ScotDomergue

boat suggestion? light, small, blue water potential

Recommended Posts

On 2017-04-03 at 6:22 PM, ScotDomergue said:

Thanks for all recent posts. I'm back home after weeks of travel.

 

I'm leaning toward either Cal 20 or Santana 20. I've never been aboard either, so don't have a good feel for the space, let alone how they sail. One of each is currently for sale reasonably near where I live, and I expect to look at both within a week.

 

I like the lighter weight of the Santana. With a lower phrf, one might assume it would be faster. I imagine it would row a bit faster.

 

I assume the Cal is bigger inside.

 

Anything more anyone would like to add about these two boats and their performance would be of great interest.

 

I've found a LOT more to read about things to watch out for and about preparing a Cal 20 for offshore than I have for the Santana 20 (essentially nothing). Anything more anyone might add on these subjects would be great.

 

I've been reading Webb Chiles logs and find them very interesting. I've ordered Black Feathers.

 

Thanks again.

Beneteau 235 would be a great little boat and comfortable 

owned one before my Figaro 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just want to add my voice to one part of the conversation. I have been on both the Cal 20 and Santana 20. And sailed against both. While I think the Cal 20 is a bit small, it is better suited to the job than the Santana. The Santana has the wrong shape to be a rough weather boat, IMO, and the opinion of many others. It has been well researched. Sea Worthiness The forgotten Factor, comes to mind, as well as the RORC hearings. Plus PHRF enquiries into boat sinkings.

Unkle Krusty

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Peanut Butter said:

Misery-ship more like it...

Not one to judge other people’s choices, but this sounds a bit  like those people seeking the unicorn that delivers 3 mutually exclusive things. 

In cycling it was the $500 sub-18 pound, Dura-ace equipped bike.

In advertising it was the award-winning campaign delivered yesterday for 1/4 of the going rate.

Of your 3 attributes, pick 2. 

Lots of small boats built for the North Sea available cheap as chips but they’re not light. Folkboat and Contessa 26 come to mind. 

Unless there’s a specific reason you need “light”, here’s the the journey I see you on:

- get idea in head of goal, 

- formulate some Rube Goldberg/Holy Grail scenario in belief that there can be only one path to success,

- invest time and effort in search of said Grail, only to not find specific fit,

- eventually lose interest in said Quest and move on to some other dubious goal, framed around similar unrealistic requirements.

Good luck. 

Hmmmmm... why are you quoting me?

This is not my idea.

7 hours ago, Peanut Butter said:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BarfBag said:

Hmmmmm... why are you quoting me?

This is not my idea.

 

I was building on your sentiment (hence the misery-ship/hard-ship tie-in) about the dubious nature of the endeavour, not responding to you directly.

Cheerio.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Peanut Butter said:

I was building on your sentiment (hence the misery-ship/hard-ship tie-in) about the dubious nature of the endeavour, not responding to you directly.

Cheerio.  

Ahhh, I get it.

Thanks for clarifying.

I wonder what's happened to the OP, maybe he's off sailing the great blue sea...

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, BarfBag said:

Ahhh, I get it.

Thanks for clarifying.

I wonder what's happened to the OP, maybe he's off sailing the great blue sea...

Cheers

rarely.

most are just looking for more stuff to dream about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Update for those who didn't read a series of posts starting Dec. 17, 2017:

Last July I bought an old San Juan 21 and cruised in Puget Sound and the San Juan Islands for over 3 months.  This was an experiment to see how I would like it.  In many ways I liked the boat and enjoyed my time aboard AND I realized that it was more boat than I want - too big and heavy, relatively slow rowing and not particularly fun to row.  I came to realize that rowing is more important to me than I had realized, for a variety of reasons.  I'd also like a boat small enough to move to above high tide line by hand (as I did with my Marsh Duck).   I've sold the SJ21 and have been playing with designs, leaning toward 16 feet long with beam between 36 and 66 inches.  I think that 36 to 42 inch beam would be best for towing behind my bicycle and a little better for rowing; wider could be better for more extended cruising.  I can imagine crossing oceans in 42" or wider, though that has never been a primary intention. I would like to have ocean crossing capability in a boat I would use for extended coastal/island cruising, AND I might want to take it blue water cruising sometime.

My left hip, replaced just over a year ago, is mostly recovered, but not completely.  I need to walk more and may focus on hiking and backpacking this summer rather than boats.

I doubt that I will ever want another boat of the sort most discussed in this thread (bigger and heavier than I want).  I can easily see myself creating the smaller, lighter boat I've been designing, and cruising on her extensively.  We'll see.

