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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
ladymarmalade

Radio controlled sailing

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2 hours ago, dash34 said:

This is not confined to RC sailing, it is everywhere in the sport.

The difference is that everything happens faster in RC sailing.  More races, more opportunity to foul, less room between boats.

It's different and more prone to more disagreements.  More packing up and going home shit.

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2 hours ago, random said:

 

It's different and more prone to more disagreements.  More packing up and going home shit.

Been there done that....never felt bad about packing up and going home early when I felt I was wronged.   Sometimes it better to just leave when you are mad/angry lest you do something really bad.   With big boats,  you’d end up loosing your crew if you went home early every time you got upset.  

I stopped sailing with a close by club as a result of the ignorance of the rules, and general popusness of some of the members that can never be wrong.

most of the time I can shake it off,  but I’ve been to events where I hear the older guys making statements like “if someone protests you just keep sailing and act like you don’t hear it, you know I’m older and hard of hearing” and the second guy says “I thought I was the only one who did that”.

its possible that I just take it too seriously.  

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That behaviour is a blight on the sport.

Then there is the social element where friends collide and one says "Don't worry about it", this is collusion at the cost of those just behind.  When a similar occurrence with someone else happens and they are asked to do a penalty, well that means that the first guy is reasonable and the second is an arsehole.  In fact it is the reverse, the second was observing the rules.  I was running third when the first two boats made contact, I called them because they were just sailing on.  All hell broke lose.  Very unpleasant.  I was told it was none of my business, which of course it is my business.

One other example:  Person who is the "go to" guy for rules made loud contact with another boat then refused to do a penalty claiming that he was un-sighted at the time.  Then a leg latter collides with the same boat and again refuses to do a penalty using another stupid reason.  Not a lot of credibility left.

These days I call everything.  Too many times I have let a breach go (I broke a rule by not calling) e.g. see someone just graze a mark, only to have them cause trouble later in the race.  Karma is big in RC sailing.

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Really?  There are folks out there that don't get that RC sailing is just playing with little toy boats for pleasure?  Taking RC sailing seriously is a huge mistake, and anyone who does just doesn't get it. 

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1 minute ago, dash34 said:

Really?  There are folks out there that don't get that RC sailing is just playing with little toy boats for pleasure?  Taking RC sailing seriously is a huge mistake, and anyone who does just doesn't get it. 

I guess that's why there are World Titles and an industry supporting it.

 

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9 hours ago, dash34 said:

Really?  There are folks out there that don't get that RC sailing is just playing with little toy boats for pleasure?  Taking RC sailing seriously is a huge mistake, and anyone who does just doesn't get it. 

How is it any different than racing a J or a Full size laser or some sport boat.

why are they allowed to take it seriously we are not?

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48 minutes ago, Marcjsmith said:

How is it any different than racing a J or a Full size laser or some sport boat.

why are they allowed to take it seriously we are not?

For a start, you are actually ON the boat.  Toys, people, these are toys, and if you can't play nicely with your toys you should go home and do something else.

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1 hour ago, dash34 said:

For a start, you are actually ON the boat.  Toys, people, these are toys, and if you can't play nicely with your toys you should go home and do something else.

So does that make drones toys?  Perhaps space satellites as well, autonomous vehicles?

IOMs are not models of anything, they are 1m yachts and they are raced under RRS. 

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5 hours ago, dash34 said:
6 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

How is it any different than racing a J or a Full size laser or some sport boat.

why are they allowed to take it seriously we are not?

For a start, you are actually ON the boat.  Toys, people, these are toys, and if you can't play nicely with your toys you should go home and do something else.

Got that backwards IMHO. Sailboats are toys no matter what size they are. Recreational boats are also toys. They are for playing with. If you can't play nice with others, then you should find a different game or at the very least, go find other unpleasant people who cannot play nice, and shout at them

My experience racing a Soling in small RC clubs was pretty negative. If I were not doing it with my father, I would not have made it thru the first race. Dad and I sailed our models together for fun a dozen or so times, then he talked m into coming to a race day. I was requested to fill out a registration just like a regatta, sail number, etc etc, with a number of the members crowding around and offering what they thought of as helpful advice. Much of it was wrong anyway.

