.

 

Yeah, I agree there are some cool trimarans. My first racing experiences were on a home built tri in Port Moresby. A absolute dog upwind but when the wind dropped we ate em for breakfast.

 

But my wife and I looked for a year from Hobart to Cooktown and were only able to find a steelie in our price, accommodation and speed range.

 

The truth is I didn't want a steel boat. My wife was insistent. Despite misgivings I've grown to appreciate the damn thing.

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what i do understand is that us northerners are either prepping our boats for next season or are in other ways currently not out sailing like due to it beeing fucking cold (except for Dylan, who needs it like that)

 

but why is an Aussie starting a shitfight on the internet in the middle of Australian summer instead of beeing out on the water?

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According to the VDS site the Alu 34 has 200kg more ballast than the steel one.

Yes, of course it does, rocket scientist.

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but why is an Aussie starting a shitfight on the internet in the middle of Australian summer instead of beeing out on the water?

Because a good steel boat is rocking me to sleep on these fine summer nights. Make's me less tolerant of the the steel boat smack.

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you see, that is where you are mistaken.

we don't smack boats because of their material.

we do smack boats because they are fugly or zombies or because someone with a lot of determination but zero skill decided to weld something together to pound on reefs with.

we are profoundly offended by both, shoddy craftmanship and seamanship.

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There are some pretty cool trimarans that have come through my area in the last few years, all looking cheap to buy and run. There is a guy in a little green wharram who is living the dream. There are older, ugly looking cats going for reasonable prices. I don't see the advantage for steel monos around here

Finally, some steel boat talk.

 

Yeah, I agree there are some cool trimarans. My first racing experiences were on a home built tri in Port Moresby. A absolute dog upwind but when the wind dropped we ate em for breakfast.

 

But my wife and I looked for a year from Hobart to Cooktown and were only able to find a steelie in our price, accommodation and speed range.

 

The truth is I didn't want a steel boat. My wife was insistent. Despite misgivings I've grown to appreciate the damn thing.

What did you buy? There are a few gems out there.

Most steel boats I see come on the market seem to have had the touch of the diy dreamer to either the rig or interior.

Many home built or finished, and you can usually tell where they have diverged from the original Roberts plans

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I think steel is a great material for a cruising boat.

 

If my boat were made of steel instead of aluminum, I would love it just as much.

 

I think Brent's boats and his DIY philosophy are just fine.

 

I REALLY wish Brent's on-line personality was less abrasive.

 

Steve

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I got lost at the phrase "all things being equal"

 

So, two boats of identical design, except one is made of aluminum and one steel. Both floating on their lines.

 

This means they have the same displacement. You know, the weight of the boat. So the comment about the heavier one behaving differently is wrong.

 

Or maybe the suggestion is that the steel one IS heavier, and therefore sits lower and has less windage. That would not be my definition of "equal"

 

Now, how would they both float on the same waterline? The aluminum one has more ballast at the bottom of the keel. You know, righting moment.

 

We like righting moment, it means more sail carrying, more pointing, better sailing, and less rocking.

 

 

For the record, I don't have a problem with any material. But as an engineer, I'm offended by bad math.

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Olaf, are you trying to say there is neglible difference between a steel and aluminium Van De Stadt 34? Brent Swain would like to hear you say that louder.

 

In any case, I am not big time boat designer like Jose, but my poor backward bogan pea brain tells me that extra ton is all low. And I would say the extra 25% down low does make a big difference to the behavior if a sailboat.

 

Isn't this one of the reasons so many on cruising anarchy get a hard on every time someone mentions a "steel boat".

It's only down low relative to the mast, it's actually quite high relative to the center of gravity (due to the ballast underwater) so it hurts sailing performance and leads to more motion at anchor, not less, compared to an aluminum or plastic boat of EQUAL DISPLACEMENT.

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I think steel is a great material for a cruising boat.

 

If my boat were made of steel instead of aluminum, I would love it just as much.

 

I think Brent's boats and his DIY philosophy are just fine.

 

I REALLY wish Brent's on-line personality was less abrasive.

 

Steve

^^ agreed.

