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Nettles

Navtec finished?

90 posts in this topic

I just heard from someone who would know that Navtec has closed.

 

Anyone know anything?

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They are closed from what I heard.

 

Sucks that two went down this month.

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Confirmed closing.

 

And there's another, UNNAMED, northeast raceboat building company which will likely be shuttering their doors soon.

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Navtec France is still operational. Navtec USA is currently closed.

 

Website has not been updated yet. I'm sure it will be when the owners figure out how things will move forward.

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Someone could consolidate the industry very nicely by buying up Navtec and Hall and centralizing the production of each.

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Well this is a drag, but think about.

Standing rigging:

Wire they haven't done in a couple years maybe

Fiber they haven't stayed relevant in a while (nothing in the Vendee I remember hearing)

Rod they had a good market but have struggled to provide material. Some one probably will start making rod parts to compensate for the loss. Or BSI share goes up in the US

 

Hydraulics:

That's a bigger loss I think. Sure sailtec is a less expensive option, but not the best looking product. Harken looks great and you certainly pay for it. Yeah the existing stuff out there can still be serviced but if any parts need to be replaced...

 

We shall see.

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Someone could consolidate the industry very nicely by buying up Navtec and Hall and centralizing the production of each.

Consolidate the industry... the market share that both Navtec and Hall USA had was dick.

 

The potential to harvest bussiness Yes..

 

Said but J70's and C&C 30 aren't going to keep the industry going along with J boats.

 

Lets face it the sail industry is really hurting right now more than ever.

 

I hope the best to all of us still making a living at it.

 

Best.

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Well, last spring when I had a bunch of work done on my rod standing rigging, my rigger went with BSI because he said just couldn't get stuff from Navtec.

 

Hate to see it happen though. Hate the idea of the day when the industry has failed to point where maintaining our boats becomes simply impossible...

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They lost the rights to sell Dyform a few years back. Someone else had always owned the patent and pulled the pin. Shame. It was a great product.

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Someone could consolidate the industry very nicely by buying up Navtec and Hall and centralizing the production of each.

Consolidate the industry... the market share that both Navtec and Hall USA had was dick.

 

The potential to harvest bussiness Yes..

 

Said but J70's and C&C 30 aren't going to keep the industry going along with J boats.

 

Lets face it the sail industry is really hurting right now more than ever.

 

I hope the best to all of us still making a living at it.

 

Best.

There is only one aspect of the marine industry that is growing and that's the ego of some guys who get paid to sail.

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They lost the rights to sell Dyform a few years back. Someone else had always owned the patent and pulled the pin. Shame. It was a great product.

 

You can still get Dyform, it's now called Hammerpro or Hammersmith. Just re-rigged with it.

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Someone could consolidate the industry very nicely by buying up Navtec and Hall and centralizing the production of each.

Consolidate the industry... the market share that both Navtec and Hall USA had was dick.

 

The potential to harvest bussiness Yes..

 

Said but J70's and C&C 30 aren't going to keep the industry going along with J boats.

 

Lets face it the sail industry is really hurting right now more than ever.

 

I hope the best to all of us still making a living at it.

 

Best.

There is only one aspect of the marine industry that is growing and that's the ego of some guys who get paid to sail.

 

That is what killed the sport

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They lost the rights to sell Dyform a few years back. Someone else had always owned the patent and pulled the pin. Shame. It was a great product.

 

You can still get Dyform, it's now called Hammerpro or Hammersmith. Just re-rigged with it.

 

Compact Strand is essentially the same product. We've used lots and it is just as good or better than Dyform and readily available. Hayn is building common rod parts and doing a nice job with it. It has been years since Navtec has been able to provide a consistent supply of rod and parts so most distributors have found alternate sources. BSI makes a quality product, but they are more expensive than Navtec was. They are really busy since Navtec's demise, so lead times are getting longer. It will be interesting to see what shakes out. I know of at least one company that is interested in what remains of Navtec.

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I heard a rumor about a spar company buying them

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Hathaway Reiser and Raymond closed its doors back in November. They were in business since 1890!!

 

https://www.hathaways.com/

Sad

 

 

Sure is. Just shows how pressured all the "in close to NYC" maritime businesses are.... like the disappeared Brewer's yard in Stamford. Real estate is so valuable and costs and taxes are so high that all those businesses are at risk. Plus, North is such a juggernaut that its almost surprising Hathaways hung in as long as it did... though yeah, they were more of a rigging/hardware shop than pure loft.

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

The Universe doesn't revolve around 'merica.. Just so you know..

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

The Universe doesn't revolve around 'merica.. Just so you know..

 

Less and less every day...

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Well... on the bright side, the backstay insulators (among other things) are half off on the WM outlet webpage.

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

The Universe doesn't revolve around 'merica.. Just so you know..

 

All as you need do is look at GDP rankings to understand how important the health of the US economy is to a recreational activity like sailing. It is not a matter of how you feel about the US, it is a matter of how the American dollars fuels the world economy.

 

 

United States 18,561.934 24.7 1

China 11,391.619 15.1 2

Japan 4,730.300 6.29 3

Germany 3,494.898 4.65 4

United Kingdom 2,649.893 3.52 5

France 2,488.284 3.31 6

India 2,250.987 2.99 7

Italy 1,852.499 2.46 8

Brazil 1,769.601 2.35 9

Canada 1,532.343 2.04 10

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but sailing is a niche activity.., and all you have to do is take a quick look at europe to see that the european economy probably has a greater direct effect on the health of sailing-specific manufacturers than the US economy

 

they build and/or sell _many_ many more new larger sailboats in europe than in the USA

 

X-Yachts alone might sell 50 or more new boats a year 40ft and larger - how many US sailboat builders can say that?

