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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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DTA

RS Aero 9 Sail - How to Buy Cheap?

80 posts in this topic

My Aero 9 sail is blown - it's just barely hanging together w/ duct tape, fishing line sutures, and super glue. I'd like to buy a new one, but my understanding is that it would cost close to $1,000 to buy a class legal one through RS Sailing. That's freaking ridiculous.

 

I don't sail in races; just for fun. So I don't care about the sail being class legal.

 

Is there a cheap RS Aero 9 sail that I can buy somewhere? Again - I don't care if it's class legal.

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Hi DTA,

A fear you are likely suffering wear from hoisting the sail with the boat on its side every time?

 

I am not sure about that pricing as West Coast recently said $715 for a RS Aero 7 sail.

 

I suggest you post on the RS Aero Class North America Facebook Group. Two seasons in now, there are likely some keen racers who would be pleased to update to a brand new one for the new season's racing and sell you a one or two season old one.

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DTA - Mark should be able to provide you an Aero 9 sail for just over $800.

(I show $840 as retail, but prices changed a little for 2017)

 

Aero 7 is indeed $715.

 

--

We have sold some of the other 'non-class legal' sails for other boats - still do on one model. They are uniformly average, nothing amazing.

For a boat like the Aero, getting class legal equipment will make the experience a lot better for you.

 

The newest generation of sails have had a few very minor changes, but customers have been getting good life out of them so far.

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Peter - sail damage is from the surf mainly. After capsize, if the boom goes forward toward the bow, instead of laying down flat in the water toward the stern, and then gets hit by surf, all sorts of weird pressures seem to be exerted on the sail (battens punching through, rips, etc.). No complaints w/ the Aero sail as this is probably outside the design parameters of the boat (although my Laser sails did seem to hold up better in the same conditions).

 

WestCoast - I know there are problems w/ Laser sails now. But back in the day I could buy a cheap-ass non-class legal Laser sail for SUPER cheap (I *think* I bought it from you guys or APS - can't remember). The sail worked just fine, and since I don't race the non-class legal aspect didn't bother me at all. Is there no such cheap, non-class legal Aero sail option? Sold by a vendor unaffiliated w/ RS?

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DTA - Check out Colie Sails. I believe they are one source of unofficial Laser sails at a discount. I've never done business with them but they've been around a long time so would assume they're a good company. I didn't see Aero sails on their web site but I would think they would give some consideration if it means some new business.

 

http://coliesail.com/sail.html

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DTA,,'book goes forwards' sounds like you'd do well to tie the tail of your mainsheet shorter, give yerself just enough fer sailing,, a bit of a trade-off for surf sailing

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This is one of my "makes my blood boil" moments.

 

You buy a boat, gain all the benefit of the development time and effort the builder has put in and then you want to find a way of doing them out of some of the return they make for that effort. If everybody did that, the cost of the base product would need to go up. But that is only part of it. you complain about the cost, yet I bet if you lost or broke a part that is Aero only (say a daggerboard) and nobody had them in stock, you would be on this forum screaming about it, telling us all about how you cannot go sailing because you don't get the support from the manufacturer.

 

AFAIK, nobody is making Aero knock off sails. You could try t get a sailmaker to do so, although i hope most have too much integrity to do so, because this isn't like the Laser sail situation. Even if you do find one, you will have a totally untried product that you will have zero idea about how well it fits the rig and how long it will last.

 

Spend the money and enjoy a new sail. Or maybe it is worth getting a sailmaker to tidy up your current sail. it might not look pretty, but it would probably work well enough for what you need.

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Visit your nearest sailmaker for repairs. Good sail tape is 20x better than duct tape for this job and fishing line stitches are nothing compared to a proper stitched in fact in patch. Expect it to cost between $50 and $200 depending on whether it's a susbsistance businesses or not.

 

DRC

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This is one of my "makes my blood boil" moments.

 

You buy a boat, gain all the benefit of the development time and effort the builder has put in and then you want to find a way of doing them out of some of the return they make for that effort. If everybody did that, the cost of the base product would need to go up. But that is only part of it. you complain about the cost, yet I bet if you lost or broke a part that is Aero only (say a daggerboard) and nobody had them in stock, you would be on this forum screaming about it, telling us all about how you cannot go sailing because you don't get the support from the manufacturer.

 

AFAIK, nobody is making Aero knock off sails. You could try t get a sailmaker to do so, although i hope most have too much integrity to do so, because this isn't like the Laser sail situation. Even if you do find one, you will have a totally untried product that you will have zero idea about how well it fits the rig and how long it will last.

 

Spend the money and enjoy a new sail. Or maybe it is worth getting a sailmaker to tidy up your current sail. it might not look pretty, but it would probably work well enough for what you need.

 

Do you think because the manufacturer has an agreement with a company to be the sole supplier of class legal equipment that means they should take advantage of the monopoly and send the price through the roof? It's a fucking dacron sail stitched together in sri lanka its not like its they invented some brand new technology. The fact that intensity hasn't folded even though a laser sail from them is 170 dollars versus 605 for the class legal one just goes to show how out of hand this class legal one design bullshit has gotten.

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Sorry Team_GBR, but with the Laser's I've purchased through the years I never had to sign a document stating I would ONLY purchase class legal equipment at whatever the going monopoly price happens to be and if I violated that document there would be serious consequences!

That said, I fully understood (still do) that if I want to race my Laser in any regatta that everything must be class legal. That's pretty easy to follow. The OP never stated he was trying to get around an Aero class rule.
It's the sole business of the OEM (RS in this case) to price a new Aero (for this example) at a point where they can make a nice profit and also to enable their dealers to also make nice profit and still be able to hit an acceptable target price for us. If the price of the fully equipped new boat is too low and didn't take into account people going to a LOCAL loft (not in China, Sri Lanka or other) to buy replacement parts for purely recreational sailing then, in my humble opinion, it's NOT the consumer's problem.
Also, last I checked, there is no intellectual property (patents) that prevent a local sailmaker from building a Laser or Aero sail (well, there is the patent on the new Laser sail). Of course the consumer takes a risk of going with a non-standard sail in terms of how the sail is integrated with the boat. I suspect that if someone were using a non-standard Aero sail and broke a mast (not from playing in the surf) it would be a tough sell going back to RS for a warranty replacement. But, that's the consumer's risk!
I suspect that if we truly understood the actual cost to make an official Aero or Laser sail compared to what we're being charged it would be pretty amazing. Who's getting rich?

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he bought the boat and, presumably, paid for it

 

at this point he doesn't owe RS _anything_!

 

intensity makes many (most?) of the "practice" Laser sails - and they have been doing it since before there was any "situation" with the Laser sail availability. I think they are about $100 for the old style sail, and a little more for one similar to the new sail

 

there is no reason that anyone not racing OD should feel they have to buy OD sails if they don't want to do so.

 

with the aero class growing pretty well, i would expect that if they aren't making them now.., they will be making "practice" sails soon

 

i would contact them - maybe they have a prototype or something they can sell you cheaply

 

http://www.intensitysails.com/

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Well why not buy a replacement is some sort of chase to the bottom ? Many reasons of course and very obvious ones to lots of us. If the 'knock-off' supplier contributed a single cent to the R&D programme for the overall package or even the sail in isolation I might just agree with you a bit - but they don't and never will. They scam a margin off those who really did take a bit of real commercial risk .... You tell me if they are ‘serving the market’ or are really parasites in self-proclaimed ‘Robin Hood’ clothing.

 

Don't think it matters ? The cynical self-serving approach of the copyists in time kills off any real investment or new products. Just don’t moan when those that do put their money on the line decide to do something else ....

