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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
zillafreak

AC50 Boat Porn

416 posts in this topic

AC 50's should be rolling out soon. Hopefully a thread will emerge for us boat porn addicts to follow without searching through all the team threads. Maybe this thread will suffice. I haven't been following this AC very closely because so far it has been boring as shit when compared to the 72's and the last AC. IMO One-Design sucks. Maybe higher speed little boats foiling all the way round will be better, lets see...

 

 

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Unfortunately the only porn involved is going to be the paint scheme. Everything else (except for the foils, of course) will look identical. I'm having more fun looking at the 12 meter facebook page(s) right now and the various designs from 1987 than I am anticipating the AC50s. Huge loss that this is not a design contest between nations anymore. I digress.

post-8657-0-58797100-1484140116_thumb.jpg

post-8657-0-44890000-1484140153_thumb.jpg

post-8657-0-37339700-1484140166_thumb.jpg

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Unfortunately the only porn involved is going to be the paint scheme. Everything else (except for the foils, of course) will look identical. I'm having more fun looking at the 12 meter facebook page(s) right now and the various designs from 1987 than I am anticipating the AC50s. Huge loss that this is not a design contest between nations anymore. I digress.

The only really noticeable differences will be the paint jobs and they will mostly be stickers anyway .

 

Of course there will be those that will get off on a two degree difference in foil angle so there is that .

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Every single thread in this forum has to bitch about how much things were better way back when. No wonder the AC forum has about the same reputation as PA.

 

There wasn't a way to jam that random assemblage of 12M pics into one of the 2000 other threads discussing how shitty this regatta is?

 

You're all just the worst kind of cynical bastards. The only thing you enjoy more than the "good old days" is complaining constantly about how bad things are.

 

Now I remember why I stopped visiting.

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Unfortunately the only porn involved is going to be the paint scheme. Everything else (except for the foils, of course) will look identical. I'm having more fun looking at the 12 meter facebook page(s) right now and the various designs from 1987 than I am anticipating the AC50s. Huge loss that this is not a design contest between nations anymore. I digress.

Is there one thing about those distorted, swollen-belly shapes that says "race boat" or "state of the art" even in 1987? Dang those things were and still are fugly.

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Every single thread in this forum has to bitch about how much things were better way back when. No wonder the AC forum has about the same reputation as PA.

 

There wasn't a way to jam that random assemblage of 12M pics into one of the 2000 other threads discussing how shitty this regatta is?

 

You're all just the worst kind of cynical bastards. The only thing you enjoy more than the "good old days" is complaining constantly about how bad things are.

 

Now I remember why I stopped visiting.

 

toddlers.jpg

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Unfortunately the only porn involved is going to be the paint scheme. Everything else (except for the foils, of course) will look identical. I'm having more fun looking at the 12 meter facebook page(s) right now and the various designs from 1987 than I am anticipating the AC50s. Huge loss that this is not a design contest between nations anymore. I digress.

The only really noticeable differences will be the paint jobs and they will mostly be stickers anyway .

 

Of course there will be those that will get off on a two degree difference in foil angle so there is that .

 

 

 

LOL. Doug Lord will be all over that.

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Every single thread in this forum has to bitch about how much things were better way back when. No wonder the AC forum has about the same reputation as PA.

 

There wasn't a way to jam that random assemblage of 12M pics into one of the 2000 other threads discussing how shitty this regatta is?

 

You're all just the worst kind of cynical bastards. The only thing you enjoy more than the "good old days" is complaining constantly about how bad things are.

 

Now I remember why I stopped visiting.

Hey, I'm not the one who ruined the AC. As weird as some of those 1987 designs were at least they were all different. My only remaining interest in this forum are the pics from the prior America's Cup competitions. Bring back the nationality rules and unique designs and this whole forum will change its tune. For my part, I'll keep to the Dinghy Forum. The only difference between the AC forum and the Dinghy forum, at this point, is the size of the boats, after all, and I'm not likely to buy one of these so I'll stick my nose back where it belongs.

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These Boats are as majestic as it gets!

nz02107013.jpg

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^ Majestic but slow - too much skirt

 

 

My suggestion would be that those who want photos should post them themselves, on any thread they like and that those who prefer a particular 'tone' should feel free to participate on that basis.

 

But zero-contributors demanding that a forum suddenly be remade in their image :lol: - good luck with that.....

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Sorry IACC boats are about as majestic as a turd. Only a Kiwi could find a picture of a failed design that got it's ass kicked as "majestic". Maybe you should head down to the Viaduct and spank one to your monument to being poor losers

800px-Sir_Michael_Fay%27s_America%27s_Cu

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Sorry IACC boats are about as majestic as a turd. Only a Kiwi could find a picture of a failed design that got it's ass kicked as "majestic". Maybe you should head down to the Viaduct and spank one to your monument to being poor losers

800px-Sir_Michael_Fay%27s_America%27s_Cu

Kiwis think anything black or labeled Steinlager is a winner.

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^^

Tell me again how this came about? You wanna talk about sore losers.

Large_368756667_GMR_1904.jpg

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Really doesn't matter much, she was a definite winner.

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So, my memory is kinda hazy...but remind me what made Fay, with his ambush challenge, any less of a sore loser than Ellison and his ambush challenge?

 

Two peas in a pod, it would appear.

 

Yeah, LE's a hypocrite, but at least he managed to succeed.

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I don't think the two are comparable since Larry was perfectly willing to continue on with the rules from the previous cup and let others race as well, it was Bertarelli that forced the dog fight. That said my comments refer to the actions of the kiwis after they lost with the maxi boat.

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Really doesn't matter much, she was a definite winner.

Haha classic. If you're American with a bottomless wallet, its fine and dandy, if you're a kiwi, gtf outta here you sore loser lol

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I don't think the two are comparable since Larry was perfectly willing to continue on with the rules from the previous cup and let others race as well, it was Bertarelli that forced the dog fight. That said my comments refer to the actions of the kiwis after they lost with the maxi boat.

When you're the Defender, you get to make the rules. Isn't that the deal? I guess it is until someone rich like Ellison doesn't wanna play by those rules.

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Thanks for the above picture of White Crusader 2. What an amazing design!

 

Can someone post the link to the 12m Facebook page these pictures came from?

 

Also, I've never seen a picture of the Australia IV and Australia III Keels when they were painted white in the cup. I've seen the red painted pictures as they sit rotting in Malaysia, but I'm interested if anyone got photos of their keels during or after the 1987 AC.

 

Similar for Stars & Stripes USA 56 and USA 54 (not USA 55 that won the cup) - I'm interested what their keels looked like.

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Says it all that "AC50 porn" instantly turned into a leadmine nostalgia-fest.

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Since we are going down memory lane, some of my easy on the eyes favorites:

 

33wb7nt.jpg

 

ma845c.jpg

 

8zo2kj.jpg

 

35i3upw.jpg

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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Sorry IACC boats are about as majestic as a turd. Only a Kiwi could find a picture of a failed design that got it's ass kicked as "majestic". Maybe you should head down to the Viaduct and spank one to your monument to being poor losers

800px-Sir_Michael_Fay%27s_America%27s_Cu

 

I guess the US lacks any real sailing talent given the make-up of OR-AUS, let us know if you need anymore AusKiwis.

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Says it all that "AC50 porn" instantly turned into a leadmine nostalgia-fest.

tumblr_ohs5eyX4WS1u1vkloo1_540_zps4lg89u

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Sorry IACC boats are about as majestic as a turd. Only a Kiwi could find a picture of a failed design that got it's ass kicked as "majestic". Maybe you should head down to the Viaduct and spank one to your monument to being poor losers

800px-Sir_Michael_Fay%27s_America%27s_Cu

Kiwis think anything black or labeled Steinlager is a winner.

 

Steinlager 2 won the Whitbread round the world race, won every leg, The All Blacks are 2 time world champions, NZL38 was retired unbeaten, NZL32 won the Cup, NZL60 defended it, Team New Zealand while being whitewashed by Alinghi formed the base of what is now the longest running Americas Cup team ever. Ya gotta admit...most of the time anything black or labelled Steinlager has been a winner.

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Um, Think you'll find the All Blacks are three time world cup champs. The first to have back to back wins... but other than that little point...

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Um, Think you'll find the All Blacks are three time world cup champs. The first to have back to back wins... but other than that little point...

You would be correct,

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Sorry IACC boats are about as majestic as a turd. Only a Kiwi could find a picture of a failed design that got it's ass kicked as "majestic". Maybe you should head down to the Viaduct and spank one to your monument to being poor losers

800px-Sir_Michael_Fay%27s_America%27s_Cu

Kiwis think anything black or labeled Steinlager is a winner.