 

how many new boats larger than 40ft has Jboats sold in the USA over the last 5 years? the new 121 is giving them some sales now, but the long term averages are low

 

now if you want to argue that the european economy hasn't been very strong either - you can.., but on the other hand boat sales have not fallen through the floor there - they are pretty strong

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

The Universe doesn't revolve around 'merica.. Just so you know..

 

All as you need do is look at GDP rankings to understand how important the health of the US economy is to a recreational activity like sailing. It is not a matter of how you feel about the US, it is a matter of how the American dollars fuels the world economy.

 

 

United States 18,561.934 24.7 1

China 11,391.619 15.1 2

Japan 4,730.300 6.29 3

Germany 3,494.898 4.65 4

United Kingdom 2,649.893 3.52 5

France 2,488.284 3.31 6

India 2,250.987 2.99 7

Italy 1,852.499 2.46 8

Brazil 1,769.601 2.35 9

Canada 1,532.343 2.04 10

 

 

The problem with statistics is they are just that.

The US dollar yes, but look where a lot (maybe most) of the items we rely on are made, engineered etc etc. Just because some knobs on Wall street convinced a bunch of wealthy blokes to buy profitable companies and siphon the cash back into the US, doesn't mean we rely on the US. It means we have been forced to indirectly fund a place that likes to think it is the center of the universe. It's pretty easy to control markets when just keep printing cash and racking up the worlds largest debt.....

 

Cars - Asia (I think my Mercedes was actually made in South Africa)

Whitegoods - Asia

Oil - Middle east/other places (We even have our own Oil rigs believe it or not!)

Food - Global, mainly local

Cell Phones - Asia

Your computer - Asia

Your Office desk - probably Mexico.

Your Office and house cleaner - Probably Mexico

 

I cant think of one thing I use in my day to day, or purchase, that is made in the US.. Maybe Californian Oranges when ours are out of season... Oh and Netflix.. oh and google, those guys are smart.

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It seems to me that the condition of sailing as an activity and industry in the USA has less to do with the overall health of the nation's economy than it does with social and cultural factors. Sure it's an expensive hobby, but definitely not out of reach for the middle-class on up; it's a matter of priorities. People have other things to choose to spend their money on. There seems to be no shortage of expensive luxury cars & SUVs on the road, and residential real estate is back into ludicrous bubble territory. There's lots of fun and expensive toys competing for our dollars.

 

Sailing is expensive enough that for most people, getting involved with it (as a boat owner) requires some significant sacrifices in other areas. And then even the small number of people who will make the sacrifice to get out on the water seem to prefer the instant gratification of a powerboat over the long learning curve and the patient finesse of sailing.

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

The Universe doesn't revolve around 'merica.. Just so you know..

 

All as you need do is look at GDP rankings to understand how important the health of the US economy is to a recreational activity like sailing. It is not a matter of how you feel about the US, it is a matter of how the American dollars fuels the world economy.

 

 

United States 18,561.934 24.7 1

China 11,391.619 15.1 2

Japan 4,730.300 6.29 3

Germany 3,494.898 4.65 4

United Kingdom 2,649.893 3.52 5

France 2,488.284 3.31 6

India 2,250.987 2.99 7

Italy 1,852.499 2.46 8

Brazil 1,769.601 2.35 9

Canada 1,532.343 2.04 10

 

 

The problem with statistics is they are just that.

The US dollar yes, but look where a lot (maybe most) of the items we rely on are made, engineered etc etc. Just because some knobs on Wall street convinced a bunch of wealthy blokes to buy profitable companies and siphon the cash back into the US, doesn't mean we rely on the US. It means we have been forced to indirectly fund a place that likes to think it is the center of the universe. It's pretty easy to control markets when just keep printing cash and racking up the worlds largest debt.....

 

Cars - Asia (I think my Mercedes was actually made in South Africa)

Whitegoods - Asia

Oil - Middle east/other places (We even have our own Oil rigs believe it or not!)

Food - Global, mainly local

Cell Phones - Asia

Your computer - Asia

Your Office desk - probably Mexico.

Your Office and house cleaner - Probably Mexico

 

I cant think of one thing I use in my day to day, or purchase, that is made in the US.. Maybe Californian Oranges when ours are out of season... Oh and Netflix.. oh and google, those guys are smart.

 

Ok Grumpus.

 

In 2015, U.S. net imports (imports minus exports) of petroleum from foreign countries were equal to about 24% of U.S. petroleum consumption, the lowest level since 1970.

 

The U.S. is the second largest manufacturer of cars in the world, after China.

 

FAKTS!

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It seems to me that the condition of sailing as an activity and industry in the USA has less to do with the overall health of the nation's economy than it does with social and cultural factors. Sure it's an expensive hobby, but definitely not out of reach for the middle-class on up; it's a matter of priorities.

 

yes - the economy goes through good periods and it goes through bad periods.., both here and in europe

 

particularly if you look at northern european countries.., they have more or less the same wealth as the USA

 

the difference is that no matter what the state of the economy at any given time.., europeans are willing to spend more of their money on buying sailboats than are americans

 

this is particularly true for the higher quality, mid size and larger boats that might be likely to use navtec equipment.

 

the difference between US and european sailing is largely due to cultural factors - as zzrider has said

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

There is always cycling for everyone once sailboat racing is officially dead

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this is particularly true for the higher quality, mid size and larger boats that might be likely to use navtec equipment.

 

the difference between US and european sailing is largely due to cultural factors - as zzrider has said

 

 

I thought for a moment that motorboats are much more popular in the US, instead of sailing. Then thought hey, oil prices differ greatly between US and Eu, but its only 1.67 to 0.67 a liter. (http://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/)

So maybe the Eu learn to sail as they are to cheap :)

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

There is always cycling for everyone once sailboat racing is officially dead

 

 

it's only dead in the usa

 

so, if you don't like cycling - just move!

