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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

Trimaran Foiling Systems

125 posts in this topic

There are a number of new trimaran foilers announced using a variety of foil systems:

 

1) Cirrus: uses slightly Uptip ama foils + rudder t foils, http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=179995

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2) TF-10: uses very deep surface piercing foils similar in design to A Class Z foils and Nacra 17 foils, http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=180395

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3) Super Foiler: uses Uptip ama foils with rudder T-foils, http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/new-trimaran-foilers-55834.html

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4) Exocet: uses Uptip ama foils with rudder T foils. Way behind schedule but probably still under development.

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5) Banque Populaire and Spindrift: will use Uptip ama foils with rudder T-foils ready between now and 2019,

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6) Maserati(converted MOD 70): uses 3 point foil system(similar to Fire Arrow, see below) with adjustable AOI main foil and ama "L" foils inserted at an angle so that when immersed they automatically control ama altitude by working like an Uptip foil includes dual rudder T-foil on each ama. Tmeporaily configured to only fly on starboard tack due to damage to the stb ama foil.

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7) Fire Arrow (WOLF-full size version under development- 15.5'LOA X 18' Beam) : unique 3 point foil system with wand controlled, retractable main foil and retractable Uptip ama foil. System is specifically designed to allow an oversquare platform to fly in light air with takeoff in 5 knot wind. The basic foil system has been tested on the Fire Arrow Test Model and on the 70' Maserati.

Design, Build and Development thread for the Fire Arrow Test Model and the full size WOLF-daughter of fire arrow:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-test-model-36058-167.html

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8) F101- bi-foiler foil arrangement-- http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/new-trimaran-foilers-55834.html

post-30-0-85064700-1487466159_thumb.png

post-30-0-94362600-1487466311_thumb.jpg

post-30-0-87697000-1487466399_thumb.png

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There are many more,

SeaCart 26, C-foil

Catri trimarans, 5 foil / and T-foil

FARRIER F-85, C-foil

Windrider T-foil

Hydroptere / foil, T rudder

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Don't feed the troll!

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There are many more,

SeaCart 26, C-foil

Catri trimarans, 5 foil / and T-foil

FARRIER F-85, C-foil

Windrider T-foil

Hydroptere / foil, T rudder

 

I didn't count foil assist tri's only full flying tris currently being built or under development. Hydroptere is dead for now. Windrider is developing a foiler-I forgot that one-though they are way behind their own schedule. They haven't got it to foil under sail yet but were able to pull it up with a powerboat. I hope they can get it in production!

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Seems to me that some of the newest trimaran foilers will be among the most comfortable and easiest to sail of all foilers. Going to be great seeing some these flying! And my 15 footer will be the best boat I've ever done(out of many) should it get built. It will use the Fire Arrow Foil System on a foldable 18' wide platform with 165 sq' of upwind sail area and 350 downwind and 200lb all up-foam and carbon.

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The foil system is based on arrow configuration, reason is - well try throw a dart arrow and watch how instabile it gets.... if you remove the rear wings...

 

.

post-33126-0-43975100-1487893224.jpeg

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Seems to me that some of the newest trimaran foilers will be among the most comfortable and easiest to sail of all foilers. Going to be great seeing some these flying! And my 15 footer will be the best boat I've ever done(out of many) should it get built. It will use the Fire Arrow Foil System on a foldable 18' wide platform with 165 sq' of upwind sail area and 350 downwind and 200lb all up-foam and carbon.

I just cannot stop laughing

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Doug,

Your 15 foot foiler will never happen - you spend so much time on these forums you'll never get out of the house. And if you're basing your new boat on the "Fire Arrow's" hops and jumps its not a very definitive reason to move on to the next model is it? Seriously, wouldn't you need to have had the "Fire Arrow" sailing all over the shop in all wind strengths before moving on?

 

Bas

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Interesting that when Maserati was Gitana she had a port and stb uptip ama foil and no "Manta"(daggerboard) foil:


Gitana pix by Yvan Zedda:



2me302c.jpg


xgcz8x.jpg

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Just note that , flying is not a permament mode,there is always some assisted mode involved.

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Definitely depends on the conditions and design of the foiler. Some foilers have a much wider range of flying than do others.

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As mentioned above I can find no more info on the M24 foil system regarding a foil on the daggerboard. Either secret or just not there.......

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Doesn't appear present in this photo Doug, if it there that is one hell of an angle required to keep it under water, or very very long central daggerboard: http://www.macifcourseaularge.com/actualites/le-m24-un-laboratoire-flottant-au-service-de-la-performance. I think the ama lifting w/ central main foil providing leeway is an interesting concept, though it would be fantastic to get a full interview with Maserati on the history of getting that beast to foil and why they went the direction they did.

 

Really cool mod, I'd be curious if the Diam folks take it and run with it in a modified version of their production boat.

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Sam this is what Maserati originally said about the "Manta" foil:

 

First* trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability on the horizontal loading-bearing surface of her centerboard, Maserati Multi70 brilliantly puts into practice Guillaume Vernier and his Team’s idea of flying on three resting points using a load-bearing centerboard, L-foil and a rudder instead of the two rudders and single foil adopted on America’s Cup cats.
Giovanni Soldini and his Team are engaged in a new challenge as they endeavour to turn Maserati Multi70 into the first ocean-going flying trimaran. An ambitious project that spans not just Guillaume Vernier’s excellent work (he worked on the modifications to her appendages) but also over 4.000 nautical miles of sailing clocked up by the Team this summer.
The straight central daggerboard plays a revolutionary role in this new flying trim as the horizontal load bearing surface at its end generates lift, raising the boat out of the water. “When Maserati Multi70 rises up on her lateral foil and rudder, the daggerboard wing acts as a third resting point – the central and largest one”.
Tests in wind of 40 knots have demonstrated that Maserati Multi70 is now much more stabilized and able to fly in conditions unthinkable before. Safely tackling also big seas.
* Wrong-the Fire Arrow was the first trimaran in the world to fly on a daggerboard foil in combo with uptip foils on each ama.

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Doug, often things are tried on R/C airplanes first then put into practice in larger craft. The latter get all the glory and credit-just don't expect maserati or VPLP to change their press releases.

 

The only statement of note is the last sentence, with the central daggerboard resulting in higher stability and the ability to fly in perhaps worse sea state. My question is related to how they got there and the deficiencies with the AC style foiling system when applied to a trimaran. I'm extrapolating that the ama mounted foils alone are faster across a wide range of speed but the beams cannot handle those sort of loads in heavy sea state, reducing the operational range. Nothing is said regarding performance-based on the above information out of MACIF, they are testing flapped ama foils => faster than having a third main foil. Recall, their Ultim was designed from day 1 for full flight and I believe their Diam is a special build also designed for full flight, so they don't have the structural limitations that Maserati may have.

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Sam, where did you see that they were testing with flapped ama foils?



===================================




For the record the Fire Arrow Foil System used first on the Test Model and then on Maserati and next on WOLF can allow these features-not found together on any other trimaran anywhere at any time(so far) :


(added #10 3/10/17)



1) actively controlled main foil-dual wand control on Fire Arrow. Maserati controls the AOI of their mainfoil manually. Advantage is main hull altitude control and controlled angle of heel (about 10 degrees on the Fire Arrow)as well as ride angle control of the lee uptip ama foil. A big advantage of the Fire Arrow Foil System is that roll attitude is controllable on both boats and can be configured for level flying or flying at an angle of heel by simply adjusting the flying altitude of the main hull.


-


2) UptiP ama foils. Maserati has only one foil that works like an UptiP foil but will install a second at some point. Advantage is automatic ama altitude control with no moving parts. The Fire Arrow Test Model was the first trimaran anywhere to use uptip ama foils. These foils allow automatic altitude control of the ama with no moving parts.


-


3) Rudder T-foil(s). The Fire Arrow Test model and the new WOLF use a single rudder T-foil whereas Maserati uses two.