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I got lost at the phrase "all things being equal"

 

So, two boats of identical design, except one is made of aluminum and one steel. Both floating on their lines.

 

This means they have the same displacement. You know, the weight of the boat. So the comment about the heavier one behaving differently is wrong.

 

Or maybe the suggestion is that the steel one IS heavier, and therefore sits lower and has less windage. That would not be my definition of "equal"

 

Now, how would they both float on the same waterline? The aluminum one has more ballast at the bottom of the keel. You know, righting moment.

 

We like righting moment, it means more sail carrying, more pointing, better sailing, and less rocking.

 

 

For the record, I don't have a problem with any material. But as an engineer, I'm offended by bad math.

 

 

Using the Van de Stadt boats as an example, they have different sets of lines to accommodate the difference in displacement.

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I think steel is a great material for a cruising boat.

 

If my boat were made of steel instead of aluminum, I would love it just as much.

 

I think Brent's boats and his DIY philosophy are just fine.

 

I REALLY wish Brent's on-line personality was less abrasive.

 

Steve

^^ agreed.

 

Plus 3, just replace aluminum with fiberglass for me and add that I equally wish the Brent haters were less abrasive and ignorant but it will be what it will be.

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No I'm not arrogant I'm just annoyed at the unnecessary bullying of Brent Swain that goes on here. I've been watching it for years.

 

Have you noticed how many sites have permanently banned Brent?

 

His wounds are entirely self inflicted.

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Olaf, are you trying to say there is neglible difference between a steel and aluminium Van De Stadt 34? Brent Swain would like to hear you say that louder.

 

In any case, I am not big time boat designer like Jose, but my poor backward bogan pea brain tells me that extra ton is all low. And I would say the extra 25% down low does make a big difference to the behavior if a sailboat.

 

Isn't this one of the reasons so many on cruising anarchy get a hard on every time someone mentions a "steel boat".

 

The extra weight of a steel boat is NOT all low - quite the contrary. Building with a heavier material means that the extra weight is distributed all over - heavier decks, heavier cabin house, heavier topsides.

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Every boat is a compromise unless you are a multi millionaire and even then there are compromises, there is no such thing as the ideal boat and we all have our individual preferences. I love wooden boats, partly because my first experience was with a wooden boat. To me, the sanding, painting and varnishing, etc. were a major part of the pleasure, and nothing quite looks, feels, or smells like a wooden boat. Now that I am in my 60s, if I were in a position to own a boat I would go with CF, aluminum, or GRP because I just don't have the energy and physical flexibility necessary for the non-stop maintenance of a wooden boat, that I had years ago. I certainly understand why many sailors shudder at the thought of owning a wooden boat.

 

The problem with BS, as so many here have pointed out, is not his preference for steel boats, and doing things at a low cost, but his dogmatic insistence that his way is the only way, and his insulting of anyone that disagrees with him. That is a psychological problem, not a legitimate difference of opinion. You get what you give here, there are plenty of discussions here where people politely disagree with each other. BS occasionally has some good ideas but he has turned off so many people with his insulting behavior that most are not willing to listen to him anymore. And he has done that from the get go. I know Bob P. has his detractors here, and that's fine, everyone has their own opinions. Considering his experience and reputation, the fact that Bob shares his ideas here, is willing to accept different opinions and incorporate other's ideas in his work after spending a considerable portion of his career as a renowned boat designer, I think that speaks very highly of him. I am constantly amazed at how patient Bob often is, with the endless questions he gets here, often questioning his decisions because they didn't read the entire thread or just out of ignorance. There are others of Bob's reputation and stature in many fields that are arrogant pricks, something I would never accuse Bob of being. Bob can be a curmudgeon, for sure, but not an arrogant prick.* ;)

 

 

 

*DISCLAIMER: These are my original thoughts opinions and no consideration, renumeration, financial compensation or gratuity of any kind was given to the author by Mr. Perry in exchange for my words.

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The extra weight of a steel boat is NOT all low - quite the contrary. Building with a heavier material means that the extra weight is distributed all over - heavier decks, heavier cabin house, heavier topsides.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely true with my steel boat.