 

Steinlager 2 won the Whitbread round the world race, won every leg, The All Blacks are 2 time world champions, NZL38 was retired unbeaten, NZL32 won the Cup, NZL60 defended it, Team New Zealand while being whitewashed by Alinghi formed the base of what is now the longest running Americas Cup team ever. Ya gotta admit...most of the time anything black or labelled Steinlager has been a winner.

 

 

There was a rumor that Bill Koch offered to finance a huge scow to race against NZL Big Boat, but Conner preferred to use a cat. Bummer, that could have been an AC for the ages, those two magnificent beasts match racing.

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Sorry IACC boats are about as majestic as a turd. Only a Kiwi could find a picture of a failed design that got it's ass kicked as "majestic". Maybe you should head down to the Viaduct and spank one to your monument to being poor losers

800px-Sir_Michael_Fay%27s_America%27s_Cu

Kiwis think anything black or labeled Steinlager is a winner.

 

Steinlager 2 won the Whitbread round the world race, won every leg, The All Blacks are three-time (2 time) world champions, NZL38 was retired unbeaten, NZL32 won the Cup, NZL60 defended it, Team New Zealand while being whitewashed by Alinghi formed the base of what is now the longest running Americas Cup team ever. Ya gotta admit...most of the time anything black or labelled Steinlager has been a winner.

 

 

 

Also overlooked that Fay's outrageous challenger sparked a massive reset in America's Cup competition. What's more it might still have won had not John Marshall and DC forced their even more outrageous catamaran defence through the courts.

 

These days in its prime position outside the Auckland Maritime Museum K1 is a fitting salute to NZ sailing history ..... as well as a handy rendezvous landmark for visitors old and new.

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It would have made the best match in the history of the Cup. Fuck SDYC, Ehman and Conner for weaselling out of it.

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Since we are going down memory lane, some of my easy on the eyes favorites:

 

33wb7nt.jpg

 

 

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

Every time I see a picture of YA, I'm reminded of that uneasy feeling of how DC was doomed before the match even took place.

 

 

It would have made the best match in the history of the Cup. Fuck SDYC, Ehman and Conner for weaselling out of it.

 

It turned out more like this.

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It would have made the best match in the history of the Cup. Fuck SDYC, Ehman and Conner for weaselling out of it.

They didn't weasel out of anything. Each design team started with a blank sheet of paper and designed the fastest boat they could think of within the rules. Unfortunately, the NZ team was limited by their belief that only monohulls were sailboats. You shouldn't blame the Americans for New Zealand's lack of creative thinking...

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It would have made the best match in the history of the Cup. Fuck SDYC, Ehman and Conner for weaselling out of it.

For what? "Weaselling" out of a rumor? There was no giant scow, there was however a catamaran, 2 in fact, that were real.

It is better to race real cats than rumored scows.

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It would have made the best match in the history of the Cup. Fuck SDYC, Ehman and Conner for weaselling out of it.

They didn't weasel out of anything. Each design team started with a blank sheet of paper and designed the fastest boat they could think of within the rules. Unfortunately, the NZ team was limited by their belief that only monohulls were sailboats. You shouldn't blame the Americans for New Zealand's lack of creative thinking...

 

 

 

What rules, Peter? The defenders didn't just bend the rules. They tortured them. Then they took their case to the NY State Supreme Court to win over a bunch of landlubber judges, even using a sympathetic French historian to push their shaky case.

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It would have made the best match in the history of the Cup. Fuck SDYC, Ehman and Conner for weaselling out of it.

They didn't weasel out of anything. Each design team started with a blank sheet of paper and designed the fastest boat they could think of within the rules. Unfortunately, the NZ team was limited by their belief that only monohulls were sailboats. You shouldn't blame the Americans for New Zealand's lack of creative thinking...

 

 

 

What rules, Peter? The defenders didn't just bend the rules. They tortured them. Then they took their case to the NY State Supreme Court to win over a bunch of landlubber judges, even using a sympathetic French historian to push their shaky case.

 

They did not torture the rules. Perhaps easy to say now but, "any one yacht".

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It would have made the best match in the history of the Cup. Fuck SDYC, Ehman and Conner for weaselling out of it.

They didn't weasel out of anything. Each design team started with a blank sheet of paper and designed the fastest boat they could think of within the rules. Unfortunately, the NZ team was limited by their belief that only monohulls were sailboats. You shouldn't blame the Americans for New Zealand's lack of creative thinking...

 

 

 

What rules, Peter? The defenders didn't just bend the rules. They tortured them. Then they took their case to the NY State Supreme Court to win over a bunch of landlubber judges, even using a sympathetic French historian to push their shaky case.

 

 

 

They didn't torture them , they read them .

 

Fay tried to pull la fast one and it didn't pan out as he planned.

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Sure, although it was SDYC's endless dithering over the venue that opened the window for that to happen. But had SDYC stepped up to the challenge, it would have made the most spectacular Match in the history of the Cup, instead of the laughing stock it became. Worst Defender ever. Worse even than GGYC. What is it about the defending the Cup that left coast clubs don't get?

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Koch *did* offer SDYC to build a 90' boat. But the syndicate said, "Great! And DC will be the skipper."

 

Koch asked why they thought he would build a boat for DC instead of for his own team. And that was the end of that. God bless Malin Burnham!

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Sheesh. Make up you minds already.

 

"They took too long to decide!"

 

"That race didn't end quickly enough!"

 

"Waaagh!"

 

The fact is, they pulled out a knife, and then the other guy pulled out a gun.

 

The AC is interesting because it's rigged, and can get down and dirty. Don't like it? Take it away, and then you get to bend the rules to the best of your ability.

 

But I am in the Anybody But Oracle camp, and would welcome a return to sanity if ETNZ reclaimed the Cup.

 

This neatly-packaged, Pollyanna charade being pushing now is the worst of all worlds, with villainy, incompetence, little of the "boat porn," and key elements of the event blithely shoved aside in a futile chase for an audience it will never receive.

 

LE and RC had their era, it's time for someone else to step up, and move on.

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Sheesh. Make up you minds already.

 

"They took too long to decide!"

 

"That race didn't end quickly enough!"

 

"Waaagh!"

 

The fact is, they pulled out a knife, and then the other guy pulled out a gun.

 

The AC is interesting because it's rigged, and can get down and dirty. Don't like it? Take it away, and then you get to bend the rules to the best of your ability.

 

But I am in the Anybody But Oracle camp, and would welcome a return to sanity if ETNZ reclaimed the Cup.

 

This neatly-packaged, Pollyanna charade being pushing now is the worst of all worlds, with villainy, incompetence, little of the "boat porn," and key elements of the event blithely shoved aside in a futile chase for an audience it will never receive.

 

LE and RC had their era, it's time for someone else to step up, and move on.

 

+1

 

The boat porn is what I miss the most. I loved the AC32 cycle. Waiting for the big teams 1st boat to come out and then waiting to see what boat #2 would differ from #1. Then the mid-tier teams and what their one new boat would look like. Then unveiling day. Now what differences are we looking for? Foils and cockpit layouts? Fantastic.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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will this be the thread where we lay our eyes on the first AC 2017 boat?

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No, as we already have done.

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once we have seen one, then we have seen them all (colour scheme the only difference)

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Sheesh. Make up you minds already.

 

"They took too long to decide!"

 

"That race didn't end quickly enough!"

 

"Waaagh!"

 

The fact is, they pulled out a knife, and then the other guy pulled out a gun.

 

The AC is interesting because it's rigged, and can get down and dirty. Don't like it? Take it away, and then you get to bend the rules to the best of your ability.

 

But I am in the Anybody But Oracle camp, and would welcome a return to sanity if ETNZ reclaimed the Cup.

 

This neatly-packaged, Pollyanna charade being pushing now is the worst of all worlds, with villainy, incompetence, little of the "boat porn," and key elements of the event blithely shoved aside in a futile chase for an audience it will never receive.

 

LE and RC had their era, it's time for someone else to step up, and move on.

 

 

in a futile chase for an audience it will never receive.

 

You will be right!

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But it's not boat porn any more. It's like holiday family photo session time.

 

The jewels are all clothed and photoshopped.

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And the clothes are all the same outfit, just in different colours.

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Sheesh. Make up you minds already.

 

"They took too long to decide!"

 

"That race didn't end quickly enough!"

 

"Waaagh!"

 

The fact is, they pulled out a knife, and then the other guy pulled out a gun.

 

The AC is interesting because it's rigged, and can get down and dirty. Don't like it? Take it away, and then you get to bend the rules to the best of your ability.

 

But I am in the Anybody But Oracle camp, and would welcome a return to sanity if ETNZ reclaimed the Cup.

 

This neatly-packaged, Pollyanna charade being pushing now is the worst of all worlds, with villainy, incompetence, little of the "boat porn," and key elements of the event blithely shoved aside in a futile chase for an audience it will never receive.

 

LE and RC had their era, it's time for someone else to step up, and move on.

 

 

in a futile chase for an audience it will never receive.