 

If you don’t like the set menu at a particular restaurant (or boat class) then just go and eat elsewhere . That is plenty of real choice out there – in boat terms don’t expect to bring your own food along and gripe about the set menu prices as you sit at the table. Sorry what was that ? “you did not read the menu when you bought” GAWD - Give us a break ....

 

There are classes where you do have sail maker choice – what is there to not to like in switching to one of them if ‘any supplier’ free choice is really your kick ? Well usually because totally free choice ends up very very expensive and even then you might not have sails as good as anyone else. So really you want your cake and to eat it .... A ’SMOD’ supply model “ but well on second thoughts not one where you have to pay a penny more than the cheapest alternative for parts”

 

Only my view ...just saying ..... :)

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RS has the option of offering a non OD legal "practice sail" if they want to

 

by choosing not to fill that need, they are choosing to let customers who want that product to go elsewhere

 

in what other activity do people burn through expensive competition-level consumable gear, when practicing?

 

and "expensive" is relative - $1000 is "expensive" for the OP.., and that's enough for me

 

cyclists don't use their race-day wheels and tires when they practice - they use cheaper stuff - it's like that in almost every sport.

 

blaze implies that there is some sort of ethically-based financial obligation owed by the buyer to the seller after he pays for the boat - and i 100% reject that assertion.

 

when a race boat gets delivered.., should they burn through their 3Di's to support north's R&D?

 

The SMOD principle applies to _racing_, nothing else

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Well this thread sure turned into a shitfight!!

 

The couch is the ONLY poster who addressed the real problem

Steve offered sensible repair advice. Odds are good the major part of the sailcloth has years of life remaining. If there is no intention of racing, sails can be patched and patched and patched and as long as they have their three corners, they work just fine.

 

It seems the OP is doing WAY MORE SWIMMING than he should. My guess is he is sailing with the sail out way too far and when his boat starts to capsize to weather he is not wailing on the mainsheet and

Just guessing

He is letting go of the mainsheet when he finally dumps.

 

Never never never let go of the mainsheet!!!

If you are washed off the boat tgat mainsheet clenched in your unrelenting fingers is your lifeline

It is also what will trim the sail back to the middle of the boat so when the boat dumps, with you ten feet behind and swimming, the boat will gently tip over with everything in place for easy righting

 

 

I suggest two things

1. Get the old rag repaired

2. Start a new thread about boat handling to help learn how to stay upright

 

Dumping should be a rare event.

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This is one of my "makes my blood boil" moments.

 

You buy a boat, gain all the benefit of the development time and effort the builder has put in and then you want to find a way of doing them out of some of the return they make for that effort. If everybody did that, the cost of the base product would need to go up. But that is only part of it. you complain about the cost, yet I bet if you lost or broke a part that is Aero only (say a daggerboard) and nobody had them in stock, you would be on this forum screaming about it, telling us all about how you cannot go sailing because you don't get the support from the manufacturer.

 

AFAIK, nobody is making Aero knock off sails. You could try t get a sailmaker to do so, although i hope most have too much integrity to do so, because this isn't like the Laser sail situation. Even if you do find one, you will have a totally untried product that you will have zero idea about how well it fits the rig and how long it will last.

 

Spend the money and enjoy a new sail. Or maybe it is worth getting a sailmaker to tidy up your current sail. it might not look pretty, but it would probably work well enough for what you need.

 

I just bought a brand new RS700 from RS. RS is making good money off me, and will make more $ off me in the future b/c I like their boats. But - yeah - I've got a bit of a problem paying almost $1,000 for an Aero 9 sail (after shipping, handling, etc.). I've blown out the first sail in about a year, and have no reason to believe that I won't blow out the next one in the same amount of time. Asking me to pay RS $1,000 every year (~ 1/7 the cost of the entire boat) just to keep sailing the boat every year is a bit much. So, yeah - I'm going to look for a cheap knock-off if it's available.

 

I remember buying a non-class legal "practice" Laser sail several years ago (before all the current legal problems) for a couple hundred bucks. So, at that time, someone was making a profit from making and selling a Laser sail for a couple hundred bucks. I'm not sure what's so different about an Aero sail. But long story short - I'm simply not going to pay $1,000 every year to keep sailing my Aero.

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Visit your nearest sailmaker for repairs. Good sail tape is 20x better than duct tape for this job and fishing line stitches are nothing compared to a proper stitched in fact in patch. Expect it to cost between $50 and $200 depending on whether it's a susbsistance businesses or not.

 

DRC

 

Thanks. I'll do that w/ the next sail. But this one is already tattered and ragged.

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with the aero class growing pretty well, i would expect that if they aren't making them now.., they will be making "practice" sails soon

 

i would contact them - maybe they have a prototype or something they can sell you cheaply

 

http://www.intensitysails.com/

 

Thanks. I had forgotten from whom it was that I had bought that old Laser "practice" sail for so cheap. But you've jogged my memory - it was Intensity. Cheap as dirt and it did everything I needed it to do, and I still have it on the Laser that I trash in the surf all the time.

 

I'll check their website, and monitor it in the future, so see if they start selling "practice" Aero sails. I'm not too keen on ordering my own "custom" Aero sail, b/c "custom" by definition won't be cheap. So, I'll just wait until they are cranking them out assembly line fashion. Until then - looks like I'm stuck w/ the manufacturer's $1,000 Aero 9 sail.

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If you don’t like the set menu at a particular restaurant (or boat class) then just go and eat elsewhere . That is plenty of real choice out there – in boat terms don’t expect to bring your own food along and gripe about the set menu prices as you sit at the table. Sorry what was that ? “you did not read the menu when you bought” GAWD - Give us a break ....

 

 

Totally inapt analogy. I'm a dude sitting on a beach in Corpus Christi Texas, sailing my Aero 9 alone with no other dinghy sailors ever in sight anywhere, and I'm just wondering - "why do I have to keep paying $1,000 every year to keep sailing this $7,000 boat?"

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This is one of my "makes my blood boil" moments.

 

You buy a boat, gain all the benefit of the development time and effort the builder has put in and then you want to find a way of doing them out of some of the return they make for that effort. If everybody did that, the cost of the base product would need to go up. But that is only part of it. you complain about the cost, yet I bet if you lost or broke a part that is Aero only (say a daggerboard) and nobody had them in stock, you would be on this forum screaming about it, telling us all about how you cannot go sailing because you don't get the support from the manufacturer.

 

AFAIK, nobody is making Aero knock off sails. You could try t get a sailmaker to do so, although i hope most have too much integrity to do so, because this isn't like the Laser sail situation. Even if you do find one, you will have a totally untried product that you will have zero idea about how well it fits the rig and how long it will last.

 

Spend the money and enjoy a new sail. Or maybe it is worth getting a sailmaker to tidy up your current sail. it might not look pretty, but it would probably work well enough for what you need.

Go fuck yourself.

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Well this thread sure turned into a shitfight!!

 

The couch is the ONLY poster who addressed the real problem

Steve offered sensible repair advice. Odds are good the major part of the sailcloth has years of life remaining. If there is no intention of racing, sails can be patched and patched and patched and as long as they have their three corners, they work just fine.

 

It seems the OP is doing WAY MORE SWIMMING than he should. My guess is he is sailing with the sail out way too far and when his boat starts to capsize to weather he is not wailing on the mainsheet and

Just guessing

He is letting go of the mainsheet when he finally dumps.

 

Never never never let go of the mainsheet!!!

