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Doug Lord

Foiling: Controlled Jumping?

42 posts in this topic

For many years I've predicted that sooner or later foilers would be designed that could safely jump and safely re-enter. We've all seen that already with foiling windsurfers and kiteboards but now it is being predicted by David Smyth, President of Westlawn Institute. His comments below from Scuttlebutt are in response to the question whether or not foiling represents the future of sailing:

 

YES: The current foiling technologies are extremely limited and dangerous. However, foiling will very soon be very safe and more than twice as efficient (L/D) than current foils. This is because we are starting to develop the computer controls for fully active control with digital control laws that change very rapidly to deal with real-life events: wakes, seaweed, debris, etc. We will soon be able to do controlled jumps. That is a fundamental minimum capability for safe foiling.

Full foiling boats will look completely different from any current monohull or multihull: the problem of flight is fundamentally different from the problems of floating vessels, and so the solutions will be fundamentally different. Our current R&D efforts are bringing aerospace software and avionics technology to bear on this problem, and the progress is rapid and very promising. NDAs and proprietary corporate investments are currently restricting what can be shared at this time, but the efforts currently underway will bear fruit and be widely publicized and demonstrated in the very near future. -

 

 

First picture is an accidental jump that was due to rudder and wand problems BUT that I think can be duplicated now at will.

Second picture is a controlled jump with safe re-entry:

 

 

24onfpc.jpg

 

 

soyhbo.jpg

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You are a deluded Muppet......

 

(And no disrespect to Muppets - love the show)

 

You achieve (and I use this word lightly) 14 secs of lurching flight in 20 years of trying.

You proclaim your association with the true innovators and leaders of design in the foiling arena - but none of them return the favour or accolades to your body of work.

 

Now, you read an article and decide for the umpteenth thousand time to show one of your crap photos and proclaim that, what was an uncontrolled event displaying zero stability, pitch and heave control - can now be achieved at will.

 

Good Grief Charlie Brown.

 

Get your meds checked - better yet, get a friend* to OK your posts before publishing.

 

(* = Anyone in a white coat with a friendly or concerned smile IS your friend, even if they are being paid to attend.)

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First picture is an accidental jump that was due to rudder and wand problems BUT that I think can be duplicated now at will.

 

 

 

24onfpc.jpg

 

 

 

WTF!

For 2 years you have been telling us that this boat foiled perfectly. Time and again, you attacked anybody who said it didn't. Now you say it had rudder and wand problems, confirming what everybody else has said all along.

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Great idea Doug, I think you should call it the 'People's Foiler'..... It will be a revelation

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First picture is an accidental jump that was due to rudder and wand problems BUT that I think can be duplicated now at will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WTF!

For 2 years you have been telling us that this boat foiled perfectly. Time and again, you attacked anybody who said it didn't. Now you say it had rudder and wand problems, confirming what everybody else has said all along.

 

 

The jumping screen shot was taken on the second day of testing(as was the pitchpole screen shot) and there was plenty wrong. The testing lasted for a month and a half and the problems were all corrected.

These pictures were taken on the last day of testing where the foil system worked 100% perfectly:

 

 

 

23u4j86.jpg

 

 

sg216b.jpg

 

 

28a7sqa.jpg

 

 

 

a176tl.jpg

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It's called kiteboarding. There's a forum here already dedicated to it.

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It should certainly be possible to have foils that are raised just before a collision occurs or which break free on contact (while replacements could potentially be deployed immediately). You'd then need the hull to be strong enough to slide over the top of the debris without caving in. It may also be possible for the foils to be adjusted before the collision to raise the boat higher to help ensure the boat slides over the debris rather than whacking the bow straight into it, and it isn't such a stretch from there to have the boat go just high enough for the bottom of the foil to be clear of the water and so miss the debris entirely, but it could still come back down on the debris if it's approaching a giant log or shipping container end on, so it would be better to spot the debris early enough to steer round it, and that spotting role will doubtless go to drones launched from and returning to the boat every hour or two, able to fly day and night, and able to land back on the boat in the wildest conditions - that's where the money should be invested.

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One thing has to be concidered very carefully, that is scale vs stability,

For you that fly RC helicopters and fly real helicopters, it is 2 worlds, the RC helicopters need and has gyro stabilizer a real chopper do not need that due to it's size, it has a complete different stability acceleration.

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It should certainly be possible to have foils that are raised just before a collision occurs or which break free on contact (while replacements could potentially be deployed immediately). You'd then need the hull to be strong enough to slide over the top of the debris without caving in. It may also be possible for the foils to be adjusted before the collision to raise the boat higher to help ensure the boat slides over the debris rather than whacking the bow straight into it, and it isn't such a stretch from there to have the boat go just high enough for the bottom of the foil to be clear of the water and so miss the debris entirely, but it could still come back down on the debris if it's approaching a giant log or shipping container end on, so it would be better to spot the debris early enough to steer round it, and that spotting role will doubtless go to drones launched from and returning to the boat every hour or two, able to fly day and night, and able to land back on the boat in the wildest conditions - that's where the money should be invested.