 

You will be right!

 

+1

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Sheesh. Make up you minds already.

 

"They took too long to decide!"

 

"That race didn't end quickly enough!"

 

"Waaagh!"

 

The fact is, they pulled out a knife, and then the other guy pulled out a gun.

 

The AC is interesting because it's rigged, and can get down and dirty. Don't like it? Take it away, and then you get to bend the rules to the best of your ability.

 

But I am in the Anybody But Oracle camp, and would welcome a return to sanity if ETNZ reclaimed the Cup.

 

This neatly-packaged, Pollyanna charade being pushing now is the worst of all worlds, with villainy, incompetence, little of the "boat porn," and key elements of the event blithely shoved aside in a futile chase for an audience it will never receive.

 

LE and RC had their era, it's time for someone else to step up, and move on.

 

+1

 

The boat porn is what I miss the most. I loved the AC32 cycle. Waiting for the big teams 1st boat to come out and then waiting to see what boat #2 would differ from #1. Then the mid-tier teams and what their one new boat would look like. Then unveiling day. Now what differences are we looking for? Foils and cockpit layouts? Fantastic.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

That's the problem with these flying boats. Everything comes down to control and foil design. It happened to windsurf formula, when a fin was worth nearly the whole equipment. And like ist or not, the only way to have perfect control design means electronic. And that time will come in a near future, and then the cup will come up to who owns the better joystick

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Come on, the videos of the hydraulic controls being designed and machined are cool.

 

Leave the boring low-tech stuff like carbon fibre to be done in some third-world country ;)

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These Boats are as majestic as it gets!

nz02107013.jpg

 

 

Majastic?

Hulaed, over complicated and slow!

Where is the blue bucket?

 

Starting to get really frustrated, without this so called boat porn.

When do the AC15s launch.

is there any organised racing before 26 May?

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These Boats are as majestic as it gets!

nz02107013.jpg

 

 

Majastic?

Hulaed, over complicated and slow!

Where is the blue bucket?

 

Starting to get really frustrated, without this so called boat porn.

When do the AC15s launch.

is there any organised racing before 26 May?

 

 

Not even close. Here's mono boat porn right here:

post-76289-0-95303000-1485754664_thumb.jpg

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speed ain't everything

 

We forget yachting and yacht racing is not mainstream, in big boats its a sport for reasonably rich guys and for smaller boats it is still a middle class activity.

 

A lot of noise on this board is pathetic dribble made by people who will never be part of or own anything to do with the AC. Its a rich guys gig, it ain't for the masses. All the rich guys did was try and make it a national regatta so that taxpayers contribute. Along with all that comes the hairdressers and middle managers of the corporate world, the advertising salesmen. They have created the so called "modern era" of the AC and if the foiling fanboys have their way you will all be buying tickets to an indoor AC derby every other year.

 

The AC is fucked as a "sailing" event, Foiling is not sailing as we know it, I'm cool with foiling but go and foil in your own fucking event if you want me as a Joe Average sailor to remain interested in the cup. I'll repeat that, it is not sailing, its not wrong but its like F-1 suddenly allowing robots to drive maglev cars.

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speed ain't everything

 

We forget yachting and yacht racing is not mainstream, in big boats its a sport for reasonably rich guys and for smaller boats it is still a middle class activity.

 

A lot of noise on this board is pathetic dribble made by people who will never be part of or own anything to do with the AC. Its a rich guys gig, it ain't for the masses. All the rich guys did was try and make it a national regatta so that taxpayers contribute. Along with all that comes the hairdressers and middle managers of the corporate world, the advertising salesmen. They have created the so called "modern era" of the AC and if the foiling fanboys have their way you will all be buying tickets to an indoor AC derby every other year.

 

The AC is fucked as a "sailing" event, Foiling is not sailing as we know it, I'm cool with foiling but go and foil in your own fucking event if you want me as a Joe Average sailor to remain interested in the cup. I'll repeat that, it is not sailing, its not wrong but its like F-1 suddenly allowing robots to drive maglev cars.

yep, says it all

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#anyonebutoracle has now become #onlyetnzcansaveus

 

 

 

 

But I am in the Anybody But Oracle camp, and would welcome a return to sanity if ETNZ reclaimed the Cup.

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I for one cannot wait to see how these "onedesign" AC Class yachts perform.

Who has the best solution to get the boats foiling in lower winds and who has the best control of the systems over the (short) span of the contest.

 

While there is at least one team who is probably a long way from competing on the same level as the other 5, the actual opening series will be one of the most interesting and hardest faught in many cycles.

 

If the racing is as close as I think it is shaping up to be, the TV ratings for the Challenger Series could end up the best ever.

 

We now have off the water controversy that if combined with a solidly contested qualifier series will lead to a Cup that fans and non-fans alike will find themselves tuning into to view what's next! (Especially if JS hits a few boats during the event).

 

I have yet to watch very many ESS events that really had "watchable" racing (although there have been a few, but only a few) and there has never been enough GC32 film or coverage of a complete series or race to see what these boats can actually do.

 

At least, for me, there have been a few venues on the last ACWS where conditions were good for the AC45f cats, they were able to foil consistently and the racing was fun to watch. Much more than ESS.

 

The AC Class 50 footers should provide great racing and visuals and something I cannot wait to see .

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I for one cannot wait to see how these "onedesign" AC Class yachts perform.

Who has the best solution to get the boats foiling in lower winds and who has the best control of the systems over the (short) span of the contest.

 

While there is at least one team who is probably a long way from competing on the same level as the other 5, the actual opening series will be one of the most interesting and hardest faught in many cycles.

 

If the racing is as close as I think it is shaping up to be, the TV ratings for the Challenger Series could end up the best ever.

 

We now have off the water controversy that if combined with a solidly contested qualifier series will lead to a Cup that fans and non-fans alike will find themselves tuning into to view what's next! (Especially if JS hits a few boats during the event).

 

I have yet to watch very many ESS events that really had "watchable" racing (although there have been a few, but only a few) and there has never been enough GC32 film or coverage of a complete series or race to see what these boats can actually do.

 

At least, for me, there have been a few venues on the last ACWS where conditions were good for the AC45f cats, they were able to foil consistently and the racing was fun to watch. Much more than ESS.

 

The AC Class 50 footers should provide great racing and visuals and something I cannot wait to see .

 

No question these boats will be amazing.

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#anyonebutoracle has now become #onlyetnzcansaveus

 

 

 

 

But I am in the Anybody But Oracle camp, and would welcome a return to sanity if ETNZ reclaimed the Cup.

 

+10000

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#anyonebutoracle has now become #onlyetnzcansaveus

 

 

 

Trenchant and pure win.

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speed ain't everything

 

We forget yachting and yacht racing is not mainstream, in big boats its a sport for reasonably rich guys and for smaller boats it is still a middle class activity.

 

A lot of noise on this board is pathetic dribble made by people who will never be part of or own anything to do with the AC. Its a rich guys gig, it ain't for the masses. All the rich guys did was try and make it a national regatta so that taxpayers contribute. Along with all that comes the hairdressers and middle managers of the corporate world, the advertising salesmen. They have created the so called "modern era" of the AC and if the foiling fanboys have their way you will all be buying tickets to an indoor AC derby every other year.

 

The AC is fucked as a "sailing" event, Foiling is not sailing as we know it, I'm cool with foiling but go and foil in your own fucking event if you want me as a Joe Average sailor to remain interested in the cup. I'll repeat that, it is not sailing, its not wrong but its like F-1 suddenly allowing robots to drive maglev cars.

You may not be in the majority here with your thoughts but you would be at most any yacht club where people actually race or at least sail once in awhile. Go back to AC 33 or earlier if possible and see the amount of interest there was on this and other sailing forums . We are weeks away from the event itself and there are only a handful of people bothering to even comment now and then . I would not be surprised if the crusing anarchy forum has more traffic .

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speed ain't everything

 

We forget yachting and yacht racing is not mainstream, in big boats its a sport for reasonably rich guys and for smaller boats it is still a middle class activity.

 

A lot of noise on this board is pathetic dribble made by people who will never be part of or own anything to do with the AC. Its a rich guys gig, it ain't for the masses. All the rich guys did was try and make it a national regatta so that taxpayers contribute. Along with all that comes the hairdressers and middle managers of the corporate world, the advertising salesmen. They have created the so called "modern era" of the AC and if the foiling fanboys have their way you will all be buying tickets to an indoor AC derby every other year.

 

The AC is fucked as a "sailing" event, Foiling is not sailing as we know it, I'm cool with foiling but go and foil in your own fucking event if you want me as a Joe Average sailor to remain interested in the cup. I'll repeat that, it is not sailing, its not wrong but its like F-1 suddenly allowing robots to drive maglev cars.