The wind was flukey with pretty strong gusts. As we approached the first start, I was cautioned to not mix in and get in the way of the "serious racers." Apparently at this club, all the serious racers barge and have no regard for the right of way rules. By avoiding a number of collisions at the windward end of the line, I rather easily took a lead and sailed the confusing course with one boat passing me. In another race, I sailed very wide around one of the bouys (this club sails very complicated courses using seven or eight marks) and even with the extra distance (made up for by catching several gusts) won. I was thrown out of this race on the grounds that I had not rounded the buoy. Out of the eight or nine races that day, I never finished lower than 4th out of about 15. I was told "You can't stand there, you can't walk the shore (although half the club was doing it), you can't blah blah (whatever I was doing at the time)." I had several guys bat me in the face with their antennae, got cussed at several times every race, and at the end of the day, I was scored with finishes no higher than 6th and ranging down to next to last. It was suggested by several of them that in the future, guests should have to pay a membership fee.

My only comment was to my father, showing him the finishes and saying "You saw me finish, right?" and he nodded yes, obviously embarassed. I shrugged it off an assured him that it was, and that I enjoyed racing (true) and that I was proud of him because he beat me in most of the races.

We went to another smaller club that races a mixed fleet, and they were not good with right-of-way either but they weren't as asshole-ish and they at least scored the finishes accurately. I bought everyone drinks (this club sailed where there is a mini store within a block). The other club we went to had a big class of Solings and another class of Dragon Somethings that all the Soling guys sneered at because they weren't "real" racing models. These guys were even worse than the first one.

My father has continued to be enthusiastic about sailing together but he has not continued to suggest that I join his club.

I would say that racing models entails several skills that you don't need with a real boat. There is no way to gain the sense of perspective about where you are headed relative to a another boat, or a mark, for example; other than sailing your model enough to gain that sense (I don't have it very well, yet). Because of the tiny scale, they handle gusts very differently. They react differently to pointing/footing. I would guess that each different model has a different set of polar speeds making VMG towards a mark different, plus you can't see your heading relative to a rhumb line very well. Being a good racing sailor has a lot of overlap, but they are quite different sports.

FB- Doug

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RC sailing has unique issues with the application of the RRS.  Many members not only do not have a workable understanding of the rules but deliberately do not invest the time to learn.  More than once I have heard to comment ... words to the effect of "The rules are so complicated and they conflict with each other anyway".  Mmmmmm.

Unless there is total acceptance that the rules will be applied then they will not be.  One sailor will forgive his friend but rave insult for the same infringement from someone else.  It can get to the point that calling for a penalty is taken as a personal attack.  There are only two actions that work in this culture.  The first is to apply the rules every time, eventually they (may) stay clear.  The second is the leave the club.

I saw one club decide that "over zealous application of the rules" was damaging the membership.  The result was that the appointed Race Officer would penalise according to experience.  Meaning that someone with the experience to know better will be asked to do turns while a beginner or non-competitive social sailor may not.  Not sure how people are supposed to learn using that approach.

If you think about it, rules cannot be over-applied.  They are applied or they are not.

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21 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Got that backwards IMHO. Sailboats are toys no matter what size they are. Recreational boats are also toys. They are for playing with. If you can't play nice with others, then you should find a different game or at the very least, go find other unpleasant people who cannot play nice, and shout at them

...

Not completely, big boats that accommodate people might be toys, but some are homes, and some are used for transportation. The degree to which things are toys depends a lot on what they are used for - achieving some useful purpose, or purely for obtaining pleasure - and also whether or not it is a model of something larger.   Some things are used for both and are both toys and not toys. RC sailboats are definitely toys - they are models of something larger and are purely used for pleasure.

4 hours ago, random said:

So does that make drones toys?  Perhaps space satellites as well, autonomous vehicles?

IOMs are not models of anything, they are 1m yachts and they are raced under RRS. 