-


4) Dual altitude control systems on Fire Arrow and Maserati. The ama foils and main foil use two different types of altitude control simultaneously.


-


5) The Fire Arrow Foil System can allow a trimaran to develop downforce on the main foil which increases RM and can allow automatic gust response. It can also allow the WOLF ,15.5' version of the Fire Arrow to be sailed singlehanded in up to around 20 knots of wind with no reef.


-


6) The Fire Arrow Foil System allows an oversquare trimaran platform to take off in very light air.


-


7) The Fire Arrow Foil System has increased pitch control authority compared to a "normal" tri.


-


8) The Fire Arrow Foil System allows the mainfoil to begin to unload right after takeoff reducing induced drag.


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9) The Fire Arrow has pioneered the concept of a Two Stage ama--the ama planing hull and the "curved piece".


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10) High crossarm dihedral coupled with the two stage ama on Fire Arrow/WOLF eliminates the need to raise/lower the uptip ama foils with every tack and gybe as must be done with other boats using uptip foils.


-


11) The Fire Arrow oversquare platform allows the crew to sit comfortably on the side of the cockpit without having to sit out on the ama while still having more RM than any current production trimaran her length.


-


12) The boat may be able to be configured to be 100% self-righting.


------------------------------


The differences between Fire Arrow(WOLF) and Maserati are specifically related to the size of the two boats and the mission of the boats. Both boats use a virtually identical foil configuration for entirely different purposes: The Fire Arrow(WOLF) is a small sport trimaran that maximizes light air takeoff and ease of handling for one to two people and may be able to be self-righting with no crew action required. Maserati is a fully crewed ocean racing trimaran.


The Fire Arrow Foil System is a revolutionary foil configuration for trimarans from very small to very large and is capable of being configured for different missions while retaining the unique qualities of the System. Maserati and Fire Arrow(Wolf) are the only two trimarans in the history of the world to have ever used this system-but not the last.



Fire Arrow Test Model-picture by Doug Lord and Dan Burke:



2qi5ks4.jpg


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Couldn't it also just be that Maserati came with some first gen board(s) that didn't provide enough lift all the time? or maybe they were so draggy at high lift, that sticking another lifting surface on the center daggerboard was a creative and cost effective solution? I give them credit and am positive it was the cheapest way to get more lift and reduce the criticality of the leeward board foiling well.

 

The people who developed the pre-Maserati tri sailed it as a trial horse and I'm sure did not attain perfection with their first major effort. From what I see, the big ultime programs are not adopting the Maserati style but perhaps they will over time to deal better with wave state.

 

It is unfortunate Doug has inclined people against the Maserati work with the over posting and analogous claims. I can see the benefit in ocean waves even if it is not a perfect solution.

Doug, if you want to support their work, please stop tainting it with over promotion as you have foils on this forum that manage heave stability with leeway. The irony is that such foils loose some of their heave stability with a central daggerboard deployed that reduces the leeway important to their stability.

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Couldn't it also just be that Maserati came with some first gen board(s) that didn't provide enough lift all the time? or maybe they were so draggy at high lift, that sticking another lifting surface on the center daggerboard was a creative and cost effective solution? I give them credit and am positive it was the cheapest way to get more lift and reduce the criticality of the leeward board foiling well.

 

The people who developed the pre-Maserati tri sailed it as a trial horse and I'm sure did not attain perfection with their first major effort. From what I see, the big ultime programs are not adopting the Maserati style but perhaps they will over time to deal better with wave state.

 

It is unfortunate Doug has inclined people against the Maserati work with the over posting and analogous claims. I can see the benefit in ocean waves even if it is not a perfect solution.

Doug, if you want to support their work, please stop tainting it with over promotion as you have foils on this forum that manage heave stability with leeway. The irony is that such foils loose some of their heave stability with a central daggerboard deployed that reduces the leeway important to their stability.

 

Thats not true on the Fire Arrow Foil System: the vertical portion of the ama foil has a +3 degree angle of incidence whereas the daggerboard has a zero degree angle of incidence. Therefore, the vertical portion of the ama foil is always loaded and the ama foil always provides excellent altitude control.

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VPLP claim "First* trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability"

 

At no point has the FireTurD ever flown with effortless stabilty.

 

So DougLess it is you who is wrong....... Again

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The foil system for Maserati was designed by Guillaume Verdier, not VPLP(who designed the boat). The beauty of Maserati is not that it was the first to use the basic Fire Arrow Foil System(which it was not), but that it has close to 6000 miles or more on the daggerboard foil and port ama foil system. And despite damage from a collision that shut down the stb ama foil system she has shown progressive improvement in every race sailed so far. She has proven that the basic Fire Arrow Foil System works exceptionally well on a 70' tri. She is the FIRST tri longer than 5.5' to use the basic Fire Arrow Foil System and has 100% proved that the system is an improvement in foiling trimaran design.

Next for Maserati is the Transpac with the stb ama foil system repaired-no limitations!

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TF10 Foil System See here for full story: https://www.tf10trifoiler.com/ So far the TF 10 is the only foiling trimaran designed to use surface piercing "Z" foils on each ama in combination with rudder T-foils:

 

 

Excerpt:

 

 

"The foils on the TF10 allow levels of fun and performance formerly reserved for America’s Cup and professionally crewed racing catamarans. The main difference between the America’s Cup style foils and the foils on the TF10 are that you do not need to retract and deploy the foils during each tack or jibe maneuver – you simply leave them down! This feature greatly simplifies maneuvers and allows the TF10 to be sailed on short courses with relative ease. You can sail all day and not have to retract a foil.

The T rudders provide pitch stability when foiling or not, improving controllability and motion comfort in every condition. Both the foils and rudders are remotely controlled from the cockpit using electronic controls. Simply press a button to change angle of attack and lift. The rudders can be used to generate additional righting moment and speed if desired. The foils are fully retractable and removable from the deck, allowing easy folding while on the water. The rudders are designed to pivot up for folding and mooring, and have a load-release mechanism to allow the rudders to kick up in the event of grounding."

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Couldn't it also just be that Maserati came with some first gen board(s) that didn't provide enough lift all the time? or maybe they were so draggy at high lift, that sticking another lifting surface on the center daggerboard was a creative and cost effective solution? I give them credit and am positive it was the cheapest way to get more lift and reduce the criticality of the leeward board foiling well.

 

The people who developed the pre-Maserati tri sailed it as a trial horse and I'm sure did not attain perfection with their first major effort. From what I see, the big ultime programs are not adopting the Maserati style but perhaps they will over time to deal better with wave state.

 

It is unfortunate Doug has inclined people against the Maserati work with the over posting and analogous claims. I can see the benefit in ocean waves even if it is not a perfect solution.

Doug, if you want to support their work, please stop tainting it with over promotion as you have foils on this forum that manage heave stability with leeway. The irony is that such foils loose some of their heave stability with a central daggerboard deployed that reduces the leeway important to their stability.

 

Thats not true on the Fire Arrow Foil System: the vertical portion of the ama foil has a +3 degree angle of incidence whereas the daggerboard has a zero degree angle of incidence. Therefore, the vertical portion of the ama foil is always loaded and the ama foil always provides excellent altitude control.

 

It is funny how you just don't get what peeps are telling you: Stop your incessant posting about projects that you have very little insight into - and especially your inference that these programs/projects are using your FlAmInGaNuS toyboat "technology" - you are a fucking joke. The tRump of the SA

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"christian", what's funny, no, pathetic is that when it comes to foiling or foiling systems you are among the most stupid, least informed, clueless keyboard fools on this forum!

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"christian", what's funny, no, pathetic is that when it comes to foiling or foiling systems you are among the most stupid, least informed, clueless keyboard fools on this forum!

Go stick your toy up your ass

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And how does that rate as serious comment or a valuable contribution to the knowledge base of those with an interest in multis or foils? Just be nice children.