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

There is always cycling for everyone once sailboat racing is officially dead

 

 

it's only dead in the usa

 

so, if you don't like cycling - just move!

 

True

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

There is always cycling for everyone once sailboat racing is officially dead

it's only dead in the usa

 

so, if you don't like cycling - just move!

True
When does Cycling Anarchy launch?

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

There is always cycling for everyone once sailboat racing is officially dead

it's only dead in the usa

 

so, if you don't like cycling - just move!

True
When does Cycling Anarchy launch?

 

I really have a hard time not to turn my comments to some on Strava into what I would say on SA

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

The Universe doesn't revolve around 'merica.. Just so you know..

 

All as you need do is look at GDP rankings to understand how important the health of the US economy is to a recreational activity like sailing. It is not a matter of how you feel about the US, it is a matter of how the American dollars fuels the world economy.

 

 

United States 18,561.934 24.7 1

China 11,391.619 15.1 2

Japan 4,730.300 6.29 3

Germany 3,494.898 4.65 4

United Kingdom 2,649.893 3.52 5

France 2,488.284 3.31 6

India 2,250.987 2.99 7

Italy 1,852.499 2.46 8

Brazil 1,769.601 2.35 9

Canada 1,532.343 2.04 10

 

 

The problem with statistics is they are just that.

The US dollar yes, but look where a lot (maybe most) of the items we rely on are made, engineered etc etc. Just because some knobs on Wall street convinced a bunch of wealthy blokes to buy profitable companies and siphon the cash back into the US, doesn't mean we rely on the US. It means we have been forced to indirectly fund a place that likes to think it is the center of the universe. It's pretty easy to control markets when just keep printing cash and racking up the worlds largest debt.....

 

Cars - Asia (I think my Mercedes was actually made in South Africa)

Whitegoods - Asia

Oil - Middle east/other places (We even have our own Oil rigs believe it or not!)

Food - Global, mainly local

Cell Phones - Asia

Your computer - Asia

Your Office desk - probably Mexico.

Your Office and house cleaner - Probably Mexico

 

I cant think of one thing I use in my day to day, or purchase, that is made in the US.. Maybe Californian Oranges when ours are out of season... Oh and Netflix.. oh and google, those guys are smart.

 

Ok Grumpus.

 

In 2015, U.S. net imports (imports minus exports) of petroleum from foreign countries were equal to about 24% of U.S. petroleum consumption, the lowest level since 1970.

 

The U.S. is the second largest manufacturer of cars in the world, after China.

 

FAKTS!

 

if boasting about oil and how many cars you make is the measure of greatness then you still arent #1.. Not even close when it comes to manufacturing.

 

In 16 years, your Car manufacturing has had Zero growth. And china has smashed you out of the park.

Not to mention you guys spell words wrong...

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Not bragging just quoting some stats. Just adding some colour to the theatre that is SA.

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Hathaway Reiser and Raymond closed its doors back in November. They were in business since 1890!!

 

https://www.hathaways.com/

 

What a bummer. I grew up nearby and visiting there as a kid was always a treat (it got more expensive to visit as an adult).

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

The Universe doesn't revolve around 'merica.. Just so you know..

All as you need do is look at GDP rankings to understand how important the health of the US economy is to a recreational activity like sailing. It is not a matter of how you feel about the US, it is a matter of how the American dollars fuels the world economy.

 

 

United States 18,561.934 24.7 1

China 11,391.619 15.1 2

Japan 4,730.300 6.29 3

Germany 3,494.898 4.65 4

United Kingdom 2,649.893 3.52 5

France 2,488.284 3.31 6

India 2,250.987 2.99 7

Italy 1,852.499 2.46 8

Brazil 1,769.601 2.35 9

Canada 1,532.343 2.04 10

 

The problem with statistics is they are just that.

The US dollar yes, but look where a lot (maybe most) of the items we rely on are made, engineered etc etc. Just because some knobs on Wall street convinced a bunch of wealthy blokes to buy profitable companies and siphon the cash back into the US, doesn't mean we rely on the US. It means we have been forced to indirectly fund a place that likes to think it is the center of the universe. It's pretty easy to control markets when just keep printing cash and racking up the worlds largest debt.....

 

Cars - Asia (I think my Mercedes was actually made in South Africa)

Whitegoods - Asia

Oil - Middle east/other places (We even have our own Oil rigs believe it or not!)

Food - Global, mainly local

Cell Phones - Asia

Your computer - Asia

Your Office desk - probably Mexico.

Your Office and house cleaner - Probably Mexico

 

I cant think of one thing I use in my day to day, or purchase, that is made in the US.. Maybe Californian Oranges when ours are out of season... Oh and Netflix.. oh and google, those guys are smart.

Ok Grumpus.

 

In 2015, U.S. net imports (imports minus exports) of petroleum from foreign countries were equal to about 24% of U.S. petroleum consumption, the lowest level since 1970.

 

The U.S. is the second largest manufacturer of cars in the world, after China.

 

FAKTS!

if boasting about oil and how many cars you make is the measure of greatness then you still arent #1.. Not even close when it comes to manufacturing.

 

In 16 years, your Car manufacturing has had Zero growth. And china has smashed you out of the park.

Not to mention you guys spell words wrong...

 

 

Absolute and utter nonsense.

 

The US manufacturing sector actually set a new record for output last year, and continues to grow. We produce more now than we ever have, and the numbers keep going up.