If you are washed off the boat tgat mainsheet clenched in your unrelenting fingers is your lifeline

It is also what will trim the sail back to the middle of the boat so when the boat dumps, with you ten feet behind and swimming, the boat will gently tip over with everything in place for easy righting

 

 

I suggest two things

1. Get the old rag repaired

2. Start a new thread about boat handling to help learn how to stay upright

 

Dumping should be a rare event.

 

Dude, I'm sailing in sizeable surf. That's pretty much all I do with my Aero. I don't really sail my Aero in regular flat water conditions. The last thing on earth I want to do when I capsize while surfing is stay close to the boat. Hell yes I'm going to let go of that mainsheet and stay away from the boat until there's a lull in the surf. And if there's somebody who surfs breaking waves w/ an Aero and never capsizes, well bully for them. But, personally, I think it's completely normal (not to mention fun) to capsize a lot (and beat up your sail) while sail surfing in conditions like these:

 

 

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DTA,,'book goes forwards' sounds like you'd do well to tie the tail of your mainsheet shorter, give yerself just enough fer sailing,, a bit of a trade-off for surf sailing

 

Mainsheet is short. It only allows the sail to go out just a bit forward of a right angle. The problem is that in high winds if I capsize to windward while surfing, the sail will "stay up" (so to speak) at this right angle position, and when the next wave hits the boat it puts awkward pressure on the sail precisely because the mainsheet *IS* short and won't let the boom move further forward toward the bow (i.e. the direction the wave is pushing the sail). Also, the inverse happens a lot - boat capsizes w/ boom underwater and at 90-degree angle, forward of the mast. In this position the sail is getting rocked by the surf. But regardless of this particular phenomena, sailing in surf is gonna beat up the sail and require a new sail much sooner than regular sailing.

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with the aero class growing pretty well, i would expect that if they aren't making them now.., they will be making "practice" sails soon

 

i would contact them - maybe they have a prototype or something they can sell you cheaply

 

http://www.intensitysails.com/

 

Thanks. I had forgotten from whom it was that I had bought that old Laser "practice" sail for so cheap. But you've jogged my memory - it was Intensity. Cheap as dirt and it did everything I needed it to do, and I still have it on the Laser that I trash in the surf all the time.

 

I'll check their website, and monitor it in the future, so see if they start selling "practice" Aero sails. I'm not too keen on ordering my own "custom" Aero sail, b/c "custom" by definition won't be cheap. So, I'll just wait until they are cranking them out assembly line fashion. Until then - looks like I'm stuck w/ the manufacturer's $1,000 Aero 9 sail.

 

 

what i was suggesting was a prototype, not a custom sail - aero sails are not on the website yet, but if they are thinking of building them, they will first build a bunch of prototypes

 

prototype sail are not custom sails - the are experiments

 

they can often be had for not much more than free - in any case less than the eventual production sail

 

my experience is with prototype windsurfing sails - every year, the sailmakers modify the previous year model - usually just a little bit - and they make prototypes before starting manufacture of the final retail product

 

sometimes the finish of a prototype isn't quite at the level of a retail product - but the price is can be 1/10th of the price of the eventual retail product

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There seems to be a very different culture between the USA and UK and maybe this is why companies like RS aren't so keen on developing the US market. in the UK, it would take a lot to get a group of people to even consider going to a sailmaker to develop a sail so as to avoid buying the OEM product. i believe that here in the UK, there is too much respect and support for RS. we understand that to be able to support a class and a boat, you need to spend and spend big. For those who say that somebody is making a fortune, that is uneducated and wrong. I have known the RS guys for years. They do not make huge profits and i would say that for the size of business, they make very modest sums. They invest and give back so much to the sport in general and to their customer base.

 

So next time somebody in the USA wants an RS only spare, I wonder whether it will be sitting somewhere convenient for quick delivery or whether it will need to be ordered, then manufactured and sent over taking a few months during which time the person cannot sail their boat. I bet that would lead to huge protests about lack of support, yet it is clear that some of you don't want to support a manufacturer to make it worth them their while to give the support.

 

As i say, it seems to be a difference in culture, and I know which sailing scene is the better one, So i will leave it to you guys to work some of this stuff out.

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with the aero class growing pretty well, i would expect that if they aren't making them now.., they will be making "practice" sails soon

 

i would contact them - maybe they have a prototype or something they can sell you cheaply

 

http://www.intensitysails.com/

 

Thanks. I had forgotten from whom it was that I had bought that old Laser "practice" sail for so cheap. But you've jogged my memory - it was Intensity. Cheap as dirt and it did everything I needed it to do, and I still have it on the Laser that I trash in the surf all the time.

 

I'll check their website, and monitor it in the future, so see if they start selling "practice" Aero sails. I'm not too keen on ordering my own "custom" Aero sail, b/c "custom" by definition won't be cheap. So, I'll just wait until they are cranking them out assembly line fashion. Until then - looks like I'm stuck w/ the manufacturer's $1,000 Aero 9 sail.

 

 

what i was suggesting was a prototype, not a custom sail - aero sails are not on the website yet, but if they are thinking of building them, they will first build a bunch of prototypes

 

prototype sail are not custom sails - the are experiments

 

they can often be had for not much more than free - in any case less than the eventual production sail

 

my experience is with prototype windsurfing sails - every year, the sailmakers modify the previous year model - usually just a little bit - and they make prototypes before starting manufacture of the final retail product

 

sometimes the finish of a prototype isn't quite at the level of a retail product - but the price is can be 1/10th of the price of the eventual retail product

 

 

Ahhhhh ... OK. Thanks.

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There seems to be a very different culture between the USA and UK and maybe this is why companies like RS aren't so keen on developing the US market. in the UK, it would take a lot to get a group of people to even consider going to a sailmaker to develop a sail so as to avoid buying the OEM product. i believe that here in the UK, there is too much respect and support for RS. we understand that to be able to support a class and a boat, you need to spend and spend big. For those who say that somebody is making a fortune, that is uneducated and wrong. I have known the RS guys for years. They do not make huge profits and i would say that for the size of business, they make very modest sums. They invest and give back so much to the sport in general and to their customer base.

 

So next time somebody in the USA wants an RS only spare, I wonder whether it will be sitting somewhere convenient for quick delivery or whether it will need to be ordered, then manufactured and sent over taking a few months during which time the person cannot sail their boat. I bet that would lead to huge protests about lack of support, yet it is clear that some of you don't want to support a manufacturer to make it worth them their while to give the support.

 

As i say, it seems to be a difference in culture, and I know which sailing scene is the better one, So i will leave it to you guys to work some of this stuff out.

 

I'm not saying that RS Sailing is a bad company. Far from it. I love RS Sailing and I just bought an RS 700 from them. What I'm saying is that I'm simply not going to spend $1,000/year to sail my RS Aero.

 

Both these things can be true: (a) RS Sailing is a good company, and ( B) DTA beats the crap out of his sails and reasonably doesn't want to spend $1,000/year to keep sailing his Aero.

 

Also, I'm a different customer than you UK guys. No offense, but you UK guys REALLY need manufacturer support b/c you like racing so much. You need the manufacturer to spend lots of money organizing a class, getting regattas set up, supporting regattas, etc. etc. etc. Compared to you guys I AM A CHEAP DATE. I don't need ANY of that stuff. Just give me the boat, and I'm happy. RS Sailing doesn't need to spend ONE DIME in terms of supporting a class organization, regattas, etc. etc. to keep me as a loyal customer. So, all that money they spend on regattas, class associations, etc. - that's all fine and good. But I derive no benefit from it whatsoever.

