dacapo

foil assisted cruiser

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Cruisers will really appreciate the horizontal DSS trunk cutting through the salon. Great conversation starter.

Although cruisers spend 90+% of their time at anchor, the DSS foils will also be useful in fending off french charterers trying to anchor, and make a good boarding ramp when tied to a floating dock.

Very disruptive. It's the future. Perhaps BeneHun should offer retrofit kits for their boats.

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At anchor would they work to reduce roll? Maybe they are on to something... :lol:

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At anchor would they work to reduce roll? Maybe they are on to something... :lol:

Probably would, though the slapping on the water and rattling in trunk probably drive inhabitants crazy.

Rumor is this cruising version is called DRBSS... Dynamic Rum Bottle Stability System.

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DRBSS.

 

Hmmm. I think you might be on to something. Whether it works or not...

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Yes, research is definitely needed.

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What a bunch of negative comments, on a forum claiming 'anarchy' and where you all moan about average white blobs and all boats looking

the same . . .

 

Trunk cutting through the accommodation - its a 56 foot yacht with relatively high freeboard, so I'll image it will be below the sole.

 

Rattling in its trunk at anchor? Modern roller systems are pretty good at stopping that. And when not in use it fully retracts into the case - so its not being pushed around by the watter, so what's causing it to move around and rattle?

 

Uncomfortable motion? Well any lightweight, fast boat isn't exactly comfortable. But the DSS allows a narrower waterline as you're less reliant on form stability, which should help, plus the fin may act as a good damper. Certainly the reviews of DSS in Yachting World etc. all seem to comment on the DSS improving comfort. Anyway, I thought the consensus here is that most people are wimps who just sail from marina to marina in nice weather, so who cares about comfort in rough seas?

 

No, I've nothing to do with the company, never sailed a DSS equipped boat and it may well be a rubbish boat. But based on what experienced sailors who've sailed DSS equiped boats have to say maybe this is something to keep an eye on, maybe even raise a modicum of excitement?

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I'm open minded on this. It wasn't too long ago that the Valiant 40 was considered by some to be too "radical" for an offshore cruising boat. I can pretty much quote designer Ray Richards from an article in YACHTING, "The V-40 is too light to be considered an offshore cruising boat."

 

Time marches on and in time the new will be considered old.

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I actually find the progression very interesting. Not long ago foiling was limited to moths and high end racing designs Since the last AC, we have seen foiling technology trickle down to where Gunboat built the G4 and now there is a video of a Mini foiling. That's not bad progress for 4 years and it will be interesting how it continues to develop.

 

Do I think foiling cruising will go main stream? No, but I'm convinced that there will be a generation of fast, light cruisers using foils at some point. Picture a Pogo on foils.

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I actually find the progression very interesting. Not long ago foiling was limited to moths and high end racing designs Since the last AC, we have seen foiling technology trickle down to where Gunboat built the G4 and now there is a video of a Mini foiling. That's not bad progress for 4 years and it will be interesting how it continues to develop.

 

Do I think foiling cruising will go main stream? No, but I'm convinced that there will be a generation of fast, light cruisers using foils at some point. Picture a Pogo on foils.

Gunboat's attempt at a 'cruising' foiler ended rather spectacularly.

I'm sure that in the next few years someone will emerge with very deep pockets and a yearning for 'disruptive technology'. A line several blocks long will form outside his door of industry people eager to help him spend his money. I don't see this becoming mainstream on cruising boats...canting keels have been around 20+ years and haven't done so.

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I thought it time to resuscitate this old thread.  

DSS is being applied to more than raceboats now.

The new Farr Baltic 142 Canova has a big (29 feet) DSS foil.  It's all under the owner's cabin sole, and managed from on deck.  She's due for launch in the next few months.  Definitely one to watch, as there are many plans afoot to make this work for new-builds in the 40 to 60 foot bracket too.  The lessons learned on the huge loads in a 140-ton large fast cruising boat will be very applicable to smaller ones.  Much better that way round!

https://www.balticyachts.fi/supercharged-foil-assisted-baltic-142-canova-on-course-for-spring-launch/

BTW, I am a proponent of the system.  Hugh Welbourn and I have been talking about this for 20+ years, but I'm not a shareholder or otherwise interested except as a friend and an avid supporter of new ideas.