As above, some drones are toys, some serve a useful purpose and are not toys.  Satellites are not toys, though there is a possibility that someone might someday launch a toy satellite.  And so on?

Of course, some will argue that obtaining pleasure is a useful purpose, but I think the point here is anyone who can't play nicely should go home, and that principle is even more applicable when there is so little at stake, like playing with model toy sailboats.  

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5 hours ago, dash34 said:

For a start, you are actually ON the boat.  Toys, people, these are toys, and if you can't play nicely with your toys you should go home and do something else.

 Some folks who can’t sail big boats anymore, this is their only way to stay active in the sailing/racing community.  A model sail boat is just like its full size counterpart....physics are all the same, by and large the available adjustments to the sails and rigs are the same.    I know that I’ve spent more on my rc boats than I ever did on my albacore. 

Go to a regional or National rc event you want to see good action....  yeah we are just racing for bowling trophies and bragging rights.  Same thing the big boat guys race for....  so not sure I see a huge distinction except for the size of the hole in the water where you toss your money.  And the fact that on any given race day I’ll have usually 14 starts and more than 50 mark roundings...  did I enjoy big boat racing more.....not sure if I enjoyed it more than the small boats,it’s just a different type of enjoyment.  

 

 

Steam, sorry your interactions with the clubs were so bad.   These are the same clubs that wonder why their membership never grows or folks don’t hang around for long.   I have found that sailing the rc boats is a bit more difficult than the big boats for the simple fact that you are not on the boat.  No seat of the pants feeling to the changes and adjustments.   Having good vision is a must and you’ve found the quickest way around the course is avoiding the raft ups at the marks...

enjoy the time with your dad.

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7 minutes ago, dash34 said:

and that principle is even more applicable when there is so little at stake

Not a lot at stake for most yachting events.  I have a 'real' bigger crewed boat and I sail RC.  Some doing the RC circuit are current Sydney-hobart crew.

Your analogy does not hold water mate.  All you have is an opinion, hold on to it, it's yours but if you want it to be ours as well ... try harder

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13 minutes ago, random said:

Not a lot at stake for most yachting events.  I have a 'real' bigger crewed boat and I sail RC.  Some doing the RC circuit are current Sydney-hobart crew.

Your analogy does not hold water mate.  All you have is an opinion, hold on to it, it's yours but if you want it to be ours as well ... try harder

Well, I was thinking in terms of personal committment and input.  The personal committment and input to sailing a real boat is much higher  - you have to gain real knowledge of the sport, train, purchase proper gear including safety gear, do some physical exertion, balance on a heeled over and moving deck, possibly endure waves coming on board, avoid falling overboard, avoid collisions with other boats that might do expensive damage etc. etc. etc.  With RC sailing you show up, put your boat together, wiggle the sticks on your controller, and worst case put on a raincoat if the weather isn't nice.  Sure, you need to know the basics of RRS but other than that not much to it.  Not discounting that there are some very talented RC sailors out there, but taking it to the point of getting angry is taking it too far IMHO.

BTW, it should be obvious, but I do both as well.  And yes, in my area some of the top sailors do RC.  We laugh a lot at our mistakes.

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A full kit for a new IOM will cost +$5,000 if you are serious.  Sometimes people can get a little animated when that is T-boned and cracked or sunk by someone not observing the rules intended to prevent that happening.

People travel the world doing this, professionals in the induustry, the last Worlds were in France early this year.

I spend more time on RC sailing than the bigger boat these days, because I enjoy it.  I'm over the local sailing scene, sometimes it's best to just move on. 

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12 minutes ago, random said:

A full kit for a new IOM will cost +$5,000 if you are serious.  Sometimes people can get a little animated when that is T-boned and cracked or sunk by someone not observing the rules intended to prevent that happening.

People travel the world doing this, professionals in the induustry, the last Worlds were in France early this year.

I spend more time on RC sailing than the bigger boat these days, because I enjoy it.  I'm over the local sailing scene, sometimes it's best to just move on. 

I would argue that people who are doing RC sailing at this level are not doing it for fun.  They are doing it because they have something to prove.  