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Every boat is a compromise unless you are a multi millionaire and even then there are compromises, there is no such thing as the ideal boat and we all have our individual preferences. I love wooden boats, partly because my first experience was with a wooden boat. To me, the sanding, painting and varnishing, etc. were a major part of the pleasure, and nothing quite looks, feels, or smells like a wooden boat. Now that I am in my 60s, if I were in a position to own a boat I would go with CF, aluminum, or GRP because I just don't have the energy and physical flexibility necessary for the non-stop maintenance of a wooden boat, that I had years ago. I certainly understand why many sailors shudder at the thought of owning a wooden boat.

 

The problem with BS, as so many here have pointed out, is not his preference for steel boats, and doing things at a low cost, but his dogmatic insistence that his way is the only way, and his insulting of anyone that disagrees with him. That is a psychological problem, not a legitimate difference of opinion. You get what you give here, there are plenty of discussions here where people politely disagree with each other. BS occasionally has some good ideas but he has turned off so many people with his insulting behavior that most are not willing to listen to him anymore. And he has done that from the get go. I know Bob P. has his detractors here, and that's fine, everyone has their own opinions. Considering his experience and reputation, the fact that Bob shares his ideas here, is willing to accept different opinions and incorporate other's ideas in his work after spending a considerable portion of his career as a renowned boat designer, I think that speaks very highly of him. I am constantly amazed at how patient Bob often is, with the endless questions he gets here, often questioning his decisions because they didn't read the entire thread or just out of ignorance. There are others of Bob's reputation and stature in many fields that are arrogant pricks, something I would never accuse Bob of being. Bob can be a curmudgeon, for sure, but not an arrogant prick.* ;)

 

 

 

*DISCLAIMER: These are my original thoughts opinions and no consideration, renumeration, financial compensation or gratuity of any kind was given to the author by Mr. Perry in exchange for my words.

Exactly.

 

BS may have some good ideas, but his attitude and lack of engineering or design skills make them impossible to listen to. Ultimately, it's not worth the trouble to find the gems buried in a mountain of bullshit.

 

 

And my own disclaimer: I own a boat designed by BP, and I really like it. I also like that I get to tell him that. And even if I didn't like it, I believe he'd take that with grace and be willing to work on it.

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For the record, I don't have a problem with any material. But as an engineer, I'm offended by bad math.

 

Engineers who don't look past their pencils offend me. You are not the only engineer in this thread.

 

Now, tell me, bright spark, what affects a boat most at anchor?

 

Remember, my assertion here is heavier boats behave better at anchor all other factors equal. If I were you I would stop digging soon.

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The extra weight of a steel boat is NOT all low - quite the contrary. Building with a heavier material means that the extra weight is distributed all over - heavier decks, heavier cabin house, heavier topsides.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely true with my steel boat.

 

 

That's an ambiguous statement. Are you saying that your steel boat is "heavier decks, heavier cabin house, heavier topsides" or not?

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I think steel is a great material for a cruising boat.

 

If my boat were made of steel instead of aluminum, I would love it just as much.

 

I think Brent's boats and his DIY philosophy are just fine.

 

I REALLY wish Brent's on-line personality was less abrasive.

 

Steve

 

Yes, absolutely. I just get a little sick to my stomach when I see everyone piling in on him. Seems unnecessary.

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Don't think so, he has a bit of qld bogan in his text, different style of arrogance too

Classy. Are you a GPS old boy or otherwise better than a bogan? From the north side of the river or something? Inherit something off Mummy and Daddy?

 

No I'm not arrogant I'm just annoyed at the unnecessary bullying of Brent Swain that goes on here. I've been watching it for years.

 

Kind of pathetic to watch grown men getting their jollies demeaning someone who is obviously passionate fanatic. Fanatics are easy targets.

 

I'd prefer to share this steel boat thread with Brent Swain and other misguided steel boat owners than the pompous arrogant pricks I am thoroughly tired of reading in other threads.

 

 

Sorry, have to jump in here.

 

Brent Swain gets a bashing because he's wilfully ignorant, a proven fantasist and liar, plus he's an absolutely shit welder and all round craftsman. He's gotten a bashing on every forum he's ever been on for exactly the same reasons.