 

Sure we import massive amounts of petroleum, but we also export a huge percentage of the worlds refined products like gas, diesel, and fuel oil.

 

Chine does a lot of the final assembly, but about 75% of computer chips are made in the US. Because that's how modern supply lines work. The US makes the chips Andrew glass, Germany does the cases, Mexico builds the o-rings, and Chinese labor does final assembly, but the high dollar and very difficult manufacturing processes are done in the US.

 

We don't produce huge amounts of mid grade steel anymore, but one of our largest sectors is still producing high quality specialized steal for infrastructure. If you want or need spec steel the US is still the place to get it. Which is why Hyundai Steel built a massive plant in Alabama making steel for the auto industry. Mini-mills turning out high spec steel makes up about 65% of our steel production, generating $120 billion in sales a year.

 

 

The fact is that the US manufacturing sector has a massive global reach, what has changed is the introduction of robotics in US factories. You simply don't need as many people to operate machinery as you once did. My first job, moving metal parts from one machine to another in a factory, is simply not done by hand anymore and never will be again, at least in the US.

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The fact is that the US manufacturing sector has a massive global reach, what has changed is the introduction of robotics in US factories. You simply don't need as many people to operate machinery as you once did. My first job, moving metal parts from one machine to another in a factory, is simply not done by hand anymore and never will be again, at least in the US.

 

 

Yep, I had one of those jobs too. And spent half the time thinking of how easy it would be to make a machine to do that work. I was basically replaced by a pump. But by that time had moved up to QC.

The funny thing is, I drive by that factory today and there are huge banners up along the interstate in English and Spanish, "Workers Needed!" They just can't get anybody to do the work. Of course the pay is shit. As soon as machine vision picks up a notch, that place will go to total automation.

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Ah now lads. To many actual facts for one evening. Do you mind?

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True
When does Cycling Anarchy launch?

 

triathlon saved me a ton of money over sailing. I drink less, I don't have to buy drinks for crew and my bike while possibly costing the same as my J44 Mainsail, lasts much longer AND has resale. value...

 

@johnny - there IS the bike equivilant of SA, not sure what it is, in triathlon, it's called slowtwitch and the beatings are much much more intense!

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The fact is that the US manufacturing sector has a massive global reach, what has changed is the introduction of robotics in US factories. You simply don't need as many people to operate machinery as you once did. My first job, moving metal parts from one machine to another in a factory, is simply not done by hand anymore and never will be again, at least in the US.

 

 

Yep, I had one of those jobs too. And spent half the time thinking of how easy it would be to make a machine to do that work. I was basically replaced by a pump. But by that time had moved up to QC.

The funny thing is, I drive by that factory today and there are huge banners up along the interstate in English and Spanish, "Workers Needed!" They just can't get anybody to do the work. Of course the pay is shit. As soon as machine vision picks up a notch, that place will go to total automation.

My job was later replaced with a conveyor belt, at least you got a pump.

 

When I think of the loss of manufacturing jobs that's what I always remember... I go to paid $10/hr in ~1992 to be a conveyor belt, not bad wages for rural Mississippi. The guy to my right was a welder and made $20 or so, his job was to apply four welds. The exact same four welds over and over all day long (seat tabs on stack chairs).

 

Both of our jobs are now probably being done by robots, or labor that's so cheap it doesn't matter, but those jobs are never going to come back, their is just not enough value added to the proposition. And robots don't get boared making the same weld hundreds of times a day, four days a week, fourty eight weeks a year, for twenty five years, and don't expect a retirement package when they can't work any more.

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So who makes Nitronic rod now?

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Finally.

 

Neither NavTec or Navionics deserve to survive.

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Sorry to see Navtec go. I used a lot of their rod. The Valiant 40's were standard with Navtec after hull No 5 as I recall. We had one failure due to an improperly installed backstay unsulator.

At the least the Navtec catalog was an excellent resource. I still have mine.

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True
When does Cycling Anarchy launch?

 

triathlon saved me a ton of money over sailing. I drink less, I don't have to buy drinks for crew and my bike while possibly costing the same as my J44 Mainsail, lasts much longer AND has resale. value...

 

@johnny - there IS the bike equivilant of SA, not sure what it is, in triathlon, it's called slowtwitch and the beatings are much much more intense!

 

And you get the hang out and ride with me now.

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Sorry to see Navtec go. I used a lot of their rod. The Valiant 40's were standard with Navtec after hull No 5 as I recall. We had one failure due to an improperly installed backstay unsulator.

At the least the Navtec catalog was an excellent resource. I still have mine.

With the Zeus tables ....

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So who makes Nitronic rod now?

BSI. Bsidk.com

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Nitronic 50 rod comes on spools. Many specialty steel foundries (and there are a lot of those in the USA) make that stuff.

 

Making rod rigging from the raw material on a spool is straightforward, so a lot of rigging shops (or even just a few) can get the rod straightening equipment (standard industrial stuff) and the head forming equipment (also standard industrial stuff) to make replacement or new rod.

 

The other bits and pieces are not commodity bulk items, but were CNC machined. Sure would be excellent if Navtec open sourced their CNC programs. That would be the way to properly respect decades of customers.

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My source with knowledge of the deal says that there's a Midwest company with interest in buying navtec

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When does Cycling Anarchy launch?

 

triathlon saved me a ton of money over sailing. I drink less, I don't have to buy drinks for crew and my bike while possibly costing the same as my J44 Mainsail, lasts much longer AND has resale. value...

 

@johnny - there IS the bike equivilant of SA, not sure what it is, in triathlon, it's called slowtwitch and the beatings are much much more intense!

 

 

 

John dishing it out over on Slowtwitch....epic!