This is why I recommend that those that are just out for fun stay away from the IOM fleet.  Each fleet is different, of course, and the one in my local area seems to be pretty laid back, but in general, IOM's are for type-A tinkerers, not for just-for-fun RC sailors.

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42 minutes ago, dash34 said:

They are doing it because they have something to prove.  

 

You argument gets thinner every time you qualify it, it sounds more like the rest of the sailing community.

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Dash,

let’s be honest. For most of us, racing rc boats or racing on boats, it is a hobby.  Ie we don’t make a living do this shit,  if you are gettting angry.  Then you are not having fun and if that’s the case it’s time to step back and reevaluate.  Because if you are not having fun, chances are you are the miserable prick that everyone complains about at the bar.

Folks who exclusively race their j24 or their dinghies or their sport boats, are playing with toys.  Big toys but toys none the less.

i feel im at the top of my game in the soling and the Victoria, im close in the rg65 but im not willing to spend a couple grand on the latest hull.  I look at the IOM as a challenge. And I am in no way in the same league as some of the other skippers I’ve sailed with in jersey and Florida.  Kind of like when I first started sailing rc boats a dozen years ago.  I enjoy sailing the IOM but not willing to spend the money on the latest and greatest hull.  I’m happy sailing it locally and being competitive locally.    You are correct about the type a personalities with that fleet.

Id enjoy picking up j22 or 24 and toying around with it at the local beer can races.  But id have to give up half a dozen rc “toys” for one big “toy”.   I think I’m ready for that, but not sure I’d get the same enjoyment from jumping back up to bigger boats...

and since you are an experienced skipper both big boats and rc,  you know its more than just showing up and twitching your thumbs around the course. If that’s all it was, then any newb could saddle up and be top of the heap first day out. You need to know how to tune the boat, manage the course, etc.  and while it’s very similar to big boat, it’s also different.

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34 minutes ago, Marcjsmith said:

Dash,

let’s be honest. For most of us, racing rc boats or racing on boats, it is a hobby.  Ie we don’t make a living do this shit,  if you are gettting angry.  Then you are not having fun and if that’s the case it’s time to step back and reevaluate.  Because if you are not having fun, chances are you are the miserable prick that everyone complains about at the bar.

Folks who exclusively race their j24 or their dinghies or their sport boats, are playing with toys.  Big toys but toys none the less.

i feel im at the top of my game in the soling and the Victoria, im close in the rg65 but im not willing to spend a couple grand on the latest hull.  I look at the IOM as a challenge. And I am in no way in the same league as some of the other skippers I’ve sailed with in jersey and Florida.  Kind of like when I first started sailing rc boats a dozen years ago.  I enjoy sailing the IOM but not willing to spend the money on the latest and greatest hull.  I’m happy sailing it locally and being competitive locally.    You are correct about the type a personalities with that fleet.

Id enjoy picking up j22 or 24 and toying around with it at the local beer can races.  But id have to give up half a dozen rc “toys” for one big “toy”.   I think I’m ready for that, but not sure I’d get the same enjoyment from jumping back up to bigger boats...

and since you are an experienced skipper both big boats and rc,  you know its more than just showing up and twitching your thumbs around the course. If that’s all it was, then any newb could saddle up and be top of the heap first day out. You need to know how to tune the boat, manage the course, etc.  and while it’s very similar to big boat, it’s also different.

Sure, but let's get back to how this discussion started and my initial assertion: getting angry and shouting in an RC race is silly because it is just toy sailing. My comment was prompted by someone complaining about this type of poor behaviour in their local fleet being a deterrent to RC sailing.   

Yes, no newb is going to saddle up and be at the top of the fleet on day one.  I missed a bunch of RC race days due to off-shore racing last year and it took 2-3 race days to get any sort of mojo back.  We have our local hotshots who are very difficult to beat.  But, being king or queen of toy sailing is just that.  No need to shout.

Getting angry and shouting in racing real boats is inappropriate.  Add ridiculous to that if you are angry and shouting in RC racing.