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Still pimping and preening as if you actually made a thing that worked, I see. It has now moved past simply funny to sadly pathetic. Perhaps a shrewdly positioned "retirement" announcement is in order at this point what with the bad back, incontinence and all the other maladies? Nobody would find fault if you simply scuttled off at this point, what with all the monumental signature things you have named and created.

 

.

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When I first realized what TNZ had done in 34, I was elated because-finally-there appeared to be a foil that could be used on a trimaran ama which would automatically control its own altitude with no moving parts*.

* surface piercing and "V" foils can work similarly, with their own advantages, but not with all the advantages of an Uptip foil, in my opinion.

For trimaran design that's a big deal. But there remained a problem: all the trimarans using Uptip foils(see the list in the first post) might be burdened with the same problem the cats had- they would have to raise the windward board after a tack or gybe. And so they are-including Maserati,the new Spindrift, the new Banque Populaire, the new SuperFoiler from Morrelli and Melvin, the new Cirrus, the M24 Test Boat from Macif, the Ultime Macif and the 19' Exocet.

All the foiling tri's using Uptip foils except two-the Fire Arrow and the fullsize Wolf design(under development) using the Fire Arrow Foil System. These two boats use an Uptip foil on each ama that never needs to be retracted during a tack or gybe. This is a major reduction in crew workload while still allowing the major benefits of an Uptip foil which include automatic altitude control and shallow draft(when compared to a foiler using a "Z" foil). This works because the boats are designed to sail at a 10 degree angle of heel-a compromise that is well worth it on a "sport boat" designed primarily for fun flying. Of course, a turboed version of WOLF would use a canting mast to eliminate the downside of the 10 degree angle of heel.

 

 

 

Picture by Doug Lord and Dan Burke:

 

2qlww1f.jpg

That's a great photo of your HippiTyHoP ToY BoaT ThingY. Care to post any pictures of real foiling boats?

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So the same shit goes on and on and on. Is there no end to this neverending regurgitated crap? For Christ sakes Dougie get some new material/photos. I come here to read about new and interesting stuff about foils, not what heppened to the pond toy 2 or 3 years ago. Please be a good man and move on.

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you know, DL's RC trimaran thread over at BD is basically dead since barely anyone interacts with him anymore. food for thought.....

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That's an outright ,uninformed lie! That thread is one of the top viewed threads on the whole forum: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-test-model-36058-168.html#post800853

 

492,124 views- the most viewed thread on "multihulls" on boatdesign!

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you know, DL's RC trimaran thread over at BD is basically dead since barely anyone interacts with him anymore. food for thought.....

Agree.

 

If folks would just put him on ignore or at least stop responding to him he would go away. And for gosh sakes, stop quoting him.

 

First and only person I ever put on ignore (finally).

 

All the folks that keep engaging the muppet just keep bringing him back. If you want to escape the crazy color and caps and endless failed pond toy claims, his constant reposting of the same tired shit and old press releases/videos, just stop engaging him.

 

Nobody serious and intelligent in the space ever engages him; why do you?

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you know, DL's RC trimaran thread over at BD is basically dead since barely anyone interacts with him anymore. food for thought.....

Agree.

 

If folks would just put him on ignore or at least stop responding to him he would go away. And for gosh sakes, stop quoting him.

 

First and only person I ever put on ignore (finally).

 

All the folks that keep engaging the muppet just keep bringing him back. If you want to escape the crazy color and caps and endless failed pond toy claims, his constant reposting of the same tired shit and old press releases/videos, just stop engaging him.

 

Nobody serious and intelligent in the space ever engages him; why do you?

 

 

You got that right-you and your half-ass buddies* certainly aren't serious or intelligent when it comes to foiling, foiling systems or my work! Why do you waste your time even posting here-you don't even know what I'm talking about?

 

*bloodshot, basildog ,chris oh, "christian" !

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you know, DL's RC trimaran thread over at BD is basically dead since barely anyone interacts with him anymore. food for thought.....

Agree.

 

If folks would just put him on ignore or at least stop responding to him he would go away. And for gosh sakes, stop quoting him.

 

First and only person I ever put on ignore (finally).

 

All the folks that keep engaging the muppet just keep bringing him back. If you want to escape the crazy color and caps and endless failed pond toy claims, his constant reposting of the same tired shit and old press releases/videos, just stop engaging him.

 

Nobody serious and intelligent in the space ever engages him; why do you?

 

 

 

You know, Wess. With all due respect, it's that same attitude that got Trump elected.

 

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

 

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That's an outright ,uninformed lie! That thread is one of the top viewed threads on the whole forum: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-test-model-36058-168.html#post800853

 

492,124 views- the most viewed thread on "multihulls" on boatdesign!

People always have a fascination with train wrecks and here is a classic case. I enjoy looking in just to see how the claims get bigger and bigger. It's cathartic watching the delusions grow. I particularly like to keep track of how certain claims change over time, such as hours spent sailing a Rave increasing by a factor of 20 times over a period when it is clear Doug never sailed and the only way it could have increased is if he was sailing 20 hours per week. Or how 2 outings in 6 weeks for the toy tri becomes 6 weeks of development and a lot more sailing, even though he had previously said he couldn't sail because he had nobody to help him and it was impossible to sail on his own and it wasn't worth while without video.

 

We all know that Doug will now launch personal attacks and call it all lies, but this is all out there on various forums and despite Doug's previous efforts to change past posts and threads, he is sunk by his own words.

 

Maybe I am as flawed as Doug just for reading and knowing this shit. I am slowly getting better and don't often bite, but sometimes the temptation becomes too much. Back to rehab for me.....

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you know, DL's RC trimaran thread over at BD is basically dead since barely anyone interacts with him anymore. food for thought.....

Agree.

 

If folks would just put him on ignore or at least stop responding to him he would go away. And for gosh sakes, stop quoting him.

 

First and only person I ever put on ignore (finally).

 

All the folks that keep engaging the muppet just keep bringing him back. If you want to escape the crazy color and caps and endless failed pond toy claims, his constant reposting of the same tired shit and old press releases/videos, just stop engaging him.

 

Nobody serious and intelligent in the space ever engages him; why do you?

 

 

 

You know, Wess. With all due respect, it's that same attitude that got Trump elected.

 

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

 

 

Oh come on. This is hardly world politics or earth shaking. Evil? Are you saving the world from a muppet? Seriously?? Isn't that just maybe a little bit over the top? If somebody wants to buy into the muppet's vision and and build a real boat out of it, it might be fun to watch, no? He does not rise to Trump on any level. Heck, Trump got enough folks to vote for him that he got elected! Our resident muppet can't get anyone (not a single soul after 10s of 1000s of posts) to follow his delusions of grandeur.

 

Just use the ignore function. Its easy. Once it became clear he is only talking to himself, maybe the muppet would leave and then intelligent folks in the space would back to the discussion. SA ain't gonna ban him. They gotta love it! Like GBR said, train wrecks draw a crowd. Hard to find a bigger train wreck on here than him.

 

So just say no...

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Most of the views could be search engines checking out the new posts - they never get bored with repetition, but simply document it all.

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That's an outright ,uninformed lie! That thread is one of the top viewed threads on the whole forum: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-test-model-36058-168.html#post800853

 

492,124 views- the most viewed thread on "multihulls" on boatdesign!

You must be logging in to the site at quite some frequency - almost nobody else does

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you know, DL's RC trimaran thread over at BD is basically dead since barely anyone interacts with him anymore. food for thought.....

Agree.

 

If folks would just put him on ignore or at least stop responding to him he would go away. And for gosh sakes, stop quoting him.

 

First and only person I ever put on ignore (finally).

 

All the folks that keep engaging the muppet just keep bringing him back. If you want to escape the crazy color and caps and endless failed pond toy claims, his constant reposting of the same tired shit and old press releases/videos, just stop engaging him.