I want some of those drugs

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It's called kiteboarding. There's a forum here already dedicated to it.

 

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And at some point, with computers controlling everything, there will be nothing left for the sailor to do, except hang on and ride. Is this where we want to take the sport? I suppose, of course, that it is inevitable.

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Someone has to turn the computer on!

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And at some point, with computers controlling everything, there will be nothing left for the sailor to do, except hang on and ride. Is this where we want to take the sport? I suppose, of course, that it is inevitable.

Instead of wind limits there will be battery limits.

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It will make sense only if it will provide cost effective solutions, or much cheaper ones.

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It should certainly be possible to have foils that are raised just before a collision occurs or which break free on contact (while replacements could potentially be deployed immediately). You'd then need the hull to be strong enough to slide over the top of the debris without caving in. It may also be possible for the foils to be adjusted before the collision to raise the boat higher to help ensure the boat slides over the debris rather than whacking the bow straight into it, and it isn't such a stretch from there to have the boat go just high enough for the bottom of the foil to be clear of the water and so miss the debris entirely, but it could still come back down on the debris if it's approaching a giant log or shipping container end on, so it would be better to spot the debris early enough to steer round it, and that spotting role will doubtless go to drones launched from and returning to the boat every hour or two, able to fly day and night, and able to land back on the boat in the wildest conditions - that's where the money should be invested.

I want some of those drugs

 

 

I've never taken any - I just keep an eye on what's in development, and drones are already doing things in the lab that most people imagine to be impossible. Watch this video from 9 minutes in to about 11. (For anyone tempted to watch the whole thing after seeing that, the rest may disappoint, but the bit at 5 minutes in is interesting.)

 

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At about 1:15 you can see how the mainfoil(adjustable AOI) on Maserati can lift the whole boat at relatively slow speeds. I can't get a screen shot of it but there is one picture floating around showing the boat at a very high angle due just to the testing of the main foil. As other tri's begin to use a similar system, particularly on smaller boats, jumping will become a distinct possibility. But the foil system has to be designed and engineered for it.

 

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Not necessarily controlled:

 

34sp2rd.jpg

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Nostalgia is not what it used to be!!

 

Great PR photo but Rohan is not jumping, he is stopping his boat. Note he is not holding the mainsheet, its loose on the deck. He has rounded up and moved aft. The foil is about to break surface and lose all lift. The boat is decelerating rapidly. The next frame will show the boat buried in a big stash, and the following one will show it stopped and quite likely capsized.

 

Its pretty common scene at the end of a tough moth race, once the boat is stopped its time to draw breath and refuel.

 

Anyone who has sailed a foiling boat knows that anything even slightly like jumping ends in a crash and potential damage to boat or person.

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Nostalgia is not what it used to be!!

 

Great PR photo but Rohan is not jumping, he is stopping his boat. Note he is not holding the mainsheet, its loose on the deck. He has rounded up and moved aft. The foil is about to break surface and lose all lift. The boat is decelerating rapidly. The next frame will show the boat buried in a big stash, and the following one will show it stopped and quite likely capsized.

 

Its pretty common scene at the end of a tough moth race, once the boat is stopped its time to draw breath and refuel.

 

Anyone who has sailed a foiling boat knows that anything even slightly like jumping ends in a crash and potential damage to boat or person.

 

Thats simply false.May be true in the moth class(for now) but definitely not true with windsurfers(and kites). Even Maserati came close to jumping with a no drama re-entry. Exact scale test models have been proven to jump and re-enter.

It's a matter of having a boat designed to jump. Foils have the power but have to be designed to jump and renter safely.

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Here's another shot that isn't really jumping (& certainly wasn't controlled).

 

It shows what can happen if your aft foil was just slapped on the bottom of an old kick-up rudder.

post-21863-0-30586900-1487342776_thumb.jpg

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There will never be controlled jumping! what do you think happens when any boat that has

lateral resistance from the boards and pressure in the rig suddenly lose grip to the water?

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There will never be controlled jumping! what do you think happens when any boat that has

lateral resistance from the boards and pressure in the rig suddenly lose grip to the water?

Kitefoilers can already control their takeoffs and achieve impressive heights & hang-times.

 

While the current ones might just be drifting downwind once they are in the air, I don't think it's breaking any laws of physics, or stretching the imagination too much, to think that it might be possible to transition into some sort of parasailing or hang-gliding mode, with some degree of control.

 

Unless they can find some extraordinary thermals though, I wouldn't expect to see them beating to windward very far.

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Sorry I wasn't referring to kites or wind surfers, only boats with no easy way to manipulate

their sail plan

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Sorry I wasn't referring to kites or wind surfers, only boats with no easy way to manipulate

their sail plan

In that case, you're probably right. I would also tend to think that only ultra-lightweight configurations would be feasible.