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My buddy and had a thing- if I fouled him- he punched me and vise versa- it was hilarious- one good thump to the arm and it was over- because, as you said, they’re toys and it’s for fun- 

 

other penalties included drinks, bottles of rum, dinners, etc...

we still laugh about it years afterwards....

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So, skipping past the "is it a toy" debate - can someone please tell me the key attraction to RC sailing? I'm not picking a fight, I'm just not understanding it outside the cost factor because (for me at least) the pleasure of sailing is in being on the water. Sure, fun to win a race, but that "winning" feeling can be sought MUCH cheaper than in boats (though admittedly the RC ones are somewhat cheaper to buy, store, and maintain :lol: ). Is it a nostalgia thing, remembering what it was like when you were on the water? 

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16 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

can someone please tell me the key attraction to RC sailing? I

If you like RRS starts and competition, you get lot's of it.  Instead of getting one start a weekend I can get 12 or more in a day.  I have learned more about sail and rig trim in RC than in decades on big boats.  This is because there is such a fast feedback loop.  Hard to change mains and spreader positions in a few minutes on my other boat even if I want to spend the money.

Can be cheap if you go for a OD class, but I have spent thousands on IOMs this last few years, after the boat purchase, looking for the edge.  Just depends on what you want out of it.  I wanted lots of racing with good competition.  It's highly addictive. 

Edit: they just had the NSW IOM Titles in your lake a couple of weeks ago.

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9 minutes ago, random said:

If you like RRS starts and competition, you get lot's of it.  Instead of getting one start a weekend I can get 12 or more in a day.  I have learned more about sail and rig trim in RC than in decades on big boats.  This is because there is such a fast feedback loop.  Hard to change mains and spreader positions in a few minutes on my other boat even if I want to spend the money.

Can be cheap if you go for a OD class, but I have spent thousands on IOMs this last few years, after the boat purchase, looking for the edge.  Just depends on what you want out of it.  I wanted lots of racing with good competition.  It's highly addictive. 

Edit: they just had the NSW IOM Titles in your lake a couple of weeks ago.

So, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's the "thrill of competition" that makes RC boats cool then? Which is cool and all. Just not my thing and I can say "thanks but no thanks" to an offer from an acquaintance on one of the boats. Competition isn't that big a thrill for me and I have enough expensive hobbies! :) 

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I use it to keep me sharp.  Very high maintenance load though, one hour maintenance for every hour sailing, or there abouts.  So the tinkering and problem solving is good too.

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2 hours ago, random said:

I use it to keep me sharp.  Very high maintenance load though, one hour maintenance for every hour sailing, or there abouts.  So the tinkering and problem solving is good too.


This is true for IOM and other development classes.  For strict one-design bullet-proof boats like RC Laser, there is virtually no maintenance other than remembering to charge batteries.  I replace my mainsheet about every 5 race days - takes 5 minutes.  If I get a ding on my keel bulb or rudder I sand it out - another 5 minutes.  New sails every 2-3 years, costs about $100 to replace the two that are used frequently.  That's it, unless you wear out a servo or get a leak in your deck. My servos are original and ten years old and in that time I have had to re-seal my deck once.

I looked at the DF65 the other day, it looks very simple to maintain as well, only one rig where the RC Laser has 4, but that might limit the wind range it can be operated in.

I like it because it requires intense concentration and it takes you away from all the rest of life's complications and troubles while you are doing it.  In addition, we have some of the best sailors around to compete against, making it very challenging to win and satisfying if you do.  Competition is very close and one little mistake will cost you 5 boats.  If you do make a mistake, you only have to live with it for 10 minutes or so until the next race starts.  With 15 races per day on average, you get three throwouts, and don't have to live with those massive brain-farts that happen sometimes.  It takes nothing to get ready to race vs. the big boat which requires of hours of maintenance constantly and hours of prep/delivery before every regatta.

We race mostly in the winter here, and almost all of us own big boats.  The weather is crappy in the PNW in the winter, lots of cold weather and rain, and it is much more pleasant to sail RC than it is to go out on the big boats.