 

Nobody serious and intelligent in the space ever engages him; why do you?

 

 

 

You know, Wess. With all due respect, it's that same attitude that got Trump elected.

 

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

 

 

Oh come on. This is hardly world politics or earth shaking. Evil? Are you saving the world from a muppet? Seriously??

 

 

It's a metaphor, Bubba. You've gotten way too serious about this. It's suitable for framing, should you be so inclined. Otherwise, just follow your own advice and let it go.

 

Doug has never responded to serious advice, or commentary, in all the years I have had his acquaintance. His personally held sense of heroism is legendary. He makes junk. He tells junk fables to himself and anyone who is nutty enough to listen with sincerity and he waits for death to claim his body. So, I switched to pure comedy and satire as a way to issue comments in his direction. Also, I hardly ever post here anymore and that, too, has been interesting from an observational perspective.

 

I don't really care and neither should you.

 

That should be clear enough.

.

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you know, DL's RC trimaran thread over at BD is basically dead since barely anyone interacts with him anymore. food for thought.....

Agree.

 

If folks would just put him on ignore or at least stop responding to him he would go away. And for gosh sakes, stop quoting him.

 

First and only person I ever put on ignore (finally).

 

All the folks that keep engaging the muppet just keep bringing him back. If you want to escape the crazy color and caps and endless failed pond toy claims, his constant reposting of the same tired shit and old press releases/videos, just stop engaging him.

 

Nobody serious and intelligent in the space ever engages him; why do you?

 

You know, Wess. With all due respect, it's that same attitude that got Trump elected.

 

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

 

Oh come on. This is hardly world politics or earth shaking. Evil? Are you saving the world from a muppet? Seriously??

 

It's a metaphor, Bubba. You've gotten way too serious about this. It's suitable for framing, should you be so inclined. Otherwise, just follow your own advice and let it go.

 

Doug has never responded to serious advice, or commentary, in all the years I have had his acquaintance. His personally held sense of heroism is legendary. He makes junk. He tells junk fables to himself and anyone who is nutty enough to listen with sincerity and he waits for death to claim his body. So, I switched to pure comedy and satire as a way to issue comments in his direction. Also, I hardly ever post here anymore and that, too, has been interesting from an observational perspective.

 

I don't really care and neither should you.

 

That should be clear enough.

.

Life is good. Now we've got dumb picking on dumber.

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Foiler tri Test Models:

 

#1

5.5' Model of a 15.5 ' Foiling Sport Tri:

 

 

When I first realized what TNZ had done in 34, I was elated because-finally-there appeared to be a foil that could be used on a trimaran ama which would automatically control its own altitude with no moving parts*.

* surface piercing and "V" foils can work similarly, with their own advantages, but not with all the advantages of an Uptip foil, in my opinion.

For trimaran design that's a big deal. But there remained a problem: all the trimarans using Uptip foils(see the list in the first post) might be burdened with the same problem the cats had- they would have to raise the windward board after a tack or gybe. And so they are-including Maserati,the new Spindrift, the new Banque Populaire, the new SuperFoiler from Morrelli and Melvin, the new Cirrus, the M24 Test Boat from Macif, the Ultime Macif and the 19' Exocet.

All the foiling tri's using Uptip foils except two-the Fire Arrow and the fullsize Wolf design(under development) using the Fire Arrow Foil System. These two boats use an Uptip foil on each ama that never needs to be retracted during a tack or gybe. This is a major reduction in crew workload while still allowing the major benefits of an Uptip foil which include automatic altitude control and shallow draft(when compared to a foiler using a "Z" foil). This works because the boats are designed to sail at a 10 degree angle of heel-a compromise that is well worth it on a "sport boat" designed primarily for fun flying. Of course, a turboed version of WOLF would use a canting mast to eliminate the downside of the 10 degree angle of heel.

 

 

 

Picture by Doug Lord and Dan Burke:

 

2qlww1f.jpg

 

 

#2

24' Model of a 100' Foiling Ocean Racing Tri:

 

-----

M24-first found by zzarganas in Diam 24 thread.

http://forums.sailin...69#entry5667941

----------------------------------

UPDATE- as of 3/25/17-- no further information on whether or not there is a foil on the daggerboard.......

Striking new 24' foiler from Macif/Francis Gabart :

This boat is being used as an experimental test boat close to scale of the full size Macif to test foils and foil combinations. In the picture below you can see two different ama foils both of which work like uptip foils with intrinsic altitude control. Both amas have rudder T foils.

NOTE: One of the French guys on facebook claims that the daggerboard has a "horizontal plane, trim everything". Just spectacular if true!
PICTURE by Alexis Courcoux:
wko7rt.jpg

 

 

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Post #1---

There are a number of new trimaran foilers announced using a variety of foil systems:

 

1) Cirrus: uses slightly Uptip ama foils + rudder t foils, http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=179995

-

2) TF-10: uses very deep surface piercing foils similar in design to A Class Z foils and Nacra 17 foils, http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=180395

-

3) Super Foiler: uses Uptip ama foils with rudder T-foils, http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/new-trimaran-foilers-55834.html

-

4) Exocet: uses Uptip ama foils with rudder T foils. Way behind schedule but probably still under development.

-

5) Banque Populaire and Spindrift: will use Uptip ama foils with rudder T-foils ready between now and 2019,

-

6) Maserati(converted MOD 70): uses 3 point foil system(similar to Fire Arrow, see below) with adjustable AOI main foil and ama "L" foils inserted at an angle so that when immersed they automatically control ama altitude by working like an Uptip foil includes dual rudder T-foil on each ama. Tmeporaily configured to only fly on starboard tack due to damage to the stb ama foil.

-

7) Fire Arrow (WOLF-full size version under development- 15.5'LOA X 18' Beam) : unique 3 point foil system with wand controlled, retractable main foil and retractable Uptip ama foil. System is specifically designed to allow an oversquare platform to fly in light air with takeoff in 5 knot wind. The basic foil system has been tested on the Fire Arrow Test Model and on the 70' Maserati.

Design, Build and Development thread for the Fire Arrow Test Model and the full size WOLF-daughter of fire arrow:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-test-model-36058-167.html

-

8) F101- bi-foiler foil arrangement-- http://www.boatdesign.net/forum s/multihulls/new-trimaran-foilers-55834.html

 

 

 

Plus see posts 9, 12, 15, 17, 19, 21, 22, 25, for more trimaran foiler development--one of the most exciting and wide open areas of foiler design and innovation! Exciting times is an understatement......

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I hope you are rich and pretty Doug because you sure are not very bright.

 

Do you ever do anything other than endlessly cut and paste your same drivel that everyone has rejected over and over again?

 

Oh, look, your stupidity is back at the top of the page again!

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Apparently they had an unexpected touchdown from over 30 knots to zero. Can't tell if there was any damage or not.

Note that this foiler uses UptiP foils forward for automatic altitude control and speed(one at a time)....

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Apparently they had an unexpected touchdown from over 30 knots to zero. Can't tell if there was any damage or not.

Note that this foiler uses UptiP foils forward for automatic altitude control and speed(one at a time)....

The cleat for the board hold down rope wasn't up to the task as the loads were higher than expected. Word is they well and truly scared themselves as they were totally out of control. One crew went round the front, another hit the board and recovery took a long time. It will be interesting to see how they go, locked in to old foil technology, a big boat with a heavy rig. These boats are going to swim a lot and I cannot see how you self recover with a 50kg mast of that length. It would be good to see some experienced foilers on it, because sailing it with inexperienced foilers seems an "interesting" strategy for what is probably the wildest foiler ever built.

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Apparently they had an unexpected touchdown from over 30 knots to zero. Can't tell if there was any damage or not.

Note that this foiler uses UptiP foils forward for automatic altitude control and speed(one at a time)....