 

FWIW both myself and Mike Johns own steel boats.

 

FKT

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I have read hundreds of threads on this site. Unfortunately this thread seems to have been started by a troll, and if not that, then it was started by a close-minded, argumentative ass-hat.

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Olaf, are you trying to say there is neglible difference between a steel and aluminium Van De Stadt 34? Brent Swain would like to hear you say that louder.

 

In any case, I am not big time boat designer like Jose, but my poor backward bogan pea brain tells me that extra ton is all low. And I would say the extra 25% down low does make a big difference to the behavior if a sailboat.

 

Isn't this one of the reasons so many on cruising anarchy get a hard on every time someone mentions a "steel boat".

 

Listen, you simply don't understand the basics.

 

PANOPE is a Colvin Witch built in aluminium. It has more ballast lower down than a steel Witch to bring it down to its DWL. I'd expect PANOPE to be stiffer and better able to carry sail than the relatively more tender steel hull.

 

On anchor NO DIFFERENCE. The underwater body shape & surface area is identical.

 

I've built a steel Witch. What hull(s) have you built?

 

FKT

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I enjoy an exchange of information on well designed and built steel boats.

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For the record, I don't have a problem with any material. But as an engineer, I'm offended by bad math.

 

Engineers who don't look past their pencils offend me. You are not the only engineer in this thread.

 

Now, tell me, bright spark, what affects a boat most at anchor?

 

Remember, my assertion here is heavier boats behave better at anchor all other factors equal. If I were you I would stop digging soon.

 

 

I'll bet my fiberglass boat lays at anchor better then your steel boat. :)

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Every boat is a compromise unless you are a multi millionaire and even then there are compromises, there is no such thing as the ideal boat and we all have our individual preferences. I love wooden boats, partly because my first experience was with a wooden boat. To me, the sanding, painting and varnishing, etc. were a major part of the pleasure, and nothing quite looks, feels, or smells like a wooden boat. Now that I am in my 60s, if I were in a position to own a boat I would go with CF, aluminum, or GRP because I just don't have the energy and physical flexibility necessary for the non-stop maintenance of a wooden boat, that I had years ago. I certainly understand why many sailors shudder at the thought of owning a wooden boat.

 

The problem with BS, as so many here have pointed out, is not his preference for steel boats, and doing things at a low cost, but his dogmatic insistence that his way is the only way, and his insulting of anyone that disagrees with him. That is a psychological problem, not a legitimate difference of opinion. You get what you give here, there are plenty of discussions here where people politely disagree with each other. BS occasionally has some good ideas but he has turned off so many people with his insulting behavior that most are not willing to listen to him anymore. And he has done that from the get go. I know Bob P. has his detractors here, and that's fine, everyone has their own opinions. Considering his experience and reputation, the fact that Bob shares his ideas here, is willing to accept different opinions and incorporate other's ideas in his work after spending a considerable portion of his career as a renowned boat designer, I think that speaks very highly of him. I am constantly amazed at how patient Bob often is, with the endless questions he gets here, often questioning his decisions because they didn't read the entire thread or just out of ignorance. There are others of Bob's reputation and stature in many fields that are arrogant pricks, something I would never accuse Bob of being. Bob can be a curmudgeon, for sure, but not an arrogant prick.* ;)

 

 

 

*DISCLAIMER: These are my original thoughts opinions and no consideration, renumeration, financial compensation or gratuity of any kind was given to the author by Mr. Perry in exchange for my words.

Beautifully put. I concur.

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Brent, how much is a set of plans for the 36' ? What would I get for my money? How much do you charge for consulting? Thanks.

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BS constantly questions how can I be busy when I am on CA so much. For starters I get up around 4am and go right to work, after I check CA. But here you can see I have CA on one monitor while I am deigning Dave's fin and bulk keel on the other computer. I am multi tasking. It let's me take a break from the work. Last break I took a while ago had the result that when I went back and looked at this bulb I thought, "I can do better than that." So now I have another bulb ready to go on the boat. I may even change my mind about that bulb too at some point. If BS can't understand that maybe he should take a look at my output in terms of real boats.