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I've spent $2,000 on two IOMs not counting purchase price.  D65s are big lately and the DF95s are an alternative, lasers too.  Have to say that they do feel like toys compared to IOMs.

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2 hours ago, dash34 said:

I looked at the DF65 the other day, it looks very simple to maintain as well, only one rig where the RC Laser has 4, but that might limit the wind range it can be operated in.

 

Pretty disappointed with the quality of the fittings on the DF boats, some stainless rusting, some fittings breaking, but you only get what you pay for.  You can buy a new DF65 for about the same price as a new winch for an IOM.

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12 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

...    ...     ...

Steam, sorry your interactions with the clubs were so bad.   These are the same clubs that wonder why their membership never grows or folks don’t hang around for long.   I have found that sailing the rc boats is a bit more difficult than the big boats for the simple fact that you are not on the boat.  No seat of the pants feeling to the changes and adjustments.   Having good vision is a must and you’ve found the quickest way around the course is avoiding the raft ups at the marks...

enjoy the time with your dad.

Thank you, it's been great and I have every intention of continuing as long as he wants to.

There are certainly some worthwhile rewards to RC sailing. It's fun! It has  lot of knowledge in common with sailing "real" boats or big boats or ride-on boats, however you want to call them. For me, it's much quicker and easier to put the RC model in the water and sail around in the creek, it's got a much wider weather window, you can sit in the shade while doing it, and while I have spent what some would consider an unreasonable amount (~$600) on my model Soling 1m, it's nothing in "real boat" money. It's not even that much in guitar money  -_-

I think RC sailing as a sport suffers even more than yacht racing from letting the "serious racers" be the public face, the ones out front trying to recruit. All too many of them do have something to prove. I am quite sure that the problem I had was because I should have been the designated patsy and instead was kicking their asses. My father has some of the same issues trying to get the clubs to follow the RRS and I think there was some spillover resentment. But a write-down on finish scores is just a shitty childish thing to do. Either a new person / guest is welcome to race with your group, or he isn't.

If these guys were confronted with their behavior I'm sure they would be puzzled and not recognize themselves, they think they are trying to be welcoming. Reading the RC magazines, you can see many hints of the "something to prove" attitude, with condescending articles explaining the complexities (much of which is wrong, too). They can only publish what is submitted, sure.

The two biggest differences I have noticed between RC sailing and real sailing is the "thumbology" of handling the controller so that the boat does what you want, and in races, keeping track of which boat is yours. I would have done a little better in most races if I had not worked the thumbs furiously mumbling "not that way, you stupid boat" and suddenly realized I was looking at the wrong boat and that MY poor boat was indeed doing what I told it.

FB- Doug

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9 hours ago, dash34 said:

I looked at the DF65 the other day, it looks very simple to maintain as well, only one rig where the RC Laser has 4, but that might limit the wind range it can be operated in.

 

The DF65 class rules provide for multiple rigs - a new A+ for light winds and smaller rigs for heavy conditions.

John

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17 hours ago, dash34 said:

I would argue that people who are doing RC sailing at this level are not doing it for fun.  They are doing it because they have something to prove.  

This is why I recommend that those that are just out for fun stay away from the IOM fleet.  Each fleet is different, of course, and the one in my local area seems to be pretty laid back, but in general, IOM's are for type-A tinkerers, not for just-for-fun RC sailors.

Hi Tim,

I've sailed with your RC Laser fleet on several occasions and had a great time. Your guys are super friendly and good sailors too. And they even found me a boat to borrow. But I have to take exception with your comment about sailing-for-fun-stay-away-from-IOMs, because it's simply not true. The IOM guys are just as fun as your fleet.

The primary difference is that an RC Laser is nearly indestructible, and requires almost zero maintenance, and minimal tuning. So it's super easy to toss in the water and go sailing, then pack it up and go home and throw it in the garage (although I find it annoying that you can't pick it up out of the water by the mast). The IOM is much more refined, and has all the controls of a big boat to adjust sail shape and keep it optimized. And yes, there is some more maintenance required on an IOM. But somebody in this thread said 1-1 hours of maintenance to sailing, which is completely false. Most of the time I put my boat on its cradle, charge the batteries, and then put it in the car to go sailing the next week. And my IOM is wood, which supposedly requires more upkeep than the conventional fiberglass.

