• Announcements

    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
    • B.J. Porter

      Moderation Team Change   06/16/2017

      After fifteen years of volunteer moderation at SA, I will no longer be part of the moderation team. The decision to step aside is mine, and has been some time in the works but we did not wish to announce it in advance for a number of reasons. It's been fun, but I need my time back for other purposes now. The Underdawg admin account will not be monitored until further notice, as I will be relinquishing control of it along with my administrative privileges. Zapata will continue on as a moderator, and any concerns or issues can be directed to that account or to the Editor until further notice. Anyone interested in helping moderate the forums should reach out to Scot by sending a PM to the Editor account. Please note that I am not leaving the community, I am merely stepping aside from Admin responsibilities and privileges on the site.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Doug Lord

Foiling: Controlled Jumping?

42 posts in this topic

For many years I've predicted that sooner or later foilers would be designed that could safely jump and safely re-enter. We've all seen that already with foiling windsurfers and kiteboards but now it is being predicted by David Smyth, President of Westlawn Institute. His comments below from Scuttlebutt are in response to the question whether or not foiling represents the future of sailing:

 

YES: The current foiling technologies are extremely limited and dangerous. However, foiling will very soon be very safe and more than twice as efficient (L/D) than current foils. This is because we are starting to develop the computer controls for fully active control with digital control laws that change very rapidly to deal with real-life events: wakes, seaweed, debris, etc. We will soon be able to do controlled jumps. That is a fundamental minimum capability for safe foiling.

Full foiling boats will look completely different from any current monohull or multihull: the problem of flight is fundamentally different from the problems of floating vessels, and so the solutions will be fundamentally different. Our current R&D efforts are bringing aerospace software and avionics technology to bear on this problem, and the progress is rapid and very promising. NDAs and proprietary corporate investments are currently restricting what can be shared at this time, but the efforts currently underway will bear fruit and be widely publicized and demonstrated in the very near future. -

 

 

First picture is an accidental jump that was due to rudder and wand problems BUT that I think can be duplicated now at will.

Second picture is a controlled jump with safe re-entry:

 

 

24onfpc.jpg

 

 

soyhbo.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are a deluded Muppet......

 

(And no disrespect to Muppets - love the show)

 

You achieve (and I use this word lightly) 14 secs of lurching flight in 20 years of trying.

You proclaim your association with the true innovators and leaders of design in the foiling arena - but none of them return the favour or accolades to your body of work.

 

Now, you read an article and decide for the umpteenth thousand time to show one of your crap photos and proclaim that, what was an uncontrolled event displaying zero stability, pitch and heave control - can now be achieved at will.

 

Good Grief Charlie Brown.

 

Get your meds checked - better yet, get a friend* to OK your posts before publishing.

 

(* = Anyone in a white coat with a friendly or concerned smile IS your friend, even if they are being paid to attend.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

First picture is an accidental jump that was due to rudder and wand problems BUT that I think can be duplicated now at will.

 

 

 

24onfpc.jpg

 

 

 

WTF!

For 2 years you have been telling us that this boat foiled perfectly. Time and again, you attacked anybody who said it didn't. Now you say it had rudder and wand problems, confirming what everybody else has said all along.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great idea Doug, I think you should call it the 'People's Foiler'..... It will be a revelation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

First picture is an accidental jump that was due to rudder and wand problems BUT that I think can be duplicated now at will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WTF!

For 2 years you have been telling us that this boat foiled perfectly. Time and again, you attacked anybody who said it didn't. Now you say it had rudder and wand problems, confirming what everybody else has said all along.

 

 

The jumping screen shot was taken on the second day of testing(as was the pitchpole screen shot) and there was plenty wrong. The testing lasted for a month and a half and the problems were all corrected.

These pictures were taken on the last day of testing where the foil system worked 100% perfectly:

 

 

 

23u4j86.jpg

 

 

sg216b.jpg

 

 

28a7sqa.jpg

 

 

 

a176tl.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's called kiteboarding. There's a forum here already dedicated to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It should certainly be possible to have foils that are raised just before a collision occurs or which break free on contact (while replacements could potentially be deployed immediately). You'd then need the hull to be strong enough to slide over the top of the debris without caving in. It may also be possible for the foils to be adjusted before the collision to raise the boat higher to help ensure the boat slides over the debris rather than whacking the bow straight into it, and it isn't such a stretch from there to have the boat go just high enough for the bottom of the foil to be clear of the water and so miss the debris entirely, but it could still come back down on the debris if it's approaching a giant log or shipping container end on, so it would be better to spot the debris early enough to steer round it, and that spotting role will doubtless go to drones launched from and returning to the boat every hour or two, able to fly day and night, and able to land back on the boat in the wildest conditions - that's where the money should be invested.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing has to be concidered very carefully, that is scale vs stability,

For you that fly RC helicopters and fly real helicopters, it is 2 worlds, the RC helicopters need and has gyro stabilizer a real chopper do not need that due to it's size, it has a complete different stability acceleration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It should certainly be possible to have foils that are raised just before a collision occurs or which break free on contact (while replacements could potentially be deployed immediately). You'd then need the hull to be strong enough to slide over the top of the debris without caving in. It may also be possible for the foils to be adjusted before the collision to raise the boat higher to help ensure the boat slides over the debris rather than whacking the bow straight into it, and it isn't such a stretch from there to have the boat go just high enough for the bottom of the foil to be clear of the water and so miss the debris entirely, but it could still come back down on the debris if it's approaching a giant log or shipping container end on, so it would be better to spot the debris early enough to steer round it, and that spotting role will doubtless go to drones launched from and returning to the boat every hour or two, able to fly day and night, and able to land back on the boat in the wildest conditions - that's where the money should be invested.