 

I can't stand that place. I thought SA place was bad. Just a bunch of middle aged men complaining about M-dot, drafting rules, supplemental T, Lance, course cutting, etc... Bunch of whiney babies that get drunk after 2 light beers.

 

Scott, what are you riding that costs as much as a J44 main!??

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True
When does Cycling Anarchy launch?

 

triathlon saved me a ton of money over sailing. I drink less, I don't have to buy drinks for crew and my bike while possibly costing the same as my J44 Mainsail, lasts much longer AND has resale. value...

 

@johnny - there IS the bike equivilant of SA, not sure what it is, in triathlon, it's called slowtwitch and the beatings are much much more intense!

 

 

Bring the Brown Eyed Girl back!!!!!

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Nitronic 50 rod comes on spools. Many specialty steel foundries (and there are a lot of those in the USA) make that stuff.

 

Making rod rigging from the raw material on a spool is straightforward, so a lot of rigging shops (or even just a few) can get the rod straightening equipment (standard industrial stuff) and the head forming equipment (also standard industrial stuff) to make replacement or new rod.

 

The other bits and pieces are not commodity bulk items, but were CNC machined. Sure would be excellent if Navtec open sourced their CNC programs. That would be the way to properly respect decades of customers.

 

With the exception of the big stuff I don't recall ever seeing a straight piece of rod out of Navtec......

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Nitronic 50 rod comes on spools. Many specialty steel foundries (and there are a lot of those in the USA) make that stuff.

 

Making rod rigging from the raw material on a spool is straightforward, so a lot of rigging shops (or even just a few) can get the rod straightening equipment (standard industrial stuff) and the head forming equipment (also standard industrial stuff) to make replacement or new rod.

 

The other bits and pieces are not commodity bulk items, but were CNC machined. Sure would be excellent if Navtec open sourced their CNC programs. That would be the way to properly respect decades of customers.

 

With the exception of the big stuff I don't recall ever seeing a straight piece of rod out of Navtec......

 

 

Load it up. Looks straight now.

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Sorry to see Navtec go. I used a lot of their rod. The Valiant 40's were standard with Navtec after hull No 5 as I recall. We had one failure due to an improperly installed backstay unsulator.

At the least the Navtec catalog was an excellent resource. I still have mine.+1+

+1

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Straight rod? we had to commission a new Farr 50 out of Hong Kong. Brand new boat, got shipped in to Hawaii for Clipper Cup. Unfortunately was loaded inside a hold, and hatch cover mechanism dripped grease on it the entire way. Had to pressure wash the deck to be able to stand up on it. Thought that was bad until we put the rig together - the rod had not really been straightened & the vertical hung from the spreaders like a spring - 7' off the deck. Had to winch the ends down to the turnbuckles. Turned out the owner was screwy also, only got paid the day before the series started, after we ran a length of 1/2" 1x19 around the dock, between the hull & shaft, & thru the wheel, nico pressing the ends together.

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It isn't the pros or the egos that have killed the sailing industry. It is the economy stupid! The sailing industry has always had boom and bust cycles directly tied to America's economic prosperity. America has just gone through a lost decade and certain aspects of the industry just could not hold on until the next boom cycle.

If you want to know how the economy is doing, just look at the marine industry.

The Universe doesn't revolve around 'merica.. Just so you know..

All as you need do is look at GDP rankings to understand how important the health of the US economy is to a recreational activity like sailing. It is not a matter of how you feel about the US, it is a matter of how the American dollars fuels the world economy.

 

 

United States 18,561.934 24.7 1

China 11,391.619 15.1 2

Japan 4,730.300 6.29 3

Germany 3,494.898 4.65 4

United Kingdom 2,649.893 3.52 5

France 2,488.284 3.31 6

India 2,250.987 2.99 7

Italy 1,852.499 2.46 8

Brazil 1,769.601 2.35 9

Canada 1,532.343 2.04 10

 

The problem with statistics is they are just that.

The US dollar yes, but look where a lot (maybe most) of the items we rely on are made, engineered etc etc. Just because some knobs on Wall street convinced a bunch of wealthy blokes to buy profitable companies and siphon the cash back into the US, doesn't mean we rely on the US. It means we have been forced to indirectly fund a place that likes to think it is the center of the universe. It's pretty easy to control markets when just keep printing cash and racking up the worlds largest debt.....

 

Cars - Asia (I think my Mercedes was actually made in South Africa)

Whitegoods - Asia

Oil - Middle east/other places (We even have our own Oil rigs believe it or not!)

Food - Global, mainly local

Cell Phones - Asia

Your computer - Asia

Your Office desk - probably Mexico.

Your Office and house cleaner - Probably Mexico

 

I cant think of one thing I use in my day to day, or purchase, that is made in the US.. Maybe Californian Oranges when ours are out of season... Oh and Netflix.. oh and google, those guys are smart.

Ok Grumpus.

 

In 2015, U.S. net imports (imports minus exports) of petroleum from foreign countries were equal to about 24% of U.S. petroleum consumption, the lowest level since 1970.

 

The U.S. is the second largest manufacturer of cars in the world, after China.

 

FAKTS!

if boasting about oil and how many cars you make is the measure of greatness then you still arent #1.. Not even close when it comes to manufacturing.

 

In 16 years, your Car manufacturing has had Zero growth. And china has smashed you out of the park.

Not to mention you guys spell words wrong...

 

 

Absolute and utter nonsense.

 

The US manufacturing sector actually set a new record for output last year, and continues to grow. We produce more now than we ever have, and the numbers keep going up.

 

Sure we import massive amounts of petroleum, but we also export a huge percentage of the worlds refined products like gas, diesel, and fuel oil.