002_zpsig9tb5mi.jpg

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Bob, I've got a lot of respect for you. And it's great to have you on cruising anarchy. Today I'm anchored in Rose Bay, one of your old stomping grounds in Sydney Harbour. You've designed some very pretty boats. You are one off Australia's great exports. Thanks.

 

But for the sake of discussion can you please keep the personal shit with Brent Swain out of this thread? I know he may not be able to but you have nothing to defend. We know you are a legend already. I would love to hear you directly challenge Brents ideas while ignoring his personality. Would also love if the hangers on let you defend your own ideas and did not pile in. You are total bloody legend and you don't need a need a militia at your back.

 

You must remember Sonadora. A very nice chap. And a very nice family. I met them on Lake Superior. I also used to admire his boat long on the hard in the marina in St Paul on the Mississippi River too. He spent years on his boat, one of your designs, encouraged by this forum. But he spent so much time on his computer talking to you he forgot to go out on his boat. You must remember what happened when he eventually took his boat out. After years chatting about it on Cruising Anarchy he found out, on is first daysail on big water, that cruising sailing was not for him. I was on Lake Superior the same day and it was relatively benign. My point is that when we focus on the fluffy stuff too much we lose sight of the actual art of cruising sailing.

 

Can we keep this thread about steel boats. Please?

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Shane:

To your request I'll have to say sorry but with all due respect, no. BS has personally attacked my family and after that the gloves came off and will stay off. You have the prerogative to put me on "ignore" and I think that might work best for you. You can't be annoyed by what you can't read. It's CRUISING ANARCHY. Trying to put people in boxes here does not work. I've been here over ten years now. I think I know how it works. I'll do my best to tone it down a bit for you.

 

I still communicate with Rick SONADORA. He's sailing and enjoying it just fine. His boat looks great.

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Rantifaran, was unable to quote your question. so I hope you see this response. You asked what we ended up buying.

 

We bought a 13m centre cockpit steel boat in Brisbane. Was made some chap named "Greenwood" but it looks like a Roberts. I have yet to find much wrong with the quality of construction or the design of the boat. Cutter, 1.5m draft, 15 tonne displacement. I think it sold cheap because it was steel and it would have been hard boat to cruise on with it's existing setup. The last owner took it to Cairns - he must have motored the whole way.

 

We stopped out last cruise because we grew out of our very beautiful and sorely missed Pacific Seacraft 34. This boat was about half the price of the PSC34, has the accommodation we need, sails faster in similar conditions, and everything is extraordinarily well laid out. To make it sailable for a couple we added lazy jacks, furlers, rope clutches and led some lines back..

 

I will post pictures soon. I think it is an ugly duckling. Others say it looks OK. Most importantly my wife loves it.

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Calm down Brent. My work speaks for itself as does yours.

 

Just got this photo from a happy owner today. Fine looking boat if I do say so myself.

FD%2035%20at%20dock_zpsv10gyron.jpg

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A fine looking boat. Would love to see more pictures of good steel boats.

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Ok, here you go. I did this one with AMAZON up in BC. It has lots of miles on it now.

Diva_sail_zpsc0wbj46g.jpg

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I think I recall the ads for that boat Shane, was she the one with wooden spars and gal rigging?

 

Looked like a real labour of love for the original owner.

 

Nice to know it sails OK

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I still communicate with Rick SONADORA. He's sailing and enjoying it just fine. His boat looks great.

 

Glad to hear that. Is he out cruising yet?

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Shane:

Rick seems to be working a lot. Talks about moving to the PNW but I think the wife likes it where they are. He pops up on FB from time to time. He belongs to my fan club. ( don't laugh please. It was not my idea.But I like it.)

 

Rick lives in an area with a very short sailing season. I don't think he got out till quite late in the season this year,

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One of the original statements for this thread was that steel boats are quieter at anchor than other constructions (or something like that). To that I say BS. Yes, a lighter boat may bob more in a seaway, but if we are talking about sailing around the anchor it has to do with wind age and where it is relative to CLR. Two boats, same displacement, one is a Nonsuch, other a schooner. You tell me how they ride.