Going back to comments in this thread about yelling, that shouldn't be involved in ANY sailing; RC Laser, IOM, dinghy, keelboat, etc. I don't tolerate yelling in any sailing I do, and that includes the IOM fleet. Nobody yells, or I'm leaving. And I haven't really experienced any yelling at an IOM event, including four appearances a the Canadian National Championships where 20-30% of the competitors are travelling in from the US. With the exception of perhaps a few hundred people in the world, none of us make a living sailing. It has to be fun, or it's not worth doing. That said, following the rules is part of what makes it fun, whether it's a world championship event or a local club race. But no yelling.

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52 minutes ago, Nice! said:

But somebody in this thread said 1-1 hours of maintenance to sailing, which is completely false.

Perhaps you should just speak for yourself Nice.  People here sail between 3 to 4 times a week, all year round and that it the accepted rough number from experienced IOM people. 

If you are not working on your boat, changing sheet weights,  trying a new sail cut, checking for corrosion on servos and winch bottoms, replacing patches and checking solder joints, then you have probably stopped improving.

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Random,  on my soling and Victoria,  in the last two years. I’ve probably spent 4 or 5 hours on maintenance.  Sails are about 5 years old on the soling and the Victoria about 3.

this winter the soling going under for a refit.  New rig new sails, and sand/repaint.    Got some new booms for the IOM spare rigs and a month ago hung new jelicak(sp) sails on the primary #1 rig for the lintel   

Only put about 40 races on the IOM, 70 on the soling and Vic this past year and only about 30 on my argon rg65(new to me this summer)

I enjoy the tinkering aspect as well as racing (working on several build this winter) And I don’t really enjoy just sailing around the pond.  If we have two boats on the water, we are racing or tuning against each other.  If I had the healthy back and the money I’d be on a big boat...so for me having a little boat satisfies my needs (mostly) for having the deck under my feet....

following rrs is a must and helping new skippers learn the rules is trying, but worth the effort.

 

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1 hour ago, Marcjsmith said:

Random,  on my soling and Victoria,  in the last two years. I’ve probably spent 4 or 5 hours on maintenance.  Sails are about 5 years old on the soling and the Victoria about 3.

this winter the soling going under for a refit.  New rig new sails, and sand/repaint.    Got some new booms for the IOM spare rigs and a month ago hung new jelicak(sp) sails on the primary #1 rig for the lintel   

Only put about 40 races on the IOM, 70 on the soling and Vic this past year and only about 30 on my argon rg65(new to me this summer)

I enjoy the tinkering aspect as well as racing (working on several build this winter) And I don’t really enjoy just sailing around the pond.  If we have two boats on the water, we are racing or tuning against each other.  If I had the healthy back and the money I’d be on a big boat...so for me having a little boat satisfies my needs (mostly) for having the deck under my feet....

following rrs is a must and helping new skippers learn the rules is trying, but worth the effort.

 

I can certainly see the appeal, and I have always enjoyed working on boats. But I am frustrated at the teensy size of the Soling and not really interested in tweaking. I followed the tuning guide and made a few minor improvements.

Sailing is fun! Why would you -not- enjoy just sailing around the pond?

FB- Doug

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7 hours ago, Nice! said:

Hi Tim,

I've sailed with your RC Laser fleet on several occasions and had a great time. Your guys are super friendly and good sailors too. And they even found me a boat to borrow. But I have to take exception with your comment about sailing-for-fun-stay-away-from-IOMs, because it's simply not true. The IOM guys are just as fun as your fleet.

The primary difference is that an RC Laser is nearly indestructible, and requires almost zero maintenance, and minimal tuning. So it's super easy to toss in the water and go sailing, then pack it up and go home and throw it in the garage (although I find it annoying that you can't pick it up out of the water by the mast). The IOM is much more refined, and has all the controls of a big boat to adjust sail shape and keep it optimized. And yes, there is some more maintenance required on an IOM. But somebody in this thread said 1-1 hours of maintenance to sailing, which is completely false. Most of the time I put my boat on its cradle, charge the batteries, and then put it in the car to go sailing the next week. And my IOM is wood, which supposedly requires more upkeep than the conventional fiberglass.