T218-Baltic142-I0004-1024x724.jpg

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For performance and possibly stability at anchor, I think it’s likely a major asset. DSS is simple technology that is really effective.  The problem I see is more on the practical side.  For those who enjoy cruising and navigating through tricky areas littered with narrow granite passages and heaps of lobster pots, the DSS would absolutely prove to be a major hindrance.  This would be almost impossible to use from Monhegan island all the way to Eastport.  

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10 minutes ago, eliboat said:

For performance and possibly stability at anchor, I think it’s likely a major asset. DSS is simple technology that is really effective.  The problem I see is more on the practical side.  For those who enjoy cruising and navigating through tricky areas littered with narrow granite passages and heaps of lobster pots, the DSS would absolutely prove to be a major hindrance.  This would be almost impossible to use from Monhegan island all the way to Eastport.  

That would be when it might be good to retract them then.  

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Right, and you would have a system that the performance of the boat largely hinges on being dormant for the majority of the time that the boat is used.  Perfect. 

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I don't really understand what Beneteau is doing here.  Is this the same concept, with a different execution?

Edit:  OK, I found this link that explains a bit about it: https://www.sailingworld.com/figaro-beneteau-3-figaro-forward-with-foils

...also: Charles Devanneaux and co-skipper Matthieu Damerval, doublehanded the prototype in the 2018 Pacific Cup from San Francisco to Hawaii — finishing only three days behind 70-footers, with an elapsed time of 11 days, 4 hours and 24 minutes (racing under an experimental rating).

 

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As far as I understand, a DSS board will push the boat to leeward when heeled as the lifting force is perpendicular to the board. The Beneteau system pushes the boat to windward, obviously that should help going upwind.

As you heel the righting moment of the Bénéteau foils increases, so there is some dynamic stability going on, that's probably useful for a boat which will be mostly used by singlehandlers.

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On 2/9/2017 at 1:51 PM, dacapo said:

not to be confused with a full foiling cruising cat

 

whatcha think?

 

http://www.farrdesign.com/814.html

 

 

post-11311-0-39981900-1486666295_thumb.jpg

Foil assisted cruiser is like a rocket assisted minivan :rolleyes: Even without the foil that keel will collect every single crab pot and lobster trap on the East Coast and probably break right off first rock it hits.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Foil assisted cruiser is like a rocket assisted minivan :rolleyes: Even without the foil that keel will collect every single crab pot and lobster trap on the East Coast and probably break right off first rock it hits.

At least with the Figaro the foil extends out from the hull well above the waterline - if there is minor damage to the hull it would be less likely to try to flood the boat.

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On 2/10/2017 at 2:01 PM, RKoch said:

Gunboat's attempt at a 'cruising' foiler ended rather spectacularly

I guess you are talking about the G4 - it wasn't really meant to be a cruising boat, more of a performance daysailer, with basic overnight accommodations..,and it wasn't really a gunboat, but was by DNA Performance Sailing, with the gunboat name slapped on it.

I had a tour of version 2 - the F4, which at 46ft was 6ft longer than the G4, and even it really didn't have what most people would call cruising accommodations. that one was also by DNA, but wasn't called a gunboat. the idea was still that it would be a foiling boat for non-pro owners

so those first two were maybe learning experiences.., but now DNA is building the TF10 (a Morelli and Melvin design)  - and it appears to be a success, they have sold a bunch of them. I think they have learned a lot, and it's clearly something that could be scaled up -  I wouldn't be surprised to see a bigger version with even better overnight capability, along the lines of  what the G4 or F4 tried to do. 

Anyway,  it's pretty common that the first version of something  doesn't work out.., but that doesn't mean you write off the concept.

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Fast is fun and all that, but IMHO systems complexity usually winds up adding maintenance time and costs. Many (most?) cruisers I see are short handed, often a middle aged or older couple. But this again begs the question, "What is cruising?" I'd be surprised to see many old farts embracing (and paying for) a design like this for a winter in the Bahamas or Caribbean, might be different somewhere else with a different demographic.

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Very small demographic would be my guess.

A big chunk of cruisers won't even give up full keels.

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Meh.

I did what Hugh now calls "DSS" on a 5o5 when I was doing my Westlawn studies in the early 1970s. It performed exactly like the DSS installations I've seen: sometimes it helps, but not much overall. Not worth the hassle for sure.

Foils can be wonderful: we don't see many Zepplins flying around (displacement mode aircraft). Foils on 99.999999% of aircraft today.