The cleat for the board hold down rope wasn't up to the task as the loads were higher than expected. Word is they well and truly scared themselves as they were totally out of control. One crew went round the front, another hit the board and recovery took a long time. It will be interesting to see how they go, locked in to old foil technology, a big boat with a heavy rig. These boats are going to swim a lot and I cannot see how you self recover with a 50kg mast of that length. It would be good to see some experienced foilers on it, because sailing it with inexperienced foilers seems an "interesting" strategy for what is probably the wildest foiler ever built.

 

 

Such bullshit! Uptip foils are fast-faster than other types at least downwind according to M&M:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x44cb22wlw5zfvb/Meeting%20Presentation.pdf?dl=0 page 26

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Apparently they had an unexpected touchdown from over 30 knots to zero. Can't tell if there was any damage or not.

Note that this foiler uses UptiP foils forward for automatic altitude control and speed(one at a time)....

The cleat for the board hold down rope wasn't up to the task as the loads were higher than expected. Word is they well and truly scared themselves as they were totally out of control. One crew went round the front, another hit the board and recovery took a long time. It will be interesting to see how they go, locked in to old foil technology, a big boat with a heavy rig. These boats are going to swim a lot and I cannot see how you self recover with a 50kg mast of that length. It would be good to see some experienced foilers on it, because sailing it with inexperienced foilers seems an "interesting" strategy for what is probably the wildest foiler ever built.

 

 

Such bullshit! Uptip foils are fast-faster than other types at least downwind according to M&M:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x44cb22wlw5zfvb/Meeting%20Presentation.pdf?dl=0 page 26

 

Still quoting out of context, because you cannot and do not want to understand what is going on in development. M&M were comparing uptip foils with the Z foils in relation to development for the N17. Those Z foils are deliberately highly compromised, favouring ease of use over speed. It would be very easy to make Z foils for the N17 that were a lot quicker, but the decision was made to go in a different direction. This is why your mate Dario has given up on A Class uptip foils, because Z foils are significantly faster and you don't need to raise and lower the boards when you tack/gybe.

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Boy, you'll say anything when proven wrong. IF Dario has given up on UptiP foils for the A Class it's because of the damn rule which prohibits them!!!! You repeat nonsense about M&M and UptiP foils to try to prove that UptiPs are no good but you can't ever show any facts. Here's some facts for you: when M&M wanted the fastest possible foil for their Super Foiler design what did they choose? UptiP foils! There's no question that on some boats "Z" foils are easier to use because they don't have to be raised /lowered every tack /gybe. BUT that is a compromise. When M&M wanted a no-compromise speed foil design for their ultimate trimaran they picked UptiP foils-just a FACT.

And the Fire Arrow has shown that UptiP foils can be used on a trimaran without having to fool with them at all-no raising and lowering every tack or gybe at all. Further, on a sport tri the same length, the UptiP foils have much less draft than do the "Z" foils used on the TH 10-a big deal in many parts of the world.

The UptiP foils on the fullsize WOLF draw much less water that do A Class foils in their nominal smooth water configuration AND in that configuration can be left in place (NOT RETRACTED) when the boat is pulled up on a beach!

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Boy, you'll say anything when proven wrong. IF Dario has given up on UptiP foils for the A Class it's because of the damn rule which prohibits them!!!! You repeat nonsense about M&M and UptiP foils to try to prove that UptiPs are no good but you can't ever show any facts. Here's some facts for you: when M&M wanted the fastest possible foil for their Super Foiler design what did they choose? UptiP foils! There's no question that on some boats "Z" foils are easier to use because they don't have to be raised /lowered every tack /gybe. BUT that is a compromise. When M&M wanted a no-compromise speed foil design for their ultimate trimaran they picked UptiP foils-just a FACT.

It is also a fact that the design of the Superfoiler is actually rather old. The project started 3 years ago. At that time, everything was uptip except for the earliest A Class Z foils. We have come a long way since then, even if you have stayed in the past. There is lots of proof that the A's are faster with the Z foils than with the V foils various people have made, including Dario. This is why everybody has abandoned the idea of changing the rules. We have ended up with faster and better boats. If that wasn't so, people would be still trying to change the rules. I am sorry you don't know what is going on, but that is the price you pay for the way you behave.

 

And the Fire Arrow has shown that UptiP foils can be used on a trimaran without having to fool with them at all-no raising and lowering every tack or gybe at all. Further, on a sport tri the same length, the UptiP foils have much less draft than do the "Z" foils used on the TH 10-a big deal in many parts of the world.

 

Are you serious? Your toy has proven nothing. If you think the Superfoiler is going to leave the windward board down, you really are ignorant. As for draft comments, if the Superfoiler had Z foils, it would have solved a lot of issues. Z foils would have no draft at all as they would be removed. There would be no need to fit the boards on the beach as part of the rigging process and it would make the boat a lot easier to handle during launching.

The UptiP foils on the fullsize WOLF draw much less water that do A Class foils in their nominal smooth water configuration AND in that configuration can be left in place (NOT RETRACTED) when the boat is pulled up on a beach!

 

Again, i wonder if you have lost touch with reality. You cannot use as evidence an idea that you haven't tested or even drawn. The Wolf does not exist in anything other than your mind. Even then, how can it draw less water than an A with its foils out, which is how we approach the beach.

 

You need to get used to the idea that foiling moves on at a great rate. If you spent more time trying to understand what is going on rather than arguing for your pet theories while ignoring all other new developments, you might actually learn something.

And the Fire Arrow has shown that UptiP foils can be used on a trimaran without having to fool with them at all-no raising and lowering every tack or gybe at all. Further, on a sport tri the same length, the UptiP foils have much less draft than do the "Z" foils used on the TH 10-a big deal in many parts of the world.

The UptiP foils on the fullsize WOLF draw much less water that do A Class foils in their nominal smooth water configuration AND in that configuration can be left in place (NOT RETRACTED) when the boat is pulled up on a beach!

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Are you serious? Your toy has proven nothing. If you think the Superfoiler is going to leave the windward board downI never said anything like that-you have extremely poor reading comprehension!!!, you really are ignorant. As for draft comments, if the Superfoiler had Z foils, it would have solved a lot of issues. Z foils would have no draft at all as they would be removed. There would be no need to fit the boards on the beach as part of the rigging process and it would make the boat a lot easier to handle during launching.

You apparently don't know what the word "draft" means!

 

 

The UptiP foils on the fullsize WOLF draw much less water that do A Class foils in their nominal smooth water configuration AND in that configuration can be left in place (NOT RETRACTED) when the boat is pulled up on a beach!

 

The Wolf does not exist in anything other than your mind. Even then, how can it draw less water than an A with its foils out, which is how we approach the beach. You really don't know, do you?!

 

 

And the Fire Arrow has shown that UptiP foils can be used on a trimaran without having to fool with them at all-no raising and lowering every tack or gybe at all. Further, on a sport tri the same length, the UptiP foils have much less draft than do the "Z" foils used on the TH 10-a big deal in many parts of the world.

The UptiP foils on the fullsize WOLF draw much less water that do A Class foils in their nominal smooth water configuration AND in that configuration can be left in place (NOT RETRACTED) when the boat is pulled up on a beach!

 

 

 

Let me make this real clear so you might understand it: no other trimaran or catamaran in the world has UptiP foils that work like the ones on Fire Arrow/WOLF which require ZERO adjustment in normal flying and do not have to be moved at all with every tack or gybe. Again, this is the only UptiP foiling system anywhere on any boat that does not require the UptiP foils to be moved with every tack or gybe. REPEAT: the only system of its kind anywhere!!!!

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Are you serious? Your toy has proven nothing. If you think the Superfoiler is going to leave the windward board downI never said anything like that-you have extremely poor reading comprehension!!!, you really are ignorant. As for draft comments, if the Superfoiler had Z foils, it would have solved a lot of issues. Z foils would have no draft at all as they would be removed. There would be no need to fit the boards on the beach as part of the rigging process and it would make the boat a lot easier to handle during launching.