Scot (op)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ScotDomergue said:

I've ... been playing with designs, leaning toward 16 feet long with beam between 36 and 66 inches.  I think that 36 to 42 inch beam would be best for towing behind my bicycle and a little better for rowing.

It might have saved a lot of time if you had been clearer about these priorities.

This could be what you want. Few people have more personal experience of the sort of boating you like than Colin Angus.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/22/2017 at 3:35 PM, ScotDomergue said:

Re mini transat: at over 2000 lbs, doesn't really appeal.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think your bicycle towable boat is not sensible for crossing oceans, unless your only point is to demonstrate to the world how much you truly hate yourself.

For adventuring and fitness, which seems to be what you are really attracted to right now, your bicycle towable idea seems like a LOT of fun, something I would like to have too!

Exploring oceans and exploring coast, rivers, lakes are both wonderful adventures. But the boat that works for one is not anything whatsoever like the boat that works for the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I started this thread I was hoping to find an older production boat that would satisfy my desires:  "I'd like to find a small, production, light weight boat with single handed blue water potential. Perhaps something like a smaller Moore 24. Perhaps 20 feet long and 1000 lbs., though even smaller might be OK. Ideas and suggestions will be greatly appreciated!"

I found the discussion helpful.  Others seem to have found the thread interesting and worthwhile.  I believe that there are some older production boats that can satisfy most of the stated criteria.  The Cal 20 is probably one of the best, though at 1900 lbs, it's significantly over my target weight.

The Angus Row Cruiser is an excellent boat.  It has been suggested before.  I know and like Colin.  He would NOT suggest it as a blue water cruiser!  Nor is it available as a production boat.

Unstated, but assumed in my original post, was that a production boat would be fiberglass, not wood - avoiding some of the problems inherent in wooden boat use and maintenance.  Also I wasn't eager to design and build another boat at that point.

My decision to buy and experiment with the SJ21 grew out of the exploration that included this thread.  As noted above, my criteria changed slightly as a result of that experiment.

I have concluded that there are no production boats that would suit me.  Even with all the ideas suggested in this thread and boat designs available, I have seen none that I consider suitable and have therefore gone back to my own drawing board.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ScotDomergue said:

When I started this thread I was hoping to find an older production boat that would satisfy my desires:  "I'd like to find a small, production, light weight boat with single handed blue water potential. Perhaps something like a smaller Moore 24. Perhaps 20 feet long and 1000 lbs., though even smaller might be OK. Ideas and suggestions will be greatly appreciated!"

I found the discussion helpful.  Others seem to have found the thread interesting and worthwhile.  I believe that there are some older production boats that can satisfy most of the stated criteria.  The Cal 20 is probably one of the best, though at 1900 lbs, it's significantly over my target weight.

The Angus Row Cruiser is an excellent boat.  It has been suggested before.  I know and like Colin.  He would NOT suggest it as a blue water cruiser!  Nor is it available as a production boat.

Unstated, but assumed in my original post, was that a production boat would be fiberglass, not wood - avoiding some of the problems inherent in wooden boat use and maintenance.  Also I wasn't eager to design and build another boat at that point.

My decision to buy and experiment with the SJ21 grew out of the exploration that included this thread.  As noted above, my criteria changed slightly as a result of that experiment.

I have concluded that there are no production boats that would suit me.  Even with all the ideas suggested in this thread and boat designs available, I have seen none that I consider suitable and have therefore gone back to my own drawing board.

Everyone keeps suggesting boats that are far bigger & heavier than what you want (or at least, from what I think you want judging on your posts).

It's really a very specialist kind of craft, not anything on the market for what you want.

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kmcfast said:

Montgomery 17

A Jerry Montgomery M17 starts at 1800# before stuff.  The current builder's boats start at 2000#+.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just picked up the latest Small Craft Advisor (#110), with an article about seaworthy small boats.  (I haven't read it yet.)  Spend the 8 bucks so they can keep doing their thing.

Many of us grew up racing Santana 20s.  I would not take one out of sight of land.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Scoob said:

A Jerry Montgomery M17 starts at 1800# before stuff.  The current builder's boats start at 2000#+.

Brochure says 1400#

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, kmcfast said:

Brochure says 1400#

nope ... link here to one of the first flyers Jerry printed -

http://msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Information/downloaddocument.php?id=16

 

this flyer was based on 'best case' thinking based on he & Lyle's notes for 'boat parts, resin and fiberglass needed to build'.  All Jerry built a bunch and had a baseline (FYI, Jerry and I are close friends).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scott

Anything which is as light as you would like isn’t going to be fit for crossing an ocean.... even the gear and consumables needed to do it would blow your weight limit.