You may not be in the majority here with your thoughts but you would be at most any yacht club where people actually race or at least sail once in awhile. Go back to AC 33 or earlier if possible and see the amount of interest there was on this and other sailing forums . We are weeks away from the event itself and there are only a handful of people bothering to even comment now and then . I would not be surprised if the crusing anarchy forum has more traffic .

 

I really struggle with this idea that speed isn't everything.

If speed isn't everything (within a set of rules) then you are cruising not racing.

We know that if you take the cup rules to the extreme you end up with a huge multihull (probably now foiling)

 

 

Surely a cup boat has to be quicker than most other boats (waste of time if a TP can beat you around a course).

So the logical progression to foiling multihulls is easy if you want something transportable and relatively affordable and within the spirit of teh rules. (the wings I can take or leave).

 

I agree about lack of interest in the lead up.

I know I will pay much more attention once the real boats are revealed.

 

However the lead up to AC33 and to an extent AC34 could not be considered usual.

This forum was incredible when one of the posters drew a virtually complete Alinghi months before release based on a few concrete footings in a y shape (and a plastic chair) and some of the designers previous work. Mind blowing.

 

AC34 had all the speculation about foiling (photoshopped ETNZ or not), then OR crashing, then jybing etc.

 

Looks much more controlled and civilised this time.....not so exciting.

 

Cannot wait to see the final boats tho.

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^ Some pooh-pooh the amount of design that is open in this first AC50 Rule but my sense is that while the control systems will be mostly hidden the results will be highly visible.

 

There could also be a lot of fun in analyzing (okay, guessing) why some boats are getting around the marks faster than others - and it will be about a lot more than just around their foil shape selections.

 

One recent example I read was an interview with Ian Burns at SailRacingMagazine, think it was October, titled Dodging the Wind.

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"The beams are one design but the leading edge is an aerofoil shape and to a certain degree we are allowed to do what we like behind that, meaning there are opportunities to make some quite big gains there by fitting fairing panels. The question is whether you want to lift the boat, push the boat down, or just minimise the drag and not do any kind of force creation."

 

This may be a stupid question--already answered in the protocol or just too much work--but would the teams be allowed to have movable, controllable flaps on the undefined section behind the crossbeams?

 

Ailerons and flaps work on airplanes. They're kind of a well-understood part of aeronautical engineering, I think.

 

Put flaps up on the windward side to get more righting moment?

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"The beams are one design but the leading edge is an aerofoil shape and to a certain degree we are allowed to do what we like behind that, meaning there are opportunities to make some quite big gains there by fitting fairing panels. The question is whether you want to lift the boat, push the boat down, or just minimise the drag and not do any kind of force creation."

 

This may be a stupid question--already answered in the protocol or just too much work--but would the teams be allowed to have movable, controllable flaps on the undefined section behind the crossbeams?

 

Ailerons and flaps work on airplanes. They're kind of a well-understood part of aeronautical engineering, I think.

 

Put flaps up on the windward side to get more righting moment?

Me too, that's the part that piqued my interest the most from that article.

 

Have been watching the test boats with an eye to if anyone is doing this but it hasn't been obviously shown by anybody so far. The wing being at an attitude to provide some amount of vertical vector lift must be a huge consideration, along with the aileron you mention.

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speed ain't everything

 

We forget yachting and yacht racing is not mainstream, in big boats its a sport for reasonably rich guys and for smaller boats it is still a middle class activity.

 

A lot of noise on this board is pathetic dribble made by people who will never be part of or own anything to do with the AC. Its a rich guys gig, it ain't for the masses. All the rich guys did was try and make it a national regatta so that taxpayers contribute. Along with all that comes the hairdressers and middle managers of the corporate world, the advertising salesmen. They have created the so called "modern era" of the AC and if the foiling fanboys have their way you will all be buying tickets to an indoor AC derby every other year.

 

The AC is fucked as a "sailing" event, Foiling is not sailing as we know it, I'm cool with foiling but go and foil in your own fucking event if you want me as a Joe Average sailor to remain interested in the cup. I'll repeat that, it is not sailing, its not wrong but its like F-1 suddenly allowing robots to drive maglev cars.

You may not be in the majority here with your thoughts but you would be at most any yacht club where people actually race or at least sail once in awhile. Go back to AC 33 or earlier if possible and see the amount of interest there was on this and other sailing forums . We are weeks away from the event itself and there are only a handful of people bothering to even comment now and then . I would not be surprised if the crusing anarchy forum has more traffic .

 

I really struggle with this idea that speed isn't everything.

If speed isn't everything (within a set of rules) then you are cruising not racing.

We know that if you take the cup rules to the extreme you end up with a huge multihull (probably now foiling)

 

 

Surely a cup boat has to be quicker than most other boats (waste of time if a TP can beat you around a course).

So the logical progression to foiling multihulls is easy if you want something transportable and relatively affordable and within the spirit of teh rules. (the wings I can take or leave).

 

I agree about lack of interest in the lead up.

I know I will pay much more attention once the real boats are revealed.

 

However the lead up to AC33 and to an extent AC34 could not be considered usual.

This forum was incredible when one of the posters drew a virtually complete Alinghi months before release based on a few concrete footings in a y shape (and a plastic chair) and some of the designers previous work. Mind blowing.

 

AC34 had all the speculation about foiling (photoshopped ETNZ or not), then OR crashing, then jybing etc.

 

Looks much more controlled and civilised this time.....not so exciting.

 

Cannot wait to see the final boats tho.

 

 

good point, why not get rid of sails completely and whiz around in hydroplanes, much faster. Fuck sailing, and rules, fuck them too and their mother

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speed ain't everything

That would have to be one of stupidest comments ever made about sailboat racing.

 

A faster boat will always win, speed makes you tactics look brilliant. Its not called racing for nothing!

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speed ain't everything

That would have to be one of stupidest comments ever made about sailboat racing.

 

A faster boat will always win, speed makes you tactics look brilliant. Its not called racing for nothing!

 

 

Try thinking before replying.

 

Speed is not everything, speed is relative and restrained by rules. Yachts are as slow as fuck, even the bleeding edge AC boats can be outrun by virtually any shitty jetski or family runabout. But Ooooh its wind powered, who gives a shit? Yacht racing is a tactical sport, the rules keep it all close and if you race and win by three legs everytime then you are not racing you are masturbating

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^

 

Speed is indeed relative. The object is to be faster than the other guy in addition to sailing the best possible course.

 

Going faster than the other guy is the only speed that counts as far as racing goes. If one boat is doing 10 kts and the competitor is doing 11kts that is what is relative .

 

In some respects slower to some degree might be better. Match racing at 40 kts isn't going to leave much time for tactics . It might be able to keep the " new " fans interested for the entire 15 min of the " race " but for anyone looking for activity that they can relate to, like crew work for example, there wont be much .

 

Having the almighty TV and internet ratings drop with each successive act has to be giving them something to think about .

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^

 

Speed is indeed relative. The object is to be faster than the other guy in addition to sailing the best possible course.

 

Going faster than the other guy is the only speed that counts as far as racing goes. If one boat is doing 10 kts and the competitor is doing 11kts that is what is relative .

 

In some respects slower to some degree might be better. Match racing at 40 kts isn't going to leave much time for tactics . It might be able to keep the " new " fans interested for the entire 15 min of the " race " but for anyone looking for activity that they can relate to, like crew work for example, there wont be much .

 

Having the almighty TV and internet ratings drop with each successive act has to be giving them something to think about .

And there you have the nub of it.

The tactics have to be quicker to match the faster boat and maneuvers.

The brain and the bodies have to be quicker and stronger to match the physical nature of the boats.

No more 60 year old fat guys cogitating for eons on the helm.

No more trimmers laying all over each other below the gunwale spurred into action for 20 seconds every 10 mins or so for a tack.

Go back and have a listen to the intense interaction going on between Slingsby and Ainslie in the last AC whilst grinding like hell.

Much, much more of an achievement (to me) than just waiting until the inherent better boat design kicks in and the advantage gained.

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^

 

Speed is indeed relative. The object is to be faster than the other guy in addition to sailing the best possible course.

 

Going faster than the other guy is the only speed that counts as far as racing goes. If one boat is doing 10 kts and the competitor is doing 11kts that is what is relative .

 

In some respects slower to some degree might be better. Match racing at 40 kts isn't going to leave much time for tactics . It might be able to keep the " new " fans interested for the entire 15 min of the " race " but for anyone looking for activity that they can relate to, like crew work for example, there wont be much .

 

Having the almighty TV and internet ratings drop with each successive act has to be giving them something to think about .

 

And yet this whole stadia racing aberration is supposedly designed to increase the AC's appeal to the 'great unwashed' and therefore provide a revenue stream supporting a living for all the clowns in in the circus.

 

Something to think about indeed.

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^

 

Speed is indeed relative. The object is to be faster than the other guy in addition to sailing the best possible course.