If the foils had a fully automated control system, and can be stored out of the way, then I'd be interested. We are seeing some interesting systems now, but the more control the better. Uncontrolled foils are really of minimal interest, and a lot of negatives: expense, weight, structural and compromised interior layouts among them.

For cruising, I think hydrofoils are not really all that applicable, because carrying payload is very important, and speed is not. Its the experience, not the pace. Fly if you want to get somewhere inexpensively, quickly, cheaply.

Now, solid wing sails that can feather, rotating easily through 360 degrees: that would be a huge improvement. No reason to reef, as a wing feathers straight into the wind has DRAMATICALLY less drag than just the rigging on a typical (historic?) rig.

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33 minutes ago, carcrash said:

we don't see many Zepplins flying around (displacement mode aircraft). Foils on 99.999999% of aircraft today.

Displacement aircraft have problems that are specific to the service. However, the air water interface makes displacement easy. Water also adds complications to foils. 99.99999% of boats are not foil assisted today.

In the cruising context my experience is that most boats spend the majority of their time underpowered. I suspect that for most there are easier places to find average speed increases than by adding foils.

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9 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Foil assisted cruiser is like a rocket assisted minivan :rolleyes: Even without the foil that keel will collect every single crab pot and lobster trap on the East Coast and probably break right off first rock it hits.

This. I wouldn't have one as a gift.

So you get to your next port faster. So what. Now you get to anchor in deeper water because of your draft and the foiling boards are another thing to maintain.

If you're a racer or wannabe racer, fine. For a cruising boat, simpler & cheaper to just buy a bigger boat.

I'd rather have a deep retractable dagger board setup.

FKT

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A possible market is racers who occasionally cruise. In my area lots of Js, C&Cs, Firsts etc race every week around the cans and also do longer point to point courses several times a year. They also put cusions inside and the real anchor on the bow and spend a week or two on the water in cruise mode. The added effort to use the foil would not be a big deal to sailors who scrub the bottom once a week already, or have the coin to pay someone else to do it. The T keel is an issue, the foil is not since it can be retracted to release any crap it collects. 

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A displacement mode aircraft would make a much better cruising aircraft than a foil borne one. The accommodations are much bigger, carrying dinghies is possible, you can anchor pretty much anywhere. 

In racing, you want to cross the finish line first. In cruising, there's a good argument for crossing the finish line last. You're out there for the enjoyment of it, why do you want to cut that short?

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Sailing flat is desirable on a cruising boat, a foil could help with that. Also if you can manage to have a system with dihedral, that will reduce roll, again that can be desirable. I am not saying that foils are going to become the norm but I can imagine some clever designers developing interesting stuff.

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It would be like putting ground effects, nitrous oxide, and racing slicks on a Winnebago. No one who wants the best lap time at the Nurburgring is in the Winnebago market to start with :rolleyes: 

To me, a cruising boat needs to be able to suffer a lot of abuse a long way from any repair facility and be easily handled by two people. If you are talking about "stunt cruising" like cramming your family onto an Open 40 or a racing trimaran, well maybe a tiny number of people might be into it??

 

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53 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

It would be like putting ground effects, nitrous oxide, and racing slicks on a Winnebago. No one who wants the best lap time at the Nurburgring is in the Winnebago market to start with :rolleyes: 

To me, a cruising boat needs to be able to suffer a lot of abuse a long way from any repair facility and be easily handled by two people. If you are talking about "stunt cruising" like cramming your family onto an Open 40 or a racing trimaran, well maybe a tiny number of people might be into it??

 

 

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:lol: They must have seen some redneck trailer racing. I don't think there's a comedian alive who gets more laughs.

 

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5 hours ago, steele said:

The T keel is an issue, the foil is not since it can be retracted to release any crap it collects. 

There speaks the voice of someone who's never hit anything or got stuff jammed so it wouldn't retract.

Unfortunately I know better from personal experience with a deployable side-scan sonar rig on a research ship. It got hit. It got bent. It didn't retract. Diver job when we got home. Dry dock repair job sometime later when we welded it all over and did our best to forget about it.

As Clint Eastwood said, do you feel lucky?

FKT

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I'd take the extra righting moment and heave stability.

Plus I'd have two swim platforms with one of those babies on the RV (The nom du Beneteau).

Now, I am a racer through and through, so when I cruise, each passage leg is essentially a time trial as far as I am concerned. I am happiest when I can get an extra tenth of a knot out of anything that floats so why not? (Why I started taking Metamucil....)