 

I just buy the product, and go use the product all by myself with no interaction with anybody else. And then when my parts start breaking, I want to buy new parts at a reasonable price that reflects the fact that I AM A CHEAP DATE.

 

I'm not begrudging you guys your racing and regattas and massive expensive social events all centered around racing sailboats. That's all fine and good. But compared to you guys, I AM A CHEAP DATE. So, when I want to buy a new sail, I want to buy it at a price that reflects the fact that I AM A CHEAP DATE who didn't need any of that fancy, expensive socializing to make the sailing experience fun for me.

 

Your last sentence sums it up perfectly. You are comparing the UK sailing "scene" to the US sailing "scene", and declaring the UK sailing "scene" better. You know what - it probably is. But I AM NOT IN THE SCENE AT ALL. I SAIL ALONE. BY MYSELF. HAVING FUN JUST ME WITH THE BOAT. So, all that sailing "scene" stuff, and all the money spent to support your better sailing "scene", means nothing to me. So, when I buy a new Aero 9 sail, I want the price to reflect the fact that I am not "in the scene".

 

That's what non-class-legal stuff is for, right? So that dudes like me who just want to sail, and don't care about the expensive social "scene", can just get our parts and go sailing and leave the "scene" to the rest of you guys.

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DTA you should email Intensity like US7070 suggested as they may have something. No guilt in buying cheaper sails to practice or blast around with.

 

he bought the boat and, presumably, paid for it

 

at this point he doesn't owe RS _anything_!

 

intensity makes many (most?) of the "practice" Laser sails - and they have been doing it since before there was any "situation" with the Laser sail availability. I think they are about $100 for the old style sail, and a little more for one similar to the new sail

 

there is no reason that anyone not racing OD should feel they have to buy OD sails if they don't want to do so.

 

with the aero class growing pretty well, i would expect that if they aren't making them now.., they will be making "practice" sails soon

 

i would contact them - maybe they have a prototype or something they can sell you cheaply

 

http://www.intensitysails.com/

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A Class - i don't know the detailed history of the laser practice sail.., but i don't think a bunch of sailors got together and commissioned a practice sail.

 

i think a few sailmakers saw a business opportunity, and started building them.., and sailors started buying them - for practice, and non-OD racing

 

as it happens, the practice laser sail is now permitted in at least somelocal racing fleets - the newport frostbite fleet permits them

 

it is not permitted in "official" laser events

 

i think that this practice is not optimal, from an OD perspective - but it seems necessary to keep the participation at the level that the sailors want

 

still, i think in the end i care less about people racing with practice sails than i do about them racing with buoyancy aids rather than USCG approved PFD's. practice sails are explicitly permitted by the SI's and so using one is not "cheating" but in general, SI's in the usa require a USCG approved PFD, so using a buoyancy aid _is_ cheating. and, yes.., it does confer an advantage.

 

anyway - i think that of you feel bad about a sailor buying a non OD Aero sail, you should consider whether RS would prefer to sell a boat to that person, or prefer to forego the sale.

 

my guess is that RS would prefer to sell the boat - that they themselves would say they are better off selling a boat to someone who won't return to them for replacement sails, than not selling the boat in the first place.

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I think this is the cost of doing business on your RS Aero. You're learning to sail the boat and capsizing a lot. The capsizing is what's putting the strain on the life of your sail. I'd suggest going to Mexico to the ISA http://internationalsailingacademy.com Get some training on downwind sailing, sailing in big waves...etc. Do that and buy a new Aero 9 sail and never look back. Spend the money on yourself, on your skill set. I bet you'll stop wearing out sails.

 

What did Bora sail about sailing in a Moth...oh yeah, "time in boat, time in boat, time in boat"

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maybe he likes capsizing...

 

whatever - it doesn't matter - if he's not racing he should buy whatever sails he wants to buy.

 

or - maybe even make his own.., if that's the kind of project that appeals to him

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Look, this thread served its purpose. I thought there might be, for the Aero, something analogous to cheap $200 "practice" Laser sails that I bought many years ago for my Laser. I now know that there is not yet such a thing on the market. So, I'll deal w/ that fact.

 

Thanks to those above for the factual responses.

 

And, for the record, if my goal were to "not capsize," I could go out in Corpus Christ Bay in 15-20 mph winds every weekend and capsize maybe once or twice a month. But for whatever f**ked up reason, I REALLY enjoying sailing in, around, and on breaking surf. If you do that a lot, I don't care how good you are, you're going to capsize a lot.

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DTA you should email Intensity like US7070 suggested as they may have something. No guilt in buying cheaper sails to practice or blast around with.

 

he bought the boat and, presumably, paid for it

 

at this point he doesn't owe RS _anything_!

 

intensity makes many (most?) of the "practice" Laser sails - and they have been doing it since before there was any "situation" with the Laser sail availability. I think they are about $100 for the old style sail, and a little more for one similar to the new sail

 

there is no reason that anyone not racing OD should feel they have to buy OD sails if they don't want to do so.

 

with the aero class growing pretty well, i would expect that if they aren't making them now.., they will be making "practice" sails soon

 

i would contact them - maybe they have a prototype or something they can sell you cheaply

 

http://www.intensitysails.com/

 

 

Done.

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Look, this thread served its purpose. I thought there might be, for the Aero, something analogous to cheap $200 "practice" Laser sails that I bought many years ago for my Laser. I now know that there is not yet such a thing on the market. So, I'll deal w/ that fact.

 

Thanks to those above for the factual responses.

 

And, for the record, if my goal were to "not capsize," I could go out in Corpus Christ Bay in 15-20 mph winds every weekend and capsize maybe once or twice a month. But for whatever f**ked up reason, I REALLY enjoying sailing in, around, and on breaking surf. If you do that a lot, I don't care how good you are, you're going to capsize a lot.

Nice thing about sailboats as opposed to airplanes and cars. You can play on the edge of crash and burn with nice soft water and usually your equipment isn't even harmed

 

Glad you are having a hoot... no that's another toy.... you know what i meant 😀

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There seems to be a very different culture between the USA and UK and maybe this is why companies like RS aren't so keen on developing the US market. in the UK, it would take a lot to get a group of people to even consider going to a sailmaker to develop a sail so as to avoid buying the OEM product. i believe that here in the UK, there is too much respect and support for RS. we understand that to be able to support a class and a boat, you need to spend and spend big. For those who say that somebody is making a fortune, that is uneducated and wrong. I have known the RS guys for years. They do not make huge profits and i would say that for the size of business, they make very modest sums. They invest and give back so much to the sport in general and to their customer base.

 

So next time somebody in the USA wants an RS only spare, I wonder whether it will be sitting somewhere convenient for quick delivery or whether it will need to be ordered, then manufactured and sent over taking a few months during which time the person cannot sail their boat. I bet that would lead to huge protests about lack of support, yet it is clear that some of you don't want to support a manufacturer to make it worth them their while to give the support.

 

As i say, it seems to be a difference in culture, and I know which sailing scene is the better one, So i will leave it to you guys to work some of this stuff out.

Come on and fuck your better sailing culture.

Never heated such a complete rubbish.

 

This has nothing to do with uk vs us culture or anything like that.

 

Most people sail an rs areo for od racing (most rs classes in fact).

They need an od sail.

 

The aero (just like the laser used to and still does) also severs another market. Those that see in the boat the ideal Plattform to blast around on their own. Just for the sake of it. Or to store it at their holiday house in Spain or what ever! And simply enjoy the wind (and water) in their hair.

These obviously don't need an od sail and like to save some cost.