There is one very recent boat which might suit your amended requirements:

http://rowandsail.liteboat.fr/boats/litexp/

Rober Mann is sailing one in this year’s R2AK if you want to check it out first hand.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The weights I define do NOT included gear and consumables beyond sailing and rowing gear.  I expect my current design would be around 200 lbs, though perhaps a little more or less depending on what I decide about storage arrangements including access.  This includes the boat itself, daggerboard, rudder, spars, sails, sliding-seat rowing system and small solar power system to run electronics (20 watts).  I believe this boat could be capable of crossing oceans IF I ever decide I want to do that.  And, as always, at this point it's experimental.  Assuming I go ahead with it, the process will include: finalize initial design (probably on the minimalist side), build, equip (initially using things I already have: spars, sails, rigging, sliding-seat rowing gear, etc.), test (starting with simple day use, extending to short cruises, building up to very extended island and coastal cruising for months or years at a time), modify and further develop on the basis of experience (this would definitely include new, professionally made sails).  If all this happens as I can imagine it, I believe the result would be a boat under 300 lbs (including sail & row gear and solar power system)  that would be capable of making some ocean passages, probably of sailing around the world.

Initial construction will be stitch & glue using top-end marine Okume.  IF I eventually come to consider it worthwhile I might have one built from high-tech materials and techniques (carbon, kevlar, injection molding, etc.) and if that were successful it might become commercially available - a very small, niche market.

Yes, I'm familiar with Liteboat, including their latest row/sail boat.  Interesting boat, excellent for its intended use, but I do not consider it adequate for the sort of extended cruising I have in mind, nor for blue water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, ScotDomergue said:

The weights I define do NOT included gear and consumables beyond sailing and rowing gear.  I expect my current design would be around 200 lbs, though perhaps a little more or less depending on what I decide about storage arrangements including access.  This includes the boat itself, daggerboard, rudder, spars, sails, sliding-seat rowing system and small solar power system to run electronics (20 watts).  I believe this boat could be capable of crossing oceans IF I ever decide I want to do that.  And, as always, at this point it's experimental.  Assuming I go ahead with it, the process will include: finalize initial design (probably on the minimalist side), build, equip (initially using things I already have: spars, sails, rigging, sliding-seat rowing gear, etc.), test (starting with simple day use, extending to short cruises, building up to very extended island and coastal cruising for months or years at a time), modify and further develop on the basis of experience (this would definitely include new, professionally made sails).  If all this happens as I can imagine it, I believe the result would be a boat under 300 lbs (including sail & row gear and solar power system)  that would be capable of making some ocean passages, probably of sailing around the world.

Initial construction will be stitch & glue using top-end marine Okume.  IF I eventually come to consider it worthwhile I might have one built from high-tech materials and techniques (carbon, kevlar, injection molding, etc.) and if that were successful it might become commercially available - a very small, niche market.

Yes, I'm familiar with Liteboat, including their latest row/sail boat.  Interesting boat, excellent for its intended use, but I do not consider it adequate for the sort of extended cruising I have in mind, nor for blue water.

Did you see this suggestion in the other thread? A Skate 15

upwind2.jpg

15'x8' ~400lbs, not including 250lbs water ballast which can be left empty.

I'd dubious about a boat like the above and the Liteboat XP in rough weather, coming off a wave and landing bottom-up, and staying that way. Would be a bummer. OTOH ballast on the end of a fin, to lever right-side-up again, adds to the weight and the stress on the structure.

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Did you see this suggestion in the other thread? A Skate 15

upwind2.jpg

15'x8' ~400lbs, not including 250lbs water ballast which can be left empty.

I'd dubious about a boat like the above and the Liteboat XP in rough weather, coming off a wave and landing bottom-up, and staying that way. Would be a bummer. OTOH ballast on the end of a fin, to lever right-side-up again, adds to the weight and the stress on the structure.

FB- Doug

Hey Scott thats my boat... Turn Point Design.  Next time you are in PT I can take you out for a sail.  It dosnt check all your boxes but may help give you some ideas for your next boat.

All the best

Brandon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, foiledagain said:

Im a huge fan of Colin Angus RowCruiser and the Liteboat models...really nicely thought out boats that apeal to rowing enthusiasts.  