 

Chine does a lot of the final assembly, but about 75% of computer chips are made in the US. Because that's how modern supply lines work. The US makes the chips Andrew glass, Germany does the cases, Mexico builds the o-rings, and Chinese labor does final assembly, but the high dollar and very difficult manufacturing processes are done in the US.

 

We don't produce huge amounts of mid grade steel anymore, but one of our largest sectors is still producing high quality specialized steal for infrastructure. If you want or need spec steel the US is still the place to get it. Which is why Hyundai Steel built a massive plant in Alabama making steel for the auto industry. Mini-mills turning out high spec steel makes up about 65% of our steel production, generating $120 billion in sales a year.

 

 

The fact is that the US manufacturing sector has a massive global reach, what has changed is the introduction of robotics in US factories. You simply don't need as many people to operate machinery as you once did. My first job, moving metal parts from one machine to another in a factory, is simply not done by hand anymore and never will be again, at least in the US.

I just read that China is really pissed because it can't manufacture the tiny ball bearing used in the tip of ball point pens. They obviously make shit loads of pens, but they have to import the balls from the US, Germany or Japan. It explains why their cartridge bearings are also shite.

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... BSI makes a quality product, but they are more expensive than Navtec was. They are really busy since Navtec's demise, so lead times are getting longer. ...

 

I can confirm that since I've been waiting for my rod order from BSI going on 7 weeks now. 2-3 months since my rigger first gave them the preliminary order. Shocking since we expected the rerig to take 3 weeks, and had done a month of planning to ensure BSI had all the parts ready to go (even after that, they didn't). Now that I know about the Navtec news this explains things a bit.

Sadly, rod rigging is a niche market inside a niche market (sailboat rigging is already a niche market, since it's small potatoes compared to what most of the world is using wire for - bridges and architectural stuff).

The biggest takeaway I've had is to more seriously consider doing a wire conversion next time and/or avoiding rod if I ever buy a new boat. One distributor is not good for competitiveness and availability.

 

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GDP of California - US$2.4 trillion. GDP of Australia - US$1.2 trillion (source, IMF 2015).

 

Just the fact that GDPs are always quoted in USD is all you need to know. Ever heard the worlds GDPs quoted in Renminbi? Even the Chinese don't do that.

 

Too bad about Navtec. I hope someone will at least pick up the spares business for those of us with Navtec cylinders and panels.

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Too bad about Navtec. I hope someone will at least pick up the spares business for those of us with Navtec cylinders and panels.

Having been in engineering for generations -- oil, refrigeration, aerospace, software, sails, rigging -- my family has learned over and over that service business beats the living hell out of creation business. Service is parts and labor, and the last customer engagement has a big impact on the next engagement (you own your future). Creation requires risk, and the last customer engagement has surprisingly little influence over the next engagement (you don't own your future).

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True
When does Cycling Anarchy launch?

 

triathlon saved me a ton of money over sailing. I drink less, I don't have to buy drinks for crew and my bike while possibly costing the same as my J44 Mainsail, lasts much longer AND has resale. value...

 

@johnny - there IS the bike equivilant of SA, not sure what it is, in triathlon, it's called slowtwitch and the beatings are much much more intense!

 

 

Bring the Brown Eyed Girl back!!!!!

 

I don't think that will ever happen again, he won't even set foot on a sailboat.

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Too bad about Navtec. I hope someone will at least pick up the spares business for those of us with Navtec cylinders and panels.

Having been in engineering for generations -- oil, refrigeration, aerospace, software, sails, rigging -- my family has learned over and over that service business beats the living hell out of creation business. Service is parts and labor, and the last customer engagement has a big impact on the next engagement (you own your future). Creation requires risk, and the last customer engagement has surprisingly little influence over the next engagement (you don't own your future).

 

I wish that I had learned that 43 years ago. I guess that I liked sailing too much.

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Crash, your family must be idiots, you have it completely backwards. Go look at the Fortune 100 and find me a parts-and-labor company.

 

Sure, product development has risks - but no risk, no reward.

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Someone could consolidate the industry very nicely by buying up Navtec and Hall and centralizing the production of each.

Consolidate the industry... the market share that both Navtec and Hall USA had was dick.

 

The potential to harvest bussiness Yes..

 

Said but J70's and C&C 30 aren't going to keep the industry going along with J boats.

 

Lets face it the sail industry is really hurting right now more than ever.

 

I hope the best to all of us still making a living at it.

 

Best.

There is only one aspect of the marine industry that is growing and that's the ego of some guys who get paid to sail.

 

That is what killed the sport

 

Nah, it's the lack of a feeder pathway, starting from age 10.

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True
When does Cycling Anarchy launch?

 

triathlon saved me a ton of money over sailing. I drink less, I don't have to buy drinks for crew and my bike while possibly costing the same as my J44 Mainsail, lasts much longer AND has resale. value...

 

@johnny - there IS the bike equivilant of SA, not sure what it is, in triathlon, it's called slowtwitch and the beatings are much much more intense!

 

 

Bring the Brown Eyed Girl back!!!!!

 

I don't think that will ever happen again, he won't even set foot on a sailboat.