The already did lcd racing sailboats the biggest favour in buying their boat.

They shall of course use any sail they want. Carbon sail with Fat head? With reefs? Just cheaper? A cut up table cloth?

Add an asym to it? Add a stern mast to the boat? Add foils? What the fuck do you care?

 

What the fuck is there to complain about if somebody is looking for an alternative for sail for their boat?

 

BTW I'm not from the US. Rather from the uk, even if i don't live there.

 

Just go sailing you retards and keep your bullshit to yourself.

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I confirmed w/ Intensity. They do not yet have any sails for the Aero. Looks like they're waiting for a larger market before hopping in w/ inexpensive sails.

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Dion, I believe you could have one made cheap, Mariner sails here in dfw was gunna build me a custom one off mylar for my IC and it would be 700$, a dacron replica should be dirt cheap.

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I confirmed w/ Intensity. They do not yet have any sails for the Aero. Looks like they're waiting for a larger market before hopping in w/ inexpensive sails.

I love that Intensity is so responsive to email questions, great outfit to deal with. Sometimes a "contact us" email with a supplier goes nowhere fast but Intensity has always been fast to reply to my enquiries.

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Dion, I believe you could have one made cheap, Mariner sails here in dfw was gunna build me a custom one off mylar for my IC and it would be 700$, a dacron replica should be dirt cheap.

Stock Mylar cloth is less expensive than stock dacron cloth. I will once again advise getting the sail repaired. I have jibs that are 40% patch and are still better than poorly made one's. Support your local loft.

 

DRC

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Dion, I believe you could have one made cheap, Mariner sails here in dfw was gunna build me a custom one off mylar for my IC and it would be 700$, a dacron replica should be dirt cheap.

Stock Mylar cloth is less expensive than stock dacron cloth. I will once again advise getting the sail repaired. I have jibs that are 40% patch and are still better than poorly made one's. Support your local loft.

 

DRC

Exactly

They are the ones to support.

A sail maker can repair a lot. It will cost you up to 200.

 

I understand that you also want a replacement sail. At least as backup.

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Stock Mylar cloth is less expensive than stock dacron cloth. I will once again advise getting the sail repaired. I have jibs that are 40% patch and are still better than poorly made one's. Support your local loft.

DRC

 

 

An experienced and competent sailmaker can also take a good look at where a sail is going wrong and address those factors. I recall a mate worked with one of the Sailing schools to produce a Laser sail for them that had way increased life over a standard sail simply by concentrating experience on the places where improvements could be made. The sails were a little more expensive than standard Laser sails but had, IIRC, more than twice the lifespan. Of course cheap and nasty rags with all the standard faults plus a bunch of new ones sell much better...

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Long before Intensity Sails and similar, in the 1980's in the US one could be a new "second" Laser sail directly from Chesapeake Cutters (the loft that built Laser sails, if I am not mistaken, long before North and others got the contract) for substantial savings versus a new "high quality" Laser sail. These "seconds" were totally legal to be used in class regattas. I purchased a few and could never blame the sail for poor race results! It was never apparent as to what was wrong with the sail (Seeing that the "high quality" Laser sails had what you could classify as problems such as leech flutter between the top and middle batten).

 

The local sailmaker recommendations are good. I've used them several times to repair ripped luff sleeves resulting from breaking a top section.

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The fact that intensity hasn't folded even though a laser sail from them is 170 dollars versus 605 for the class legal one just goes to show how out of hand this class legal one design bullshit has gotten.

Laser is gouging its clients. I believe most of RS' would say it is not, because it puts back into supporting its classes.

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If everybody did that, the cost of the base product would need to go up.

OK. The cost of the base product would go up, the cost of replacement parts would come down. Why would that be a bad thing?

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The aero (just like the laser used to and still does) also severs another market. Those that see in the boat the ideal Plattform to blast around on their own. Just for the sake of it. Or to store it at their holiday house in Spain or what ever! And simply enjoy the wind (and water) in their hair.

I own an Aero and it would be a pretty crap choice as a beach boat. It is lightweight and quite easily damaged. There are better choices out there for general recreational use.

 

I know what DTA is doing and am pleased he is having fun. I would not however buy a used boat off him.

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The aero (just like the laser used to and still does) also severs another market. Those that see in the boat the ideal Plattform to blast around on their own. Just for the sake of it. Or to store it at their holiday house in Spain or what ever! And simply enjoy the wind (and water) in their hair.

I own an Aero and it would be a pretty crap choice as a beach boat. It is lightweight and quite easily damaged. There are better choices out there for general recreational use.

 

I know what DTA is doing and am pleased he is having fun. I would not however buy a used boat off him.

 

 

great - then don't!

 

better boats out there? maybe, it depends what you want.

 

Beach boat? what is a beach boat? I'd sail a RS areo alone just for fun - I know of others who do too. without beach...

 

it the laser an ideal beach boat? Guess not,

but then look around and see what you find one the beaches all around the world?

 

I'm sure what you thing is a good blast around boat is a qualified assessment

 

however it does not affect people all around the world to buy whatever they want.

 

Is a Porsche a good car for driving around in town?

or a Ferrari?

 

 

Some people spend all they have to buy a Porsche, but then they go cheap on the new tires and braking pads, etc... because they don't need an can't really afford the racing spec.

 

why should anyone give a fuck?

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Some people spend all they have to buy a Porsche, but then they go cheap on the new tires and braking pads, etc... because they don't need an can't really afford the racing spec.

 

why should anyone give a fuck?

Were this "Porsche Anarchy" then I dare say somebody might point out that a cheap supercar has full supercar running costs. Once upon a time Jeremy Clarkson and friends did a feature demonstrating exactly that point. IIRC the "bombshell" line was "yes you can buy a supercar for £6K but for the love of God, don't".

 

Since this is a thread on the Aero, discussion on its application is in order. Discussion on a point is not to be confused with "giving a fuck" about what someone else does.

 

Btw, do you own an Aero?

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If everybody did that, the cost of the base product would need to go up.

OK. The cost of the base product would go up, the cost of replacement parts would come down. Why would that be a bad thing?

 

 

Because it increases the cost of entry to the sport and reduces the supply of new boats to grow the class.

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I am not sure many people buy a new boat like the Aero to enter the sport. Nobody at all I know who has bought one fits that description and I know a few.

 

Harder to launch a new class? Plenty would argue that wouldn't be such a bad thing.

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I am not sure many people buy a new boat like the Aero to enter the sport. Nobody at all I know who has bought one fits that description and I know a few.

 

Harder to launch a new class? Plenty would argue that wouldn't be such a bad thing.

 

'Entering the sport' is a bit vague, but I think I know what you mean.

 

 

We've sold 80+ Aeros so far. Based on a quick scan of the customers, I'd recon about 25% are 'new' to dinghy sailing.

That does *not* mean this is their first dinghy. But, they sailed 10,20,30 years ago, maybe as kids on a Hobie or something.

Then had families, careers, etc.

Nothing else excited them in the singlehanded, non-trap/non-spinnaker world, until the Aero.

 

 

Again, 80 Aeros probably isn't a large enough sample size to say for sure, but it's a sizeable chunk that are getting an Aero to 'get back into the sport of sailing'.

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Some people spend all they have to buy a Porsche, but then they go cheap on the new tires and braking pads, etc... because they don't need an can't really afford the racing spec.

 

why should anyone give a fuck?

Were this "Porsche Anarchy" then I dare say somebody might point out that a cheap supercar has full supercar running costs. Once upon a time Jeremy Clarkson and friends did a feature demonstrating exactly that point. IIRC the "bombshell" line was "yes you can buy a supercar for £6K but for the love of God, don't".