 

Going faster than the other guy is the only speed that counts as far as racing goes. If one boat is doing 10 kts and the competitor is doing 11kts that is what is relative .

 

In some respects slower to some degree might be better. Match racing at 40 kts isn't going to leave much time for tactics . It might be able to keep the " new " fans interested for the entire 15 min of the " race " but for anyone looking for activity that they can relate to, like crew work for example, there wont be much .

 

Having the almighty TV and internet ratings drop with each successive act has to be giving them something to think about .

And there you have the nub of it.

The tactics have to be quicker to match the faster boat and maneuvers. There will be less tactics due to the short length of each race. less than 20 min average.

The brain and the bodies have to be quicker and stronger to match the physical nature of the boats. Four or five guys grinding in place is taxing, yes, entertaining NO

No more 60 year old fat guys cogitating for eons on the helm. Haven't had that in quite a few years now

No more trimmers laying all over each other below the gunwale spurred into action for 20 seconds every 10 mins or so for a tack. Yes none of that action that every other sailor on the planet can relate to

Go back and have a listen to the intense interaction going on between Slingsby and Ainslie in the last AC whilst grinding like hell. ? Talk while spinning handles, amazing. I've done it , a lot :)

Much, much more of an achievement (to me) than just waiting until the inherent better boat design kicks in and the advantage gained. You mean ,God forbid ,two boats that are not identical , how unfair . If thats a thrill for you perhaps you should take in a j-boat regatta some time.

 

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^

 

Speed is indeed relative. The object is to be faster than the other guy in addition to sailing the best possible course.

 

Going faster than the other guy is the only speed that counts as far as racing goes. If one boat is doing 10 kts and the competitor is doing 11kts that is what is relative .

 

In some respects slower to some degree might be better. Match racing at 40 kts isn't going to leave much time for tactics . It might be able to keep the " new " fans interested for the entire 15 min of the " race " but for anyone looking for activity that they can relate to, like crew work for example, there wont be much .

 

Having the almighty TV and internet ratings drop with each successive act has to be giving them something to think about .

 

And yet this whole stadia racing aberration is supposedly designed to increase the AC's appeal to the 'great unwashed' and therefore provide a revenue stream supporting a living for all the clowns in in the circus.

 

Something to think about indeed.

 

 

Yes it was .

 

RC was banking on the REVENUE from the TV gods to fund his little circus.

 

Can you imagine the look in his face when he was informed that instead of a check they would be receiving a bill ?

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I don't think the two are comparable since Larry was perfectly willing to continue on with the rules from the previous cup and let others race as well, it was Bertarelli that forced the dog fight. That said my comments refer to the actions of the kiwis after they lost with the maxi boat.

So you don't like the fact that Fay used the typically American propensity to litigate against San Diego YC? Judge Cipatrick got it right in the initial Supreme Court, subsequently reversed by the CoA in a majority decision. The disgraceful actions in 88 were by the NYAG and of course SDYC.

 

Judge Hancock Jr, an avid sailor, was the sole dissenter voting against the establishment who quite properly explained the "accepted rule-of-thumb" that "the square root of twice the load water-line length of a monohull keel yacht in feet is approximately equal to the yacht's hull speed in knots." Therefore, the trust documents' only description of dimension, length on the load waterline, demonstrated his point because that dimension description had no relevance to a catamaran! But of course all this wisdom was ignored in the rush to reverse Judge Cipatrick and keep the Cup in the US of A!

 

And let's not go down the track of SDYC's breach of its duty as trustee which Judges Titone and Hancock found SDYC had committed in its decision to use a cat, with .."San Diego (YC) officials also said they believe they have the right to set up conditions they think will make it virtually impossible for New Zealand to win" (San Diego Tribune, Dec. 3, 1987.

 

Be careful what you ask for...

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^

 

Speed is indeed relative. The object is to be faster than the other guy in addition to sailing the best possible course.

 

Going faster than the other guy is the only speed that counts as far as racing goes. If one boat is doing 10 kts and the competitor is doing 11kts that is what is relative .

 

In some respects slower to some degree might be better. Match racing at 40 kts isn't going to leave much time for tactics . It might be able to keep the " new " fans interested for the entire 15 min of the " race " but for anyone looking for activity that they can relate to, like crew work for example, there wont be much .

 

Having the almighty TV and internet ratings drop with each successive act has to be giving them something to think about .

And there you have the nub of it.

The tactics have to be quicker to match the faster boat and maneuvers. There will be less tactics due to the short length of each race. less than 20 min average. Sure, less than a 2 hour plus lead belly race, but a hell of a lot in 20 mins (how long on each tack/jibe.

The brain and the bodies have to be quicker and stronger to match the physical nature of the boats. Four or five guys grinding in place is taxing, yes, entertaining NO. No. But constant tacking, jibing running from side to side punctuated by intense grinding sure is.

No more 60 year old fat guys cogitating for eons on the helm. Haven't had that in quite a few years now . Yep coinciding with the adnet of the multies. I don't think Butterballs made into onto the Alinghi cat did he?

No more trimmers laying all over each other below the gunwale spurred into action for 20 seconds every 10 mins or so for a tack. Yes none of that action that every other (lead swinger) sailor on the planet can relate to

Go back and have a listen to the intense interaction going on between Slingsby and Ainslie in the last AC whilst grinding like hell. ? Talk while spinning handles, amazing. I've done it , a lot :). Big difference between talking shit and actually working out correctly how to win a boat race.

Much, much more of an achievement (to me) than just waiting until the inherent better boat design kicks in and the advantage gained. You mean ,God forbid ,two boats that are not identical , how unfair . If thats a thrill for you perhaps you should take in a j-boat regatta some time. Happy to watch just about any boat race. Never had the chance to sail on a J or any of the big boats, but I really like the tactile response of small, very fast boats. Prefer watching the AC multies than the monos (but would watch those too if the only option).

 

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^

 

Speed is indeed relative. The object is to be faster than the other guy in addition to sailing the best possible course.

 

Going faster than the other guy is the only speed that counts as far as racing goes. If one boat is doing 10 kts and the competitor is doing 11kts that is what is relative .

 

In some respects slower to some degree might be better. Match racing at 40 kts isn't going to leave much time for tactics . It might be able to keep the " new " fans interested for the entire 15 min of the " race " but for anyone looking for activity that they can relate to, like crew work for example, there wont be much .

 

Having the almighty TV and internet ratings drop with each successive act has to be giving them something to think about .

And there you have the nub of it.

The tactics have to be quicker to match the faster boat and maneuvers.

The brain and the bodies have to be quicker and stronger to match the physical nature of the boats.

No more 60 year old fat guys cogitating for eons on the helm.

No more trimmers laying all over each other below the gunwale spurred into action for 20 seconds every 10 mins or so for a tack.

Go back and have a listen to the intense interaction going on between Slingsby and Ainslie in the last AC whilst grinding like hell.

Much, much more of an achievement (to me) than just waiting until the inherent better boat design kicks in and the advantage gained.

 

 

Geo, once again you have ignored reality in order to diss boats you don't like. It's just BS to claim that there were 60 year olds at the helm until multis arrived. Spithill will be 38 this AC - that's older than Bertrand was when he won the Cup (at his third try) and just a year younger than Charlie Barr was when he drove Reliance to his third AC victory. DC was 32 when he first won the AC in 12 Metres, Chris Dickson 26 when he did his first AC in 12s. Ian Percy was 37 last time around, Barker 41, Dalton 54, de Angelis 53. In other words it's just wrong to say that the cats brought in younger skippers.

 

If you don't know that Butterworth was on the Alinghi cat then perhaps you should stop assuming that you know it all about AC crews.

 

It's funny how cat sailors (and I am one) talked it up as a good thing when Elvstrom did the Olympics on the Tornado in his old age, but talk it down as a bad thing when mono sailors win when they are ageing. And if youth and high speed go together, how come the Tornado sailors had the OLDEST average age of any sailing event at the class' last Olympics?

 

The brains are the same and if the boats are faster, something else must be lost because the brain's cognitive functions do not increase with boatspeed. It's a zero sum game. As one of those who has been sailing classes that do 30 knots during racing I can say that it's not much different to racing Etchells and Lasers - that's why the winning afterguard last time came from that sort of boat. If you think that an AC trimmer and skipper just "talked shit" and did nothing in mono days then you have apparently never sailed with any of them. If you think that sailing slow monos is easy I invite you to show us your extensive trophy cabinet from such classes.

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^^ Good post, we all love the sport so maybe we have to see if this cup cycle will produce the goods. Coutts is a clever man and kids love the action so maybe we just need a bigger racetrack and longer courses to make it interesting. Who knows maybe it will help save yachting?

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^

 

Speed is indeed relative. The object is to be faster than the other guy in addition to sailing the best possible course.

 

Going faster than the other guy is the only speed that counts as far as racing goes. If one boat is doing 10 kts and the competitor is doing 11kts that is what is relative .