Going back to comments in this thread about yelling, that shouldn't be involved in ANY sailing; RC Laser, IOM, dinghy, keelboat, etc. I don't tolerate yelling in any sailing I do, and that includes the IOM fleet. Nobody yells, or I'm leaving. And I haven't really experienced any yelling at an IOM event, including four appearances a the Canadian National Championships where 20-30% of the competitors are travelling in from the US. With the exception of perhaps a few hundred people in the world, none of us make a living sailing. It has to be fun, or it's not worth doing. That said, following the rules is part of what makes it fun, whether it's a world championship event or a local club race. But no yelling.

Cough, cough, we aren't supposed to out each other on the forums.....

Having said that the local IOM fleet seems to have a great attitude as you say.  We have invited them to come down, bring their boats and take advantage of our race course on Saturdays several times, and we hope they will take up this offer sometime.  

Nevertheless, as you point out there is quite a bit more to an IOM than most other boats.  There are many options for sails, foils, controls, etc. plus getting the trim right is (I imagine) a lot more complex than on an RC Laser.  I don't think you can just muck about with an IOM, I think you have to put something into it or you'll be perpetually last.  I equate "just for fun" with "just mucking about".  The IOM fleet may be a fun bunch of folks, but you also have to have the tinkering gene IMHO. 

However, my PM box is not full yet, and I'm more than happy to have you invite me along to a race to prove me wrong.  I'll even buy the beer.  IOM owners don't mind loaning their boats out to other people do they? B)

 

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Sailing is fun! Why would you -not- enjoy just sailing around the pond?

FB- Doug

It’s not like I hate just toying around the pond, but lots more fun with someone else....if I’m testing something out  I’ll head out alone, but it does not happen often  

if you think the bits on the soling are small don’t go with any smaller boats....we did the footy thing for a few years. Talk about small bits...  the rig bits on the rg65 are small as well...eyesight is still good,  fingers are getting fatter though...

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23 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

So, skipping past the "is it a toy" debate - can someone please tell me the key attraction to RC sailing? I'm not picking a fight, I'm just not understanding it outside the cost factor because (for me at least) the pleasure of sailing is in being on the water. Sure, fun to win a race, but that "winning" feeling can be sought MUCH cheaper than in boats (though admittedly the RC ones are somewhat cheaper to buy, store, and maintain :lol: ). Is it a nostalgia thing, remembering what it was like when you were on the water? 

I’m a high schooler, and my dad, younger brother and I all build our own boats to specifications that the current champion in our family writes (AC style). Last time we had 24” waterline boats of any design before 1940. (Pretty general, I know, but very even). I built a j class based on rainbow, the 1937 AC defender, my brother built a ketch with the hull style of a bluenose schooner, and my dad built a gaff schooner with a hull based on Reliance.  These radically different boats were incredibly close in speed, and the only reason I won the most recent edition was because I spent weeks testing sail settings and learning to sail it particularly fast.  It was fun, and also serious, and I learned more about how rigs worked, lessons that I continue to apply to big boat sailing.  The construction learning curve has been interesting too, from foam hulls with a thin layer of fibreglass to the boat I’m building for the next cup, using moulding and infusion with carbon fibre. The next one will be run in an open design 24” with unlimited sail area downwind, so hopefully we can see some really fast boats!

E278B69F-86E9-4EE2-8BAD-9C8F25EE0672.jpeg

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Out for a walk with the Dog on Sunday at Sail Newport. Watching the Frostbiters setting up. Saw a couple of IOM's out sailing.

I bought the Ed's DM2 a while ago to sail in NYC. Sailing there didn't work out for me as I wasn't there enough. Was thinking what to do with it recently.

Now I am going to sail it! Looks like we a seed fleet in Newport! Hope my batteries are still good....

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