 

Since this is a thread on the Aero, discussion on its application is in order. Discussion on a point is not to be confused with "giving a fuck" about what someone else does.

 

Btw, do you own an Aero?

3 of them.

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Why not buy 'copy' hulls as well then - same argument goes. You should be able to get a 'copy' version at a knock-off (er ... I mean knock-down) price and save a bundle there as well. After all why pay a premium price for 'premum' kit in the first place if you are not too bothered about racing etc .... there will surely be hull copyists attracted before too long - and at a price to attract of course.

 

And before too many get all hot & excitable - that my frends is surely the logical conclusion ? Can't think anyone would have any grounds to get all 'puritan' on any forum. Why should anyone pay a premium price for a hull when they can get more or less the same .. for less ? It would add to consumer choice as well - that must be a 'good thing'. You could even give this new parallel class a catchy name.... Suggestions might be particularly interesting as well .... :)

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the hull can get legal protection under copyright laws

 

the sails, in general, can't

 

if they can argue the sail has some new technology or design element, or something like that - then, that element can be pattented

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Hull protection is very loose in reality - make 'it' just slightly different in several key areas and you are very likely OK... especially if you don't attempt to 'pass it off' as original equipment (ie plain dishonestly!). Also FFS don't call it an 'class' hull, or particularly use a logo that is not yours legally and/or isspecifically protected. Otherwise the law-snakes will come crawling for sure ..... and cheap that adventure will not be.

 

So the question still stands - if you are not into class competition why on earth 'waste' all that hard earned money on the real thing at all ? If the original is good there may be imitation before too long if someone can see money to be made.... and bargains targetting you will come along. Personally I'm not interested in a 'bargain' - it is a bit like putting crossply tyres on a modern car. Sure it still works, gets you around, is uber-economical .. but then why would you bother with a Ferrari at all. Stuff costs - the best stuff costs more.

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i guess we'll have to agree to disagree

 

if i owned an aero, i would not feel the least compunction about using an OD sail to race, and an inexpensive practice sail to practice

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Hull protection is very loose in reality - make 'it' just slightly different in several key areas and you are very likely OK... especially if you don't attempt to 'pass it off' as original equipment (ie plain dishonestly!). Also FFS don't call it an 'class' hull, or particularly use a logo that is not yours legally and/or isspecifically protected. Otherwise the law-snakes will come crawling for sure ..... and cheap that adventure will not be.

 

So the question still stands - if you are not into class competition why on earth 'waste' all that hard earned money on the real thing at all ? If the original is good there may be imitation before too long if someone can see money to be made.... and bargains targetting you will come along. Personally I'm not interested in a 'bargain' - it is a bit like putting crossply tyres on a modern car. Sure it still works, gets you around, is uber-economical .. but then why would you bother with a Ferrari at all. Stuff costs - the best stuff costs more.

 

Whatever the laws are regarding protection of intellectual property in hulls, they have proven to work. You can't go out and buy a knock-off Laser hull. While Intensity has come in to sell cheap sails, neither they nor anyone else has come in to sell cheap Laser knock-off hulls. If it were legally permissible to do so, then I presume that market forces would have brought such a knock-off hull manufacturer to the market by now.

 

So, I'm sure RS Sailing is enjoying and will enjoy the same protections w/ respect to the hull as has the Laser for all these years. And with that legal protection in the hull, everyone will buy their first fully outfitted RS Aero from RS (as it should be). But in terms of the after-sales market of replacement parts that do not enjoy any intellectual property protection, RS will simply have to deal w/ the fact that competitors will come along to fill that market once the market is big enough to attract their attention (as it should be). Based on my very brief email discussion w/ Intensity, there are not yet enough Aero owners to make it worth their while. But there eventually will be.

 

And everything will be right w/ the world because RS will declare that you cannot enter races unless your replacement parts came from RS. Everything will be right because the social butterfly sailors, who require expensive social events (aka regattas) in order to make sailing fun for them, can purchase the expensive replacement parts. And part of this expense will go towards supporting the class, in which they participate. Meanwhile, those like me, who do not require any expensive social events in order to derive pleasure from sailing, can buy the cheaper after-market replacement parts. And this will be proper and correct because I (and those like me) do not partake in the expensive social events that the others pay for with their expensive replacement parts.

 

Everything is working out as it should. I just need to be patient and probably buy one more expensive RS Aero 9 sail from RS Sailing before a non-OEM sail becomes available through Intensity.

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This is all very strange to me b/c I came to water sports through surfing. In surfing, maybe only 5% of the surfing population engages in competition. Most surfers simply enjoy surfing, and no "competition events" are required to make surfing fun.

 

That's what I'm used to. So, sailors are very alien and strange to me. I do not understand why it's the inverse: 95% of sailors engage in "competition events" and can't seem to derive much pleasure from sailing w/o these events. Or, at least, the "competition events", for them, add so much additional pleasure to the sailing that these "competition events" are absolutely necessary in the community, in a way that they are not in surfing.

 

So, what I think this thread is really about is these two different cultural forces w/in sailing. Most sailors really do need racing, regattas, and all of the accompanying social events in order to derive the most pleasure from sailing. These people see the "buy cheap parts" people as freeloaders because these freeloaders are not helping the "class" (i.e. the social, party, racing) aspects of sailing by purchasing cheap replacement parts.

 

But what these "purist" sailors need to understand is that we are not freeloaders. We are not freeloaders because we do not show up to your expensive regattas. While your expensive regatta is going on, we're off at some beach sailing by ourselves.

 

There's room for both of us, and there's justice for both of us. If you want to take your boat to an expensive racing regatta, you've got to have the expensive OEM gear on your boat. But if you don't go to regattas, then you can buy the inexpensive after-market products. This is a just and fair solution because I don't try to show up at your regatta and enter my boat, w/ its cheap after-market parts, into your fancy regatta.

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And everything will be right w/ the world because RS will declare that you cannot enter races unless your replacement parts came from RS. Everything will be right because the social butterfly sailors, who require expensive social events (aka regattas) in order to make sailing fun for them, can purchase the expensive replacement parts. And part of this expense will go towards supporting the class, in which they participate. Meanwhile, those like me, who do not require any expensive social events in order to derive pleasure from sailing, can buy the cheaper after-market replacement parts.

 

 

 

I am a proud social butterfly sailor.

 

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And everything will be right w/ the world because RS will declare that you cannot enter races unless your replacement parts came from RS. Everything will be right because the social butterfly sailors, who require expensive social events (aka regattas) in order to make sailing fun for them, can purchase the expensive replacement parts. And part of this expense will go towards supporting the class, in which they participate. Meanwhile, those like me, who do not require any expensive social events in order to derive pleasure from sailing, can buy the cheaper after-market replacement parts.

 

 

 

I am a proud social butterfly sailor.

 

 

 

 

And there's nothing wrong w/ that! Different strokes for different folks (w/ a separate price point for each!!!)

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DTA - I think there are more dinghy sailers out there who, just like you, have a lot of fun simply blasting around on the water. I'm one of those but also find racing to be fun in a different kind of way. Who knows, you may make some converts based on your posts! The RS700 must be soon to arrive?!

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And everything will be right w/ the world because RS will declare that you cannot enter races unless your replacement parts came from RS. Everything will be right because the social butterfly sailors, who require expensive social events (aka regattas) in order to make sailing fun for them, can purchase the expensive replacement parts. And part of this expense will go towards supporting the class, in which they participate. Meanwhile, those like me, who do not require any expensive social events in order to derive pleasure from sailing, can buy the cheaper after-market replacement parts.