I want some of those drugs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's called kiteboarding. There's a forum here already dedicated to it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And at some point, with computers controlling everything, there will be nothing left for the sailor to do, except hang on and ride. Is this where we want to take the sport? I suppose, of course, that it is inevitable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone has to turn the computer on!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And at some point, with computers controlling everything, there will be nothing left for the sailor to do, except hang on and ride. Is this where we want to take the sport? I suppose, of course, that it is inevitable.

Instead of wind limits there will be battery limits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It will make sense only if it will provide cost effective solutions, or much cheaper ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It should certainly be possible to have foils that are raised just before a collision occurs or which break free on contact (while replacements could potentially be deployed immediately). You'd then need the hull to be strong enough to slide over the top of the debris without caving in. It may also be possible for the foils to be adjusted before the collision to raise the boat higher to help ensure the boat slides over the debris rather than whacking the bow straight into it, and it isn't such a stretch from there to have the boat go just high enough for the bottom of the foil to be clear of the water and so miss the debris entirely, but it could still come back down on the debris if it's approaching a giant log or shipping container end on, so it would be better to spot the debris early enough to steer round it, and that spotting role will doubtless go to drones launched from and returning to the boat every hour or two, able to fly day and night, and able to land back on the boat in the wildest conditions - that's where the money should be invested.

I want some of those drugs

 

 

I've never taken any - I just keep an eye on what's in development, and drones are already doing things in the lab that most people imagine to be impossible. Watch this video from 9 minutes in to about 11. (For anyone tempted to watch the whole thing after seeing that, the rest may disappoint, but the bit at 5 minutes in is interesting.)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At about 1:15 you can see how the mainfoil(adjustable AOI) on Maserati can lift the whole boat at relatively slow speeds. I can't get a screen shot of it but there is one picture floating around showing the boat at a very high angle due just to the testing of the main foil. As other tri's begin to use a similar system, particularly on smaller boats, jumping will become a distinct possibility. But the foil system has to be designed and engineered for it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not necessarily controlled:

 

34sp2rd.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nostalgia is not what it used to be!!

 

Great PR photo but Rohan is not jumping, he is stopping his boat. Note he is not holding the mainsheet, its loose on the deck. He has rounded up and moved aft. The foil is about to break surface and lose all lift. The boat is decelerating rapidly. The next frame will show the boat buried in a big stash, and the following one will show it stopped and quite likely capsized.

 

Its pretty common scene at the end of a tough moth race, once the boat is stopped its time to draw breath and refuel.

 

Anyone who has sailed a foiling boat knows that anything even slightly like jumping ends in a crash and potential damage to boat or person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nostalgia is not what it used to be!!

 

Great PR photo but Rohan is not jumping, he is stopping his boat. Note he is not holding the mainsheet, its loose on the deck. He has rounded up and moved aft. The foil is about to break surface and lose all lift. The boat is decelerating rapidly. The next frame will show the boat buried in a big stash, and the following one will show it stopped and quite likely capsized.

 

Its pretty common scene at the end of a tough moth race, once the boat is stopped its time to draw breath and refuel.

 

Anyone who has sailed a foiling boat knows that anything even slightly like jumping ends in a crash and potential damage to boat or person.

 

Thats simply false.May be true in the moth class(for now) but definitely not true with windsurfers(and kites). Even Maserati came close to jumping with a no drama re-entry. Exact scale test models have been proven to jump and re-enter.

It's a matter of having a boat designed to jump. Foils have the power but have to be designed to jump and renter safely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's another shot that isn't really jumping (& certainly wasn't controlled).

 

It shows what can happen if your aft foil was just slapped on the bottom of an old kick-up rudder.

post-21863-0-30586900-1487342776_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There will never be controlled jumping! what do you think happens when any boat that has

lateral resistance from the boards and pressure in the rig suddenly lose grip to the water?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There will never be controlled jumping! what do you think happens when any boat that has

lateral resistance from the boards and pressure in the rig suddenly lose grip to the water?

Kitefoilers can already control their takeoffs and achieve impressive heights & hang-times.

 

While the current ones might just be drifting downwind once they are in the air, I don't think it's breaking any laws of physics, or stretching the imagination too much, to think that it might be possible to transition into some sort of parasailing or hang-gliding mode, with some degree of control.