 

In some respects slower to some degree might be better. Match racing at 40 kts isn't going to leave much time for tactics . It might be able to keep the " new " fans interested for the entire 15 min of the " race " but for anyone looking for activity that they can relate to, like crew work for example, there wont be much .

 

Having the almighty TV and internet ratings drop with each successive act has to be giving them something to think about .

And there you have the nub of it.

The tactics have to be quicker to match the faster boat and maneuvers.

The brain and the bodies have to be quicker and stronger to match the physical nature of the boats.

No more 60 year old fat guys cogitating for eons on the helm.

No more trimmers laying all over each other below the gunwale spurred into action for 20 seconds every 10 mins or so for a tack.

Go back and have a listen to the intense interaction going on between Slingsby and Ainslie in the last AC whilst grinding like hell.

Much, much more of an achievement (to me) than just waiting until the inherent better boat design kicks in and the advantage gained.

 

 

Geo, once again you have ignored reality in order to diss boats you don't like. It's just BS to claim that there were 60 year olds at the helm until multis arrived. Spithill will be 38 this AC - that's older than Bertrand was when he won the Cup (at his third try) and just a year younger than Charlie Barr was when he drove Reliance to his third AC victory. DC was 32 when he first won the AC in 12 Metres, Chris Dickson 26 when he did his first AC in 12s. Ian Percy was 37 last time around, Barker 41, Dalton 54, de Angelis 53. In other words it's just wrong to say that the cats brought in younger skippers.

 

If you don't know that Butterworth was on the Alinghi cat then perhaps you should stop assuming that you know it all about AC crews.

 

It's funny how cat sailors (and I am one) talked it up as a good thing when Elvstrom did the Olympics on the Tornado in his old age, but talk it down as a bad thing when mono sailors win when they are ageing. And if youth and high speed go together, how come the Tornado sailors had the OLDEST average age of any sailing event at the class' last Olympics?

 

The brains are the same and if the boats are faster, something else must be lost because the brain's cognitive functions do not increase with boatspeed. It's a zero sum game. As one of those who has been sailing classes that do 30 knots during racing I can say that it's not much different to racing Etchells and Lasers - that's why the winning afterguard last time came from that sort of boat. If you think that an AC trimmer and skipper just "talked shit" and did nothing in mono days then you have apparently never sailed with any of them. If you think that sailing slow monos is easy I invite you to show us your extensive trophy cabinet from such classes.

 

I must not express myself very well.

Grew up sailing slow one designs (laser, Star, Etchell) and still love them.

Now prefer to sail faster things, but will happily stooge around in just about anything that floats.

 

I just struggle with people who dislike the multies in AC and want to return to the good old mono days.

Once you realise what a DOG Challenge produces, to me they are the most logical boats for the AC.

I will be paying attention no matter what the AC is in.

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I have nothing against the boats themselves nor do I have any negative feelings against sailors wanting to make a living .

 

I just wish they had not chosen the Americas Cup for this experiment .

 

As can easily be seen by the downward spiral of the interest from the sailing community it's obviously not working .

 

What the AC has gained does not measure up to what it has lost .

 

JAR , one design, americas cup lite , who ever thought those terms would come up in the conversation of what was once the premier yachting event .

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I have nothing against the boats themselves nor do I have any negative feelings against sailors wanting to make a living .

 

I just wish they had not chosen the Americas Cup for this experiment .

 

As can easily be seen by the downward spiral of the interest from the sailing community it's obviously not working .

 

What the AC has gained does not measure up to what it has lost .

 

JAR , one design, americas cup lite , who ever thought those terms would come up in the conversation of what was once the premier yachting event .

 

Indeed. Very sad to see.

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The problem is Oracle Team USA, and now Softbank Team Japan are only Americas Cup Teams so they want to live off only the Americas Cup, which is why, for them, they need it to be a regular event. Burling and Tuke are successful 49er Olympic and World champions, Burling is also a former Moth World Champion, and also won the Swan River match race regatta recently in Australia. Ashby is one of the most successful multihull sailors in recent history, and still competes in the GC32 series. Camper with Emirates Team NZ also competed in the 2011/ 2012 Volvo Race. ETNZ have competed and been successful in the Audi Medcup TP52 class, as well as the Extreme 40. Oracle only compete in the Americas Cup because its the only regatta where they can outspend other teams. Otherwise they don't compete. Teams like ETNZ participate in multiple classes in multiple regattas around the world, which is why the Emirates Team New Zealand brand is so successful, and also why current, and potential sponsors are happy to sign on with them providing them continuity as a team. If Emirates Team New Zealand were to win the AC again, there would be no problems hosting a defence in New Zealand.

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ETNZ exists only to compete in the America's Cup.

 

Direct from Grant Dalton.

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The problem is Oracle Team USA, and now Softbank Team Japan are only Americas Cup Teams so they want to live off only the Americas Cup, which is why, for them, they need it to be a regular event. Burling and Tuke are successful 49er Olympic and World champions, Burling is also a former Moth World Champion, and also won the Swan River match race regatta recently in Australia. Ashby is one of the most successful multihull sailors in recent history, and still competes in the GC32 series. Camper with Emirates Team NZ also competed in the 2011/ 2012 Volvo Race. ETNZ have competed and been successful in the Audi Medcup TP52 class, as well as the Extreme 40. Oracle only compete in the Americas Cup because its the only regatta where they can outspend other teams. Otherwise they don't compete. Teams like ETNZ participate in multiple classes in multiple regattas around the world, which is why the Emirates Team New Zealand brand is so successful, and also why current, and potential sponsors are happy to sign on with them providing them continuity as a team. If Emirates Team New Zealand were to win the AC again, there would be no problems hosting a defence in New Zealand.

What a complete load of BS. Without the AC, ETNZ would fold. That comes straight from the top. Don't try equating what some team members do in their spare time with what the team does. They did sail other boats in order to keep the team together, when Oracle didn't need to because they were racing in the AC. You also seem to forget that OR did race other events, like the Extremes and that they owned 2. They stopped as soon as they got better toys.

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The problem is Oracle Team USA, and now Softbank Team Japan are only Americas Cup Teams so they want to live off only the Americas Cup, which is why, for them, they need it to be a regular event. Burling and Tuke are successful 49er Olympic and World champions, Burling is also a former Moth World Champion, and also won the Swan River match race regatta recently in Australia. Ashby is one of the most successful multihull sailors in recent history, and still competes in the GC32 series. Camper with Emirates Team NZ also competed in the 2011/ 2012 Volvo Race. ETNZ have competed and been successful in the Audi Medcup TP52 class, as well as the Extreme 40. Oracle only compete in the Americas Cup because its the only regatta where they can outspend other teams. Otherwise they don't compete. Teams like ETNZ participate in multiple classes in multiple regattas around the world, which is why the Emirates Team New Zealand brand is so successful, and also why current, and potential sponsors are happy to sign on with them providing them continuity as a team. If Emirates Team New Zealand were to win the AC again, there would be no problems hosting a defence in New Zealand.

What a complete load of BS. Without the AC, ETNZ would fold. That comes straight from the top. Don't try equating what some team members do in their spare time with what the team does. They did sail other boats in order to keep the team together, when Oracle didn't need to because they were racing in the AC. You also seem to forget that OR did race other events, like the Extremes and that they owned 2. They stopped as soon as they got better toys.

 

"Spare time" These guys are professional sailors! They get paid to sail! whether its in the AC, the GC32, the ESS or the 52 Super Series, sailing is their job. We'll never know who would exist without the AC, because it has always existed, but you don't see Oracle or Softbank Team Japan represented anywhere else but the AC, or if they ever did, they were never any good. At least the Kiwis won a few regattas outside the AC, is what I'm saying. And that much is true. ETNZ is a sailing brand, as well as an AC brand, Oracle is only an AC brand.

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The problem is Oracle Team USA, and now Softbank Team Japan are only Americas Cup Teams so they want to live off only the Americas Cup, which is why, for them, they need it to be a regular event. Burling and Tuke are successful 49er Olympic and World champions, Burling is also a former Moth World Champion, and also won the Swan River match race regatta recently in Australia. Ashby is one of the most successful multihull sailors in recent history, and still competes in the GC32 series. Camper with Emirates Team NZ also competed in the 2011/ 2012 Volvo Race. ETNZ have competed and been successful in the Audi Medcup TP52 class, as well as the Extreme 40. Oracle only compete in the Americas Cup because its the only regatta where they can outspend other teams. Otherwise they don't compete. Teams like ETNZ participate in multiple classes in multiple regattas around the world, which is why the Emirates Team New Zealand brand is so successful, and also why current, and potential sponsors are happy to sign on with them providing them continuity as a team. If Emirates Team New Zealand were to win the AC again, there would be no problems hosting a defence in New Zealand.