 

 

 

I am a proud social butterfly sailor.

 

 

 

 

And there's nothing wrong w/ that! Different strokes for different folks (w/ a separate price point for each!!!)

 

 

 

I like all kinds of levels of social and unsocial sailing.

 

I like blasting around on my own just for fun.

 

I like practicing on my own.

 

I like sailing in a small one-design fleet at a local club with a few friends.

 

I like sailing in handicap and pursuit races at a local club with a few more friends.

 

I like informal training sessions with a few friends.

 

I like attending sailing clinics with a few more friends.

 

I like small regattas.

 

I like bigger regattas.

 

I like crossing the finish line ahead of over a hundred boats. (Well I did like it the one time I ever achieved this in a Laser!)

 

When I think about why I enjoy sailing with other people it's only partly about the social activities after sailing; it's more about the experience on the water.

 

So to use a different cliche from different strokes, "Variety is the spice of life!"

 

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I join the chorus.

You may have gotten the wrong impression from this thread, but there are many more dinghy sailors that enjoy just messing around than ones that race class legal boats.

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DTA - I think there are more dinghy sailers out there who, just like you, have a lot of fun simply blasting around on the water. I'm one of those but also find racing to be fun in a different kind of way. Who knows, you may make some converts based on your posts! The RS700 must be soon to arrive?!

 

Don't get me wrong. I think the racing stuff is pretty fun as well. And when I'm out on Corpus Christi Bay I'll sometimes see the youth sailing program out doing race practices. They're always nice, and I'll generally race/sail w/ them for an hour or so before heading off on my way.

 

Sailing w/ others is fun, be it racing or just hanging out. Since others like racing so much, I'm keen to hang out w/ them at a racing event when convenient. But I can't get motivated to travel over an hour to go to a race. But others do, and that's cool. I don't take umbrage at others for enjoying sailing in a different way from me. But this thread re sail prices opened a can of worms.

 

And yes - I'm SUPER psyched about the RS 700. After several delays (no fault of RS or the local distributor), I'm now scheduled to pick it up Feb. 25. Perversely, it's kept me from sailing much lately b/c I can't seem to get motivated to go sail my Aero, Laser, or Vago while knowing that my new toy will show up any day now. So, I've stayed super focused on physical conditioning. I still weigh 230 lbs, but the % body fat has gone down considerably and I'm pretty jacked. Can't wait!!!!!

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My comments have nothing to do with equipment being class legal. I also understand the situation with Laser sails, which are average quality, are in poor supply, are over priced and any development costs have been well and truly repaid. I personally believe that the RS picture is different, even for the non racing crowd. I think all owners have an expectation of a level of service when it comes to spares. there are a load of reasons why you might need boat specific parts. Spars break (particularly capsizing in surf), foils get lost (sink to the bottom) and more. If you lose or break any of those, you would hope to get a replacement PDQ. If vDTA trashed his sail in the surf so it couldn't be repaired, I am sure he would want to get back on the water pretty fast and most would hope that a sail was available PDQ. It is reasonable to expect spares to be priced taking into account holding costs etc. What I think is unreasonable is to expect to get spares but then to pick and choose what you buy depending in circumstances and whether you can find somebody who has zero holding costs and no development costs to supply a non original part. As a manufacturer (and distributor) I would say why support the sailors if they don't support my spares business. It's not as if the Aero sail is outrageously priced or that the owners of RS are getting rich off the back of their spare sails business.

 

It is my belief that not supporting RS's spares business is short sighted and cheapskate. I see it like insurance. You pay a bit extra just in case you need it in the future.

 

The problem with sails is that the little guy will always be able to undercut the big guy. It's always been like that and I get the temptation.

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This is all very strange to me b/c I came to water sports through surfing. In surfing, maybe only 5% of the surfing population engages in competition. Most surfers simply enjoy surfing, and no "competition events" are required to make surfing fun.

 

That's what I'm used to. So, sailors are very alien and strange to me. I do not understand why it's the inverse: 95% of sailors engage in "competition events" and can't seem to derive much pleasure from sailing w/o these events. Or, at least, the "competition events", for them, add so much additional pleasure to the sailing that these "competition events" are absolutely necessary in the community, in a way that they are not in surfing.

 

So, what I think this thread is really about is these two different cultural forces w/in sailing. Most sailors really do need racing, regattas, and all of the accompanying social events in order to derive the most pleasure from sailing. These people see the "buy cheap parts" people as freeloaders because these freeloaders are not helping the "class" (i.e. the social, party, racing) aspects of sailing by purchasing cheap replacement parts.

 

But what these "purist" sailors need to understand is that we are not freeloaders. We are not freeloaders because we do not show up to your expensive regattas. While your expensive regatta is going on, we're off at some beach sailing by ourselves.

 

There's room for both of us, and there's justice for both of us. If you want to take your boat to an expensive racing regatta, you've got to have the expensive OEM gear on your boat. But if you don't go to regattas, then you can buy the inexpensive after-market products. This is a just and fair solution because I don't try to show up at your regatta and enter my boat, w/ its cheap after-market parts, into your fancy regatta.

 

DTA

 

Truthfully there are more recreational sailors than racers. Just not on this site. Also in many parts of the world the recreational sailors sail small to medium keel boats so they can cook dinner take a nap whatever. In the Midwest in the summer there a dozens of sailboats not racing on any given weekend. Sunfish, scots, daysailors etc. RS is not one of those boats and this is not one of those websites.

 

So keep looking for that practice sail. But I would generally second or third the find a local sail loft and see what they can do for you. It supports the sport (or recreation) on a local level and solves your problem for less money than a new sail.

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Whatever the laws are regarding protection of intellectual property in hulls, they have proven to work. You can't go out and buy a knock-off Laser hull. While Intensity has come in to sell cheap sails, neither they nor anyone else has come in to sell cheap Laser knock-off hulls. If it were legally permissible to do so, then I presume that market forces would have brought such a knock-off hull manufacturer to the market by now.

 

 

 

Knock-off/replica/copy Laser hulls are available. They have been making them in China (and south America) for a few years now IIRC.

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Whatever the laws are regarding protection of intellectual property in hulls, they have proven to work. You can't go out and buy a knock-off Laser hull. While Intensity has come in to sell cheap sails, neither they nor anyone else has come in to sell cheap Laser knock-off hulls. If it were legally permissible to do so, then I presume that market forces would have brought such a knock-off hull manufacturer to the market by now.

 

 

 

Knock-off/replica/copy Laser hulls are available. They have been making them in China (and south America) for a few years now IIRC.

 

 

 

Link??

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Whatever the laws are regarding protection of intellectual property in hulls, they have proven to work. You can't go out and buy a knock-off Laser hull. While Intensity has come in to sell cheap sails, neither they nor anyone else has come in to sell cheap Laser knock-off hulls. If it were legally permissible to do so, then I presume that market forces would have brought such a knock-off hull manufacturer to the market by now.

 

 

 

Knock-off/replica/copy Laser hulls are available. They have been making them in China (and south America) for a few years now IIRC.

 

 

 

Link??

 

 

that's a different problem - some countries don't enforce copyright law

 

i doubt you could buy one in the USA or GB

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Whatever the laws are regarding protection of intellectual property in hulls, they have proven to work. You can't go out and buy a knock-off Laser hull. While Intensity has come in to sell cheap sails, neither they nor anyone else has come in to sell cheap Laser knock-off hulls. If it were legally permissible to do so, then I presume that market forces would have brought such a knock-off hull manufacturer to the market by now.