Granted, not a lot of crab pots where I do my business so that's not really a show stopper for me.

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14 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

It would be like putting ground effects, nitrous oxide, and racing slicks on a Winnebago. No one who wants the best lap time at the Nurburgring is in the Winnebago market to start with :rolleyes: 

To me, a cruising boat needs to be able to suffer a lot of abuse a long way from any repair facility and be easily handled by two people. If you are talking about "stunt cruising" like cramming your family onto an Open 40 or a racing trimaran, well maybe a tiny number of people might be into it??

 

I had to google "Winnebago", you guys across the Atlantic know how to do "big and shiny". A cruising boat doesn't have to be a floating home like a Winnebago seems to be a house on wheels, lot of people do the Atlantic loop on relatively light boats. RM and Pogo are doing well in this market. These are definitely " able to suffer a lot of abuse a long way from any repair facility and be easily handled by two people" as per your definition of a cruising boat.

I don't know what a cruising foil could be but I imagine something relatively small that let you push the boat a bit further while giving extra stability in roll, pitch and/or yaw. Yes that's added complexity but I am simply not ruling out that somebody clever enough will find an elegant solution that will gain some traction. It might even be completely different from what we see now on racing boat, dunno twin keels with a horizontal foil between?

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22 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

It would be like putting ground effects, nitrous oxide, and racing slicks on a Winnebago. No one who wants the best lap time at the Nurburgring is in the Winnebago market to start with :rolleyes: 

To me, a cruising boat needs to be able to suffer a lot of abuse a long way from any repair facility and be easily handled by two people. If you are talking about "stunt cruising" like cramming your family onto an Open 40 or a racing trimaran, well maybe a tiny number of people might be into it??

 

Not nitrous... I'm more a twin turbo kinda guy...

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6 hours ago, Panoramix said:

 A cruising boat doesn't have to be a floating home

That's exactly what a cruising boat is.

The fact that some people sail long distances and stay a long time on racing boats doesn't make them cruising boats.

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49 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

That's exactly what a cruising boat is.

The fact that some people sail long distances and stay a long time on racing boats doesn't make them cruising boats.

Sorry, I meant "floating house", as I wrote correctly for the RV.

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10 hours ago, Panoramix said:

I had to google "Winnebago", you guys across the Atlantic know how to do "big and shiny". A cruising boat doesn't have to be a floating home like a Winnebago seems to be a house on wheels, lot of people do the Atlantic loop on relatively light boats. RM and Pogo are doing well in this market. These are definitely " able to suffer a lot of abuse a long way from any repair facility and be easily handled by two people" as per your definition of a cruising boat.

I don't know what a cruising foil could be but I imagine something relatively small that let you push the boat a bit further while giving extra stability in roll, pitch and/or yaw. Yes that's added complexity but I am simply not ruling out that somebody clever enough will find an elegant solution that will gain some traction. It might even be completely different from what we see now on racing boat, dunno twin keels with a horizontal foil between?

For me one advantage of DSS is a much lighter keel.  A lighter keel leads to the ability to lift it more easily when needed in shallow anchorages, which is not so easy to do with a heavy one.

With a careful arrangement of the vang (or perhaps a gnav), the keel strut can stick right up through the deck.  With small twin rudders this gets a 45-55 foot fast cruiser into places that other people envy.  And the strut's so skinny that the trunk doesn't impact the interior much at all.  The DSS fin is below the floor, of course.

Even better if the rudders are also retractable in rotating cassettes, or hinge up like the 60s, then you could probably almost beach the thing if you wanted.  Certainly paddling depth around.  

Bahamas, anyone?

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Should be fun when you Chinese gybe and everything is on the wrong side. 

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6 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Sorry, I meant "floating house", as I wrote correctly for the RV.

These are floating houses. A cruising boat is a mobile floating home. Foiling boats are neither.

image.png.3db574a114146d7a68e460288de1b7df.png

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1 hour ago, Elegua said:

Should be fun when you Chinese gybe and everything is on the wrong side. 

You do still have a keel, with a hefty bulb on the end.

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4 hours ago, P_Wop said:

For me one advantage of DSS is a much lighter keel.

 

3 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

You do still have a keel, with a hefty bulb on the end.

Light and hefty, deep and shallow. The Wonder Keel (tm)?