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What kites and boards do is more akin to flying than jumping. They are relying on the kite or rig being horizontal to the air and hence providing lift, which decreases the decent rate and allows for a landing rather than a crash.

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What kites and boards do is more akin to flying than jumping. They are relying on the kite or rig being horizontal to the air and hence providing lift, which decreases the decent rate and allows for a landing rather than a crash.

I was thinking the same thing. Might just maybe be possible with a dhow rig, but that's a pretty massive maybe.

 

DRC

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Other than performing tricks and stunts or passing over an obstruction in the water, what would be the point of jumping a large multihull? Seems like the foil cavitation issues would be slow the boat down more than any possible gains.

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considering that all of the mass of a kiteboarder or a windsurfer is in the human body, of course it makes sense that some sort of flying can be achieved.

 

flip that around to a boat's mass and it just doesn't make sense.

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Think about the tactical options available if you could jump...come around the offset mark in a line of boats, initiate jump mode, glide for a few boatlengths in the air, taking full advantage of the complete lack of sideways resistance to gain a deeper line on your opposition. You'd have to jump high and far otherwise your just putting yourself in everyone's bad air. Then when it is time to gybe, gybe on top of the remaining boats that went around the top mark ahead of you, initiate jump, landing both ahead and to leeward. Go on to win the race.

 

Seriously though, whilst the kitefoil and windfoil tricks they are starting to do (flat water backloops and those full 360 turns) are very cool, I'm not sure I can picture a situation where it would be fun to jump a foiler designed for VMG racing. Is it even legal to leave the water completely whilst racing?

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Think about the tactical options available if you could jump...come around the offset mark in a line of boats, initiate jump mode, glide for a few boatlengths in the air, taking full advantage of the complete lack of sideways resistance to gain a deeper line on your opposition. You'd have to jump high and far otherwise your just putting yourself in everyone's bad air. Then when it is time to gybe, gybe on top of the remaining boats that went around the top mark ahead of you, initiate jump, landing both ahead and to leeward. Go on to win the race.

 

Seriously though, whilst the kitefoil and windfoil tricks they are starting to do (flat water backloops and those full 360 turns) are very cool, I'm not sure I can picture a situation where it would be fun to jump a foiler designed for VMG racing. Is it even legal to leave the water completely whilst racing?

The drugs in Hobart must have been good. 😎

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Think about the tactical options available if you could jump...come around the offset mark in a line of boats, initiate jump mode, glide for a few boatlengths in the air, taking full advantage of the complete lack of sideways resistance to gain a deeper line on your opposition. You'd have to jump high and far otherwise your just putting yourself in everyone's bad air. Then when it is time to gybe, gybe on top of the remaining boats that went around the top mark ahead of you, initiate jump, landing both ahead and to leeward. Go on to win the race.

 

Seriously though, whilst the kitefoil and windfoil tricks they are starting to do (flat water backloops and those full 360 turns) are very cool, I'm not sure I can picture a situation where it would be fun to jump a foiler designed for VMG racing. Is it even legal to leave the water completely whilst racing?

The drugs in Hobart must have been good. 😎

It's just been pestering me for a long time that this topic exists when we could be discussing things that could actually be useful to multihull sailing

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Think about the tactical options available if you could jump...come around the offset mark in a line of boats, initiate jump mode, glide for a few boatlengths in the air, taking full advantage of the complete lack of sideways resistance to gain a deeper line on your opposition. You'd have to jump high and far otherwise your just putting yourself in everyone's bad air. Then when it is time to gybe, gybe on top of the remaining boats that went around the top mark ahead of you, initiate jump, landing both ahead and to leeward. Go on to win the race.

 

Seriously though, whilst the kitefoil and windfoil tricks they are starting to do (flat water backloops and those full 360 turns) are very cool, I'm not sure I can picture a situation where it would be fun to jump a foiler designed for VMG racing. Is it even legal to leave the water completely whilst racing?

The drugs in Hobart must have been good. 😎
It's just been pestering me for a long time that this topic exists when we could be discussing things that could actually be useful to multihull sailing
+1

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From the mouth of babes, well done sailingkid you have identified the futility of engaging with the Lord on shit that doesn't matter. His modus operandi is to start a subject to keep his name on the top of the discussion board and he gets some perverse pleasure from seeing his name against a Hot Topic. Can we all ignore the dross and discuss the real foiling issues, ignoring any DL additions in that discussion and he will wither on the vine. We might actually see some real meaningful input from people that really know something.

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Perhaps we could discuss a Foiler for the people.... We could call it the People's Foiler :)

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Perhaps we could discuss a Foiler Flyer for the people.... We could call it the People's Foiler Flyer :)

Corrected for you.

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Nostalgia is not what it used to be!!

 

Geeze Phil, your sarcasm–O–meter needs re–calibrating…

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