You apparently don't know what the word "draft" means!

 

The UptiP foils on the fullsize WOLF draw much less water that do A Class foils in their nominal smooth water configuration AND in that configuration can be left in place (NOT RETRACTED) when the boat is pulled up on a beach!

 

The Wolf does not exist in anything other than your mind. Even then, how can it draw less water than an A with its foils out, which is how we approach the beach. You really don't know, do you?!

 

 

And the Fire Arrow has shown that UptiP foils can be used on a trimaran without having to fool with them at all-no raising and lowering every tack or gybe at all. Further, on a sport tri the same length, the UptiP foils have much less draft than do the "Z" foils used on the TH 10-a big deal in many parts of the world.

The UptiP foils on the fullsize WOLF draw much less water that do A Class foils in their nominal smooth water configuration AND in that configuration can be left in place (NOT RETRACTED) when the boat is pulled up on a beach!

 

Let me make this real clear so you might understand it: no other trimaran or catamaran in the world has UptiP foils that work like the ones on Fire Arrow/WOLF which require ZERO adjustment in normal flying and do not have to be moved at all with every tack or gybe. Again, this is the only UptiP foiling system anywhere on any boat that does not require the UptiP foils to be moved with every tack or gybe. REPEAT: the only system of its kind anywhere!!!!

Meh

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You have a problem.......

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Boy, you'll say anything when proven wrong. IF Dario has given up on UptiP foils for the A Class it's because of the damn rule which prohibits them!!!! You repeat nonsense about M&M and UptiP foils to try to prove that UptiPs are no good but you can't ever show any facts. Here's some facts for you: when M&M wanted the fastest possible foil for their Super Foiler design what did they choose? UptiP foils! There's no question that on some boats "Z" foils are easier to use because they don't have to be raised /lowered every tack /gybe. BUT that is a compromise. When M&M wanted a no-compromise speed foil design for their ultimate trimaran they picked UptiP foils-just a FACT.

And the Fire Arrow has shown that UptiP foils can be used on a trimaran without having to fool with them at all-no raising and lowering every tack or gybe at all. Further, on a sport tri the same length, the UptiP foils have much less draft than do the "Z" foils used on the TH 10-a big deal in many parts of the world.

The UptiP foils on the fullsize WOLF draw much less water that do A Class foils in their nominal smooth water configuration AND in that configuration can be left in place (NOT RETRACTED) when the boat is pulled up on a beach!

 

There is no WOLF.

 

The only thing you have shown is that you are delusional.

 

Come on puppet. Time for you to cut and paste your reheated stale hash.

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TH10 render showing new seats and half-wishbone-- sent by e-mail with Project Update in previous post today-no other credit given:

 

161jghs.jpg

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Superfoiler is very interesting. Well. I would say that because in many ways it is similar to my own wacko boats.

But reading about the accident and the fear it apparently has induced in the crew, I'm wondering if all three crew on trapeze and way the hell out to windward on an already very wide platform is the way forward (no pun meant).

Because this is a foiler producing high lift to leeward - so the crew don't need to be hell and gone to windward. In fact, imo, they should be crouched on tramp behind a fairing. Less drag and way safer and probably a lot faster.

Arty types can draw computer imagery suggesting trapeze crew as one aero-dynamic block - but real world, not so. Crew are huge drag. Especially at the hyped 40plus knots.

By the way, New Zealand's AC boat is going to win because of way better winch/pedal crew/hull less drag profile. You heard it here first.

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Superfoiler is very interesting. Well. I would say that because in many ways it is similar to my own wacko boats.

But reading about the accident and the fear it apparently has induced in the crew, I'm wondering if all three crew on trapeze and way the hell out to windward on an already very wide platform is the way forward (no pun meant).

Because this is a foiler producing high lift to leeward - so the crew don't need to be hell and gone to windward. In fact, imo, they should be crouched on tramp behind a fairing. Less drag and way safer and probably a lot faster.

Arty types can draw computer imagery suggesting trapeze crew as one aero-dynamic block - but real world, not so. Crew are huge drag. Especially at the hyped 40plus knots.

By the way, New Zealand's AC boat is going to win because of way better winch/pedal crew/hull less drag profile. You heard it here first.

I have to disagree. The righting moment gains from being on the trapeze far outweighs any aero losses. Even with the width they have, moving 25-275kgs over a metre to windward is no small difference (I make it around 15% extra righting moment). The boat will also be a lot easier to sail from the trapeze than crouched on a tramp. I cannot imagine how you would play the sheets crouched on a tramp. You need the leverage of being on your feet to move enough sheet fast enough. It might have a tri configuration, but it is basically a foiling skiff style boat, super lightweight and sailed like a dinghy or beach cat.

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Superfoiler is very interesting. Well. I would say that because in many ways it is similar to my own wacko boats.

But reading about the accident and the fear it apparently has induced in the crew, I'm wondering if all three crew on trapeze and way the hell out to windward on an already very wide platform is the way forward (no pun meant).

Because this is a foiler producing high lift to leeward - so the crew don't need to be hell and gone to windward. In fact, imo, they should be crouched on tramp behind a fairing. Less drag and way safer and probably a lot faster.

Arty types can draw computer imagery suggesting trapeze crew as one aero-dynamic block - but real world, not so. Crew are huge drag. Especially at the hyped 40plus knots.

By the way, New Zealand's AC boat is going to win because of way better winch/pedal crew/hull less drag profile. You heard it here first.

I have to disagree. The righting moment gains from being on the trapeze far outweighs any aero losses. Even with the width they have, moving 25-275kgs over a metre to windward is no small difference (I make it around 15% extra righting moment). The boat will also be a lot easier to sail from the trapeze than crouched on a tramp. I cannot imagine how you would play the sheets crouched on a tramp. You need the leverage of being on your feet to move enough sheet fast enough. It might have a tri configuration, but it is basically a foiling skiff style boat, super lightweight and sailed like a dinghy or beach cat.

 

Wrong- it's sailed like a foiler........

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Superfoiler is very interesting. Well. I would say that because in many ways it is similar to my own wacko boats.

But reading about the accident and the fear it apparently has induced in the crew, I'm wondering if all three crew on trapeze and way the hell out to windward on an already very wide platform is the way forward (no pun meant).

Because this is a foiler producing high lift to leeward - so the crew don't need to be hell and gone to windward. In fact, imo, they should be crouched on tramp behind a fairing. Less drag and way safer and probably a lot faster.

Arty types can draw computer imagery suggesting trapeze crew as one aero-dynamic block - but real world, not so. Crew are huge drag. Especially at the hyped 40plus knots.

By the way, New Zealand's AC boat is going to win because of way better winch/pedal crew/hull less drag profile. You heard it here first.

I have to disagree. The righting moment gains from being on the trapeze far outweighs any aero losses. Even with the width they have, moving 25-275kgs over a metre to windward is no small difference (I make it around 15% extra righting moment). The boat will also be a lot easier to sail from the trapeze than crouched on a tramp. I cannot imagine how you would play the sheets crouched on a tramp. You need the leverage of being on your feet to move enough sheet fast enough. It might have a tri configuration, but it is basically a foiling skiff style boat, super lightweight and sailed like a dinghy or beach cat.

 

Wrong- it's sailed like a foiler........

 

Stop being an arsehole. Did I really need to add the word "foiler' after dinghy or beach cat when it is blindingly obvious to anybody that is what was being talked about? The point you seem unable to grasp is that the key to sailing this foiler is being able to move and sail the boat very dynamically, from shifting weight both fore and aft as well as in and out, plus being able to constantly play the sheets. The boat is being developed by a group of 18' skiff sailors, using systems proven in skiffs. It is designed to be sailed in the same manner as an 18, and yes, it goes without saying but just for you, I will say it anyway, with the technique modified for the fact that the boat foils. The main point is that it would be hard to impossible to sail a boat like this from a position crouched on the tramp.