 

 

 

Knock-off/replica/copy Laser hulls are available. They have been making them in China (and south America) for a few years now IIRC.

 

 

 

Link??

 

 

None needed, Jeffers is completely correct.

Been to one of the factories myself.

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I've seen knock-off Sunfish and Lasers in South America. Didn't appear to be factory produced for retail sales...looked more like a locally produced small production run to fill a local need, like a resort or sailing club/school. The boats looked to be of pretty low quality. By the time they pay purchase price, shipping, and import duties, a small dinghy becomes expensive even by our standards, and South Americans in general have a lower income level than in the US. I'm pretty sure Sunfish-Laser would have been aware of it, but likely figured it wasn't cost effective to go after.

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Whatever the laws are regarding protection of intellectual property in hulls, they have proven to work. You can't go out and buy a knock-off Laser hull. While Intensity has come in to sell cheap sails, neither they nor anyone else has come in to sell cheap Laser knock-off hulls. If it were legally permissible to do so, then I presume that market forces would have brought such a knock-off hull manufacturer to the market by now.

 

 

 

Knock-off/replica/copy Laser hulls are available. They have been making them in China (and south America) for a few years now IIRC.

 

 

 

Link??

 

 

None needed, Jeffers is completely correct.

Been to one of the factories myself.

 

 

But it sounds like this is a completely different issue. Neither I, nor anyone else in this thread, is advocating that sailors assist criminals in thwarting international law regarding protection of intellectual property. If something is legally protected through intellectual property laws (e.g. boat hulls, movies, music), then those legal protections should be respected. Nothing I have said, nor what anyone else in this thread has said, is contrary to that.

 

Rather, some appear to argue that even if a boat part is NOT protected by intellectual property laws, and it is perfectly legal for a competitor to sell that part in an after-sales market, then sailors should nonetheless obey some unwritten moral code and refuse to purchase the non-OEM boat part.

 

So, a bit of a "straw man" argument going on here.

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Hey DTA,

I like your videos and am surprised you've only trashed your sail vs mast / boom etc. Have your thought about some way to disconnect the clue from the boom when you capsize? Maybe some kind of martin breaker triggered by easing the main sheet to 90 degrees? Seems like it would reduce sail wear tremendously. Maybe a rigger can chime in. Would need to be easy to hook back up obviously.

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Hey DTA,

I like your videos and am surprised you've only trashed your sail vs mast / boom etc. Have your thought about some way to disconnect the clue from the boom when you capsize? Maybe some kind of martin breaker triggered by easing the main sheet to 90 degrees? Seems like it would reduce sail wear tremendously. Maybe a rigger can chime in. Would need to be easy to hook back up obviously.

 

The Aero is a surprisingly tough boat. I knew it wasn't going to be as tough as the Laser (which is built like a tank and weighs like one too) when I bought it, but I've been surprised at how resilient it is. My only real complaints (which aren't really complaints but observations) are that the sail does not seem as hardy as a Laser sail,*** and the glue on the daggerboard trunk tube fluff strip keeps melting in hot conditions. But I've pole vaulted the mast off the bottom multiple times, and the boom has speared into the bottom in shallow surf as well (ripping off the attached GoPro!!). And the Aero just keeps on ticking - so yes, I'm impressed overall at how unexpectedly resilient it is.

 

But I'm not sure about that proposed solution. Even if it could be disengaged from the clew easily, it really would have to be re-engaged easily. I don't really see how it could be done upright on the water in heavy winds, so I imagine the re-engaging would have to be done while the boat is over on its side. I think if I buy one more new sail from RS, and keep the old one on life support per the repair suggestions in this thread, I can keep myself Aero sailing for another couple years easy. That's not too bad an expenditure.

 

*** The sail damage really started when one of the battens punched through the sleeve end. It might be an issue of the Aero batten being sharper or not having as soft of a rubber end plug as the Laser batten I used. So, maybe the sail is just as tough, but the problem is w/ the batten. Not sure. But once that batten ripped through, problems started spider-webbing out from there.

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Whatever the laws are regarding protection of intellectual property in hulls, they have proven to work. You can't go out and buy a knock-off Laser hull. While Intensity has come in to sell cheap sails, neither they nor anyone else has come in to sell cheap Laser knock-off hulls. If it were legally permissible to do so, then I presume that market forces would have brought such a knock-off hull manufacturer to the market by now.

 

 

 

Knock-off/replica/copy Laser hulls are available. They have been making them in China (and south America) for a few years now IIRC.

 

 

 

Link??

 

 

that's a different problem - some countries don't enforce copyright law

 

i doubt you could buy one in the USA or GB

 

 

 

Not looking to buy as I already own two lasers. Just wondering how different they. Just overall interest.

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Whatever the laws are regarding protection of intellectual property in hulls, they have proven to work. You can't go out and buy a knock-off Laser hull. While Intensity has come in to sell cheap sails, neither they nor anyone else has come in to sell cheap Laser knock-off hulls. If it were legally permissible to do so, then I presume that market forces would have brought such a knock-off hull manufacturer to the market by now.

 

 

 

Knock-off/replica/copy Laser hulls are available. They have been making them in China (and south America) for a few years now IIRC.

 

 

 

Link??

 

 

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Laser-Standard-Laser-One-Sailboat_296156358.html

 

30 seconds using google yielded that.

 

As others have said it is a different issue to the sail question.

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30 seconds using google yielded that.

 

As others have said it is a different issue to the sail question.

 

 

Wow - that website is sketchy as hell. I can't believe anyone would actually order from it, pay money, and hope that the sketchy boat builder sends you the illegal boat. You can't really sue if he doesn't (i.e. "he didn't send me the illegal boat that I illegally bought!").

 

But at least you get an upgrade to a "Carbon Fibre Hull" for having taken the risk!!!!

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Not to mention that picture was pulled from the Wikipedia article on Lasers.

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30 seconds using google yielded that.

 

As others have said it is a different issue to the sail question.

 

 

Wow - that website is sketchy as hell. I can't believe anyone would actually order from it, pay money, and hope that the sketchy boat builder sends you the illegal boat. You can't really sue if he doesn't (i.e. "he didn't send me the illegal boat that I illegally bought!").

 

But at least you get an upgrade to a "Carbon Fibre Hull" for having taken the risk!!!!

 

 

 

you've never heard of Alibaba?

 

"At closing time on the date of its initial public offering (IPO), 19 September 2014, Alibaba's market value was US$231 billion."

 

billion.., with a b...

 

Alibaba might be the world's largest online retailer

 

but - i think that not everything on the website is actually available for sale

 

here's another bit of info

 

"Alibaba reported its fourth quarter and fiscal year 2016 (quarter and year ending March 31, 2016) results today, on May 5, 2015. Alibaba reported a gross merchandise volume (GMV) of $485 billion in FY 2016. This is higher than $482 billion of revenues reported by Walmart in its fiscal year 2016, which ended on January 31, 2016."

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I should have said "this sketchy vendor advertising on Alibaba." I've heard of Alibaba. It's basically the mideast version of Craigslist, Amazon, etc. And you can go on Craigslist and find prostitution, drugs, and other illegal materials/services for sale. But you're right - it's actually the vendor that's sketchy, more so than the website.

 

I'm guessing the boat maker doesn't sell its wares on Craigslist simply because the Craigslist customer base is mostly American, and the boat would never make it past U.S. customs agents. I'm guessing the customer base of Alibaba is mainly in countries with customs agents that don't really enforce intellectual property laws.

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