Jimmy Spitball spent the last two Boxing Days (before 2016/17) grinding at the back of Commanche.

Presumably he got his hands on the wheel at some stage too.

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Geo;

 

Thanks for clarifying that, and apologies for classifying you as one of the one-eyed two-hullers.

 

Although we'll never really know, after having read a hell of a lot about sailing in the days when the DoG was written, I'm firmly of the belief that the creators of the Cup did NOT think that it should normally be raced in "unlimited" DoG boats. We know that the boats used in the Cup for decades were just big versions of the standard regatta racing boat of their day, and that major AC figures such as Herreshoff, Lipton, Vanderbilt etc worked actively to ensure that the AC boats were NOT the biggest, most radical things around. Boats as significant in Cup history as Magic, Genesta, Galatea, Sappho, Valkyrie II, Vigilant, most or some of the Shamrocks, Endeavour I, Endeavour II, Vim and others were all used for "normal" regatta racing alongside similar boats that were never involved in the AC.

 

NY racing in the time when the Deed was written was all about class racing, not about mixed fleet racing or racing in unlimited boats. Even when it was first written the Deed prevented the fastest boat in the world, Maria, from racing as she was longer than the LWL limit. All that, and the actual words of the Deed, makes it appear that the authors primarily wanted the AC to be race in big "normal" yachts and that the "DoG match" was a last resort. Certainly the actions of people like Lipton, Vanderbilt, Herreshoff, Sopwith, Sears and Dunraven indicate that they believed that the AC should be sailed in boats that were inside the size, speed and design limits of "normal" regattas; the AC boats were not meant to be some separate breed like the current wingsailed foiling 50s and 72s are.

 

There's also the point that sports may benefit if the major events are held in gear that the typical participant can relate to. More people sail monos than wingsailed foiling multis. You could hop off the bow of a Benny 40.7 and fit onto the bow of a 12 Metre with no problems, but you can't hop off the bow of a Hobie 16 or Beneteau First 40 and feel at home on a current AC boat in the same way.

 

To some of us, even if we are cat sailors, all this (and the fact that the monos MADE the event for 150 years) means that you can say that the AC should not be sailed in cats - just like the way that the world motorbike championships should not be raced in cars. And one thing that has been proven is that the "new" AC is not bigger and certainly not better and it's not helping sailing in general or multis in particular like some people claimed it would. It's not sour grapes to say that it would have been better if it had stayed in monos, it's a reasonable and objective opinion.

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The problem is Oracle Team USA, and now Softbank Team Japan are only Americas Cup Teams so they want to live off only the Americas Cup, which is why, for them, they need it to be a regular event. Burling and Tuke are successful 49er Olympic and World champions, Burling is also a former Moth World Champion, and also won the Swan River match race regatta recently in Australia. Ashby is one of the most successful multihull sailors in recent history, and still competes in the GC32 series. Camper with Emirates Team NZ also competed in the 2011/ 2012 Volvo Race. ETNZ have competed and been successful in the Audi Medcup TP52 class, as well as the Extreme 40. Oracle only compete in the Americas Cup because its the only regatta where they can outspend other teams. Otherwise they don't compete. Teams like ETNZ participate in multiple classes in multiple regattas around the world, which is why the Emirates Team New Zealand brand is so successful, and also why current, and potential sponsors are happy to sign on with them providing them continuity as a team. If Emirates Team New Zealand were to win the AC again, there would be no problems hosting a defence in New Zealand.

What a complete load of BS. Without the AC, ETNZ would fold. That comes straight from the top. Don't try equating what some team members do in their spare time with what the team does. They did sail other boats in order to keep the team together, when Oracle didn't need to because they were racing in the AC. You also seem to forget that OR did race other events, like the Extremes and that they owned 2. They stopped as soon as they got better toys.

 

"Spare time" These guys are professional sailors! They get paid to sail! whether its in the AC, the GC32, the ESS or the 52 Super Series, sailing is their job. We'll never know who would exist without the AC, because it has always existed, but you don't see Oracle or Softbank Team Japan represented anywhere else but the AC, or if they ever did, they were never any good. At least the Kiwis won a few regattas outside the AC, is what I'm saying. And that much is true. ETNZ is a sailing brand, as well as an AC brand, Oracle is only an AC brand.

 

More BS. You go on about Burling and his 49er and Moth sailing. He is not paid as such for those events, although the NZ Olympic team might contribute to his costs with the 49er. Glenn has never been paid for his A Class sailing and only assistance with costs for the Olympic stuff.

 

As for whether ETNZ would exist outside of the AC, we do know they would not because Dalts has stated this. The other events were all in the name of the AC, to keep the team together or to gain useful experience or increase revenue to have more money for the AC. Dalts has also stated that if they didn't have enough money to do the AC, the team would fold because the reason for it isn't to do other events. Therefore, your whole argument is wrong.

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^^ The only AC team that actually fits sclake's "multi class/professional sailing team" fantasy scenario is AR.

OTUSA, SBTJ, LRBAR, GTF and yes even ETNZ exsist only to compete in the America's Cup. No AC, no need for a team.

AR exsists to fulfill TT's sailing fantasys, which right now are the AC and RC44, but in the past expanded to a number of different events. No AC, there will be RC44 and whatever IP talks TT into as long as he wants to stay.

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Geo;

 

Thanks for clarifying that, and apologies for classifying you as one of the one-eyed two-hullers.

 

Although we'll never really know, after having read a hell of a lot about sailing in the days when the DoG was written, I'm firmly of the belief that the creators of the Cup did NOT think that it should normally be raced in "unlimited" DoG boats. We know that the boats used in the Cup for decades were just big versions of the standard regatta racing boat of their day, and that major AC figures such as Herreshoff, Lipton, Vanderbilt etc worked actively to ensure that the AC boats were NOT the biggest, most radical things around. Boats as significant in Cup history as Magic, Genesta, Galatea, Sappho, Valkyrie II, Vigilant, most or some of the Shamrocks, Endeavour I, Endeavour II, Vim and others were all used for "normal" regatta racing alongside similar boats that were never involved in the AC.

 

NY racing in the time when the Deed was written was all about class racing, not about mixed fleet racing or racing in unlimited boats. Even when it was first written the Deed prevented the fastest boat in the world, Maria, from racing as she was longer than the LWL limit. All that, and the actual words of the Deed, makes it appear that the authors primarily wanted the AC to be race in big "normal" yachts and that the "DoG match" was a last resort. Certainly the actions of people like Lipton, Vanderbilt, Herreshoff, Sopwith, Sears and Dunraven indicate that they believed that the AC should be sailed in boats that were inside the size, speed and design limits of "normal" regattas; the AC boats were not meant to be some separate breed like the current wingsailed foiling 50s and 72s are.

 

There's also the point that sports may benefit if the major events are held in gear that the typical participant can relate to. More people sail monos than wingsailed foiling multis. You could hop off the bow of a Benny 40.7 and fit onto the bow of a 12 Metre with no problems, but you can't hop off the bow of a Hobie 16 or Beneteau First 40 and feel at home on a current AC boat in the same way.

 

To some of us, even if we are cat sailors, all this (and the fact that the monos MADE the event for 150 years) means that you can say that the AC should not be sailed in cats - just like the way that the world motorbike championships should not be raced in cars. And one thing that has been proven is that the "new" AC is not bigger and certainly not better and it's not helping sailing in general or multis in particular like some people claimed it would. It's not sour grapes to say that it would have been better if it had stayed in monos, it's a reasonable and objective opinion.

 

I am not going to argue with the history of the cup.

It is what it is. But it is a continuum, with constant change over time (hopefully for the better).

Soon there will be a whole generation of sailors who will never have experienced first hand a Cup race in anything else but a multihull. It will be the norm.

 

You cannot deny that under the bleeding edge, literal interpretation of the rules of the cup (ie a DOG Challenge) the resulting boat will be a multihull of some sort.

 

To me it is logical that the best boats to sail the cup are smaller, more accessible versions of the DOG boat ie pretty much what we have (still not convinced by wings or foils, but happy to see how these progress).

 

I can't see it going back to monos for the forseeable future, perhaps ever.

 

Many crews are gleefully jumping of all sorts boats onto the GC32s, M32s etc to experience differecne. Anyone who has sailed a moth, A Class or F18 seem to transition pretty easily (BYO helmet and padding).

 

If for years the rules have been poorly interpreted and the motorcycle race has mistakenly been raced in cars, then surely progressing onto the proper equipment is a good thing.

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Well, following the literal interpretation the AC would have been raced in steamboats from quite early on. Would that be a good thing? Would it have helped the sport of sailing? Isn't that an example of the fact that those who create rules cannot foresee every possible development in the future and that we should therefore interpret such rules by the spirit and not the letter?