 

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3 hours ago, Elegua said:

Should be fun when you Chinese gybe and everything is on the wrong side. 

With the Beneteau Figaro 3 apparently the foils are extended out to both side all the time, except when docking?  With the DSS, is only one out at a time? 

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8 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

These are floating houses. A cruising boat is a mobile floating home. Foiling boats are neither.

image.png.3db574a114146d7a68e460288de1b7df.png

So what make you think that the addition of foils automatically stop a boat being a home?

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I like the concept, but it has the same problem as daggerboards or bilgeboards in salt water- stuff growing in/on them, jamming things up, and how do you clean/sand/apply bottom paint?  Another speciality for boatyards: “We do dss!  Spring package special now!”

It’s weird enough what grows on the top of the rudder/shaft if we can’t get over to see Amati for a while (like right now that the pass is closed again) - the first few turns of the tiller are noisy and stiff (crunch crunch), although it’s kind of like a rudimentary autopilot on the way to spring haul-out. ;)  

Its enough to argue for transom hung rudders that can rotate out of the water when the boat is tied up, like on our trimaran.  But then she also a daggerboard, so......   I know! Leeboards!  Er, surface piercing foils....  

Fresh water sailing might have its advantages?  The Swiss love dss! :)

And there’s this:

https://www.yachtingworld.com/news/franck-cammas-will-not-lose-the-use-of-his-right-foot-69222

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12 hours ago, Salazar said:

With the Beneteau Figaro 3 apparently the foils are extended out to both side all the time, except when docking?  With the DSS, is only one out at a time? 

I don’t know. How much time, if any, do you need to spend “trimming “ the board? 

I view cruising boats like little cargo vessels. They need to carry your favorite crap around and run efficiently and safely with small crews. Efficiently implies a certain amount of performance. 

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My idea of the cruising market is retired people who want a lot of water for showers and good heat/AC. Foils are likely number 1000 on their list of things to add to their Island Packet.

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8 hours ago, Panoramix said:

So what make you think that the addition of foils automatically stop a boat being a home?

You're right - a foiling boat makes a very practical liveaboard long distance cruiser.

Uncomplicated, lots of tankage, lots of batteries, lots of storage, can take being loaded down with "stuff", easily handled by a small crew - they excel at all the things that cruisers find important.

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37 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

You're right - a foiling boat makes a very practical liveaboard long distance cruiser.

Uncomplicated, lots of tankage, lots of batteries, lots of storage, can take being loaded down with "stuff", easily handled by a small crew - they excel at all the things that cruisers find important.

You are moving the goal post, we were talking of foil assisted cruiser, not of a foiling boat. Btw I agree with you that a (fully) foiling cruiser is probably not practical for weight reasons.

For a foil assisted boat you don't need tankage, batteries etc... It is just a fancy daggerboard at an angle.

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25 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

For a foil assisted boat you don't need tankage, batteries etc...

But you do for a cruising boat - the whole point.

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

But you do for a cruising boat - the whole point.

I thought you were talking of America's cup style foilers with servo assisted foils powered by hydraulics and an electric hydraulic pump.

So do you think that the foil trunk is too big?

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32 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

You are moving the goal post, we were talking of foil assisted cruiser, not of a foiling boat. Btw I agree with you that a (fully) foiling cruiser is probably not practical for weight reasons.

For a foil assisted boat you don't need tankage, batteries etc... It is just a fancy daggerboard at an angle.

 

A horizontal foil....sounds like added entertainment. 

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32 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

I thought you were talking of America's cup style foilers with servo assisted foils powered by hydraulics and an electric hydraulic pump.

So do you think that the foil trunk is too big?

I think the whole concept is wrong for a cruising boat.

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4 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I think the whole concept is wrong for a cruising boat.

but probably okay for a performance boat that the owner cruises now and again...

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Just now, SloopJonB said:

I think the whole concept is wrong for a cruising boat.

IMHO That's quite pretentious to think that no designer can pull it off.

Look if I say "twin board on a 20ft cruising boat", you might think that's tricky but yet somebody managed to do it (red fox) and the consensus is that it's a really nice boat. It requires a lot of talent and knowledge to pull these designs off but some can do it.

50492_102_pic.jpg

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You're right, I agree.

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33 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

IMHO That's quite pretentious to think that no designer can pull it off.

Look if I say "twin board on a 20ft cruising boat", you might think that's tricky but yet somebody managed to do it (red fox) and the consensus is that it's a really nice boat. It requires a lot of talent and knowledge to pull these designs off but some can do it.