 

To answer all Questions -

1-Slowtwitch, like SA has useful, non useful, and a greater number of beer and popcorn threads - johnny would get thrashed there

2-divorced the Brown eyed Bitch 7 years ago - being single late 40s and in shape has many benefits :D

3-helped put together the Arbella program after I sold BeG (wish she told me about the divorce a year earlier, i'd have kept it to live on) I stepped aside a month before Bermuda, went on an ideal 18 a year later for one day of racing and haven't been on a sailboat since

4-J44 3DL main around time of my exit was about $10k. I don't pay retail for bikes, but I use a P5 for tri, an Swork's 29er hardtail for trail (Leadville MTB100), just ordered an F10 for road. Thinking of trading the P5 for a ventum, but see no real gains. btw, i have 3 wheelsets for the P5, alum, 404 or 808 front, 808 or disc rear. (lots of really good quality pre-owned stuff out there for a song)

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nobody has a long term bet on the EU but the USA can power away from the rest with the right management

Name an EU boat builder that hasnt received state aid at one time or another? ( even when the hulls were made in eastern europe)

Trump has a gift of the USA being self sufficient in power/oil/gas etc

I think the rest of the world is in for a few shocks when he levels the playing field ( asia wont be pretty)

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True
When does Cycling Anarchy launch?

 

triathlon saved me a ton of money over sailing. I drink less, I don't have to buy drinks for crew and my bike while possibly costing the same as my J44 Mainsail, lasts much longer AND has resale. value...

 

@johnny - there IS the bike equivilant of SA, not sure what it is, in triathlon, it's called slowtwitch and the beatings are much much more intense!

 

 

Bring the Brown Eyed Girl back!!!!!

 

I don't think that will ever happen again, he won't even set foot on a sailboat.

 

To answer all Questions -

1-Slowtwitch, like SA has useful, non useful, and a greater number of beer and popcorn threads - johnny would get thrashed there

2-divorced the Brown eyed Bitch 7 years ago - being single late 40s and in shape has many benefits :D

3-helped put together the Arbella program after I sold BeG (wish she told me about the divorce a year earlier, i'd have kept it to live on) I stepped aside a month before Bermuda, went on an ideal 18 a year later for one day of racing and haven't been on a sailboat since

4-J44 3DL main around time of my exit was about $10k. I don't pay retail for bikes, but I use a P5 for tri, an Swork's 29er hardtail for trail (Leadville MTB100), just ordered an F10 for road. Thinking of trading the P5 for a ventum, but see no real gains. btw, i have 3 wheelsets for the P5, alum, 404 or 808 front, 808 or disc rear. (lots of really good quality pre-owned stuff out there for a song)

 

For 1 I never would get thrashed there, they would not know how to handle my hate for people.

2 you are in your 50's

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For 1 I never would get thrashed there, they would not know how to handle my hate for people.

2 you are in your 50's

 

1-you have no idea what you are dealing with, a much higher level of intellect and abusiveness happens in slowtwitch right V-mac?

2-not in my mind :D

 

 

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nobody has a long term bet on the EU but the USA can power away from the rest with the right management

Name an EU boat builder that hasnt received state aid at one time or another? ( even when the hulls were made in eastern europe)

Trump has a gift of the USA being self sufficient in power/oil/gas etc

I think the rest of the world is in for a few shocks when he levels the playing field ( asia wont be pretty)

Take your uninformed political BS and stick it up your arse

 

I am pretty sure it is very few Euro recreational builders that have been receiving any kind of gov. funds ever - do you have ANY facts to the opposite?

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For 1 I never would get thrashed there, they would not know how to handle my hate for people.

2 you are in your 50's

 

1-you have no idea what you are dealing with, a much higher level of intellect and abusiveness happens in slowtwitch right V-mac?

2-not in my mind :D

 

 

 

Intellect level can't be too high if some of you idiots that put yourselves through Ironman competition's ;)

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For 1 I never would get thrashed there, they would not know how to handle my hate for people.

2 you are in your 50's

 

1-you have no idea what you are dealing with, a much higher level of intellect and abusiveness happens in slowtwitch right V-mac?

2-not in my mind :D

 

 

 

Intellect level can't be too high if some of you idiots that put yourselves through Ironman competition's ;)

 

not much different than idiots that race an inherently slow object in an area of the world known for fickle winds..

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For 1 I never would get thrashed there, they would not know how to handle my hate for people.

2 you are in your 50's

 

1-you have no idea what you are dealing with, a much higher level of intellect and abusiveness happens in slowtwitch right V-mac?

2-not in my mind :D

 

 

 

Intellect level can't be too high if some of you idiots that put yourselves through Ironman competition's ;)

 

not much different than idiots that race an inherently slow object in an area of the world known for fickle winds..

 

And then drink heavily when done

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Only people who can't handle light air situations make this sort of complaint/observation.

Now if the two of you would kindly go hang out on the spandex forums this place would be the better for it.

Thanks in advance.

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Sounds like any possible suitor may just wait for auction......

Thursday, April 6, 2017, 1:00 PM (ET)

Navtec Rigging Solutions - Machinery & Equipment

Online Auction
By Order of the Secured Creditor, Major Offering By Online Auction, Assets of Navtec Rigging Solutions, Including: CNC Machining Centers, CNC Turning Centers, Machine Tools, Finishing Equipment, Specialty Manufacturing Equipment, Material Handling, Raw Materials, etc.

http://thomasauction.com/auction-details.asp?id=438

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Sounds like any possible suitor may just wait for auction......

 

Thursday, April 6, 2017, 1:00 PM (ET)

 

Navtec Rigging Solutions - Machinery & Equipment

 

Online Auction

By Order of the Secured Creditor, Major Offering By Online Auction, Assets of Navtec Rigging Solutions, Including: CNC Machining Centers, CNC Turning Centers, Machine Tools, Finishing Equipment, Specialty Manufacturing Equipment, Material Handling, Raw Materials, etc.

 

http://thomasauction.com/auction-details.asp?id=438

 

 

How do you find these auctions and the filing information. I remember seeing a list of all the Gunboat creditors on another forum.

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As a manufacturer and buyer of machinery from time to time, we get emails and mailings from auction houses all the time (several per week). I don't know how they get our name or particularly email addresses, but obviously there are a ton of databases for sale out there.