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You have a problem.......

That's pretty damn rich coming from the OCD Foil Fool

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Video of Super Foiler's first flight: https://www.facebook.com/SuperFoiler/

FUUK me! They have some serious issues. Looks very much like the boat is so light and the rig is so powerful that steering, crew weight and sheeting will override the heave control from the foils. No wonder the scared the sh#t out of themselves. The way that boat is behaving, it looks to me to be the most dangerous foiler I have seen. They have already hurt one guy and they weren't even sailing properly. It will be interesting to see if anybody can tame the beat. I wouldn't bet on it......

 

No, Doug, I am not saying it is unsailable. I just wouldn't bet money on it being mastered in its current format.

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Video of Super Foiler's first flight: https://www.facebook.com/SuperFoiler/

FUUK me! They have some serious issues. Looks very much like the boat is so light and the rig is so powerful that steering, crew weight and sheeting will override the heave control from the foils. No wonder the scared the sh#t out of themselves. The way that boat is behaving, it looks to me to be the most dangerous foiler I have seen. They have already hurt one guy and they weren't even sailing properly. It will be interesting to see if anybody can tame the beat. I wouldn't bet on it......

 

No, Doug, I am not saying it is unsailable. I just wouldn't bet money on it being mastered in its current format.

 

 

Thats an interesting "analysis" for the very short,very first flight of a foiler designed by one of the best foiler designers in the world. You must be really smart.

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Let me get this right.... you criticize A Class for making a call based on a "very short, very first flight of a foiler"... yet, with a thousandth of the foiling time so demonstrated by Super Foiler, you have made the same claim regime about your toy boat and have proceeded to vomit that claim across the Internet as if the claim could be made whole by simple, putrid bombast.

 

Have you no shame, Douglas?

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Ah but that's allowed, after all he is one of the best model foiler designers in the world and he is really smart :)

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Video of Super Foiler's first flight: https://www.facebook.com/SuperFoiler/

FUUK me! They have some serious issues. Looks very much like the boat is so light and the rig is so powerful that steering, crew weight and sheeting will override the heave control from the foils. No wonder the scared the sh#t out of themselves. The way that boat is behaving, it looks to me to be the most dangerous foiler I have seen. They have already hurt one guy and they weren't even sailing properly. It will be interesting to see if anybody can tame the beat. I wouldn't bet on it......

 

No, Doug, I am not saying it is unsailable. I just wouldn't bet money on it being mastered in its current format.

 

 

Thats an interesting "analysis" for the very short,very first flight of a foiler designed by one of the best foiler designers in the world. You must be really smart.

 

Let me give you some real analysis, although I suspect you won't agree with any of it.

 

Consider the danger to start with. The really fast foilers such as the AC boats and the GC32 have one important feature that makes them a lot safer. they both have weight on their side, so when they stuff the bow in, or something similar, they do not come to a halt. With lightweight foilers like the Moth, A and now the Superfoiler, they go from high speed to zero really quickly. Jack actually says they went from 34 knots to zero. When that happens, the crew gets thrown forward, at speed, as was also reported. One of the crew hit the raised windward board, luckily not doing any serious injury. In the A's, there have been some significant injuries when going from about 25 knots + to zero. At the Australian Nationals, one good sailor suffered whiplash, concussion and other injuries that finished his regatta and he was wearing a helmet. The Superfoiler is going 10 knots quicker and stops just as abruptly. They are saying their target is 40 knots. Anybody who says that is safe is pretty clueless. I cannot think of any other racing boat that has so much potential to seriously hurt its sailors.

 

Looking at the video itself, there is a moment that leaves any foiling sailor with their heart in their mouth. It is really familiar and I think it is very significant that is where the video stops. The boat accelerates and climbs rapidly up, at a pace that can only lead to one thing, the foils coming out. When the boat starts to rise up like that, no foil system is fast enough to correct it and that feeling is familiar to Moth, A Class and any other foiling sailor. If you are fast enough, which is almost impossible, you need to move forward fast and sheet the main on hard. seeing the boat behave like that, I cannot believe that it is a one off and that it won't do it again, and again. It tells me that like all lightweight foiling boats, the Superfoiler is going to rely on the crew to control ride height and heave stability. In this case, that is going to present a serious challenge. It will be interesting to see if anybody can tame this beast in its current configuratiion.

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Comments from the Superfoiler Team:

 

We'd like to thank you all for your support of this ambitious project. We are all extremely proud to be able to share this piece with you.

This machine is designed to reach speeds of more than 40 knots. She achieved 34 knots in 12 - 17 knots of breeze on our first day of testing. She achieved everything we had hoped and more and is certainly not for the faint-hearted.

first vid: https://www.facebook.com/SuperFoiler/

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I'd love to know what Dougie actually does for a living. It blows my mind that someone actually employs him.

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Foiler tri Test Models:

 

#1

5.5' Model of a 15.5 ' Foiling Sport Tri:

 

 

When I first realized what TNZ had done in 34, I was elated because-finally-there appeared to be a foil that could be used on a trimaran ama which would automatically control its own altitude with no moving parts*.

* surface piercing and "V" foils can work similarly, with their own advantages, but not with all the advantages of an Uptip foil, in my opinion.

For trimaran design that's a big deal. But there remained a problem: all the trimarans using Uptip foils(see the list in the first post) might be burdened with the same problem the cats had- they would have to raise the windward board after a tack or gybe. And so they are-including Maserati,the new Spindrift, the new Banque Populaire, the new SuperFoiler from Morrelli and Melvin, the new Cirrus, the M24 Test Boat from Macif, the Ultime Macif and the 19' Exocet.

All the foiling tri's using Uptip foils except two-the Fire Arrow and the fullsize Wolf design(under development) using the Fire Arrow Foil System. These two boats use an Uptip foil on each ama that never needs to be retracted during a tack or gybe. This is a major reduction in crew workload while still allowing the major benefits of an Uptip foil which include automatic altitude control and shallow draft(when compared to a foiler using a "Z" foil). This works because the boats are designed to sail at a 10 degree angle of heel-a compromise that is well worth it on a "sport boat" designed primarily for fun flying. Of course, a turboed version of WOLF would use a canting mast to eliminate the downside of the 10 degree angle of heel.

 

 

 

Picture by Doug Lord and Dan Burke:

 

2qlww1f.jpg

 

 

#2

24' Model of a 100' Foiling Ocean Racing Tri:

 

-----

M24-first found by zzarganas in Diam 24 thread.

http://forums.sailin...69#entry5667941

----------------------------------

UPDATE- as of 3/25/17-- no further information on whether or not there is a foil on the daggerboard.......

Striking new 24' foiler from Macif/Francis Gabart :

This boat is being used as an experimental test boat close to scale of the full size Macif to test foils and foil combinations. In the picture below you can see two different ama foils both of which work like uptip foils with intrinsic altitude control. Both amas have rudder T foils.

NOTE: One of the French guys on facebook claims that the daggerboard has a "horizontal plane, trim everything". Just spectacular if true!
PICTURE by Alexis Courcoux:
wko7rt.jpg

 

 

 

 

Confirmed this date by Martin of catsailingnews.com that there is no daggerboard foil on the 24' test boat ............

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Superfoiler test (found by zzarganas). Looks like they could use more beam and a center foil?

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Shit you're right!! Morelli and melvin just fucked up again! After months of study they got the beam wrong and forgot a foil

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It's very interesting to me to note that UptiP foils are currently being used as ama foils on most high performance trimarans, including all the Ultim's. Part of the reason is automatic altitude control and part of the reason is their speed potential.(see link below)

On the Fire Arrow / WOLF design these foils can be used without the requirement to deploy/retract the foils with every tack or gybe-they can be left down in their normal position.(see post 72 above)

 

See p26 here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/x44cb22wlw5zfvb/Meeting%20Presentation.pdf?dl=0

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Currently Maserati and Fire Arrow/WOLF have the most innovative foil systems on any tri because they use a foil on the daggerboard-adjustable AOI on both boats-actively controlled on Fire Arrow ,manual(hydraulic) on Maserati. But there is a high likelihood that at least one of the new Ultims will have a similar foil.....