Yep, it's very difficult to get a boat that both sails and rows decently....... generally some degree of fudge-making around the definition of "decently."

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting boat.  Brandon, are you considering R2AK in this one?  Big enough for 2 people for that distance?  Seems Felix is more competitive.  I'd love to go out with you next time I'm in PT!

My current design isn't intended to be nearly so high-performance, but it should be self-righting when properly loaded with sails and perhaps spars stowed below - a bit like an ocean rowing boat.  If out on the ocean with conditions getting really bad, riding to drogue, this would provide a significant margin of safety.  In less extreme conditions her 1-person crew should be able to bring her back upright easily with sails up - as was the case with my Marsh Duck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Yep, it's very difficult to get a boat that both sails and rows decently....... generally some degree of fudge-making around the definition of "decently."

FB- Doug

So true!  Always compromise!  I enjoyed rowing my Marsh Duck loaded to 700 lbs. displacement at 3.5 to 4 knots for extended periods.  She was also fun to sail and would go 7 knots (over theoretical hull speed) fairly easily.  That's my current benchmark for doing both "decently".  I think my current design would be close on rowing and would be a little more stable and plane more easily. 

I think the Angus sail-row-cruiser is excellent on this combination, but have decided that I don't want the complexity, weight and stresses inherent in a multi-hull.  I expect that the newest Liteboat is also quite good, though, again, not up to the sort of cruising I have in mind, let alone crossing oceans.  I think my current design may be comparable in rowing/sailing performance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep in mind that I'm not all that interested in racing, rather in cruising using both sail and rowing.  Sailing boats designed for racing need to go very fast, well beyond hull speed.  They need big sail rigs and need to be wide and have significant weight as low as possible to stand up to those rigs - these micros (max about 18 feet LOA) are 8 feet wide and draft just over 3 1/2 feet.  Max sail area for the micros, main plus jib, is almost 260 square feet, not counting spinnakker (up to an additional 211 sqft), on a tall mast.  All this results in large forces pushing in opposite directions, needing great strength in the construction of the boat and resulting in greater weight.

For the performance I want, none of this is needed and the stresses are much less: 4 to 5 knots in light winds, 6 to 10 knots in stronger winds.  Light wind sails might go up to 150 square feet, but will probably be reduced to no more than 100 to 120 sq in winds above 10 or 12 knots (when the fast racing boats are just getting going!).  Less beam is better for performance rowing or in very light winds, while more beam is better for increased load carrying and spacial comfort (as well as greater speed in higher winds).  My current designs are 16 feet long and range from 36 to 66 inches beam.  The beam I'll want (perhaps 44 inches?) is mainly determined by the need for a comfortable cabin with gear and supplies easily accessible.  I believe that this beam, combined with appropriate hull shape, will provide fun sailing with adequate stability.  This relatively narrow beam facilitates self-righting and righting by crew.  Adequate hull strength is easily achieved with very light construction.  The strength to resist impact damage is more challenging.  Beam of 66 inches would allow mounting oarlocks on the hull rather than on outriggers as well as making it easier to hike out.  Even at this beam, hull strength would be easily achieved.

So, while the micros, mini-trans-at's and Skate 15 are interesting, they provide quite limited information related to my interests.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you looked at the RoG? A little heavier than you want but lots of great ideas. That’s what I plan to build.

 

bedardyachtdesign.com

0AC632BC-FAC0-4FF7-8CC2-8E807D325235.jpeg

265AB55C-EF9E-4A78-9CA7-4268E4D5C304.jpeg

C1145445-30B3-4E92-944D-12388B409D1A.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I sailed about 30 miles in company with ROG last spring. Cool little boat and sailed really well upwind in 20 knots and a nasty chop.  Prolly best for one person.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, ScotDomergue said:

Interesting boat.  Brandon, are you considering R2AK in this one?  Big enough for 2 people for that distance?  Seems Felix is more competitive.  I'd love to go out with you next time I'm in PT!

My current design isn't intended to be nearly so high-performance, but it should be self-righting when properly loaded with sails and perhaps spars stowed below - a bit like an ocean rowing boat.  If out on the ocean with conditions getting really bad, riding to drogue, this would provide a significant margin of safety.  In less extreme conditions her 1-person crew should be able to bring her back upright easily with sails up - as was the case with my Marsh Duck.

Hi Scott, Looking forward to see what you build!