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So

 

 

For the record, I don't have a problem with any material. But as an engineer, I'm offended by bad math.

 

Engineers who don't look past their pencils offend me. You are not the only engineer in this thread.

 

Now, tell me, bright spark, what affects a boat most at anchor?

 

Remember, my assertion here is heavier boats behave better at anchor all other factors equal. If I were you I would stop digging soon.

 

So, in your mind, two boats that have a significant difference in weight are equal?

 

Would you like me to point you to a dictionary?

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I think I recall the ads for that boat Shane, was she the one with wooden spars and gal rigging?

 

Looked like a real labour of love for the original owner.

 

Nice to know it sails OK

 

That's the one. No longer has gal rigging. For the time being it still has wooden spars. You are right, it was a labor of love for the builder and subsequent owners didn't screw it up too much. We have a photo album of the construction and the first family cruise. It's not ideal, but we are not loaded either so it works.

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Pretty hard to have two boats of different materials with "all other factors equal" Maybe not impossible but damn hard. Lots of variables involved with how a boat behaves at anchor. I'd say windage was the biggest and then initial stability.

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Shane:

Rick seems to be working a lot. Talks about moving to the PNW but I think the wife likes it where they are. He pops up on FB from time to time. He belongs to my fan club. ( don't laugh please. It was not my idea.But I like it.)

 

Rick lives in an area with a very short sailing season. I don't think he got out till quite late in the season this year,

 

Super nice guy. Minnesota can be hard to leave. Lake Superior is one of the most amazing bodies of water I have sailed on. He is lucky to have his boat there.

 

To keep this thread on topic, Lake Superior would be great for a steel boat because corrosion it is freshwater, cold and corrosion is minimal.

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Pretty hard to have two boats of different materials with "all other factors equal" Maybe not impossible but damn hard. Lots of variables involved with how a boat behaves at anchor. I'd say windage was the biggest and then initial stability.

 

The smart one on this thread got my point. It's windage that affects a boat the most at anchor. There are rolly anchorages but cruisers tend not to spend a lot of time in them.

 

Back to my Van De Stadt 34 example. The heavier steel version has almost the same windage but it is going to react slower to changes in wind direction and subsequently will behave better at anchor. For a cruiser this is a real plus.

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So, in your mind, two boats that have a significant difference in weight are equal?

Would you like me to point you to a dictionary?

 

Would you like me to point you to your reading glasses? Weight was the only variable in my equation.

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Panope, (Aluminum, Black Hull, pre-pilot house era). She is rafted to an identically shaped STEEL hulled sistership (green hull).

 

Panope had nearly a ton more ballast, a heavier interior, and more equipment. She is heavier, sitting lower in the water and has less windage. I am quite certain that she would lie quieter at anchor by some un-measurable amount.

 

Steve

 

7Mf8hSW.jpg

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For the record, I don't have a problem with any material. But as an engineer, I'm offended by bad math.

 

Engineers who don't look past their pencils offend me. You are not the only engineer in this thread.

 

Now, tell me, bright spark, what affects a boat most at anchor?

 

Remember, my assertion here is heavier boats behave better at anchor all other factors equal. If I were you I would stop digging soon.

 

 

BS constantly questions how can I be busy when I am on CA so much. For starters I get up around 4am and go right to work, after I check CA. But here you can see I have CA on one monitor while I am deigning Dave's fin and bulk keel on the other computer. I am multi tasking. It let's me take a break from the work. Last break I took a while ago had the result that when I went back and looked at this bulb I thought, "I can do better than that." So now I have another bulb ready to go on the boat. I may even change my mind about that bulb too at some point. If BS can't understand that maybe he should take a look at my output in terms of real boats.

002_zpsig9tb5mi.jpg

 

The coffee shop or library would probably object to him setting up two or three screens like that.

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"the smart one" Well fuck me. I'll enjoy the rest of my night with that.

 

And oh, Shane: I was not a Rose Bay kid. I was an Ashfield kid, sitting on the gutter floating sticks down the drain and pretending they were boats.

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