 

Lipton, Vanderbilt, Herreshoff etc were not morons who misinterpreted the rules. They just understood what the drafters of the Deed were trying to do and they followed the intent of the Deed, rather than heading to the courts and trying to weasel their way around the desire of the donors. It is hard to imagine that we today understand what Schuyler and Stephens wanted better than those who actually knew them and who were part of the same sailing culture.

 

The Deed is written so that mutual consent is the norm, as has been the case in reality. A DoG challenge is the exception, not the intent.

 

Yep, there will soon be a whole generation who only know foiling multis in the Cup. They will only know the Cup as something completely out of their experience. Major sailing countries like Germany and the USA have only about 60 national-level active foilers of all types out of their active racing fleets of 30,000+ boats and basically no wingmasted foiling cats (and the numbers are growing with glacial speed if at all - the US Moth nationals fleet is halving each year) so the AC will become something that only a minute proportion of sailors will be able to really relate to.

 

Your point of view is reasonable, but so is that of those of us who think differently.

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If you want the America's Cup to be relatable to the average sailor, then it should be raced in 10 year old Catalina 38's, or the equivalent. The higher the performance, the fewer the number of sailors involved. Unlike us crazy multihull and skiff sailors, most sailors do not want to be thrown about or crash and burn while sailing, so they chose more sedate sailing. So, the higher the performance, the fewer the advocates.

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Well, following the literal interpretation the AC would have been raced in steamboats from quite early on. Would that be a good thing? Would it have helped the sport of sailing? Isn't that an example of the fact that those who create rules cannot foresee every possible development in the future and that we should therefore interpret such rules by the spirit and not the letter?

 

Lipton, Vanderbilt, Herreshoff etc were not morons who misinterpreted the rules. They just understood what the drafters of the Deed were trying to do and they followed the intent of the Deed, rather than heading to the courts and trying to weasel their way around the desire of the donors. It is hard to imagine that we today understand what Schuyler and Stephens wanted better than those who actually knew them and who were part of the same sailing culture.

 

The Deed is written so that mutual consent is the norm, as has been the case in reality. A DoG challenge is the exception, not the intent.

 

Yep, there will soon be a whole generation who only know foiling multis in the Cup. They will only know the Cup as something completely out of their experience. Major sailing countries like Germany and the USA have only about 60 national-level active foilers of all types out of their active racing fleets of 30,000+ boats and basically no wingmasted foiling cats (and the numbers are growing with glacial speed if at all - the US Moth nationals fleet is halving each year) so the AC will become something that only a minute proportion of sailors will be able to really relate to.

 

Your point of view is reasonable, but so is that of those of us who think differently.

 

Perhaps as a different example of the current direction of the AC we could look at the various automotive competitions .

 

Millions watch and follow NASCAR , NHRA , WRC , SCCA etc.

 

But there is one format that has some of the most technically innovative engineering , the most thrilling venues, amazing drama and all well covered via onboard and on site video and been around for decades yet in comparison to the other leagues relatively unheard of .

 

How many of you follow Hillclimb ?

 

A taste :

 

https://youtu.be/ufJuuILHgy0

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If you want the America's Cup to be relatable to the average sailor, then it should be raced in 10 year old Catalina 38's, or the equivalent. The higher the performance, the fewer the number of sailors involved. Unlike us crazy multihull and skiff sailors, most sailors do not want to be thrown about or crash and burn while sailing, so they chose more sedate sailing. So, the higher the performance, the fewer the advocates.

 

You could step off the front end of something like a Catalina 38 onto the bow of a 12 Metre and feel pretty much at home, and you could hop off a Benny 40.7 onto something like an IACC boat and feel pretty much at home. The trimming, gear and moves were similar. So the guy on the Catalina could really relate to the IACC boat or 12, and if the AC was still following its roots it would be being sailed in something like a "TP70" that the J/80 and Benny 40 guys could relate to and care about.

 

Yep, those of us who sail high performance boats are a very small minority, so it's not surprising that the vast majority of sailors don't care about the AC as they used to. The typical sailor no longer has a headline event to look up to, the headline event no longer has a fanbase, and just about everyone has lost out. There's even probably fewer pros involved, and you have to wonder about how marketable the skills of pros will become now that the AC guys are spending time learning skills that they cannot use in many other classes.

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WOD,

See wording of AC Deed below.

There is not much too it.

Pretty clear that it is to be in sailing boats and a friendly competition between nations.

Could never be in steam boats or anything else non-sail powered. (engines in 32 were questionable in my humble opinion)

This Cup is donated upon the condition that it shall be preserved as a perpetual challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries.

Any organized yacht Club of a foreign country, incorporated, patented, or licensed by the legislature, admiralty or other executive department, having for its annual regatta an ocean water course on the sea, or on an arm of the sea, or one which combines both, shall always be entitled to the right of sailing a match for this Cup with a yacht or vessel propelled by sails only and constructed in the country to which the challenging Club belongs, against any one yacht or vessel constructed in the country of the Club holding the Cup. The competing yachts or vessels, if of one mast, shall be not less than sixty-five forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water line; if of more than one mast, they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water line.

The challenging Club shall give ten months’ notice in writing naming the days for the proposed races; but no race shall be sailed in the days intervening between November first and May first if the races are to be conducted in the Northern Hemisphere; and no race shall be sailed in the days intervening between May first and November first if the races are to be conducted in the Southern Hemisphere. Accompanying the ten months’ notice of challenge, there must be sent the name of the owner and a certificate of the name, rig and the following dimensions of the challenging vessel, namely, length on load water line; beam at load water line, and extreme beam; and draught of water; which dimensions shall not be exceeded; and a custom-house registry of the vessel must also be sent as soon as possible. Vessels selected to compete for this Cup must proceed under sail on their own bottoms to the port where the contest is to take place. Centreboard or sliding keel vessels shall always be allowed to compete in any race for this Cup, and no restriction nor limitation whatever shall be placed upon the use of such centreboard or sliding keel, nor shall the centre-board or sliding keel be considered a part of the vessel for any purposes of measurement.

The Club challenging for the Cup and the Club holding the same may by mutual consent make any arrangement satisfactory to both as to the dates, courses, number of trials, rules and sailing regulations, and any and all other conditions of the match, in which case also the ten months’ notice may be waived.

In case the parties cannot mutually agree upon the terms of a match, then three races shall be sailed, and the winner of two of such races shall be entitled to the Cup. All such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands, as follows: the first race, twenty nautical miles to windward and return; the second race, an equilateral triangular race of thirty-nine nautical miles, the first side of which shall be a beat to windward; the third race, (if necessary), twenty nautical miles to windward and return; and one week day shall intervene between the conclusion of one race and the starting of the next race. These ocean courses shall be practicable in all parts for vessels of twenty-two feet draught of water and shall be selected by the Club holding the Cup; and these races shall be sailed subject to its rules and sailing regulations so far as the same do not conflict with the provisions of this deed of gift, but without any time allowances whatever. The challenged Club shall not be required to name its representative vessel until at the time agreed upon for the start, but the vessel when named must compete in all the races; and each of such races must be completed within seven hours.

Should the Club holding the Cup be for any cause dissolved, the Cup shall be transferred to some Club of the same nationality, eligible to challenge under this deed of gift, in trust and subject to its provisions. In the event of the failure of such transfer within three months after such dissolution, said Cup shall revert to the preceding Club holding the same, and under the terms of this deed of gift. It is distinctly understood that the Cup is to be the property of the Club, subject to the provisions of this deed, and not the property of the owner or owners of any vessel winning a match.

No vessel which has been defeated in a match for this Cup can be again selected by any club as its representative until after a contest for it by some other vessel has intervened, or until after the expiration of two years from the time of such defeat. And when a challenge from a Club fulfilling all the conditions required by this instrument has been received, no other challenge can be considered until the pending event has been decided.

AND the said party of the second part hereby accepts the said Cup subject to the said trust, terms and conditions, and hereby covenants and agrees to and with said party of the first part that it will faithfully and fully see that the foregoing conditions are fully observed and complied with by any contestant for the said Cup during the holding thereof by it; and that it will assign transfer and deliver the said Cup to the foreign yacht Club whose representative yacht shall have won the same in accordance with the foregoing terms and conditions, provided the said foreign Club shall by instrument in writing lawfully executed enter with said party of the second part into the like covenants as are herein entered into by it, such instrument to contain a like provision for the successive assignees to enter into the same covenants with their respective assignors, and to be executed in duplicate, one to be retained by each Club, and a copy thereof to be forwarded to the said party of the second part.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the said party of the first part has hereunto set his hand and seal, and the said party of the second part has caused its corporate seal to be affixed to these presents and the same to be signed by its Commodore and attested by its Secretary, the day and year first above written.

In the presence of H. D. Hamilton.
George L. Schuyler
The New York Yacht Club
by Elbridge T. Gerry, Commodore.
John H. Bird, Secretary
{Seal of the NYYC}

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