50492_102_pic.jpg

Twin daggerboards on a boat that size can actually make the interior layout easier, with nothing blocking access to the vberth.

And twin daggerboards have what to do with foil assisted cruising? 

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Is there really a market for a foil assisted cruiser / PHRF racer / "blue water" [sic] / lifting keel / DSS  / saloon deck [bring your foulies] / 56' sloop? If someone were to build it I'd love to go for a sail on that Farr boat but I wouldn't buy one.  Who would pay the premium and why? For line honors in your lonely class in the Wednesday evening race if the wind is blowing a good deal more than usual? To go offshore on a boat with that deck layout?

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24 minutes ago, weightless said:

To go offshore on a boat with that deck layout?

what's wrong with the deck layout?

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53 minutes ago, us7070 said:

what's wrong with the deck layout?

As drawn it looks like it is nicely setup for entertaining at anchor on a fair summers eve. It doesn't look like an efficient day racing layout or comfortable place to sit in anything but the most ideal conditions. They say the remit is for a "performance blue water cruiser".  I presume that means short handed, non professional crew, significant offshore passages, and no pickle dishes for beating the competition. I'd like more protected watch spaces and well laid out work spaces. I don't mind getting wet, sun smitten, cold, hot and so on for a while. In fact I do it regularly. However, on passages I find it gets old. Also, if I understand the drawing there is a trench going into the saloon. On a keel yacht offshore downflooding might be an issue.

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1 hour ago, slap said:

Twin daggerboards on a boat that size can actually make the interior layout easier, with nothing blocking access to the vberth.

And twin daggerboards have what to do with foil assisted cruising? 

My point is that there might be a clever way to integrate a foil trunk inside like there is a clever way to do daggerboards on a small cruiser. Yes, just on in the middle doesn't work well.

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36 minutes ago, weightless said:

As drawn it looks like it is nicely setup for entertaining at anchor on a fair summers eve. It doesn't look like an efficient day racing layout or comfortable place to sit in anything but the most ideal conditions. They say the remit is for a "performance blue water cruiser".  I presume that means short handed, non professional crew, significant offshore passages, and no pickle dishes for beating the competition. I'd like more protected watch spaces and well laid out work spaces. I don't mind getting wet, sun smitten, cold, hot and so on for a while. In fact I do it regularly. However, on passages I find it gets old. Also, if I understand the drawing there is a trench going into the saloon. On a keel yacht offshore downflooding might be an issue.

i don't know what that black thing is.., but i doubt it's a trench - if it is, then i'll agree it's a problem.

most cruising boast add dodgers - i'm sure you could have one on this...

open cockpits work fine offshore - i've done1000's of miles with them.

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1 hour ago, us7070 said:

i don't know what that black thing is.., but i doubt it's a trench - if it is, then i'll agree it's a problem.

most cruising boast add dodgers - i'm sure you could have one on this...

open cockpits work fine offshore - i've done1000's of miles with them.

Just looked at it again and it seems a little less goofy. I'm not sure what that dark thing is. Maybe just an oddity of the rendering? It made the whole thing look strange to me.

I've also done 1000's of miles in open cockpit boats offshore. Of course they work. In a cruising context I think they are less than ideal. Lots of times an open cockpit is a good choice but in a boat that is primarily intended for "blue water" cruising service I'm hard pressed to see how a wide open cockpit would be desirable.

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40 minutes ago, weightless said:

but in a boat that is primarily intended for "blue water" cruising service I'm hard pressed to see how a wide open cockpit would be desirable.

they work fine for _blue water_  sailing...

and the average cruiser will spend 10 days at the anchorage (at least) for every day on blue water.., and at the anchorage, they are far superior - more room.., no maneuvering around the wheel.., better for swimming.., easier to get on the dinghy.., 

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35 minutes ago, us7070 said:

they work fine for _blue water_  sailing...

and the average cruiser will spend 10 days at the anchorage (at least) for every day on blue water.., and at the anchorage, they are far superior - more room.., no maneuvering around the wheel.., better for swimming.., easier to get on the dinghy.., 

I respect your opinion. In my experience, which includes lots of passages and long term cruising and in my observations of many other long term voyaging ("blue water") cruisers, it is a minority opinion. Open cockpits get enclosed once people start spending a lot of time in them at anchor or on passage.

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