A couple sailors will be taking the Skate in this years R2AK -- first leg to Victoria.  -- and I will be doing the Barefoot Raid in the Skate in August with my family.  Its a fun and stable little cruiser...not nearly as fast as Felix...but very quick to rig with lots of interior room.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, buck said:

http://www.barefootraid.net/

Mothership with food? That sounds fairly civilized.

It should be a lot of fun! I'm not sure the number of boats they will limit this to but so far there are 16 great teams signed up.  Usually pretty light winds that time of year so human power could be vital and also the ability to enjoy some great beaches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/28/2018 at 4:55 PM, foiledagain said:

 

A couple sailors will be taking the Skate in this years R2AK -- first leg to Victoria.  -- and I will be doing the Barefoot Raid in the Skate in August with my family.  Its a fun and stable little cruiser...not nearly as fast as Felix...but very quick to rig with lots of interior room.

Brandon, what is the beam on the Skate 15?  Approach to human power?  Speed for human power in calm conditions (extended, not sprint)?

I can imagine getting to PT sometime late March or after.  I look forward to seeing interior and storage - and various other.

Do you think she'd be adequate for minimalist blue water?  Looks as though there is potential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Scot,

The beam on Skate is 8' and she carries a lot of that width at the waterline too... so really a hull shape meant to maximize righting moment and downwind performance.  To sail upwind efficiently (or downwind in light air) you need to heel the boat 15 to 20 degree, and sail it on its chine with an eye towards getting weight forward to release the transom and reduce the wetted surface area.  

We will be installing a pedal power unit before R2AK...setup so that we pedal from one side and heeled.

See you in Late March... let me know a couple days before so that I can be sure to get away from work.

She wasn't designed for Blue Water... but a lot of thought went into making the boat as safe as a little boat can be... there is a watertight hatch for the companion way instead of the usual hatch board setup, an escape hatch aft if the boat gets fully inverted, multiple water tight compartments, and a collision bulkhead.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

28471838_2058983954144352_12009671883414 This boat weighs less than your target, including all gear and food for a couple of weeks it will take to circumnavigate Florida. The boat has three modes: sailing; kayak; on the road (a 40 mile portage). I don't have any pictures of it going down the road. Follow it in the EC2018 thread. Lots of applicable ideas in the boats created for the Everglades Challenge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, foiledagain said:

Hi Scot,

The beam on Skate is 8' and she carries a lot of that width at the waterline too... so really a hull shape meant to maximize righting moment and downwind performance.  To sail upwind efficiently (or downwind in light air) you need to heel the boat 15 to 20 degree, and sail it on its chine with an eye towards getting weight forward to release the transom and reduce the wetted surface area.  

We will be installing a pedal power unit before R2AK...setup so that we pedal from one side and heeled.

See you in Late March... let me know a couple days before so that I can be sure to get away from work.

She wasn't designed for Blue Water... but a lot of thought went into making the boat as safe as a little boat can be... there is a watertight hatch for the companion way instead of the usual hatch board setup, an escape hatch aft if the boat gets fully inverted, multiple water tight compartments, and a collision bulkhead.

 

Very interesting.  I look forward to a close look, and to seeing the pedal power arrangement once that's ready.

I'll let you know as my travel plans develop.  In any case, I'll have plenty of flexibility to work around your schedule and convenience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/2/2018 at 9:49 PM, foiledagain said:

here is another picture that shows some of those details

upwind1.jpg

Do you have anymore pics? that boat looks awesome, and exactly the kind of boat I'd be interested in. interior pics as well! Do you have a website?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 25/02/2017 at 10:26 PM, Crooked Beat said:
On 23/02/2017 at 3:00 PM, WGWarburton said:

Hi,

E-boat? Proven transats. Designed 1976, still being made in Italy.

 

http://www.rlmr.co.uk/E-Boats/

 

..or an Etap?

 

Cheers,

W.

Intrigued by this E-Boat. I have not seen one in the US North East, but I wasn't looking either. Almost like a J24 prototype

Came across this link:

http://minitransat650.com/leov/html/e_boat_1979.html

 

 Don't think the OP is going down this road any more but thought there might be some interest.

 Many of these were built in Scotland. Design by Julian Everitt (who also designed the half-tonner I have).

 More of a big dinghy than a cruiser but a capable design, as evident from the above. Not sure I'd want to row one, though! :-)

Cheers,

               W.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wilderness 21?

Seriously, Moore 24 really ticks all the boxes. Might fail the "flashlight test" but I would suggest the Moore 24 are rather proven.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Youd be hard pressed to get more bang for your buck than a Cal25.  Not too bad offshore in a blow either...draco04.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now