 

Unless they can find some extraordinary thermals though, I wouldn't expect to see them beating to windward very far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry I wasn't referring to kites or wind surfers, only boats with no easy way to manipulate

their sail plan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry I wasn't referring to kites or wind surfers, only boats with no easy way to manipulate

their sail plan

In that case, you're probably right. I would also tend to think that only ultra-lightweight configurations would be feasible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What kites and boards do is more akin to flying than jumping. They are relying on the kite or rig being horizontal to the air and hence providing lift, which decreases the decent rate and allows for a landing rather than a crash.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What kites and boards do is more akin to flying than jumping. They are relying on the kite or rig being horizontal to the air and hence providing lift, which decreases the decent rate and allows for a landing rather than a crash.

I was thinking the same thing. Might just maybe be possible with a dhow rig, but that's a pretty massive maybe.

 

DRC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Other than performing tricks and stunts or passing over an obstruction in the water, what would be the point of jumping a large multihull? Seems like the foil cavitation issues would be slow the boat down more than any possible gains.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

considering that all of the mass of a kiteboarder or a windsurfer is in the human body, of course it makes sense that some sort of flying can be achieved.

 

flip that around to a boat's mass and it just doesn't make sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Think about the tactical options available if you could jump...come around the offset mark in a line of boats, initiate jump mode, glide for a few boatlengths in the air, taking full advantage of the complete lack of sideways resistance to gain a deeper line on your opposition. You'd have to jump high and far otherwise your just putting yourself in everyone's bad air. Then when it is time to gybe, gybe on top of the remaining boats that went around the top mark ahead of you, initiate jump, landing both ahead and to leeward. Go on to win the race.

 

Seriously though, whilst the kitefoil and windfoil tricks they are starting to do (flat water backloops and those full 360 turns) are very cool, I'm not sure I can picture a situation where it would be fun to jump a foiler designed for VMG racing. Is it even legal to leave the water completely whilst racing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Think about the tactical options available if you could jump...come around the offset mark in a line of boats, initiate jump mode, glide for a few boatlengths in the air, taking full advantage of the complete lack of sideways resistance to gain a deeper line on your opposition. You'd have to jump high and far otherwise your just putting yourself in everyone's bad air. Then when it is time to gybe, gybe on top of the remaining boats that went around the top mark ahead of you, initiate jump, landing both ahead and to leeward. Go on to win the race.

 

Seriously though, whilst the kitefoil and windfoil tricks they are starting to do (flat water backloops and those full 360 turns) are very cool, I'm not sure I can picture a situation where it would be fun to jump a foiler designed for VMG racing. Is it even legal to leave the water completely whilst racing?

The drugs in Hobart must have been good. 😎

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Think about the tactical options available if you could jump...come around the offset mark in a line of boats, initiate jump mode, glide for a few boatlengths in the air, taking full advantage of the complete lack of sideways resistance to gain a deeper line on your opposition. You'd have to jump high and far otherwise your just putting yourself in everyone's bad air. Then when it is time to gybe, gybe on top of the remaining boats that went around the top mark ahead of you, initiate jump, landing both ahead and to leeward. Go on to win the race.

 

Seriously though, whilst the kitefoil and windfoil tricks they are starting to do (flat water backloops and those full 360 turns) are very cool, I'm not sure I can picture a situation where it would be fun to jump a foiler designed for VMG racing. Is it even legal to leave the water completely whilst racing?

The drugs in Hobart must have been good. 😎

It's just been pestering me for a long time that this topic exists when we could be discussing things that could actually be useful to multihull sailing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Think about the tactical options available if you could jump...come around the offset mark in a line of boats, initiate jump mode, glide for a few boatlengths in the air, taking full advantage of the complete lack of sideways resistance to gain a deeper line on your opposition. You'd have to jump high and far otherwise your just putting yourself in everyone's bad air. Then when it is time to gybe, gybe on top of the remaining boats that went around the top mark ahead of you, initiate jump, landing both ahead and to leeward. Go on to win the race.

 

Seriously though, whilst the kitefoil and windfoil tricks they are starting to do (flat water backloops and those full 360 turns) are very cool, I'm not sure I can picture a situation where it would be fun to jump a foiler designed for VMG racing. Is it even legal to leave the water completely whilst racing?

The drugs in Hobart must have been good. 😎
It's just been pestering me for a long time that this topic exists when we could be discussing things that could actually be useful to multihull sailing
+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the mouth of babes, well done sailingkid you have identified the futility of engaging with the Lord on shit that doesn't matter. His modus operandi is to start a subject to keep his name on the top of the discussion board and he gets some perverse pleasure from seeing his name against a Hot Topic. Can we all ignore the dross and discuss the real foiling issues, ignoring any DL additions in that discussion and he will wither on the vine. We might actually see some real meaningful input from people that really know something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps we could discuss a Foiler for the people.... We could call it the People's Foiler :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps we could discuss a Foiler Flyer for the people.... We could call it the People's Foiler Flyer :)

Corrected for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nostalgia is not what it used to be!!

 

Geeze Phil, your sarcasm–O–meter needs re–calibrating…

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0