 

We have never bought anything at auction, but they keep trying. Just got one for a plant in the UK, which is a little far for a midwest USA firm to get too excited about.

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Any news?

 

I am trying to source a hydraulics release valve used on Farr 40’s so you can adjust and release pressure from the rail. I called today (Friday) and the message said they were only open Monday – Thursday in the winter so I’m going to try again on Monday but was still interested if there was on further information on the situation.

 

If anyone knows where I can source one of those valves, please pm me.

 

Thanks.

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The equipment isn't worth anything. The value of the company is the product line but only to someone who is already in the business (spar maker) and wants to expand. Can't imagine someone like BSI would have an interest, they win by default, a competitor just fell away. Must have been piss poor management to loose their position as the dominant rod rigging supplier.

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Equipment is pretty easy to come by at auctions around the country. An auction seems to take place somewhere every week it seems. I don't think that the equipment is worth all that much seeing what they have. A few good pieces but nothing too special. The only thing that had any real worth was the knowledge of the key production people, and without the old timers there to run the equipment you would be basically starting over if you bought it all to try to revive the business. The bigger question is why they went out of business in the first place (and Hall Rigging also). If you go to a big trade show like METS you see thousands of small companies all trying to get a small share of an industry that seems to be shrinking more and more every year. Every year there are old people retiring from the sport, and less and less young people that have any interest in getting into it. It seems unsustainable to have all these businesses trying to get a piece of a shrinking pie. Kind of like a pond with thousands of fish in it and the water is slowly draining out. I saw this happening a few years ago so we decided to invest heavily to diversify into the aerospace and industrial markets. We still make shackles for boats and will keep on making them, but we also make parts for parachutes, aerospace and industrial markets which, whether we like it or now, is probably 100x the size of the yachting market. If you don't adapt to the changing times you will wither away until you fail, as can be seen from the past closures and probably more to come.

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Equipment is pretty easy to come by at auctions around the country. An auction seems to take place somewhere every week it seems. I don't think that the equipment is worth all that much seeing what they have. A few good pieces but nothing too special. The only thing that had any real worth was the knowledge of the key production people, and without the old timers there to run the equipment you would be basically starting over if you bought it all to try to revive the business. The bigger question is why they went out of business in the first place (and Hall Rigging also). If you go to a big trade show like METS you see thousands of small companies all trying to get a small share of an industry that seems to be shrinking more and more every year. Every year there are old people retiring from the sport, and less and less young people that have any interest in getting into it. It seems unsustainable to have all these businesses trying to get a piece of a shrinking pie. Kind of like a pond with thousands of fish in it and the water is slowly draining out. I saw this happening a few years ago so we decided to invest heavily to diversify into the aerospace and industrial markets. We still make shackles for boats and will keep on making them, but we also make parts for parachutes, aerospace and industrial markets which, whether we like it or now, is probably 100x the size of the yachting market. If you don't adapt to the changing times you will wither away until you fail, as can be seen from the past closures and probably more to come.

Wise words

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Equipment is pretty easy to come by at auctions around the country. An auction seems to take place somewhere every week it seems. I don't think that the equipment is worth all that much seeing what they have. A few good pieces but nothing too special. The only thing that had any real worth was the knowledge of the key production people, and without the old timers there to run the equipment you would be basically starting over if you bought it all to try to revive the business. The bigger question is why they went out of business in the first place (and Hall Rigging also). If you go to a big trade show like METS you see thousands of small companies all trying to get a small share of an industry that seems to be shrinking more and more every year. Every year there are old people retiring from the sport, and less and less young people that have any interest in getting into it. It seems unsustainable to have all these businesses trying to get a piece of a shrinking pie. Kind of like a pond with thousands of fish in it and the water is slowly draining out. I saw this happening a few years ago so we decided to invest heavily to diversify into the aerospace and industrial markets. We still make shackles for boats and will keep on making them, but we also make parts for parachutes, aerospace and industrial markets which, whether we like it or now, is probably 100x the size of the yachting market. If you don't adapt to the changing times you will wither away until you fail, as can be seen from the past closures and probably more to come.

Spot on Tim. The marine business is certainly a fickle market and really tough if it is your ONLY market.

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When the president of West Marine retired, didn't he go with an unstayed WylieCat?

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Anyone know what happened to the sale of the company and its break up of assets?  The process should be mostly complete by now.

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I know the rod rigging side was bought by another rigging company. So rod rigging parts will still be available.

not sure what happened with the hydraulic side.

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Hayn has the drawings for parts and BSI has the stock.  Good on 'em too, great service from both of those companies, in marked contrast to Navtec, once the beancounters got ahold of it,

 

Dunno about the hydraulics either,  hope it gets sorted before we run out of rebuild kits and rods.

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While many valid points were raised, in this thread, about the problems in the US sailing market, I think everybody missed a couple key factors:

1) While household income may appear robust on paper, all of the growth has been with the top 1% of the top 1%. The plutocrat class. If Bill Gates moves into a neighborhood, their income will look pretty good. Only Gates will be considering Allen's yacht for sale however.

2) Sailing is dominated by men and the increases in female membership in the higher income echelons are accompanied by men who enjoy plutocrat status via marrying the CEO. The female does not yearn for a 80' yacht to round Cape Horn.

3) The younger snowflake generation. Lets be more descriptive shall we? Many of them are delicate little snowflakes. They just can't be bothered by the hardships of becoming a competent sailor. The difficulties of maintaining a sailboat. Some of them are trying to figure out which restroom seems more appropriate today. Kennedy: "I will put a man on the moon." Obama: "I will put men in the ladies room."

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re: hydraulics

I hear Rig Rite is involved somehow, so that should clean things up a bit...

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