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Startup of Super Foiler-published 4/25/17:

 

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Superfoiler May 2nd:

 

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These guys are sailing the boat like a Moth, that it's a trimaran is pretty irrelevant. The more windward heel, the more vertical the leeward foil so more lift to windward and more vertical lift from the tip. Heave stability seems to be an issue though.

I don't think this would work with a Z foil where it would increase lift to windward but lose vertical lift.

Seems to be bow-up in most videos, level or slightly bow down might be faster but I guess it's early days.

Source: youtu.be/yMe5TGGEOdA?t=18s

 

Sydney Harbour Testing of the SuperFoiler 0.19.jpg

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Based on the many tests I've done with Fire Arrow using two completely different altitude control systems-UptiP ama foils(one at a time)+wand controlled main foil on an oversquare platform--- if I had to make any comment on the Superfoiler I'd say that it might be better off with more beam.

But they seem to be getting better so maybe they just need time.....

MPX_Fire_Arrow-First_Full_Flying_Foiling_on_video-7-24-14_011.JPG

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Please explain why more beam would help.

IMO, they don't yet understand what they are really trying to achieve.This view is supported when one of them says it is like learning to sail all over again. This seems to be what everybody says about high performance foiling cats. Maybe if they had somebody with real experience on the boat they would make a lot more progress.

They complain that every time they get it up and running, the boat comes over on top of them and the windward ama touches down. I watch the videos and think of course that is what is happening because that is what would happen with an A sailed the same way. They simply aren't moving the sheets. To get a boat like that foiling, you need a pretty open leach and to ease the sail. As soon as you get up on the foils, if you don't pull in a lot of sheet, you lose all drive from the top of the sail and the boat rolls on top of you. Their mainsail set up is like an A and I would expect them to be moving 2 metres or more of mainsheet as they get up on foils and accelerate. I believe that the rig and how it is used has the biggest impact on foiling performance.

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The effect of the rudder foils in damping roll would be greater with more beam. It's also possible that a version of the Fire Arrow Foil System main foil-- except smaller,shorter,with no wand but using manual AOI control-- could help them get started then, as they fly better, that foil would rise above the water eliminating all its drag except drag due to weight.

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Possibly some more area on the rudder foils as well which would help it to not drag it's ass getting started as well as improving roll damping......

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

They complain that every time they get it up and running, the boat comes over on top of them and the windward ama touches down. I watch the videos and think of course that is what is happening because that is what would happen with an A sailed the same way. They simply aren't moving the sheets. To get a boat like that foiling, you need a pretty open leach and to ease the sail. As soon as you get up on the foils, if you don't pull in a lot of sheet, you lose all drive from the top of the sail and the boat rolls on top of you. Their mainsail set up is like an A and I would expect them to be moving 2 metres or more of mainsheet as they get up on foils and accelerate. I believe that the rig and how it is used has the biggest impact on foiling performance.

A big challenge is to coordinate sheeting and steering, and that can only come from practice and knowing exactly what each other are doing. I don't know about the open leech, once foiling it should be closed, it's why Moths run massive vang tension (since multi-style travellers don't seem to work as well). The SuperFoiler has some moments when everything goes right, they just need to bottle that and learn to replicate it.

The mainsheet trimmer and helm should be right next to each other so they feel exactly the same things and learn each other's responses.

I think the windward heel is a good idea, with the dihedral on the wings it will be difficult to sail flat as the foiling cats do. I really hope they get it right, but it's a huge challenge.

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Couple of new raw videos up on YouTube: 

 

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Super Foiler:

 

 

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Super Foiler-updated debrief:

 

 

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Super Foiler:

 

 

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Super Foiler Team debrief-broken daggerboard system:

 

 

 

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New Super Foiler video:

 

 

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Two simple questions Dougie-- 1. Over the last eighteen months how many hours have you spent foiling either full scale or toy boats?  2. Over the same period how many hours have you spent posting about foiling either full scale or toy boats? 

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On 2/18/2017 at 8:07 PM, Doug Lord said:

There are a number of new trimaran foilers announced using a variety of foil systems:

 

1) Cirrus: uses slightly Uptip ama foils + rudder t foils, http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=179995

-

2) TF-10: uses very deep surface piercing foils similar in design to A Class Z foils and Nacra 17 foils, http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=180395

-

3) Super Foiler: uses Uptip ama foils with rudder T-foils, http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/new-trimaran-foilers-55834.html

-

4) Exocet: uses Uptip ama foils with rudder T foils. Way behind schedule but probably still under development.

-

5) Banque Populaire and Spindrift: will use Uptip ama foils with rudder T-foils ready between now and 2019,

-

6) Maserati(converted MOD 70): uses 3 point foil system(similar to Fire Arrow, see below) with adjustable AOI main foil and ama "L" foils inserted at an angle so that when immersed they automatically control ama altitude by working like an Uptip foil includes dual rudder T-foil on each ama. Tmeporaily configured to only fly on starboard tack due to damage to the stb ama foil.

-

7) Fire Arrow (WOLF-full size version under development- 15.5'LOA X 18' Beam) : unique 3 point foil system with wand controlled, retractable main foil and retractable Uptip ama foil. System is specifically designed to allow an oversquare platform to fly in light air with takeoff in 5 knot wind. The basic foil system has been tested on the Fire Arrow Test Model and on the 70' Maserati.

Design, Build and Development thread for the Fire Arrow Test Model and the full size WOLF-daughter of fire arrow:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-test-model-36058-167.html

-

8) F101- bi-foiler foil arrangement-- http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/new-trimaran-foilers-55834.html

post-30-0-85064700-1487466159_thumb.png

post-30-0-94362600-1487466311_thumb.jpg

post-30-0-87697000-1487466399_thumb.png

All the foiling trimarans(not foil assist) under development, as best I can tell, from post # 1 above...

=================================================

WOLF concept model of 15' LOA X 18' Beam(folding) singlehanded foiler tri w/217 sq.ft. upwind SA,367 sq.ft. downwind ,target weight 275lb: 

More: https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-the-test-model.36058/page-171

WOLF concept model FINAL AMA height 003.JPG

WOLF concept model  6-1-17 001.JPG

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Foiler Trimaran Takeoff Wind Speed--designer, manufacturer/ website, published info:

I want to gradually collect as much of this sort of info as possible:(For reference the Quant 23 foiling keelboat takes off in 5 knots of wind according to the designer and manufacturer. The Whisper cat takes off in 5 knots wind speed according to the manufacturer website.)

F101-8 knots wind speed takeoff-website

WOLF-target 5 knots wind speed takeoff-designer

 

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New Superfoiler Video:  

Note the stepped planing ama hulls----

 

 

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Stepped planing amas: check out the new Superfoiler video above showing some good shots of the ama design similar in concept to the Hydroptere amas and to the concept of the Fire Arrow/WOLF planing amas.     
The Fire Arrow/WOLF amas are not stepped planing hulls like Hydropteres amas or the new Superfoiler amas because , in essence, the ama hull ends at the back end of the planing surface. But all three are designed for incidental contact with the water at speed and ,as well, the Fire Arrow/WOLF amas are designed to be relatively low drag during wave interaction and during incidental low speed immersion(double ended ama hull).
Also, the Fire Arrow/WOLF planing amas are supported by high dihedral crossarms with a curved ama "second stage" that keeps the crossarms well clear of the water even in a knockdown.
pictures by DL:

MPX-Two Stage Ama.JPG

MPX-ama foil.jpg

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